Choosing Yourself: The Rise of Child-Free Women and Delayed Parenthood

Summary

To My Sisters Podcast Episode Summary
Episode Title: Choosing Yourself: The Rise of Child-Free Women and Delayed Parenthood
Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
Release Date: June 9, 2025

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Introduction to the Conversation

In this enlightening episode of To My Sisters, hosts Courtney Daniella Boateng and Renée Kapuku delve into the evolving landscape of motherhood choices among women today. The focus is on understanding why an increasing number of women are opting to delay parenthood or choose to remain child-free, exploring the multifaceted reasons behind these decisions.

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Representation of Child-Free Women

Renee opens the discussion by highlighting the positive shift in representation:

"[04:11] Renee: I think it's actually been nice to kind of see the other side or see what it looks like to live a life where you don't have kids..."

Courtney echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the importance of diverse representations:

"[06:32] Courtney: We think kids are a beautiful thing. They're a gift."

The hosts appreciate how media and content creators are showcasing varied lifestyles, providing comfort and validation to those who resonate with a child-free life.

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Societal Shifts and Autonomy

Renee discusses the broader societal changes that empower women to prioritize their autonomy:

"[07:31] Renee: We're catapulting into the 21st century, women are starting to really pick up on autonomy."

Courtney adds that this newfound autonomy allows women to make choices that align with their personal growth and fulfillment:

"[20:13] Renee: It is about choice."

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Economic and Practical Considerations

A significant portion of the conversation centers around the practical and economic factors influencing women's decisions:

"[08:18] Renee: A lot of people are saying, how can I ensure that I'm creating a stable enough environment, at least financially, to bring a child into this world."

Courtney emphasizes the responsible approach many women take:

"[50:45] Courtney: ...I think women are focusing on, before I have these kids, I want to make sure that... I can make sure I'm my best self before I bring children into this picture."

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Impact of Dating Culture

The hosts critically examine modern dating dynamics and their impact on family planning:

"[24:09] Renee: ...hookup culture is thriving. People are afraid of commitment."

Courtney humorously discusses the challenges men face in committing:

*"[37:27] Renee: This one that I've pivoted so much, I've even gone... "Stay at home girlfriend, stress me out." *

They highlight how commitment issues and changing relationship norms contribute to delayed parenthood.

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Relationship Dynamics and Parenting Partnerships

Renee and Courtney explore the necessity of shared responsibilities in parenting:

"[19:14] Renee: ...we need somebody that's also going to pick up that share of parenting responsibilities as well."

Courtney underscores the importance of mutual support:

"[52:25] Courtney: ...I need to maybe work a bit harder, take some money, go to therapy or invest in something..."

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Redefining Fulfillment and Legacy

A pivotal part of the discussion revolves around redefining what fulfillment means beyond traditional family structures:

"[46:24] Renee: ...we are very multifaceted. And because we are multifaceted, we find joy from many things."

Courtney encourages listeners to contemplate their personal legacy:

"[53:09] Renee: ...it will be a beautiful thing. And if you don't want to have children as well, consider the cost."

They advocate for a holistic approach to fulfillment, encompassing personal growth, career, relationships, and community involvement.

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Listener's Dilemma: Balancing Desire for Children with Partner's Reluctance

The episode features a heartfelt segment where a listener from Kenya shares her struggle:

"[31:10] Renee: ...this is a big thing. Having a family is very much a big thing."

Courtney responds with empathy and offers practical advice:

"[53:22] Renee: ...don't let fear motivate you either."

They emphasize the importance of open communication and understanding in navigating such significant life decisions.

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Conclusion and Reflective Activity

Courtney concludes the episode by encouraging listeners to introspect:

"[54:02] Renee: ...please remind me. But literally seeing the day in the life..."

She invites listeners to journal and reflect on their desired legacy and what a fulfilled life looks like for them personally, free from societal pressures.

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Key Takeaways

1. Empowerment Through Representation: Increased visibility of child-free lifestyles offers validation and comfort to women choosing their own paths.
2. Autonomy and Personal Growth: Modern women are prioritizing personal and career growth, allowing for more deliberate family planning.
3. Economic Stability: Financial considerations play a crucial role in the decision to delay or forego parenthood.
4. Changing Relationship Norms: The rise of hookup culture and commitment hesitancy are influencing family planning choices.
5. Redefining Fulfillment: Fulfillment is now seen as a multifaceted concept, encompassing personal growth, relationships, and community engagement beyond traditional family structures.
6. Communication in Relationships: Open dialogue and understanding are essential when partners have differing views on parenthood.

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Final Thoughts

Courtney and Renée's candid and thoughtful discussion sheds light on the complex interplay of societal, economic, and personal factors influencing women's decisions about motherhood. Their emphasis on choice, empowerment, and holistic fulfillment encourages listeners to make informed and authentic decisions about their lives.

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For more enriching conversations and to join the Sisterhood community, subscribe to To My Sisters on your preferred podcast platform and follow Courtney and Renée on their social media channels.

Transcript

[Courtney]

Hey, I'm Elise Hu, host of the podcast Ted Talks Daily. For more than 20 years, Paylocity has been leading the way with cutting edge work solutions like On Demand Payment which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in and out through their mobile device, and numerous other cutting edge solutions that simplify collaboration across hr, finance and it. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your [e-mail] Simplified hi, it's Courtney and Renee from the To My Sisters podcast and this episode is sponsored by the Long Wave, a free weekly newsletter from the Guardian.

[Renee]

Now Sisters, if you've ever felt like our stories, our global black experiences deserve more depth, more nuance, more spotlight, the Long Wave might be just what you've been looking for.

[Courtney]

Written by Guardian columnist Nezrine Malik and edited by Jason Okundaye, this newsletter brings you rich reporting, fresh commentary and powerful features from across Africa, the us, the uk, the Caribbean and beyond. Whether it's music, politics, business or beauty, it's a space where our culture, our voices and our realities are thoughtfully explored and conversations which are often limited to social media and WhatsApp groups are amplified.

[Renee]

If you love the conversations we have here, on To My Sisters. We think you'll love what the Long Wave is building too. Sign up to the Long Wave for free at theguardian.com forward/thelongwave25.

[Courtney]

Why more women are Choosing to Delay Motherhood or Just.

[Renee]

Be child Free Most women are not trad whites.

[Courtney]

Yeah, facts. I could be. I could be persuaded.

[Renee]

No but stay at home girlfriend.

[Courtney]

I don't want Courtney. I like to stay at home. I hear it and if somebody will provide the financial means for me to stay at home, I'm staying.

[Renee]

Courtney so you mean that if someone asks you what is your profession? I am a professional. Stay at home girlfriend?

[Courtney]

Yes. Jail yes no it's freedom.

[Renee]

I've been seeing a guy for a while and we were discussing moving towards marriage. Out of the blue he mentioned he doesn't want kids. Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters Podcast.

[Courtney]

I'm Renee and I'm Courtney and we are your online sisters and hosts of the 2 My Sisters podcast.

[Renee]

Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters across the world.

[Courtney]

And in today's conversation we are going to be talking about choosing yourself. Why more women are choosing to delay motherhood or just be child free. Yes, this is a conversation we've actually had before on the pod. But it'll be nice to revisit with a bit more information, a bit more nuance. And also, as we've, you know, grown and evolved as women and we want to hear from you guys, chime in. Why do you think more and more women are choosing to be child free? And also, what do you think. Think about the online discourse that's been happening around motherhood and wifehood and why more women are choosing themselves and whatever a fulfilled future looks like for them. So I think I'll first pose that question to you then. What are your thoughts on the increase of content that we are seeing of women who are choosing to be child free? And why do you think this is the case?

[Renee]

Yeah, no, I think it's interesting. I think it has been, on balance, it's been great to see a lot of women showing a life outside of having a family. I think for a lot of us growing up, we have been peddled the narrative or we've seen a lot of representation of women's lives around motherhood, around being a wife, or, you know, just being in the family unit and being the main kind of purveyor of the family unit. So I think it's actually been nice to kind of see the other side or see what it looks like to live a life where you don't have kids or you may not, you know, end up getting married, or at least these things are much later down the line. Especially because for a lot of us as women, some of us have really wrestled with insecurities around these things.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And I think because society for a very long time has pitted women in society against each other because of these things. Right. To be a woman is to be a mother. To be a woman is to be a wife. To be a woman is to have that traditional family unit. And so I think the representation is actually necessary and quite beautiful to see because quite a lot of these women are. They're thriving. They're really doing some really, really great stuff. And there's a lot of women that are, you know, prioritizing their career. There's a lot of women that are prioritizing family in a different way. There's a lot of women who are. There's even like the rise of content, for example, adoption, foster care, mothers, which has been really nice to see. Women that are going traveling, women that are still invested in family in a different way, whether it is being the cool auntie. I don't know if you've seen the content where it's like, I had this Plan of being married by this time, getting kids by this time, and plan B being the cool auntie. And they look like they're having a great time and I love that for them. I think that's important and I think it gives a lot of comfort to people who that lifestyle might actually suit. It's like, hi, I can see this now. Representation is important. I think where sometimes this might. Might be an unpopular opinion, but I do think where sometimes it can be a little bit much is when we start to almost villainize or demonize having kids.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Renee]

I think that when it gets to the extremity of, I don't know if you've seen any of. Around having, for example, a crying baby on a plane.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

Or, you know, just because you are, you know, child free doesn't mean that you're living a life that is childless. There are children in the world and we're going to have to interact with.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Renee]

And I think it speaks to a wider narrative or a wider issue where there are a lot of people that have trauma around family and around children in general. And so I think as much as it's beautiful to see the representation of, you know, child free women, I do think that we also, on balance, need to be careful that we're not pathologizing or villainizing kids or villainizing women who do choose to have family and, you know, have kids. I think there is a little bit of content that's like, oh, you know, my life is better because I have no kids. And that's not necessarily true.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So I think it really is about finding the balance and making sure that we're not overly like demonizing women that do choose to have children. And quite transparently, both of us, we want to have kids.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

We think kids are a beautiful thing. They're a gift. And so we, we don't live a life where we're without kids. We need children in this world to survive. So we need to be careful of that, that particular style of content. In terms of your point around why women are now starting to delay parenthood or completely go child free, I think we're in an era where a lot of women are prioritizing their autonomy. So for a lot of. When I think about even just a couple of gener ago, having a family was proxy to having stability. It was a powerful move to be married and have kids, especially because not that long ago women couldn't vote. Women couldn't have, you know, land or jobs or just some of the freedoms that we have in society. That we can take for granted. A lot of these things women did not have access to. And so it wasn't a surprise that having a family was seen as the way out or seen as customary for women. It was actually a means of survival. We needed to survive.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

In a lot of us in. In a lot of our societies. And so it's not a coincidence that as we are catapulting into the 21st century, women are starting to really pick up on autonomy. Actually, I don't have to be a mother right now, or I don't have to be a mother at all. It may not necessarily be something that is part of my life story, but getting to that place where it's okay for it to not be part of my story, because I think that's where we're currently getting to. To a place where people are actually okay with saying, I might not be a mother at any my life. And that's okay. And I. I think that's actually, again, a beautiful thing. I think there's also a lot of practical realities as to why a lot of people delay parenthood. A lot of people are enjoying their roaring twenties.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

Facts, the roaring twenties, yo. Back in the day. And again, this is the disclaimer. Want to have kids. Think it's a beautiful thing. But, you know, a lot of people are like, my frontal lobe is still connecting in my early 20s. I don't know if I feel comfortable enough having kids at this particular time. I think the reality challenge of finding stable enough relationships to be able to create a family unit is a big concern. And I think a lot of women are starting to say, do you know what? I don't want to have kids just yet, because I don't believe that I'm in a stable enough relationship. And I think that's actually pretty responsible. I respect it. A lot of us want to pursue different things in our early 20s, in our teens, in our early 30s. That may not have necessarily been the case for our parents, grandparents, generation. And so having the privilege of being able to focus on personal growth, focus on career, focus on even stacking for the possibility of having a family, I think is also a beautiful thing. We have come leaps and bounds in medical breakthroughs. Now, I know people are loving the geriatric pregnancy, but a lot of these things are actually possible and capable because of medical breakthroughs. We're seeing a lot of women give birth. In fact, we're seeing the tide go towards women having, you know, kids later on in there.

[Courtney]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

Way, way later we're looking at, you know, early 30s and beyond. And this again, it's a beautiful thing. And then there's also the practical consideration of the fact that there's a cast to live in crisis. And a lot of women are thinking in their minds, well, how can I ensure that I'm creating a stable enough environment, at least financially, to bring a child into this world? We are a very self absorbed and capitalist society. For a lot of us back in the day, we had communal structures of living. We had, you know, grandparents and aunties and uncle. A lot of us still come from cultures where that's the case. But a lot of us are first, second, second, third generation migrants where we're losing that community culture of raising kids. And so a lot of people are finding themselves with kids, but in isolated hubs, they don't have the privilege, the privilege or the luxury of leaving a child with an uncle or an auntie or a grandma or a grandpa. They are facing the brunt of child rearing themselves and having to deal with a cost of living crisis to boot. Inflation while salaries are still dipping. I think these are real practical considerations that women are taking into account when thinking about having a kiss. Where am I going to live? Will I have enough money to feed them? And with the stark numbers of people that are actually below the poverty line, a lot of women are basically saying, listen, I'm not ready to have a kid right now. And that's, it's real. Like, I think the issue that I sometimes have with the conversation is that people think or they, they make women feel bad about wanting to delay having a kid or not having a kid at all and call it selfish.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

But if this is a reality facing a lot of women, it's no wonder that they don't want to have kids right now or not have kids at all. It's, that's, it's real.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Like poverty is actually a trauma. It's a trauma that we do not talk about enough, not having enough. And so having that experience and not wanting to have to create that experience for somebody else. That's why a lot of people are checking, they're choosing not to have kids. And then lastly, trauma more broadly.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

A lot of women, even women within our sisterhood, are eldest daughters. They have been parentified. They have had an experience of, you know, raising a child without the fruits.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And so a lot of them are rediscovering and relearning their girlhood now. It's, we've seen it on TikTok the selfish era, it's all about me. It's all about my girlhood. And that's okay because they lost their childhood. And so it's taking them a little bit more time to feel as though they're comfortable enough to step into parental, especially because they were exposed to it so early and by force. Good. So, yeah, those are some of the reasons that come so good, I think, but would love.

[Courtney]

I think you've articulated it so perfectly. I think a lot of people are reclaiming a freedom that was not afforded to them either because of childhood trauma. Like you're saying, being parentified eldest daughter syndrome, which we really identify with and we've talked about on the pod a lot. But then it's also sometimes reclaiming the freedom that you didn't have before. As in, you, you didn't have time, you didn't have maybe energy. Maybe you went through a season where you were so heavily policed by society, like. Like you were identifying with your earlier points. Societal trends have also changed. And before, where maybe there were women who were like, no, maybe I want to go to school, I want to start a business, or I want to focus on my career, or maybe I just don't feel physically ready, or I'm a bit scared of parenting, but they had society on their neck, like, no, do it as early as possible, or, no, this is the whole point of being married. Or, no, this is the whole point of being a woman. So now they didn't have the freedom to just be themselves. They didn't have the freedom to travel. They didn't have the freedom to discover, okay, what do I like in adult years? Or they didn't have the freedom to use their money on themselves because their culture revolves so much around mothering and motherhood. They never experienced the freedom of their womanhood. They were just told that their womanhood was purely for parenting. And so now they're actually reclaiming that freedom, which is, well, if society's values and standards have changed and I no longer have those voices policing me, I'm going to reclaim that freedom. Then I'm going to experience the freedom of having the option to be like, I'm 27 and I'm now going to use my savings to go and travel the world. And no one's going to be like, boo. Like, burn her at the stakes. You know, she's a witch. Like, people are not going to do that anymore. I'm going to live in that freedom. And I do think there is a flip side to it. As you identified, I'M really glad you brought up that point, which is we also need to be careful not to take it to the other side of the pendulum completely. And demonizing children, especially demonizing mothers and being like, oh, I've been seeing a lot of skits around. Like you go and visit your friend and suddenly there's this snotty nosed kid that during, you know, your conversation she's having to be like, put that down. Do you know what I mean? And I'm trying to catch up with you and now your baby's running up on me. You know, one of our friends sent me a TikTok and it was like, what hanging out with my friend now looks like now that she's like a mother. And it was you just playing with their child and them climbing on you and stuff. And I get it. Like you don't always want your interactions to be like that. Especially if you're someone who maybe you don't like kids. And let's just be honest, like there are some people who don't like children. They find them very, very annoying, you know. But the fact that this child is now a part of your friend's life, you do have to embrace that now. This child is a part of your friendship dynamic to some degree. And sometimes hanging out with your friend is gonna look like hanging out with them and their kids or their kid and like taking time to entertain them. You know, you are an auntie and they are going to want to kick that ball with you or they are going to want to show you something that's really cool and you're gonna have to adapt. Unless you want to lose your friend, you know, or unless you want to be the person who's like, no, I only want to see you outside of your friends. And I remember I was talking to someone like a of years ago and she a slightly older woman and she was like, you know, she and our partner decided that they did didn't want to have children. But now her and their friends are having kids, right? Like their, her friends are now having kids. So whenever they're meeting up it's like the kids have to come or they're not being invited to birthday parties because they don't have kids. And it's like now you have to have a very full conversation around. Like I don't want to hang out with you only when your kids are around. I want us to hang out and sometimes leave the kids at home. Like sometimes we need to just be me and you, or me and the girls or whatever. But also I do still want to be involved in your life. Like, okay, your friend, your daughter, or your son is having a birthday party. Invite me. You know, I might not want to stay the whole. I hate kids. Might not want to stay the whole time, and I'm a gift then. I just. I want to be in the pictures. I want to say that I've been a part of these milestones of your life. Don't count me out just because I don't have children or, you know, that I don't really care for children that much. And also, like, I can be that friend that helps to take care of your kids if you want me to. I don't have kids. I don't have other responsibilities apart from, you know, marriage and work and all of that stuff. Maybe I can. And so I think it's looking at it as, okay, you having kids is not a problem. Me not having kids is also not a problem. Right. But it's also thinking, how do our lives now merge? You know, how do our lives now merge? And, sorry, it's not that you don't have other responsibilities, but, like, you don't have kids. You don't have the responsibility of. You don't have that responsibility. And I think to myself around, like, this whole not having kids thing and people just choosing to delay having children. I think it's also a fruit of people's cultural and social perception of marriage changing. I think we're also. And not even just marriage, but intimate romantic relationships. I actually think because people are like, the dating streets are so ghetto. Why are we gonna have kids? And so I think people are also waiting to have kids, and it looks like they're delaying having kids, which in turn, they actually are, because they're waiting to find the right partner. So could you speak to that? Like, how does our cultural experience of dating and marriage and how we see commitment in that way impact the way that we procreate and choose to bring children into the world?

[Renee]

You know, the person that you end up with is going to be the father of your kids. And that is a weighty decision. That is that that's when we are picking partners. And when we think about marriage as an institution, that's an element of that institution. The fact that you are creating a family that is not just you, but also the guy.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And I think what's been actually quite sobering but beautiful is that women are considering that.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Especially because we've spoken about this at length. But the relationship and the responsibility of the relationship has been on the woman. For so long in society that I think a lot of women are kind of like, I hear, I've heard that. But if I am going to procreate with somebody, I'm also now taking into account that I can't do this myself. Yeah, you are. Listen, it takes two to tango. That's how we procreate in the first place. And I think because a lot of women, because of the shift outside in society, economically, women are, they're doing really well. They're out here getting jobs, they have dreams that are outside of the family now. A lot of women are now thinking about, okay, if it is that realistically I'm actually going to be contributing to bills, I'm going to have a job. I need somebody that's also going to pick up that share of parenting responsibilities as well. And so it's the practical considerations. We have a changing society, a changing dynamic and a changing type of woman.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Is as much as we see all of the cute like trad wife content. Most women are not tradwife.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Facts, cost of living crisis. Yeah. I've even seen trad girlfriend content. I stay at home girlfriend content. I think that is the most abhorrent thing. That's not for me.

[Courtney]

I'm not. I could be. I could be persuaded.

[Renee]

No, but stay at home girlfriend.

[Courtney]

Edward.

[Renee]

Courtney.

[Courtney]

I like to stay at home.

[Renee]

I hear it. But.

[Courtney]

And if somebody will provide the financial means for me to stay at home, I'm staying.

[Renee]

Courtney.

[Courtney]

Yes. Red.

[Renee]

So you mean that if someone asks you what is your profession? I am a professional. Stay at home girlfriend.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Renee]

Jail?

[Courtney]

Yes. No, it's freedom. It's freedom.

[Renee]

And you know what? That's what feminism is. That's about choice.

[Courtney]

But what's the difference? Well, I don't, I don't understand.

[Renee]

Stay at home girlfriend.

[Courtney]

Yeah. It's like being a stay at home wife. Wife.

[Renee]

But it's not how. As in you're not a stay at home wife, you're a girlfriend.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

If that man chooses to like.

[Courtney]

Yeah. But this. So this. I feel like people assume that stay at home girlfriends or wives or whatever are not stuck in cash in the back.

[Renee]

No. Courtney, I'm gonna send you some of the content. Maybe.

[Courtney]

Maybe I haven't.

[Renee]

Maybe it's actually my content buyer. But some of the content that I've seen. There was one story of a girl who. She used to be granted an only fans model. Oh yeah.

[Courtney]

No judgment. Yeah.

[Renee]

Yeah. She used to be an early fans model and she left that whole lifestyle for her boyfriend. Okay. So all she does is actually be a stay at home girlfriend. So she gets his coffees, she gets. She makes his food.

[Courtney]

Okay.

[Renee]

It's basically proxy for a maid, but I hear that. I feel like that has colored my perception.

[Courtney]

But do you get paid? Like, do you get an allowance? Do you get, like. That's, That's. So that's my thing. Yeah. My thing is. No, no, I just. Just to defend my case, I would love stay at home life if it. I will only do it if it comes with an allowance.

[Renee]

I. I hear it.

[Courtney]

I feel like that's the only way I hear it. If I'm gonna forfeit my job.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

To stay at home.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

I need an income.

[Renee]

I hear it.

[Courtney]

And if you are going to supply my income, pay me.

[Renee]

I. So I hear that.

[Courtney]

That's what I mean.

[Renee]

If you're paid for your labor. Yes, that's what it is. But it's the lack of recognition of it.

[Courtney]

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

That gets me. So it's like, yeah, your expenses are paid. Yeah. You're living like rent free.

[Courtney]

No, you need an allowance. No, no, no. If you. Sorry, psa. Because when we're talking about these, we're not talking about the same thing. If you are a stay at home wife, stay at home girlfriend, stay at home mother, beloved. If you are not getting an allowance at the moment, you're doing this whole thing wrong. What for living expenses? No, no, no. You need to go and say, okay, but I need. This is how our aunties and uncles made it. And. Well, not uncles, the aunties. I need £700 above.

[Renee]

No, you're actually.

[Courtney]

And you know what you say, what is it for? Upkeep. That's it. It's an upkeep allowance. Upkeep. What I do with it. You don't know. If I buy bag, if I buy shoe, if I buy clothes. It doesn't matter.

[Renee]

It's not your business.

[Courtney]

And that's the money you start.

[Renee]

No, you're actually so. So that.

[Courtney]

That before, you know, the shot.

[Renee]

That's how they did it. You know.

[Courtney]

Thank you very much. That's actually thanks for. You know, you're doing. Oh, all our aunties that were doing Avon.

[Renee]

That's. Yeah. Facts. I married you. But that's because you're entrepreneurial.

[Courtney]

So I stay at home. Women. If you're doing it any other way. Silliness. You're just a dependent.

[Renee]

And that is why you are cdp, first of her name. That is. Therein lies the crux of the issue.

[Courtney]

Okay, I get what you're saying now.

[Renee]

When you are fully, totally dependent without being empowered to be independent, like when I'll send you some of the content, please remind me. But literally seeing the day in the life of a stay at home girlfriend and it's like he's, you know, going to get a coffee for my babes, making his breakfast. Then I took the car over to go and get his lunch and then I came back and your life is him. Your life is literally gravitating around this.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Like that is the one thing that I'm like, oh girl, you need to.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah, rethink things. You need to.

[Renee]

This one that I've pivoted so much, I've even gone. I'm like, what was the question?

[Courtney]

We were talking about dating culture.

[Renee]

Yes. Dating culture. Yes, yes, yes. And I was talking about partnership. Yes, yes, yes. Sorry, that, that stressed me out. Stay at home girlfriend, stress me out.

[Courtney]

Trying to talk me out of it.

[Renee]

Like nah, girl, just cuz you're entrepreneur. I trust you. You know, I'll pop up with like how many salons and various entrepreneurial activities. Some of us, we like fish.

[Courtney]

That's what they ask us. You know, how did you, how did you get the following months to start your venture? Was your venture capital? Yes, my upkeep money, my small upkeep.

[Renee]

Upkeep money is wild for my nails. But yeah, speaking to the data for the reality of the dating pool because of those shifts in society and because the reality for a lot of women is not trad wife. Yes it is. I'm working. So if I'm going to have a child, I need to either trust that a this man has enough to provide for me and my child or we're both going to have to do some parenting partnership. And realistically it's very difficult to find that in today's society. When we think about some of the content that a lot of men is exposed to right now and women just around relationships. We're seeing the collapse of relationships in real time online.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

We are seeing the decline of the family unit in real time online as satire and reality TV shows. We are seeing people getting together as hookups. Hookup culture is thriving. People are afraid of commitment. Like, and even when you do talk about commitment, the first thing that's out of people's words, out of people's mouths are I want to get a prenup. I want you to drop your, your second name. I want to do all of that.

[Courtney]

It's actually gremlin behavior.

[Renee]

All of these gram. We're not even on the second day. You're talking to me about prenup. I have a job. Like, I actually work.

[Courtney]

Let's pause it.

[Renee]

Actually.

[Courtney]

This prenup thing, I think we're forgetting that, like, in essence, we're coming into this union to be one. This is. What is yours is mine, and what is mine in this marriage is yours.

[Renee]

But anyways, coming back, we might even need to do a whole. We'll come back to that.

[Courtney]

But it'll be good, actually, to talk to, like, somebody whose job is it? It is.

[Renee]

Yeah. That would be fantastic. Very interesting stuff, that. But, yeah, the dating, in essence, dating in the 21st century is in the pit of.

[Courtney]

Yeah, hell.

[Renee]

It's in hell. A lot of women, the experiences, even amongst our friends, like, hearing some of the experiences that a lot of us have gone through and are going through in the dating world, it's not easy. It's. It's really grim.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Like, even the thought of getting married to somebody at this point, it's almost seen as a miracle. That's why people love marriage. No, that's why people love married content. Oh, my gosh. Like, you guys got married. Yeah, it's amazing. That's why when people get, you know, divorces or when we see separations online, everybody is interested because they are invested. We do not have that many representations of healthy relationships, healthy marriages, even families. Families. I don't know. Yo. There are some content creators I've been following for years. All of a sudden, I regret to inform you, but we have broken up.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Four kids together. Y' all got six kids together. And so the pervasive narratives that we are hearing is that this doesn't work. And so women are taking their time because it seems like men are taking their time inside the dating world. That part because I ain't gonna lie to you. Some. I feel like a lot of men. I love you guys. I really do, but you're taking too much time. It's. It is not that hard nor long to decide that you want to be with one person. You're just here for 10 years.

[Courtney]

Hi, it's Courtney and Renee from the To My Sisters podcast, and this episode is sponsored by the Long Wave, a free weekly newsletter from the Guardian.

[Renee]

Now, sisters, if you've ever felt like our stories, our global black experiences deserv. More depth, more nuance, more spotlight, the Long Wave might be just what you've been looking for.

[Courtney]

Written by Guardian columnist Nezrin Malik and edited by Jason Okundaye, this newsletter brings you rich reporting, fresh commentary and powerful features from across Africa, the us, the uk, the Caribbean and beyond. Whether it's music, politics, business or beauty, it's a space where our culture, our voices and our realities are thoughtfully explored and conversations which are often limited to social media and WhatsApp groups are amplified.

[Renee]

If you love the conversations we have here, on to my sisters. We think you'll love what the Long Wave is building too. Sign up to the Long Wave for free at theguardian.com forward/thelongwave25.

[C]

This is Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Boost Mobile is no longer that prepaid wireless company you remember. They've invested billions into building their own 5G towers across America. With Boost Mobile's networks, customers enjoy the speed and service they'd expect from the Big three, plus groundbreaking benefits you'd only get from a true challenger of the industry. Boost Mobile will let you try the network risk free for 30 days. So visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us [e-mail] today.

[Courtney]

Hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Work Life. For over 20 years, Paylocity has been simplifying work with innovative solutions that teams love, like on demand payment, which offers employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff to clock in and out through their mobile device, and numerous other cutting edge solutions that simplify collaboration across hr, finance and it. Learn more about how Paylocity can help streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your [e-mail] Simplified dating for eight years. Dating for five years. Are you bloody. Can you stop wasting my time? Five years, eight years, 10 years.

[Renee]

The worst thing is it will be the best years of your life in your 20s that you're with this person.

[Courtney]

With this person. Since I was 18. We're now 28. We're now. We're not really sure if we're ready to settle, but by day you've been settled, you have been settled down. Have you seen.

[Renee]

Who was it Pick? Cristiano Ronaldo and his girlfriend.

[Courtney]

I'm not really into what's going on.

[Renee]

Girl into girl. Like, so they did an interview together.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Okay.

[Renee]

And they were like, oh, so you know, you have like three kids together. Like together.

[Courtney]

They're not married.

[Renee]

They're not married.

[Courtney]

Baby. Okay.

[Renee]

And his response? She was like, oh, you know, obviously she does have the desire to get married.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

He goes, I'm just waiting for that click. It could be three months.

[Courtney]

With the first pregnancy, nothing clicked. With baby two, nothing clicked. In the 17,000 years you've been wasting my time. You were still waiting to hit. That's what's going to make you propose me.

[Renee]

Because I'll break your leg.

[Courtney]

That click. And I'm like, the click of a gun could make it. Well, that.

[Renee]

And I'm like, okay, cool.

[Courtney]

What?

[Renee]

Don't. To men that are watching that.

[Courtney]

Sorry.

[Renee]

Join bad guy. Hey, sisters. Interrupting the flow of a great conversation for a ding, ding, ding dilemma. Let's get into it. Hi, Courtney and Renee. I hope you're well. Apologies for the lengthy message. No need to apologize, girl. We've seen worse. But I need some advice. I've been seeing a guy for a while.

[Courtney]

Well.

[Renee]

And we were discussing moving towards marriage. Out of the blue, he mentioned he doesn't want kids, which shocked and hurt me, leading me to hanging up the call. Oh, girl. After apologizing, I asked him why he felt that way. He said his focus on personal and career growth, spiritual alignment, and unwavering love for his wife made him hesitant about parenting, fearing it would divide his affection and that he might not be good enough to provide a stable life for his kids. He did mention he's not rigid in his style. Chance, whilst I appreciate his honesty and understood his concerns, I found his reasoning somewhat shallow. As someone who has always envisaged being a parent and feeling fulfilled by having kids, this is a significant issue for me. He has since reassured me that we can have as many kids as we want. But I'm confused about whether to believe this or consider his initial reluctance. I'd really appreciate your views on this and the sisterhood community at large. Love from Kenya. Sending lots of love to our Kenyan sisters. We absolutely adore you. And thank you, sis, for sharing this dilemma. It sounds like a really deep one and quite a sensitive one as well. So thank you for your transparency and sharing how you felt, but also how he felt. Now, first and foremost, both of you are actually very entitled to your feelings and your emotions. Let's talk a little bit about your partner first. It is very, very normal to have that kind of reaction. I think it sounds as though there are a bit of traumas, some very, very negative emotions that he might have around parenting, around having kids. And I think it's wonderful that he actually, upon conversation and probing deeper, actually revealed that the real reason he doesn't want kids or initially had said he was not interested in having kids is because of his fears. And I think they're actually quite legitimate concerns that anybody might be having. So career growth, spiritual alignment, you know, trying to actually have enough Enough time, energy and capacity to be able to show affection to his wife. These are all fears that are quite legitimate and very, very normal. Quite a. You'd be surprised at how many people feel this kind of way, especially when it comes to kids. And the reality of the matter is having kids can impact all of these different things. So very, very legitimate in some of his thoughts, his emotions and feelings towards that. And whilst it is great that he said, you know, this is not something he's super rigid in, in, I think it may be worth continuing to have some conversations and continuing to see the ways in which you can dig deep into some of those fears. It may mean that he actually requires a little bit of support, whether it be counseling or some kind of support, in order to process some of the fears that he has around having kids. And I think this would be a great opportunity for you as his partner to do that, if that is something that you would be down to do. Come into uses, love that you want to be a parent and have always envisaged having kids. That's a beautiful thing. And a lot of people have a strong desire to be a parent, so it's beautiful that you've been able to have this. I would encourage a little bit of empathy. I definitely understand how it can come across as a little bit shallow in that being someone like yourself who has always envisaged having kids, it can feel like, you know, kids being a big parity. There's nothing that could really trump that. But I do think that it's worth showing a little bit more empathy towards your partner, especially because the root of some of his concerns are actually rooted in fear. And that's quite a vulnerable thing to do and a vulnerable thing to process with your partner. So I do think that there's light at the end of the tunnel. I do think that this is something that could potentially be worked out, or at least something that you guys may need to process because this is a big thing. Having a family is very much a big thing. And. And it may warrant further conversations to really decide if this is something that both of you want before you progress with your relationship. Especially because kids are a very, very big commitment and it's very important that both of you are aligned, especially because marriage is your desire and family is a desire that both of you have expressed. Again, very normal to be going through this, but it does warrant continued conversation, continued probing, continued support. It may be worth also getting a third party doesn't necessarily have to be therapy, but it may be helpful to get a trusted mentor or advisor to kind of broker the conversation between you two, if you feel that's necessary. Would definitely recommend. But just to send some affirmation. This is very, very normal, and it is something quite deep, but important that both of you come to a place of understanding for each other. So sending lots of love to you, sis, and would definitely welcome some of the sister's thoughts on the dilemma. But back to the conversation for the.

[Courtney]

Man that's been dating you for nearly. I don't know how long they've been dating, to be fair, that they have three. Three kids. But for him to say, I don't feel a spark. There's no spark with you. To your face in the public domain. For him to say, I don't feel that.

[Renee]

Just leave that click.

[Courtney]

So I mean that I've been here. What am I?

[Renee]

What you ain't. It's not click.

[Courtney]

Am I just a placeholder for what? That's insane. Crazy work.

[Renee]

It's just the click.

[Courtney]

But, yeah, men have been waiting too long.

[Renee]

But. But. But also, I want to caveat and say that this is the exception. Cristiano Ronaldo is a very wealthy man.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

He exists in a different stratosphere.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

There are men who are asking for prenups who are out here talking about, I want to be in a relationship for 10 years before I commit. And I'm like, but me and you as a woman, I'm working the same hours as you.

[Courtney]

I feel more badly making more money. You didn't see me here talking about updated a girl ticker. Because really. Cuz. Really, Cuz really?

[Renee]

That's what it is.

[Courtney]

That's what it is. I'm your sugar me. I'm your sugar mommy. That is insane.

[Renee]

So this is actually unsettled to you?

[Courtney]

Genuinely, I'm a bit confused because in the. No, because in the. You actually are letting him go off too, lately. Cristiano, I know that you listen to this podcast. Podcast so, so often, so maybe you're gonna hit this one Sunday. But just say, I'm protecting my wealth. I would respect that more than. Than stringing somebody along because my. I will never get my head around why we think having. And this is an online rhetoric as well, take this out of Cristiano Ronaldo, why we think having a child with someone is lower commitment than marrying them.

[Renee]

So I asked one of my male friends this question because I was very confused. Now I have to caveat. He said, Said, it's not reflective of me. I want. I want to settle down with one woman I'm a one woman man. But he said marriage stops you from being with another woman.

[Courtney]

We've seen many examples. Okay, there we go.

[Renee]

But having kids with one woman doesn't stop you from having kids with another.

[Courtney]

Woman, but it does make you a minister.

[Renee]

And when he said that, I was like, did you think you dropped something close.

[Courtney]

But I get, I get the thinking, I get it.

[Renee]

But it's like, like, wow, that is such doggish behavior.

[Courtney]

And that's why society is corrupted. No, that's why society is corrupted. Because if you think like, oh, it's fine for me to have a child with you, I can just leave you and the child behind. That is why society has a problem.

[Renee]

And this is also why women do not want to have kids.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

Because they know that the lion's share of responsibility will be on them.

[Courtney]

But you know what I've been even seeing and this isn't to be just I know that not everyone has a very linear, traditionally linear life. Right. I says there are some people who are going to have kids and they're going to break up, going to find something, you get married. It absolutely happens. But I think this thing that's trying, people are trying to normalize in that it doesn't. Having children with the person is not that deep. It's getting married to them that's that deep. That is a lie from the pit of hell. Let me tell you that now you fuse it yourself literally in DNA with someone in the product to result in another human being. This person has be raised madness. This person has to see you and see you move on, maybe never see you again, bro. They're going to look at you and be like, where's my dad? Or where's my mom?

[Renee]

Or never showed up.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I'm saying? And what that leads people to do, even if you're cohabiting, what it leads people to, to become in their life outcomes, having parents that are separated or divorced, like let's just look at normal statistics. It doesn't work.

[Renee]

And you know what also like grinds my gear is a lot of guys will talk about legacy when it comes to having kids. They just want to have as many kids as possible to pass on their hither to unknown legacy before this legacy you speak of, there's not much to back it up anyway. And yet one of the best things, if not one of the best predictors of your success is the type of family you come from. Absolutely surely if you were really concerned about your legacy and actually, you know, standing the Test of time. You would do everything in your power to create a stable family unit for your legacy to survive. Having kids is not just legacy building. It's not just empire, period. You're actually sending menaces into society.

[Courtney]

There we go. That is not a legacy. That's not. No. That you want to. It's a bad one actually.

[Renee]

Really.

[Courtney]

There we go. The stories that will be told of you. God help. God help.

[Renee]

And it's like, and it's unfortunate because when we even look at the life expectancy and the life experiences of men at the end of their lives, they're the lonely ones. Ones.

[Courtney]

That's the reality they don't sit with. That is the reality they don't want to sit with. And I think that that even brings a bigger point as to why some women are choosing to be child free. They also know that they will still have community. Yeah, right. So like for a while centuries, having children was your guarantee that in your years where you will need caregiving, it will be given to you because of obligation. You are my child. You must take care of me. You know, so if there are medical bills, if there is a need for, if, if I can no longer take care of myself sufficiently, and I'm talking practice, eating, bathing, sustaining. You are there because you're my child. You have a responsibility. But I think a lot of women, they again. And this is why I want to correct, like my earlier statement, because you do invest in other things which are responsibilities like sisterhood and community building and you know, just showing up for people, continually showing up for people. You know that you will have a village, right? So you, those, those children you are aunties to, they will come back and be like, oh, that's my auntie. Or that's my. I'm gonna go and help my auntie today. I'm gonna go and help my uncle today. Because they are a. And they have invested in me, I'm going to invest back to them. Like I have aunties, they can call me now. I will give them the same amount of honor, time and energy as I would my own mother. Because you are, you have been a mother to me. You've been a part of my village. And so they know that because they've done that intentional community building work, when they get older, they will not be left high and dry. I don't think men can say the same because you not only have some men, let's say, not only have you gone around sewing your, you know, you know, not only have you gone around sewing your wild oats. Like a fool, just throwing them here and there. Your children hate you. The children. The oats that you sowed have rotten. They've. They've rotted.

[Renee]

This again. They're gonna come.

[Courtney]

They really hated me when I said it the first time. They really hated it when I said it the first time. But again, I point the finger back to examples. Case study. The. What do we call, like the. Oh, there's a word that I'm looking for that would make this sentence very sweet for me. The patriarchs of. The patriarchs of your movement and your philosophy.

[Renee]

Give it to us.

[Courtney]

Have not lived the life you aspire to live. It sounds cool. Yeah. Sleeping with anything that boobs. It sounds nice. Being a man of many women. It sounds so fun. Being a man who can say with my power of my seed, I have 70 children. Sounds nice. But when you live it practically, when you a. You hit the age of maybe, let's say 72. What do you have to show for these many things and escapades? Women that hate you.

[Renee]

Oh.

[Courtney]

In fact, if you were poisoned today, you wouldn't even know who to point to. The suspects are many.

[Renee]

It might even be included.

[Courtney]

The children that despise you. They don't even know your name. If they. If they now say to one of your children, where's your dad's passport? They know what is. We don't know. What are your dad's allergies? I don't know. What's his favorite color? Does that man even see color?

[Renee]

We don't know when one of the kids goes on to be like an artist. Now there's a song about it.

[Courtney]

There we go. You have a whole album dedicated to you. Where are you now? But I think to myself, women often don't have these issues because we pour into community. Men. Men are being coached. And I'm not going to say it like they're villain. I think social narratives are coaching them into acting this way. Men are being taught to pour into themselves. And then when they can no longer supply their own needs, they have nowhere to go. They have nothing to withdraw from. And so let's all just be guided. And I think, like you said, that is why women are also being. Especially if society is telling us you are the one responsible for how the family goes. Okay, I'm going to take that responsibility. How about I have no family? How about I don't create a new family? Maybe I just live in the one that I'm in. Or maybe all of my family is made up of platonic connections. You know, Bye, Vanessa. Bye. Yeah, wait for her to close the door. Oh, she's so cute. Maybe my family is made up of purely platonic connections. You know, that's. That's fine. And that's enough for me because I know in the future I will not feel unfulfilled. And I think that brings us to that, like the last point. I think women are redesigning what fulfillment looks like for them in the future. I think for a long time, we've been told, children will fulfill you, marriage will fulfill you. And I think we're beginning to see. I don't know if that's necessarily the case. Well, distinction. Being a good marriage might or be a part of your fulfilling life. And what do you think about that? What do you think about women who are deciding that, like, I'm actually going to divest from these traditional narratives of fulfillment? Man. Where do you think they are now finding fulfillment? Because it's often the whole, oh, you're doing it because you want to be a career woman. But sometimes career isn't fulfilling. So where are people finding their fulfillment?

[Renee]

Career is just one. Career is just one element that people can find fulfillment from. Some people actually just like living their life without the family unit, and that's actually okay. I don't know why people really struggle with this concept. Maybe it's because, as you mentioned, it's been peddled so much that success is literally. That success is literally part and parcel with having a family, being a wife, being a mother. These are beautiful things. But as women, we are very multifaceted. And because we are multifaceted, we find joy from many things. And it's the amalgamation of that. It is building, literally finding blocks and creating a life from these different blocks that brings you fulfillment. So it's not necessarily having a gaping wound and plugging it with something else, as many people would assume. So, oh, you don't want to have kids, so you're just going to fill that gaping hole or that wound with your career? Not necessarily. Because we've seen time and time again how unfulfilling being a career woman can be as well. It is in the amalgamation. It's in the creating a life on your terms. It is in the having the soft morning routines. It is in the going to have a nice little theater lunch and brunch by myself.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

It is in the fulfilling relationships that we have with our friends. It's in the fulfilling relationships we have with our family. Heck, even romantic relationships, because there are the. I think they call them dinks, the Dual income.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

You can have that and live life. And that's great. You know, there are even alternatives that people may be open to later down the line. So, for example, people may decide, I don't want to have kids now, but I'd love to be a foster carer later down the line. We need those people. We actually need those people. Good. And so it really is understanding that your life's fulfillment could not have come from those things alone anyways.

[Courtney]

Good.

[Renee]

And so it really is a unfixing and a reorienting. It's not about necessarily replacing, but it's really about reorienting your life completely so that you can find fulfillment in all of these different things. That is the woman's calling. It is to. This is one element of what God has called you to. There are so many others. It's expansive and, and even for, you know, people that are mothers, your life actually can't, like, it can't revolve around your kids forever.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Your kids will grow up and leave. We've seen that, We've seen that. We don't even have time to talk about in this episode. But like, literally emptiness, you know, like, your kids will grow up. Your life could never have been this one thing anyways. And that's the lie that is like we're told that we as women must be one dimensional. And the fulfillment for women, I hope and I believe and pray in the 21st century is, as you've mentioned actually before, my cup is full.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Because I drink from many wells. And that's, that's, that's life. That's actual real life in abundance. It's knowing that you have multiple places to drink that water of life satisfied.

[Courtney]

That's so good. I like that. I really, really like that. And I think it's also like, I think women, whether they're choosing to have kids, choosing to have kids later in life or choosing to not have them at all. Yeah. I think what this, this movement is kind of showing is women are taking having kids seriously.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

They are realizing that, hey, whatever the situation is, I want to create a safe environment. I want to create a stable environment for this child, these children, or myself. And what that looks. And especially even if in the context of. Because we often talk about women having children and it being at the expense of their own safety, their own stability and their own provision. But actually, I think women are focusing on, before I have these kids, I want to make sure that when I have these kids, I'm not going to be at a loss Because I had kids.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

And I'm also not going to be at a loss because I did not have kids as well. And so it's women taking seriously that, hey, life is about my wellness, life is about my growth, life is about my development. And in the context of motherhood, that looks like providing my, my children with a stable marriage or a stable father, like mentally, physically, emotionally stable. It looks like providing them with a stable mother.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And me being, me doing the healing, me making sure that maybe I don't repeat patterns that I was exposed to. So I'm going to invest in doing the work to build that stability in myself, that emotional regulation, that maturity, that ability to be a safe haven for someone else and for myself. So that when this child comes into the picture, all things going to plan by God's grace, I also don't lose my mind. Right. And so it's me. Yeah. Because this is, this is the reality of it. I think we're also seeing that. Listen, having kids, like you said, it doesn't make life hunky dory. It doesn't. But it can make life more fulfilling when you've got the foundations in place.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so let me do the foundational work. And so that does mean I need to maybe work a bit harder, take some money, go to therapy or invest in something, some stock somewhere or some pension or whatever so that I can make sure I'm my best self before I bring children into this picture so that my children can get the best of me. And I think women doing that has meant that they're taking a bit more time, they're being more considered with the partner that they pick. And so overall I think it's good. I do think the caveat is let's not demonize having children and let's not also act as though we're ignorant to the biological realities. Because let's be honest, the quality of your pregnancy and your eggs may not be the best in your 40s as.

[Renee]

Also extra caveat mandem. Oh, big time sperm quality.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Oh, that's even a conversation for. Because even studies coming out proving that the quality of sperm really matters, the health of another thing to think about when you're thinking about the father of your kids. Like he actually needs to be on his A game as well.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

You're literally directly impact even things like preeclampsia.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Like morning sickness. The actual quality of my pregnancy and my experience of pregnancy usually comes down to the quality of that man's sperm.

[Renee]

It can't be this man that don't want to, he don't want to marry me. He out here drinking Don Julio every single night, huh?

[Courtney]

Not Don Julio.

[Renee]

And you know when I say, you know exactly who I'm talking about, you know it.

[Courtney]

I get it. I get it. Exactly. You. I think women are just taking a bit more time to make sure whatever I choose, I do it in the best way.

[Renee]

Yes.

[Courtney]

And that is really respectable.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Really, really respectable. And I think we shouldn't despise having children. I think if you desire to have children, consider the cost.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And do the work to be able to pay that price. And it will be a beautiful thing. And if you don't want to have children as well, consider the cost.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And be okay to pay that price as well. And I pray everyone flourishes.

[Renee]

Precious. Amen.

[Courtney]

In whatever decision that they make. And also, don't do anything out of fear.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Don't do anything out of fear. Like, especially in a time where maybe people are being, oh, we don't like kids, don't have kids. It's not great to have kids, whatever. But now it's like, oh, maybe I don't want to have kids because I don't want to be judged or maybe I've heard all these things, but maybe it won't be your experience. And similarly, don't have kids just because people are fear mongering and doing up. If you don't have kids, what have you done with your life? Life? That's not. I'm not going to be motivated by fear to bring human.

[Renee]

Can you imagine the world?

[Courtney]

So don't let fear motivate you either.

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

I like how that conversation.

[Renee]

That was actually delightful.

[Courtney]

Let us know your thoughts in the comments. So sis, we hope that you have enjoyed this conversation. We know that there is a lot going on in the Internet streets and sometimes it feels like trends can be overwhelming and they can begin to influence the choices you make about your future future. But remember that they are only a resource. They should only kind of aid and help in helping you make a decision for your own life. And when it comes to this child free conversation or delaying having kids, it really comes down to the legacy you want to leave and what you would consider a fulfilling life. And so for this episode's reflective activity, we want you to just sit down, open up your journal and begin to to ask yourself, what do I want my legacy to be? What does it look like? Does it have children in the picture? Doesn't it? What do I want to have left in the world. And we also want you to then think, what does a fulfilled life look like for me? Not based on the Internet, not based on other people's expectations, not based on culture, but genuinely based on happiness, joy and peace. What does a fulfilled life look like when I get to, I don't know, 80? What do I want to look back and say I've done with my life? And sometimes that's all you need to give you a vision for your future and kind of direct you in terms of what you are going to build no matter what everyone else is doing. It helps you to decide what you want to do with your life and ultimately that's all you're going to be held accountable for. And so Sis, we hope that you enjoyed this. We hope that if you want to join the Sisterhood and see more conversations like this, you would subscribe to our YouTube channel to my Sisters and you would also follow the podcast on any kind of streaming platform, whether it be Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to your podcast. We show up here every Sunday at 8pm UK time. And if you want to keep up with us across social media and just get to know more about what we're doing here at tms, you should follow us on all social media channelsomysisterhood. You can also follow us individually, you can follow my bestie enee Capua, and you can also follow me dwarting and be sure to sign up to their mailing list if you want some exclusive news and just updates as to what's happening in the sisterhood. Of course you get the online content, but there's also a whole community that we want you to plug into. Come to our events. You can join our weekly live streams. Just head to our website to my sisters.com to find out more information on how you can be a part of what's happening around the world with To My Sisters, we really, really love you. We pray that this episode was a blessing to you in some way and it has given you something to think about. And no matter what you do, we hope that you will be fruitful. Whether that fruit looks like children or whether it looks like some other legacy in the world, we are behind you and we are praying for the absolute best of you and your purpose. So we will see you in our very next episode. Stay tuned as well. Always keep glowing and growing. Foreign.

[C]

This is Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Boost Mobile is no longer that prepaid wireless company you remember. They've invested billions into building their own 5G towers across America with Boost Mobile's networks, customers enjoy the speed and service they'd expect from the Big Three, plus groundbreaking benefits you'd only get from a true challenger of the industry. Boost Mobile will let you try the network risk free for 30 days.

[Courtney]

Days.

[C]

So visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us online at boostmobile. Com today.