"Don't Do Business With Your Friends!": Navigating Conflict, Comparison & Offence in Partnerships

Summary

Podcast Summary: "To My Sisters" - Episode "Don't Do Business With Your Friends!": Navigating Conflict, Comparison & Offence in Partnerships

Released: November 3, 2024

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of To My Sisters, hosts Courtney Daniella Boateng and Renée Kapuku explore the intricate dynamics of partnering with friends and family in business. Building on their recent conversations with successful entrepreneurs like the founder and CEO of Plant Made and Sweet Life of Vedette, Courtney and Renée delve deep into the challenges and rewards of intertwining personal relationships with professional ventures.

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Understanding the Challenges of Friend-Family Business Partnerships

Courtney and Renée kick off the discussion by addressing the prevalent skepticism surrounding business partnerships involving friends and family. Renée highlights the modern shift towards individualism and self-sufficiency, which contributes to people's hesitancy in blending personal and professional spheres.

Renée:
"We are in an era where a lot of people are living quite self-contained lives... I think people are quite nervous about the prospect of working with somebody that is also someone you have a personal relationship with."
[05:07]

The hosts emphasize that fears of relationship breakdowns, self-sabotage, and the inherent vulnerability in such multifaceted relationships often deter individuals from pursuing business partnerships with loved ones.

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Character and Competence: The Cornerstones of Successful Partnerships

A significant portion of the podcast revolves around discerning the right traits in a potential business partner who is also a friend or family member. Renée underscores the importance of consistency, kindness, and the ability to accept and act on feedback.

Renée:
"Character keeps the door open... Somebody with good character is somebody who loves interacting with people and shows respect to everyone."
[20:33]

Courtney adds that a growth mindset and resilience are essential, likening character to pregnancy—something that becomes evident over time and remains consistent through various situations.

Courtney:
"Character is like pregnancy. You can hide it, but you can only hide it for some time."
[00:32]

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Maintaining Relationships in Business: Strategies and Best Practices

The hosts discuss practical strategies for maintaining both the friendship and the business. They advocate for regular check-ins, clearly separating business and personal conversations, and establishing clear boundaries and responsibilities.

Courtney:
"We have to do some kind of co-founder retreat or something... to talk about these issues because it's very, very tough."
[73:20]

Renée emphasizes the importance of proactive relationship management to prevent misunderstandings and ensure both the friendship and business thrive.

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Effective Communication: The Key to Navigating Conflict

Effective communication is highlighted as vital for preventing misunderstandings and maintaining healthy partnerships. Courtney and Renée stress the need to be direct yet respectful, cushioning feedback with affirmation and affection to preserve both the relationship and the business.

Renée:
"Sometimes the most effective tool to disarm an argument before it starts is affirmation and affection."
[30:09]

Courtney:
"We also need to catch yourself before somebody says that to you. So self-awareness is so, so key..."
[29:53]

They discuss the balance between being honest and respectful, ensuring that feedback is delivered in a way that fosters growth and understanding rather than causing hurt.

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Handling Difficult Situations: When Business Strains the Relationship

When business partnerships face strain, the hosts advise taking time for self-reflection, identifying specific issues separately, and focusing on repairing the relationship or making tough decisions about the partnership.

Renée:
"If you have something that works, continue to ride it out... But if not, it's okay to let the business go and work on the relationship."
[56:41]

Courtney:
"Sometimes you have to throw a dart naked. It's gonna be straight... So you need the person that's going to be the target of this to be padded up themselves."
[34:39]

They advocate for addressing issues head-on while maintaining the integrity of the personal relationship, emphasizing that sometimes it's necessary to dissolve the business to preserve the friendship.

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Dilemma Section: Listener’s Heartbreak and Seeking Closure

In the latter part of the episode, Courtney and Renée address a listener’s poignant dilemma involving betrayal in a romantic relationship tied to a reality TV show. The listener shares her experience of feeling betrayed and seeks advice on whether to seek closure or let go.

Renée:
"Should I ask for closure or let it go?"
[75:34]

The hosts respond with heartfelt support, reinforcing their earlier points about recognizing unhealthy relationships and prioritizing self-worth over seeking explanations from those who may not provide genuine closure.

Courtney:
"Girl, if you don't let that thing go... He has shown you multiple times who he is. You don't want to be in this situation."
[77:17]

Renée:
"Closure is actually the worst. Whoever came up with the concept of closure being the appropriate response every single day?"
[83:25]

They advise moving forward by focusing on self-healing rather than seeking closure from an untrustworthy partner.

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Conclusion: Nurturing and Protecting Your Business and Friendships

Courtney and Renée wrap up the episode by reiterating the importance of not taking relationships and business ventures for granted. They emphasize maintaining proactive communication, celebrating successes, and continuously investing in both the personal and professional aspects of the partnership.

Courtney:
"Don't get complacent, don't get prideful, don’t get egotistical. Identify what's working and guard that fiercely."
[67:29]

Renée:
"Celebrate yourselves. Have time to celebrate important milestones... It brings you closer together."
[60:57]

They encourage listeners to implement the discussed strategies to build strong, resilient partnerships with friends or family, ensuring both the friendship and the business can thrive harmoniously.

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Key Takeaways

• Assess Character and Competence: Ensure potential partners exhibit consistency, kindness, and receptiveness to feedback.
• Maintain Clear Boundaries: Separate business discussions from personal conversations to prevent conflicts.
• Effective Communication: Be direct yet respectful, using affirmation and affection to maintain harmony.
• Proactive Relationship Management: Regular check-ins and celebrating successes strengthen both the business and the friendship.
• Handle Conflicts Wisely: Address issues constructively, considering the impact on both the business and the personal relationship.
• Prioritize Self-Healing Over Closure: Focus on personal growth and healing rather than seeking closure from unreliable partners.

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By addressing these aspects thoughtfully, Courtney and Renée provide a comprehensive guide for listeners navigating the challenging yet rewarding path of partnering with friends and family in business.

Transcript

[Renee]

Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently I asked Mint Mobile's legal team if big wireless companies are allowed to raise prices due to inflation. They said yes. And then when I asked if raising prices technically violates those onerous two year contracts, they said, what the are you talking about, you insane Hollywood. So to recap, we're cutting the price of mint Unlimited from $30 a month to just $15 a month. Give it a [e-mail] Switch $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month New customers on first 3 month plan only Taxes and fees Extra speeds slower above 40 gigabyte C Details.

[Courtney]

Character is like pregnancy. You can hide it, but you can only hide it for some time.

[Renee]

Guard your eyes, guard your ears because the way that people will be saying things and showing you things and ah, all it takes is a seed.

[Courtney]

We all often say when we're asked this question. It's about character and competence. Right. You want somebody with good character, but you want somebody who's really competent.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

What would you say people need to be discerning about somebody's character in order for something like this to actually work?

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a beautiful question. Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.

[Courtney]

And I'm Courtney and we are your online sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.

[Renee]

Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of community of sisters across the world.

[Courtney]

And in today's episode we are going to be talking about the real tea behind working with your friend. Co founder, relationships, breakups. Yeah. The heartbreak of it all and just how to leverage friendship for business. Right. We this is off the back of Amazon episode which came out last week. Go and check that out. We sat down with the founder and CEO of Plant Made, a wellness and hair care company based right here out of the UK which started with £100 and has scaled to over £10 million in revenue in just four years. Talk about multiplied girl. She's a big big girl. And Amma came and dropped so much wisdom about business navigating business in the uk but also how she is building a family business, how she works with her COO who is her fiance but also her CFO who is her brother and how she has leveraged her family and friends to create a real titan of a company. And so that kind of brought to mind our relationship as best. We also had a conversation with the one and only Sweet Life of Vedette. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Our friend Vedette who also was I think two Episodes before Amaz, we sat down with Vedette on her podcast Cashing up with Vedette. Go and check out that episode. And she wanted to talk about co founder relationships. We kind of touched on it in the tell end of her episode. But Vedette also started her company with a co founder and her friend and that friendship and co founder relationship ended at the same time and it was her heartbreaking. And so we caught up on that and our perspective on that on her podcast. And I thought since this is in the air, yeah, since Vidette's talking about it, Amma's talking about it, we're living it. Why not actually have this conversation about working with your best friend, actually starting a company, what it takes, what makes us do it well and have been doing it well for the last four years and hopefully talk about the elements of friendship, but also business as entrepreneurs that allow this to work so well. So hopefully if you're an entrepreneur or if you're a woman who wants to go into a business with a co founder, or maybe you and your friend have this lit business idea together and you're thinking, but should I really go into business with my friend or a member of my family? This episode is for you. So before we get into it, do we have any housekeeping?

[Renee]

Housekeeping. The only housekeeping I can think of is the fact that we are going international.

[Courtney]

Okay.

[Renee]

So speaking of the dare, we have actually partnered with Sorted Chalet for a number of years to deliver none other than an annual retreat for the sisters. We have been to incredible places like Tanzania, we have been to Bali, we have been to South Africa, and now we are going to Ghana. From 1st March to 8th March, we are taking a whole bunch of sisters, a gaggle of girls, if you will, to go and enjoy, but also to do some meaningful work. We'll be doing journal corners. We'll be really thinking about setting our intentions for the rest of the year and ending Q1 of 2025. Right. So sisters, if you haven't already, we would implore you. The link is in the description. We have put it literally everywhere.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Renee]

If you're part of the mailing list, you know it stays there. If you're following us on socials, you know we have been posting about it. Make sure you are part of the next unforgettable TMS trip with Sorted Chalet and make sure that you secure your spot because it's about to be turned all the way up.

[Courtney]

Fantastic. Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, let's jump into the conversation and then we'll end the episode with a dilemma. Why do you think we get asked this question so often around working with your friend and how do we actually make it work? What's the backdrop and context to that?

[Renee]

Yeah, man, I think there's just a lot of haters outside, right? I think there's a lot of haters, a lot of witches, a lot of. No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I think we've spoken about this at length before in a couple of our podcasts, but we are in a very, very selfish era. We are in the era of the dawn of capitalism. We are in an era where a lot of people are living quite self contained lives. And I think especially as we come out of, we're still, I guess, dealing with the effects of the pandemic, the rise of loneliness, the necessity of fending for yourself, the narratives that are coming out around self sufficiency and being independent. I think people are quite nervous about the prospect of working with somebody that is also. You've also got a personal relationship with as well. I think the stakes become quite high because not only are you navigating something that's quite personal, but you're also navigating something that's legal and business. And I think because a lot of the popular narratives that we, you know, gain a lot of traction online as well as in person, they often tend to be negative. I think more people hear negative stories around friendship, around business than they do the positive stuff. And it's quite unfortunate because I do think that for every like 10 negative stories, there's probably like a thousand positive stories of being able to work on at least something with your friend. And I think this idea of not mixing spheres really does need to be challenged because rather than seeing these things as a weakness, we should be seeing them as sources of strength. Right. The fact that you know somebody quite intimately, the fact that you're able to. The fact that you're able to build something, it doesn't necessarily have to be a business, but at least building a relationship. You would think that we naturally be more inclined to seeing this as a strength as opposed to a weakness, but I think there is just something that's quite. There's another layer of vulnerability that is required when entering into a multifaceted relationship with someone. And I think another thing that I would add to that as well is fear. A lot of people are afraid of getting into that place with their friend or with people that they know quite intimately and personally.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And the fear may be the Fear of breakdown which inevitably leads to self sabotage. It may be the fear of, of this actually working out and then at the end of the day the dynamic of your friendship or the dynamic of your relationship changes. So I think there is also a lot of fear in that hesitancy to pursue a relationship that's a little bit more dynamic, that has a lot more facets, that requires a lot more of us than oftentimes we're willing to give. So yeah, I think it's a combination of those things that spring to mind for me when people are a bit like, what do you mean? Working with my friend? It's a bit. It's a lot.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I think also the intensity as well. I think just even based off of our relationship, I definitely think our relationship has changed. I think it's changed for the better for the most part. To be honest with you. I think one of the words we often use around our friendship is oh, you know, maturity. Obviously they're still like banter and like Courtney's actually masses. Like that's. She is like, of course she's not paying me to say this guys, but she's genuinely like, if not the funniest, one of the funniest people that I know.

[Courtney]

Like, yeah, single handed, hands down. I've met all of you. I've met you. I cannot.

[Renee]

Do you know how funny that is? Because that's true. Sorry. To all the friends of Renee and family of Renee. She has met you. She has met you. And. And you know what's actually for our. Not just turning into the. We love Courtney.

[Courtney]

Oh, lol.

[Renee]

But no, no, but genuinely of people that I meet when they give me feedback about you, it's often, wow, Courtney is actually hilarious. She's actually really funny. And I know that you guys often see like quite a serious side of Courtney and that she's very intelligent and the way that she articulates herself in person. Courtney is the most unserious person that you will meet. Genuinely. The tiktoks and the memes that she, she actually like gives me a run for my money occasionally. I think I've just got the edge. I've got the edge. But you are actually one of the most funniest and unserious people that I know and I love that about the.

[Courtney]

Thing is though, I don't think my humor is unserious. I think it's very serious. Like I think it's very witty and just.

[Renee]

This is true. They want to say this is true but I think people like, because it's so serious. It's actually unseen. You know what I mean?

[Courtney]

Like, especially in the timing.

[Renee]

In the timing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The timing is like a very serious thing. But because it's such an unserious point that you've made about this serious thing, or like vice versa. Hilarious.

[Courtney]

Might tell you a joke. I ain't gonna tell you a lie.

[Renee]

Period. Period. One thing about Courtney, go tell you the truth. Hello.

[Courtney]

But, yeah, sorry to your point.

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry. We are friends and I love the fact that we've been able to retain that sense of banter. Not without work, mind you, because I think there's also that. I think in order to maintain anything, it requires work.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

And there's the thing about life and a lot of the things that we are called to attain, we are often given the cheat code to enter the place. But in terms of maintain it, that's where things get a little bit rocky. And I think the maintenance of these things can cause people to have a little bit of fear and anxiety because it requires us to do ongoing work. And I think for a lot of us, especially how we conceptualize a lot of our friendships, a lot of our friendships tend to be friendships of convenience or friendships where there's a certain, like, archetype that we fall into. It seems very easy. And I think that step up from just friends to co founder or even vice versa, I haven't seen the reverse just yet. But I mean, I've seen a lot of co founders become friends eventually. But when you add another layer, it requires another element of maintenance.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

And that requires work. And work is hard. And unfortunately in this life, a lot of people don't want to do hard things. And that's understandable.

[Courtney]

Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. I think the backdrop to that question often is the cultural stories or experiences we have that may even have been passed on to us and is secondhand of people trying to collaborate, trying to do things in community, trying to do things together and experiencing the harsher realities of that and the more negative outcomes of that, which could be betrayal or loss or deceit, whatever it may be like, I think too, even in a more. Not that this is not serious, this is actually quite serious. But like, you know, our parents, I'm building a house back home, who's helping my brother, my cousin, my friend, my da, da, da. And it's like 10 years later, they've chopped the money.

[Renee]

Everyone has that.

[Courtney]

They've actually chopped the money. I think even growing up, hearing things like that and knowing it can be your own People.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

That actually derail your vision or your plan or something that could advance you and them, you know, wanting to start a business together with your friend and suddenly there's. There's lies involved or there's people not being 100% honest or just looking out for their own self interest. And I think that's one thing that co founder relationships with friends and family in particular require a lot of selflessness and a lot of putting egos aside, which I think is easier to do when you're just doing business based on the numbers and based on the business plan and based on this. Makes sense. A value exchange versus now a relationship of some kind, being involved. Because when it is two strangers coming together to be co founders, it's easy. It's like, oh, this makes sense. You know, we're doing this because this will naturally be the outcome.

[Renee]

Absolutely.

[Courtney]

I'm going to hold you accountable to the things that we've written down and the things you said you do and your skill set and vice versa. Whereas with friendship and family members, it's like it's more about sentiment and oh, I would have wanted you to do this or I would have expected this of you. And sometimes that goes unexpressed, which I think also leads to the downfall of those kind of relationships as well. So I think that's one huge backdrop of it. It can be your own people who really stab you in the back. I think another element of it also is people, like you said, having that individualistic mentality, which is, if I'm going to do it, I want my name to be on the front.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Like actually just not wanting to do things with other people. They're happy for other people to help, but they're not comfortable sharing ownership.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

And I think sharing ownership is something that we need to discuss within our community. I wouldn't even just say within the context of business, but even within the context of things like family.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Friendship. Like a lot of us are used to dynamics where either you are the dominant one or you're the passive one. There is no I. There is. There is barely any real accountability around reciprocity and shared responsibility and equals division of responsibility as well. Or even just expressed structured responsibilities being shared out to people. I think a lot of us haven't experienced that or seen that effectively apart from in our workplace. Right. Which is when you can then develop this dynamic of employer, employee versus this idea of true partnership and collaboration where two people have somewhat equal ownership over something. So it's like if you didn't see Your parents share ownership of the household and like share responsibility of the household effectively and actually have healthy communication with each other. You don't know what it's like to have a co laborer in a, in a healthy way, right? And be able to have those conversations and see somebody take up their side and apologize when they've let their side fall, etc, and I think that then crosses over into business because you learn that you can lead alone. Like leadership alone can also be effective, right? Like when you are the be all and end all or you are the full stop of a sentence and all ideas pass through you because you are the bottleneck, that is actually to some degree a lot easier than having to discuss it with someone else who also has their own ideas and their own skill set and their own needs and their own expectations. And so I think we haven't necessarily seen collaboration and co sharing done effectively and healthily for a lot of us. I would say, personal experience wise, we don't think that co founder relationships are a beneficial thing. And which is why I think that what Amma was touching on in her last in the tail end of her episode was really powerful, which is that actually we need to reframe a lot of how we have these conversations about working with family or working with friends. Because when you look at like businesses that are doing successful and when you look at businesses that are successful or are being successful, they are often ran by people who share a similar mindset, who share a similar background and like you said, have an intimate relationship which allows them to do this business thing on a much deeper level. And I think to some degree that helps you to get ahead because there's a lot of. Whilst there can sometimes be assumed familiarity over familiarity, sometimes there's now a deep level of respect and reverence there which actually makes people act better than they would if they were a stranger to you. Like, as much as it can be your own people, sometimes it's people you don't know who actually do the worst. Do you get what I mean? And so the prayer and the hope and sometimes you can't bet these things in business on like hope and prayer. But like that's, that's all we got. So sometimes the hope and the prayer is actually because me and this person have a relationship and I've been able to see their character over time and I know that they love me and they deeply respect and revere what we have going on. I actually believe that they would hold this to a higher esteem than they would if they were just Somebody on the clock or somebody who was just getting paid to be here. And so I think we also need to reframe our thinking sometimes. But not everybody is worthy of such trust. And I think that brings us to a conversation. I want to touch on what you said actually around doing the work and what that entails. But I think in the middle of that actually is discerning who you're meant to do this with.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

And seeing whose heart is actually in the right place. And the character, we often say when we're asked this question, it's about character and competence. Right. You want somebody with good character, but you want somebody who's really competent.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

What would you say people need to be discerning about somebody's character in order for something like this to actually work?

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a beautiful question. And I love that you asked that question because we were recently hosting a workshop. Well, I mean, we've been hosting a whole bunch of work. We've been outside, you know, and it's been working. We been on the clock together and we have been hosting a bunch of workshops on community building and the importance of community building internally in terms of you having co founder relationships, in terms of you having business relationships and other personal relationships, and then also building a community. So the internal and the external. And I think what's very interesting is we've touched on the importance of sharing the same values, or at least similar values that we can respect.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So even in terms of discerning character, character is really about how does a person conduct themselves? What is a person saying about themselves without saying it? And in terms of discerning good character, the first thing that pops to mind for me is consistency. I think that a lot of us are prone to showing up well when the environmental factors are just right or when they're optimal. Right. You want to find somebody who is consistent in the way that they show up for themselves and other people. So. So you can see that with your friends. Obviously we say, oh, you know, I love my friend, but really think about the ways that they show up for you and show up for themselves in different settings. Because when you find somebody that's consistent, you can bank on the fact that they're probably consistent in other areas too. It's actually a principle that they live by rather than something that is conditional on the environment. And that's what you need when it comes to character. I think another hallmark feature of good character would probably be the kindness and the respect they show people in general. Irrespective of where they're at in like social hierarchy. So I know like, for example, in dating we often think, oh, I'm going on a date with this guy. Like the way that he treats like waiters or waitresses and stuff really matters because it's indicative of how they value people. And I think somebody with good character knows that love is not discriminatory. It is somebody that is able to show the same amount of respect to the CEO as they are to a cleaner or a waitress or somebody that's in a service oriented worker space or force. And that's really important because when you're doing business with somebody, you have to really be thinking about who are your customers, who are your clients, who are some of the people that you're going to interact with on a day to day basis. So for example, taking like myself and Courtney as a case study, I know that whoever interacts with Courtney for the most part shout. Unless like she's going through it and somebody has like beaten her up or something. Like even then, even then. Because me, I'll show up to you and be like, put them up. Do you know what I mean? Like even then. But I trust the fact that when we say sisterhood, Courtney is going to show up as a sister irrespective of who you are, what you're dealing with. And I have heard nothing but good things about Courtney interacting with people. Like genuinely her, your reputation proceeds.

[Courtney]

Yeah, a few emails now like she, I was having a bad day.

[Renee]

But even then, even then, even then. But that's a principle in of itself. Like, yes, there will. This is not to say that this is a yardstick that they have to fit to 100% of the time because things happen and you know, you can't expect someone to be perfect. But for the majority of the time, if you can bet on the fact that this is a person that shows up as a loving person, then that's really important. Especially when it comes to character. Because character, wait, no, no, no. Character keeps the door open. And there's too many of us that think that we can be nice for a set period of time and then we can drop the act as soon as we get what we want. So I. Is very, very important for you to be somebody that actually loves people, that loves interacting with people, or at the very minimum is actually kind to people. Like, it's really, really important. I think also another character trait to discern for is somebody that's capable of learning and somebody that's teachable. We make mistakes and in relationships that you have with people, you will make a mistake. You are not a perfect person. The question is not whether you will make a mistake. The question is how do you deal with the mistakes that you make? Are you somebody that's humble? Are you somebody that's open and receptive to feedback? Are you somebody that is keen to learn ways to overcome, ways to prevent all of these preventable issues from happening in the first place? Are you somebody that people can even approach to give feedback to you? Because we sometimes even have friends or people around us whereby we can't even share feedback because we know they're going to take it personally. They're going to get really defensive. They're going to get really rude. Are you somebody that is easily triggered by feedback? And that's really important, especially when you're doing business with someone. Boy, there's going to be some things that you do bad.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Not even that you've done wrong. You do badly. There are some things that, at the beginning of this journey, I did badly. Like, as much as we talk about, you know, competence, right. There are going to be some things where you are going to have to upskill or there's going to be some challenges that actually require you to level up. But before you level up, you have to recognize what are the things that are pulling you down. And sometimes it's another person in your circle that will be able to point out those issues to you. The question is, are you going to be able to receive it when they do? And if you don't, then I'm sorry, that's a character flaw. Because you need that feedback to be able to improve and to become a better person. So somebody with good character is somebody who is also able to take feedback. They're teachable, they're keen to learn new things, and they're keen to really try, and they're keen to embrace this philosophy of continuous improvement. Because your business and your relationship will always be capped at your level of teachability. If you are not ready to be taught, child, the bag ain't gonna be caught. You gotta leave it alone. It ain't gonna happen. So I think those are the three, like, big things that come to mind. Yeah, but what about you?

[Courtney]

I think that's really. I think you've covered it, really. I think it's. It's somebody who has that growth mindset. It's. You're looking for somebody who is willing to adapt with this journey and just generally, across all boards, is not a quitter, like, and doesn't quit easily. I Think that's one thing. I remember going to church once and the first lady said, character is like pregnancy. You can hide it, but you can only hide it for some time. It will show. And I think that's one thing. When you are trying to start a business with someone or do something with anyone, even build a relationship, have you given yourself enough time to see this character show? Right. And it's really about, have I seen this person in all seasons? Have I seen them? How do they handle work? How do they handle their family? How do they carry themselves? How do they treat different people in different environments? What does a bad day look like for them? Because everyone's real good. Hit them with the right bad day.

[Renee]

Listen.

[Courtney]

Hit them with the right bad day. And the question is, how often do bad days happen? And how do they deal with the fact that life and business and relationships aren't always going to be hunky dory? Right. How do they also deal with me when I'm not having a great day? Right. What. What does having a relationship with this person look like? What are they like holistically? And you have to give yourself enough time to see that. I think sometimes the beauty of business is cushioned by a contract. Which means that I don't actually need to wait to see your character, because as soon as you act up, I've got grounds to get rid of your ass. However, when you are a friend with someone, whilst you can terminate a contract, what's going to happen to the state of this relationship that's left after that business relationship has ended? And so you aren't just standing on this guarantee of, well, if you don't act right, I can just get rid of you. Because this is somebody who's been in your life before the business even existed. So now you've got to really take the most calculated risk you can and really ask yourself, is this worth going into with this person? Can they withstand the storm? Essentially, that's what you're trying to see. Can this person, if we're running out of money, if we have to make some really tough decisions, if someone has to take the lead on something, can this person lead or can this person follow? Can this person handle where it is we're going? And the pressure and the stress, like what? What can this person do and not do?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I think that we need to give ourselves enough time to see that for real. Because we can't jump into this thing blind. We can't jump into it thinking that we're cushioned by contracts. No, because it will cost us this entire relationship if we do not, if we do this prematurely, essentially. I also think with the character thing, you also have to think about your own character. Because like I was saying with like earlier, why people sometimes ask this question is too many egos are involved and sometimes the biggest ego is yours. You're not just dealing with the ego of your co founder or your friend or whoever. You're dealing with your own ego and your own pride and what you think you should get out of this. And you're not coming, maybe with the posture of, oh, I'm going to serve no matter what, or actually, can I fall back when this person's competence proves to be greater than mine in this area? Can I actually take a step back or do I need to be the one who's at the head of the table? How do I feel sharing glory? Like, when you really ask yourself these questions, sometimes you realize it's your character that comes. You're actually the problem. You're the person who can't collaborate. Right. And so you have to also ask yourself, like, I'm gonna be real. What is my relationship with competition? What is my relationship with jealousy? Do I compare myself all the time to this person? Do I actually want to see this person shine? Because that's what's going to happen. You can't be walking with somebody hand by, like side by side, sorry, equally yoked and think only you will be the star of the show. That's not how this thing works.

[Renee]

And you know them ones where it's like you're happy for someone to shine, but not bright. Exactly. Only so much because the moment that just one single ray might outstrip yours.

[Courtney]

There'S a problem, there's an issue. And you have to contend with that in your own mind and in your own heart. Because at the end of the day, if you can't get over, it's the business that will suffer and it's your relationship that will suffer as a result as well. I think when, when we start to think about co founder relationships and relation, doing business with a friend, you have to remember that at the end of the day, there is something in the middle of us, which is our business, which actually needs to be nurtured and needs to grow. And it will only flourish at the same rate as our maturity and our friendship. Right. And if we do not deal with some of the things that stop friendships from blooming, the business is not going to bloom either. Right. Which is why you need to deal with whatever may be underlying in your Heart as a friend before you go into business with this person because it will only manifest in business and it will just be coded and made up and cosmeticized with business language. You know, but actually what you're doing is being passive aggressive or you're being, you know, insubordinate. And we need to be careful of the stuff like this because that's what causes bitterness to rise up. Yeah. And I think with business relationships, oftentimes because people are trying to be professional, they won't tell you you need to fall back and hold your peace. Listen, do you know what I mean? They won't say that to you. However, sometimes you need to catch yourself before somebody says that to you. So self awareness is so, so key and doing that inner work is so key before going into this because it's hard. Like it's really hard and you're going to face a lot of challenges and okay, how does this work? How do this made me feel like this. But similar to how your boss can make you feel some type of way and you don't go around sending long paragraphs in emails. You've got to also learn to carry that same professionalism into your friendship and not become complacent on that over familiarity of, well, this is my friend, so I can just let them know my mind. That's how you lose your. Your business and that's how you lose your friend.

[Renee]

Oh boy. Not double homicide.

[Courtney]

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

[Renee]

Geez. Embarrassing.

[Courtney]

That is exactly what happened. So I would say also work on your own character alongside giving yourself enough time to see the true character of the person you want to go into business with actually manifest as well.

[Renee]

Absolutely. I love that so, so much. And also what you were saying really made me think of the importance of delivery. Yeah. I think sometimes communication and delivery actually. Right. Because I think sometimes over familiarity and is such a great enabler of bad behavior.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

You think that just because you know someone, you can disrespect them or you can treat lightly the things that should be honored. Right. There are certain ways that people speak to their friends or people around them that I'm sorry, I will never refer to Courtney like that or like I will never speak to my friends that way. And I think that comes as part of the self awareness piece, but also cultivating your character and your values and making sure that you honor that code. I think what's really what we've really benefited from is we have a almost unwritten. We speak about it, but we have an almost unwritten code. As to how we actually engage with each other. What are the rules of our community? Communication. And sometimes you have to be very explicit about that as opposed to falling back on assumptions that we may have which are predicated by familiarity and delivery is important. The amount of times that I've heard like relationships fall to pieces because people have come direct. Direct is not a synonym for rude.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And too many people think that because I'm being direct, I'm not being rude. No, you're actually just being rude or.

[Courtney]

Just because it's too truth, it's not going to hurt.

[Renee]

And no one is saying that you have to soften the blow completely. But you need to deliver things in a respectful manner and with an intention to actually save the relationship. I think sometimes people be like, oh, yeah, like they should know what I mean. No.

[Courtney]

Yeah. No, not at all.

[Renee]

No. And I think that's also part of the work of maintaining relationships. It is making sure that you do these regular check ins as to how are we adhering to the code of engaging with each other? How are we adhering to the code that we have that sets our values between us? Are we still comfortable with the way that we are, you know, speaking to each other? Are we still comfortable with the way that we are addressing some of these key issues? Are we comfortable with the way that we are addressing conflict? Because too many of us are coming to conflict with either bullhorns or we're trying to sidestep it completely and neither way is going to be helpful nor productive at all.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I completely agree. And I do, I do think there's an element though of cushioning that has to be done within co founder or business relationships with friends and families and having those awkward conversations though. And I think it's cushioning on both ends, which is, I do think, and this could be by virtue of us being women in business together, because I don't know about male co founder relationships and how they talk to each other and how they interact, some of them. But I do think in experience I would say when it comes to communicating certain things with you, I would cushion it and Padgett pad it a lot more than I would with other people. People. Right. Because. And when I say cushion and paddy, it's not that I'm not being direct, it's not that I'm not being honest and it's not that I don't think you can handle it. It's more so I will give that context of, you know, I love you, you know, I want this business to work you know, you're my best friend. You know, after this conversation, we're not going to end this friendship and you're stuck with me, that kind of thing, because I want that context to always be. I'm saying this from a place of love.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

But what I'm about to sandwich in the middle of this has to be really direct. And then afterwards as well, again with this cushioning thing, Afterwards as well, more time to actually work through that feedback and work through that very awkward conversation. So sometimes with us, like these impromptu business conversations are literally impromptu because we live together. Right. So it's actually now I realize I'm going to engage in a conversation with Renee. It's not a simple. Can I book in 30 minutes in your calendar as your. Maybe your manager would or, you know, someone else who you're working with just more professionally would book a meeting with you. It may end up being a 4 hour, 3 hour, 5 hour conversation or a whole evening laid out on the couch thinking, okay, let's go back and forth and let's tussle with this thing because we don't want to leave this point with anything in our hearts that could adjust or affect our friendship.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

As well. So I think there's an element of cushion in there. However, the reason why I say cushioning goes both ways is sometimes you find yourself in environments where a three hour, four hour conversation cannot be had. And so you really are just interacting as business people. Right. As. As people working on something from a professional standpoint. And in those times, times, it's very easy for sharp things to fly on. On uncushioned.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. It's very easy for sharp things to go out completely. What do they call it, like unguarded?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

If that makes sense. There's no safety wear on this thing. There's nothing that's going to dull this blow. It's going to be sharp because it's a quick decision that needs to be made or a quick thing that needs to be said. And in that instance, what the reason why I'm saying this is a second side of cushioning. You have to cushion yourself.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

If this thing is going to fly without any safeguard on it, you need to make sure in that moment you're not easily offendable.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You need to be padded up and cushioned so much that even though I threw this thing with no, you know, covering on it, you're not going to be hit because you're covered.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean?

[Renee]

That makes so much sense.

[Courtney]

And so I Think there's. There's times where you need to do the cushioning. Like if. If you're gonna throw a dart, do as much as you can to pad up that sharp bit. Right. To make sure that when it hits, it's not going to completely pierce and break this thing. But sometimes you're gonna have to throw a dart naked. It's just gonna be straight. Like, the edge is out. The edge is out. And it's sharp today. Right. Because we're moving quickly, and I don't have time to pad this out. So what? I need the person that's going to be the target of this to be padded up themselves. Do you know what I mean? To make sure that this doesn't pierce and break this thing. That's what I'm trying to say. So I think it's also not being easily offended to the point where things that are said very quickly, maybe not. It's not done in maliciousness. It's just the way business goes. We need to make a fast decision. Do this, do that. Let's do this, let's. And sometimes it can feel like, oh, that came out a bit, you know. Yeah. This is the things that we think sometimes at work. Work, right. You're having a team meeting. Someone says, oh, can you do this? And it's like, I need you to add a please. I need you to add a thank you. This thing upright. But it's like, with the speed we're moving, everyone's going to catch astray. And it's never with this idea of, you know, doing it intentionally and we can work it out afterwards. But in that moment, I need you to be cushioned as well.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But in the times where we're not flying and we're not, you know, moving at a million miles per hour, I also need to learn to paddle up what I'm saying so that it isn't actually hurtful as well. And so I think it's learning to temper your words, but also learning to build some grit and build some. Build some, like, cushioning around you and structure around you. That means that you're not easily hit by everything.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because if. If you are highly, highly, highly sensitive and fragile. This thing is not for you.

[Renee]

Business, I was about to say this business thing is.

[Courtney]

I can't even lie to you. Entrepreneurship is not for you. So you've got to learn to really build up that fortitude. That is. Okay. I can withstand a couple hits now. I'm not going to become superwoman and invincible. I can still get hurt. And I would like to think it wouldn't be my friend that administers that final blow. However, I need to get with the program and realize that not everything is going to be said to my liking.

[Renee]

All the time, 100%. You have to give people the benefit of the doubt. It's actually okay. It's not okay, but it's also okay in the context. And yes, you have to accept that not everybody is going to be perfect in the moment. And if it's not a pattern of behavior, then it's not necessarily something that needs to be called out. But if you do notice a pattern and it is, you know, grieving your heart in some way, then you address it, preferably outside of the context as well. Because I think even in those very heated moments and heated environments, it's so easy to go tit for tat.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And when you've taken offense to that initial dart, now you're kind of like, if you're not padded up, you'll be in defense mode and you're ready to throw something back. And the. That you're throwing something back at, they're probably thinking, well, where did that come from? Like, the intention was never to hurt you. I may have hurt you. So I appreciate I did that and I apologize, but I didn't intend to hurt you.

[Courtney]

And you did.

[Renee]

And now you did. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, and now you.

[Courtney]

Now it's a big issue now.

[Renee]

Now we fighting and it's giving Avengers assemble. And I don't know how we got here. So sometimes it is about giving people the benefit of the doubt. And I think sometimes this is where, like, doing the work and self awareness can sometimes actually not work in our favor. In that we think, oh, we're doing the work by calling out every single thing that offends us that makes us upset. I'm so hyper aware of, you know, the way you communicated. That was just.

[Courtney]

I really.

[Renee]

It didn't. It didn't land well with me.

[Courtney]

That's annoying.

[Renee]

It's irritating. It is so irritating. You can't blow. Listen, I'm not trying to dictate how, you know, you read things and what.

[Courtney]

Take it to your journal and take it to the Lord in prayer. It's not everything.

[Renee]

We can talk so. And therein lies the crux of the issue. Not everything needs to be said, but everything needs to be processed. The question is, does it need to be processed by you or with somebody else? And there's too many of us that think that by processing it with other People that we're doing the right work. There's a sequencing.

[Courtney]

Sometimes.

[Renee]

Sometimes you have to do things. Things privately before you do them publicly with somebody, if at all. Yeah, there's things that you need to take up to God first.

[Courtney]

No, the biggest one, I think that's the. And I think that's actually maturity and wisdom in relationships in general, realizing that not everything has to be a conversation. Right. Not everything has to be a confrontation either. Some things is, I'ma take it myself and I'ma let it go. I will let this go because I'm assuming the best now. I think the big caveat is, is this a pattern of behavior? Because if it's repeat, repeat, repeat. Okay, let's actually talk about this. I've noticed a pat. However, if this was like a one time, I don't like how you did that, but I know you don't do things like this often. Can I self regulate? And self regulation is so important. Self regulation means that we don't always have to stop because there's an issue. No, biggest matter. Imagine walking with somebody. Yeah, we've got to get from A to B. It's going to take us 10 minutes. But every 35 seconds you want to stop and address something we can't address. Address. Just walk around it. Do you get what I mean? Like, just walk around it. Just figure out a way to walk around it. And this isn't about, you know, abuse. It isn't about malpractice, it isn't about anything like that. But it's just the small little things that's like, I don't like that, but I will write about it, I'll process it myself, and then we will keep moving. Those things actually help the journey to be easier. Right. Because every confrontation is a moment of friction. Yeah. The more there is friction, the more things wear down. Right. So you have to pick your moments of friction very wisely. Have we recovered from our last point of friction? How well are we going to be able to recover after this? Do we even have. Is this even the right context to bring up this issue? Because sometimes the issue with communication is, and this is within relationship, marriages, family, work. We're not having the right conversation at the right time. We're having the right conversation, but at the wrong time. Right? Yes. We need to address this thing that happened. But right now, at this critical juncture of us making this decision or in this season where we're both really tense because we're working on something and the deadline is now, or, you know, the money is not there or we're both feeling the pressure. This is not the right time to have this conversation. Take it it, write it down, note it down, park it, and then let's pick this up when we're both in a better place to actually have a constructive way of dealing with it. Because a lot of us think that us confronting is actually just us venting. We're not looking for a constructive end to this thing.

[Renee]

That's so true.

[Courtney]

If we were looking for a constructive end to this thing would also make sure we were having this conversation at a time where it was constructive and a time where it's conducive to actually come up with a solution that's good. But most times a lot of us want to to say what we have to say because we feel like it will alleviate us. And it may. You might actually get the feeling of freedom that you actually want. But what? Look at this, bucko. You've now put this thing on the other person and they're like, bucko is crazy. Open your eyes up, bucko. You've now put this in the air. You've put this in my hands and I don't even know what to do with this bomb.

[Renee]

What are we actually going to do?

[Courtney]

So whilst you've gotten the sigh of relief and you've been waiting to excel and you have have. My car is burning in the background.

[Renee]

You know what it's like, you know when you take a pee. Wait, what could be.

[Courtney]

I am.

[Renee]

It's like not even a few. It's like doing a fart.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And you've decided to do it in a very dense.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah. And that was all of us that have to deal with the stench of this aroma when you could have walked.

[Renee]

Outside and dealt with it outside by yourself.

[Courtney]

You wanted your relief. And now it's in our mouths.

[Renee]

Oh, my God. Sorry. So tangential.

[Courtney]

Now it's in our mouths. No, Literally the worst feeling it.

[Renee]

Oh, my gosh.

[Courtney]

So, guys, please, let's all just be guided. And this is why I think, like you said, a lot of this is maturity, right? This is not for the immature. This is not for the weak. This is for people who are literally standing on business. Like, I know I want to maintain this friendship. I know I want to have a successful business or, you know, I want to maintain this family relationship, whatever.

[Renee]

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[Courtney]

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[Renee]

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[Courtney]

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[Renee]

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[Courtney]

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[Renee]

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[Courtney]

R.Com acast code acast I know in order to do that there's a lot of things I'm going to have to just swallow. Yeah, I'm just gonna have to hold it back. I can't let the clip just everywhere. Yeah, I can't. I actually can't, can't. And it's the same. I've even met people who do business with their spouse and they say the same thing. In order for this not to be a headache when I get home, I just need to twist my legs. You just twist it.

[Renee]

Just. And you know what's very interesting is the fact that many of us think that confrontation is the only response that we have to. Yeah, that's also an issue. Right. It doesn't always have to be confrontation. Sometimes it can be affirmation.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I think I would genuinely challenge anybody that thinks, oh, I need to event, I need to confront. Etc. Sometimes part of the processing is understanding what is the most conducive response that I can give that addresses the situation, but also shows that I want to continue this relationship. And sometimes the most effective tool to disarm an argument before it starts is affirmation and affection. Showing that person love. Because oftentimes when people are sharp with you, it's not because they intend to hurt you, but often because they're hurting themselves. And I have found even in like conflict or conversations and whatnot, sending a quick do you know what? I actually really love you. Like I know you're going through something and acknowledging that hey, the circumstances are not necessarily the best. So that may have contributed or can explain as to why you've been sharp with me in this moment. You doing that work yourself oftentimes will trigger something in the other person where they become even apologetic in that moment. They become convicted because they realize, ah, I've just done something that is potentially harmful despite not necessarily having the intention to do so. But the fact that you have still chosen to show me love in that moment is one of the most effective ways that you can continue to build intimacy, trust and love in that relationship. Now, again, heavy caveat, we're not talking about abuse here, we are not talking about manipulation. We are talking about those one off moments when people are having bad days or those one off moments where people are going through stuff and could benefit from a benefit of the doubt or really could benefit from some form of affirmation and affection because they're hurting in that moment. So really consider, is confrontation the best response that I can give to this conflict right now? How I'm feeling right now? Are there other more beneficial ways that I can process and share how I'm feeling or how this has been received by me in a way that will help build this relationship rather than tearing it down?

[Courtney]

So good. So, so good. And I, I think another way to kind of deal with that conflict as well is bringing a third party. Yeah. And I think this is what's so powerful about business relationships. If there's nothing stopping you from having a board, there's nothing stopping you from having mentors, advisors, people who are around you, who can just come in as a different voice, who you both respect, who you both love, who also have, has the interest of the business at heart, who can actually speak to maybe a conflict or a disagreement or a difference in opinion. And both of you would be happy to yield to that, whether it be even an external consultant. Okay. If we are not seeing eye to eye on what this thing should be, what the next step should be, how we should approach this deal or whatever, let's bring in someone who is an expert in this area to just give us an objective, neutral response and we both decide we're going to take it, because we can't just follow what one person is saying without the other person getting in their feelings or feeling some way somehow. And so I think leaning on other people is really helpful. Also having accountability structures in place. And it's funny because as we say these things, these things cross over so well into romantic relationships as well, or into friendship. Like if you are doing something wrong. I need to have somebody who I know you respect and I respect, who can see objectively who is mature, who is wise, who has some idea of what we're trying to do and where we're trying to go, who can actually g check you if you're moving mad, who can say, okay, according to business practices, what you did was actually wrong and know how to enforce some kind of, not necessarily consequence, but some kind of structure of accountability. And I wouldn't say monitoring, but let me just make sure that this doesn't happen again. So let's set up a quarterly meeting where I'm looking at the account, so I'm looking at the minutes in, in your meeting, so I'm looking at how you guys are operating and seeing whether this is healthy for the both of you. Because sometimes it is one person to. It takes one person losing their mind to ruin a whole business and ruin a whole relationship because they want to act up and act different. Different. And so having someone who's outside of the both of you who can be like, you know what? I know you guys are friends and sometimes friends can't even see your blind spot. Let me actually help you guys to see what you're doing is crazy. Or actually you're doing this really well. Keep this up. So I would say bring it. Don't be afraid to bring in a third party. The thing is that third party literally needs to be objective. They need to be able to see things objectively. And sometimes that means that you're going to have brought the third party in and they're not going to agree with you. Are you ready to take that?

[Renee]

Too awkward. Not you bringing in reinforcements only to.

[Courtney]

Find out you're in the room, they're here for you. But hey, we all got to the solution, right?

[Renee]

It's like calling the bailiffs on your neighbor and they said, actually we're here to repossess something from your house.

[Courtney]

It happens like that. And that's just. You know what I think it comes down to? What are, are our top tier values here? What are we actually chasing here?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

At the end of the day, whilst it may hurt me, I know that it's good for the relationship and I know it's good for the business. Right. I know that as much as this is a challenge, it is an opportunity to actually grow. I know that at the end of the day, we want to see this business thrive and we want to see this friendship be maintained. And if that means I need to twist my lips or I need to go and do some character development or I need to be uncomfortable and have this conversation with you, I'm gonna pass through all of the discomfort in whatever form it takes to make sure that those two objectives are actually achieved. Because I value them above all else.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, and so I guess to kind of bring this part of the conversation to an end, before we go into the dilemma, what would you say to somebody who maybe has gone into business with a friend and it's not going so well? And also I want to add to that, what is one thing you would say to somebody who is in a relationship with a. In business with someone they have a relationship with and wants it to continue going well? What's one thing they should do as well?

[Renee]

Okay, I'll take the negative Nancy first because you know, that's unfortunately the thing that people like hearing about. It's all going to ish. We need to figure out what we're gonna do here. I think that is enough cause for pause if you can, because I think sometimes doing your day to day with the person will exacerbate the feelings, the tensions, the issues, taking some time off, whether it be like maybe a day or two if you're doing business, especially if you're doing business with the person taking a day out where or a couple of hours, even in their calendar. So just say, wait a second, we need to do some work here, here, and we need to identify what exactly the issues are that we are facing. Before you do confront or have the conversation with your business partner, I would urge you to do some self reflection to be able to articulate yourself. Well, I think sometimes we can enter into a lot of these conversations just off the cuff, straight in, I'm ready, I'm here for a boxing match. When really that's not necessarily the equipment that you should be bringing to this match. In fact, it's not a boxing match at all. It's an open conversation. So doing some kind of self reflection before you go into the conversation with your second party and articulate yourself well, having had an opportunity to identify where they have been going wrong, but also where you potentially have been going wrong, just so that there isn't, you know, a log in your eye that you haven't been able to take out before the conversation happens, but taking some time out of the actual business, out of the day to day, having a conversation, sharing what's on your mind and also asking them, hey, what's. What do you think has been going well in our relationship? But also what are some of the challenges that you have faced. And oftentimes, more often than not, they also have things to bring to the table too. And it's a great open forum for you guys to hash out and see. Okay, cool. Are these cosmetic concerns, which can be brushed over, things that can be worked on, on, or are they deeper structural concerns that may require either a bit of fixing or potentially a separation? Now, I personally think that usually separation is like the last resort. I would definitely encourage, especially if you've started a business with somebody that you love and really care for, it's worth at least fighting for. And I don't think that you should give up without a fight, at least. And it is fighting the issues and not the person. So really focusing on these are the issues that we are facing. Are these issues repairable? Can we repair our relationship? And I think also what might be helpful, especially if you're friends with the person, try to separate out your business concerns with your friendship concerns. Obviously, they can leak into each other, but I think it's very important to provide feedback on these relationships a little bit more separately, just so that we can see, okay, is the concern around our business and how our business is doing and our business relationship, or is it that I feel like our friendship is falling into tatters because it might be that your business is flourishing, but your friendship is falling into tatters, or vice versa. Friendship is doing really, really well. Business is falling into tatters. So I think it's very important to be quite specific in some of the areas that the both of you are finding issues, challenges, especially in the overlap of these relationships and then figuring out, are these things repairable? Is this the season for us to really focus on our business since our friendship is thriving? Is this the, you know, season for us to focus on our friendship since our, you know, business is thriving, or, you know, vice versa, and really being quite specific on. On those kind of things and then also thinking about what does that action plan look like? I think sometimes it's really easy for us to lay out, oh, these are all of my issues. But we don't necessarily have an action plan. And. And I'm very like spreadshee, spreadsheety type person. I don't know. I can't remember what it is on the Myers Briggs, the person, the personality trait or whatever, but actually listing down. Okay, cool. In the next six to 12 months, this is what we want to achieve within our relationships. Not just business, but also friendship. These are the things that we want to achieve. This is how we're going to get there and having some smaller steps around. Okay, cool. I've heard that you said that I want to spend more quality time with you. I've heard that you said that I need to communicate a little bit more effectively. I've heard that you've given me the feedback around my competency in this particular skill. These are the steps that I'm willing to be held accountable to by you or by our third party or whatever it is to make some kind of difference in the next six to 12 months. So being as action oriented, once you've had the space and time to air out some of those issues and challenges as much as possible. And if those things don't work, work, that's when you have to have the tough conversation as to can we continue this? And it doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be a complete break. That's only in the very extreme, you know, circumstances. It might be that, okay, this business that we tried together, it didn't work. Yeah, but we can continue our friendship or I've not really seen the reverse workout as well, where you are doing business with somebody that you are formerly a friend with.

[Courtney]

And yeah, we're not friends anymore.

[Renee]

Hey, ho, however you want to cut.

[Courtney]

It, me personally could work. If you're both not working in the business, like working together day to day.

[Renee]

That's a good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you guys are not working together in the day to day, then maybe it may be worth saying, okay, cool, we don't have to be besties, but we can still work on this business together in ways that there's a little bit of, you know, separation or whatnot. So I think finding some kind of nice middle ground is often better than a complete co founder friendship breakup. But in the extreme cases, I think it's important to know how you guys want to end. Well, keep it as respectful as possible. If you guys do have some kind of legal agreement, it may be worth, you know, revisiting thinking about all of that kind of good stuff. Well, bad stuff, because the official stuff, let's call it official stuff. Yeah, it would be worth going back and reading over the official things, thinking about ways that you can close up and, you know, stitch. Stitch things up neatly. I think understanding that these things will also take time. I think there's the temptation to just, oh, I want to get away from everything. But unfortunately, that means that you won't have as clean a break as. As possible if you try to run away from everything rather than close everything up. So that's the advice That I would give to folks that are in business and their friends. And it's not necessarily going well to the folks where, you know, it's going good. You're working together. Great work. Love it for you guys. No, honestly, because you're often hit with negativity more than you are positivity. Especially when you say, oh, I'm working with my friend. Oh my goodness. How, How? So the first thing that I would say is try to make sure that your spheres of influences are mostly positive. Have people around you that are actually pouring into you and are actually, you know, positive influences into the relationship that you have with the person.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Much like in a marriage, when you're married to someone you want to be hanging around people that will tell you, oh, I hope your marriage is going well. I hope that you guys are going to be married for the foreseeable future. You don't want to be hanging around people that would be like, oh, how are you coping? No divorce.

[Courtney]

Just reminding you that it's a tough ride.

[Renee]

Oh, it's really tough. Yeah. I remember when I got to year like six or seven, you know, me and my hubby and my babes. Yeah. We broke up.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I think you're headed the same way. God forbid, you know, some rubbish. We are generational.

[Courtney]

Yeah. People who are projecting.

[Renee]

Yeah. Avoid people that are projected and try to be diligent in discerning people that are projecting their broken ideals and their relationships on you.

[Courtney]

So good.

[Renee]

I think it's really, really important to, yeah. Very much be discerning of the airways that you have around around you. Tune into the right radio sources is very, very important. I think continuing to do what you're already doing that is working well.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I think it's so tempted, tempting to reinvent the wheel. Like, oh, yeah, let's keep building, let's keep doing this. But if you have something that works, continue to ride it out until it doesn't. Or at least there's any kind of signs or changes that necessitate some kind of change in direction. But if your relationship with your co founder, your friend is going well, continue to ride out on those strengths and be very. And understand what those strengths are as well. So, okay, cool. Things are going good. What is it about our relationship that's actually working well that we should continue to do and inscribe that in stone? Have that as part of your values? Keep doing what you're doing. Double down on that. I think still being proactive and you know, having regular check ins with your co founder. Slash bestie. They don't have to be the same type of check ins as well. So for example, me and Courtney will have check ins around like business stuff, but then we also have check ins around like friend stuff. Like, yo, oh, hey girl. Hey sis. How's things going between us as friends? Like put the business to one side, like personal life. Exactly, personal life. Because I think that's one thing that I really struggled with especially in the beginning of our journey. It's like staying abreast of everything and still having that level of like intimacy as friends. But then also being business partners. You can think that you have seen someone and you can think that you have intimacy, but you actually don't know what the hell is going on with their life like right now. So I think actually scheduling in time and space to be able to do those different things and have those different functions in your relationship is really, really important. I think also the last thing I'll say because I've nutted on.

[Courtney]

No, it's good.

[Renee]

Celebrate yourselves. Like actually have time to celebrate important milestones. They don't have to be the big milestones, especially in business. It's like, oh, we're just going to celebrate when we get to six figures. If you make £100, baby, get yourself a cake if you do. Listen, one thing about me and Courtney. Yeah, we were celebrating everything. Celebrate the milestones because who else is going to celebrate but you guys? And it brings you closer together. Like you set out, you had a vision, you crushed these goals. Let's celebrate ourselves and the fact that you actually have someone to celebrate with. You know, sometimes we see these people, they'll be doing up solo founders, like, oh, I'm celebrating myself and stuff. That's cute. But you actually have a friend and a business partner that's been there with you in the trenches like it is.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I can't lie, it is a really nice experience. Yeah, it's true. That's why I like that. No, those are really excellent tips. I would also say for the person who maybe it's not going so well. I do think a lot of us struggle with this idea, like the whole sunk cost fallacy or just having to put an end to something. I think it's okay to also let the business go. You know, I think sometimes we talk about, oh, the friendship has to break up, happen, but sometimes you have to get rid of the business, you know, especially. And this is, I'm not saying get rid of the business because the friendship is suffering. Obviously there's a lot of nuance in this. However, if the business itself is not working and the business not working is putting so much of a strain on the relationship, End the business. Like, realize that you're holding on to a sinking ship and let it go, right? Like, end the business. Because it could be that you need to stop the business so that you can think more about the operations of the business. Because some business. Businesses, depending on what you're doing, can be really stressful. Like, really, really stressful to start. Maybe there's a lot of, like, paperwork involved. There's a lot of capital that you have to raise. It could be really, really intense. It's okay to let something go because you haven't figured out how to do it properly. Yeah, right. And so allow this thing to go work on the relationship and then work on either sharpening each other's skills, each of you sharpening the skill set that you bring to the table, or really understanding how can we do this business better? It's okay to put an end to a business. It really is. Because I think sometimes we just hold on to businesses too much. It's like, oh, I'd rather get rid of the friend than get rid of the business. Sometimes the friend is more valuable than this little 10 pounds you're holding on to. Honest to God. It may be a great idea, but just because it's a great idea doesn't mean that you know how to execute it. And it's the execution that can bring the pain and the grief. So allow yourself to learn how do we execute this properly? So good before we pick this thing back up again 100%.

[Renee]

Holding on to that 10 pounds is crazy.

[Courtney]

You're holding on to this CEO in your bio. You're losing your best friend. And this business isn't even profitable. So really and truly, it's a loose lose CEO of Loser, Inc. Just losing everything left, right, and center. So it's actually okay to let go of a business, especially. I see this a lot in family, right? Like so many people fighting over something. This thing doesn't even make money. It's not even worth fighting over.

[Renee]

How you go owner sinking shit.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? Like, relax. Do you get. And. And often it's because ego and pride is involved. I just don't want to be the one to let it go. I don't want to d. I don't want them to see that we failed. You're failing, though, whether they see it or not. Failure as the truth happens, regardless of whether it has an audience.

[Renee]

Oh, Courtney.

[Courtney]

Don't kill me.

[Renee]

Them is irrelevant.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Renee]

Your feet are literally in debt.

[Courtney]

In debt, holding on to something that don't even work.

[Renee]

They're going to see that we're going bankrupt and so end the bankruptcy, close the business.

[Courtney]

You're only going through it because you allowed yourself to go through it. Do you know what I mean?

[Renee]

Just end it. Oh, Courtney, what a word.

[Courtney]

Just end it.

[Renee]

How many of us are going through.

[Courtney]

Things because we're going through it?

[Renee]

We've decided to go through it.

[Courtney]

Turn around, go back, change your ways. Can't be going through something if you decide, I'm not walking in this anymore. So, yeah, I think it's, it's. Don't be afraid to let go of the business if it's the business that's causing all this pain and suffering because the business isn't working. Do you get what I mean? But if the business is working, you better fight. Yeah, better fight for it. Out immaturity, of course, for the people who are doing it and doing it well. I was also going to say celebrate yourself. But I think the big, A bigger, a bigger thing as well is don't take that for granted. I think a lot of us, like you said, we hear the people obviously telling us co founder relationships don't work. Working with your friend doesn't work and stuff like that. Don't take for granted that even if this thing has come easy for you, it could just be because you haven't acknowledged the mechanisms that are making it work. But that doesn't mean there aren't mechanisms. Mechanisms there making it work. And so don't think that it's always going to be this hunky dory. Not to be a negative Nancy, but like, identify what those mechanisms are and work on them. Continue to make sure that they stay turning. Because the easy thing is, is getting complacent. Yeah, the same thing in any relationship. You get complacent. Oh, we always like each other. Oh, our personalities always click. And so you just stop intentionally cultivating your relationship and your friendship, forgetting that actually there were wheels that were turning that you just didn't know about. But if they stop turning, this whole, the wheel's going to fall off, everything is going to end. So maybe your business is doing really well and your co founder relationship is going really well because you and your friend are in the best place and you don't know how you're in the best place, but you just are. And then suddenly three years down the line happens and you're no longer pouring into your friendship like you used to because you didn't know how you were pouring into your relationship, Especially when your friendship is based on convenience as well. Well, maybe now the circumstances around your friendship have changed and now you don't. You haven't identified those mechanisms of quality time or words of affirmation or whatever love is being poured into your relationship. And now you're thinking, how come this friendship and the business ain't working as well anymore? Right. So actually identify the mechanisms and don't take for granted that something is working in the background.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

That is causing this to succeed. So identify it and keep those wheels turning. Right. Right. Just do not take it for granted. Do not take your friend for granted. Do not take the fact that your business is succeeding for granted. So be grateful. Celebrate everything. Actually take. I wouldn't say take things to heart, but don't let things. Don't let things fester.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Like, actually take things seriously. Like, for example, if Renee comes to me, like, I didn't like how you did that, I'm not just going to be like, oh, Renee's just. You'd be Renee. No, I need to take that seriously because this is somebody who actually matters to me.

[Renee]

Lol.

[Courtney]

This is somebody who actually matters to me. So it's not just something of a brush it off and get over it. It's actually, oh, no, no, let's take this. Because I don't take for granted that this thing is working and I don't want it to not work. So I take everything with gravitas to some degree. So, yeah, I would just say, just don't get complacent, man. Don't get complacent. Don't get prideful. Don't get egotistical. Identify what's working about it and guard that thing fiercely. Yeah, fiercely. Especially if it's like you identify the certain thing, the things that ruin relationships. Like, I could get so cushy with Renee and be like, oh, yeah, Renee's never going to leave my side. She's my profile. Does she lives with me? We're in each other's lives, deadlocked, Period.

[Renee]

Period.

[Courtney]

Do you know what I mean? And then one satanistic hissing snake is like, oh, do you know Renee did this? This? And because I'm now so complacent about our relationship and the fact that we're locked in, I'm like, how can I do that? Who does renege think she isn't? And now suddenly I'm now getting a bit loose with how I respect her or How I love her. And she hears wind of that. There's nothing. No matter how deep we are in this relationship, no matter how much money is on the line, there's nothing stopping my best friend being like, I don't want to be your friend anymore. So let's not take for granted the fact that everybody has a limit. Even if you're even in a covenant. Everybody has a limit.

[Renee]

Everyone has a limit.

[Courtney]

No matter how deep this relationship is, everybody has a limit. I don't care how mature you are. I don't care how long you've been in this thing, how much experience. We are humans. We have boundaries and limitations. Do not take anybody for granted just because it's been going well for so long. So I can end everything. Has an update. Sorry, beloved.

[Renee]

Listen. Oh, Cody. Point, evidence, explanation, link back to the question. As for you, you hissing witches. No, because I've expressed this on the podcast before. I've expressed this. Courtney is not up.

[Courtney]

And people try. No, it's not even me being up for sale. People try. Like people try to instigate something or blow up something, and sometimes they don't even know they're doing it.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And it's for you to catch. This is going to put a seed of distrust.

[Renee]

Yes.

[Courtney]

Or envy or something in my heart that does not need to be here because it will be detrimental to the business and my friendship. And I know you're not trying to do it intentionally, but the way this conversation is going is not healthy for me and what I'm trying to build. So I have to remove myself from this place. You have to be aware of that. Because not everybody knows that Satan is using them. I'm just not.

[Renee]

Everyone knows one thing about the enemy is the enemy is very beautiful, very luscious, gorgeous. No, no, no. Cuz people think. I know. We just had Halloween. Which we don't celebrate.

[Courtney]

No, we don't.

[Renee]

Don't come to our door knocking for candy.

[Courtney]

Glad they didn't come yesterday.

[Renee]

I was waiting. I was about to preach a ser. About to pre. If you celebrate, that's your business. According to our faith, we don't celebrate.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Anywho, like, I've even lost my chain. I was just thinking. Do you know what I was thinking about? So tangential. I will send you the meme for it. Because I actually saved it. Somebody was trying to like, reappropriate Halloween. So they posted. They hung a. Like a hanging of a biblically accurate angel outside of their door. I don't know if you've seen Biblically, very scary. I really understood when they said, do not be afraid, because I've been afraid. And also it made me question, have people really seen angels? Because if you've seen a biblically accurate angel, I don't know what kind of angels appeared to you. You. But if you've seen biblically accurate angels, you wouldn't be out here saying, and there's angels in the room. I would be at the back of the hall.

[Courtney]

Okay. So to be fair, though, the Bible does how. Be careful how you treat everybody because some of you interact with angels and you don't know. So I do think there's that element of maybe angels look like common men, but biblically described angels, but then again, there are different kind of spiritual beings.

[Renee]

This is also true.

[Courtney]

There are different kind of spiritual beings. There's the seraphim, the cherubim, there's all these different things. Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. They're all described slightly differently. So there can be some angels that look like the pretty ones, but there are also demons that look like just mere men.

[Renee]

To be honest, I think the demons look more like us.

[Courtney]

Oh, absolutely.

[Renee]

More often than the children of Satan. There you go. Oh.

[Courtney]

Oh, absolutely. They even said Lucifer has a pretty face.

[Renee]

He does.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Renee]

Therein lies the point.

[Courtney]

Lucifer has a pretty face.

[Renee]

Things that come encased in gold may on the inside be rotting. Absolutely. So please guard your eyes, guard your ears, because the way that people will be saying things and showing you things, and all it takes is a seed.

[Courtney]

And that's the essence of it. All it takes is a. And a seed is a mere thought. It's a throwaway sentence. It's somebody just saying one thing and you being in the wrong place, your heart being in the wrong state. Suddenly your co founder, your destiny helper is your biggest op. You need to be careful.

[Renee]

All of a sudden, all of a sudden you think that they're a witch.

[Courtney]

Yeah, Literally. Literally. But that's what happens. Even look at sibling relationships.

[Renee]

Right?

[Courtney]

It just takes one person to say one thing wrong. Suddenly this person who you share blood with is now your worst enemy.

[Renee]

Crazy.

[Courtney]

All because of a misunderstanding or something that landed in the wrong heart. That's. We need to just be careful of. Maybe we should need to do some kind of co founder retreat or something. Do you know where? Or friendship retreat where people just come with their bestie, come with their co founder, whatever it may be, and we just talk about these issues because it's very, very tough.

[Renee]

It is really tough.

[Courtney]

It's very tough. And I think it's different, it's different to marriage because like you do life with this person. There's an intimacy there. I think with friendship there is still that element of we are just two individuals who are trying to understand ourselves but also make something work together. Yeah, it's very tough. It's very vulnerable. It's very hard.

[Renee]

It is very, very vulnerable. This was actually something I was going to tell you that off camera. I was like, we should do something like love is blind. But for friends.

[Courtney]

I completely agree with.

[Renee]

That is so cool.

[Courtney]

Completely agree.

[Renee]

And I think we'd be some kind.

[Courtney]

Of like couples therapy. But for friends.

[Renee]

But for friends.

[Courtney]

Because it's tough out here and sometimes you just want to be honest, like, but you, you don't have wise counsel around you to be able to help you be honest in a safe environment. And in a way that's also going to give you a solution anyway. We're just spitting ideas. We hope that if you are a co founder or you're doing, you know, business with a friend or a family member, just someone you actually care about, even a partner, that it actually goes well, that you guys can have the really tough conversations when you need to and also that you would maintain that true love and genuine care for one another. I think care is the word, like genuinely caring for the business, but caring for each other. Caring for each other's mental, emotional, physical, spiritual well being as well in a way that allows you both to flourish in the business and therefore the business to flourish. Hopefully this conversation has been helpful. Helpful too.

[Renee]

Beautiful.

[Courtney]

But yeah. Sisters, we have a dilemma. We want to answer before we end this episode. But before we get into that, let us know what your thoughts are on this topic and on this conversation. We'll probably post something on the Instagram page at to my sisterhood, which you can chime in on stories or in the comment section. So go and follow us over there into the Ding, ding, ding. Dylan, let's go.

[Renee]

Alrighty. You ain't gonna like this one.

[Courtney]

No.

[Renee]

You ain't liking a few of them recently. And you know what?

[Courtney]

I just don't like dilemmas in general.

[Renee]

I just don't like that the sisters.

[Courtney]

Are suffering as well.

[Renee]

It's not nice. Anywho. Hi sisters. I'm 23 from South Africa.

[Courtney]

Hey, girl.

[Renee]

My ex and I started dating in March 2024 and it felt real. He was affectionate, calling out odd hours just to say he missed me. I'd never felt safer. And when he said I love you First. First, I was all in. Wow. In April, I found out I was eight weeks pregnant.

[Courtney]

Wait. Yikes. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Renee]

Balancing my final year of university, I couldn't see bringing a child into the world, so I decided on an abortion, and he supported me through it.

[Courtney]

Okay.

[Renee]

Then he dropped a bombshell. He'd been unmarried at First Sight, which aired in June, Though he hadn't told me until after we'd been dating ever since, he seemed distant, and I suspected he was reconnecting with his ex from the show. I confronted him, but he dismissed it as just PR. On August 3rd, my fears were confirmed when she posted an Instagram live from his place. I was heartbroken. Later on the reunion episode.

[Courtney]

Hey, hey, hey, sister.

[Renee]

We gotta go check out that reunion from September. Anyway, she posted. Yeah, I. Yeah. Later on the reunion episode in September, he publicly declared he was back with her. He hasn't reached out or apologized. It's as if I never mattered to him. Now I'm left feeling betrayed and just want to move on. Should I ask for closure or let it go?

[Courtney]

Girl, if you don't let that thing go. What do you mean? Ask for what? He gave you the closure of the show. He gave you the closure on the show.

[Renee]

Do you know, I wasn't expecting it to go that way whatsoever.

[Courtney]

What?

[Renee]

That is crazy.

[Courtney]

First of all, this is the first time we've been caught up as celebrity drama.

[Renee]

Yeah. When I saw Married at first, I.

[Courtney]

Said, this is basically what, maybe E list news. A, B, C, D, maybe. Fantastic. We're climbing up there and they were getting somewhere. Okay.

[Renee]

Looking for that man. I ain't gonna lie to you.

[Courtney]

Is there a Married at First Sight? South Africa?

[Renee]

I have no idea.

[Courtney]

Anyway, Shaft. Many things. Many things. Okay, let's calm down. First of all, really sorry you went through this. It was very sad that somebody could gain your trust and make you feel like, you know, you're in love with them as well. Well. And then do this to you. That's crazy. Should be a crime. Second of all, I think you guys got into something serious too quickly. I think I get it. Somebody can make you feel like you fall in love with them in a matter of weeks. However, it sounds like it went too far, too fast for you to really know what was going on in his life entirely and really confirm maybe some of the things he told you about himself and his situation in. In life in general. Really sorry to hear about the pregnancy kind of coming to an end as well. I understand that there are sometimes very complex things that go into making these decisions as well. But I would say, considering you guys, he has. You have both gone through so much. There is no closure that should be searched for. I don't know if it's. You want a relationship with a man who can deceive you and then embarrass you on television.

[Renee]

That's crazy.

[Courtney]

But if that's what you want. Want, baby, you worth so much more than that. Okay, secondly, I don't know if the closure is for some kind of explanation, because the explanation is he's rekindled his love with this babe and they are publicly living out this story. So what are you going to do in this?

[Renee]

He's got a pen. For those short, quick relationships to go from March 2024 last year to not just any show, but married at first.

[Courtney]

And that's the thing. It's like, babe, this guy, I don't even think he even knows what he's doing. I think he just wants a bag of women. I don't know if fame has gotten to his head or what, but, sister girl, stay out of this. It sounds like you're looking for love. It sounds like you're looking for someone who's going to put you first. First. It sounds like you're looking for some kind of commitment and security. Everything this man has done has shown you he's not capable of giving that to you now forever. And so back off.

[Renee]

Wrap it up.

[Courtney]

Back off. Wrap it up. You're already busy with your own life, as you said. Continue to be busy with your own life and find somebody who will actually love you well, and be honest about it. But this sounds like there's a whole bunch of shame that could. He could bring to your life. We don't want that for you. Leave that man, man alone. Oh, leave that man alone. Oh, yeah, sorry. There's nothing good that can come out of this situation.

[Renee]

That was.

[Courtney]

I'm just gonna say that.

[Renee]

Uncle. If you're watching, Mr. Man, if you're watching, stop deceiving women. In fact, it's just cease and desist and do that. But that's really scary.

[Courtney]

Oh, disgusting.

[Renee]

On television.

[Courtney]

On the tv.

[Renee]

And he said, just PR that on the tv.

[Courtney]

But you know what? I do feel like men who actually really don't care care about you. Those are the men that will make you fall in love with them the quickest.

[Renee]

Yeah. Crikey. But no, Courtney, I don't even have anything to add to what you said. I think, babe, leave that one alone immediately. Immediately.

[Courtney]

That man.

[Renee]

When somebody has shown you and the thing is, he has shown you multiple times who he is. They have them multiple times over such a short and sustained period of time where he has shown you, I do not have true regard for you. And yes, there may have been some really nice hunky dory times that you had had, but for this to have veered so off course in such a short period of time. Is that somebody that you. Ah. Closure. I don't want anything from a man like that.

[Courtney]

There's nothing a man like that can give you. He's not going to give you a good reason. He's not gonna. Like you said, he hasn't even been in touch. Are you going to be able to.

[Renee]

Reach him if anything?

[Courtney]

Do you think?

[Renee]

I'm more concerned about the babe that's now with him.

[Courtney]

That's her own personal issue, to be very honest. If you can marry a man you've just seen with your abs, until she writes it, I have no words.

[Renee]

Courtney, have you watched the most recent Love is Blind?

[Courtney]

No, girl, I have not. So I was talking about this with Raquel yesterday. I've divested from all of these kind of shows. I just think they're so. They cheapen the idea of more the concept of marriage. And also they distort our perception of men and women in relationship. I just think they're so unrealistic. But when you internalize those narratives so much, you go into the real world, projecting this onto normal human beings, and I think that can be quite harmful. It just depends on where your heart is. That some people are so detached from reality TV shows and that they know it's fake. But some people, the more you absorb it, the more it's like every relationship is like this or this is how all men act or how all women act. And we take those tropes into the world, forgetting that this is scripted.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Very devised scenes and narratives and plots. So, yeah, I'm just not. Not in it anymore. I really just. I'm there for Lauren and Cameron. That's it.

[Renee]

The rest of y'all, it was just giving. Sorry. Spoiler alert. For anybody that has not caught up with Love is Blind. Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. It just reminds me of the uproar that I was telling you about. That guy that has a family that.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

We now found out about.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Just hiding there in the back. Three kids.

[Courtney]

Do you think the producers didn't know that?

[Renee]

Anyway, sis, please, we don't want you out here looking at beautiful. Please leave that man.

[Courtney]

That's it. Leave that man. Leave this situation. You sound like you've got a good thing going on in your own life to keep it up.

[Renee]

Jail time.

[Courtney]

Keep it up.

[Renee]

Closure, sis.

[Courtney]

I'm sorry.

[Renee]

Closure is actually the worst. Whoever came up with the concept of closure being the appropriate response every single day?

[Courtney]

Closure is only possible if the person wants to give it to you. Yeah, if you're working with a crazy person, you're not going to get closure. No, honestly, you both have to be seeking it and the person has to be sane and mature enough to give it. This man is crazy.

[Renee]

Crazy, bro. This man is cuckoo. This guy is for Coco P. That guy is that bucko you were talking about.

[Courtney]

No. Legit S this. I can't give you closure.

[Renee]

What?

[Courtney]

The closure is the reunion you saw on your screen. That is it. No, Biggest man thing. I could. I get it. I grieve it. Cry over it.

[Renee]

Your ex.

[Courtney]

Thank you.

[Renee]

Your ex. Married at first.

[Courtney]

Thank you very much. So then how do you even if, like, do you. First of all, a relationship is not going to come out of this. But if you are in a relationship, how do you, like, present him to people? Be like, oh, that guy you saw on your tv, we were dating at that. You have to erase your whole backstory. Let's just leave it.

[Renee]

He's got to act like he's got a twin.

[Courtney]

Yeah, let's just actually leave it. Yeah. Cry, grieve it. Roll on the floor, scream, throw things.

[Renee]

Well, so you're. You're actually a young spring chicken. Ah, 23 university.

[Courtney]

Get out of here, man.

[Renee]

What are you doing?

[Courtney]

Sister, please.

[Renee]

To all of our younger sisters as well, that because there's been an influx recently of, like, younger sisters sharing with us these relationship woes with, like, no good men. Stop it.

[Courtney]

Yeah, no, walk away.

[Renee]

Rubbish.

[Courtney]

Too young for that. Frontal lobe hasn't even developed.

[Renee]

You don't even know what you were.

[Courtney]

Too good. Yeah. No, and we're not saying this from a condescending point of view. It's more so from a place of men will take you for ed. They will. And sometimes when you're in a place of. I wouldn't even say immaturity, but genuinely being young, you can't see it. You can't see the foolishness for what it is. Your brain hasn't even got those neurop pathways yet just to be able to clock that somebody's taking you for a fall. So allow your brain to click in place and then you'll be able to see things for which. For what it is. So, yeah, don't let a man take advantage of your naivety and your youthfulness and your desire to be loved. Because a lot of men will, no matter how old they are, they will take advantage.

[Renee]

Nah, man, that's really upset me. Sorry.

[Courtney]

We actually are praying that truly that you get the healing you need because I think that's what people are surgically for is healing, not closure. You're looking for that wound to heal. That man can't heal it. He's an idiot.

[Renee]

He's the offender.

[Courtney]

Yes. There you go.

[Renee]

You don't go. You go to the doctors to help stitch up stitches. You don't go to the person that shot you.

[Courtney]

Exactly. Especially when they're prancing around on television.

[Renee]

Just gonna put that the offender is on our screens.

[Courtney]

Yeah. So anyways, sis, all the best. Love you so much.

[Renee]

We love.

[Courtney]

Send love to our sis in the comments. Give her some advice. Nice. Just cuss him if you need to.

[Renee]

Whatever we need to.

[Courtney]

You know.

[Renee]

In fact, if you identify him. If you identify him.

[Courtney]

T T Anywho sisters, we hope that you enjoyed this episode. Thank you for rocking with us for the last hour and a bit. We love you deeply. Live show is happening this weekend so it's actually going to be super fun. London girl. See you real soon. Soon. Link up and as Renee mentioned, we're going to Ghana in March. If you want to come on the girls trip then all the information is in the description and the show notes. Follow us on socials at to my sisterhood. You can follow my bestie at Renee Kapuku looking mighty fine today. And you can follow me at CD Whiting. Sign up to the mailing list onto my sisters.com and sisters, we love you and as always, keep gloves and growing.

[Renee]

You know, as a busy mom, there are a few ways you can build strong muscles. You could get a gym membership which you'll never use, buy all sorts of expensive equipment for your garage that you'll.

[Courtney]

Forget you have, pay for a personal.

[Renee]

Trainer that you'll never have time to.

[Courtney]

Meet with and buy a fitness watch that only makes you sad every time you look at it.

[Renee]

Or you could go for an easy run and try some milk which helps build strong muscles. Visit gonnaneadmilk.com for more info. And please don't make yourself sad.