"I Can Believe in God & Equality!": Navigating Faith & Feminism

Summary

Podcast Summary: “I Can Believe in God & Equality!: Navigating Faith & Feminism”

Podcast Information:

• Title: To My Sisters
• Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
• Episode: "I Can Believe in God & Equality!": Navigating Faith & Feminism
• Release Date: July 27, 2025
• Description: Hosted by Courtney and Renée, the podcast "To My Sisters" explores the complexities of adulthood, sisterhood, and holistic wellness, fostering growth and development within a global community of sisters.

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1. Introduction and Context

The episode begins with a brief advertisement segment promoting Boost Mobile's new iPhone deal. After the ads, Courtney and Renée introduce themselves and the podcast's mission, setting the stage for today's deep dive into the intersection of faith and feminism.

Key Points:

• Hosts' Mission: "Promoting the wellness, growth, and development of a community of sisters around the world." ([01:19])
• Today's Topic: Exploring whether one can simultaneously believe in religion and advocate for gender equality.

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2. Listener Dilemma: Balancing Traditional Expectations and Personal Choices

A listener shares her struggle with convincing her African mother that she is content without pursuing marriage and motherhood. At 29, she enjoys a quiet life and is contemplating whether parenting is right for her, especially after recovering from the pressures of being raised with multiple siblings.

Listener's Concern:

• Quote: "My mother has a very traditional background and believes that marriage and children are the only things that will make me happy and fulfilled." ([04:25])

Hosts' Response:

• Renée: Empathizes with the listener, acknowledging the generational shift questioning traditional femininity's link to happiness. ([04:53])
  • Advice: Encourage patience and gradual conversations to demonstrate personal contentment beyond societal expectations.
• Courtney: Agrees and emphasizes that it's not the listener's responsibility to completely change her mother's mindset. Suggests focusing on other achievements to shift her mother's perspective. ([11:14])
  • Strategy: "Take her on this journey with you... Let her know, 'I'm thinking, I'm trying to process, I'm trying to decide...'" ([11:14])

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3. Main Discussion: Navigating the Tension Between Faith and Feminism

a. Origins of Tension

The hosts delve into why there seems to be an inherent conflict between religion and feminism. Renee attributes this tension to differences in interpretation and expression of both faith and feminist ideals.

• Renee: Highlights that both movements have been historically interpreted in patriarchal ways, leading to misunderstandings. "Feminism, at its core, is about advocacy for equality, but misinterpretations have painted it as anti-men." ([15:28])

• Courtney: Emphasizes that feminism originated not in opposition to religion but as a movement for equality. "Feminism is a political ideology, not a rebellious movement against faith." ([26:20])

b. Extremes Within Movements

Both feminism and religion have extreme factions that often overshadow their foundational values, exacerbating tensions.

• Renee: Points out that radical interpretations on both sides lead to conflicts, comparing it to "fighting fire with fire, both sides get burned." ([18:59])

• Courtney: Notes that extreme feminists sometimes push for the eradication of men, which clashes with religious teachings that honor both genders. "If feminism in the West is seen as too radical, it's often a misinterpretation." ([25:26])

c. Shared Values and Misalignments

Despite apparent conflicts, both faith and feminism fundamentally value human dignity and equality.

• Courtney: "Feminism speaks to the inherent value of women, just as Christianity speaks to the inherent value of all humans." ([19:00])

• Renee: "God loves women... Feminism restores the agency that women should have." ([15:28])

d. Personal Experiences Highlighting Tensions

The hosts share their personal encounters where their faith and feminist outlooks collide.

• Renee: Discusses double standards in Christian communities, particularly around sexual purity, where women often face harsher consequences than men. "I have seen women being ostracized for sexual impurity, while men in leadership positions face no accountability." ([33:04])

• Courtney: Reflects on being labeled "too aggressive" in religious settings due to her strong opinions, highlighting the struggle to express her multifaceted identity. "Being opinionated makes people uncomfortable in some religious spaces." ([43:59])

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4. Strategies for Reconciliation and Personal Growth

a. Cultivating Nuanced Beliefs

Both hosts advocate for developing personal beliefs that transcend the extremes of faith and feminism, encouraging critical thinking and self-reflection.

• Renée: "Don't be afraid of challenging... Challenge and be curious enough to challenge." ([52:43])

• Courtney: "Remember that God can handle those questions. Don't sweep them to the side." ([59:03])

b. Emphasizing Critical Thinking and Discipleship

Engaging in critical thinking and seeking accountability through discipleship can help navigate the complex interplay between faith and feminism.

• Courtney: "Engage with environments where people challenge you and hold you accountable." ([57:10])

• Renée: "Develop a strong opinion by weighing up what resonates with you and aligns with your understanding of the Bible." ([57:10])

c. Balancing Spiritual and Political Identities

The hosts emphasize that it's possible to maintain spiritual grounding while actively participating in feminist advocacy, highlighting that both realms can complement rather than contradict each other.

• Renée: "Feminism addresses human rights issues that are also aligned with many religious values." ([32:01])

• Courtney: "Christianity is about us exercising our personal responsibility to get to know God more personally, which includes understanding gender equality." ([59:03])

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5. Insights and Conclusions

The episode concludes with the hosts encouraging listeners to embrace the complexities of integrating faith and feminism. They advocate for ongoing dialogue, personal exploration, and maintaining respectful relationships despite differing viewpoints.

Key Takeaways:

• Patience and Grace: Building understanding between differing cultural and generational perspectives takes time. "Rome was not built in a day, and neither were our African mothers." ([04:53])
• Embracing Multifaceted Identities: Women can hold multiple roles and identities without compromising their values. "You are allowed to be a multifaceted woman... God is happy with your diverse roles." ([46:27])
• Continuous Learning: Encouraging a mindset of perpetual learning and questioning to align personal beliefs with both faith and feminist principles. "Be proactive in reconciling some of the questions that you might have." ([60:22])

Final Encouragement: Courtney and Renée urge listeners to initiate conversations within their communities, fostering environments where faith and feminism can coexist harmoniously. They emphasize the importance of shared values, mutual understanding, and the collective pursuit of justice and equality.

• Courtney: "We hope that this conversation has been interesting... Maybe it's been more so a conversation starter for you." ([66:16])
• Renee: "Building that baseline of fundamental conviction starts with discipleship... engage with your journey." ([57:10])

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Renée: "Oh, and I think we're definitely amidst a generation where a lot of us are actually questioning, do I want to be a parent?" ([00:40])
• Courtney: "Rome was not built in a day, and neither were our African mothers." ([04:53])
• Renée: "Feminism restores the agency that women should have." ([15:28])
• Courtney: "Feminism is a political ideology, not a rebellious movement against faith." ([26:20])
• Renée: "Don't be afraid of challenging... Challenge and be curious enough to challenge." ([52:43])
• Courtney: "Remember that God can handle those questions. Don't sweep them to the side." ([59:03])

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Conclusion

This episode of "To My Sisters" offers a profound exploration of how faith and feminism intersect and sometimes clash within women's lives. Through empathetic listener support and insightful discussions, Courtney and Renée provide valuable perspectives on reconciling traditional beliefs with modern feminist ideals. The conversation encourages women to cultivate their unique identities, engage in critical thinking, and foster respectful dialogues that honor both their spiritual and feminist commitments.

For more insightful discussions and to join the sisterhood community, follow Courtney and Renée on their social media platforms and subscribe to the "To My Sisters" podcast.

Transcript

[Renee]

Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile. We pulled so many all nighters to give you this deal. And hey, stop messing with the mic.

[Courtney]

I'm just helping this catch people's attention. This is a great deal.

[Renee]

Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.

[Courtney]

Fine.

[Renee]

Head to your nearest Boost mobile store right now.

[Courtney]

Visit your nearest Boost mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply. Faith and feminism, whether you can believe in religion and the equality of the sexes.

[Renee]

Oh, and I think we're definitely amidst a generation where a lot of us are actually questioning, do I want to be a parent?

[Courtney]

There is extremities in religions, there is extremities in feminism.

[Renee]

These very traditional things that we often ascribe femininity with as being the apex of happiness and contentment.

[Courtney]

I find myself in certain religious spaces and they're like, you know, all the feminists just ruining society. And I'm like, well, hold on, cuz they be rolling their.

[Renee]

They be rolling their name.

[Courtney]

First of all.

[Renee]

Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.

[Courtney]

And I'm Courtney and we are your online sisters and hosts of the 2 My Sisters podcast.

[Renee]

Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters around the world.

[Courtney]

And in today's conversation, we are going to be talking about festival faith and feminism, whether you can believe in religion and the equality of the sexes.

[Renee]

Oh.

[Courtney]

Now the reason why I wanted to talk about this is because I think it is a. I wouldn't say dichotomy because I, I believe to start this off, that the two can exist. And I think you too.

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[Courtney]

But it has been attention.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

I think throughout my entire life and yourself in terms of being people who are very much interested in politics, very socially aware, spiritual, very, very big on social justice, equality, who are studied into these things, but then also being Christians. And I know for a lot of the sisters listening, whether you are of a, I guess, traditional Abrahamic faith or any other kind of spiritual belief that may be anchored in a patriarchal history or lineage, it may have been a tension that may have arisen for you as well, depending on what your religious culture kind of is still standing up for women's rights and equality, whilst also flying the flag of your belief, your religious belief may be something that you have wrestled with or maybe been led to believe that you cannot do. And so I wanted us to Delve into this conversation to explore those tensions, how we actually find our own values and our own beliefs, but also whether those tensions are somewhat valid as well. So, yeah, it's set to be a very interesting, juicy episode, and, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. It's going to be gonna be one of them ones. And, sisters, we want to hear you chime in, in the comments, just more generally, share your thoughts as we go along. You can do so on YouTube, on Spotify, because we want to hear from you. But before we delve into the conversation, are there any housekeeping announcements?

[Renee]

Housekeeping. Housekeeping. I think. No, I think we've swept the house. Just make sure that you're continuing to support us on all of our platforms. Make sure that you are keyed into the mailing list because there should be some very important announcements around some live events that are happening around, you know, this time.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So just keep your eyes peeled. If there are any tickets left for various events, then I would advise you at this critical juncture to collect yours.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Be sure to actually sign, not just sign up to the main list, but check the description box.

[Renee]

Yes.

[Courtney]

Because we record these episodes in advance just for now while we're getting things sorted out. So sometimes we might have announced something and it's only been announced maybe on other social platforms. So the YouTube community tab, or it's included in the description. So please check out the show notes, check out the description. If there is an event that is coming up, you will see the tickets there. The link to get your ticket will be there. So check it out. All right, well, without further ado, let's jump into a ding, ding, ding dilemma. Hey, sisters, thank you for creating this platform and love the work you all do. Now into my dilemma. I love want to know what to do to convince my African mother that I am content with or without marriage. I'm 29 and I am loving my quiet life. And I sometimes wonder if parenting is for me, especially because I'm recovering from the African daughter raising every other sibling child phase. And I do believe that I have healed a lot. But I'm like asking God, is this for me, marriage and all the works and having children? My mother has a very traditional background and believes that marriage and children are the only things that will make me happy and fulfilled. And please help, exclamation mark.

[Renee]

That's so real heavy on the African traditional background and, you know, recovering from parenting in, you know, parentification and all that kind of jazz. So, sis, I feel you and I'm Sure. A whole bunch of us sisters that are listening in feel you. And I think we're definitely amidst a generation where a lot of us are actually questioning, do I want to be a parent? These very traditional things that we often ascribe femininity with as being the apex of happiness and contentment, we're starting to question a lot. So kudos to you for actually going on that healing journey. I do think that this is a journey that is ongoing, especially because you still have questions. So as you're kind of thinking, ah, is this for me? And also making peace of the fact that it might not be for you, I think you're in a really good place. So, firstly, congratulations, sis, for getting to a place where you can genuinely say, actually, I feel like I would be fine with or without this in my life. That's a important and beautiful place to be in, especially in today's society where the reality is less of us are getting married, less of us are, you know, entering into relationships that then lead to having kids. And that's perfectly normal, too. That's fine. In terms of interacting with your mom, this one can be a challenging one. I think that this is not to excuse, like, no one is saying that your mother is toxic or anything like that, but she comes from a different kind of culture where a lot of power and your capacity to move through society easily is actually through your proximity to a lot of the things that you mentioned. Through getting married, through. Through having kids, a lot of women are afforded the social capital to move around freely. And so I think we can comfortably at least assume that this is probably coming from a good place, like most moms want the best for their daughters, and sometimes it can be very narrow because that's the only place in which they have seen women thrive and shine and, you know, be happy and content. And I won't say that it's your responsibility to completely transform your mother's mind. Not at all. I think we can sometimes burden ourselves, or put it upon our ourselves to try and change the minds and hearts of people around us. We can sow the seeds, but sometimes we actually have to, you know, it's hands off. And this is actually the reality. Not to say that your mom can't change, but if this is something that, you know, she has been brought up in culturally, then it's reasonable to then believe that this shouldn't actually be a responsibility to change something that's so culturally rooted and culturally defined for your mother. That said, that should not hamper your happiness, and it may affect your relationship, but it doesn't necessarily, necessarily mean that relationship has to be shut down. It can be through the smaller conversations where you demonstrate to your mom that actually I'm pretty content and divert her attention to the other achievements or things that are bringing you contentment and happiness at the end of the day. For most parents, they just want their children to be happy and content in life. And it just so happens that right now your mother's ideal of my child being happy and moving through the world, well, is through marriage and children and so trying to actively, you know, even spend time with your mom. You haven't really mentioned too tough about what your relationship is like with your mother, but you did mention that you're 29, so you're a bit older, which means that you can spend time with your mom, doing things with her, potentially spending time with her, having some of those more grown up chats where you kind of even clue her into what society is like right now. I think that for a lot of our parents from the last generation and potentially growing up in our diasporic countries, a completely different landscape to what life is like right now. I remember, you know, having lots of conversations with, you know, my parents, my aunties and like cluing them into this society is not the same society that you guys grew up in. As much as you love to tell the tales of you, you know, meeting your spouse when you guys were 18 and getting married and buying your house, society is not like that no more. And sometimes it takes a while for that narrative or that reality to really permeate for a lot of our parents. So take your time, be patient and have grace for not just your mother, but also yourself as you navigate this time and take your time with it as well. Again, this is not about you justif justifying your existence. This is more so about you really starting to invest in your, you and your relationship with your mother at this critical juncture and taking the time to really help her to understand that one, you actually are content. And two, there's so many other ways to find contentment for women in this particular society than is, you know, traditionally expected. And sis, kudos to you for like still thinking about it as a possibility. I think that we're again in a generation where a lot of us are thinking about is this actually for me? And that's where we actually need to be when we are making quite serious life decisions, is this actually for me, would I make a good parent? Whatever that means, am I ready for marriage? And whilst we are, we may Be content with where we're at. If you do, later down the line, decide actually, this is a desire that I have in my heart. It's also okay to nurture that a little later down the line, too. So don't feel pressured to make a decision on that. Off the cuff immediately. Of course, there's biological realities around, you know, having kids at certain ages and all that kind of stuff, but we're seeing more and more that the general trend within society in general is it's actually okay for you to think about it a little bit more. Take your time. If you feel that this is not for you, that's also perfectly okay. If you do feel later down the line that it is for you, that is okay too. And just affirm yourself with the fact that you've actually reached a place where you can live a full and content life without a lot of the things that society beleaguers upon us to make us feel happy and contented within our life. So, sis, I'm sending lots of love. Take your time with it. Rome was not built in a day, and neither were our African mothers. And so it's going to take a little bit of time to sow the seeds of conversation and get to a place where you two can have that kind of relationship. And I would definitely have hope that it can happen. I know that for us, even in our relationship with our mothers, there's certain things that they did not agree with in the beginning or certain ideals that they had for us. And over time, eventually they softened when they could see that, you know, different environments beget different outputs. So take your time with it. Plant those seeds and continue to live a content and full life that is not completely centering a lot of the things that society tells us our happiness can be attributed to. Yeah, that's what I would say, but would love to hear what you have to say.

[Courtney]

I completely agree with you. I don't think I have much to add. I think it's not your job to convince your mother, but I do think you can bring your mother on the journey. She doesn't necessarily have to agree with you. And I think that's what convincing kind of insinuates. Like you, you're trying to get her to be on your side. As you said, Rome was not built in a day and neither was your African mother. These are beliefs and traditions and culture that are deeply entrenched in the values that she carries. And it doesn't make her wrong and it doesn't make her bad, but it means that it might be hard for her mind to change and to come around to what it is that you are saying. And that's okay as well. She's learning, she's progressing, she's trying to understand and not to say that it will always be expressed in the most healthy way. And you are going to unfortunately, have to contend with that at some point. Just because anyone, even ourselves, as progressive and as educated as we think, when somebody brings something to you that goes against what you believe and how you see the world, it can be just quite challenging and so kind of progress with your mother, if you can, if she's amicable and if everything is, you know, as much as it might be uncomfortable, there might be some tension. If things can still progress between your relationship, I think take her on this journey with you. Because like you said, and like you said, in the dilemma, your mind isn't completely made up. And that's fine because you're also learning, you're also evolving. And 29 girl, the option is not closed to you to one day decide, like, oh, okay, I actually do want to get married and I do actually want to have children in whatever way that happens. And so it's taking her on that journey and letting her know. I wouldn't say it's giving her hope that, hey, my mind might change because then African mothers can latch onto that and run with it. I think it's more so letting her know, like, hey, Mom, I'm. I'm thinking, I'm trying to process, I'm trying to decide because I know this is a really big decision for me and I don't want to rush into something that doesn't end up being the best for me. And hopefully she will understand that. But it is not your job to make her agree. I pray that she gives you her understanding, though. I pray that she gives you a degree of patience and allows you to kind of go on this journey for yourself as well. Like, and then if she still pesters you, tell her to direct her attention to your other siblings. It sound like you have some. So just tell her, oh, my sister, my brother there, if you want grandchildren, go and tap, tap, tap on their door, focus on them. Just because right now I'm just not in the best place to talk about that or I don't want to talk about that with you. Especially if it's going to lead to conversations that make you feel uncomfortable or make you feel upset or. I think in a lot of our cultures, value can be so tied to these things that sometimes when you are Telling people you don't want that they somehow find a way to insinuate you're not valuable or it's going to hurt your social standing. And that can actually be extremely triggering and extremely hard to hear. So if it is that the conversation does become, you know, a bit unfortunate, then I would say it's okay to draw a boundary and take a bit of a step back in some way that's not going. No contact. We hear boundaries and we hear, I don't want to speak to you anymore, but it's just maybe I don't want to talk about this topic with you in isolation or in this present moment. And it's okay to draw those lines as well. But hopefully your mother's response will be on the more positive side where she understands that you are going on a journey with your thinking, and she can journey with you in that direction if she wants to as well. So all the best with your decisions and your future as well, and with your relationship with your mom. Because, yeah, these things can actually help bring us closer to our mums in some way. Sometimes the thoughts that we have about them, actually, they demystify it a bit and they disprove them. And then sometimes they live right up to them and it's okay. It's all right. We go on a new journey. So wishing you all the best, praying for the best for you, and hopefully all of this leads to a healthy, happy future for you. Okay, so, sisters, we hope that you enjoyed that dilemma. Hopefully you can chime in down below in the comments. What should our good sis do? And without further ado, let's get into the conversation on faith and faith feminism. So the first question I wanted to ask is, why do you think that this tension seemingly exists between religion and feminism?

[Renee]

That's a great opening conversation, child. The worms coming all out. I think a couple of different things. So the first thing that came to mind for me is interpretation and expression. The way that we conceive of feminism and our faith and the way that these things are interpreted and then express, expressed, can often be the foundation for misunderstanding and the foundation for quite staunch opposition to the other. So I'll start with faith, because faith preceded feminism as a movement or whatnot. And. And being Christians, one of the biggest charges that we often get is, how can you be a Christian if it's such a patriarchal religion? It doesn't look on women, you know, well, and all of that kind of stuff. And that's down to interpretation and expression. If we look at the Bible and Look at the examples of women and womenhood. When we look at our chief architect, Jesus Christ, and the way that he actually related to women, that in of itself speaks to the fact that God loves women. Like when we even think of. And you've spoken about this at length, not just in, obviously the podcast, but also just in general the express. The mere expression of us as female is also the expression of us as God. Like the image of God is very much in the image of female. And that needs to be honored. That also needs to be upheld. And it's just unfortunate that through time, through history, there has been a melding of faith, spirituality, and culture in which the value of women has now been defaced and desecrated as a result of social patriarchy, as opposed to spiritual patriarchy, which is one that upholds women, one that honors women, one that looks at women as having a very important place within society, whereas cultural patriarchy is very much manifest of the fallen nature of human beings where women are, you know, we're debased. We are seen as inferior. We are seen as the weaker sex, but we are seen as the weaker sex in the negative sense of the term, as opposed to something that actually needs to be protected and upheld. And so because of that interpretation of the faith and then the expression of womanhood in that way, across time in history, we have seen again and again where women in supposedly Christian settings have been disrespected, we have been deplatformed, we have had our voices robbed from us. Despite the fact that God loves women, like God is expressed in women, God loves women. And then when we look at something like feminism, it always shocks me a little. Well, not shocks me, but I'm always a little bit surprised when people are like, ah, I'm not a feminist. I don't believe in that. And I'm like, oh, but the like feminism, the word, the baseline word means you believe in advocacy for the equality of the sexes. Nothing more like just, I believe that women should have rights at the baseline. Where feminism gets a bad rap as well is again in interpretation and expression. It's the interpretation of feminism and equal rights to mean a very specific thing, as opposed to being a movement which started with the intention to restore the agency that women should have. And so again, human interpretation and then expression, which in response to centuries of oppression that has legitimately been expressed, experienced by women. And oftentimes in faith circles, unfortunately, whenever we're fighting fire with fire, both sides get burned.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And both sides tend to go to the extreme. So you got gasoline on one side, you got kerosene on the other side. It's just grease fires everywhere. All that kind of somebody's frying chicken in the back. Like, it's just grease fires everywhere. And so now you have certain ideologies that have cropped up under feminism which speak to the radical oppression that has also been felt by women. So it's the. We fight radical with radical. We, you know, are feminists, but we also believe that women should be superior to men or, you know, women should not be relegated to the home. They should be able, they should act actively, be outside working. This is what agency as a woman looks like, as opposed to feminism being about restoring power to women to be able to make the choice and free will. And it's very funny because drawing the parallels between feminism and faith at the baseline, both speak to the inherent value of humanity, right? Like Christianity speaks to the fact that we are all valuable because we are all God's children. We are all capable of experiencing salvation. We all have a calling. We are all mandated to seek ye first, the kingdom of God. We are all included in the plural man. When the Bible speaks of man. When we look at feminism, again, the inherent value of women, like women should have access to. Not necessarily they have to, but they should have access to an education. Women should have access to being able to, you know, make money and actually make wages and be able to do things, you know, as they've been called to in many ways. You know, we see so many examples of this in the Bible as well. People love to bring out, you know, the Esthers, the Ruth's, the Naomi, the Debras. Like these are all past examples of women that we're empowered to do. Exactly. In some ways, what feminism actually described. Being empowered to be judges, to be, you know, prophetesses and leaders, thought leaders, all of that kind of good stuff. And it's just unfortunate that we've gotten to a place where in many ways our faith, but also our radical political ideologies and expressions. Because I think it's so problematic to just brush feminism in the same way as faith, as this radical movement, because it does so much damage to all of the incredible women that have actively been fighting for women's rights. Like we couldn't vote. Yeah, I'm saying, like we couldn't vote, ladies. Like, I know that we're currently on the hill of conservatism right now. It's giving right wing at the moment. It's giving trad agenda with a trad wife and all that kind of stuff. Stuff. But realistically, we couldn't vote. We couldn't. All this little. Even the whole tread wife. Y' all got a job, you're a content creator. You mentioned this before. Like, you have a job, you're making money. We used to not be able to do that. We used to not be able to get divorces at all. That had to be. Literally, the person that you're married to was the one that would mandate a divorce. Even though even in the Bible it says there's two reasons why, you know, divorce, adultery and death. So even in the adultery case, you still with that man, you know what I'm saying? Like, you still with that cheating, cheating mofo, that cheating deadbeat. And so we cannot, I think it's so, so problematic and very, very damaging to brush feminism as this one stroke radical, we hate men type movement. Because feminism, for all intents and purposes, has actually saved a lot of women's lives.

[Courtney]

And it's currently saved and it's currently.

[Renee]

Think about domestic violence. Think about, like even. This is not to pathologize men, but when we think about the amount of violent crime that is, that happens in the world specifically towards women, but even towards men, the majority is done actually towards by. By men. The majority of violent crime perpetrators are actually men. And so when we have systems which simply uphold men, women fly under the radar as victims. There is no nothing in the law. Like, even when I think about basic laws, like not just being able to vote, but things like date rape.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Things like marital rape, things like sexual assault. Like, a lot of these things were not enshrined in law because of patriarchy.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And it was because of people that believed in the equality of the sexes that now freedoms afforded in law are actually realistic and real. I'm sure we'll get to you, like, within the conversation a little bit more about, like, okay, there's radical strains of both. You know, there's the traditional staunch conservative, overall wearing type of folk that really believe women should not even breathe in the same place as a man. And then we also have, you know, the very radical feminist that don't even want to hear a man, you know, utter his Alphabet in her presence. But this is really as a result of interpretation and expression. And we need to be careful that we don't demonize both people of faith, but also people of feminism.

[Courtney]

Because.

[Renee]

Because there's so much that can be gleaned from both. And the two can coexist. Yes, there does need to be structure. Yes, there does need to be you know, some groundwork. Yes. There is potential, like, with any movement for it to become something that's inadvertently used by the enemy. Faith and feminine and feminism can be weaponized by the enemy.

[Courtney]

Absolutely.

[Renee]

And we've seen it time and time again and is very unhelpful to think that just because you're on one side rather than the other, you've got it completely, completely right.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

In fact, you need both to be able to make society function and work well. So. Yeah, that's why I think there's a lot of tension. It's the fact that there's so much extremes on both sides that we're not recognizing. It's literally like we're focusing so much on the extremities of each movement and each space. We're not actually focusing on the inherent ideals and values that both faith and feminism actually hold and uphold together.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So, yeah, that's what I would say, but would love to hear.

[Courtney]

No, I completely agree with you. I think the two can work hand in hand, and the tension arises because of misinterpretation, the extremes that lie on in both camps. There is extremities in religions. There is extremities in feminism, and those extremities often cannot coexist. Like, let's, let's. We can acknowledge that for real, those extremities can often not exist because fundamentally, the ideologies are different when you find yourself on those extreme ends. And I think one of the tensions that arise is because people have that very Western view of feminism.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And that's where oftentimes my frustration actually comes from, when I find myself in certain religious spaces and they're like, you know, all the feminists just ruining society. And I'm like, well, hold on. Because they be rolling their necks.

[Renee]

They be rolling their necks.

[Courtney]

First of all. First of all. First of all, just because you are. You have all of, you know, the spirit of God is in you, and you have your faith and all of that. And that's absolutely amazing. Let's not forget that one of the reasons why we can engage socially in the way that we can, even as religious people is because of political campaigns of feminists, like the feminist movement. And I also want to acknowledge that a lot of these feminist movements did not emerge. Like, and I love that you talked about early feminist movements. Early feminist movements did not emerge in contrary to religion.

[Renee]

Yes.

[Courtney]

A lot of the women who were at the forefront of feminist movements were in some way religious. And so it wasn't a thing of like, oh, we Just hate God, let's become feminist. It's not an alternative religion, it's a political ideology. Do you get what I mean? And so I think that's fundamentally one thing. But that doesn't mean, like you, you said something like that cannot be co opted by the enemy. Co opted with an agenda. Absolutely not. It doesn't make it immune to that at all. But I think the first thing to acknowledge is this is not something that arose in rebellion to something. And I think that's one of the biggest things that often feminism is painted with. It's this rebellious movement. And it's like we can get into the nuance, the nuances of that, but if we're looking at its origin, it's not a rebellious movement, it's a movement that. And feminism is purely just about the equality, believing in the equality of the sexes, something that most of us believe in. And so because of this movement, most of us are the reason why you're able to preach without being stoned. Even if the people that you know were pre deceiving you weren't calling themselves feminist feminists, they were still engaging in feminism because of what the feminist word actually means and what feminism actually means. The reason why I say that a lot of people have this western view is they say that feminism is going too far, feminism is too radical. Feminism is about the eradication of men. And I genuinely think it's because we're looking at feminism from this western lens where feminism in the west, it has taken on so many different forms over time. But what we are forgetting is there are feminists in the global South. There are women in other, just loads of different parts of the world that are not Europe, that are not America, who are fighting for the fundamental things that you think they don't need to fight anymore for because you assume they already have them. People are still fighting for the right to vote. People are still fighting for the right to go to school. People are still fighting for the right to not be raped. People are still fighting for the fact that they don't want to go through fgm. People are still fighting for this. And these are feminist causes which if you also call yourself a Christian, you should back. And the last thing that I will say on that as well is oftentimes we want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I always spin this on Christians and I say like if you were so, if you believe so much in this whole. Oh no, but the move, I, I mean I believe in feminism, but I don't want to call myself a feminist because of the messiness of the feminist movement, then you also wouldn't call yourself Christian. If we want to go on with that same line of thinking, you also would not call yourself a Christian because the messiness of Christianity as a move, as a movement that has emerged since Jesus died, literally, do you want to be aligned with that too? Because I'm sure the colonizers that came to Africa, that massacred people, they also called themselves Christians. So if you want to talk about the extremes and the misinterpretations of a movement, you need to remove every single political label you hold on yourself.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And any alignment that you have with any political ideology, you need to remove yourself from it. Because everything has its extremities, everything has factions in their ideology that you will not fully agree. Radical feminists and fundamentalist feminists don't agree.

[Renee]

Yeah, they don't.

[Courtney]

Postmodern feminists and the most of the. Most of the rest of them also don't agree. Do you? I mean, and so there is an intersection where your faith and your feminism can actually exist, but it requires you to curate your own beliefs and take and leave certain things. Right. Which, and this is why I say feminism is not a religion, because oftentimes you cannot do that with religion. Religion, you take 100% of that and you try. I mean, you can have theological questions, you can have all of these confusions, you can have all of these tensions with texts and, you know, teachings and cultures, but at the fundamental of it, you take that God in their entirety. Right. Feminism is not the same. You can pick and choose and still be a feminist on the lowest of level, the most extreme of level, the least amount of political engagement you want. But if you fundamentally agree that women should be treated as equal to men, then you're fine. Yeah. I also think another reason why there is a tension is a lot of religions, especially Abrahamic ones, acknowledge that men and women are equal, but they are different.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

A lot of extreme feminist movements do not want to acknowledge that. They, they believe that equality means sameness. And that is where there is a conflict and attention.

[Renee]

Yeah, that's good.

[Courtney]

And that is fine to acknowledge as well that, hey, like, I don't actually believe in that, like, as much as I believe, oh, I am equal to a man. I don't believe that my social role, my. My abilities, my. All of that is the exact same and it's accepted, expressed in the same way. But just because they're not expressed in the same way does not mean I Am of less value.

[Renee]

Yes.

[Courtney]

That is something that both people can also agree with. And I think that, that looking at this as a. Like you were saying, a human rights thing will help shift a lot of our perspectives. It will help us to spotlight on the fact that there are a lot of women in the world who do not have human rights. Fundamental human rights. Like, this is not about theological debate. This is about fundamental, fundamental human rights. And if you really care about people the way that you care about Jesus, you would. And the way Jesus cared about people. Sorry. You would also be doing a lot more work to pioneer the liberation of women all around the world. You might not even want to call yourself a feminist, but I'm telling you, you're going to end up doing a lot of the work that feminists are doing. You're going to start campaigning for issues. Sex trafficking. That is a feminism issue.

[Renee]

100.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? That is a feminist issue. That is also a huge human rights issue that we can all agree to partake in. And I find that sometimes there's this mutual exclusivity that is. Oh, because this is something that feminists are passionate about. I can't be passionate about it because I'm religious.

[Renee]

Does that make sense? You should even be the most.

[Courtney]

That makes sense to you.

[Renee]

You should even be the most passionate.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? Like, does that make any.

[Renee]

Stop babies?

[Courtney]

That doesn't make sense.

[Renee]

Are you normal?

[Courtney]

If feminists said they're gonna start, you know, saving the lives of children, are you gonna be like, well, kill them all? Because we don't agree. So clearly what you do, I must do the opposite. Let's be serious, guys. And I don't mean to trivialize this. And I. I want us to also go into some of the places where legitimate tensions will actually do exist.

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Courtney]

And talk about our own personal experiences as well. Like, have you ex. Experienced and any. In any points of your journey, tensions between your faith and your feminist outlook?

[Renee]

That's such a great question. Again, I might give two. Just to kind of show that they can exist where both environments are actually problematic. So being in a spiritual environment where, you know, feminism is not really accepted, or vice versa. So very quickly, first example, sometimes within Christian environments, being able to have candid conversations around the role of a woman and candid conversations around a culture that is built to protect men at the expense of women. And so not even necessarily just me personally, but I think about, like, things like adultery, things like fornication, things like any kind of sexual depravity, the heavy handedness with which we judge women versus how we judge men. I have seen far too many times and seen far too many friends that have been ostracized as women from religious communities because they are not the purveyors of purity. And so I think purity culture is probably one of the big ways in which my feminist outlook in, in conjunction with my faith, they don't really track or play back in that. My faith says that all of us need to be striving towards perfection. My faith also says that, you know, sexual purity is something that's mandated for both men and women. And so why is it that we have Christian cultures in which women are ostracized and have to bear the consequences of sexual impurity much more than men do? I have literally seen women who have, for example, fallen pregnant, like friends of mine that have fallen pregnant and have been isolated from communities, and yet I have seen men that have been in quite serious leadership positions, been given no accountability, afforded no kind of justice, afforded no kind of actual consequences for some of the things that they have done, and they have lost no privileges. They have, you know, continued to thrive and blossom in a lot of these communities. And yet women I've seen time and time again being ostracized. And I think that's where tensions arise in that, you know, this is my interpretation of the faith, and this is actually something that is in line with the inherent value and equality of the sexes. It's that sin has equal consequences for both genders. Whether you are a man or a woman, if you commit a sin, you're liable to the consequences. But sometimes the consequences that we should be doling out culturally just do not track in our communities. And so seeing women being part of a culture where like, sexual purity is idolized for a lot of women, seeing the heavy handedness with which we dismiss or we shame or embarrass women for sin versus men is a big place where I think that spiritual communities need to hold a bit more corn. Yeah, like I need you guys to hold a bit more. It needs to be consistent. And I think also going a step further, seeing predators or seeing people within positions of power when they are supposed to be trusted authorities within the faith, not be. Not hold the consequences of what they've done or not be held accountable to some of the things that they've done from a judicial perspective, actually, legally, that's where I think feminism needs to. You know, we need that in the church because it's only somebody that actually sees these like. Like the lives of the perpetrators and the lives of the victims as equal. It's only a culture, it's only a community. It's only a faith that upholds that, where we'll see justice. And the God that I serve is a God of justice. And so when I see a lack of justice, especially when it's between the sexes, that's where I can sometimes find tensions between my faith and then my political leanings, which I don't even think are super political. Again, a huge. A human rights issue. And I think it's very helpful to think of it in that term. Right. It's. This is a human rights issue. Like, this is genuinely. So that's one example, and I think that's a very salient example for a lot of women as well. That may be in these spaces. I think on the flip side, being somebody that is, you know, I believe in equality of the sexes, but again, I, you know, differences in roles. I think being someone that, you know, if you do want to be a domestic queen and a domestic goddess, being absolutely lambasted on social media or lambasted or like, in social circles, when you have that desire to be a homemaker, if you have that desire to have children. I think we've spoken about it on the podcast as well, about the nuances of, like, wanting and desiring marriage and a family and having children. It's almost like we're getting towards the flip side of the coin, where it's like, oh, you got a kid? You losing your pink? Or, oh, you want to be a homemaker in this economy ghetto? Or, oh, you want to have a kid before 30? Oh, no, you're gonna lose your life. This is not what feminism was fighting for.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

And it's like this. On the flip side, social ostracization of me tapping into what feminism has afforded me the opportunity to choose. Okay, yeah, I do. I actually, guys, I'm sorry. I do want to be married. Yeah, I do. Like Ben, unfortunately, you know, I was like, oh, I do actually want to have kids. And I. I do think it's important, obviously, for us to think about the reasons why we want to have kids and have a family and all that kind of stuff. But I do think that on the very radical side of political ideologies, it can make you feel guilty, and it can also make you feel as though you are. You're not intelligent, you are sometimes even selfish. Like, I've seen a lot of narratives around, like, oh, if you want to have kids in this Economy, you're selfish. I believe the term for it is something like anti natalism, where it's like, why would you bring a child into this world of suffering? And I think that, you know, valid arguments, you know, I mean, but I think where it gets to a point where I'm now starting to feel a bit guilty or feel a little bit uncomfortable with my own personal choices, then I start to see, ah, there's a little bit of conflict between my faith and feminism. Because my faith talks about free will and feminism also talks about free will. But in certain spaces, your free will needs to be exercised in a particular way for it to be legitimate. And so both sides and both environments hold tensions for me in those spaces. But how about you?

[Courtney]

I completely agree. I definitely resonate with those two examples. And I think also on the flip side of things, how my faith has informed my feminism. I think with feminism, if you're not too careful culture, you can become quite, you know, radical. You could start to hate the man. It's easy, very easy. And can't lie. When I first discovered feminism at like 15. Well, no, even younger than that. When I start studying.

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[Courtney]

In sociology. Thirteen, maybe.

[Renee]

Thirteen, yeah.

[Courtney]

I said, whoa, these men. And it did not help. Like, I grew up, me, my mom, my sister. I said, listen, it's just us girls. Yeah, right, right. And I think if you're not too careful and you don't apply critical thinking and nuance to a lot of things and finding your own standpoint, beliefs and values, it will be very easy to be overtaken by this extreme hatred for men. If I'm being very honest with you, especially when you think about, like you were saying about the disproportion of the disproportionate number of men who create commit violent crimes against women. When you think about, you know, just toxic patriarchy, when you think about toxic masculinity, you start to think like, ah, men are the enemy. Right. And a lot of different studies and a lot of different things will make you believe in that. And so I completely understand where extreme feminists kind of get that idea from. However, where my faith has had to inform that is, men are also made in God's image. Men also have a place to play in God's kingdom. Men are humans. They are actually human beings. And they. No, no, men are human beings because if you're not careful, you'll just see them as villains and villainistic animals. These, these things which a lot of. Let's not even be ignorant to the fact that a lot of other things have come to compound that idea that men, whether it be media, whether it be literature, whether it be whatever, that men should not be trusted, men should not be included, men should. Men are just as much as we, we might like them. As you were saying about wanting to get married, as much as we might like them, they're actually people to be feared. Yeah, I think a lot of things have compounded that rhetoric. Right. And it's not to sound like, you know, patriarchy princess, but I think where my faith has had to inform that aspect of my feminism is reminding me, Courtney, God also has a plan for men, and not every man is like that. And yes, you can fight for systemic issues, you can fight for social justice issues, but you also cannot afford to navigate through this world hating something that God looked at and said is good. Not their behavior, their existence. Do you get what I mean?

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Certain behavior can be taken terrible and we pick up bad behavior from everywhere. Yeah, I mean, we can. Certain behavior is bad. And also realizing that God does not co sign that bad behavior. He doesn't co sign that bad behavior. As much as church culture can get it wrong, when you have your own theological understanding of the Bible, you realize that God actually doesn't co sign men's bad behavior oftentimes. Right? A lot of, like, I don't think there's a, like many cases or any cases of women in the Bible who were, say, raped, who did not go either being defended or who consequences were not enforced on the person who raped them, for example. And I think it's so beautiful to see stories about how a woman was the recipient of an injustice or a Victim.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And then seeing the man's life unravel.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

In some kind of way. And I think God is very particular in the way that he illustrates the. These things in telling us, hey, there are consequences for men's bad behaviors. There is. There is consequences for foolishness. There is. And that's how I want it to be. I am a God of justice, and that means that if you do something to harm somebody who is made in my image, there is going to be a consequence. And I love how those moments are captured in the Bible. And so oftentimes when those things are not enforced now, it's often because there is culture that is being held higher than theology. There's culture and traditions that are being held higher than God's nature.

[Renee]

That's good.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? And so if somebody is in an environment where they aren't being held to account, it's probably because you're in a toxic culture, not because there is a. This is a toxic religion. Do you get what I mean? And so for me, I've just been holding on to, okay, God, I want to see your justice done. And there are a lot of people who just have needs to be done for. But I cannot throw these people out of my life and start seeing them as less than, because then I become what the enemy would want, Right. I become somebody who now doesn't honor the. The divinity of somebody. And that's not what I'm called to either. And so I think it's not allowing some kind of seed of, like, bitterness or hatred to be put inside of my heart. And especially as somebody who does desire to be married, also has brothers, actually, somebody who has male cousins, somebody who has, who. Who may one day have their own male children. I don't want to be the person who looks at them and thinks, oh, you know what? I hate every other man except you, because, no, I will bring that into my parenting. I'll bring that into being a wife. I'll bring that into so many other things. So I think it's been unlearning that underlying hatred for men as well. And then the other area where I would say is mainly in the area of, like, personality slash femininity, I think the way that you want to express yourself. What I enjoy about feminism is its ability to let us know that there is not one archetype of woman that we all need to fit into this traditional woman, this traditional wife, or that traditional feminine archetype that is, you know, the pinnacle of every woman's acceptance. Experience. I love that it gives us the ability to divert from that and still be.

[Renee]

Feminine.

[Courtney]

Feminine. Still be feminine, but still be valuable. Still be valuable. And I have found that in faith circles, oftentimes there is that one archetype of what a woman should be that everyone has to fit into. And people push that. And it's like, but actually, God values our uniqueness. God made you the way you are for a reason. So, for example, with myself, right. Your girl is opinionated. As you can tell, I have a lot of opinions. I have a lot of thoughts. And growing up in certain religious spaces and contexts, I was often told, like, you're too much. Like, it's too aggressive. And I'm not saying that my delivery may not have needed work over time, but even as I've refined my delivery, I have found that it still makes a lot of people uncomfortable. When you're a woman with opinions and you're a woman with thoughts, and you're a woman who has a very strong stance on political things and is vocal about those things, and allowing myself to be like, hey, I understand that this may make you uncomfortable because in this space, you may not have been taught to accept a woman who is like this, but God doesn't actually have a problem with that. Like, Deborah was a judge.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But she was also a wife. She was able to hold two different offices and spaces and identities. Because I'm allowed to be a multifaceted woman, which means that there are assignments God is going to put me on. There's a. There's a purpose for me which requires me to be somebody who can look at something and say yes or look at something and say no. And that doesn't just have to be in the context of my household. That can be in the context of my work. That could be in the context of my leadership. That could be in the context of my entrepreneurship. And that is stuff that God has called. Called me to. Therefore, he is actually happy with it. And I. Oh, then there's the third thing. Sorry, I have no. There's a. There's another big thing. And this hasn't necessarily been my spiritual experience, but I think that also touches on a lot of religious spaces making women feel as though God and his spirit indwelling in people is just for men. But. And there's a lot of people who exist in spiritual context where women are not allowed to preach, they are not allowed to teach, they are not allowed to hold any kind of leadership capacity, and they are almost implicitly being taught that the spirit of God cannot dwell in the vessel of a woman. And that's not true. God's Spirit dwells in all of us if you receive him. The Word talks about how there's no neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female. And that means that our ethnicities don't matter, our sexes don't matter. What matters is, is the Holy Spirit living inside of you? And the way he's going to speak, the way he's going to bring certain changes to your generation, the way he's going to enact purpose through you may be tailored based on your gender, but it doesn't limit his ability to work through you. You being a woman doesn't make you any less worthy of being somebody who fulfills God's ministry on the earth. And sometimes I have found that people want to limit women from accessing that. Like, okay, no, you can't be the evangelist. You can't be the teacher. No one's saying that they have to head up the church. What we're saying is allow them to express their gift. And if you have a gift and you're trying to express it, oftentimes it can be painted as, oh, you're being rebellious, you're being a Jezebel, you're being all of these things. And it's like, no, I'm just trying to do what God called me to do and exercise the gifts that he gave me so I can actually be of benefit to the body. But you guys are stifling me because of your own ignorance, your own beliefs, and your own conflict culture, which are trying to impress on me. And I think that that's what can be very unhelpful. Because especially if it's coming from spiritual authorities, it can feel as though it's coming from God himself.

[Renee]

Yeah, exactly.

[Courtney]

And it's like, well, why would you give me this gift of such and such if I can't use it anywhere apart from for my children? What if I don't have kids?

[Renee]

Y.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? What if I'm 21 and I've just discovered that I can prophesy scam. That doesn't make any sense to be. To be holding that inside of me just because I'm a woman. So if you're a woman, like, listening to this and you have some kind of gift, go and find somewhere that doesn't say that your gift can't be used by God or is not from God just because you're a woman. Just because they hate the vessel doesn't mean they should limit the spirit from Flowing like. And, and that's, that's been one of my biggest things I've had to flow, find spaces that are still spiritually sound, theologically accurate, that do not despise the vessels that gifts come through.

[Renee]

That's so good.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? And I think that is actually a huge sign of theological accurate accuracy. Yes, there is order. Yes, there is boundaries and restrictions for a reason. However, what a lot of religious organizations are illustrating as, oh, well, this is just the way we do things is not Bible. They, that's just culture and that's just tradition. And that's something that can be challenged. Oh. And should be challenged over time as well for God's church more broadly to actually advance.

[Renee]

That's beautiful.

[Courtney]

I think one of the last things that I wanted to touch on as well is for the ladies listening to this, how can they kind of cultivate their own kind of beliefs for themselves that are not dictated by one extremity or the other, but are actually nuanced and critical, critically thought about.

[Renee]

Yeah. No, first of all, I love, love, love what you were saying about, you know, being comfortable in the vessel that God is using.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I think you hit the nail. Like the language you used to describe that, it's you, you love the gift, you love everything inside somebody, but you actually despise the presentation of the thing. I think a lot of women feel that in their day to day, not even just within religious context, but actually in lots of other spaces where people like something about them but don't like them for them. So really praying that the sisters listening that you're liberated in knowing that all parts of you, including your presentation, is valuable in terms of developing your own mindset. It sounds so like, basic, but I think it just speaks to the fact that we've lost a lot of the basics in life, like in education. We talk a lot about critical thinking on this podcast. And I think what you've illustrated so well around, like some of your challenges around being an opinionated person is the fact that people don't like critical thinkers.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Because when you are a critical thinker, when you are opinionated, it means that you can't be controlled. And that's what people are seeking to do when they want somebody that's docile and submissive. They want somebody that they can control. And don't be afraid of challenging. That's one big thing that I would say in developing your critical thinking. Don't be afraid of challenging. Challenge the source, challenge the person who is delivering any kind of Insider knowledge to you or any kind of teaching to you. That's how you test the spirit. You challenge. You actually have to challenge and be curious enough to challenge. I think the problem is too many of us take information that we glean, especially from places like social media. In a lot of our environments, we assume that just because somebody is in the position of authority, they're actually functioning in it. Just because you have the title of, you know, apostle, prophet, teacher, this, all that kind of stuff, you still have to test the fruit to see actually is this good. Because lots of things can produce fruit, but a lot of these fruits can actually be poisonous. And so you have to test it. Like if you see something that you're like, oh, I'm not really sure if this is good, you take a little bite, you don't consume the whole thing. Too many of us are rushing to consume things which we haven't tested to see if they're actually good and if they can reproduce from that place. So make sure that you are testing, testing, testing, challenge, Ask questions. If you are in a faith based space, you should feel comfortable enough to ask your leadership questions. Come with questions. I remember when I was like a baby believer. Don't get me. I'm not a, I'm not a mature Christian. I'm not a seasoned saint, as it were. I'm still in the process of maturing. But when I was a, you know, just in the fave, I had the maddest questions. And that's because I'm actually a naturally curious person to the point where I actually drive people mad. I'll be asking you random questions like, oh, have you thought about why the sky is blue? Or like, have you thought about like the latest. Insert conspiracy theory, Bring that curiosity to these spaces. You don't have to water them down for anyone. There is a reason that you may be like that. There is a reason why there's something inside of you that may feel uncomfortable in certain ways, in places and positions. It's actually your intuition and it may well be the Holy Spirit saying, babe, I need you to exercise this a little bit for me. That's how you start to get confident in your discernment. When you actually act on the inner intuitions or the inner workings or inner groanings that actually exist on the inside of you. And don't allow other people to get you to doubt that, to quiet the voice on the inside. That's actually often the way that the Holy Spirit works in us. It's that little still that's small still Voice that's telling you, ooh, you need to evacuate this position, you need to evacuate this situation. There's something that's not quite right. So challenge, exercise. Go to the people that are in authority, ask them questions, teachers, anybody that is holding an office, they should be able and should be prepared to defend themselves at all times. That's literally the markings of maturity. And that's what we're called to do as believers, especially within the Christian faith in, is to make sure that you can actually, you know, defend the faith at all times. If someone were to come up to you and ask you, what do you think about xyz, you better start forming your opinion. If you call yourself this thing, yeah, you should be able to explain why. And that's where you want to get to, especially as women in these spaces. And that's how you develop that mindset and how you develop an opinion on something. You actually go, go out in search of information and you start to weigh up. What do I feel actually resonates with, with me, what do I feel is actually right? Cross referencing that with your knowledge of the Bible, cross referencing that with obviously the sermons and the teachings that you've had, especially within a spiritual environment. I think another really important thing, especially for women that are faith inclined, is to make sure that you actually key into discipleship. This is something that we speak about a lot on this podcast about the importance of discipleship. It's not enough to be invested in information. You also need to have accountability and you also need to have someone invested in you. So whilst you may have all of the knowledge of the sermons that you've been seeing online, you may have all of the books and all of that kind of good stuff. You still need people to engage with you and engage with your journey, because those are also people that can correct you. And too many of us are going unchecked in our acquisition of information. And how you develop a strong opinion on something is when you've been strongly challenged and strongly discipled. So make sure you seek out environments where people actually challenge you, people hold you accountable. People are not afraid to say, babe, actually, I don't think you're right.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And then stand the test of time. Because it's when you're getting used to debating and engaging with people that you become more confident, that you become more coherent and you're actually able to become more convincing and compelling. Because that's what faith is actually about. It's being so compelled by a belief system that you actually need to share it with other People. And so building that baseline of fundamental conviction starts with discipleship, somebody and people and an environment that's sound. That is not running away from challenge, that is not running away from the questions that you might have. That is a place where you feel like you can grow and actually be held accountable. That is the key to making sure that you are developing that critical thinking. And I think it's the same for people that are politically inclined as well. Keep challenging the systems and also I think giving grace to the fact that a lot of the things that you may believe will change and develop as you grow.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

You are not a static person. You're not a static woman. Maybe something that you believed in 10 years ago. Now you're like, oh, you know, I was young or like things have changed for me. You know, give yourself space to grow. I also went for a very similar thing. It's that 13, 14, 15, 16 year old phase where everything is up for grabs. You will be a radical feminist to a radical something. Just insert word of movement. You'll be a radical something. Give yourself space to go through those phases. That's actually okay. And it's okay to change your mind. Get used to and get comfortable with changing your mind on stuff when you are presented with new, compelling evidence too. Because so many of us, we are clinging to outdated norms and clinging to things that we actually should have let go of a long time ago because we want to save face. Even though we've been proven wrong, even though we've been embarrassed, even though you know something has actually happened to shatter what should be your belief. But you're, you're hanging on.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

For saving face, babe. Be embarrassed and be embarrassed quick. Let it go. Let it go. And in the realm of spirituality and politics, you need to get to a place very comfortable where you very quickly. Where you are comfortable with being embarrassed. It's actually okay. Momentarily embarrassed. When new information comes, please, sis, take that new information, pack your bag and be going, leave that place. And that's really what evolution and progression looks like. It looks like being able to say, being able to challenge, be corrected, but also admit when you know things have developed and changed for you and allow yourself to be wrong so that you can eventually be right. So yeah. And also lastly, I'll say make sure you have conversations with like friends, family, community, etc, those are the grounds for which critical thinking happens. We have debates often or like, what do you think about this? Oh yeah, I'm on the same page. Oh, sis, I don't know. Do not be a yes, man. Just because your friend believes in something doesn't mean that you have to believe in it too. It's actually okay to have the different opinions and get there quick. Just because, okay, one of your friends is more right than left, one of your friends is more left than right. That's not grounds for you to now, you know, completely shut your ears and say, I don't want to listen to this. You become a more well rounded person and individual when you are able to hold these tensions comfortably. Yeah, that's what I would say, but I learned the plane there.

[Courtney]

I completely agree. I completely agree with you. I think it's expanding your knowledge about certain, certain things and really asking yourself, okay, what questions do I have maybe about my faith or my spirituality, what faith or my religion? And what questions do I have about women, womanhood, the women's experiences in the world. And like, I think one is remembering that God can handle those questions. God can really handle those questions. If it's journaling, if it's prayer, if it's like God actually lead me to the answers because I'm, I genuinely don't understand. I think the worst thing you can do is just sweep those things to the side because you think they will offend God or they'll anger him. Like, why are you asking me these questions? No, they're worth, they're actually worth asking. And I think it will help you to feel more liberated in your spirituality and in your political ideologies. Right. I also think that it's okay once you do that activity to acknowledge that one, you don't have all the answers, and two, the answers that you may find may not satisfy you. I think one of the biggest things that we can do is we can go especially into our religion and we can make God what we want him to be and not who he actually presents himself to be to us through whatever we're reading. And I think what can be dangerous about that is you start to live in a fantasy world where this, there's kind of this dissonance between what you say you believe and what you actually believe. And I think it's okay to embrace that. There may be some things that, for example, if you're a feminist and you're exploring Christianity or you are a Christian and you're like, okay, God, I have questions about certain things. There may be some things that you discover that you're like, this ruffles my political feathers a bit. Like, oh, maybe you are somebody who like hates the idea of submission. The word makes you want to Be sick. And then you go and you read the Bible and you read Ephesians, and you're like, there, there it is in black and white, telling me to submit to my husband. That is going to bring a certain level of tension. That's going to bring a certain level of discomfort. But your discomfort doesn't change the truth of what you read on the text. And there is a way for you to move forward and reconcile your understanding of it, but it's not that you should now act as though that is not there. And so if somebody then comes to you and is like, oh, you know, your Christian belief says that women should be submissive. You can't just be like, no, it doesn't. Yes, it does. It really does. And you have to reconcile, okay, God, like, does this submission mean that you hate women? Does this submission mean that you believe that they're incapable? Let me go and do my theological findings. Let me go and read. Let me go and study. Let me go and ask people. Let me go and have the conversations. Let me do some reading and some study. Because again, a lot of this can also be based on this person said that. This person said this. But, babe, what do you actually think? Have you looked at the material? And so I would say, be okay with the gray areas and the discomfort that can come with you exploring these questions, which you may already have, or maybe you may find that you have. And the last thing is you can explore different political ideologies without losing your spiritual grounding. And I think a lot of people think if they're going to grow in their political knowledge, they're going to have to deconstruct their faith or they're going to have to take a step away from religion. And you know what? For some people, it does end up being that. That. And that's a journey that you may end up going on, or someone around you may end up going on. But what I've actually found is when we approach these things with inquisitiveness and curiosity, we actually find that our tensions were based on our own preconceived ideas versus what's actually there. And so it's okay to still hold on to your spiritual grounding, still hold on to your spiritual practices, but still go on this conquest of figuring out more so that you can increase your knowledge. And those things all come from what Renee was saying around, like, educating yourself, finding ways to educate yourself and kind of just find out more. And it's good to be curious. It's a really good thing to be curious. So I would say read the right things and also expose yourself to different schools of thought. Like you're, there are so many different ways of thinking that exist in the world. It's okay to explore the different ones. And I truly believe that, like, especially with our faith, when you're so anchored in your knowledge of who God is, you start to explore the world through the understanding of his nature, not just how people tell you, who people tell you he is and how he wants things to be. Christianity is really about us exercising our own personal responsibility to get to know God more personally. And sometimes that will require us to lift up our politics and look at it and be like, okay, God, through the light of your word and, and how I believe you form the world. What is the truth about this thing? But the worst thing that you can do is project your idea of who God is based on what other people have told you he is onto that political thinking. Because then you may find yourself in grievous error. And that can also do things like crush your calling, that can crush your purpose, that can derail you entirely. And you may end up having to undo years and years of programming because you haven't encountered who God actually is and what his word describes him to be. So we're all on our journeys and that's a beautiful thing. But be proactive in you reconciling some of the questions that you might have. Don't just brush them off, actually investigate them. So yeah, I, I, I think the where women often feel, feel that tension of can I be a feminist if I am religious? Oftentimes it's just because of culture and it's not because of the actual text. But that's down to you to get into. I can't do all that work for.

[Renee]

You, but we can.

[Courtney]

Yeah. So genuinely, we hope that this conversation has been interesting. Maybe it's been more so a conversation starter for you. Send it into a group chat, ask girls what do they think about this topic and get a conversation drumming up in your own community because hopefully it will provoke some thought in you or even validate some of the things you've been thinking or feeling. We always want these episodes to be something that sparks conversation in your friendships and hopefully if this can do that, give it a like, why not? So, sisters, we love you. You can stay plugged into everything that we are doing at TMS by following us on social media o My Sister Sisterhood, literally on every platform. You can also follow us individually, Renee Kapuku and DBWating. And if you haven't already sign up to our mailing list on our website to my sisters.com to keep in the loop about all the things that we are doing over at tms. We hope that you have an amazing rest of your week and as always, keep glowing and growing.

[Renee]

Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16e with Apple Intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mod. We pulled so many all nighters to give you this deal. And hey, stop messing with the mic.

[Courtney]

I'm just helping us catch people's attention. This is a great deal.

[Renee]

Exactly, so it doesn't need all that.

[Courtney]

Fine.

[Renee]

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[Courtney]

Visit your nearest Boost mobile store for full offer details. Apple Intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.