← To My Sisters
To My Sisters
From Surviving to Thriving: How We're Breaking Generational Cycles and Birthing New Ones
01:03:56
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- [00:02]
Courtney
Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails.
- [00:05]
Captain
Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching.
- [00:07]
Courtney
Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?
- [00:13]
Renee
Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit.
- [00:23]
Courtney
On your next campaign.
- [00:24]
Renee
Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply.
- [00:32]
Courtney
In today's conversation, we are going to be talking about going from survival mode to thriving, just breaking generational mindset.
- [00:42]
Renee
Even though we have been taken out of this environment of scarcity, we still are operating in that dimension right now.
- [00:50]
Courtney
We're definitely facing a pandemic of hustle culture and like, work hard, grind hard, and you'll sleep when you die.
- [00:57]
Renee
I do think fear is a big motivating factor for a lot of people. Fear, fear, fear.
- [01:03]
Courtney
This idea of being a strong woman, a strong black woman. And again, it can be passed down through family, but it can also be a cultural inheritance.
- [01:15]
Renee
Love the trend of I'm just a girl right now because I do think that there are attempts, especially by black women, to try and reclaim girlhood was denied to them and has been denied to us for a really long time.
- [01:27]
Courtney
Shame is really tough because shame tries to tell you about who you are and not just what you've been through.
- [01:32]
Renee
What are alternatives, ways in which you can still get that joy or still access that joy that isn't contingent on you burning yourself out, that isn't contingent on you trying to make a boatload of money. That isn't contingent on you violating your own boundaries. It's all about sustainable living. Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.
- [01:58]
Courtney
And I'm Courtney and we are your online sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.
- [02:02]
Renee
Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters across the world.
- [02:08]
Courtney
And in today's conversation, we are going to be talking about going from survival mode to thriving, just breaking generational mindset. I think one thing that we have highlighted throughout not just our podcast but as a generation and conversation over the Internet, is the importance of breaking generational cycles and curses. But a lot of those manifestations through passed down traditions, mindset and just views of certain things, especially work, work ethic and hustle. And so I really want us to dive deep into how to break off these generational mindsets and how to really go from just surviving, maybe barely having enough, whether that be economically, whether that be relationally and really changing our lives, to now being in a place of Thriving and really having abundance and just moving in a direction of really achieving all the things that we dream of for ourselves and for future generations to come. So hopefully it'll be a productive conversation for you. But I think we first need to start off by addressing what are some of the negative generational mindsets that have been passed down to our generation and that we feel like we need to kind of contend with.
- [03:31]
Renee
Yeah, no, that's a really great starter question. Start off at 10. I think one thing that really does come to mind is scarcity mindset, Right. I think a lot of us may have had the experience, or at least our parents, the generation before us, of growing up with some form of lack. I think the one that we often focus on is financial lack, or it may be lack in terms of time as well. We have a lot of our caregivers that were very devoted to their work, and so that meant that it was quite difficult for them to balance caregiving responsibilities, ability with spending time with us as children. So scarcity in some form, which makes it very difficult for you to receive abundance when your mind has trained itself to be in an environment of scarcity. There's been a whole bunch of, like, prolific studies with, like, animals, for example, where they're put in environments where there's some kind of restriction or limitation, Right. I think there was one done on, like, fleas. There's another one that's done on monkeys where basically they've put them in a jar. And, you know, flies can fly however high for their. For. For their height, right? But because they had the limitation of the glass over their head, the flies could only, like, jump, or they could only fly so high, as high as, you know, the glass would permit. What was really interesting was after a period of time, the jar was removed. But what they found was really interesting in that the flies could only still fly to that height, despite the limitation. Right? Despite the limitation actually being lifted. So what you actually find for a lot of us is we're living in that reality, and that's how our mindset actually operates. It's even though we have been taken out of this environment of scarcity, that would necessitate a scarcity mindset and a survival instinct. We still are operating in that dimension. We are still, you know, thinking that a lot of things that should be afforded to us are scarce, whether it be finances, whether it be caregiving, having low expectations of the people that we have around us because of the fact that these things were denied to us, or they were in scarce city when we were growing up. So I think that's one major thing that our generation has got to contend with based off of the back of what generations before us have experienced. I think another thing that comes to mind for me is attachment issues, but specifically around commitment. I think in our generation we are seeing actually a response to perhaps commitment to its extreme in the generations before us. So especially in kind of like my experience, I know my parents to be very committed people. Like, they will stay in a situation, or even my aunties and uncles, you know, we often hear of stories of a no good husband or wife or whatnot. And we hear that the relationship has continued for better, for worse. They take those vows very, very seriously. Or, you know, we hear of the baby boomer generation being a generation that's very like, stout when it comes to work. They're hanging around for like 10, 20 years. You know, you go to workplaces, work their way up despite challenges or if there's any kind of concerns that they may be experiencing. And I think seeing the toll that it actually takes on the human psyche over time as the generation that's come out of that has had many of us questioning, well, this commitment thing, I don't know if I want to do it just like you guys did. I don't know if I want to endure in something that I feel may end up being toxic. And I think what we're seeing is now the response to that being, I don't really want to be tied down to a situation and I really want to, you know, be. I want to fly. You know, I want to. I want to change up my situation. And that's not necessarily saying it's a bad thing. I don't think it is good to stay in situations that are toxic, but I think it is actually good that our generation is kind of looking at these situations and saying, oh, actually that may not fit me. Where it becomes tricky is when we don't have the capacity for endurance at all. So we're now finding ourselves in flighty relationships. We are now jumping from job to job. We are now jumping from project to project. Even the way that we interact with the Internet is so transient. We see reel after reel, we scroll like we're not committed and we're not focused because we don't have that commitment as well. So I think that's another way in which or another mindset that I think has actually come as a result of the experiences of a previous generation. And then this is not. I don't necessarily think this is like a well it is a mindset. But I do think fear is a big motivating factor for a lot of people. Fear, fear, fear. I think fear is something that holds a lot of people back from pursuing the things that they genuinely want to do. Whether it be like, fear of what people think, people pleasing, I think is a big thing that a lot of people deal with. Especially when, you know, the generation before us, they weren't necessarily as social media and as Internet literate as we are, but I think there was a sense of, okay, cool, think about what your community is going to think about you. There was a degree of, yeah, there was a degree of accountability, or at least there was a degree of surveillance in terms of, you know, the choices that you choose in, like, life or whatever. What's Auntie so and so going to think? I think that's actually increased exponentially with our generation because it feels as though everybody is watching. It feels like we're living in a surveillance state where it's like, rah, if I choose to do this with my life, I have to post it online, or like, I have to make sure that my life is this perfect amalgamation of different pictures and images and choices that I've made. And that pressure becomes super overwhelming to the point that the fear becomes overwhelming too. You start to get into a place of second guessing yourself. You start to take less risks because you're afraid of what the outcome would be. You start to think, oh, my gosh, my life needs to be this curated picture of perfection. And I think a lot of people are dealing with an extreme amount of people pleasing and perfectionism. So those are the three things that come to mind immediately for me in terms of what I think people are dealing with and mindsets that we really need to break off.
- [09:41]
Courtney
Good.
- [09:42]
Renee
I would love to hear what you think.
- [09:43]
Courtney
Yeah, I think you're spot on with those. I think some others, I could add, is this toxic relationship with work and thinking that, like, the only way to really make it is through grueling, hard, tedious, studious, elongated work just working. I think we've grown up seeing a lot of the older generation literally work till they drop dead. Like, and definitely that is an indication of social class and, you know, also the narratives that exist within society. Like, sometimes these generational mindsets are not just handed down maybe from your direct family, but it's the culture you're living in, it's the trends in that culture. Like, right now, we're definitely facing a pandemic of hustle culture and like, work hard, grind hard, and you'll sleep when you die. And it's like that in itself is a really stronghold of a mindset. It's a real stronghold of a mindset. I think another one is, like, you touched on risk aversion. I think this intolerance for risk, especially coming from, like, you know, amazing West African parents. Love, y'all. There's definitely a. I would say there's a real, genuine and loving need for your children to have security. And I think that projection of, okay, you need to do the degree, the, you know, career field that will offer you the most security can sometimes be a limitation. It can really be a limitation, especially if your kids want to explore something more creative or a new emerging industry or just something that's less familiar, less traditional. Traditional. But it's still promising, and to some degree, it's still secure. I think that mindset of, no, it needs to be safe. The only work that is meant to be done or worth doing is a safe job versus a job that maybe you're passionate about or a job you feel really called to. It limits us. It stifles us. It stifles our call. And I think a lot of people are still moving with that mindset, and it makes them averse to taking risks. It makes them averse to taking risks that will actually sometimes propel you to the goals that you say that you want as well. I think that's an inherited fear that a lot of us have, but also an inherited mindset around risk. And how. How many of us have heard tales of, oh, this auntie tried to invest in this, or this auntie tried to do this, or this uncle tried to do that, and it failed miserably. And now, like you said, that fear is passed down to us, but also, we are now scared to sometimes take those steps of faith that we need to take in order to achieve what we've been called to do. And so I. It's important to break off those limiting mindsets and beliefs when it comes to taking risks. Like, especially as someone who's, like, an entrepreneur in their family and one of few. It's like, when you tell people what you're doing, you definitely get that pushback of, like, really? And it's like, we don't think the same. Yeah, we don't think the same. And that's okay. Like, I have to be the person who thinks very differently about work and business and money as well, and putting money on the line for a dream. Yeah, a lot of people don't have that mindset. Right. And so it's really about shifting all of that. I want us to talk about the strong black woman trope, though, because I think that's a huge mindset that a lot of us who are listening maybe have inherited. Right. This idea of being a strong woman, a strong black woman. And again, it can be passed down through family, but it can also be a cultural inheritance.
- [13:18]
Renee
Yeah.
- [13:18]
Courtney
And so talk to me about black women and our relationship with the word strong and how from getting your history back, girl, and how from, you know, different generations, that relationship with that word has been, you know, made tense to some degree.
- [13:36]
Renee
It's a bit tense. Puts on glasses. So one thing that I want to comment on first, though, is I. I do love the trend of I'm just a girl right now, because I do think that attempts, especially by black women, to try and reclaim girlhood and reclaim being weak or defenseless and all that kind of good stuff that I think was denied to them and has been denied to us for a really long time. So the strong black women trope, I think we need to recognize where it's come from. And it's come from a time in history where, especially for black women in the Western Hemisphere, we have had to be strong or we've had to display strength because we found ourselves in situations of harm. Like we have found ourselves in family structures where, for example, in the United States, we have the history of the incarceration of black men. And that was a significant threat and completely obliterated so many family dynamics and so many family structures to the point that the woman that was left in the household would have to assume the role of provider, assume the role of matriarchy and patriarchy. We actually see the same in the. The United Kingdom as well, more so around the kind of like, 1960s when. 1950s, 1960s, after the Windrush, where you have the criminalization of a lot of black men and disproportionate amounts of them going to prison for a whole bunch of different things. But that's a separate topic. So you have this normalization of black women having to take on more roles than they should be taking, emphasis on should. And that's been passed down in history because obviously, you start with the harm of one generation, and a lot of that harm is passed down. Right. So you obliterate the. The family structure, and a lot of that is inherited. Right. So even the tropes around, like, absent black fathers. And it's really important to say that these are tropes and, like, this is actually not people's realities. But we also cannot deny the fact that a lot of the abuse structurally and institutionally that black families have experienced across the west has led to a lot of social and cultural norms, especially within black families, which have now been perpetrated by us inside the community, but also outside. So the strong black woman originated there, a need or necessity for the woman to now take up this mantle of being the leader of the household in every single respect and doing more than she is supposed to be doing. Absolutely. I know that there are certain cultures that are matrilineal where it's very normal for women to be in power and all of that kind of good stuff. But I would hesitate in terms of the strong black women in popular culture now in the West. That's very distinctive because men also had a role in those cultures as well. So matrilineal doesn't mean the absence of. Exactly. It doesn't mean the absence of men. It just means that there's a different structure and a different way that they operate. Whereas the strong black woman trope is very harmful because it actually signifies the absence of an authority, a power, an energy that actually should be there to kind of balance things out. So that's been passed down. And I think that because of obviously institutional factors, cultural factors, it's become normal for black women to now do more than they actually should be doing. We should be strong. And I think we see it permeated across culture in medicine. For example, the strong black black woman trope lives where we are still facing discrimination. We are still facing people saying, you know, Black women's tolerance to pain is much higher, despite the fact that we account for more deaths in the medical system, literally, despite the fact that we are more likely to deal with reproductive issues, despite the fact that we are more likely to be diagnosed with fibroids, despite the fact that literally across many illnesses that we observe in so many different races, we are always disproportionately higher. And so we see this trope start to undermine black women's entitlement to feel pain, entitlement to feel weak, entitlement to even girlhood. And another kind of part of that, I guess, strong black woman trope is we have never really had the opportunity to be a girl, to actually experience childhood. There's a whole bunch of associated narratives whereby black women are over sexualized, where black women don't really have an opportunity to be treated as a child because of the fact that they have been overhyped as this authority. As soon as you get a little Black girl coming into the world. She is primed and prepped to take on all of these different roles, never really having the opportunities to just be a girl. And the danger in all of these things is we are priming people for things that they cannot carry. Like, it's actually physically. We are literally training Black women to burn out. And it's not a coincidence that when I think about a lot of my Black female friends, even myself, experiencing mental burnout, physical burnout, and then also feeling guilty about the fact that I can't carry a load, not realizing that this load was never meant for me to carry in the first place.
- [19:01]
Courtney
So good.
- [19:02]
Renee
And I think it lends itself even further to black women's distrust of the system now. And it just leads to an exacerbation of. Of independence for black women. Well, now I know that this system is actually institutionally racist. Now I know that my culture is against me, then I'm going to get it on my own. The same thing occurs, if not worse, because now you're thinking, oh, my gosh, I need to be so independent. I need to make sure that I'm taking care of myself, because there's literally no other space that allows me to just be me, allows me to exist, and allows me to be somebody that is actually a dependent. Very few Black women, and dare I say it, Black girls get an opportunity to be a dependent.
- [19:40]
Courtney
Absolutely.
- [19:42]
Renee
It's okay to be a dependent.
- [19:43]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [19:44]
Renee
And in fact, it's actually important for you to experience being a dependent first before you can find any semblance of interdependence or even independence. And too many of us have been forced into roles of independence without having the necessary trust to be able to maintain relationships of interdependence. That's why so many of us are finding it difficult to trust people in relationships, because people didn't come through for us in the beginning. That's why people, so many of us are finding it so difficult to find community or, like, friends. We are so suspicious because there's so many other spaces where we're looked at as the pinnacle of strength. And so my desire for all Black women is it's actually okay to be weak. It's okay to be vulnerable. It's okay to put down that load that you're carrying.
- [20:36]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [20:36]
Renee
Because nine times out of ten, you're not supposed to be carrying that load just because you. There was something that you said in one of our, like, previous podcast episodes way back when. Just because you have become accustomed to limping doesn't mean that your life should actually be this way. It's actually, okay, set the load down. But also understand that you're not you and you're not experiencing your life as this independent black woman, this strong black woman because of you or anything necessarily that has, has been your fault. But also because of the factors and the things that have happened to you as a result, you too are actually a victim. And I think a lot of us actually need to sit with that fact that, ah, I've been a victim of something. Whether it is the institutional stuff, the cultural stuff, or even the relational stuff that's been perpetrated in our workspaces, in our, like, innermost relationships, unpacking and unearthing the fact that there are some stereotypes, there are some on real mindsets that other people carry, but also a mindset that I carry that is harmful to me, that I need to unlearn. Yeah. So, yeah, I've gone on a little bit of a run. It was perfect.
- [21:45]
Courtney
Absolutely perfect. So beautifully and eloquently put. I think you really encapsulated both the history but also the lived experience of a lot of women that I know. There are going to be a lot of women who hear that and feel like, okay, so I'm not crazy because I think that's a lot of people's reaction. Like, like, am I bugging? Is it just me? And it's like, no, this is something that's embedded in history. It's embedded, as you said, in institutions as well. And I love that you hinted on the fact that a lot of people struggle with interdependence because people haven't proven themselves dependable. And I think a lot of us have seen failures from certain people we were meant to depend on. And that failure indicated to us, or the feeling that that in that failure brought. Indicated to us that people should not be depended on. And so now it's very hard. If you couldn on your parents or your main caretakers, how do you depend on a partner who you only met yesterday? You know, how do you depend on friends you've only known for a couple of years when your main primary caretaker let you down and disappointed you in some way? And I think it's healing generational wounds. It's healing, you know, generational failures like our connection and our relationship with people who sit above us in that family line, you know, our parents, our aunties, our uncles. I think a lot of us are also carrying wounds from these familial relationships and these higher up vertical relationships and not just horizontal ones. And it's really impacting how we do horizontal relationship as well. Relationship with our siblings and friends and colleagues and stuff like that. And I think another thing to touch on, especially when it comes to Black women, is strength is trauma. A lot of us are dealing with the fallout from traumatic events that may have happened. The amount of black women, and to be honest, women in general who you meet who have stories and experiences with child sexual abuse or assault or just some very traumatic thing, even, like you've been saying, like poverty, the trauma of actual poverty, or the. The trauma of being a refugee, or the trauma of racism, or the just trauma everywhere. And it's not to say that defines the black women's story in existence entirely, but black women do go through a who bunch of disproportional trauma. And so many studies have been coming out about these endocrine issues or about these reproductive health issues and how they are really linked to trauma. Like, a lot of traumatic events happen, and women go on to now develop fibroids, pcos, cysts, like all these different things that happen in our reproductive system. And I think it's crazy because the reproductive system really does represent generations. It really does represent one generation to another. It represents the birth of a lineage, right? And so when you think about the fact that trauma affects the womb and the womb is what gives birth to the future generation, you have to remember that trauma is a generational thing. Trauma in your body can be passed into the child that may grow in your body, or it affects everything else that you birth in your life, like even spiritually. When you think about the pain that you may be carrying, it transfers into the way you do everything, right? So, for example, your. Your relationship with your mother may have been negatively affected by her relationship with your father. And now that trauma is enforcing how she raises you, right? Or informing how she raises you. And now you're carrying that pain with you everywhere you go. Now you distrust men because of something transferred into you to another woman's experiences. And it's completely understand, understandable, because another big word when we talk about. About generational curses, these things are cyclical. They really are cycles. And we think that cycles are easy to break, but they're really not. Cycles are maintained by habits, and habits are passed down. Habits are taught. One of our friends, who's a pharmacist, put on their story a video that was breaking down. We often talk about things like diabetes and hypertension as passed down genetically, but they're not genetic. They are habitual. That's why we say, does diabetes run in your family? It's not that it's in your blood. It's in your habits.
- [26:05]
Renee
Yeah.
- [26:05]
Courtney
And so a lot of us are learning habits, which are actually quite unhelpful for our health and for our future. And I want to talk about, for black women, specifically, how do we start going about practically healing any traumas that we may have faced? And we may have. We have. We may have living in our bodies.
- [26:24]
Renee
Yeah.
- [26:25]
Courtney
Not just in our memories, like actually physically in our bodies as well. Before we go on to talk about how that manifests in. In our work.
- [26:32]
Renee
Ye, that's a beautiful question. I think the thing about trauma is it often has to be released, like it needs to come out in some way. And the issue is not even necessarily that the trauma. Well, it is an issue that the trauma exists, but it's a bigger issue when it's repressed, because that's when it starts to manifest itself in different ways. As you were saying, habits or expressions and things that you do. I think the first thing that we actually need to do is identify the trauma and identify what it's causing you to do. I think there's different ways that we can do this. Therapy is a big one. I know we speak about that often on this podcast, and we know that it's not always the most accessible thing for everyone. But if you can, therapy is a really great investment because it really helps you, especially with someone that's a professional, someone that's actually licensed, and also somebody that's a little bit removed from your experience. I think having friends is a beautiful and a great way to help you with overcoming trauma. But it's only one of the tools that I think everyone should be able to use and draw from. And if you can afford it and if it is something that's within your arsenal, I would invest in therapy because it's really, really helpful to have somebody help you go through that process of bringing out what has been repressed, especially for black women, especially because the trope that exists for us is the strong black woman. And that often requires us to hide things away or lock things away so that we can present a sheet of strength. Oftentimes, we need spaces where we can bring down the fortress a little bit to be able to exhale and let go of these things. So I think if you can afford it and if it is accessible to you, I would definitely recommend therapy. I think if it's not, like, super accessible to you right now, definitely doing your own research into these kind of things is really helpful. So one of my favourite books is It Didn't Stop Start with you by Mark Wallin. That's a really, really great book for understanding generational trauma in particular, because it really does talk about, okay, how is it that certain traumas or like, experiences translate itself physiologically for a lot of people. And I think there's a lot of signs that we often miss because they're not as obvious as certain behaviors like attachments or certain things that we do that we think are normal. I think it didn't start with you amongst a whole bunch of other books are really, really helpful for that. So I would definitely recommend that. I think also as a person of faith, your relationship with God is really helpful. Very, very helpful. Especially because it is often through drawing on that relationship that you can expose what's inside. And I think that the beauty of having a relationship with the Creator is that you, you don't have to hide. And there's so many of us that live a life where we have to hide because of the stereotypes, the tropes, because of the way that people see us. The only space where that really doesn't exist is with your creator. Your creator created you. There's nothing you can hide from God. He was with you when you experienced the trauma. He was with you when you manifested the trauma. He was. He knows everything about you. And to have a relationship with somebody that knows you, you that intricately, to have a relationship with somebody that actually has plans for you to prosper, to have a relationship with somebody that cares for you that deeply, that loves you like this, I think is one of, if not the most transformative way that we can overcome trauma. So really diving deep into that relationship with God, really asking him to help you uncover what are some of the experiences that I've had that have now translated into my behavior, translated into my psyche, even translated into certain things that I'm feeling in my body. There's even some aches that folks be feeling that's actually related to trauma. That backache girl, I don't know if that backache is because you're getting old. You like, 27. It might not be. It might not be that.
- [30:33]
Courtney
Holding onto some bitterness.
- [30:34]
Renee
You might be holding, you know, bitterness up back, bitterness beat. Oh, just give it alliteration. Let go of the bees, let go of the beads. So really like investing in that relationship with the Creator and understanding what, what God has to say about you and God has to say about your life and knowing that there is nothing that can separate you from him because I think sometimes trauma does that. It isolates us from other people, it separates us from other people. It makes us think that we're carrying this ugly thing. And I think it's very related to shame for a lot of black women too. We think that because especially for the traumas where things we haven't actually been the perpetrator but we've been the victim. Traumatic experiences can lead to shame which now make you think that ah, I'm carrying this ugly thing with me that I can't let go of. It's now become part of my identity.
- [31:27]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [31:28]
Renee
And.
- [31:31]
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- [32:34]
Renee
There is just something so beautiful about being able to key into what God who created you has to say about you. That supersedes anything that you have experienced, but also anything that you could experience in the future so that you actually have. You're building a mindset and a relationship that will stand not just to overcome but also to continue to overcome. Good, right? So that's how we get over are cyclical things. It's by training ourselves so not even necessarily because of past issues, overcoming the past issues, but training ourselves to be ready for the issues that we know will come later, later down the line, especially when trauma rears its ugly head again. So I think it's very, very important relationship with God, relationship with Jesus, really allowing him to continue to do that work of renewing your mind and renewing your heart heart and allowing the people that God brings Into your life as well to help you to do that.
- [33:31]
Courtney
Absolutely.
- [33:32]
Renee
Because it can be so easy to keep trauma and the experiences that you've had to your chest. It's so easy. It's so easy. And it's so tempting to present as well. Whether it be, you know, to be the best friend or to be the best wife or whatever. We think that trauma is a stain that prevents us from reaching these performative levels of relational excess excellence. Not realizing that these are the very things that will draw people closer to you.
- [33:57]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [33:57]
Renee
Knowing that, okay, you've gone through this, but now there's hope that this can be overcome because look at how far you've come, you know, or there may be somebody else that by sharing that experience that you went through, they similarly go, oh, I've actually experienced something similar to you. This has given me hope, too. Or maybe you're able to draw on the wisdom of somebody that's older than you, that's not just been through what you've been through through, but been through a heck of a lot more. And they're still standing and they're still doing well, and there's still joy in their heart, their hearts and their countenance. So I think there is something about drawing on the community that you have around you, Drawing on the people that God has brought in your midst as well. That not to say that it's their responsibility to heal your trauma, but they are people that have been gifted to you for a reason to help you to do that together. There's a togetherness in overcoming trauma that I just think cannot be understated whatsoever. Like, there have been some of my deepest, darkest times that I've not been able to overcome without a warm word from a friend. A warm word, an encouragement. Just like literally something from somebody. And I know we make light of it, like the whole banter around. Oh, all it took was just one yap with my friend or one coffee with my friend to remember that life was worth living. Eating BTC is actually okay. To draw on that, to enjoy people's company and allow that to draw. Draw you out of that dark place and continue to draw you out of that dark place. So investing in the relationships that you have around you, allowing your community to be a place, a safe space through which you'll be able to lay down your experiences, be you in your most authentic self, overcome the past, but then also have something that is. Is robust for the future, too. Yeah.
- [35:45]
Courtney
That's so good. That's so good. And I think the way you've explained it as well. Just reminds me of the fact that one healing is really about frameworks. And you can pass frameworks on generationally as well. Like, a lot of the generational wealth we hand down isn't just financial. It's also these frameworks and these mindsets and these approaches to life. And I think being able to pass down to a younger sister, a child, or just someone who represents the next generation in your world a framework of how to heal but also stay healed as well. Like, that's a huge tool and a big gift to be able to pass on to someone. Because life will throw you some curveballs. Life will birth some pain around you. But if you have a framework on how to heal, you'll be okay. Like, you'll actually survive. And that's something we can pass down, but first we have to do the work. And it's hard to do the work when you're the first one. It's hard to do the work when nobody passed that framework onto you. Right. You were actually in the structure of toxicity. But now you've got so many beautiful resources, as you highlighted. But I think another resource to some degree is digital community. Like, as much as we say, you know, parasocial relationships, and the Internet's not really a real place, I think for a lot of people, the Internet is the only safe place they have because that's the only space they get to actually be themselves or the only place they get access to some sound advice or just something that sounds very different to maybe what they're exposed to at home. Right. And so I think it's. It's good to see that collectively, there seems to be a generation of black women, of women, of people who are healing and sharing all of these resources on how to heal, and us kind of getting to tap into that and be like, okay, cool. As much as maybe no one around me is pursuing breakthrough, I can digitally connect to this sisterhood, to this group of people, to this platform, to join a whole bunch of people who have faith for their healing of some sort, whether it be physical, emotional, emotional, spiritual. And I love that you touched on the word shame, because I do think a lot of us carry shame around, and shame really does impact the way we navigate through this world and the way that we show up. And I really want us to talk about hustle culture, because I think a huge root of hustle culture is shame. Shame around not being as rich as anybody else, shame around being judged for the things that you do or don't have. And I Think a lot of us carry shame into our workplaces, shame into how we do business. And it affects the way that we do it. It affects and taints to some degree the results that we cultivate. And I do think it leads to burnout.
- [38:30]
Renee
Oh, boy.
- [38:31]
Courtney
Quickly. When you're working from a place of shame, you're gonna burn out very quickly. So I want you to unpack this relationship between shame and hustle, especially when we're thinking about going from survival mode to thriving.
- [38:45]
Renee
Yeah.
- [38:45]
Courtney
In the middle, I think, is a lot of work to be done, and a lot of it requires you to confront shame.
- [38:51]
Renee
Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. I think there's such a big link, and I think even seeing you just put your hand thriving and then surviving. The middle part is getting to baseline. Like, I think so many of us want to jump from a place of survival to thriving. But you can only thrive once you've actually established a baseline. You've established the safety, the basics. You've got everything down. And I think many of us are not even considering the basics, the things that we actually need to feel safe, to feel happy and okay. And I think shame. I love what you were saying around the fact that shame is connected to the things that we don't have or the things that we perceive that we don't have. Right, right. I think hustle culture is symptomatic of the fact that we're a restless society. Literally restless, as in we can't put our hands down. But we also find an inability to rest and find pleasure and joy in resting, despite the fact that we so desperately need it. And I think that especially for a lot of black women that have experienced lack in their lives, life, and are simultaneously, like, downtrodden for it, there's a lot of shame in dealing with the fact that you have lacked before or have experienced lack. There's a lot of shame in the fact that it's taking you a while to get to the place that you want to get to as well, despite the fact that you may have experienced multiple disadvantages at whatever point of your life. And then there's a lot of shame, especially when you don't match up to a yardstick that's so far beyond your experience or so far beyond where you're at that you are literally pressing yourself to the bone to thrive when you haven't even managed to get to the bare minimum. Basics, baseline. And so we need to stop feeling ashamed for the fact that these things have happened to us, and they have very much prevented us from Getting to a place of equal opportunity. We were having a discussion earlier on on around the difference between, like, equal opportunity, equal results, etc, dei, all of these things. And we shouldn't feel ashamed by the cards that we have been dealt. Right. And this is not to say like, oh, you know, black women shouldn't pull up their shoes by their bootstraps and all that kind of stuff. This is not to say that we should be lazy or like, you know, anything like that by any stretch of the imagination. But I do think that there needs to be a recognition and an appreciation of the fact that, that, you know, things have happened to you, things have been done to you. Yes, you may, you know, be starting with a disadvantage in some area and it's not just wholly on you, and you shouldn't feel ashamed of that fact. If anything, the fact that you are doing everything that you can to get yourself out of this situation, or at least you're thinking about it, is actually a big win. It's the first step. Yes, it's going to take you. Maybe it might take you a little bit longer, it might even take you a little bit less, but it doesn't depend on you burning yourself to the ground to get yourself out of a situation that for all intents and purposes, for the most part, you didn't place yourself there. You didn't place yourself there. You were born into this world as a black woman. You were born into that city. You know what I'm saying? It's not a crime to be a black woman. It's not a crime to have. You know, like, even when people talk about things like poverty and stuff like that, it's like, there's a shame, there's a stigma attached to it. You didn't choose.
- [42:13]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [42:13]
Renee
You know what I'm saying? It's reality. Or when somebody has experienced abuse, like, you didn't choose to be abused, abused, you were violated.
- [42:20]
Courtney
There we go.
- [42:21]
Renee
So there needs to be an appreciation, I think, contending with shame and recognizing that you have been violated in some way or something has happened to you. And yes, you want a different outcome for yourself. Yes, you want a different life for yourself, but it won't come from you effectually abusing yourself to get to that place. Because that's what hustle culture can lead to, to the abuse of self. I know we often talk about, like, boundaries and like saying no and all that kind of stuff to other people, but I think we also need to work on the boundaries we have for ourselves.
- [42:57]
Courtney
Good.
- [42:58]
Renee
No is a full sentence, not just for other people, but for you too, you need to learn to tell yourself no as well. You need to be your own advocate. I love the fact that you always say, like, you need to learn to advocate for yourself. And oftentimes you need to learn to advocate for yourself, to yourself. Because we can be our worst enemy. So, yes, we'll be hurling shame at ourselves. Yes, we'll be hurling all sorts of internal monologues. Yes, we'll be pushing ourselves just a little bit too hard because we haven't learned to honor ourselves, honor our limitations, honor our own boundaries and honor the fact that we didn't choose to find ourselves in this situation in the first place. And yet we're punishing ourselves for it. So for me, when you get to the extremes of hustle culture, it's self flagellation. You're literally punishing yourself for something that you didn't do.
- [43:45]
Courtney
Absolutely.
- [43:46]
Renee
And yes, you can say, oh, I'm ambitious, yes, I'm a go getter, yes, you know, I'm gunning for my dreams. You can use it as this neat rags to riches story and all of that kind of good stuff. Yes, that's inspiring. But what does it say about your values? What does it say about how much you love yourself, really? What does that say about your relationship with God? If you are pushing yourself beyond the limit again and again and again, do you really believe, like, first of all, do you believe in your own humanity? Because as humans, we actually need rest. It's a biological necessity. It's a biological necessity. And I am now too old and too grown to push past that biological necessity. I refuse to feel guilty for wanting sleep. I refuse to feel guilty for putting boundaries on my time. I refuse to feel guilty for feeding myself. Well, there, I'm sorry, there is nothing that will make me feel guilty about that at this present time in my life. Because I've been there too many times. I've been burnt out, I've been tired, I've been hustling and grinding. And where does it get you? At the bottom. It gets you at the bottom. You may be at the top of your career and your field, but your spirit, your happiness, your joy, your relationships, they suffer. Specifically your relationship with yourself. And so we as women, we really do need to get to a place where we let go of the fact that. Let go of this desire to punish ourselves in response to what has been done to us.
- [45:18]
Courtney
Good.
- [45:19]
Renee
Let's let go of that and let's start to see ourselves as our own advocates, as our own friend. Let's start to do that work internally. And I know we've spoken about this so many times, but even doing that work on that internal voice in your head, let's actually, you know, start to partner with the Holy Spirit. Let's start to rewrite our thinking. Let's start to honor our boundaries. Because there is a way to get to a place where the work that you're doing is sustainable, sustainable living. It's okay. And we don't realize that we're re perpetuating a lot of the things that are done to us when we don't say no.
- [45:58]
Courtney
Absolutely.
- [46:00]
Renee
So, yeah, that's what I think, friend. But I would love to hear your thoughts.
- [46:02]
Courtney
That is wonderful. That is wonderful. I think you've explained it really, really well. And shame is one of those topics that I constantly have to tussle with. Not just from my own personal experience, but I'm often asked about shame and how to overcome shame. And I think from various things that I've learned. And shame is really tough because shame tries to tell you about who you are and not just what you've been through. Yeah, it really. It changes your identity. Like, you're not just somebody who has gone through that. The fact that you went through that now means that you're unworthy of love. You are unlovable, you are damaged. Good. You can never be loved. You don't even deserve to love yourself. It's shame talks. Shame really does talk. And it coerces you into, like you're saying, violating your own boundaries but constantly trying to prove it wrong, which inevitably just makes you a slave to it even more Right. I think a lot of us are working from a place of shame, which illustrates, as you said, even when you then get to the top of your field, top of your A game, you know, you've gotten your fu money, You've done all of your accomplishments. You've proven that you're not the failure of your family. You're still a deep level of brokenness in you because you were fighting so hard to disprove that you weren't that because deep down you believe you are that. That's shame does to you. Deep down you believe you are the failure of the family. And now you're working so hard because you haven't rejected the title, but you feel as though you need to have the superficial things that represent that you are not that title. That's not necessarily leaving and putting down that thing that's not yours to carry. You're just carrying it with you and putting it in a really nice box. It's not you not carrying the title. Right. And so I think for a lot of us, us turning away from shame means I'm no longer even fighting to disprove this. I have completely disassociated from this like and not disassociation in the delusional sense. Disassociation as in that is not mine to carry. Right. I am not the runt of the litter in my family. I am not this overlooked last born or overlooked middle child I am cherished by. And I think this is why, why faith to me is so important. Because it gives you a new identity and that's exactly what Shane tries to rob from you. I love as well that you touched on this whole going from survival mode to thriving and having to find a baseline. I think a lot of us think that in order to like escape survival mode, we need to aim to go from 1 to 10 straight away.
- [48:37]
Renee
Yeah.
- [48:37]
Courtney
When actually no true sustainable growth, growth and evolution and abundance comes from going from 1 to 2 and 2 to 3 and celebrating every juncture on the way. But when you try to do an unsustainable thing like you know the big rags to riches story, actually the odds are against you. You put the odds against you. I know we're in the age of the Internet where you can get access to a lot of these amazing stories of people who have completely turned their lives around. But don't be deceived into thinking that that is the norm. It's actually not a lot of people who have turned their lives around have been turning and turning and turning. It's not one simple big turn from 1 to 100. It's a turn from 1 to 2 and then a turn from 2 to 3. You have to do the process. You have to take the steps. And I think a lot of us despise the steps because we don't celebrate the steps.
- [49:36]
Renee
Steps.
- [49:37]
Courtney
You are worth celebrating the fact you went from point one to point two.
- [49:41]
Renee
Yeah.
- [49:42]
Courtney
Celebrate that and then celebrate 0.2 to 0.3. And hey, if you jump from three to five, throw yourself a party. Do you know what I mean? But it's not just jumping from 1 to 10 that just deserves a woo. Like if you are going from unemployed, have never had a job and now you're fearful that you'll always be rejected. Celebrate when you send in that next application and the fact that you didn't allow fear to talk you out out. Celebrate when you got that interview even if you were rejected. I got an interview. I Got through that next day. It's big things. And these things reassure you that actually I am breaking free from that limiting belief. I am breaking free. And that I remember when I got my first order for my business and I celebrated so hard, not because that one wig was going to change my life, but because it was proof that what I was doing was actually working. And despite the fact that, you know, there were several people in my life who were like, you know, this whole business thing, you're a beautiful girl, smart girl, with a great degree from a great university. What are you doing going into business? And it's like that one order represented that, hey, all we have to do is another one of these. And if we've been able to do one, we could do another, and we could do another. And then you get to 100, and then you get to 100K. You know, that's how growth works. And you have to celebrate the things that represent to you that, hey, babe, you're going on the right track back. You're doing a good, good thing. And shame doesn't allow you to celebrate those small wins and those small milestones. And so I think one thing that black women really need to embrace is celebration. We really need to embrace the wins that we have. And I know so many people try to humble black women, but it's like, no, we need to shout even louder for the wins that we have because we've been used to losing and not because we ain't good. It's just because of the way the game rules are, you know, and so. And the way the game is rigged. And I think that right now we're in this beautiful turn where it's like, no, Black women are not only killing it, we're celebrating it. Yeah, we're shouting about it. We're clapping for it. We're giving women their flowers and we need to. To receive them. I think that heals something inside of you as well. It really does. And I love that emphasis you put on healing within community. But it's not every community you can heal in. Right. Like that part, I saw a TikTok of someone being like, you know, here I am. You can't break generational curses amongst cursed people. You have to leave the cursed people to break the curse. And I think sometimes it's reminding yourself, yourself that the reason why you feel crazy and like this curse breaking thing ain't working because you're around the curse.
- [52:27]
Renee
Do you know how funny that is? Break away.
- [52:29]
Courtney
Break away for a little bit. Go to a different city. Go somewhere for the weekend. Take a vacation amongst the. Read a different book. Just. Just do something that's different because it will teach you a different language. Right. Culture is a huge. Is mainly around linguistic lux. Like, well, there's different aspects of culture, but a huge aspect of culture is linguistics. And a lot of us pick up the language of limitation.
- [52:55]
Renee
Yeah.
- [52:55]
Courtney
So change the language you're exposed to.
- [52:57]
Renee
Right.
- [52:58]
Courtney
Like, let's go pick, pick and pick up a book. Pick up. Go and watch a film. Something that gives you language for the dream. Something that gives you language for the healing. Something that gives you language for. Okay, I can say something I can call what I went through trauma.
- [53:13]
Renee
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Courtney
Because I've learned that language.
- [53:15]
Renee
Right, Right.
- [53:15]
Courtney
It's not just something that happens to women in our family. It's not just a rite of passage for girls. It's not just tradition. It was abuse. I've learned language for what I've been through. You know, and so now we can work from there identifying things or even this word advocacy. Like, I've learned what it means to stick up for myself. And it not be called disrespect. It's actually called advocacy. Okay. So this is a thing that I have the right to do to protect myself and defend myself. This is great. Great. Language emboldens you. It empowers you. And I think a lot of us, and it's not about respectability, politics. It's not about grammar and eloquence. It's about knowing what your rights are.
- [53:57]
Renee
Yeah.
- [53:58]
Courtney
Right. And allowing yourself to pursue that.
- [54:00]
Renee
Beautiful.
- [54:01]
Courtney
And so I think for a lot of us, we need to celebrate. We need to be exposed to those who can help us see that freedom as possible and show us new methods and new ways to do things. And I think, think we're going to do a whole episode on strength and softness and embracing all of that. But I. I really want us to touch quickly on new methods for abundance. Right. Because I think a lot of us are used to the whole think and grow Rich.
- [54:29]
Renee
Rich.
- [54:30]
Courtney
Dad. Porsche. Dad. The only way I can break through from my generational curse is to make a million.
- [54:34]
Renee
Oh, Lord.
- [54:34]
Courtney
But what are the other. And I mean, we've touched on it here and there through this episode. Episode. But I want us to close out in sharing. What are the other ways we can measure that we have broken free from a generational pattern mindset or curse.
- [54:49]
Renee
That's so beautiful. I love that you touched on the fact that our mind often goes to money because we think of abundance in terms of money. But I think I would challenge women to think of abundance in other areas that they would like to see abundance of time. I think that time is a thing that is often robbed from us and we need to reclaim our time. Whether it be finding a way to have your slow mornings, whether it be finding a way to have some time to yourself during the day that's very, very hectic. I think hustle culture is very problematic in that it robs us of our time. Our time now becomes a commodity in which we now have to capitalize. But understanding that there is an abundance in time in being able to pursue the things that you enjoy. So I think even that, like on that, one of the ways in which I would challenge women, especially this week, those of you that are listening to this episode, where are the areas in my life that I would like to see abundance? So time is a big one for me personally. I think relationships as well is a big one for a lot of us, especially those of us that are very like independent or we are inclined toward independence. What are the ways that we can reclaim abundance in our relationships? Perhaps it looks like doing relationships a little bit differently and practicing that. Right. So rather than going for, you know, coffee catch ups and stuff like that that we often formulate coffee catch ups, maybe it is going to the escape rooms. Maybe it is doing something differently and challenging yourself to spending time with somebody that you love differently. Getting to know about what are the things that you enjoy. I think doing a self diagnostic is always really, really helpful. I think so many of us are wired to think about other people and wired to think about other people's desires. I think, I think a self diagnostic of what is it that I actually like. And that might take its time. I remember when I first did it, I almost was shocked at how much I felt like I had lost myself in that I couldn't really articulate. Okay, what are Renee's likes and dislikes? What are the things that bring Renee joy? What are the things that annoy Renee? Who are the people that she really loves? How are the ways that she can. How can she now invest in this relationship? Do a self diagnostic this week and try to pick out what are the things that you like and dislike and how can you make room for the things that bring you joy in your life? If it's just money, I would urge you to reconsider and think about. Okay, cool. Beyond money. It's not even money. It's what we think money can bring us. So what are the things that you are hinging upon? You making more money that, you know, would allow you to have what it is that you want. Right. So a lot of us, it might be like the material things, but is it really that we want, you know, the latest like tech gadgets and gizmos and all of that kind of stuff. Is it that we really want that or is it that we want external validation? Ah, there's a hole there around relationships that can probably be filled by touching grass and, you know, being invested in the people that you have around you. Is it that, oh, I really want money so I can invest in like my beauty maintenance etc. Okay, I hear you, but do you really. Is it only when you are making a certain amount of money that you're now investing in your well being around like your skin care or, you know, your beauty and stuff like that? There's things that you can learn to do that boy might bring you so much joy. There's face masks that you can do as well whilst you're watching television that can bring you joy. Superdrug boots, Sephora, all of these places have affordable things. And it's not even necessarily the material thing, but it's the practice of taking care of yourself that you might need to prioritize.
- [58:23]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [58:24]
Renee
So really understanding. Okay, cool. What are the things that actually bring me joy that I have now attached with this old way of thinking? Or like I'm thinking that the route to get these things is money when really I can try so many different ways or different things now that I've identified what's at the core of my desire to still achieve. Achieve that similar result.
- [58:47]
Courtney
Yeah.
- [58:48]
Renee
If it is that, oh, I really want to go to all of these really nice fancy restaurants and all that kind of stuff. Is it the fancy. Is it really Nobu that you want to really, really hack a sound? Yeah, you can just, you know, every now and again, dinner time, you turn down the lights to low exposure a little bit so you can create the atmosphere that you're looking for. You can put on something. Sometimes it is and I go hold you. You know, I go hold you. But even those kind of things can be built in with a little bit of rejigging and reprioritization. Me, I'm different. I'm the kind of person that I always go to a place and I'm like, can I make this? And if I find a place that I can't make it, I'm like, wow, I've actually like, you know, I've really achieved something in life. That's hilarious. But I wouldn't have known that if I didn't sit down and explore that, I wouldn't have known that. Okay, cool. I actually do enjoy, like, making. Making stuff for people or I love the process of learning, like a lot of us. Yeah. Is it necessarily that you need this experience or is it that you actually love the process of learning? Can you learn in different ways? So I think it is identifying what is it that brings you joy? What are alternative ways in which you can still get that joy or still access that joy that isn't contingent on you burning yourself out, that isn't contingent on you. You trying to make a boatload of money that isn't contingent on you violating your own boundaries. It's all about sustainable living. I did not intend to sound like a Green Party member, but I think sustainability is important. It's so important. And the key word here is sustainable sustain. It means a thing that you can have over an extended period of time. And we spend so much of our lives chasing things that we think will bring us happy happiness, only to get there and feel hollow and empty because we've misdiagnosed or we have completely missed what it is that we're actually looking for. So if you can nail that first part, what is it that you actually want behind the material stuff, behind the things that previous generations or people around you have associated with success? If you can nail what it is that actually brings you joy and find ways to do that in a sustainable fashion, you are living the best life you possibly could.
- [60:57]
Courtney
Absolutely. That is so good. I think the only thing I would add to that is peace. Like, peace is a really key sign of abundance, but also contentment. Like, I'm actually content with what I have or the life that I live. And peace is costly. Peace is expensive. Peace. You don't want anyone around you who will really disturb that. And I think it's making sure that you're keyed into. Okay, yes, I may be living in my dream, but am I at peace? Do I have peace? I may be living in my dream home, but do I have have peace? I may now have made a lot of money, but do I have peace that it will remain like this? Do I have peace that even if things change, I'm okay, You know? And I think a huge, huge thing about peace is the mental noise that a lot of us have surrounding our lives. There's this constant voice of insecurity. And like you were saying at the top of this episode, scarcity, which is, even though you've reached your dreams, it won't always be like this.
- [61:56]
Renee
Yeah.
- [61:57]
Courtney
Or you've reached, you know, the type of relationships you want. They won't always be there for you. Things could change. It's insecurity, it's doubt, it's shame. It's all these things that can be noises in our mind. Clear the noise and you'll find the peace. And I think it's not just about having the things. It's about having the security that actually some security money cannot provide. Sometimes it's just, God, I trust you, or, okay, I'm walking in my path, and no matter what happens, I will be okay, because I'm walking in my path.
- [62:33]
Renee
Yeah.
- [62:34]
Courtney
And things will work out for my good, ultimately. And I think having that level of peace means that no matter what happens in life, because the thing about happiness is it's dependent on happenings. It depends on things. Things happening. And so no matter what happens, I have peace, I have joy, I have things which are very unshakable. And these are things that can be transferred. I'm sure a lot of our lives would have been different if we grew up in houses that were filled with peace. Right? That no matter what was happening, there was peace. And so I think such a piece, man.
- [63:11]
Renee
Oh, my Lord, that's such a good piece. Find peace and prosper.
- [63:15]
Courtney
Peace. It's a beautiful thing. Tranquility and peace.
- [63:18]
Renee
Wow, Tranquility. I heard that word.
- [63:22]
Courtney
And you can create that space wherever you are. But, yeah, sis, we hope that you've enjoyed this episode. We hope that this has been peaceful for you. And I understand also that it may have been triggering. So if that was. We do always have the link to better help down below. We know not everybody loves better help and we completely understand why. But for some people, people it is the only option they have for affordable therapy and counseling. So if it is something that you want to check out to actually pick a counselor that will work for you and your individual journey, please check out betterhelp in the description. This episode is not sponsored. But yeah, just check it out and see if it could work for you. And the sisterhood is also there if you ever want to pray, if you ever want just a community of people who are pursuing healing, healing, have achieved healing, are going through the different cycles of healing, and definitely join the sisterhood. You can join on our website to my sisters.com and make sure that you are following us across all social media to stay tapped into what we are doing as a collective. You can follow us O my sisterhood literally everywhere on the Internet. I'M being serious about that. And you can also follow us individually. You can follow my My Bestie in Blue at Renee Kapuku and you can follow me at cdbuate.
- [64:38]
Renee
Amazing. And if you would like a weekly love letter from your sisters truly, make sure you sign up to our mailing list over at www.tomysisters.com and also keep your eyes peeled for events and fun happenings and all that kind of good stuff. It may not be the root of your happiness, but we can bring you a little bit of joy from the happenings. Come to the TMS happenings. We'd love that. We'd love that. Anyway, sisters, we'd love to hear your thoughts, so please keep them coming down below in the comments. But until next week, we are going to leave you. Please don't die without us. We enjoy your week anyway, sisters, as.
- [65:16]
Courtney
Always, keep glowing and growing. Love you.
- [65:36]
Renee
G'day America.
- [65:38]
Courtney
It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony.
- [65:39]
Renee
And Ryan Podcast from Down Under. This episode is sponsored by Boost Mobile, the newest 5G network in the country. These guys are no longer the prepaid.
- [65:47]
Courtney
Wireless company you might remember. They've improved invested billions into building their.
- [65:52]
Renee
Own 5G towers across America, transforming the.
- [65:55]
Courtney
Carrier into America's fourth major network alongside the other big dogs.
- [66:00]
Renee
Yep, they're challenging the competitors by working harder and smarter, like this amazing new network they've literally built. They have blazing fast 5G and plans for all the latest devices. Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online@boostmobile.com.