Faith Isn’t Just Spiritual… It’s Practical: How to Actually Change Your Life

Summary

To My Sisters Podcast: Faith Isn’t Just Spiritual… It’s Practical – How to Actually Change Your Life

Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
Guest: Susan Debras
Date: April 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this candid and heartfelt episode, Courtney and Renée are joined by coach, author, and podcaster Susan Debras to explore the intersection of faith, personal growth, and the realities of womanhood. They challenge the notion of faith as just a spiritual or performative exercise, emphasizing instead its deeply practical, transformative power. Together, the sisters reflect on church hurt, religious extremism, disappointment with God, and the need for supportive, authentic sisterhood within faith communities. Throughout, Susan’s vulnerability and wisdom guide a necessary conversation: faith isn’t only for Sundays—it's meant to empower real change and holistic wellbeing in every area of life.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Redefining Faith as Both Spiritual and Practical

• Faith Beyond the Sunday Experience:
  Courtney opens by reflecting, “Faith isn’t just for the experience and the display. It’s actually transformational and anchored to our wellness.” (00:45)

• Susan’s Mantra:
  Susan shares a phrase she often uses: “If it’s spiritual, it’s practical.” (04:03) She stresses the need to bring faith out of the clouds and anchor it in daily action and personal development.

“Our faith actually is a resource for us to fully show up as who [God] is in the earth, as a creative answer…consecration…is not restricted to the church setting.”
— Susan (05:00)

2. Moving From Stagnation to Transformation

• Susan’s Story of Feeling Stuck:
  Susan details her early trauma—losing both parents before age seven, lacking belonging, and enduring abuse—and how these wounds shadowed her faith. Despite being active in church, she felt like “the rug got pulled from underneath” her life (07:34), and describes years of raising hands, altar calls, and still feeling unchanged.

  “I don’t think freedom is for me. That is not the design of God… I was participating in the activities of church, but I wasn’t necessarily experiencing Him.”
  — Susan (08:33, 14:03)

• Church Hurt as a Turning Point:
  Susan recounts a devastating betrayal by her then-church’s leadership, which led her to question God’s character and her own prophetic gifts. The experience forced a personal journey of rediscovery, therapy, and holistic healing outside traditional church settings.

  “I know God is real, but I just don’t know who he is to me… there are some practical elements to this, such as therapy, personal development, and self-growth.”
  — Susan (13:39)

3. Disappointment, Anger, and Humanity in Faith

• Permission to Feel Disappointment: Renee and Susan discuss how church hurt often leads to disappointment in both God and people, but faith communities rarely allow room for these feelings.

  “Anger always leads to mercy. You have to feel anger; without the feeling of anger, you can never get to mercy.”
  — Susan (19:33, quoting her therapist)

• Jesus as a Model for Emotional Honesty:
  Susan draws on scriptural examples of Christ’s vulnerability (“Jesus wept”), underscoring that it’s possible to both “grieve and believe God” (19:33–20:52).

4. Integrating the Practical with the Spiritual

• Challenging the Faith-vs-Practicality Divide:
  The hosts and Susan probe the tension many women feel between surrendering all to God and taking practical steps for change.

  “Do I choose between being practical—you know, atomic habits—or the Bible? … Why can’t the Holy Spirit be a part of implementing new habits?”
  — Susan (22:25)

• Faith in Everyday Decisions:
  Susan describes inviting God into therapy sessions or dietary changes—“Holy Spirit, give me a new appetite”—and seeing God as co-partner in every struggle (24:54).

  “He puts his soup on our natural, essentially.”
  — Susan (27:12)

• Faith and Intellectualism: Courtney emphasizes that faith can and should coexist with education, career, and intellectual pursuit—“When you actually take your intelligence and you allow it to come into your faith, you start asking God big questions…” (27:45–28:37)

5. Religious Psychosis & Navigating Extremes

• Defining ‘Religious Psychosis’:
  Renee clarifies the cultural (not clinical) use of the term—where religious practices overtake personal identity and become a crutch, preventing practical action or growth.

• Breaking Out of Excessive Religiosity: Susan highlights that much religious extremism is rooted in unhealed wounds and a lack of permission to be human.

  “It is the permission to be a human being and not a human doing.”
  — Susan (32:42)

• Practical & Spiritual Ways to Help:

  • Give others “permission to be human”—ask how their heart is, not just how they are.
  • Create spaces in church for authenticity, not just performance.
  • Lean into “sharpening” conversations that challenge stagnation and religious idolatry.
  • Pray for and support those struggling to move into freedom.

6. Church Hurt, Mean Girls, and Building True Sisterhood

• Marginalization of Authentic Women:
  Courtney raises the issue of women who don’t fit the ‘church girl’ mold facing judgment and unkindness in church.

• Susan’s Experience:
  Shares stories of being criticized for her fashion and her past, but credits a minority who “had the capacity to handle my heart.” She now strives as a pastor to cultivate an inclusive, accepting environment.

  “God honors our differences and he loves the version of us now as much as the version that he is trying to get us to be…”
  — Susan (44:00)

• Advice for Women Hurt by Church Communities:

  • Find and lean into safe spaces within the majority.
  • Remember the minority who truly see and support you.
  • Leaders have a responsibility to model and protect inclusive culture.
  • “Be the change you want to see as well.” (44:00)

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Notable Quotes

• On the False Divide:
  “You can’t talk about the practical without talking about the spiritual and vice versa.”
  — Courtney (22:00)

• On God & Growth:
  “He can’t bless what’s not in your hand.”
  — Susan (26:00)

• On Mean Girls in Church:
  “God loves the version of us now as much as the version He is trying to get us to be.”
  — Susan (44:00)

• Blessing for Listeners:
  “Every aspect of who you are matters to God. There’s no part of you that God does not see, and there’s no part of you that He does not accept... You are made for more.”
  — Susan (45:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Faith as Practical, Not Just Spiritual – [04:03], [05:00], [14:03]
• Susan’s Story: Trauma & Healing – [07:34] – [13:39]
• Church Hurt and Personal Transformation – [13:39] – [14:34]
• Disappointment with God & Emotional Authencity – [15:37], [19:33], [20:52]
• Integrating Therapy, Habits & Practical Wisdom Into Faith – [22:25] – [27:12]
• Intellectualism and Faith – [27:45]
• Defining ‘Religious Psychosis’ & Escaping It – [30:57] – [37:38]
• Dealing with Judgment & Finding True Sisterhood – [38:34] – [45:28]
• Final Blessing: “You are made for more” – [45:47]

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Episode Takeaways

• Faith should transform every part of your life: It’s not about just praying harder or performing church duties. True faith integrates with therapy, habits, career, and personal growth.
• Allow for honesty and humanity: Disappointment, anger, and struggle are valid parts of the faith journey.
• Let faith and practicality co-exist: Spiritual wisdom and practical action make for a holistic, fruitful life.
• Support real sisterhood: Create and seek safe, accepting spaces—be honest, challenge religious stagnation, and uplift one another.
• You are made for more—now, not just in your ‘future church girl’ version.

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Support & Connect

• Guest: @susandebras on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube | Podcast: Made For More
• Hosts & Community: @tomySisterhood
  tomySisterhood.com for newsletters, events, and more.

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“Keep glowing and growing.”

Transcript

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[Susan Debras]

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[Susan Debras]

I found it very hard to be angry with God. But I was. I don't think freedom is for me. That's where I got to because I was participating in the activities of church, but I wasn't necessarily experiencing him.

[Courtney]

Faith isn't just for the experience and the display. It's actually transformational and anchored to our wellness.

[Susan Debras]

Things that I had shared in confidentiality to him. It came out that he was sharing that stuff with other people.

[Renee]

Wow. I found God and be sorely disappointed.

[Susan Debras]

I know God is real, but I just don't know who he is.

[Renee]

To me I'm disappointed. Disappointed in your people and in some ways I'm actually disappointed in you.

[Susan Debras]

Do I choose between being practical, you know, atomic habits or the Bible?

[Courtney]

When you actually take your intelligence and you allow it to come into your faith, you start asking God questions.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, we are all a significant part of God's plan on the earth. We are all an expression of who he is on the earth.

[Courtney]

How do we actually live out the more that God has made us for

[Susan Debras]

to answer your question which now I'm like where is the question?

[Renee]

Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast us. I'm Renee.

[Susan Debras]

I'm Courtney. And I'm Susan Debras and we are

[Courtney]

your online sisters and hosts of today's episode of the See My Sisters podcast.

[Renee]

Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters across the world.

[Courtney]

And in today's episode we are joined by the phenomenal. Oh my gosh. How where do we even start with you from coach, author, post caster podcaster all round girls girl. Our friend Susan De thank you for having me.

[Susan Debras]

This is, this is and I'm not saying this like lightly, this is a dream come true cuz I've been waiting to be on here and it's such an honor to be here. So thank you for having me. I love you guys so much. I adore you guys coming.

[Courtney]

Thank you for coming and thank you for being such a good friend. I feel like whenever I'm with you, I must let people know that you carry the heart of pure gold. Like the way you love on people, the way you use your prophetic edge to be there for people at the perfect time. I love you so much. And we love you. And you are just. You're an amazing woman. I'm so glad you are here today because today we are going to be talking about not hyper spiritualizing everything and how to actually be the woman who doesn't just jump from conference to conference, sermon to sermon, book to book, but doesn't actually get unstuck.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

From where they are. How do we actually live out the more that God has made us for?

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so you can speak directly to that because you have a podcast called Made for More.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And that is a core part of your ego ethos. And even when you host your gatherings, coffee and prayer and different events that you do, you really hammer to women that, you know, faith isn't just for the experience and the display. It's actually transformational and anchored to our wellness. And there's a phrase you often use where, if it's spirit. And there's a phrase you often use which goes, if it's spiritual, it's practical.

[Susan Debras]

Right.

[Courtney]

I think a lot of people have lost a practical element of faith. And faith has become, we always say, like, hocus pocus.

[Susan Debras]

Right.

[Courtney]

Which in itself is a spell. So, you know, every one of the blood of Jesus. But it's become very, you know, if people are praying, they're praying in tongues. And, you know, people don't know how to say thank you to God anymore before they have to bring Rabba Shah into it.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so in a world like that, why is it important for us to simplify the gospel message so that people can actually get to the core of it?

[Susan Debras]

Yeah. I think for me personally, it's so important because I believed in that space and in that realm where I have felt forever stuck or I have believed that I will never move from where I am based on the things that I've experienced, the things that I've witnessed. There was a moment where I was just like, okay, is this just something that we're doing on a Sunday? You know, but the shift for me happened when I suddenly realized I looked through the Word and I was like, actually, the Word says that we're meant to be fruitful. And not just fruitful in the sense of, oh, I've got good character, but I'm actually Making movement. And I think that we are all a significant part of God's plan on the earth. We are all an expression of who he is on the earth, wherever we are, whichever space we occupy, whatever industry we occupy. And so our faith actually is an advant, a resource for us to fully show up as who he is in the earth, as a creative answer. Do you know what I mean? And so I think it's shifting people from the mindset that consecration or this call to holiness is restricted to the church setting and saying, actually, no, like our faith, our consecration, when I use that term, consecration, us being set apart or honoring the values that come with our faith, what that does actually enables or galvanizes us to actually show and reveal Him. But I think we've just been so used to, you know, being in the four walls of church and fighting over the pulpit, and this is ministry, when actually your pulpit is in your office. Your pulpit is in the gift that you have, the talents that you have, the skills that you have that is showing a facet of God that maybe people will never experience if it's not you. So, yeah, yeah, I feel like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

[Courtney]

No, I love that. I love that. And I think what you mentioned about having been in that place. Right. Could you tell us more about, like, just a time in your life where it has felt like you're a bit stuck or stagnant or you are not fruitless, because obviously God is producing different things in us. But it has felt like, actually I'm not producing fruit in accordance to what I'm called to do, called to live. Because I think there are a lot of women who may look at someone like yourself who is clearly operating in their calling. Right, and has done the work, but is now on the other side and think, dang, I'm so far off from there, or she could never have experienced maybe the insecurity or the lack of clarity that I currently have. Talk to us about that time when you were feeling stuck or stagnant. And how did you actually come out of that?

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, you know, I feel like I have a story, child, but let me. I'm trying to, like, bring it in a little bit. There was. I lost both of my parents when I was really young, before the age of seven. And then my life after. I always say it felt like the rug got pulled from underneath my feet, you know, because one minute I was with my mom. She was living, she was alive. And then the next minute, she wasn't there. But what happened was, was then I was catapulted in spaces where I didn't feel like I belonged. I didn't feel like I was understood or that I was heard. It was almost like, be seen but not heard. You know, I feel as though at that time, my voice was taken away from me as well, in the sense of, like, we have this thing in our community, in our culture, where it's like, things are happening, but we don't really talk about it.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Susan Debras]

And so all of these. How the adults in my life maneuvered, kind of sent me a message that, hey, you stay silent. You know, you just stay where you are. You stay small. And so a lot of that, the abuse that I experienced, a lot of that fall followed me into faith. And so even though I was, like, raising my hands in church, child, I was at that altar call every Sunday. Every Sunday. That topic, yeah. Rededicating my life, you know, I struggled a lot. Even in terms of my sexuality, I really did struggle. And for me, it was just like, the frustration was, why is it not working for me? Like, I'm coming to the altar, but it's not working for me. Like, I. And that's where I got to a point where I was like, I don't think freedom is for me. And that is not the design of God. That's not the heart of God. But that's where I got to, because I was participating in the activities of church, but I wasn't necessarily experiencing him. And so it wasn't until I experienced church hurt in 2014. And I'm taking you somewhere, I'm taking you on a journey as to where I got to. But it wasn't until I experienced church hurt. Now, this church was a highly prophetic church. Very like apostle, prophets, et cetera. I believed that my purpose was tied to this church. Okay? Like, the prophecies I was getting was intertwined with this church. And so it came out that the pastor was. Had sexual misconduct with the male ministers. So male pastor, male ministers. That tells you everything. Not only that, it tells us. That's a story, you know, but also, like, you know, something that really broke my heart was so I've come from this space where I didn't find belonging. You know, I don't have much family. I don't know my. I didn't know my biological dad, and I only knew my mom, and I was the only child between my mom and my dad. And I was also estranged from my. My mum's side of the family. And so for me, when people say family, I'm in this church context, which is like family. It meant like, it was family to me. So I was one of the people that were saying, daddy, pastor, you know what I'm saying? Because that's how it was. Like, I have belonging here. And so anyway, when everything came out, one of the things that broke my heart with that was that he was things that I had shared in confidentiality to him. It came out that he was sharing that stuff with other people. So now I'm like. And not only that, the prophetic words that I was getting was basically engineered by things that I was sharing with him. And so now it's like, do I hear from God? Is this real? I'm questioning, child, take me to an Anglican church. Like, I know that God exists, okay? But I want to easy in, easy out. I don't need no relationships. That's the place I got to. But there was a deep confusion about my sense of significance and purpose in God's plan, right? Because a lot of it was a connected to this church. And so anyway, slowly but surely I. That was the moment. I feel like that was the moment where faith now became an actual reality to me. Because now, like out of the concept or the infrastructure of the church, the Sunday being there every single day of the week, I don't have that no more. But I know he's real. I know God is real, but I just don't know who he is to me, you know? And so as I began to go on that journey, at the same time there were insecurities, there were things I believed. For example, I felt like God hated me, that he didn't love me, because I'm like, you let me go through so much stuff. And so the reason why I share that is that I'm going through this journey and this moment. And as I'm being rebuilt, I'm realizing that, okay, I have these big dreams, right? I want to do so much more. And so I start trying to pursue these things. And it's almost like, you know, like when you're trying to start a car and the car isn't starting and I'm like, yo, like, what's going on? I'm reading the Bible. I'm doing this. And that's where I began this journey of actually, there are some practical elements to this, such as therapy, such as personal development and self growth. There's an inner work that I. There's practical things that I need to do in order for me to break out of this cycle and live freely in who I am and be the person I'm meant to be like, living the more that God has called me to. And so to answer your question, which now I'm like, where is the question? It's at that point where I realized that actually this cannot just be a Sunday experience. It can't. And the essence of who God is is very much practical.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Susan Debras]

He spoke, and then something happened. There was movement that followed what he spoke. Right. There was something practical, something physical, something tangible that happened as a response to who he was and what he was trying to implement in the earth. And so now when I translate that into my own life, I'm like, okay, there is a work that you do in me spiritually, but there's also a greater work practically that is done so that I can express who you are.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Susan Debras]

And I can step into that more.

[Renee]

That's so beautiful. Honestly, you have such a powerful story.

[Susan Debras]

Oh, thank you.

[Renee]

And there were so many elements of that that when I say I can personally relate. But I think one thing that really stuck out to me was the reality of going through disappointment. Right. You're going through this journey of redefinition. You're going through this journey of getting to know God personally. And I think along the way, sometimes we can come across his people, we can come across communities and things that we really think, wow, I found God. And be sorely disappointed. And that in of itself, the church hurt can lead us to stagnancy. So talk to us a little bit about experiencing disappointment, wrestling with disappointment as well, because oftentimes we don't like to admit that's how we feel. Yeah. And we also don't even like to admit to God. Hey, I'm disappointed. Disappointed in your people. And in some ways, I'm actually disappointed in you. So talk to me a little bit about how you wrestled with God, how you wrestled with yourself and the experience of disappointment, how you. You overcame that.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, that's such a good question. And you know what? Transparently, I think is something that I'm continuously working with. And the reason why I say that is that there are a lot of, like, religious things, religious confinements or religious rules or bars. I don't know how to explain it. Like, that we have created. That doesn't give us permission to be fully human. And I think that is something that I'm continuously working with when it comes to disappointment, because the reality is we are human. Like, I'm a human being in that moment. I found it very hard. I didn't. I found it very hard to be angry with God. But I was. I just wasn't expressing it, but I was. And there were other things that were happening in me or happening through me that showed that I was angry and disappointed at God. Like, why did you lead me to this church? You know, because also, I want to put it out there that also I believed I was someone that heard from God that I was prophetic. Right? If I'm using that as an example, I'm like, I hear from you. So what? You couldn't give me no intel. You know, I'm like one small, small text message voice note, something, you know, a little warning. Just a little warning. A dream. Like, literally. But you know what? Also something that we have to consider in our humanity, which is. Which is a flaw, but also a gift, is that when I look back on it, there were moments that God was speaking and it wasn't speaking as in thus save the Lord or in a dream, per se. It was the red flags that my loyalty went before the reality of the. The content of the person, the fruit of the person. And so I think, like, if I'm thinking about disappointment, I had to first wrestle with the disappointment in myself because I need you to understand that I was also very independent. So I'd been living. I was made homeless at 14 and 16. So I was living by myself since I was 16. So I was my boss, okay? I was the last. If I don't eat, it's because I didn't do anything to eat. Do you understand? And so for me, it was like, okay, the disappointment, like, how could you let this happen? I was wrestling with that. Then it was a compounded disappointment of, like, God, once again, I'm broken and I'm in pain. And, like, I just feel like you're not there. And I think one of the things that I'm working through now continuously is being okay with that feeling of disappointment. Something that my therapist said was that, Susan, anger always leads to mercy. You have to feel anger.

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[Susan Debras]

You have to. Without the feeling of anger, you can never get to mercy. And I think it's like that, processing that acceptance of how you really are. And Jesus is a model of this. You know, he's in the garden of Gethsemane and he's like, yo, like, if you can, let's just pass this. Let's just. We're just seeing this model of like Jesus being vulnerable. You know, with Lazarus dying, there is Jesus wept. I know we laugh because it's just the two words that is the. But it's, it's a powerful two words because it's telling us that we can, we can still grieve and believe God. You know, we can still have disappointment and have faith. Like that disappointment does not mean that I have less faith. So I think for me it's coming to terms with that reality that I'm allowed to be human, you know, and then processing that in such a way, I'm processing it with God and he's allowing it, he's given permission for it. You know, cast your cares, he's giving room for it. He cares about my well being. And so it's me. It's the religious confinements that I've been stuck in that is stopping me from saying, hey, I'm disappointed at that. And giving room for God to give me context.

[Courtney]

That's good. Yeah, that's really good. I want to explore more of this idea of women hyper spiritualizing their process. Right. Because it's inherently spiritual. The process of becoming, the process of evolving. It's all God drawing things out of us, pruning us. And we can attach all of this religious language to it, but it can become crippling when we think that it's all God's job. Yeah, right. And we don't allow ourselves to do the personal development and apply wisdom and allow ourselves to maybe see the red flags in us which we have become blind to. So I want you to speak to that for women who maybe at some point in their personal development, they've kind of got to a God, only you can do it. And maybe they've abdicated their role in their growth or A woman who feels like, oh, but if I, if I take my personal growth into my own hands, am I leaving God out of the picture? Right? Am I under spiritualizing things? Because I think even within, within this sisterhood, right, we've certain episodes where it's been purely, I guess, practical and self development and personal development, career growth, and then there have been very heavy faith leaning episodes. And you're kind of like, ah, the two feel so distant. But actually I think our sisterhood represent the fact that the two go hand in hand. You can't talk about the practical without talking about the spiritual and vice versa. But there are women who are still wrestling with, okay, I'm either going to let it be a purely faith thing or I'm going to let it be. It's in my hands. How do you speak to the woman who's like, I need to have a

[Susan Debras]

better mix of both, you know, what is, and what you're speaking to is almost that we have to choose. Do I choose between being practical, you know, atomic habits or the Bible? But what if I offered another perspective where it's like, but why can't the Holy Spirit be upon part of the journey of implementing new habits? Do you know what I mean? Like, that is enough. Like he, like we're journeying with him, he is in us and he works through us. So why can't we, why can't he? Why can't it coexist? So for example, when I started going therapy, the I was like, God, where do you sit in this, you know, this healing journey? If I'm honest, therapy also felt kind of like again that, that thought of like, I don't have enough faith, you know, like if, if I get external help, you know, the Holy Spirit's my counselor, you know what I'm saying? And God is just like, girl, I would. How long should I be with you? What I mean, are you not getting it? Like, Michael, go get her. You know what I'm saying? Like the Holy Spirit. No, no, no. But it's like, but a lot of us feel like that, right? And I've heard that rhetoric where it's like, the Holy Spirit's my counselor and stuff. But no, what if we thought of it from the perspective of God has allowed, you know, skills and you know, information to develop to this point where it can actually be a resource for us and we actually bring him in the context of what we are trying to do, you know. And so when I was doing therapy, what that looked like for me practically was, I've Just finished unpacking this, like, this hard, deep thing. And then after my session, I just invite the Lord and I'm like, lord, you know me reach those places that even my therapist hasn't reached. You know, heal me, Lord. Like, show me truth that will touch an area or bring me to a place or bring me into youo original design. That's the type of thing that he can put. It can coexist. Like, it's not separate, you know, whilst I'm trying to implement better health options. Child, I told you about my no sugar. Yeah. But then even in something like that, it's like, holy Spirit, give me a new appetite.

[Courtney]

That's right.

[Susan Debras]

Like, give me a new way of doing this. You know, it does not have to be separate, but the lie that we've been told is that we have to choose. And we do not have to choose, because I feel like that limits the vastness of who God is. So are you telling me that God is not enough to be a part of this particular journey, but he's enough to create this world that we all live and see? Do you get what I mean? Like, the world is actually still in motion from the beginning when he spoke, let there be light. Light still comes, the moon is still. Everything is in place. And I want to limit God to how much of my life he can consume. No. You know, no. Like, God is greater, God is bigger, you know, and so he walks. He wants to walk this journey with me. Like I said, he's in me. He works. He's in me and he works through me. And so what that looks like, again, another practical thing is that like, God, what. What's your mind concerning some of the projects that I have, you know, give me fresh creativity.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Susan Debras]

Give me a grace to innovate. And I'm telling you, I've sold pro. I've solved problems in a shorter time than me trying to use my own intellect because he's interested in it. He wants me to be someone who is diligent so he will give me the grace. He will divinely empower me to be diligent. You know, the Holy Spirit convicted me two years ago and he was like. I was like, God, like, I was like, I need. I need to make more money and stuff. And he was just like, yeah, you know, I was like, bless the works of my hand. And he was just like, I can't bless what's not in your hand. And I was just like, oh, right here. We doing this right here. Why didn't you wait till I Had. Had breakfast or something, you know. But again, the spiritual and the practical, yeah, I can favor you, I can bless it, but what is in your hand, you know, I can. He took Moses's stuff and he said, I can. If you throw it to the ground, if you do something with it, I'll show you what I can do. Again, he is interested. You know, he wants to be involved. And so he puts his soup on. On our natural, essentially.

[Courtney]

I love that. I love that. I think, especially as someone who obviously is an intellectual, I think you find yourself in spaces where people are like, how can you be an intellectual or an academic or someone who, you know, loves education, loves information, loves society and have faith. Right? And it's this constant. You should pick one. You have to pick one. But it's actually like, no, because one informs the other. And actually my faith enhances this because I believe that God is so much bigger than even my own intellectuality.

[Susan Debras]

Yes.

[Courtney]

So the questions that I have, the lens with which I look at things, when I invite God into that, I see it from a completely different perspective. That enriches my faith and also enriches my work. And so to divorce the two would actually be doing either a disservice. And the reason why I say either is because when you actually take your intelligence and you allow it to come into your faith, you start asking God big questions and you start saying, okay, God, you know, this is something I'm seeing in the world that is an unfairness or an injustice, justice, or something that doesn't quite make sense. I have to believe that you have something to say about this because I can't have found the loophole in your system.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, right.

[Courtney]

So you clearly have something to say about X, Y, Z. And so it enriches my faith because I'm now allowing myself to think of God outside of those religious parameters. Yeah, right. So, yeah, I love that.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah. Yeah. So, sorry, but why would God wire us the way he. Why would he do that? You know, the other day I was talking to someone and they were like, I'm really systematic. I'm very logical. I'm very black and white. And I said, great. And they were like, yeah, but I want the spontaneous. I want to. Like, do I. And I was like, no, don't work against yourself. Why would God wire you that way? No, work with your system, right? Like, create a system that gives him room to move, you know, and sometimes he might mess it up. But I don't see why God would wire you the way that he has or Give you a passion and an interest. And he doesn't want to infiltrate that with his spirit. Yeah, I love that. Yeah.

[Renee]

As you were speaking, just to kind of go back to the hyper spiritualization religious psychosis. I know that's September.

[Susan Debras]

Oh, oh, is it? Oh, wow. I'm learning something new every day. I was like, when are we going

[Renee]

to throw that one out there? Because that's been, that's been, that's been. What's very interesting is a lot of that kind of content, a lot of that articulation is being spearheaded by women. But you see a lot, a lot of women getting to a particular point in their life where they are frustrated, they are going through a lot of emotional wounds, they have reached their limit or whatever and they have gotten to this place where religion becomes their crutch. And so for the women that are not even necessarily listening, but the women that are in that space, in that place where religion has now become almost an idol in their lives to a point where they can't really move or do much or, you know, as Courtney was mentioning earlier, they are, they're allowing religion to kind of take the place of their practical action and then partnering with God to do something. How do they unfix themselves from that place? And how do you. Women that are in close proximity to these women, how do they support them? Because it's almost like everyone knows at least one person that is suffering from religious psychosis. Right. In somebody's mom, it's somebody's auntie, it's somebody's sister. So it's something that, you know, is, is very prevalent and present for a lot of women. So how does the woman get out of that position? But also how does the woman who is the friend, the mother, whatever, how does she support somebody in that position?

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, sorry to interject, but I actually

[Courtney]

think it'll be good for you to define that though, because obviously the word psychosis has a lot of context around it. So I think even for the fact that you've just heard the term and stuff, it'll be good to unpack. What do you mean by religious psychosis?

[Renee]

Yes, yes.

[Courtney]

In the way that it's being thrown around in culture versus like an actual clinic. Yeah, Diable, clinical.

[Renee]

This is it. But the way that religious psychosis has been used is co opted. It essentially means somebody who has allowed religion or religious practices to overtake their sense of self. So their whole identity gravitates around them being this one thing or being connected to God or whatever version of or variant of God they believe in at that time, which is important because again, the way that God expresses himself to us can be very, very different. But somebody whose literal whole life is reverberates around how close they are to religion, how close they are to being a religious person, how close they are to being a moral superhero for all intents and purposes. And they live a very regimented life as well. So literally there is nothing that can be done and nothing that can be moved outside of their religion. It's almost like for what we've seen online and kind of what we've seen in culture, it's almost like an individualistic culture in that, yeah, they have this perception of self that they, they basically cannot. And they may have some, you know, spiritual experiences that they recount and whatnot, but it's basically religion in the extremities. That is religious psychosis.

[Susan Debras]

That's really good. And I love that context as well. And I'm like, I'm like, oh, I know a few people, at least one. No, no, no. And you know what? I've been there as well. You know, before this church hurt. That is me. You know, I think one of the things, and if I talk from my own personal experience, one of the things was you, you said a key word, prior, which was to do with wounds. And I think a lot of religiosity is connected to identity where we make it. It's literally an identity and it is work based, you know, And I think when I think about it, I just, when I look back at myself, my younger days, I'm like, what would have become of me if someone gave me permission to be human? You know, Because I think people expected it. You know, they expected, oh, Susan, Yeah. Oh, you know, she's serious, you know, I mean, she has a word or she's praying. And don't get me wrong, there is an element of religion that isn't bad. Like, I'm talking about the disciplines of religion. Okay. So there is a part of that where I'm like, I'm grateful that I had that experience, but it is the permission to be a human being and not a human doing. Yeah. You know, and so I, I wonder what it looks like when people actually see someone and they're like, okay, I'm going to give them the room. Like, I'm not just asking how you are, I'm asking, how's your heart? And I'm relentless in leaning in a little bit deeper than what you're actually offering me right now. You know, I think that that is so, so important, because I think in one way or another, we enable the behavior that comes with that. And we don't really, like, open up the opportunity for people to be something else than what they're offering. You know what I mean? And so it's that being able to be like, okay, like, it's not challenging, but having those conversations where it's like, okay, I understand you go every day, but how are you, like, are you actually looking after yourself and giving room for those conversations to happen? So that's the first thing that I would say in terms of breaking out of this religious psychosis. That would be the first thing. And then the second thing. And I did have something, guys. I really did have something, and it was right there. The second thing that I would say is also, like, how do we then begin to even create spaces in our church settings where it is not as religious? Do you get what I mean? How do we start creating that where it's just like, okay, we've done all of that, but now it's like, okay, cool. Like the. The therapy or the. What we actually doing about your life? Like, what are. What's your strategy, babes? Because you say God said, and we're. It's five years. Like, what are you. Like, prove your God to me. I think we have to, like, be okay with. Be challenging people. And I know, you know, at my church that I lead with my husband is something that we're like, okay, if God said, then why are we still waiting? So is he a liar or are we. What. What are we doing here? Being able to be like, can you prove this word that you're saying? Like, because I think the time is nigh. Do you get what I'm saying? It's about time, like, actually being okay with challenging people, pushing them out of, like, the confinements in their own minds as well. Like, where they have, like, made it such a thing that they're waiting for this feeling or they're waiting for this moment, when it's just like, the moment is now. You create the moment, and so not being afraid. And I think it goes back to my point about we. We are too comfortable leaving people where they are. And in the name of sisterhood or community, community is there. Like, sharpening means that there will be sparks. And part of those sparks are challenging a mindset that looks like it is actually not a reflection of God, even though you've made it that way. And so settings in church where we can have real conversations or that we have permission to challenge it as well. So on the one hand, it's like, okay, I want to give you permission to be human. And then on the other hand, it's just like, Barbara, do you know what I mean? We have. I hope that answers your question. But, like, I'm trying to think about, like, the practical means in which we can do that. And then on a spiritual level, it's like, holy Spirit, bring them into a place.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Susan Debras]

Where they can experience the true. The true essence of who you are. And I put it out there, you know, when we do say that prayer point, it means that there will be challenges, you know, but it's then in their challenges or in those moments where they are vulnerable, are saying like, okay, now it's okay. Forget the religious jargon. It's okay.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I love that. Forget the religious. Oh, thank you. I love that. Forget the religious jargon. Right. And I think a lot of people are done playing church. You know, it's that someone asks you, how are you? I'm blessed and highly favored.

[Susan Debras]

It's like, no, I'm not, actually. Yeah.

[Courtney]

Falling apart. Exactly. And women want to be able to enter into spaces where they can be themselves. They can find the help and the support that they need. And I want us to touch really quickly on this was conversation we've had in the past, but I think it'll be really great to touch on.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because I think a lot of women have brought their real, authentic and raw self into the church, and then they found themselves marginalized because it's too messy. It's too. I mean, whether it's divorce, children out of wedlock, is struggling with some type of sin, or just not being the type of woman who fits into the church girl archetype. Right.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah. What do you.

[Courtney]

What do you say to the woman who's experienced meanness in church? I'll be honest. Because mean church girls is becoming a real thing. A real thing where women are like, okay, you're saying the women's conference or the women's ministry. I'm the women's ministry leader at my church. Right. And I think to myself, okay, I wouldn't want this place to be marketed as a safe space for you to grow and be nurtured as a woman and as a daughter of God. But then when you come here, we don't want to accept or help or heal every part of you. Right. And therefore, you're experiencing judgment or you're experiencing feeling like you're not worthy. What do you say to that woman who's been burnt by that, where she Feels like I'm not the typical church girl. And typical church girls have judged me and they have made me feel like. I mean, there's a. There's a reason why the woman at the well was coming out at the time. She was coming out.

[Susan Debras]

Yes.

[Courtney]

Right where other women were not going to be at the well. Because everyone has been talking about her and her business. So for that woman who's like, I, I want Jesus, but I don't want you, his people.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

What do you have to say to that?

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, I resonate so much with that. Actually. The woman at. The. Woman at the well is actually a story I really, really resonate with and I see myself in. Because when I did, when I came into church, when I gave my life to Christ, at the time, I'd had a bad breakup with a boyfriend and then he turned into a situationship. But that's another shout out to another episode all together, okay? And I was still sleeping with him. So I was in church. I was still sleeping with him. I was very much. Because I'd been. I was in the world, man. Like, that's the space my people were. Were not of faith. You know what I'm saying? My world, it wasn't. It wasn't this, you know, and so my mannerisms, the way I thought, the way I conducted myself, the way I dressed, you know, I was a very hippie girl, you know, I liked tight jeans. I like, like, I. Let me not even call it tight jeans. Let me not say it like that I liked jeans that the girls in church didn't like me wearing. Okay. Let's put it that way. Okay. And I remember, I will never forget, we had like a choir thing and some of the girls were basically whispering about me and they were basically like, why is she wearing those jeans? Like, she just. And I remember feeling so heartbroken. And I think that was a seed where I was like, I never want anyone to feel the way that I feel in this moment. Like, come, this is supposed to be a safe space. Now. The redemption was in the midst of being judged by other women, was that there was a minority that were for me. And they saw me, you know, that sort like, Ra, She's a diamond in the rough. You know what I mean? I was still swearing here and there. Still. Still sleeping with my then situationship, you know, like, it was. Listen, I was rough, guys, you know what I mean? Being like, you see me now, but that's not been my story, you know? You know, And. But when I look back, my saving grace was that actually there was a minority of people that see me and they showed their character. They had the capacity to handle my heart. Those girls that were being mean girls did not have the capacity. And so I was, I think, leaning into that space. The minority of people that saw me and were, for me, was more important to me than the. The people that had something to say. Now, I think that there is a responsibility as leaders, because now as I lead a church, I'm not women's leader per se, but I'm. I'm the pastor child.

[Courtney]

So

[Susan Debras]

I am a leader that is a woman. But now I think something that I was ever so intentional about when we were starting the church was that I wanted all the women to be accepting of one another. You don't need to be best friends now, okay? But what you will do is that you'll be accepting of differences. And so that is like a culture that I've tried to cultivate over the years in terms of, like, the ladies being really accepting and stuff like that. And I think that is on us to create that culture as leaders, to be like, okay, because the reality is people are going to have their preferences, you know, but we're not mean about our differences. If you don't like it, you don't like it, move on. A second thing is around. So the second.

[Courtney]

Even paint red.

[Susan Debras]

I know there's. I say the second thing is around what was. Was right there. Culture, fruit of character. Sorry, guys, I'm just connecting that fruit of character. There was a third thing that I wanted to really, really highlight in terms of being in religious settings with other women, with mean girls. In essence, it will come back as I'm speaking, but in essence, I think the important thing for me was about creating a space where everyone felt seen and accepted. And there wasn't that part of, like, you can't sit with us, you know, that energy. And so to the girl that feels as though, hey, I'm not. I don't fit the bill of being a church girl, My first thing would be, can you find safe spaces in the majority? And like, with a minority within the majority of the people, can that be your safe space? You know, can that be the place where you can build yourself up, where you can actually withstand those people? And I think that God honors our differences and he loves the version of us now as much as the version that he is trying to get us to be, you know, and so can we lean into that truth and that reality to help us with so that we can integrate? Because we need community so there is a truth that we need so that we can. So that we can really integrate and then lean into the minority and then also be. Be the change that we want to see as well. You know, that's kind of my thoughts around that.

[Courtney]

Yeah, I think that's so beautiful.

[Susan Debras]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Courtney]

Yeah. And I guess on love.

[Susan Debras]

Oh, did you want to say.

[Courtney]

No, I was just going to say, I guess on last. I mean, we asked our guests to leave a little tidbit for the sisters. To my sisters. So could you look down your camera and just give a. To my sisters. To the girls.

[Susan Debras]

To my sisters. Every aspect of who you are matters to God. There is no part of you that God does not see, and there's no part of you that he does not accept. Accept. He loves every element of who you are. And there is a treasure that he has placed inside of you that he desires not only for you to enjoy, but for the world to also experience. And so I just really want to remind you that you are made for more. That you are more than the things that you have experienced. You are more than some of the struggles that you have had. You are more than what people have said about you. There is more to you than what you have experienced. And so if you can just grab onto the reality of who God is, you will find that that one decision will lead you into the more that God has for you. To my sisters.

[Renee]

Oh, fantastic.

[Susan Debras]

And natural.

[Renee]

You think that she's been doing for a really long time. Well, but actually on that note, Ms. Susan.

[Susan Debras]

Debra.

[Renee]

Yeah. Where can we find you? How can we support you? What can we listen to? All the things.

[Susan Debras]

All of the things. You can catch me on Instagram, on TikTok, or Susan Deborah's on YouTube. My podcast made for more. A space created to get you from where you are to where you want to be. It is where personal development meets faith. Yeah.

[Courtney]

And if you watch her vlogs, you might see her from a new thing. Very, very, very great. Grateful that you came and you shared your knowledge, your story with us. Thank you for always sharing your heart with us. We love you deeply and, sisters, we hope you have enjoyed this episode. Okay, if you have, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. Make sure you comment down below. Tell us what was your favorite thing from this conversation. And if you're listening to this on audio platforms, make sure that you rate the podcast five stars. Because we're on a street. Girl on a street.

[Susan Debras]

Five stars.

[Courtney]

If it's four. If it's less than four. Got it. But yeah. And you can follow us everywhere on socials at to my sisterhood to keep up with what we are doing. From events to classes to retreats. We got it all.

[Renee]

All the things. All the things. And of course, you can follow our mailing list. You can join us [e-mail] for a weekly glowing and growing love letter. Straight to your inboxes, ladies. We adore you. We hope you have a phenomenal week ahead.

[Courtney]

And as always, keep glowing and growing.

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[Courtney]

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