← To My Sisters
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- [00:00]
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- [00:38]
Courtney
And in today's episode, we are going to be talking about decentering men and building a life that doesn't revolve around romance.
- [00:47]
Renee
Oh, get them out of here.
- [00:48]
Courtney
With this rising trend of decentering men, the aim is for women to cultivate joy, ambition outside of men.
- [00:57]
Renee
When we center men, or when we allow something to be centered that we don't necessarily have a say in, we can often feel like a caged bird.
- [01:04]
Courtney
Maybe they have put this unspoken pressure on you to, like, constantly be prim and proper because a man could be watching.
- [01:13]
Renee
Girl, we're decentering men. We're getting rid of men.
- [01:15]
Courtney
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [01:17]
Renee
Getting rid of men. It's not. Decentering men is not about getting rid of men completely. It's about changing their position in your life.
- [01:25]
Courtney
You finally get the man whose gaze you've been trying to satisfy. And you know, that culture has told you this is the sort of man that exists. This is the thing that a man wants. And then you get the man that God has given you. And it's like, he's not like that.
- [01:38]
Renee
Oh, no.
- [01:39]
Courtney
You know? And now what?
- [01:46]
Renee
Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.
- [01:49]
Courtney
And I'm Courtney. And we are your online sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.
- [01:53]
Renee
Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters across across the world.
- [01:59]
Courtney
And in today's episode, we are going to be talking about decentering men and building a life that doesn't revolve around romance.
- [02:07]
Renee
Oh, get them out of here. Yeah.
- [02:09]
Courtney
You know, as two people who are actually getting married this year, I thought it would be a great conversation to talk about this online trend that is decentering men and living a life where you're not just completely obsessed with whether men like you, when men want you, which I actually think is sometimes a subconscious thing a lot of us have internalized.
- [02:29]
Renee
Yeah.
- [02:30]
Courtney
In our lives. So hopefully this Conversation is one which helps the girlies to figure out how to live a life that's full of joy outside of romantic love. Even if romantic love is actually present in your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very. So my first question is, what are some of the subconscious ways that you think society has programmed women into centering men?
- [02:55]
Renee
Yeah.
- [02:55]
Courtney
In the first place.
- [02:56]
Renee
That's a great question. And I love the fact that you started with subconscious, because, as you mentioned, it's very easy for people to think that it's a conscious thing. Right. Pick me's are running rampant across the Internet streets as well as in person. But oftentimes we don't clock that. We center men in the more subconscious ways rather than the conscious ways. And I think it's very important to drop in the term male gaze, which is something that a lot of people are familiar with. It's something that's been thrown around. I believe it was coined in 1975. And it basically speaks to the ways in which masculinity, malehood, men have been centered not just in our individual relationships, but actually society at large. So the different spheres that this can play out in, it can play out in the media, it can play out in our fashion choices. It can play out in our careers and the way that we are viewed in all sorts of different landscapes, especially within a professional setting. Women who feel as though, you know, they have to compromise at work, especially because they are often scared, either consciously or subconsciously, about the way that they are being perceived and that, a lot of people don't realize is a function or rather a consequence of the male gaze. Because essentially, the male gaze trains us to be hyper conscious of the way that we're being perceived, not just by men, but also women that have internalized the male gaze. So in the back of our minds, we're constantly thinking, how am I being received at work? Am I being too pushy? Am I being too aggressive? Am I being. Being, to insert adjective that we often associate with masculinity. And it's a shame because especially with things like patriarchy and the predominance of men and a lot of, like, institutional spaces that actually prioritize men in these spaces, these are often the traits that are helpful to helping you get ahead in the professional space. So it's not necessarily a bad thing to be aggressive or individualistic, especially in the professional workspace, because a lot of us need to do that in order to get ahead in our careers. But oftentimes, as women, we second guess ourselves because those are, again, associated with Masculinity, and therefore we don't want to be perceived wrongly. So we're constantly thinking about, okay, how are we being perceived? Whereas for a lot of men, they're not thinking about that at all. They're literally just existing.
- [05:13]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [05:14]
Renee
So that's one of the ways that subconsciously the male gaze can play out, at least in the professional space. It's that hyper consciousness of how am I being perceived by people around me? Other places that it can play out in media. I think social media is such a big one, and probably one of the more obvious ones. Right. It is making sure that you are presenting yourself in a way that is desirable, whether or not you have a romantic partner or not. So for the single ladies I know, again, there's the extremities of the pick Misha, which is the girl that is, you know, taking the unpopular, controversial opinions where she is basically supporting a lot of masculine, I guess, thoughts and feelings that a lot of folks portray online. And not necessarily because she agrees with them, but more so she wants to be picked or she wants to be seen again, in a positive light by men. That is for the pick mishas, that's their own that they need to unpick. And I wish you were the best in such endeavors. But it even comes down to, I know we banter about it, but the angles that we decide to portray ourselves or the angles we decide to use on social media, so the way that we pose for pictures to try and flaunt certain body parts because we know that the mandam are going to be looking whether we want to admit it or not. There are certain ways that women can portray themselves because they want to come across as desirable. It may not be that they're consciously thinking, oh, like I'm putting myself out there because I know mandem are watching. But it's so ingrained in us sometimes that we know that, you know, this is popular. But I think when we do a deep dive as to why are these things actually popular, where is the root? Where is the root of, you know, angling yourself in a certain way so that we can see a little bit more bum and breast? We can trace it back to the male gaze too. Really? Really, really. And it's tough because nobody wants to feel like they are pandering to desirability politics. And I think there's also a conversation that needs to be had about the fact that there are very real, I guess, privileges to being desirable. Like, it's not just about pandering to the male gaze for the fact of pandering, it's understanding that you actually get access by pandering to the male gaze. Right. So the baddies on social media, it's not just about being desirable for desirability sake. They get access to resources, they get access to opportunities. It really is a deeper thing about positionality as well and goes above and beyond just making sure that guys think that you're cute. It actually opens up a whole bunch of resources that have been positioned that way and are in alignment with the male gaze. We've spoken about this when we talked about one of our episodes where we talked about like BBL culture and surgery and all of that stuff. It's not just about surgery for surgery's sake, but understanding that as women operating in a male dominated society, aligning yourself to the male gaze and desirability politics means that you have access to resources, not just access to top tier men, but actually access to, you know, financial incentives. You get access to media opportunities, you get access to a whole myriad of opportunities by virtue of just being desirable. So those are some of the ways, non exhaustive list, but some of the ways that subconsciously we can pander to or we find ourselves in the space of I guess, pandering to the male gaze. Yeah, but yeah, I would love to hear what you think as well.
- [08:49]
Courtney
Yeah, I think you've really illustrated how it manifests and like that's really accurate I think to what we see depicted in professional spaces and the social media space as well. I think when it comes to programming like the subconscious way society has programmed us, I think one, it's through a lot of cultural narratives we've been taught around preparing ourselves for marriage from a really, really young age and kind of being subconsciously taught that as a woman a lot of value. And we, we've talked about this before but about this actualization of your womanhood only really coming to fruition when you've gotten married or found a partner. And so for a lot of us, we grow up with that being our North Star of like, you know, as West African children. It's always when you get to your husband's house, when you get to your husband's house, this idea that like you'll progress from your father's house to your husband's house inherently puts men at the center of your belonging. And I feel like for a lot of us we've grown up with that at the back of our mind to some degree. You know, you're learning to so that you can be a better wife. You're learning to clean so that you can be a better wife. It's never just about your own self care. It's never just about, you know, being a functional adult. It's attached so much to your relationship to a man. I could definitely testify that as an African daughter. However, I think for a lot of us it's also in the movies that we watch, like the western films that we've watched. And you know, it's the Disney complex. It's the forever, you know, happily ever after. It's the princess in a tower coming to get saved by the prince. You know, everyone grows up thinking I want a prince Charming. You know, and it's quite rare that you'd find someone who from a young age is very cognizant of being rebellious of that.
- [10:30]
Renee
Yeah.
- [10:30]
Courtney
And so for a lot of us, our experience is maybe it's not until we hit like 16, 17, 18, where we become more privy to things like political, social and political issues that we actually start rebelling against things like that and those kind of narratives and social pressures. So that's a good amount of our life in our formative years which has been framed by, wait for your Prince Charming to come with the glass slipper, kind of Cinderella and, and Snow White and all of these other people who kind of show you that like life is good, but it's better when you find a man or when the man finds you. And so I think we all grow up, you know, we have our crushes on our celebrities and we do all of these things. And I think even through like finding our identity in those teenage years, I feel like a lot of the coming of age story revolves around wanting to be liked. Like a lot of what we see in films, in shows, in like our favorite things to watch is people dating people trying to be light people. You know, I think to like that's so Raven. I think to friends, I think to like all these shows that we grew up kind of watching where it's the girl has a crush and she, she wants the guy, but she wants the guy to want her. And it's a huge part of our coming of age story sometimes as like teenage girl where it's like no, we actually want to be wanted. And I think that can, sometimes we become, we can become hyper focused on that and that becomes such a huge part of our self esteem. I think that's just some of the ways we, we see it played out. You know, like I remember when Tiwa was having her episode with on Confidence and she was saying like who said that insecurity has to be a rite of passage for teenage girls. And I think it's very similar.
- [12:12]
Tiwa
So I was like, okay, let me serve in church. So I started serving as a youth leader in church. And so every Friday, I would go and hang out in this little basement in a community center and just talk with girls that were age 16 to 17. And I noticed that they had the same issues that I had back when I was a teenager. So rewind. Before the job in Oxford, Tiwa, as a teenager, was very insecure. Her mind was very negative. She literally lived on the approval of other people. Like, my whole existence was, I have to prove my worth through my grades, or I have to prove my worth by other people liking me. And that was the world I existed in. So my mind was so messy because it was so negative, but I just thought, oh, my mind is my mind. There's nothing I can do about it. That's just the way things are. So that's the mind I was living with and carrying on with until I had my aha moment, which we can talk about later. But, yeah, so I got there, and I'm seeing the girls are insecure and not confident, and I'm like, how is it that almost 10 years later, the issues I had at 16, 15, 13, the same issues I'm seeing in another generation of girls, I was like, this is. This is not okay. Why has society normalized girls being insecure?
- [13:33]
Courtney
Yes.
- [13:33]
Tiwa
It's not a rite of passage to hate yourself.
- [13:36]
Renee
Oh, that's so good.
- [13:37]
Courtney
Hello.
- [13:38]
Tiwa
Because we are actually born loving ourselves. So at some point, the world teaches us to hate ourselves because it sends us messages like, you need this. Then you'll be worthy.
- [13:48]
Courtney
Like, for a lot of us, centering the male gaze was a rite of passage as a teenage girl, you know, and so I think for. For the majority of us, we haven't actually unlearned those subconscious, embedded thoughts around. If men like me, that boosts and bolsters my confidence. Or, you know, I want to be so desired for a man because it fulfills a longing in my womanhood. Right. Or that's when I'll actually feel like, yes, I've made it in society. And I think it causes women to hold themselves back because they don't want to be scary. They don't. And as you were saying, like, they don't want to be scary. They don't want to be the one that no one wants. They want to be picked. Right. And. And it's a huge part of feeling like you're good enough. Like, if we're gonna keep it real, a lot of people want to feel like they're just good enough. And, like, if you're somebody as well, who you. You want that attention or like, you like men, like, and you want them, and that's completely fine, and you want them to like you. It's like, why they like me? You know, it can become a sense, a huge root of your insecurity and your doubt and, like, fear, like, genuine fear comes up in you, which is, am I ever gonna find someone? Is anyone ever gonna want me? And so sometimes I find that because of fear, people play more into these things, and they evolve into pick me's and they do all of these things. And so because of that, we've been seeing a lot of people online talking about how in order to live a life really full of joy for women, they need to start decentering men. Because for a lot of us, the centering of men is actually at the root of a lot of our dysfunctional relationships with other women. Yeah, right. So it affects our relationship sometimes with matriarchs. So our mothers, our aunties, our godmothers, whatever. Like, older figures in your life, maybe they have put this unspoken pressure on you to, like, constantly be prim and proper. Because a man could be watching girls, you know, get yourself together, make sure your hair's done, your nails done, and suddenly it's like you're being surveilled because of men. And even if the men aren't present, the women are doing the surveillance. So for a lot of us, it really does bring dysfunction into our female relationships. For some of us as well, it's hard to coexist with your own peers who are women who are maybe men obsessed or boy obsessed, because it's like all they talk about is men. All they talk about is romantic relationships. And maybe you don't want to do that. Maybe you want to talk about politics, you know, the economy, a bit of chin wax. You know, I think there's this interview with Jaden Smith where it's like. And then all my friends will be talking about the latest, and I think we should all think about the state of the world's economy, literally. Is that, like, we should all be thinking about different things? So with that being said, why do you think a lot of. Actually, let me rephrase that question. With this rising trend of decenter, decentering men, the aim is for women to cultivate joy, ambition outside of men and the male gaze and satisfying it and being picked. And so how do women practically do that, though? Because you can hear really cool phrases. Decent to men, Decent to men. But like, how do you actually you do it and what is the aim of it?
- [17:15]
Renee
Yeah, no, that's such a beautiful question. I think, first of all, is understanding how the male gaze or how the obsession with men has impacted your life. Because I think first of all, it really impacts our lives very differently. I think you outlined a whole bunch of very relevant experiences that quite a lot of women resonate with, but sometimes we actually don't realize just how deep it goes. And as you were speaking, I was actually reminded of the poem by Maya Angelou, when the caged bird sings and when we center men, or when we allow something to be centered that we don't necessarily have a say in, we can often feel like a caged bird, right? It is. It functions almost like a prison in that everything that we see or everything that we do is encapsulated by whatever it is we've decided to center. So I think understanding. Okay, cool. Where has the male gaze actually infiltrated my life? Like, oh, am I the girl that is like boy crazy? Am I always constantly talking about, I went on a date with this guy and nobody is saying, sis, that you should not be talking about dates. It is necessary to do CRB checks, right? And also nobody is saying that you have to get rid of every single man in your life. Because I've also seen some interesting tiktoks and a whole bunch of really funny social media just posts where they're like, we're decentering men. We're getting rid of men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, getting rid of men. It's not. Decentering men is not about getting rid of men completely. It's about changing their position in your life. So how have you positioned men masculinity or the male gazed in a way that everything else that you do bows to it. And it really is about unfixing that foundation and removing that thing so everything else can thrive.
- [19:01]
Courtney
So good.
- [19:01]
Renee
It also reminds me of we're coming up with all the analogies it's given. You know, we're thinking. It also makes me think of like a tooth abscess, right? Like when you are in pain or if you've had a toothache, that thing hurts. And that's the only thing that you can think about. Like everything else pales in comparison. You're really just thinking about that tooth pain. But when you go to the dentist and they remove the abscess, sometimes they take away the tooth. It hurts for a While. But then you remember, ah, oh my gosh. The sensation of being able to eat again without thinking about the pain or the sensation of being able to speak without thinking about the pain. I think that's what unfixing the male gaze will feel like for a lot of people. It's getting rid of that pain or getting rid of that thing that they've had to focus on or hyper fixate on for so long that it's prevented them from really experiencing the true sensations that life has to bring them. So for a lot of us practically, it is an unfixing. It is looking at, for example, the way that you dress. One of our really good friends, Adela Afadi, she had spoken to us about, you know, dressing for the female gaze. Right. And she has like, she's literally fashion inspo guys like the way she dresses. Fantastic. But in doing that, it really is about going on the journey of self discovery. What are the things that I actually like and I actually value outside of how desirable I'm perceived to be? What does it feel like to actually focus on the sensations that bring me joy as well? And this will often be on a spectrum for some of us. We might be so far gone that it's actually very difficult for us to say, oh, I really like this outside of the male gaze, or I really like this outside of men. And again, this is not to remove men completely. I think there will always be a part of us as women, as individuals that will always want to be liked by other people. In essence, a lot of us just need to go on a journey of self discovery and really understanding or at least giving ourselves time and space to discover what are the things that bring me joy and really going, going full throttle on everything. I think you said earlier on how sometimes, you know, when we're pandering to the male gaze or when we are trying to be desirable, we hold ourselves back. And I think every woman should go through the process of going for it in at least one area of their life. Really going for it, no holds barred, no holding back and just experiencing what it feels like to do something for them. Yeah, because yeah, holding back is a real thing. And personally, something that I've experienced in so many different areas of my life where I haven't been able to experience the fullness of joy because I'm holding myself back. And it's very funny when we talk about like what you were saying earlier around, like, you know, us making sure that we're presentable and prim and proper, not realizing that especially in romantic relationships and the relationships that we desire to have the truest and most authentic relationships that you have with a man or even an individual, anybody will require you to get past the performance of the male gaze or the performance of patronage, patriarchy, the performance of being the perfect woman. If you're so focused on trying to present, well, what will happen when there's a chink in your armor? What will happen when the mask slips? What will happen when you don't have the energy to keep up appearances? The relationship will falter because you've actually presented yourself falsely. So it's actually necessary for us as women to really focus on creating a life for ourselves and creating a conception of ourselves where we exist outside of the performance, because that's actually what's going to help us the most in these romantic relationships, but also in our friendships as well. And it sounds so, like, basic, but, sis, you gotta go outside and touch grass. You know, like, actually go outside and touch grass. Like, where are or rather, what are the key sources that are infiltrating or influencing you? If it is social media, sis, go outside. Like, put the phone down, go outside. If it is, you know, parental. Parental concerns, or if it's like, culture, get outside and engage with other people that are from different places and different cultures to you. I found just even interacting with folks that are very, very different to me from very different places, you realize that, wow, the way that they even interact with men or the way that they interact with patriarchy is so, so different. And sometimes it's about broadening your horizon to really understand, oh, my gosh, I'm going for a similar thing as this person, but they've interpreted it differently or, you know, it's impacting them differently. I think also just, yeah, like, spending time prioritizing, finding out what brings you joy. So if it is reading if it, you might want to put the romance novels down just for a season. Just for a season, and really spending time rediscovering yourself and seeing that as a worthwhile priority as well. That actually requires time during your week. And I think the last thing that I'll say is sometimes it's really good to do an audit and actually ask your friends to check you. So before being in a relationship, during being in a relationship, I oftentimes ask my friends, like, am I doing too much not to, like, censor me in terms of, like, you know, speaking about my relationship or speaking about the fact that I like men or this guy that I've, you know, fallen in love with or Whatever. But sometimes your friends can also give you a reality check and enable you to see things that you don't necessarily see. So it's like, okay, sis, do you think that I talk about boys a bit too much? Oftentimes a friend that will love you will tell you, babe, I love you so much.
- [24:36]
Courtney
But.
- [24:37]
Renee
But you seem to be obsessed with the mandam. Like you need to leave them alone. And that's really great information and that's really great insight that you otherwise would not have had had you not asked a question. So be curious. Like, ask your friends. Ask the people around you. Like, what do you, like, feel about me? What do you know about me? What are the things that I'm engaging in? Do you actually think that I talk about guys too much? Do you think that I'm dressing a bit? You know.
- [25:03]
Adela
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- [25:37]
Courtney
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger.
- [25:44]
Renee
Wait.
- [25:45]
Courtney
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- [25:58]
Adela
On your next campaign.
- [26:00]
Courtney
Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [26:09]
Renee
Do you really think that this is my personal style? Do you think that I'm dressing in a way to just catch mad? Like sometimes you have to have those real conversations with your friends.
- [26:16]
Courtney
Yeah. But.
- [26:17]
Renee
Yeah, that's what I would say. I would love to hear what you have to say.
- [26:19]
Courtney
Yeah, I completely agree. And I think even for somebody who may be wanting a romantic relationship, because I think it's not lost on me that like. Like, it's a desire and it's a good desire to actually have. And like you said, like, there's nothing wrong with liking men and wanting a man to like you back. Right? But I think that's. It's in that it's like the centering of men and the way that we are subconsciously and sometimes even like overtly programmed into bowing to kind of trains us to want to satisfy all men. And it's like, especially when we look at social media and digital culture, a lot of the conversations around men want this, men want that. And it's so generalized that you're now trying to, like, appease a general population. And that's what's so restrictive about it, because you can actually never please everybody. And I think because the wave of culture is always changing, what is in and what is out will always. It's like a revolving door. One day you're accepted, the other day they don't want you. You. Hey, sis. So before we get back to the conversation, you know, we had to help a sister out, so we have a ding, ding, ding. Say it with me dilemma. Okay, let's get into it. Hi, sisters. I need your help. Three years ago, I moved to a new city for university and met one of my best friends. From the start, he was attracted to me. Love that for you, babe. But I hesitated because he's not a Christian and I didn't want to be unequally yoked. Still, by the end of that summer, I had fallen in love. We became intimate, spent all our time together, and even my family adores him. My mum prays he'll come to Christ. Now, three years later, we live in the same city, travel together, share a friend group, and remain deeply connected, both emotionally and physically. But I feel increasingly unhappy. We act like a couple, but there's no title or commitment. I told him from the start I couldn't date him due to our faith differences, and he has no interest in exploring religion. Yet I've ended up in a pseudo relationship, compromising my faith while feeling hidden. I fear he'll never work because Christ isn't at the center. But he's also my best friend and my strongest support system in this city. So the thought of letting him go is heartbreaking. What should I do? I'd appreciate your prayers. Well, girl, our prayers are always with you. This one is a little bit of a tricky one because it has been such a long time since you guys met. It's been three to four years of you, like you said, being in a pseudo relationship. And I'm not gonna lie, girl, you are in a situationship and emotions can often become entangled when it comes to these kind of things. And so what I would actually say is, babe, you're gonna have to cut this one loose. I know, I know it's hard, but as much as this is your best friend, and you love him. And I'm sure y'all are having some good sex. Let's just call it what it is. This is not. This is not going to go anywhere, okay? Unless you are happy compromising on something which seems like a really big value to you, which is having a common and shared faith with your romantic partner. And so I'm sure he's an amazing person. But remember that relationships are built on shared values as well as great, great chemistry. And it sounds like you guys have great chemistry. Of course you've been able to build a budding friendship. But for you to say that you are deeply unhappy and you continue to be deeply unhappy, your romantic relationship shouldn't fill you with deep unhappiness. And I guess the challenge right now is you think you can't find anyone else, maybe. Or this guy is just so good that it feels like he's worth compromising on a really big thing for. And I think it requires you to ask yourself, is faith important enough to you or having a shared faith with your partner important enough to you? As a conviction to cut this one loose, Especially on the romantic side of things. Which one are you gonna trade? It's either you have a relationship with this guy, or you pursue having a relationship where you have a shared faith with this person. And I know your mom's praying for him, and our mom's prayers are always really effective. But honestly, faith is such a personal journey. You cannot pressure anyone into becoming a particular faith or following a certain religion. And so I wouldn't put all my eggs in the basket of him converting to Christianity because you may be disappointed. And also, you may be putting an unnecessary amount of pressure on him to come to what is a very personal religion for the wrong reasons, he may end up becoming a Christian just because he wants to satisfy you. And that's not really how this faith thing works. If he is going to come to Christ, let it happen organically. Let it not be, because you really want to be with him. And so, yes, continue to pray for him as a friend. But honestly, sis, I think you need to cut this one. Now, the more you're in a relationship with each other, the harder it will actually become. And especially because this is a relationship which is causing the both of you to compromise. Now, I'm not sitting here saying anyone is perfect girl, but if you know that you are violating something that's really important to you actually, such as maybe abstinence or just not crossing certain boundaries which you have set for yourself, and it continually happens all These travel trips that you're doing with your bestie. Stop it. You know, we have to stay at home, okay? We have to go with your girls. We have to tell this man to stay at home. And so I think as much as it's nice, as much as it's fun, too much compromise, too much unhappiness, too much impracticality, like this is actually quite impractical. And you're hoping on so many things which might not actually happen. So sis, I'm sorry to break it to you, but I think you have to start afresh. And my encouragement to you would be that there are many other men out there, like there are many other men out there who probably align with your values, who you can cultivate an amazing friendship with. And I would start that process of trying to date other people and kind of cutting, putting some more boundaries. I wouldn't say cut your friend off, but it may be hard to have a close friendship after you've had a situationship with someone. So you may have to also be prepared for your relationship with this guy you so dearly love to look very, very different. But it will all work out for you if you start making some big girl decisions, right? Start thinking what actually matters to you and what are you going to pursue and start taking the steps. Steps, date other people, tell people you're looking, tell your mom to pray for someone else to come into your life. That might be a better use of her prayers. So yes, sis, we are praying for you. We are sending you so much love and we hope that this helps. And so I think decentering men is such a beautiful thing because it allows your identity, self esteem and self worth to be rooted in something which is a lot more solid and a lot more consistent. Which is, is for us as believers, our identity in Christ. But even outside of that, just the genuine liking of our authentic self. Like I've gone on this journey, as you said, of self discovery. And I like the person who I actually am. And I don't feel like I don't, I need to change just because someone doesn't like me. I change when I realize that this is no longer in alignment with the woman that I dream of being. Right. And so I think this journey of decentering men and like as it's arisen as more of a trend and people mentioning it more on social media, I think it's actually, actually a call to women to fall in love with themselves outside of someone loving them. Right? And actually saying it's okay to want a husband to Want a boyfriend to want to be booed up. But that's not the be all and end all of life. You don't need to put your life on hold until you achieve that.
- [34:22]
Renee
Yeah.
- [34:22]
Courtney
And even seeing it as an achievement is another issue. Right. You don't need to see your life as incomplete because you aren't in a romantic relationship. And also, like you were saying, this man doesn't have to be whether you're even married to him or not. Doesn't need to be the center of your whole world, but he can be a really nice part of it. Right. And I think for a lot of us, we've seen women lose themselves in relationships because even if they were doing the whole I'm on my self discovery, as soon as they are in a romantic relationship, they center that man in their whole life. And you know, it's seen as well, I'm just catering to my man. I'm just. And it's like, yeah, absolutely. But also, one make sure that is reciprocal because you deserve to take up as much space. Space in your romantic relationship to ask yourself, has he put you at the center of his world? And I think for a lot of men, like, they don't put their romantic partner at the center of their world. And that's not an unhealthy thing. I think it's because they've just learned to be individuals. And I think women need to learn that as well to like take a lot of pride in their individuality, even if they are in covenant or they, they are in union with someone else. Because it, it produces a really beautiful harmony which allows for you to steer away from, from, dare I say, like resentment of losing yourself in someone else. Right. And so I think it's a beautiful journey for women to go on. I think it can coexist with pursuing romantic relationships. And I think what it can look like practically is, okay, girls, I am trying to date. Okay. And so I'm going to be talking about men a little bit more in this season because I, I need to navigate this and I want your help, especially in, in terms of terms of how it affects our female friendships. But it's also saying, like you said, if I'm doing it too much, let me know I'm doing too much or make sure that I don't lose myself. Like, help me to make sure I don't lose who I am. And I think it's being intentional about making sure that every aspect in your life isn't this perfect curation to find the perfect spouse. Right. And Like, I've definitely seen especially in, like, you know, shout out to the daughters of Abraham in us, like, faith. Women of faith, Right? A lot of our life is preparing for. For her husband. I'm waiting for my husband. I'm waiting for my husband. And it's like, but, babe, you are all right now by yourself, right? And it's okay to want to go on dates. It's okay to, you know, do the. I'm. I'm strategically positioning. It's okay to do all of these things, but they cannot become your entire identity. They cannot become your sole purpose. Like, there's still talents and unique things in you and dreams that you have that you want to explore, that you don't need to put on hold because, oh, my gosh, I'm not married yet, or, oh, my gosh, I'm not a mum yet, or I haven't done these things, which are the quintessential markers and milestones of. Of womanhood. And so I think it's also detaching a lot of our milestones of success from romance. Yeah, right. So, like, a lot of us mark the milestones of our life. Wedding day, becoming a mom. Like, all of these things in a. Just like, yes, these are amazing things, like, beautiful things. And I understand why they will be milestones in life if you've experienced them. But we also shouldn't put all of our joy and hope onto those days, which for some of us may never come, you know? And it's not to say, like, that in a bad way, but it's also to say, have you found contentment outside of these things? A lot of women struggle to be content with their lives when they're single, because society tells us you being single is a problem. Or society tells us you having never gone on a date at 30 is a problem, or you being a virgin in your 20s or your 30s or even 40s, that's a problem. And it's like, why? Why is that problematized? Right? What? We live in a culture that is, to some degree hypersexualized, that hugely objectifies women. And so for a lot of women, they don't know how to just be outside of. Of the male gaze. And so I think it's a beautiful journey of just saying, like, as cliche as it sounds, I am enough outside of someone loving me. Like, I don't need someone to love me romantically because there is so much other love in your life. And I think it's that as well. It's like actually having a deep appreciation for the platonic love, the familial love, the spiritual love that exists within your life and your other community. That means that you're actually soaking all of that up. Even if you don't have a romantic relationship yet, and even when that romantic relationship comes into your life, you still have a deep appreciation for the variations of love that exist around you. Right. Like, now that I do have the man, I'm not just dashing away my friends, you know, now that I do have the man, I'm not just completely isolating myself away from community and places which have been bedrocks of affection and support for me. And so I think it's. That it's leaning into the different areas of love and. And allowing those to fill you up just as equally as romantic love. Because I think it actually allows your romantic love to flourish even more.
- [39:26]
Renee
Absolutely.
- [39:26]
Courtney
When you are not putting all this pressure on this one person, this one.
- [39:31]
Renee
Person who was never built with the capacity to support all of that. And as you were speaking, I was also reminded of the fact that internalized misogyny can play out so terribly in our relationship with other women as well. Right. Like the policing of women because of desirability, politics, the competition and comparison that occurs when our desires are so fixated on romantic relationships. The way that we can infiltrate, you know, romantic relationships, the way that we can pull each other down because our desire is so coached around wanting a man.
- [40:10]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [40:11]
Renee
Or wanting men in general. And so I love that you were talking about actually prioritizing platonic relationships and platonic friendships rather than deprioritizing them, or dare I say it, forsaking them for romantic relationships or the promise of a romantic relationships, because more time. It's not even like the man is not even necessarily in the picture, but we have still centered men in the way that we interact with our sisters. Oh, I can't hang around with her because, you know, I'm trying to get a man. I don't like the way that she dresses. It's in the, like, literally the smallest and the simplest things. And it's actually our job to make sure that. That we are pulling ourselves up on that. And we're actually prioritizing sisterhood as opposed to our desirability, especially in our friendship. So when you were speaking, I was just. I was just reminded of that and how, wow, like, it goes so, so deep to the point that it can actually cause us to forsake our other relationships too.
- [41:07]
Courtney
Yeah. And dare I even say, I think a lot of us see internalized, like Patriarchy in the way we interact with men. Yeah, right. Like, you finally get the man whose gaze you've been trying to satisfy. And you know, that culture has told you this is the sort of man that exists. This is the thing that a man wants. And then you get the man that God has given you, and it's like, he's not like that.
- [41:29]
Renee
Oh, no.
- [41:30]
Courtney
You know, and now what? Now you're all like, you know, you actually have to treat this man as an individual. And I think this is. This is something I always tell people. Like, you are not living for the satisfaction of all men. You are living for one man. Like, it's literally you're going to. If you practice monogamy, if you. You have to. The other lifestyles before. So if that's your ste. What I'm about to say doesn't apply. But if you are practicing monogamy, it's actually just one person. It's one person you have to understand. It's one person whose preferences you have to understand. It's one person who you have to adjust to. It's only one person you have to compromise with. Like, I'm really inspired. The other day, I was what. I'm reading the Bible, and it was like. I think it's Colossians, where it was like, you know, submit to your husband. And it's just. That's it. Submit to your own husband. Your own. Not every other man on Twitter, not every other man on Instagram, not every man with a podcast. Like, it's your own. Right? And I think it's that it's like, when we un. Internalize patriarchy, a lot of us project onto men that. But you should be like this. You should be like that because society has told us we should be like this. We should be. And so you spent your whole life fitting yourself into a box, and now you've met a man who's an individual, who's like, I like what I like. I am who I am. And you're like, no fit into society's definition of masculinity. Do you get me? Play your part. Because I've been fitting myself in this box of femininity, and it's kind of like a resentment, which is like, why don't you. Why don't you act like these other men? Because you've been taught all your life to act like these other women, and now there's like. Like, you. You kind of hate this man. You love him, but you're like. But I want you to be like him, you know? But the same way society tells us you as a woman should be like her, you know, be like Lori, be like all these people. And it's like, babe, the game doesn't give out rewards and prizes. I'm telling you it does. It just leaves you bitter and broke. So, yeah, that's what I would say. So I think it's realizing that none of these things actually benefit. Benefit either of us. Like, they actually don't benefit either us. And so, yeah, I think this conversation can go so far and so wide. And so it'll be good to hear the sisters feedback on it, jump into the YouTube comments, jump into the Spotify comments. But I think as we kind of wrap up and before we do our little new segment, I wanted you, we don't typically drop a like to my sisters dot dot dot in like non guest episodes, but I was thinking it would actually be really nice too. So, yeah, if you had to say something to a woman who you know is seeing these TikTok videos, like Babe, these sense a man, what would you say? What's your two my sisters?
- [44:18]
Renee
Who my sister is? That's a really good question. What would I say to a lady seeing all of these TikTok videos as well as Instagram? Because we haven't forgotten.
- [44:28]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [44:28]
Renee
That Tick Tock has been getting her her flowers and she should because she's a great, great place. Oh, okay. Okay. To my sisters, you are so much more than men. There is a whole life that is worth living that has men in it, but they don't need to be at the center. So spend time focusing your energy on holistically building a life that you will enjoy. Yes, it's so okay for you to like men, desire men, go out on dates with men, be friends with men, but make sure that you are not forsaking friendships. Make sure that you are drawing from multiple places when it comes to your happiness and joy and fulfillment. And make sure that you are building your life on something that has a firmer foundation than the mandem outside. That is what I would say.
- [45:21]
Courtney
I love that. That was really, really good. Oh, wonderful.
- [45:25]
Renee
Hey, sisters. We hope that you enjoyed the episode. What an epic conversation on all things things, male validation, decentering men, and making sure that you're actually pursuing a life that is on your terms, all about cultivating joy, happiness, and let's face it, peace. Because Omar, some of these men out here is not giving you or bringing you any form of peace. Now, before you go, one thing that we really prioritize here at the Sisterhood is making sure that you are practically equipped to enact some of the conversation, some of of the pointers, some of the nuggets that we were talking about across the conversation. Before we go, we want to leave you guys with a journal prompt as well as a key action that you can take away and take with you into the week. So this is a journal prompt for you guys whether you like to write, whether you like to create videos, whatever format makes sense for you. The question of the week is in what ways have you prioritized mail validation in in your life? And how would your decisions change if you decided to decenter men? What would your life look like? We really want you to journal on that particular reflective question and come up with a couple of pointers to really help you steer yourself, steer your life moving forward. And if you haven't already gotten a copy of the to my sisters book Sis, that's probably step one to decentering men in your life. So make sure that you get a copy of the tea CMS book. And we actually have an activity that is very much related to the reflective question and that is creating a personal manifesto. So if you don't have an idea of your values or the key kind of central tenets that you want to live by, a personal manifesto is your opportunity to do just that. It is essentially a code of conduct or a code to live by. What does it look like to live by life on your terms? And as part of that personal manifesto, we want you ladies to write down five key goals, key dreams, key things that you want to see in your life, whether it be this week or across the year. That decent Amen. So prepare to dream big this week and actually for the rest of the year as you write your personal manifesto and you write down those goals, those dreams, those ambitions that you may have put to the wayside because you've been centering men. All right, this is the year that we are stepping into all manners of fulfillment, of joy, of peace, of happiness and holistic well being. So sisters, we really hope that you enjoyed the episode and we are so looking forward to doing this steps with you. If you are looking for a community to hold you accountable as you put all of these things into action, you should join the digital sisterhood community that we have cultivated, aka the sisterhood. You can join by heading over to ww.tomysisters.com it will be a very cutesy, very big little button that you can click to join the sisterhood. We will also put the link below in the description so that you have easy access to that and of course you can stay updated with everything to do with To My Sisters. You want to stay up to date for things regarding tickets events. We've been enjoying ourselves and going around the town from South Africa to London to a couple more places on our radar. But if you want to be first to know then you should join our newsletter over at www.tomy sisters.com. hey the website is giving all around one stop shop for all things related to TMS. So make sure that you stay up to date there. You can also stay up to date re all things to My sisters by following us on all social media platforms. You already know the drill but if you are new around these side of the streets it is at To My Sisterhood on all platforms from YouTube to Instagram to Twitter to X to LinkedIn at to my Sisterhood. You will find us there. And of course if you want to follow our individual journeys, you can also do that. You can follow my wonderful, amazing bestie over at CD Barteng. And of course you can follow me over at Renee Kapuku. Now sisters, we are so so keen to hear your thoughts on the conversation. What are some of the ways that you feel like you have been centering male validation? What are some of the ways that you've seen some of your homegirls centering male validation? Now that will be really fun to find out. Please please please comment like it's hot down below in the comments. You can comment over on YouTube, YouTube and you can also comment over on Spotify. The Spotify girlies have really been eating it up and we have loved seeing all of the commentary. So keep it up. We want to hear your thoughts and of course make sure you sign up to the sisterhood so we can debrief, we can gist, we can do all of that kind of good stuff. Wednesday every single week we have an exclusive debrief, a live stream where it's me, Courtney and the homegirls coming together. So sisters, we hope you enjoyed. We love you deeply. We will see you in the next episode and as always, keep glowing and growing.
- [51:05]
Adela
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