Does Your Husband Hate You? The Reality of Settling, Suffering & Shame in Marriage

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Does Your Husband Hate You? The Reality of Settling, Suffering & Shame in Marriage"

Podcast Information:

• Title: To My Sisters
• Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
• Episode Title: Does Your Husband Hate You? The Reality of Settling, Suffering & Shame in Marriage
• Release Date: May 25, 2025
• Description: Join your online big sisters Courtney and Renee as they delve deeper into the realities of navigating adulthood, sisterhood, and more. To My Sisters promotes the holistic wellness, growth, and development of a community of sisters across the globe.

---

Introduction & Personal Updates

[02:38] Courtney:

"Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters Podcast. I'm Courtney."

[02:40] Adam Grant:

"And I'm Renee, and we are your online sister sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast."

The episode begins with Courtney and Renee sharing personal updates, reflecting on significant life events such as marriages, honeymoons, and recent losses. They discuss the balance between recording episodes in advance and staying current with their listeners by addressing real-time happenings.

[04:13] Adam Grant:

"I got married... I've been living my absolute best life."

Courtney echoes the sentiment, detailing their recent wedding experiences, including unplanned moments as an MC and the challenges of navigating dynamic social interactions during such events.

---

Main Discussion: Analyzing Infidelity Narratives

[23:04] Adam Grant Introduces the Topic

Adam introduces the core subject of the episode: the troubling trend of men publicly expressing negative sentiments about their wives, particularly within the Christian community. This discussion is fueled by viral moments on social media where men have confessed to not being physically attracted to their wives or have justified infidelity in unsettling terms.

[24:02] Phase One: Enduring Infidelity

Courtney and Renee delve into specific instances where men have publicly discussed enduring infidelity, framing it as a noble effort to preserve marriage despite personal suffering.

[26:17] Courtney:

"We need to address fake humility because it undermines genuine emotional experiences."

They critique the narrative that places the burden of maintaining a marriage solely on women, often at the expense of their emotional well-being and personal growth.

[36:09] Theological and Social Implications

Courtney expands on the theological misapplications that contribute to these harmful narratives. She emphasizes the importance of personal accountability, especially among Christian men, and critiques the societal tendency to blame women for issues within marriage that stem from men's actions.

[39:25] Courtney:

"God doesn't give divine empowerment for nonsense. He gives grace to remain holy and to forgive."

The hosts argue that true Christian teachings advocate for mutual respect, accountability, and the sanctity of marriage, rather than allowing one party to bear the sole responsibility for the relationship's struggles.

---

Insights & Reflections

[42:03] Courtney’s Critique of Public Transparency

Courtney discusses the dangers of premature transparency, where personal marital struggles are aired publicly without a complete understanding or redemptive narrative, leading to public judgment and misrepresentation of Christian marriage.

[46:59] Courtney:

"It's a huge degree of foolishness... why did you put a ring on it then?"

She highlights the absurdity of entering marriages based on superficial preferences and the resultant emotional neglect when deeper compatibility is absent.

[50:49] Adam Grant on Accountability in Leadership

Adam emphasizes the heightened responsibility of leaders, especially within religious contexts, to uphold the sanctity of marriage and to model appropriate behavior that honors both their partners and their faith.

---

Conclusion & Call to Action

[65:27] Adam Grant:

"Does this actually honor God? Does me sharing this story... Does this bring honor to God?"

The hosts conclude by urging listeners to reflect deeply on their motivations and the impact of publicly sharing personal marital issues. They advocate for private resolution, continuous personal growth, and mutual accountability within marriages.

[68:06] Adam Grant:

"We desire strongly to hear it. So please, please drop it like it's hot in the comments below."

They encourage audience engagement through sharing personal experiences and reflections, fostering a supportive community that prioritizes emotional and spiritual well-being.

---

Notable Quotes:

• [02:38] Courtney: "We are all about promoting the wellness, growth, and development of a community of sisters around the world."
• [23:04] Adam Grant: "There's an awkward and uncomfortable conversation that men also have to have with themselves."
• [36:09] Courtney: "If your wife is not your type... but she's the one you've committed to, that's where the real challenge lies."
• [46:27] Courtney: "There's no room for nuance. It's hard for people to understand what God is trying to teach you personally because it's not their lesson."
• [65:27] Courtney: "Even if you are immature getting into marriage, you have to mature in your marriage. It's that simple."

---

Final Thoughts: In this episode, Courtney and Renee tackle the sensitive and often misunderstood topic of marital infidelity and the societal narratives that unfairly burden women. Through a blend of personal anecdotes, theological insights, and social critiques, they advocate for accountability, mutual respect, and genuine emotional support within marriages. The discussion serves as a call to action for both men and women to engage in honest self-reflection and to foster marriages that honor both partners and their shared faith.

For listeners seeking supportive conversations around marriage, faith, and personal growth, this episode provides valuable perspectives and encourages active participation in building healthier, more respectful relationships.

Transcript

[Courtney]

Hi, I'm Adam Grant, host of the podcast Work Life. For over 20 years, Paylocity has been simplifying work with innovative solutions that teams love like On Demand Payment which offers.

[Renee]

Employees access to wages prior to payday, flexible time tracking features which enable staff.

[Courtney]

To clock in and out through their mobile device, and numerous other cutting edge solutions that simplify collaboration across hr, finance and it. Learn more about how Paylocity can help.

[Renee]

Streamline work and enhance business outcomes for your organization at paylocity.com/simplified.

[Courtney]

Hi, it's Courtney and Renee from the To My Sisters podcast and this episode is sponsored by the Long Wave, a free weekly newsletter from the Guardian.

[Adam Grant]

Now Sisters, if you've ever felt like our stories, our global black experiences deserve more depth, more nuance, more spotlight, the Long Wave might be just what you've been looking for.

[Courtney]

Written by Guardian columnist Nezreen Malik and edited by Jason Okundaye, this newsletter brings you rich reporting, fresco commentary and powerful features from across Africa, the us, the uk, the Caribbean and beyond. Whether it's music, politics, business or beauty, it's a space where our culture, our voices and our realities are thoughtfully explored and conversations which are often limited to social media and WhatsApp groups are amplified.

[Adam Grant]

If you love the conversations we have here on To My Sisters. We think you'll love what the Long Wave is building too. So sign up to the Long Wave for [e-mail] thelongwave25 we are going to be talking about whether men hate women.

[Courtney]

They'll be like I was attracted to petite light skin and then here she came looking like a gorilla.

[Adam Grant]

The worst thing is when they outline what their spec is and you look at the wife and you think big back, dark skin.

[Courtney]

Her clothes weren't nice, her hair weren't nice, but I knew she'd be a girl.

[Adam Grant]

Good mother ironing clothes for her husband, knowing that he was going to go and see his side chick.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I knew she'd make a great.

[Renee]

Wife.

[Courtney]

But she was ugly.

[Adam Grant]

I brought one of my close friends and at the Bright I noticed him gravitating towards her but brushed it off as overthinking.

[Courtney]

Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters Podcast. I'm Courtney.

[Adam Grant]

And I'm Renee and we are your online sister sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.

[Courtney]

We are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters around the world.

[Adam Grant]

And in today's podcast episode, hello, we are going to be talking about whether men hate women.

[Courtney]

The great question. Oh, the reality.

[Adam Grant]

The alleged reality Physical attraction, preferences, settling, endurance, pain and suffering.

[Courtney]

Yes, specifically that. Specifically, specifically that. It's going to be a good conversation.

[Adam Grant]

Boy. It's come to our attention that on the social media grapevine, there have been other conversations that have been happening. Unfortunately, we cannot control all conversations, and that's how we came here today.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

But before we get into all of that, I believe. I believe we have some housekeeping.

[Courtney]

Yes, we do. It's been a minute since you've seen. Well, actually not since you've seen us because we've been here every week, but since we've done housekeeping. Life updates. Updates. What's been going on? Because we have been recording a lot of episodes in advance. So as you guys know, 2025 is the year of season changes for the girlies and for us. And a lot has been happening in our lives offline. So we thought, listen, to take the pressure off, let's record some TMS episodes, have them in the bank to release and have them pre scheduled for you guys. So there's been a lot that's been happening in life, but you haven't necessarily heard us talk about it on the podcast because these are episodes that you've been watching that were recording in like, November, December, January, but they're coming out in, like, February, March, May. So this. We're kind of back in real time with this episode. And so major life updates. Do you want to go first on Mrs.

[Adam Grant]

I'm, in fact, a missus. I have, in fact, dropped my surname. Isn't that crazy? Yeah, that crazy. Yeah. So I got married.

[Courtney]

You did?

[Adam Grant]

That was great. And I've been living my absolute best life.

[Courtney]

Nicely.

[Adam Grant]

Love it.

[Courtney]

How's it been?

[Adam Grant]

Do you know what? It's been excellent. And I think it's important to say that it's been excellent given the gravitas of the conversation that we're about to have. But it's actually been wonderful. I have never experienced so much love, obviously from my husband, but also from my community. Like, this season of my life has really felt covered, if that makes sense. Like seeing my parents come together, seeing my friends come together. Like, it was honestly beautiful. And I keep on saying this, if I could relive that day top to bottom, I really would. I had the best time ever. It was. Guys, if you haven't already, this is not even me doing, like, PR or anything like that. Go and watch the wedding video because that just gives you a glimpse as to how the day went. It was so beautiful. It was intimate. I had a great time. Courtney was Our mc, mind you.

[Courtney]

Unfortunately, I was. No, it was actually a really, really good time. It's just I also. I never experienced it off the c. I was not told. We were, like, literally at the wedding, at the actual reception. It was like, hey, here's a microphone.

[Adam Grant]

We think that you'd be excellent. So book Courtney. Genuinely.

[Courtney]

Why not? And you sign for me.

[Adam Grant]

I actually think you'd be an excellent wedding mc. She was actually so funny. But also, like, every single person that was giving a speech was notified on that day, mind you. Probably like, maybe five minutes before they had to. There was only one person that was prepared.

[Courtney]

No, no, no, no. What we need to address in this life. Yeah. Is fake humility. We need to address it because I. So one of. One of Renee's husband's friends was given the task of giving a speech. One of his childhood friends.

[Adam Grant]

Right.

[Courtney]

So I have to break the news to him that, hey, in about 10 minutes, I'm going to come up to you and you're going to have to give a speech about your lovely friend. I walk up to him and I'm like, hey, I. I know you don't know me. I don't know you, but, you know, we're about to give speeches and you've been asked to give a speech. Come and see Palava. Oh, gosh, no. I'm just so. I'm so nervous. I wasn't prepared for this all my days. I said, don't worry, none of us have been prepped, but I'm sure you'll be fine. You've known him for such a long time. They've picked you. It's an honor blow. Just, you know, trying to encourage him, whatever. So he even tells me, can I go last? And I thought, no, I'm going last so you can go second to last. And so he's like, okay, cool, cool, cool. Come. I'm seeing somebody pacing back and forth. I thought, wow. Like, he has such genuine going through it. There's a lot going on here. Okay, it's now his turn. I've called him up. Clap, clap, clap. He comes up, he takes the mic from me. All I see, he whips out his phone from his pocket. I'm seeing essay. I'm seeing speech.

[Adam Grant]

10 minutes, guys.

[Courtney]

Now this man starts talking. I first met Renee's husband, and he was. And then we called him and he was born in. And I said, listen, this is a man who has prepared all of that pacing back and forth. What was that about? People can. This man spoke for. You said 10 minutes. That's even graceful. He spoke for about 13 minutes. 13 minutes. And I'm not going to lie, when we have an episode coming up about letting go of things that you might have outgrown. No offense to this man, but sometimes when you give people the room to give a speech, but you make sure they're not your enemy in disguise. Some of the things this man was saying, I thought, do you know the energy parents are in the room?

[Adam Grant]

No, truly, the energy it was given is, you know when it's your birthday and you have that one friend that has an arsenal like a toolkit.

[Courtney]

Yeah. For a lot of information.

[Adam Grant]

Some stuff that they're ready to just unleash on social media. It's one slip of you in the back like that. You're now found. Find on social media.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Imagine that. But like an album.

[Courtney]

Yeah, it was a lot. It was a lot. It was. At some points he was dropping jokes, then there would be an insult slid in there, and then it would go back to an emotional story. Then he would cuss him a little bit. I just thought, this is South London.

[Adam Grant]

No, this the actual apex. The apex of South London. And what was killing me was obviously Courtney's the mc. So she's just standing there in the background, kind of like serenade. You want me to treat this guy?

[Courtney]

I don't know what to do.

[Adam Grant]

What do we do here?

[Courtney]

Let him talk. And at the end of the day, what was said was said. And we don't know if he's a friend or an enemy. Not really for me to deserve.

[Adam Grant]

And you know what? Maybe Mandam are different because I know.

[Courtney]

You know, men are very different.

[Adam Grant]

The way men interact with each other is very different to women. So having said that, though, quite a few men did do a speech. Yeah, but this was a childhood friend.

[Courtney]

Yeah, but you know what, though? You can tell that, like, they've just been through a lot and, like, different phases of life, but the love is there.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So, yeah, it was a very interesting situation. But, yeah, book me to do your MC'ing if you'd like to. I will vet the people.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's necessary to vet people. 100. But I had the best time.

[Courtney]

Good.

[Adam Grant]

It was. Yeah. If I could live that day again. Guys, I wish I could go back, but, yeah, I had the best time. And then we went to Jamaica for our honeymoon, which was delightful. Y' all be eating good?

[Courtney]

Yes. And we ate food.

[Adam Grant]

Well, like, I. Yeah, no wonder. They're just. They have such a happy disposition. They're such A happy people because they're fed well.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jamaica's beautiful.

[Adam Grant]

It was beautiful.

[Courtney]

Good vibes.

[Adam Grant]

We had such a good time. And it was the first time that I flew business class.

[Courtney]

Come on, flex on them, guys.

[Adam Grant]

I said, is this how the other side live? Oh, my gosh, it was lovely. So one of our friends actually gifted us an upgrade because it wasn't us that it was coming out of our own pocket. I tell you, give the dust the upgrades. I'm telling you. Acting brand new that whole time. And the great thing was it wasn't a direct flight. So we had a stopover in Atlanta. Guys. The food that we were chopping from the UK to Atlanta to Jamaica, we were just greeted with food. It was full on glassy. Your best life enjoyment. They give you, like, metal cutlery. Beautiful stuff, a free course meal, wonderful stuff. They even ask you your name.

[Courtney]

Me. You want to know about me and my backstory. They don't have that kind of customer service.

[Adam Grant]

Listen, I have never been. Oh, boys.

[Courtney]

The cattle class. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

I was horizontal for a good like six, seven hours. And I didn't need to be evil. I was trying to eat. I was usually horizontal trying to eat. But I said, I'm not gonna have this experience for a while, so let me just enjoy. Had the best time. And then, yeah, coming back to the United Kingdom, which was, you know, a little bit ghetto, but it's been great. Like, married life has been great. Guys, I. I really cannot lie. Like, obviously I love the guy, but don't clip that. Please don't clip that. I don't want to see that anywhere on the Internet. But, yeah, like, it's actually been so, so wonderful. Like, he makes my life easy.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Which I really, really enjoy. And it's been beautiful seeing how much our communities and, like, families and friends have integrated. So another celebration we had recently, it was Ms. CDB's birthday.

[Courtney]

It was my birthday recently.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Y' all tell us about that and about the games night. The games.

[Courtney]

So for my birthday, you know, in my 28th birthday recently, it was a great time and I did like a four day celebration. Why not make it extravaganza? My fiance booked me a deep tissue massage, which was really necessary because your girl's gone back to the gym. And my body was just doing crinkle crankle. So I was like, let me get myself these knots taken out. Actually, it was a man that massaged me.

[Adam Grant]

No way.

[Courtney]

I walked into this because of like a man and a woman came out.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I didn't know who was for me.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So they were like, oh, I'll take you to the room. I'm walking, I'm walking. Suddenly the woman has left. I'm thinking, where's this woman? I step into the room, it's this man. I said, me and you. You got me. So, yeah, but. And I. So I don't feel. It was a different experience, but I don't feel any type of way. Yeah, like you're a professional.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, yeah, I'm a customer.

[Courtney]

So if you could do the job, you could do the job. I don't know if this man thought I was his equal, but the way he was, the pressure, it's like, are you beating me up? I am not a man. You are a man, dude.

[Adam Grant]

When you said man, I was like, yeah.

[Courtney]

That man said, deep tissue. I will get to your bones. He did some something with his elbow. I said, yay. He said, is it too much pressure? You're trying to kill me. I said, lightening it, lighten it, lighten it. I had to tell him three times, please let. I'm delicate. Just a small flower garden. You know, when someone this not wwe. I came here to be relaxed. But anyway, so I did a tea tissue massage. We went to dinner afterwards. Then Saturday, myself, my fiance Renee and her husband went to see Kev on stage in the. In London, his live stand up show. That was so funny. So funny. I am a big admirer, huge fan of Kev on stage. I'm actually a part of the stage crew. Like I'm on the Patreon, stuff like that. I'm a huge fan of him and I've always. I booked these tickets like last year. As soon as I saw it pop.

[Adam Grant]

Up on my Instagram, I said, book, I'm here.

[Courtney]

I am going. Because I find him mad inspiring, but also really good at what he does. Yeah. And so, yeah, went to the show and genuinely he is more funny in person than he is anything. And he had other like supporting acts there as well. There was a lady who came to sing. Her voice was so beautiful.

[Adam Grant]

Fantastic.

[Courtney]

And then there was other comedians and there was one comedian that did a joke that he was going to like. He picked his girlfriend to come from the audience to come and be the participant in this joke. And in the joke, he like fake proposed, but she thought he was going to propose. This woman's face was in shock. Everyone was like, oh, my gosh. And this man looks around and he's like, I shouldn't have picked her to do this example, because I don't have a ring, everybody was there, like. So she comes down off the stage and everyone's just thinking, just go to the side.

[Adam Grant]

You know, the. Like, the UK audience are so unforgiving.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah. Now, from then on, everything was quite downhill. But, you know, Kev came back, picked the whole thing. So that was a very awkward moment. But the show was absolutely amazing. So we did that. On Saturday, I also went to brunch with our friend Dorcas. Shout out to Dorcas.

[Adam Grant]

Big up, Dorcas.

[Courtney]

And then on Sunday, I went to church. I got to leave praise and worship on my birthday, and my birthday is actually, like, on the Sunday, and I was born on a Sunday as well, so it's just very iconic. So, yeah, I got to leave praise and worship, which was really lovely. And then in the evening now, I said, I'm gonna hold the games night of all games nights. Now I'm bringing in different people from different places of life. Yeah. So I've got friends from my old church, I've got friends from my new church, I've got friends from secondary school. My fiance is there, my cousins are there, my sister is there. I have everyone, everyone I've picked up along the way. There's about 30 people at this game tonight. These are my close friends, allegedly. This is my close friends, and we get into that place and Dorcas at brunch the day before was like, you know, let's up the stakes. Everybody put in, you know, five pounds and, you know, winning team wins. I said, first of all, we're already a competitive bunch. Like, if you bring money, Even if it's 10 people, if you bring money into this situation, I don't know if we're going to all leave with our limbs and clips. Then she was like, but if we're about it, we're about it. In the evening, when we went to the comedy show, I brought this suggestion up to Renee and her husband. Husband was like, up it to £10. I said, huh? He said, yeah, people need skin in the game. Up it to £10. So we upped it to £10. There's a prize port. Every single person has put in ten pounds into this prize port. Yeah. So the winning team takes all. I've divided these 30 people into four teams. We start off with the cup game, we do a trivia game. We do articulate, and then we play Mafia guys. Pure carnage. I've never seen people turn on each other, so. And what is sad about this whole thing, my sister decided she was going to be the gays pastor. Now if you have you've watched the episode with Mary. Mary's temperament is not to fight. Mary is a peacemaker.

[Adam Grant]

She is.

[Courtney]

Everyone else in the room though was odds very wicked. They almost bit her face off.

[Adam Grant]

Us included.

[Courtney]

Yeah. No, even me. We almost scrapped she.

[Adam Grant]

Probably the worst.

[Courtney]

Yeah. So you know, just, just know when you come to a games night, sometimes you need to put Christianity aside side and you need to let people see what you were like before you were saying.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

Just a glimpse, just a little. Don't, don't move. Don't move mad with me. But all in all, it was a fun time.

[Adam Grant]

It was hilarious.

[Courtney]

It was actually a very funny time. I was scared that people did not have a good time because it was much fighting.

[Adam Grant]

Sorry. Courtney's central nervous system, the need for regulation was actually so serious because like when I say people were taking it too hot like it was. People were. People were arguing, myself included. People were trying to steal points. People were standing around, specifically our team because our team was actually the winning team, the right team.

[Courtney]

Yeah, we did very well. We did very well.

[Adam Grant]

We should have actually been the winners. But again, you know, circumstances and politics and whatnot, it just did not allow. But it was actually one of the greatest games night that I have personally been to and everyone said that they had a great time.

[Courtney]

A great time. They did. It was a games tournament and yeah, I hope we could do it again at another point when I have healed. I don't even talk about it in therapy, but it was a. It was a really good time. And then the Monday, which was a bank holiday Monday, I just took a day to myself to just get myself back together, which I actually really needed because unfortunately two days later I lost a very close family member. So it was a whole whirlwind of a time in like 48 hours I needed to pack my bags, get me and my family to Italy to go and bury my uncle. And that was a very sobering experience. So I literally just got back yesterday from when we're recording this and it just felt like because I had celebrated my birthday and I had gone into my birthday, I guess similar to what you're saying, like just surrounded by so much love and just realizing like, wow, I have such a beautiful community and obviously it's a celebration of life and then going into the week and then losing someone to death and having to think about death and legacy. And like my uncle, my uncle was a priest and I really am grateful to him because he's the one who kind of sowed the seed of faith into me and all of my siblings. So my. My uncle made sure we all went to Catholic school. He would call you every Sunday and be like, have you gone to church? He would sit down and have, like, theological conversations with you and go through the Bible with you and every. Pray for you, everything. Like, when it comes to faith, he was the one who really kept us grounded and getting to hear more about, like, his life story and what he's done with his life and how he's lived as a Christian. It was just like, wow, this is so inspiring to live this. And you never would have known it if you interacted with him, that he had done all these things like set up monasteries, helped to disciple people, paid for people to go to school, to move countries, school fees, everything. And it was just like, wow, this guy's really dumb bits. Really dumb bits. And that's what you want your life to speak of? Yeah. So, yeah, it was just a nice contrast, like, to start the week with my birthday, but then to end it at a funeral and just be like, a lot life, you have to really consider your life well and how you live it and. And you have to be about it. So. Shout out to my uncle. Shout out to the legacy he's left. And I guess in. In terms of the last couple of months, it's just been wedding planning and prep. I've done a lot of speaking engagements and, like, what work has been really nice. God has just been showing me that, like, seeds that I sowed five years ago are now beginning to, like, bear fruit. And it's just been a really beautiful season. Preparing to step into a new one. Man.

[Adam Grant]

Crazy.

[Courtney]

But, yeah, that's where we've been. That's what we've been up to. Shout out to you if you've actually stayed throughout this whole. Whole thing. You're the whole debacle. To hear. To hear what's been going on. And obviously with TMS as well, we've just been doing our best to make sure you get consistent episodes. We've been working with the new production team, Shout out to John Ross and the whole team. Janelle, Vanessa, Tatiana, Kevin, everyone. And we're really, really grateful that we can outsource a lot of the record, all of the recording and editing now to make sure that you get consistent and uploads of such a great quality. So just say shout out to them in the comments. Oh, my gosh. We went to South Africa. Oh, yeah, we went to.

[Adam Grant]

This is Actually hilarious.

[Courtney]

We went to South.

[Adam Grant]

We went to South Africa.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Oh my gosh.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

We did a live show, Cape Town. Every woman that came shout out to Pumi from the Wisdom and Wellness podcast, shout out to Spotify Africa for sponsoring that show. How freaking epic.

[Adam Grant]

Insane.

[Courtney]

A good time. You guys showed up and showed up at South Africa. We always know that we can count on you. That was a wonderful time in March. And then we came and we did our live dinner. Dinner, dinner party. We need a nice name for you. Give us a nice name. But we had a dinner party in London. 60 ladies. Those tickets sold out so quickly.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. Real quick.

[Courtney]

So maybe we'll do another one real soon. Keep your eyes peeled on the mailing list. But yeah, we did a dinner party live podcast conversation over. Over a three course meal. And that was so nice.

[Adam Grant]

It was so lovely.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And we don't really get the opportunity to have intimate gatherings, sister. So it was actually beautiful to be able to engage with the sisters on that level. We've also, if you have been plugged into the TMS community platform. We have been doing weekly.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Weekly streams. So for those, listen, those are the sisters that get the real time experience. So if you're not already plugged in, we would recommend that you join the sisterhood. The information will all be available in the description. We are there weekly. Ladies.

[Courtney]

Yeah. You would know all of this if you're part of.

[Adam Grant]

You know what I'm saying, TMS After Dark.

[Courtney]

You know all of this already. But yes, I guess we can go into the episode. But before we do, thank you so much. Thank you for rocking with us, being patient with us, praying for us, all the love that you have shown as Renee got married and just as we've done different things, going and doing shows and just life has been going on. You guys have been rocking with us on Instagram, over on LinkedIn and just in person when we see you, the love, the prayers have been outrageous. So thank you so, so much for rocking with this journey.

[Adam Grant]

And there's more to come, more to come, period. It's a big year 2025, fifth year anniversary.

[Courtney]

Did somebody say let's get into it? But yes. Conversation time. Dear future wifey. Oh my God. So ladies.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, I'm so excited to get into this one. It's doing part one and two but we'll see where we go. So do men like women? Has been question.

[Courtney]

Do women like themselves?

[Adam Grant]

That was an iris because no. I don't know if you guys listening have been in the social media streets and listening to that podcast. And the funny thing is I don't think that the most recent episode with the pastor and his wife was like the only episode where we've had a couple come on and willingly forfeit information about. It's been an array, if you will, a season maybe, of folks willingly admitting that they were not physically attracted to them. Partner.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Willingly admitting that they had worked through infidelity in the most heinous of ways.

[Courtney]

Yeah. So I think maybe lay the. Lay the context, paint the picture for people who may not know what's.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. For those of you that. That don't know what's going on. Many of us, until it was thrust on my FYP on Tick Tock. Shout out to Tick Tock. Courtney really got me into Tick Tock. Boy, that place is great. Unhinged, but great. But essentially, lateris Whitfield Lus Whitford. He is the founder and the host of the Dear Future Wifey podcast where he brings on some really excellent guests. To be fair, he's had some really cool episodes where he's brought on couples, he's brought on individuals to have some real gripping conversations on relationships, sometimes finances, sometimes community, a whole bunch of different things which really looks at the makeup on and composition of relationships, family, all of that kind of good stuff. And recently he went viral when he invited a couple to kind of talk about the span of their relationship. I can't remember how long they've been.

[Courtney]

Married for over 20 years, I think, unfortunately.

[Adam Grant]

I mean, fortunately.

[Courtney]

Oh, Renee. Fortunately.

[Adam Grant]

Fortunately. We love to see impact things happen. Yeah.

[Courtney]

It's unfortunate.

[Adam Grant]

There are things that are still happening. Clearly. Essentially they had a conversation in which they willingly shared that they had gone through infidelity where the pastor, the man had been unfaithful to his wife. And there were just very interesting comments that were made in. In reference to that infidelity, such as, you know, being graced to handle infidelity, going through infidelity as though it wasn't one predominant person that was actually doing it, but going through it as an experience and overcoming it. And it became very, very unpopular, infamous on Tick tock and social media more generally because it spoke to a general trend actually of this idea of enduring in marriage. I mean, some of the details that were offered. The wife had spoken about, you know, ironing clothes for her husband, knowing that he was going to go and see his side chick, praying for him, praying and fighting for their marriage. And her husband was speaking so highly of his wife, you know, her capacity to persist in Troubling times that was. Was thrust onto them. Not something that they had willingly chosen to go through.

[Courtney]

Good.

[Adam Grant]

So that set the scene for kind of phase one of the conversation. There's also phase two where we've actually had a couple in which, you know, a man and a woman came on and basically the man said, you know, I was not attracted to my wife at all.

[Courtney]

That's also. That's. Was it the man who. The woman that was graced for the side chick episode that he also said the same thing. My wife was not my type. And then another episode also came with a different.

[Adam Grant]

So there's more. Oh, no, there's.

[Courtney]

Yeah, this happens multiple times. Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

See how I don't get to the end of these podcast episodes? No, I don't get to the end.

[Courtney]

No, no, no. These are just the clips. These are just the clips. So the running theme we'll discuss.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. So willingly admitting that their wife is not their type. And the worst thing is when they outline what their spec is and you look at the wife and you think.

[Courtney]

But they even say it. The wife said, yeah, the wife say it at the husband to their face in front of the host. They'll be like, I was attracted to petite, light skin, and then here she came looking like a gorilla. Just big, big back, dark skin. Her clothes weren't nice, her hair weren't nice. But I knew she'd be a good mother. I knew she'd make a great wife. But she was ugly. But she was ugly.

[Adam Grant]

That's because they say it like that.

[Courtney]

Exactly like that.

[Adam Grant]

And so that's the scene that we're setting for you today, your honor.

[Courtney]

Courtney, please talk to the people there.

[Adam Grant]

I want to understand.

[Courtney]

Oh, my gosh.

[Adam Grant]

How we've gotten to this place, because I think it's one thing to be able to be in this kind of situation, but then I think it's another thing to use a platform to then share these opinions in the attempt to kind of like, shed light on reality and what people are going through. But I'm not trying to be inspirational and various things. I don't know if you were inspired. I wasn't. I'm sure there's a demographic for that. But talk to us about that. Like the reality that there are people who are in relationships whereby they are enduring, they are suffering, or they have gone through quite troubling times in former relation in a previous part of their relationship and come out on the other side. Hey, sisters, we know that you are enjoying the conversation, but we've got a Little bit of an interruption because we have a sister with a ding, ding, ding dilemma. Let's get into it. Hi, Courtney and Renee. Firstly, congratulations on your engagements. I'm so happy for you and wish you all the best. Thank you so much. We adore you. I'd love your advice on a situation that has left me feeling hurt and unsure of how to navigate it. Two years ago, I met a guy I liked. He followed me on Instagram and we started chatting. Our conversations moved to WhatsApp and stayed light and friendly. Later, he invited me to a braai. Okay, South African girly. I brought one of my close friends, and at the Braai, I noticed him gravitating towards her, but brushed it off as overthinking. In November, my friends and I planned a girl's day to visit a historical township here in South Africa. Since this guy lives here, I asked him to show us around. Again, I noticed him paying more attention to the same friend. I shared my observations with her afterwards, and while she apologized, saying she hadn't noticed, it still left me feeling unsettled. Recently, he requested to follow her on Instagram. She told me, and I said she could accept it if she wanted. Later, I saw she not only accepted it, but also requested to follow him. She's actually in a relationship, which makes it harder to understand why she'd engage with him. Knowing how hurt I've been, I feel betrayed. Should I address this with her or am I. Okay, overreacting. First of all, sis, thank you so much for sharing your dilemma. I know that this kind of situation is kind of awkward and uncomfortable, especially when it comes to guys that we like or guys that we have any kind of history with. So thank you for your transparency. I'm sure there are a lot of ladies that may have been in a similar situation or just kind of feel awkward about something like this in their lives. I don't necessarily think that you are overreacting. I think it's very natural and normal to have quite an emotional response, especially because it seems like you really like the guy. And I think this is less so about whether you're overreacting and more so about understanding what is the issue at hand. What are you actually feeling? And for me, it sounds like there's a little bit of trust that's been broken. First of all, I think really expressing to your friend how much you like this guy. Maybe there could be a conversation there where you talk to your friend and try and say, hey. So actually, I did feel some type of way, and I did Reveal a little bit of, you know, an insecurity here or. I was very vulnerable with you, but I didn't ex. I didn't actually explain the full extent of that vulnerability, which is I really like that guy and your actions kind of made me feel some type of way. So it's less so that you're overreacting and more so I think there's actually opportunity for you to be a little bit more vulnerable with your friend, especially because it seems like this a friend that you really, really like and, you know, you hang around with as well as a guy that you actually like as well. I think there's also been. For you, it sounds like the transgression of a particular boundary and trust is really, really important when it comes to any sort of relationship, but especially friendships. So it's not even necessarily the scale of what was done per se, but more so it kind of feels as though your trust has been violated a little bit, at least to you, or the boundary has been transgressed. So I do think that it is worth having a conversation with your friend. Not necessarily accusatory, but one that's actually seeking clarity, one that gives you an opportunity to really share what's truly on your heart. If you trust her, hopefully that you. Hopefully you do trust her, because it does sound like with you feeling comfortable enough to at least tell her, oh, you like this guy, you do trust her to an extent. But I do think there's something there around having an honest conversation with your friend to tell her how you really feel, as opposed to posing it as a girl. What you doing? You're in a relationship. This is a guy I like, you're doing too much. And so if that's kind of the nature of your relationship, one that's actually vulnerable, one that you really care about, then it would be worth you sitting down, having the conversation, giving the benefit of the doubt, but also expressing truly how you felt in this situation and how it may made you feel. Listen, sis, I know it's tough, especially when the guy is involved and especially when it feels as though, you know, you wanted things to progress in a certain way. But I think that at the end of the day, especially with a friend, those relationships are worth fighting for, or at least those relationships are worth, you know, doing a little bit of work to kind of unearth your emotions, your feelings, your attitudes as well as her own as well. So, sis, sending you so much love. I know this is an awkward one. I know that, you know, the emotions, the insecurities, they be cropping up and it's very, very easy to feel the way that you do. So just to validate your emotions and your feelings. Perfectly normal. But yeah, prioritize. Have that conversation with your sister. Try and be as vulnerable as possible and be honest about your feelings and try and seek some clarity and understanding as opposed to being accusatory. But sis, sending lots and lots of love. But without further ado, back to the episode.

[Courtney]

Hi, it's Courtney and Renee from the To My Sisters podcast and this episode is sponsored by the Long Wave, a free weekly newsletter from the Guardian.

[Adam Grant]

Now sisters, if you've ever felt like our stories, our global black experiences deserve more depth, more nuance, more spotlight, the Long Wave might be just what you've been looking for.

[Courtney]

Written by Guardian columnist Nezrin Malik and edited by Jason Okundaye, this newsletter brings you rich reporting, fresh commentary and powerful features from across Africa, the us, the uk, the Caribbean and beyond. Whether it's music, politics, business or beauty, it's a space where our culture, our voices and our realities are thoughtfully explored and conversations which are often limited to social media and WhatsApp groups are amplified.

[Adam Grant]

If you love the conversations we have here, on To My Sisters. We think you'll love what the Long Wave is building too. Sign up to the Long Wave for [e-mail] TheLongWave25 this is Paige Desorbo from Giggly Squad. Boost Mobile is no longer that prepaid wireless company you remember. They've invested billions into building their own 5G towers across America. With Boost Mobile's networks, customers enjoy the speed and service they'd expect from the Big three, plus groundbreaking benefits you'd only get from a true challenger of the industry. Boost Mobile will let you try the network risk free for 30 days, so visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find us [e-mail] today.

[Renee]

Hello, this is Dani from everything iconic. There is tea to spill and as always, I'm here for it. The all new season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is now streaming on Hulu. We'll finally get to see what's going on with our favorite saints and sinners. This season is a tangled web of jealousy, exes and drama. It's going to be pure insanity. I'm so excited. Don't miss the new season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives now streaming on Hulu.

[Courtney]

Oh you know what? I think there's a lot to it. There's a lot to it and I think to give context as well to maybe if you're new to our Podcast. Like, we are very. We are Christians, so we do talk about things from a spiritual point of view, but we're also like, academics and social scientists. Like, we think about things from a social and a political standpoint as well. Like what's going on socially that's caused this situation to happen. And I think with this, we see an amalgamation of a few things. I think we see the incorrect cultural application of theology.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And people take something that is a personal experience, and they make it prescriptive at times. And I think we need to be careful that, especially when it comes to personal conviction and faith that we really assess. Is this according to the book, or is this what culture has taught, taught me and told me, or is this just a personal experience? And I think a lot of what happens with these infidelity conversations is people don't. People don't point fingers to. To the person who is the perpetrator of a sin, and they instead point the finger to the woman as the person who is the upholder of the marriage.

[Adam Grant]

Correct.

[Courtney]

And that happens socially, outside of Christianity, that also happens socially. But it is something that we then bring into our faith and sometimes we don't renew our minds over. So, for example, the Bible talks about, you can divorce your husband or you can divorce your wife on the matters of two things, death and infidelity. Those are two things. So if a person makes the personal choice that, okay, I know I have the grounds to divorce my partner, but I don't want to divorce them because I want to work through this for my marriage. That's a personal choice, and it's a very. I wouldn't even just say noble, but it's a. It's a big task. That's not a small thing. That's a huge task. And whatever you have to kind of not only tell. Tell yourself, but whatever process you have to go through in order to make your marriage work after that, that is a very personal, very challenging thing. So I think for a lot of the women that we see in these conversations, it's. This is. To some degree, this is what I had to tell myself in order to get through the challenges of my marriage. And sometimes it is. You know, maybe you felt like the Lord did tell you love your husband through it all and stay through it, or. I don't know if it's my Jesus.

[Adam Grant]

About personal.

[Courtney]

You have a personal relationship with some spirit. And if it's the Holy One, I don't know, because, you know, I think to myself, is it Hosea or. There is. There is A book. Is it Hosea? There is a prophet in the Bible who had to stay married to a prostitute. Yeah. And it was like, I can't remember his, his wife's name. Think it begins with a G. I can't remember. But he has to stay married to her. And it's at. And it's as sorry, a display of God's commitment to an adulterous people and to a people who constantly keep turning back to idols, keep turning back to the things that had them in bondage, but they keep turning back to it and it's like, okay, you are a prophet, prophet Hosea. And I want to show my commitment to my adulterous people through you. Staying committed to your adulterous wife.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And he, this, this whole book is describing how this woman keeps turning away and he's having to stay committed. He's having to pursue her in love. And so I understand how, if you feel like God is telling you, I want to teach you some things through you staying committed to someone who isn't committed to you. That is a very personal journey. And I would, I, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I would not bring that to the Internet. The reason why is it's. There's no room for nuance. It's hard for people to understand what God is trying to teach you personally because it's not their lesson. And so if God is the one who is telling you, okay, do this, do it in private.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Don't ever, don't ever bring that to the. Until the Lord tells you it is time. And they've. He's also strengthened you for that. He's also put. Because this is the thing about the prophet Hosea and any of the stories that are in the Bible, they always give glory back to God. They always are a depiction of the Gospel. They always bring people to a point of redemption. It's something that makes the people who see it and hear it with revelation and who the Spirit opens their ears to be like, you know what? God is actually faithful. God is good. What's unfortunate about these clips that we're seeing is they don't do that. They don't bring dignity. They don't bring glory to God. They don't. It's. It's very much. And I've been seeing commentary around this. It's very much back bad PR for Christianity. It's very much people being like, if this is what the Christian depiction or experience of marriage is, I don't want that. I, it feels like God is giving Christian women who have dedicated their lives to him terrible rewards of marriage. You know, he's making them suffer through marriage. And it makes worldly marriages seem like they have more wisdom in them because maybe they oppress. Approach thing from a. Approach things from a more emotionally mature standpoint.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so I think overall, what happens is a lot of the emotional processing that happens within a relationship is put on the woman. Right. She has to not only process her own emotions, but also figure out how to either suppress her emotions or change the way she feels in a way that will sustain her entire home. Because, oh, you are the pillar of your entire home as a Christian woman. But actually, the father is the head, the husband is the lead. He is the one who is meant to set the tone. And this is one of the biggest lies that come. The idea that the woman ends the marriage when she ends the marriage, but actually the man ends the marriage when he cheats.

[Adam Grant]

Correct.

[Courtney]

Right. The marriage was ended by the person who decided to go against the covenant of this relationship and to not protect its holiness and his sanctity. And so instead of pointing the finger at that man, the light then begins to be shone on this woman who wasn't actually at fault. And that's the antithesis of the Gospel message. Jesus is the one who takes the responsibility for all the mistakes that his bride even makes. And so for you to allow your wife to sit there and talk about how she was graced for your sins and not publicly repent and publicly apologize and even cover her so that she would not be at the brunt of such shame, it really shows that there is a dynamic here or a revelation of the Gospel and the. The revelation of marriage that is not understood.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so to me, that's the part that I think is quite unfortunate. I think from a social perspective as well, we just see a lot of women who maybe do not tell the. I feel like they don't tell the full side of the story, which is maybe you separated or maybe you. You understand that I had grounds to remove myself and I wouldn't let. I wouldn't tell another woman that she has to stay in order to protect her marriage or anything like that. I would understand if you're a woman who chose to leave. And I also don't look down on you if you are a woman who has chosen to leave or if you are a woman who has chosen not to get married because you haven't met a man who, you know, you feel like you could have a God honoring marriage with I feel like that grace often isn't given or that nuance isn't given. And instead people see being married and their marital status as the trophy, right? So for example, this lady who was saying she was grace for to iron her husband's clothes before his side chick, when people asked her, well then what would you say to women who would be like, that's a grace that I don't want. She said, that's why you're single. And now we're weaponizing singleness as if to say people should just settle for any kind of marriage for the sake of saying that they are married. But God is calling us to God honoring marriages, not just marriage of any kind, right? Paul tells people in the in, I think it's Corinthians, he tells them, now that you are in Christ, if you want to stay single, stay single unto the glory of God. But if you are going to get married, don't you dare marry an unbeliever. Don't go and marry somebody who is going to make you divert from the standards of Christianity, right? Not because they are. Not just because they are more superior to the world, but because above all, even in your marriage, the aim is for God to be glorified. And so if you're going to enter into a marriage that would stop you from honoring the Lord, don't enter into the marriage. And so just because you've married a so called Christian, it doesn't mean your marriage is God honoring and it doesn't mean it's God glorifying. That takes consistent effort from the both of you to continue to live in holiness and pray and purity. We have preached so much about holiness and purity for single people that we forget that we also need to preach about holiness and purity for married people. Because if you don't, your marriage is no longer a God honoring marriage. And I think unfortunately we're seeing a lot of non God honoring marriages going viral. And yet it's coming from Christians who say that they have the spirit of God living in them. You cannot pervert and twist scriptures about FL forgiveness and about the old things passing away and about grace. We'll come to grace in a second. And about grace, in order to justify the nonsense that's happened in your life, deal with your nonsense in private insane.

[Adam Grant]

Deal with it in private insane work.

[Courtney]

And then the last thing I will say about grace is God doesn't give divine empowerment for nonsense. He doesn't give divine empowerment for nonsense. I feel like, okay, if God has released a grand grace over you again, Back to this Hosea thing. Okay? Take the grace and allow God to reveal to you what he's doing in you to draw you closer to Him. It's not a badge of honor and it's not a point of pride. It is God. If I do not rely on this grace, I am going to lose my mind because you have told me to stay in this marriage and I don't want to be here. Okay, but if you're giving me the grace to stay in a marriage that I don't want to be in. Okay, cool. Teach me how this is going to go. But to say that God releases grace, where was that grace for your husband to stay home.

[Adam Grant]

Oh, bro.

[Courtney]

And it's not to put the responsibility on you. It's saying, if we're going to pray for any kind of grace, let it be the grace to remain holy, let it be the grace to be able to forgive, and also for your marriage to be reconciled. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there doesn't need to be some kind of repentance. There doesn't need to be. Be some kind of council. There doesn't need to be some kind of. To some degree, because they are pastors. Public. Public retribution or public consequence. 100 and calling to justice. All of these things weren't done. So it feels like we heard an end of a story, but we didn't hear the redemptive process that happened through it. And I think it just makes the whole thing really sad because to me, I. When I think of grace, I think of God's saving grace and I think about the divine empowerment he puts on us to be able to live life according to how he said we should live it.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And in this, I didn't necessarily see that. What I saw is somebody covering up for somebody's lack of emotional awareness, for somebody's lack of accountability. And I think that happens a lot in conversations about infidelity. In the Christian space, women have to take up the responsibility for something un. A man should be taking the responsibility for. And people are all well and good with it happening. Because again, in society's eyes, if a man cheats, that's just normal. But if a woman was to cheat, suddenly we ain't talking about being graced for nothing.

[Adam Grant]

And the funny thing is, I love that you said that. This is literally the antithesis to the gospel. This is literally the antithesis to God's depiction of marriage.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Adam Grant]

The responsibility, if anything, really should be on the man.

[Courtney]

I don't know. I don't understand how you can bring your wife to sit next to. Again, it's the Derek Jackson thing. It's like, oh, bring your wife to sit next to you. And suddenly she is the one. And again, it's. Sometimes it's not even their fault. Holy. It's the way society views women. A man has come to sit down and said he cheated, and our eyes are looking at the woman like, okay, what did you do? What did you not do? And it's like, we need to. We need. We need Christian men to actually rise up and. And really put sometimes even over index on putting responsibility and accountability on men. Especially when it comes to non believers also seeing this and believers seeing this. When the eyes are on it, I think people should really hold men. I think this is the criticism that people have been raising against Lius where it's like, you've got this platform. A man is sitting, talking about he did this sin against his wife and you're kicking with him.

[Adam Grant]

And you are a believer too.

[Courtney]

And you are a believer. And they say that they are believers, therefore there should be a higher standard that you hold them to which says, this ain't a laughing matter, bro.

[Adam Grant]

Considering his past as well. There were just so many layers to it considering his.

[Courtney]

For a podcast that's called Dear Future Wifey, you seem to really want to condition your. Your wife, your future wife to accept something that it seems you might be preempting to do.

[Adam Grant]

It ain't it ain't. It ain't preempting. It's been, you know what I'm saying?

[Courtney]

It ain't preempting subtle conditioning for us to settle as Christian women and for us to just accept that this is.

[Adam Grant]

How it's going to be.

[Courtney]

You're going to marry a Christian.

[Adam Grant]

Absolutely not.

[Courtney]

And he's going to still have, you know, his flesh. There's the man and then there's the man.

[Adam Grant]

Absolutely not.

[Courtney]

If you can separate the man of God from the man and just cater to the man, what happened to see your flesh to death? Why am I deal? Why am I fighting your fleshly man? Why am I fighting your fleshly man in our marriage? Kill it.

[Adam Grant]

You actually killed me. Kill it.

[Courtney]

Kill it. We went to the altar together for it to die and you're telling me I'm still fighting your flesh?

[Adam Grant]

You have to bring that man by the ear. You know, when they do altar call, is there anybody here that wants to believe in Jesus for the first time? Clearly at the first? No.

[Courtney]

Genuinely, like, dealing with your flesh is not my job.

[Adam Grant]

It's not.

[Courtney]

It's your job to deal with your flesh. It's my job to deal with my flesh.

[Adam Grant]

That's actually quite insane. You know, Renee and I find it so wild that women are described as the weaker vessel. I find it so, so wild.

[Courtney]

No, but that's what you mean.

[Adam Grant]

As in why is it that in these instances men get a pass socially but also within a lot of religious contexts they get a pass and yet you describe women as the weaker vessel and yet we are to be the strength in a relationship. I really don't understand. Confused.com I don't know.

[Courtney]

And I again, I think it's this whole like marriage is a trophy and, and marriage is a trophy and we need to be careful with that notion because it's not just any marriage that you want.

[Adam Grant]

It's so true.

[Courtney]

Any quality of marriage, you actually want your. And I'm not saying that godly marriage is easy, bro, but that's why Paul said don't if you want to stay single.

[Adam Grant]

There is girl, when I say there's so much to unpack about this as well because I loved what you were saying and this is a conversation we have often around the accountability for those in place positions of leadership, especially within the church. You're being held to a higher standard.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

And not you just operating in, you know, your own community or whatnot, but to come on a public platform, knowing the office that you hold, to come and willingly put your wife through this level of shame without the public repentance, without any notion or semblance or understanding of your process of repentance. Yeah, I'm quite confused.

[Courtney]

I think it's quite irresponsible and I get it. Again, everyone has their own unique story and sometimes the public is not going to understand. Like I'm sure there are people who we may encounter offline who has, who have had wilder experiences. I have known of couples who there has been domestic violence, there has been infidelity, there have been all kinds of abuse. And yet they've been able to, you know, rekindle their marriage and now they're living a completely different dynamic in the. Their marriage. That is something that, yes, it does take an immense amount of grace, but that's not something that they would parade onto the Internet because it doesn't allow for nuance. Even if you had a six hour conversation, it would be hard for people to really understand what is happening in that situation. And so sometimes you just use it to minister to people in your real life and you let them know that like, yes, God really loves marriage.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

He really loves home holiness.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah. He hates.

[Courtney]

He hates sin.

[Adam Grant]

He really hates it.

[Courtney]

And if that's what's living in your marriage, you need to be careful. I also think this. This whole thing highlights a bigger issue. Which is what? Or another issue, sorry, which is what you were describing about the men not being attracted to the women, which is interesting. This whole thing of, like, you don't need to be physically attracted to your wife as long as she makes a good wife. And then you're using that to blame the cheated on.

[Adam Grant]

There's just a part of you that didn't fulfill me.

[Courtney]

Do you know what that's called? Foolishness. It's. It's a huge degree of foolishness. It's a huge degree of foolishness. That is a fool talking. Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something.

[Adam Grant]

This is so tangential. I can't wait for you to get old.

[Courtney]

No, this is what you call, you.

[Adam Grant]

Know, those grandmas that you go to and you're like, oh, what do you think about this? This is rubbish.

[Courtney]

Rubbish. This is rubbish. You know why? If I married you today knowing that you're a donkey. Yeah. And then after I marry you, I said, no, why are you not a horse? Do you get. Do you get. Do you get how dumb that is? And when I met you, sorry, you were saying, B, you were chewing grass and spit was coming from your mouth. Now I'm looking at you saying, why are you not a unicorn? Shoot outside rainbows.

[Adam Grant]

And it's the resentment.

[Courtney]

And now I'm resentful at the fact that you don't say nay. Just wanted a horse.

[Adam Grant]

Did you get what I need?

[Courtney]

But then why did you. Why did you put a ring on it then?

[Adam Grant]

Because in a lot of instances, these men are not in love with women.

[Courtney]

For what they are, but what they do for them.

[Adam Grant]

A lot of men enter into marriages thinking about, what can I get from this? And not what can I give. Yeah, marriage is sacrificial, but we've skewed it so much to the point that it's only women that are required to sacrifice and men that are required to obtain. Marriage is not about obtaining. Marriage is. Listen, if you want to kill your flesh, marriage is one of them. But it requires both of you absolutely kill your own flesh on a daily basis. Now you're looking at me looking for a horse.

[Courtney]

Maybe I read me, I was a goat and you knew that.

[Adam Grant]

And oh, gosh, Courtney is so layered because there's It. It. There is an Awkward and uncomfortable conversation that men also have to have with themselves.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Adam Grant]

To understand why they also can't. You're not your preference's preference. Oh, a lot of you are not your preferences. You'll describe. I want this petite, light skinned. Are you actually her preference?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Is this a. You settling or were you punching from the beginning?

[Courtney]

But I think it, I think another thing of it is though people get their preference, especially in the case of Christian men.

[Adam Grant]

Let's just talk about it.

[Courtney]

And actually Christian women do this on the flip. So I'll talk about you want a baddie. Okay, cool. But then she also has baddie behaviors. And you're like, no, but I, I need you to be holy.

[Adam Grant]

I want them a little bit bad.

[Courtney]

But you know, I want the bad slaps on.

[Adam Grant]

I want her to be a freaking.

[Courtney]

Dishes lazy in the streets. Right. And it's like they know that maybe they cannot convert their typical type.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Into the woman they know they need.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. Yeah. And so what they'll do is they'll desire and they won't kill that desire for the woman who they know maybe doesn't align with the future that they want. But then they'll go with a lady who is character wise, but they feel like they have to trade off the looks for that or they will not even vocalize like, okay, how can I help you to maybe become more of what I want? Is that even something that you desire? And then if she says no, they don't know how to leave her alone.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, right.

[Courtney]

Because they know, like you said, they can get, get, get. I think what makes that really, really dangerous and unfortunate is you're now married to somebody who realizes that they will never be the apple of your eye. And that is so painful. But also that is something that you have inflicted on them. They didn't ask you to come and pursue them. They didn't ask you or beg you to marry them. Some women are and they need to stop. Yeah, See, they didn't ask you to come and marry embarrassing. But you've now force them into a place where they are vulnerable. They don't feel appreciated. They must be insecure. And women do this as well. You, you said you wanted a man of God to come and lead your house. A man you could pray with, a man you could do life with, a man who is responsible. Right. But you keep going for these bad boys because the bad boys tickle your fancy. Because your fancy has been shaped by the world. And I'm not blaming you for that. When you spent Your whole life in the culture, discipled by the culture. That's what you want. You want the culture's type. I want what the TV shows, social media, my favorite vlogs, show me is the apex of manhood. Maybe I do want the James St. Patrick. Maybe I do want the. Insert roadmap here.

[Adam Grant]

Do you know what's even fun funny about James St. Patrick? He hated his wife.

[Courtney]

Anyway, we won't talk about that dynamic, but maybe that because. Because the world has, like, trained me to want this particular person. I haven't got rid of that appetite. Yeah, right. Like, I haven't got rid of my desire, my taste for that thing. And now I've entered into a kingdom where there is a different culture. It's crazy. You entered into a culture. You've entered into a kingdom with completely different culture, which tells you that a man should be like Christ. Yeah, right. Christ wasn't out here pushing dope. Christ wasn't out here swearing, effing blood and treating everybody however they want to treat.

[Adam Grant]

He wanted to treat these females.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? Christ wasn't out here calling women females.

[Adam Grant]

Do you know what this also reminds me of another tangent, but I don't know if you saw that guy. He's like a writer, podcaster. He got married, he's got a son, and he did a tribute to his wife saying, you are not the most.

[Courtney]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know this man.

[Adam Grant]

Neither.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Neither are you the most intelligent.

[Courtney]

But I love you. Is it hatred? Is it hatred? Is that something that you should say of the person you have called your crown?

[Adam Grant]

Starting off, though, I think is wild.

[Courtney]

I think that's why Christ said a man should love his wife as he loves himself. Does any man hate himself? What? You guys are opinions. You hate yourself. You detest yourselves. Actually, you detest yourselves. If I married somebody, even if I know you're not the brightest in the budget, for the simple fact that you are mine to me, President General, I even give you your own theme tube. What? You're my husband. If you are my husband. So if I'm out here making you look like nonsense is giving, it reflects on me.

[Adam Grant]

You're a donkey. But you're my donkey.

[Courtney]

Donkey. You're the best donkey. You poke heart so well. Is there anybody whose shoulders are more hedged than yours? That's what you should be saying. That's what you should be saying. You are actually out. Yes, yes, exactly. Because that's what you picked to be your point hook. So you package it and you make it nice.

[Adam Grant]

Dress up.

[Courtney]

You dress it up nice. You put a bow on it, you spray it with perfume and you say, this is. Yes, because that's the one you picked. I'm sorry. You could have left her. You could have left him again. So back to this example I'm giving in. Your appetite is for road men. Now you've stepped into kingdom. Kingdom says Jesus. And you're like, but Jesus isn't tough. He's not alpha, you know? And it's like. But it's what you need.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, it is.

[Courtney]

So now what you need to do is renew your.

[Adam Grant]

You do.

[Courtney]

You need to renew your mind. You need to renew your appetite. You need to expose yourself to something different. And you need to ask God to help you desire something that will be. Be good for you. That's always the prayer, God help me. Vegetables aren't good for people. Vegetables aren't even all that pretty.

[Adam Grant]

They're not. Not at all.

[Courtney]

Right. When you're used to maybe ultra processed foods, you're used to fast food. There's something about the saltiness and the sugariness and the. All of that stuff that just gets your mind going. And so if you've discipled your taste buds and your brain to love these chemicals, once you go on maybe like a raw food diet, that stuff tastes like crap. Real food and fruits and vegetables and whole grains. Tastes disgusting. But what do you do? You retrain your taste buds, you retrain your mind. You cut out what you used to desire, which you know is bad for you, and suddenly you go back to the old diet that you had and you realize this tastes nasty, tastes disgusting. Because I'm used to real food now. I'm used to healthy food now. And that's now what my appetite. Appetite has been trained. That is the process of transformation and renewal. It's God. Change my appetite, change my preferences, change my desire to desire what you know is good for me.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And then suddenly you're seeing that woman who maybe you would have never given a look to. Suddenly she's the most beautiful woman in the world because you see her the way God sees her. You see her the way God wants you to see her. Do you get what I mean? And I think that's, that's the part that sometimes we don't go. We come in wanting a godly marriage, but going in with a worldly view.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. And your eyes are so set on seeing people in. Against the world standards because you haven't really bought into God's standards.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You don't Actually think that that can satisfy you. And so, yes, you know, on a practical level, you need a good mother for your kids. But you don't understand how this is a good wife for you.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You don't understand how this woman is a blessing to you. This woman will bring favor to you. You. Yeah. And so then you go into your marriage disrespecting her and dishonoring her. And you wonder why your life is in disarray. Because how can the faith have been. How can the favor been be released when you dishonor your wife on a daily listen from the captions you write to you sleeping in somebody else's bed. Sort your life out.

[Adam Grant]

Kill it. Kill your flesh.

[Courtney]

It's sad. And I want more for Christian ladies, man. Like, more for all ladies. I want more for all ladies, absolutely. But particularly Christians. Yeah. God has not saved you and given you all of this wisdom and then put the desire for marriage in you, for you to now go and be with somebody who will put you to such shame, to put you to such shame. Like I think to myself, yes, there will be challenges in marriage. And I think this is to kind of close it off. This is that conversation about suffering and insurance. There will be challenges in marriages. You could be married to the richest, most handsome best man. For you, there will be some kind of challenge, whether it will be sickness, whether it will be poverty, whether it will be fighting. But whatever it may be, maybe it's barrenness, we don't know. But there's going to be some kind of challenge that arises because we are living in a fallen world and we are human beings. Right. And so I know that I, even in our friendship, I challenge you. You challenge me. Sometimes we come across some situations where we're like, this is a challenge. Okay, cool. We're going to have to overcome that. In those moments, I must not even activate. But I must pray that God has cultivated me a heart of patience.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

A heart of. Okay, I can. This is a down season for us. Me and my partner, me and my friend, whatever. This is a down season. Can I be steadfast this season? Can my love for this person still continue to run? Can I still hold true to my responsibilities? Can I still be loyal? Can I hold my vows? Because we're going through a challenging season, and I understand that that's what we are graced for. For. But God doesn't want you to live in that place perpetually, especially because of a fruit of your bad choices. God gives us so much wisdom around how to discern who our partner is and who we should say yes to. And he gives us that free will to give our yes to somebody.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

God won't pick your partner for you. Yeah, he will. He even brought Eve to Adam and said, even though I made you just for him, he still has to pick you. He still has to pick you. Do you get what I mean? He still has to pick. You are the perfect woman. There's no other woman in the world for him. But I still need to bring it in for him to pick you. I need him to choose you. Even with God creating the perfect person for you, you're still going to have to choose. And the reason why is choice gives you responsibility. You chose this person. You gave your vow to this person. Now you are responsible for this marriage. And so we now have to do our part to be responsible. And that's why marriage is not for the immature.

[Adam Grant]

It's not.

[Courtney]

And even if you are immature getting into marriage, you have to mature in your marriage. It's that simple.

[Adam Grant]

Quickly, quickly, quickly.

[Courtney]

So please, God will give you grace to mature in marriage. Even if you've made. Made. Made the wrong choice, God will help you. I truly believe he will. No, but it's going to be baptism by fire. It's going to be baptism by fire. And I pray that ultimately, like he does with everything, the glory of God would be revealed because it would be the best.

[Adam Grant]

That's what this is all about.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Adam Grant]

Is this. I think we need to ask ourselves that question a lot more before we do stuff. Does this actually honor God? Does me sharing this story does me bringing my wife on this platform does me articulating this in this way. Does this bring honor to God?

[Courtney]

Really? Yeah. Because what is the message God is trying to share through this? Or am I just sharing this story? And even if someone's like, no, this is such a good story, but do I have a revelation of what this is meant to share and show? If I don't have that yet, I'm not ready to share it.

[Adam Grant]

And we need to stop this glorification of. I'm just trying to be real.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

I'm just trying to be honest. I'm just trying to share what people actually go through.

[Courtney]

That's why people are dragging you through the streets. That's why people are dragging you through the streets.

[Adam Grant]

I'm just telling you like it is.

[Courtney]

There is such thing as premature transparency. There's a reason why we can't see women's bellies when they're holding babies. Because some things need to be covered in order to mature.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

The story is not finished yet. We don't even have full revelation. In fact, some of the scars are still on our back. As in, there is no need for me to be bringing this to a platform for public judgment. Let's not be too hasty. To be real and to be transparent, it's actually a sign of immaturity in itself to put things on display too prematurely.

[Adam Grant]

That's really good.

[Courtney]

It's a sign of immaturity in itself, especially if the wounds are still fresh or again, you don't know. What is the purpose for this transparency? What is the purpose for this display? What is the point of putting on this later?

[Adam Grant]

And child, I saw you. This was going to be one of those conversations that we could talk about this because there's so many layers to it.

[Courtney]

Yeah. But overall, you know, thank God you're such an auntie. End of the day, thank God, you know, thank God that they're still married.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

I pray that they can work through especially everything that this has brought up.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah, for sure.

[Courtney]

I pray that they can work through it. And I. I pray for Lius, because he's got a really big platform.

[Adam Grant]

He does. Yeah. He really.

[Courtney]

And I understand the mission that he started this podcast out with was to prepare for his own future wife. And I do pray that the conversations he has with various people and offline as well helps him to actually do that.

[Adam Grant]

Amen.

[Courtney]

But I do pray God gives him wisdom on how to continue to steward this platform to help people who are Christians and non Christians who just want to know how to do marriage. Right. In a world and in a culture where marriage is already so messy and to some degree, quite dishonored.

[Adam Grant]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

As a institution. So, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Grant]

Well, sisters, our time is very much well spent if you enjoyed that episode. In fact, if you have something to say.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Adam Grant]

We want to hear it. We desire strongly, strongly to hear it. So please, please drop it like it's hot in the comments below. If you are a Spotify listener, there's now a brilliant new feature where you can actually comment. And we love to see it, girls. Like, what did you think about the episode? What did you think about this online trend? What did you think about suffering and smiling through marriage? We'd love to hear it. If you have an experience. We'd also love to hear that too. So drop that like that is hot below. And of course, you can follow us on all of our social media platforms at. To my sisterhood, literally on everything. Everything. Instagram, LinkedIn, X Tik Tok all all of the platforms. We are there. And of course, whilst you're at it, please come and follow us individually, my lovely hot hot, hot fire bestie. And you can come and follow me over at Renee Kapuku.

[Courtney]

We love to see it. And if you want to stay in the loop of everything that's happening in the TMS universe, you need to sign up to the mailing list. Head over to our website on www.tomy sisters.com you can sign up to the mailing list. It's free, it's weekly. We send you all notifications about what's going on, events, events, as well as a love note for yourself for the week. So yeah, we'll talk to you very, very soon. And as always, keep glowing and growing.

[Renee]

Hello, this is Dani from everything Iconic. There is tea to spill and as always, I'm here for it. The all new season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is now now streaming on Hulu. We'll finally get to see what's going on with our favorite saints and sinners. This season is a tangled web of jealousy, exes and drama. It's going to be pure insanity. I'm so excited. Don't miss the new season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives now streaming on Hulu.