Ambitious Women Must Overcome The Need To Be Liked ft. Vuyiswa M'Cwabeni

Summary

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Podcast Summary: To My Sisters – "Ambitious Women Must Overcome The Need To Be Liked" ft. Vuyiswa M’Cwabeni

Date: April 26, 2026
Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku Imafidon
Guest: Vuyiswa M’Cwabeni

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Overview

In this enriching episode of To My Sisters, Courtney and Renée are joined by Vuyiswa M’Cwabeni — former tech CEO, entrepreneur, investor, and women’s wellness advocate. Together, they discuss the multifaceted journey of ambitious women: from navigating personal reinvention and intentional trade-offs to wrestling with guilt, prioritizing self-awareness, and ultimately overcoming the exhausting need to be liked. Vuyiswa shares wisdom from her own career, family life, and inner evolution, providing a candid look into what it truly takes to "be that girl" in both public and private arenas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power and Process of Reinvention

• Embracing Life’s Pivots ([03:19]–[08:04]):
  • Vuyiswa details her journey across industries (tech, fintech, wellness) and phases of self-reinvention, emphasizing it’s an ongoing process.
    • "I'm just very much a work in progress. It's not changing and the story is not done." – Vuyiswa ([03:19])
  • Reinventing oneself often means letting go of old labels and embracing new visions for life, sometimes by choice but often by necessity.
    • "There are some pivots which you choose… and there's others that are forced upon you... But there's a point where you just surrender." – Vuyiswa ([06:04])
  • Clarity of vision enables brave first steps during uncertainty.
    • "I wasn't certain, but I had enough information or my gut told me enough, my faith told me enough that I could take steps 1, 2, and 3, and the rest would come." – Vuyiswa ([07:57])

2. Juggling Responsibilities and Ruthless Prioritization

• Trade-Offs in Ambition ([08:38]–[13:43]):
  • Vuyiswa candidly discusses managing competing roles—career, motherhood, marriage—by setting clear priorities and recognizing that imbalance is sometimes inevitable.
    • "When I've had to be fully present at work, I have been fully present at work. But with that decision, I then let other things go completely to the wayside." ([09:16])
  • This ruthlessness in priorities comes at a cost—missed moments with children, lost friendships.
    • "I lost a lot of friends because we didn't share the same vision for our life... But I also maintained my core, just became really smaller." ([11:12])
  • Being honest with her children about her availability and what her motherhood looks like.
    • "I'm not going to be there a lot. I won't be like the other moms, but I can do this: X, Y, Z." ([09:16])

3. Guilt, External Opinions & Cultural Context

• Dealing with Guilt and Social Judgment ([13:43]–[19:05]):
  • Vuyiswa reflects on moments when her choices impacted her children, such as her daughter mirroring her workplace aggression or processing a friend’s struggles with absent parents.
    • "She was speaking to her dolls... 'You need to be quiet. I'm on a conference call.' That aggression is what she sees every single day because I worked seven days a week." ([14:04])
  • Guilt is real, but she checks in constantly with her family, trusting their shared understanding of her goals.
  • She stresses the importance of filtering out "noise" (unimportant outside opinions), especially as a Black woman in Germany navigating unique contexts:
    • "Too many times people are so focused on the noise... It takes energy. Those are the true energy vampires... Other people's thoughts of me just haven't been important." ([17:49])
  • On cultural specificity:
    • "As a black woman living in Germany, my context is completely different. What I needed was completely different." ([17:27])

4. The Journey to Radical Self-Awareness

• Self-Perception, Adaptation & Risk ([19:05]–[26:05]):
  • Vuyiswa traces her self-awareness to growing up as the only Black person in white environments, requiring hyper-attunement and adaptability.
    • "As a black woman who grew up in white environments, we must be self-aware to another level." ([20:35])
  • Openness to lifelong learning and high risk-tolerance have propelled her career mobility and resilience.
    • "I've always tried to put myself in the shoes of others, especially as you're going up the corporate ladder." ([23:46])

5. The Challenge & Liberation of Likeability

• Likeability vs. Kindness ([26:05]–[30:45]):
  • Vuyiswa distinguishes between being liked and being kind, noting that relentless likability is "exhausting," especially as an ambitious woman.
    • "If I decide to play likeability, I can do it, but I do sometimes find it exhausting." ([26:44])
  • She prioritizes kindness over superficial niceness.
    • "Sometimes a kindness is delivering a very hard message... you help someone to be better. That is a kindness." ([27:29])
  • On people pleasing:
    • "You can’t be everything to everyone." ([30:45])

6. Recovering from Perfectionism and Embracing Messiness

• Rejecting Perfection ([30:58]–[38:13]):
  • Vuyiswa admits she’s a recovering perfectionist—something that served her in the corporate world but became toxic in entrepreneurship.
    • "Perfectionism is deadly... it will cripple you." ([30:58])
  • She now values progress and vulnerability over an immaculate facade, both at home and in life’s messier chapters.
    • "I think I've had to learn to accept the messiness... and the messiness that comes with life and aging." ([31:50])
  • Aging, health scares, and professional failures have shifted her perspective:
    • "I met the worst version of myself... But I also met the strongest version, the one that got up." ([36:32])

7. Building Systems for Thriving: Family, Community & Faith

• Intentional Relationships ([39:20]–[46:11]):
  • At the heart of Vuyiswa’s life systems is her marriage, underpinned by annual written vision letters and relentless communication.
    • "Every January, we write each other a letter about our vision for the relationship, our vision as individuals, and our vision for our family." ([39:49])
  • Trusted friendships, described as "ride or die," form her broader support network.
    • "For each of my children, [my best friend] was in the delivery unit with my husband... That’s my ride or die." ([42:11])
  • Lifelong learning ("student for life") keeps her adaptable and growth-oriented.
• Faith as a Foundation ([44:43]–[46:11]):
  • Her relationship with God has provided purpose, clarity, and resilience, especially in counterbalancing external pressures.
    • "If I am going to be sitting in that room... [and] it is what He ordained, then why do I need to be worrying about what someone else is even thinking about?" ([44:43])

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Notable Quotes

• On success and being yourself:

  • "There are so many different paths towards success and you can be the woman you're called to be, whether people like it or not." – Courtney ([01:04] & [48:37])

• On prioritization and energy:

  • "You have to be truly ruthless so that you can… balance that energy." – Vuyiswa ([11:51])

• On likability:

  • "Your competency actually means nothing [after a certain level]; it's about likeability… But I will never be one of the guys." ([27:29])

• On perfectionism:

  • "Perfectionism… will cripple you… I think I've had to learn to accept the messiness that comes with life and aging." ([30:58])

• On relationships as systems:

  • "Any successful person, however you define success, it hasn't happened alone. It has been done with your community, your tribe, whatever you want to call it." ([39:37])

• On faith:

  • "My relationship with God… helped the structure and helped like an energy." ([45:01])

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Memorable Moments

• Vuyiswa’s children parodying her conference call work persona ([14:04])
• Her son defending her to teachers about bake sales ([09:16])
• Annual vision-letter tradition with her husband ([39:49])
• Reflection on surviving a major corporate scandal ([36:32])

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment / Topic | |-----------|----------------| | 03:19–05:12 | Vuyiswa’s journey and reinvention | | 06:04–08:01 | Embracing pivots; clarity of vision | | 09:16–11:51 | Ruthless priorities; family & friendships trade-offs | | 13:43–17:49 | Dealing with guilt and outside opinions; energy vampires | | 20:35–23:46 | Developing self-awareness as a survival skill | | 26:44–30:45 | Likeability vs kindness; recovering people-pleaser/perfectionist | | 31:50–38:13 | Embracing messiness; growth from setbacks | | 39:20–46:11 | Marriage, friendship, learning, and faith as thriving systems |

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a potent guide for ambitious women wrestling with the impulse to please, the pressure to appear perfect, and the realities of trading off between ambition and other responsibilities. Vuyiswa M’Cwabeni’s honest reflections remind listeners that thriving is less about balance and more about intentional priorities, authentic relationships, personal growth, and the ability to ignore the noise from those who do not walk in your shoes.

Final wisdom:
You can be the woman you're called to be—whether people like it or not.
“We as women can also be ruthless with the things that we want and… in our execution on the pursuit to get it.” – Renée ([46:23])

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Where to Find Vuyiswa

• Instagram: @vuyiswa.mcwabeni
• Cosmetic line: Magaly and Me (Instagram)

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Share this episode with a sister who needs to "ruthlessly eliminate people pleasing and perfectionism." Stay glowing and growing!

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

There are so many different paths towards success and you can be the woman you're called to be, whether people like it or not.

[C]

As a black woman who grew up in white environments, we must be self aware to another level.

[B]

You strike me as a woman who doesn't care much for female fitting in.

[C]

Other people's thoughts of me just haven't been important.

[D]

Wow, that's really interesting.

[C]

Too many times people are so focused on the noise. It takes energy.

[B]

How you came to be the woman that you are.

[C]

I met the worst version of myself. I was parred or caught up in a large corporate scandal on the work front.

[D]

It's definitely given us so much to

[C]

think about and it can only come from being worthless. Rubbing the look ladies.

[B]

It means so much coming from you.

[D]

Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.

[B]

I'm Courtney.

[C]

And I'm Vuiswa. Oh, how beautiful.

[D]

And we are your online sisters and hosts of the 2 My Sisters podcast.

[B]

We are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters around the world. And in today's episode we are joined by a woman who who is doing it all literally. And I'll put that label on you for real. I think somebody who has succeeded in corporate, succeeding in entrepreneurship, venturing into the women's wellness space. I think you host a lot of achievements but we want to know the woman behind it all and how you actually built this life where we can actually term and title you that girl. Because vswa, you are that girl. Let me Tell you that. Thank you. The little that we' gotten to know about you over time, and I actually recently watched your episode with one of our girls, Lame Day Elizabeth, on her building Loss Without Borders podcast.

[C]

That was a lot of fun.

[B]

It looked like it. And I think in that episode, you were really, you know, talking from your corporate expertise, building wealth. But we here on 2 my sisters are all about the woman who is building. Right. So how can you tell the ladies a bit more about who you are and how you came to be the woman that you are?

[C]

So let's start who I am. And I first say I'm just very much a work in progress. It's not changing, and the story is not done. If I was to go to the labels that have or define me, I could basically say that I'm a former tech CEO and now an entrepreneur, an investor, and an advisor. And I've really worked or tried to work at the Intersect between technology, leadership, and transformation. This is kind of where my work has been. And I've done it across all different types of industries. Right. Where it started in software, it went into fiction, fintech, back into, like, software and deep tech, and now being in the beauty and kind of the wellness space. Yeah. So it's kind of gone full journey, but I think it's been a journey that has also been marked with. And I. I hate the term sometimes, but reinvention, where. Where you had to reimagine what life and who you could be. Right. I'm almost 48 years old and crazy, you know, along the way, where you suddenly look in the mirror and you're like, who is that? And I think when you. You can actually verbalize and say. And so that's when suddenly those labels that I talked about before just become so important. You hold on to them, and sometimes you see that some of those labels don't fit anymore. And so like I said, it's a work. It's a work in progress.

[B]

That's good. That is good. I wanted to touch on that. You said this really amazing word for us in this season, reinvention. Like, we've come back to the podcast. New season, new look, new energy, and

[C]

I'm loving the look.

[B]

Ladies, so much coming from you. Thank you.

[D]

Gotta put that compliment in my back perfectly.

[B]

Who. But no, reinvention is a big thing for women. Right. Different life stages from getting married, having children, new job, new role, pivoting all of these different things. Aging. How have you. Yeah. How have you embraced seasons of reinvention when you can sense Inside of you, okay, I can sense a pivot coming in my career, or I can sense a new version of vswap hearing. How do you deal with those seasons? What goes on in your mind?

[C]

And I think you. You raised. How do you embrace? So right now, I. I've gone back a lot to the scripture, and I've gone to the scripture of around obedience. I didn't always embrace those pivots. And I think when we look at one's life, there are some pivots which you choose the time has come, and there's others that are forced upon you and where you fight it. Right. Because you just hold on to the past. But I think there's a point where when you do say that embrace or that surrender, I think what is very, very important or what has guided me is being able to orientate, saying, what is the vision for my life? Right? Because when you have a very clear vision, when you can see it, like, you can feel it, right? You can say, this is the vision that I have. And you could almost say, I already have it. It's just there. I just have to take it. I think that is what has helped. Then blink clarity, because you have that vision, and then you have the clarity to understand, well, then what are the next 1, 2, 3 steps do I actually take? And I think often it's that gap that people are ready to take steps, but the vision is not clear enough for them. And, of course, there can always be a paralysis. And I have sometimes when I've had to take those big steps, there's always question, okay, how were you so certain? I wasn't certain. Right. I wasn't certain, but I had enough information or my gut told me enough, my faith told me enough that I could take steps 1, 2, and 3, and the rest would come.

[B]

That's good. That's so beautiful.

[D]

I love your approach to that. Because I think, as Courtney mentioned, so many of us have struggled with really embracing newness and embracing a change that isn't set by the tune of our own drum beat. Right. Something that's forced upon us or something that just comes as a result of getting older. You know, we find ourselves in different circumstances, different places, different spaces, different relationships. In terms of your experience through life, one of the things that we also tend to experience is additional responsibilities.

[B]

Right.

[D]

As we get older, there's new responsibilities, there's new things that are calling us, and it can sometimes feel like it's almost stacking on top of each other. Right. So how do you approach the stacking up of responsibilities like being and having to show up in so many different areas of your life. Tech CEO, moving to entrepreneur, being a mother, being a wife, and showing up in some of these different areas that can sometimes feel like they're competing. How have you approached the additionalities or rather the new things that are coming that have come in your life over time?

[C]

I haven't done very well. I haven't done very well, I have to say. Maybe I put a lot of people ask me, how do you find that balance? And I haven't been able to. Or I'm still working on finding that balance. I think there's a different time or different season and you set different priorities. So when I've had to be fully present at work, I have been fully present at work. But with that decision, I then let other things go completely to the wayside. So I don't cook. I maybe have dinner with my children two times a week. I miss a lot because I went after this career. But at the same time, when I am home with my children, I'm 100% in with my children and 100% present with my children because I also don't have that overhead. I'm not expected to cook. I'm not expected to clean that house. But I have struggled all the way. Right? So it's. How do you become the boss? I could function very well as the boss. How do you become like, the mom? I had to be very clear with my kids. I'm not going to be there a lot. I won't be like the other moms, but I can do this. X, Y, Z, Right. I had to laugh at one point with my son. He was explaining to my teacher, my mom will not bake for this. You know, the bake fair. And no, my mom will not come to the bakes fair and sell cookies. She has better things to do with her time. Right? Like, so he was advocating for me in that context. You can make these. Set these priorities very easily. But when you look into friendships, I lost a lot of friendships along the way. You know when your Girls call you 1, 2, 3 times and then you, you cancel at the last minute, they're like, she's just unreliable. You know how she is. And I lot. A lot of friends because we didn't share the same vision for our life. They couldn't understand why I couldn't be there. Like, come on, girl. Like, just, just, it's no big deal. I'm like, yes, I have to do this, right? And so I lost a lot of friends But I also maintained my core just became really smaller. About those who really understood what I was trying to do and were willing to support me in that. I have no really good answer for it because I just think it's that you have to be ruthless, truly ruthless in how you then set those priorities to ensure that that imbalance doesn't happen. And that imbalance will come. It will come. And when it does, you just have to be truly ruthless so that you can. I always call it, like, for me, a big thing right now is energy. How do I balance that energy? And it can only come from being ruthless. And I just wish that I had learned that much earlier. Yeah, right. And it wouldn't have been such heavy lifting maybe along the way. For me.

[B]

That's good. I get. Especially because I guess energy, like time is not infinite. Right. We are limited human beings and so we have to pick and choose where we put our energy and what we allow to have our capacity. So then leaning more into that, I think my thing is twofold. Because when you make ruthless decisions, as you describe them, around motherhood and around friendships, in pursuit of your career, two things might arise. And I want to know how you navigate those two things. The first being guilt. Guilt around, you know, I think, yeah, guilt around. Oh, I wish I could show up in this way, but I. I've maybe missed certain moments. But then the other is opinions. Opinions people may have about your choices. And I can imagine people even listening to this may be thinking like, oh, but you know, why can't you cook the cookies? You just equip back your cookies for your son to take to school. Or your friends might be thinking, why can't you just do a two minute text back? Like, what does that say about who you are? How do you deal with guilt and people's opinions about the ruthless decisions you've made?

[C]

Yeah. Do you know, I remember, but maybe it was just before COVID and my little daughter, she was on the terrace and I was inside and I was just listening to her play and she was with her dolls and she was like, you need to be. She was speaking to her dolls and it was insane. Such a tone that was so aggressive for a six year old. That was like, you need to be quiet. I'm on a conference call. And I thought she can only speak like that because she's heard that before. Right? Like it. She's heard it from somewhere and she's only mirroring what she is heard from and seen from me. And I thought that aggression is what she sees Every single day because I worked seven days a week and I thought, oh my God, fast forward. She just turned 13 last week and one of her closest friends, who I've known since the first grade we found out was anorexic or was having an eating disorder and was cutting herself. How is that possible? Right? And she said, well, her parents are both doctors. Her dad had a doctor at a hospital and her parents are never home and they're always working. And that's just so hard for someone. And it had to be like, Milan, that's us. Like, do you think, like that's the same about us? And she didn't want to hurt my feelings. She didn't want to hurt my feelings.

[D]

But.

[C]

And then I didn't push it, right? Because, you know, she was uncomfortable. And I said to my husband, like, oh my God, right? We made a very concrete decision and my husband fully supported and I said, this is what I'm going to do. And I had the full support. And it wasn't just my husband, it was my mother in law, my family, the machine and how we were going to live. And I often felt like the decision that we had made was the right one for our family. But Suddenly, like my 13 year old is mirroring back to me then maybe it hadn't been so easy, maybe it hadn't been as good as I thought. Right to the point, like, you know, you have to start. Are you cutting yourself? Do you having. No, I don't, Mama. But still I had to then have that conversation to explain why I needed that career for me, why that was so important for me and how I saw myself and what I wanted to achieve. And for many years it was from my parents, it was many years for my husband and my legacy and my children. But I'll say now my career is very much for me. And she was like, I know, mama, and that's why I love you. But still, you know, you'd heard those that. And I think it's important as mothers that you then check in all the time, right? Check in to get that pulse. Is it still okay? Are we still okay? And sometimes it's not. And that guilt is real. And that guilt, but at the same time, and I think it's like you said, falling under the pressure or the narrative from others. I never actually felt that pressure. People are always going to talk, they're always going to have their own story. But I always found out a few things, especially as like a black woman living in Germany. My context is completely different. What I needed Was completely different. When I lay in bed, who is going to be there? And I was like, that's me. And the man that sits, sleeps beside me, my husband. And we're aligned. And that is all. That is enough. And my maker. And that is all. That was enough for me. Right. So I've actually been very good. And I think this is something that has served me is you need to differentiate, differentiate between signal and noise. Too many times people are so focused on the noise and it distracts, it takes energy. It's that those are the true vampire energies, the vampire energy, vampires that we have in life. And the big signals. Yeah, we're just, we're missing them. And, and I think for me, I've been. When you talked about that ruthlessness, it also comes signal versus noise. And so other people's thoughts of me just haven't been important to the point that I also realized many people then perceive me sometimes as arrogant because it was like, you can, you can run your mouth, you can have your opinion, but it, it doesn't matter for me.

[B]

That's good.

[D]

That's really. Wow, that's really interesting. And I think what is really wonderful to hear from the way that you speak is that you are incredibly self aware.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And self. And I say this genuinely as a compliment because self awareness is often something that we have to work on.

[C]

Yeah, right.

[D]

Like it's not something that we are necessarily born with.

[B]

And for a lot of us, we

[D]

go and we live our lives without understanding how we are perceived. But even more importantly, as you mentioned, making the distinction between what is a signal and what is a noise, I think it does require a certain level of self awareness to be able to make that distinguish, to be able to distinguish between the two. And I think it's wonderful that you actually have that capability. And I also think it's interesting that you're aware that people perceive you in this particular way. But I would love to know, have you always been like this or the vise word that we see today? Is this something that you've developed over time? And what has it taken to get to that woman that you are today where you are comfortable, you are confident, but you're also very, very self aware of the decisions that you've decided to make between yourself, your family, your community that you've also mentioned that has been really partly your anchor in these decisions. How did you get to becoming this version of yourself? And was there a version of yourself before this version that needed to do the work to get to this version?

[C]

I would say, as a black woman who grew up in white environments, we must be self aware to another level, right? And that self awareness, you walk into a room, you need to clock the room to figure it out what is the vibe, what is happening and not adjust, but orientate yourself as to what's happening. And so I think I have always had that feeling. I've just always known where I've had to ask myself. I remember I did not go to school with a single black person until university.

[D]

Wow.

[C]

Of course I was always in Africa, I was always the continent, always my family. But it required that self awareness for myself because I'm also a chameleon, right? You can put me anywhere and I can go, I will say because I what is very important for me of value has always been like student for life, right? And so with that student for life, it was always like, I'm always going to be learning in this world and I'm always going to grow and develop. On top of that, I have a very, very high, low risk to. I know, very high risk tolerance, right. I'm not. I have no problem to take risk. And so because of that,

[E]

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[A]

The to do list doesn't stop and neither does the pressure to keep up with it if you've been running on fumes. Growtherapy makes it easier to find care that's covered by insurance and actually built around you, whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th. Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can Cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growththerapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[C]

I have no problem to kind of just put myself out there. And it's something that I've always been very clear in thought. Right. There's always that fuzziness. That's just not what happened. It was always a clarity for me of like, okay, what is it I'm going to do? This is the goal, this is what I want. Let me move forward. Of course there's times where you're like, oh, we have to pivot, we have to earn. But I've been always someone who was able to very quickly reorient and then move forward. Right. I. And yeah, so this is something that I've never struggled with. I don't know, maybe I don't know this. Do I have a self awareness? It's just a thing that I've always had. Yeah. And I think because for me, one of the things I realized is I always have tried to put my shoes, shoes myself in the shoes of others. Right. And how they then would perceive and especially as, you know, you're going up the corporate ladder. And I remember I was in, in Germany at this point and I wore cufflinks and I was in an interview and and I had all of my shirts had my initials on them and I had these cufflinks and they were like, you know, at the analyst level, people don't wear cufflinks and like you're mammogrammed. And I'm like, I do. Right. And he was like, yeah, but that's a no go. And that's when I realized that self consciousness that I could just be naive because I wasn't bound by these rules of Germany necessarily. Because you could always be like, oh, she's that dumb foreigner. But at the same time, like when I came in, first thing, the interviewers, beautiful cufflinks. Thank you. Right. And so I often use this clarity of self assurance throughout my career and often it would be I could get the past because I was other. Right. She showed that they're like, that they're very confident. Right. Like, and so it. So I would just you be naive in it and perceiving it but being very clear in like who I am and what I am. So I think I've just, yeah, it's come along the way I love that.

[B]

I love that. I think you strike me as a woman and correct me if I'm wrong, who doesn't care much for fitting in or like, I'd be interested to know your relationship with being liked, the idea of being liked, because I think there's a lot of women who are in the sisterhood. I think we can relate at certain seasons of our lives or in certain places where we're like, I'm battling being maybe my true self or being my ambitious self or just my fullest self and being, wanting to be liked, wanting to be accepted, wanting to be understood. Right. How do you. What is your relationship with that?

[C]

Yeah, I think this is such a great question because this likeability factor I always find interesting. And if I decide to play likeability, I can do it, but I do sometimes find it exhausting. I do find it exhausting. There's that likability. But I also like to where people have to understand and this is where I've been talking to my children a great deal lately about. It's about being nice and kindness and too often it's the likability to be nice, right. I think when I look in the UK culture, they're always so nice. Yeah. But I'm like, you guys, what is nice? It's about being kindness. And sometimes a kindness is delivering a very hard message. Maybe it's not such a nice message, but you help someone to be better. That is a kindness. And so this likability, I often in, in the work I always had a very high likeability, right? Because I also found out this is so important in your corporate life, likability, after a certain level your competency actually means nothing. It's about likability, right. And how can, can you see yourself sitting down and on 8 hour plane with this person, right? This is how like some assessments start being made. And I think it's important. And like I said, I came back, right? And it was like the arrogance in her that this and that. And so for me, I really spent a lot of time to make myself paluable, right. How can I make myself that it can work enough, right? Because it was like, I don't know, does she have to likeability. I'm not one of the guys and I'll never be one of the guys. But I think as I come back to the point again about this nice and kindness and this is where I've really right now with my kids. But it's what I focus on in life, right? I'm here for you all the time. But it's about doing a kindness. And this is where I think we need to do more and better as a sisterhood together with each other.

[B]

It's about kindness. I remember having a conversation with Adela, Adela Rafadi, who's one of our friends, and she's been on the podcast before and I was at her house and she was telling me, you know, she was doing a lot of research into this likability thing for women, especially as an overcoming over recovering people pleaser.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And she was talking about how there needs to be a distinction between being nice and being kind. And some of the kindest people are not nice. And sometimes even in our niceness, we're avoiding doing the kind thing. So I think that's something that you've really, really highlighted that actually if we just strive to be kind, which is a very virtuous property, we don't necessarily have to come across as nice to people and then rate us as such. I think that's a really great distinction for women who can tend to lean into the people pleasing tendency. I think what would be interesting and

[C]

I think also to the people pleasing. Right. It's, it's exhausting. And I think because of where I came, like when you're working the 40, 50, 60 hour week, then you come home and you have a family, this. I just did not have time for that. Right. I did not have time for that. I often wish I had a bit more of that trait in me. Like I often wish, but it was like, I just don't have time for that. I just, it cannot be. And so, you know, I just, I was like, I wish I could have done it, but it's like I just didn't have. You only have so much energy. And my life had to be controlled and balanced and like I said, a ruthlessness to it where. Yeah, you can't be everything to everyone.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Right. And because I think a lot of those, as she's a recovering people pleaser, I wasn't a people pleaser, but I was. I'm a recovering perfectionist.

[A]

Right.

[C]

This, this quest for perfectionism, you can then end up being miserable. Right. This is a very dangerous thing. And in corporate it was, it excelled. It was the great thing. There was the quality of my work. Right. In developing teams and what we did then I moved shift into like entrepreneurship. Perfectionism is deadly. Right. It will cripple you. Right. And. But I also then had to learn, you know, I'd come in and I love flowers. And I love flowers. All over the house. And it had to be perfect. The house had to be perfect. The garden had to be perfect. And I didn't necessarily do it for other. But that I could sit there drinking my tea and being like, I did this, right?

[A]

But it's.

[C]

It's. It's deadly and it's. And it's exhausting. And it was like, as I said, I'm a recovering. I think the only person that gets a bit unleashed on is my husband. When I see those socks in the bathroom, and I'm like, right. I hear, like. But this, I think, for me was the people pleaser was never. But it's this perfectionism and then feeling like the perfectionism was needed in every asset. And I think I've had to learn to accept the messiness, whether it's in my bathroom floor, but also the messiness that comes with life and aging. And I'm in menopause. This is like a nightmare, right?

[B]

Right?

[C]

Where you just like, what did this? How did this happen? Right? And I think this is where it's not. You really start to come full circle.

[D]

That's so, so interesting, because I think a lot of us can have this idea of getting older, continuing with our life, and thinking everything becomes more perfect, everything becomes more polished, everything becomes more put together. And what I'm hearing from you is it's not necessarily that everything becomes more perfect, but you become better at dealing with the different things that life throws at you. So talk to me a little bit about that. What does it actually look like to embrace the messiness, to embrace the lack of perfection? Like, how did you actually deal with the fact that not everything is going to be exactly as you might have envisaged it or how you would want it to be?

[C]

Now there's this lady right now on Instagram, the We Don't Care club. Have you guys watched it?

[B]

I'm gonna have a look.

[C]

Yeah. And she does it perfectly about, like, I just don't care. And it.

[D]

And.

[C]

And you're now at the age where I just don't. And. And she. Like, what I love about her, it's like she was literally talking to me, right? Like, I don't care. Like, sometimes I leave the house and my husband's like, are you gonna put on your wig? No. Right? Like,

[D]

right.

[C]

Yeah, they would. I would never have done that. Like, it's just. And he's like, oh, are you. It's all good. Yeah, Right? What are you gonna say? Right? Like, he's like, you look beautiful.

[B]

Yeah, yeah,

[C]

yeah. And I Think these are some of the things where you're like, why did I care so much? Where did I put that pressure like that recovering perfection? Why did I put. I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna do the groceries, I'm gonna be comfortable and I jacked up outfit. I don't have my wig on, but you know, it's like me and the grocery store, like, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

How is it going to be? And so I think the way when you get older, you start to see some of these things, ideas or notions that you held onto are just not important anymore. Right? So we've recently had a health scare in my family with my husband. And for us, we are gym people, right? We go to the gym four or five times a week. And this is like very important for us. And you know, I'm stressing myself about getting there. But if you don't have the basic health, right, what does like any of that, you know, matter, Right? When I was flipping out about I couldn't get the nail appointment and you know, this and that, what does any of that matter? Right? And. And I think as we get older, there are those incidences. Like your parents, maybe they start to get sick, or maybe you start to see your grandparents, like they pass on and you have an accident, whatever life is lifing. And then you start to have these experiences that really just show you what is truly important. And it can be so jarring. And I think that's why you can have these experiences and it just can change your life. Can you imagine a death of a child? I can. Like that is. Something is not right in the world if your child passes beyond you and a baby to a mother or, you know, to lose your. Your ability to walk, like, you know, these types of things. And then you're like. And I was worried about that Excel. Yeah. Or I was worried about that dinner party or whatever it may be. And I think that's what's happened is I've got older and life was lifeing and I had these experiences. Experiences where it. Yeah, it makes you smaller and you're clearer. I just add one thing, you know, on the professional. I've had lots of highs and lows and. And one of them in is I was in. I was part or caught up in a large corporate scandal on the work front. And through that experience, I met the worst version of myself, right. The true ugly cry where I think I could have said I fell into a depression because I just could not believe where I was. But I also met the strongest Version the got up, you know, they said, okay, I keep on moving. This is what I'm gonna do. This is what's next. And, and then through that experience too, it showed me like I've hit rock bottom. So like, is this a problem? And that's signal versus noise. Is this really a problem? And before that problem could have like, but now it's like, that's like kindergarten stuff. I can't even bother myself with it anymore. And so that ability is that wisdom? Is that age? I don't know what it is. But you're just that, that Teflon is just. I'm just able to manage it much better.

[B]

It's gross. Yeah, that's growth I really wanted to touch on. I mean, you've talked about your family, you've given us this insight into the behind the scenes of being that girl, a successful woman. Right. And as much as you know, you've talked about the trade offs and the ruthless decisions and some of the guilt and the sacrifices, it would be great to hear some of the systems you've built in the back end of your life that are allowing you to actually thrive and succeed. Because as challenging as it may seem, or as many trade offs as you might have made in life, you're actually thriving. Your family is thriving. Right. I mean, we were talking about this before the recording, but we met you through Regina, who's also been a guest on the pod and she was telling us about how you have such beautiful moments with your family and how you built a system that allows you to thrive in different areas. And before this conversation was telling us about the system you're building around your health now that you're aging. Right. Tell us about the different systems you're deploying in your life to make sure that you are succeeding in these different areas.

[C]

I've seen the biggest system or the biggest element is my relationship with my husband. We've been now this year, 21 years. And I think whether it's your husband, it's your partner, the people around you in that system, because any successful person, however you define success, it hasn't happened alone. It has been done with your community, your tribe, whatever you want to call it. And I really say it with my husband. And when I came into the relationship, what I realized very was like, I'm a very strong orator, but I did not know how to communicate like an adult in a relationship. And he forced that and he continues to force it. Right. I have no problem to go silent. I have no problem with silence. He never Accepts that he's like, we talk it out. But why do I talk about my husband? Because every January, it's about where we come together. We write each other a letter about our vision for the relationship, our vision as individuals, and our vision for our family. And I think it's. And that's why I really, like. It's so important to ensure that you're aligned, right? And that you're still walking the same path as humans together, right? I was very clear that this was my forever, but that forever. And I chose that. I want to be happy with my forever, not looking at some stranger, but we needed to share the same vision. And so I think that is the. One of the first things is like, that. That. That vision and that person, your person or the people around you really need to be. I think you also need to. One of the support systems is really being clear about the people that you have around you, right? I've seen, like, some very successful people. And you just feel bad because you see the people around them or you see people who are able to make it up because of the people around them. And so I. I've had those people, right? Like, I think about my best friend. She lives in Hong Kong. I live in Frankfurt. And, you know, for each of my children, she was in the. Having in the delivery unit with my husband. My husband was actually one of those useless men on the ground.

[B]

Like, he was in labor,

[C]

going through the pains. I had the cesarean, and he was like, I can't handle the blood. And they were like, taking care of him. I'm like, I'm having the baby, right? But, you know, my girl was holding my hand for both of my caesareans for my first one, my second one. She lives in Hong Kong. And, you know, I was like, the baby's early. She was like, okay. She flew in. In. In the morning that I had the baby. She flew in that morning from Hong Kong, stayed with me for the day, and then flew back home. That's my ride or die. Like, this is just my girl, where I have some say, like, he's my forever, she's my forever. I think this is, like, just really so important, right, that you. That you. You have that. And I think sometimes it's like you have those people that are also able to mirror back to you what is happening, right? So my husband was like, you are a nightmare right now. Maybe you need to go get those hormones, right? What is happening here, right? You know, when you. Sometimes you feel right, in your opinion and how something has Gone wrong. And then sometimes your girl needs to be like, no, no, no. Yeah, it doesn't work like that. Yeah. So I really say it's. My husband has been a big part of that. I think the people that I have decided to really put around me and. And then very much the last one, I. I really think for me has just been like that notion about being a student for life. And because that learning has just really kind of allowed me to grow or had an openness to grow and then to kind of fall into opportunities that were there because I just had that.

[D]

Yeah, that's good. Beautiful. That's good.

[B]

I love that. Marriage and the relationships around you are systems for success. And when you approach it with that intentionality, they mirror back to you everything that you need to be and become in order to reach the goals that you have for your life. And I love that element about marriage as well. I think it's two newly married people. I think we're learning about laying those foundations of forever with someone so that you can both succeed in career and in life together. And I think recognizing that as long as we're locked in, as long as we're good, yeah, everything will be good.

[C]

And I think the last one is obviously my relationship with God. My relationship with God. And I think I actually should have raised this earlier when you had talked to me about that pressure from outside. The reason I often cared, because I had that relationship. Right. So if I am going to be sitting in that room or I am going to have that is what he ordained that why do I need to be worrying about what someone else is even thinking about? Right. But I think that has been another system for me and relying on that faith.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And my relationship with God has not always been a smooth one. Right. Sometimes I was not obedient, and sometimes I felt there was silence. But I do believe that faith has also been helped the structure and helped like an energy. My husband is not a Christian. He's not a believer, but it's never been because he's always given the space for that, obviously. But I think. Yeah. That having that also has been where I felt as long as me. Vika, if we're aligned, this man and the people around me are so secure, have that emotional stability. There's more. There's enough.

[D]

That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful.

[B]

Thank you.

[D]

So this has been such an edifying conversation. Thank you.

[B]

Real. Thank you for your transparency and your warness as well.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It's definitely given us so much to think about. Was a lot of food for thought. And I think it's also revealed just the reality of striving for the things that you really want and being ruthless. I think sometimes ruthless can have a negative connotation, but it really is like, hey, we as women can also be ruthless with the things that we want and the things that are for us. And we can be ruthless in our execution on the pursuit to get it. So thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you so much, ladies. I've had a reaction. Thank you so much.

[D]

And before we close out, we would love to know, like, where can we follow you? Where can we support your work, especially as you are an entrepreneur? So where can the girlies find you?

[C]

Yes, you can obviously find me on Instagram under voice1maga. Benny. I have a cosmetic line, Magaly and Me, which you can also find on Instagram. And it's a Korean inspired made in Germany. You get the glow.

[D]

That's right.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

We need it.

[C]

Definitely. Look us up, Magaly and me and, and, and, and reach out. I think, I think there's an element of, of giving ice people. I'm paying it forward, but also giving, giving back. And I welcome any young lady out there and even actually any woman out there who feels, you know, what they're questioning a change or, you know, they have a question about what do I need to do in this next step. Feel free to reach out.

[B]

Thank you. Wow. Well, sisters, we hope that you've enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for you sharing so transparently and in such a real way. Sisters, if you've enjoyed this conversation. Conversation, then we hope that you subscribe to our YouTube channel and make sure that you share this episode with someone who you feel like needs to ruthlessly eliminate people pleasing. Okay, let's. Let's call it that.

[C]

And perfectionism.

[B]

And perfectionism. The ruthless elimination of perfectionism. That will be the episode of this title. Of this. That will be the title of this episode. Sorry, getting it backwards. But yeah, sisters, we love you so much and we hope that these conversations are edifying lying to you and help you see that there are so many different paths towards success and you can be the woman you're called to be, whether people like it or not.

[D]

Hello?

[B]

Not so. Yeah, if you like that. So, yes, if you love this episode, make sure that you share it as well as subscribe to our YouTube channel too, my sisters, and rate the podcast five stars on every platform that you are listening on. You can also come and follow us across all social platforms at to my sisterhood to keep up with what we are doing.

[D]

Absolutely.

[C]

And if you would love a weekly

[D]

Glowing and Growing tip straight to your inbox, make sure you sign up to our mailing list [e-mail] sisters. We absolutely adore you and we hope you have a fabulous week ahead. Until then, keep glowing and growing.

[E]

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