Should You Cut Her Off? Navigating Boundaries, Accountability & Conflict in Female Friendships

Summary

To My Sisters Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Should You Cut Her Off? Navigating Boundaries, Accountability & Conflict in Female Friendships
Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Natasha Imafidon
Date: June 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and candid episode, Courtney and Renée unpack the emotionally complex topic of navigating boundaries, accountability, and conflict in female friendships. They address listener dilemmas, explore why friendship breakups can be so painful, discuss the rise of "cutting people off" culture, and provide rich, practical advice for both ending and repairing friendships. Throughout, they advocate for radical honesty, mature communication, and the importance of true community, while challenging the modern glamorization of hyper-independence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Dilemma: Navigating a Difficult Friendship Group

[04:01 – 15:36]

• The Situation: A listener struggles with a group member who routinely oversteps boundaries and spreads negativity, even after multiple private discussions.
• Advice from Hosts:
  • Courtney encourages honest communication with mutual friends, clarifying the intent isn't to exile anyone, but to explain feelings and boundaries.

    "This is not you blowing up the friendship group... it's just letting them know, like, hey, showing up right now in the wider group, it doesn’t make me feel 100% comfortable." (Courtney, 06:13)

  • Renee highlights the importance of not succumbing to group pressure and allowing for individual relationships outside the group dynamic.

    "It’s okay to be demoted as a friend... don’t allow a group dynamic to hide the fact that you have individual relationships." (Renee, 11:42)

• Boundaries and Feedback: They recommend giving clear, if gentle, feedback directly to the person when possible (unless personal safety is a concern).

2. Why Are Friendship Breakups So Painful?

[16:37 – 24:00]

• Deep Emotional Bonds: The hosts compare friendship breakups to romantic ones, often just as painful because "friendships are a form of love." (Courtney, 18:26)
• Loss of Shared Future: Breakups can feel traumatic due to the loss of shared dreams and vulnerability.
• Betrayal and Grief: Unexpected betrayals from friends hit especially hard due to trust and intimacy.

  "You’re not only dealing with betrayal, but grieving a future you thought you’d have." (Courtney, 20:08)

3. The Rise of “Cutting Off” Culture

[24:01 – 36:36]

• Commodification of Relationships: The hosts critique treating friendships as disposable, stemming from hyper-individualistic, capitalist values.
  • "We can commodify people—like, you’re not helpful to me, move!" (Courtney, 24:01)
• Level-Up/Networking Narrative: This “leveling up” culture often wrongly blames friends for personal stagnation, fueling ego, and dismissing the value of accountability.
• Power of Community:

  "Your life depends on you having some kind of social relationships... rising rates of loneliness are actually quite scary." (Courtney, 27:53)

• Loneliness Epidemic: They highlight the serious health and emotional downsides of chronic loneliness.

4. When Is It Justified to Cut a Friend Off?

[40:11 – 47:28]

• Clear Criteria:
  • If someone is persistently "committed to violating and abusing you," that friendship should end.

    "If you are committed to making me feel uncomfortable, unimportant, unloved, I don’t care for you being in my life." (Courtney, 40:33)

  • Friendships require mutual effort and respect; ongoing one-sidedness or disrespect is a dealbreaker.
• Due Diligence:
  • Before making a final cut, ensure clear expression of boundaries and values.
  • Implement a “relational justice system”: minor infractions = warning, repeated offenses = “record,” and ongoing pattern = cutoff.

5. Self-Reflection, Accountability, and Growth

[47:29 – 70:44]

• Self-Awareness: The importance of assessing your own behavior, not just others’.

  "Self-awareness is not just about being aware of what people are doing to you, but also being aware of how you’re affecting and impacting other people’s lives." (Renee, 47:29)

• Pride as an Obstacle:
  • Refusal to accept correction is rooted in pride and can ruin friendships.

    "Pride and ego is the enemy... If you cannot take feedback, you will be stuck as this version of yourself for the rest of your life." (Courtney, 68:34)

• Normalize Feedback: Confrontation and difficulties are opportunities for growth and shouldn’t be feared.

  "Don’t let your pride be the reason why you lose good friends." (Courtney, 66:23)

• Create Safe Friendship Spaces: Not all social interactions require performance; friends should be places of rest.

6. Repairing and Saving Friendships

[71:47 – 81:13]

• Therapy and Honesty: Professional support and honest, sometimes uncomfortable conversations can help repair wounded bonds.
  • "Therapy can help with that immensely because it gives you the language, but also the source." (Renee, 72:00)
• Vulnerability & Patience: Healing is nonlinear and requires radical honesty, patience, and a shared commitment.
• Mutual Commitment: Both parties must actively want to rebuild and "commit to the process," accepting that it can take years.
• Accepting Humanity: Recognize the fallibility of friends, and offer forgiveness as needed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Group Politics:

  "Adult friendships don’t work that way. We are all managing our individual perceptions of people." (Courtney, 08:33)

• On Cutting People Off:

  "If you glorify cutting people off, you will never have a safe space." (Renee, 35:29)

• On Self-Examination:

  "If you weren’t to make it home today, would anyone know?" (Courtney, 35:29 and 38:05)

• On Feedback:

  "Friendships should be able to handle somebody saying, 'I don’t like that,' and it not make things awkward." (Courtney, 58:15)

• On Commitment:

  "If you’re going to have good adult friendships, it requires commitment... Not every season is beautiful, but what we make of it in the end—oh, that’s glorious." (Courtney, 80:32)

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Practical Tips & Takeaways

• Communicate Directly: Address boundary violations honestly and early.
• Support Individual Bonds: Invest in one-on-one relationships within a group setting.
• Don’t Rush Judgment: Consider context, express boundaries clearly, and allow for grace before cutting someone off.
• Be Humble: Accept that you can be wrong; value correction as a gift from friends.
• Value Vulnerability: Rest and authenticity, not performance, should define your closest friendships.
• Therapy Isn't Weakness: Seeking outside help can give perspective and language for difficult emotions.
• Relationships Require Maintenance: Like healing a wound, restoring a friendship takes time, intention, and effort from BOTH parties.
• Count the Cost: Ending a friendship leaves "a wound"—ask if the cut is worth the consequences.

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Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment/Quote | |--------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 04:01–15:36 | Deep dive into listener dilemma: boundaries and excluding group members | | 18:26 | "Friendship breakups are as painful as romantic breakups." — Courtney | | 24:01–36:36 | The rise of "cut off" culture and its pitfalls | | 35:29 | "If you glorify cutting people off, you will never have a safe space." — Renee | | 40:33 | Clear criteria for cutting off a friend: persistent boundary violations | | 47:29 | "Self-awareness is not just about being aware of what people are doing to you..." — Renee | | 58:15 | "Friendships should be able to handle somebody saying, 'I don’t like that,' and it not make things awkward."| | 66:23 | "Don’t let your pride be the reason why you lose good friends." — Courtney | | 68:34 | "Pride and ego is the enemy... If you cannot take feedback..." — Courtney | | 71:57–79:31 | How to save a friendship: therapy, honesty, mutual commitment | | 80:32 | "If you’re going to have good adult friendships, it requires commitment." — Courtney |

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Tone and Language

• Emotionally Intelligent and Warm: The conversation is nuanced and empathetic, with both hosts using humor and personal anecdotes to illustrate their points.
• Direct but Supportive: Honesty is paired with compassion—advice is clear but never cruel.
• Empowering & Community-focused: The message is consistently focused on building authentic, loving sisterhood and resisting cultural narratives promoting isolation or hyper-independence.
• Rooted in Faith: Occasional references to their Christian worldview, with emphasis on values like forgiveness, restoration, and self-examination.

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Closing Thoughts

Courtney and Renée argue powerfully for the healing and sustaining power of female friendship—reminding listeners that boundaries, feedback, and the courage to repair are all crucial. They challenge the “cut-off” glamor trend and urge women to commit, be humble, and do the work required to nurture real friendship. Their message is clear: genuine sisterhood is both life-giving and worth fighting for.

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Have you navigated a friendship breakup or saved a relationship through tough conversations?

Share your experiences and join the conversation at @tomysisterhood across all platforms!

Transcript

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[Renee Mathadon]

Friendship Breakups when to know whether you should actually cut off your friend or maybe the friendship is worth saving.

[Courtney]

Friendship breakups are as painful as romantic breakups.

[Renee Mathadon]

They really are.

[Courtney]

Because friendships are a form of love.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's good to be in the company of others.

[Courtney]

If you cut them off because they told you the truth and you perceive that as criticism, you've actually lost an asset.

[Renee Mathadon]

If you glorify cutting people off, you will never have a safe space.

[Courtney]

If you weren't to make it home today, would anyone know?

[Renee Mathadon]

Somebody will tell you. Oh the way that you said that I don't like that. That's just how I am.

[Courtney]

I'm direct.

[Renee Mathadon]

I'm a shop.

[Courtney]

Do you think that helps you? Why are we so attached to bad character? Why?

[Renee Mathadon]

Don't let your pride stop you from using your friends as a mirror.

[Courtney]

Yeah, he who has an ear, let him came here cuz some of you see you ended up in bad.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it. And if you don't hear, you must watch people feel.

[Courtney]

Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters Podcast. I'm Courtney.

[Renee Mathadon]

And I'm Renee and we are your online sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.

[Courtney]

We are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of women around the world.

[Renee Mathadon]

And in today's podcast episode we're going to be talking about feedback, friendship breakups, when to know whether you should actually cut off your friend or maybe the friendship is worth saving. Who knows? Let's dive into it. Let's dive into it. But before we do that, do we have any housekeeping announcements?

[Courtney]

No.

[Renee Mathadon]

No. Yeah, it feels like the house is sweet. We keep our house clean. Yeah, I don't lie but we try. We Try to keep our. Our. Our house clean.

[Courtney]

That is hilarious.

[Renee Mathadon]

But I guess just another. If you haven't already purchased the To My Sisters book, I think you should consider. We're talking about friendship.

[Courtney]

Considering this topic, actually. Yeah. As you can tell, both editions are there on the fireplace. To My Sisters is a book all about female friendships. It's all about the good, the bad, the ugly, navigating it, making the most of it.

[Renee Mathadon]

There you go.

[Courtney]

Yeah, and becoming a better friend. Thousands of women already around the world have read it and love it. And so if you would like to grab a copy for you and a friend, make sure that you get it on Amazon or, you know, good store stones. All the things booksellers near you, I guess.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, all the things. All the things. So make sure that you get your copy. You can get the blue book. You can get.

[Courtney]

Yeah, the red book.

[Renee Mathadon]

Whichever one. Whichever one is the same.

[Courtney]

Card. If you want the hard, you know, knock, knock, then they. You get the pink one. If you want the paperback nifty to take around with you get the blue.

[Renee Mathadon]

There you go. So go ahead and get both books if you like. One for you, one for assistant, Both for you. Why not? But I guess we can get diving into the world, straight into it, to the ding, ding, ding dilemma. In the true vein of friendship, actually. So. Hi, sisters.

[Courtney]

Hey, sweetie.

[Renee Mathadon]

This is a bit awkward, but I am in a friendship group with one girl that I don't like. We used to be close at first, but the more I got to know her, the more I realized I couldn't handle how intensive she was and her negative energy. She consistently and always makes comments and pushes my boundaries relentlessly. Even though I've discussed this with her privately many times. The final straw has been her trying to purposefully exclude me out of group plans. How do I cut off the friendship and also stay friends with the other girls in the group? Understandably, I'll stop going to group outings because I really can't handle her energy. It mentally drains me.

[Courtney]

Okay, fair. That's a boundary then. That's a boundary right there. First of all, thank you for sending your dilemma. And you know what? This is so real. This is so real. Especially when it comes to friendship groups. Yeah, politics. You know, it's not everybody that you'll be super duper close with. Now, obviously our hope and our desire is that everyone would at least be cordial. But in this case, it seems like there's a clash of personalities, but also something a bit harsher going on, which is this person actually Pushing your boundaries and being unable to understand. You're crossing a line here. So in terms of managing this, I think your mind is definitely made up on what you want to do. That's completely fine. I think in terms of navigating and carrying that out, my advice would be the wisest thing to do is to tell your other friends how uncomfortable this situation has made you feel. Now, obviously, give them the disclaimer that you are not trying to get her pushed out of the friendship group. You're not trying to affect their relationship with her. Because I think within friendship groups, we have to be honest about the fact that everyone has a different relationship with everybody else. And the way someone interacts with one person, that might not be the version of them that another person knows in the group. You know, and so you might be like, she's this, this, this. And they might be like, that's my homegirl.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, she's good with me.

[Courtney]

I've never seen things that way.

[Renee Mathadon]

Right.

[Courtney]

And so being able to let them know this is how it makes me feel. Don't want to, like, cloud the way that you guys see her. Obviously, she's in. She's their friend for a reason. You might find that they might be like, yeah, me too. But at the end of the day, it comes down to your feelings, your actions.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so this is not you blowing up the friendship group. Also, I don't want this to turn into a gossiping thing. So it's just letting them know, like, hey, showing up right now in the wider group, it doesn't make me feel 100% comfortable. So I might not be as present in group things, but, like, I'm here for you, girl. You know, call me for anything you want me to be in, I can make. I'll be there maybe having that conversation around, you know, me and her, just not. I don't really like her that much. And then allowing yourself, I guess, to then, as you said, just take a step back from group dynamics, not communicate with this girl as often as maybe you used to. I do think there's something valuable there for her in you bringing up, if you haven't already, that, babe, the way you act towards me sometimes makes me feel hella uncomfortable. Right. And I really don't like the way that you've been pushing my boundaries. I don't know if it's something that you've noticed or you've been doing on purpose, but it's actually made me feel really, really uncomfortable to the point where I don't even want to Be in group dynamics when you're around and depending on the type. But now she's the type of person to throw hands, don't even have this conversation. You keep your peace. Exactly. You keep your peace. But if she can take that feedback on board, I think it would be very helpful. Even if that conversation doesn't lead to you to reconciling your relationship, you don't have to be friends in order to give somebody feedb on how they've left you feeling. Right. But if that's something that she doesn't want to receive, it's fine because you're on your way out anyway. So it sounds to me like you kind of made up your mind. You just need to make your other friends aware of why this is happening, and I think you're perfectly within your right to do so. Now, obviously, as time goes, she might apologize, she might say, I'm sorry, but I think the key thing here is to wait to see change in her behavior. But overall, I'm very sorry that you've been left feeling like this. There was another thought that I had, but it's kind of left my mind. But I hope that this helps in to some degree. I think you're justified in. In your approach.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I think it's just about now honest communication and recognizing that, hey, you should also be comfortable if your other friends decide to maintain a relationship with her.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because it may not be their personal exception experience that she is this way. And I think sometimes friendship groups can become a bit awkward when, you know, someone's like, I don't like this person. And then they want everyone else to also not like them. Adult friendships don't work that way. We are all managing our individual perceptions of people. And your friends might be like, you have a problem with her girl, but I don't, you know, and so I'm gonna be friends with her. The friendship group is still going to your. The door is always open to you if you want to, but now it's on you to maintain your friendships with people individ show up to group things where it matters not to put all our business out there, child. But, you know, our friendship group has gone through its things. You know, shout out to squad love honestly. And, you know, there were some situations where, you know, a person will be like, don't know how I feel about this anymore. You know, But I think what's beautiful about our friendship group is there's always a genuine and honest communication of I still also want to be respectful. Yeah, I still want to love. I still want to be present and supportive where I can. But also I recognize that I may not be equally as close to each of you, and that's fine. And so I think it's letting. Making sure that, you know, for example, if the group is having a birthday dinner for someone who you are still close to and you're like, but this baby's going to be there, I don't want to go. I think it's good to call the person whose birthday it is or whoever's organizing it and be like, hey, I really want to come and celebrate you.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But I don't want to be around this person. Is it okay if I am not there? Now you should also ask, like, you should hear them out. If they say, no, I really want you to be there. And then I think the mature thing to do is go and then keep your distance from this person. Good. Now if they are the type of person who they will bring the business to you, you know, they will close that gap real quick and find themselves all up in your face. Then I think that's when. Why it's important to let other people in the group be aware so that they can also do some of the work to keep that person away from you. Because I don't like them.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, and they don't like me. So just, let's all. Just let's all be respected ourselves.

[Renee Mathadon]

Everybody respect themselves.

[Courtney]

Because it's even taking me a lot to come here. So everybody respect themselves.

[Renee Mathadon]

Etiquette.

[Courtney]

Okay? It's etiquette. Exactly. And I think, again, that's an aspect of adult friendships and the politics that that involves, that we need to be more open about that. Each of us just needs to respect ourselves. Yeah, I want to show up for my friend, please. So I'm going to show up. But don't bring the mess to my doorstep, because this is not the Real Housewives. Yeah, but what are your thoughts, Corny?

[Renee Mathadon]

I think that you expressed yourself very articulately. I don't think there's much to add to that, to be honest with you. I think we're all adults here, and we don't have to be friends with everyone. I think sometimes group dynamics can create pressure that you have to be friends with everybody, friends with everybod, to the same degree, the same intimacy. And I think there has to be a recognition of the fact that this person crossed your boundaries multiple times. So as much as they may have positive relationships with other people, with you,

[Courtney]

it didn't work out.

[Renee Mathadon]

Maybe you might. You Lucky if you're an acquaintance at this point. And that's okay. Like, it's okay to be demoted as a friend. So I think exactly what you said. Look, it's about being an adult here. If it is that, you know, you find yourself in social situations or settings where that person is going to be there, you can move respectful, but we don't have to chat about our business. Like I said, you was an acquaintance at best, and I think don't allow a group dynamic to hide the fact that you have individual relationships with people. And this should be an opportunity for you to invest in those individual relationships. So, for example, within our girl group, yes, we're a squad. Yes. Like, we go out together, but we also have individual relationships with each person. Like, we have made a concerted effort to hang out with individuals, whether it be two of us at a time, three of us at a time, whatever. We've really tried to sow the seed of friendship and sisterhood individually as well as, as a group and as a community. And I think sometimes it's the individual bonds that will end up strengthening that whole communal bond so that you guys can actually coexist in the space without it coming to blows.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

So I think really thinking about, okay, cool, I'm not friends with this person, but I am friends with the rest of the group. I love them, so let me actually invest in the friendship there. And yes, you can disclose, as Courtney mentioned, you're no longer friends with this person. You don't even necessarily have to go into too much detail. You can say exactly what you said to us. She crossed some of my boundaries. These are what happened. I'm sure that you have a great relationship with her. This is not a festival for slating this person. This is just me announcing what is the reality of my life. Yeah. Yeah. So it doesn't get awkward and then move on and think about, okay, to this friend that I've just mentioned this information to, girl, I love you. I want us to invest in our relationship. I want us to continue to be friends. There will be some situations where that friend may, you know, host a gathering and you're not invited. That's life.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Just like you may want to host a gathering and she's not invited. That's life. That's actually okay. I think we do not have to be in secondary school, like primary school, when it comes to our adult friends, our adult friendships. And if you do have a good set of girlfriends, they'll be able to pivot, manage, do everything lovingly. So that this can actually happen and coexist for the sister that has been since cut off. Baby, you need to change your ways. That's bad behavior. No, it's bad. It's very bad behavior. Cuz I was just thinking like now you've made things awkward for, for this baby and you didn't have to, you didn't have to be this way.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

So like, please guys, make sure you're continuing to evaluate your relationships with people within a group. Like really thinking about some of those individual relationships that you have. And if somebody gives you a boundaries, don't be crossing those boundaries. And also don't. I don't know if you're doing it intentionally because I'm just going off of what sister has shared. But being exclusionary intentionally is such bad behavior. Like that's like year six.

[Courtney]

That's bullying, actually.

[Renee Mathadon]

Good.

[Courtney]

Yeah, that's bullying.

[Renee Mathadon]

That is bullying. Being intentionally exclusionary, especially because as adults it can be very difficult to cultivate, maintain our friendships. And this is the time where I would argue we probably need our friends the most. So I really need you to reflect on your behavior. And if you're a sister out there that has passed away, somebody, you better go and address it now and you better go and ask for forgiveness and then repent. Please change your ways. It's good to change your way. But yeah, I completely agree. I think you just got to be an adult about it. You've. I think you've done the right thing. You. It sounds like you've given her multiple chances. It sounds like you guys have tried to do some kind of reconciliation. It hasn't, it hasn't worked. What can you do? So I think you just got to move accordingly. Be an adult about it. Show love to your remaining friends and try and be as cordial as possible whenever you come across her, such as life. And then maybe if there's an opportunity for reconciliation, that's on your own terms, but it's also okay not to reconcile. Yeah, it's okay. Fine, you don't have to do all of that, but we're sending you lots of love, sis. It's an awkward position to be in, but also congrats to you for standing 10 toes down on your boundaries because

[Courtney]

that's not easy to do.

[Renee Mathadon]

Sometimes it's not easy to do and nobody can take you for an idiot.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

And that's good. But sisters, we would love to hear, what are your thoughts on this situation? Have you found yourself in a situation where a girl has crossed your boundaries and she has Made it very awkward for you to navigate your other friendships.

[Courtney]

Please comment down below your thoughts. Because the girls be tripping. The girls be tripping. And honestly, friendship politics is not easy to navigate at all. So let us know your thoughts, sisters. Also, if I keep moving around, guys, I'm on my period. My uterus is deciding that it wants

[Renee Mathadon]

to do too much.

[Courtney]

It wants to be the star of the show.

[Renee Mathadon]

I hear it. So, yeah, it's okay, girl. This is. It's giving contemporary dance. You know what I'm saying? Or like, I'm here, I'm present with you. You know, when people move around, like, yeah, I'm here, I'm present, I'm agile. Oh, tell me you own a startup. We have to remain agile. Anyway, back to the topic at hand,

[Courtney]

the actual conversation, which is all about

[Renee Mathadon]

friendship breakups and navigating, you know, where we're at in society as girls. You know, one of the things that we hear dilemmas about a lot is the friendship. Should I cut her off? Should I keep. Ha. I'm fighting. I'm fighting, I'm fighting. The girls are fighting.

[Courtney]

Wrestling.

[Renee Mathadon]

We're wrestling. Yeah, we are doing a cock and bull fight. But first of all, I actually wanted to start with, like, why are friendship breakups so painful? Because one thing that I've seen on, like, social media or even, like, in amongst ourselves when we talk about the loss of a friend, I know that friendships right now are now seeing a resurgence, right, in the life of a woman as being something that's important. But friendship breakups can be really traumatic, like, really, really painful. So, like, why are we, like, why are friendship breakups so painful, first and foremost? And then also, why do you think there's a resurgence or, like, a popularity arising, all of this, like, content or popular discourse around making sure that you have the right people around you and, like, cutting off friends. Because I know we spoke a little bit in one of our episodes about, like, beauty maxing and, like, self improvement. And we've spoken about productivity just in general. I think this kind of goes hand in hand with it in terms of a lot of the dilemmas or the conversations that we see around getting rid of your, like, friendships go hand in hand with this idea of, like, self improvement or leveling up or changing and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, two different things there. But, you know, why are they so painful? But then also, why is everyone cutting off their friends? What's up?

[Courtney]

What's going on? My God, such. Two great questions, I think. First of all, friendship breakups are as painful as romantic breakups.

[Renee Mathadon]

They really are.

[Courtney]

Because friendships are a form of love. You Right. You know, actually, friendships are a form of love, and heartbreak is heartbreak. You know, our friends. I mean, we'll speak for our sisters, right? Our friends that have become our sisters. We think about doing life with them.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, like, we've been best friends for nearly 20 years. Right?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Think about all the chapters that we've seen of each other. But then also we have thought about being godmothers to each other's children, aunties to each other's children, being there for when each other gives birth. And we. All the time, actually.

[Renee Mathadon]

I will be there. By the way.

[Courtney]

My bag is packed.

[Renee Mathadon]

I'll be there.

[Courtney]

Who's your birthing partner? Forget my husband. Who this babe? But also, like, all the times we make jokes about being with each other, you know, when we're in our wheelchairs and we're just zooming each other around and we're with our Zimmer frames and, you know, we'll be old and hot.

[Renee Mathadon]

You're not ready for us.

[Courtney]

But we will be old and like this, just aging together as friends. Right. I think friendships hold such a beautiful place in our lives. And some friendships are lifelong.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But when friendships you thought would be lifelong come to an end, it can feel extremely heartbreaking, as if you were losing a romantic partner. Because you do the same thing with your romantic partners. Right. You think about life with them, the future with them. There's elements of my future where I think about my friends there. Even if they're just in the background, they are there. So now to now, imagine that you're not going to be there. It's like, well, this is a massive loss. I'm grieving a future that hasn't happened yet, but which I would have really enjoyed. So I think that's why friendship breakups can be extremely hurtful. But also it's the way the friendship might end. And for a lot of friendship breakups, I think what's at the cause of it is somebody did something that you never imagined they could have done to you.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

They acted in a way that you never thought they could act to you. And so you are now also dealing with senses of betrayal, senses of distrust, senses of pain. And pain is pain. It's. It hurts friendships. I think we don't talk enough, and I guess it's a vulnerability thing, but we don't talk enough about how hurtful it is to be hurt by a friend. Right. When somebody who you love, who had access to the most vulnerable, intimate parts of you, your mind, your story does something that betrays the way you thought they would act towards a situation. It's like raw from. I never would have expected that from you, you know, and it can take a while to grieve that. Yeah, it can take a while for the relationship to be restored. However, I think we don't talk about how much it hurts because everyone is trying to form tough guy. Everyone wants to. It didn't hurt me that much. You know, it doesn't matter. You're replaceable. And I think we think about friends as replaceable. But. But some people in our lives hold such a great place in our hearts that if they were to leave that position, it would hurt. Right? It would leave a gap in your life. And I think we should be honest about admitting that. It doesn't make you weak. It doesn't make you. You know, I think in a culture of hyper independence and everyone is doing them and getting by and climbing up and when we talk about community, we have to remember that it comes with actually being attached to people. And attachment isn't necessarily a bad thing. As humans, we are craving connections. But when that connection is broken, especially unexpectedly or it is severed painfully, that is going to hurt you. So it's okay to admit that. Your second question though, why does it seem like everyone is cutting off their friends then? Right. I think number one, friendships are seen as disposable. We talk about this literally in like page one of the book literally, where we're like, listen, for a lot of us as women, we have been taught to prioritize romantic relationships in our lives and really optimize our life around the male gaze. But also we are in a capitalist society which teaches us that community is not important. Individualism is how you thrive within this system. And so it's easy to see somebody as a barrier to your life, even though they are sent to be a friend. And I think a community centered mindset is reminding ourselves that we're actually better together than we are apart. Right. But if you're living within a system which surrounds individualism, you aren't going to think like that. Or it can be very easy to fall into the trap of this person has made me feel uncomfortable. Or this person doesn't seem like they are a resource to my elevation. Therefore, why are we friends? You know, you're not worth my time and things like that. I think it can be a very. It can be a very commodified way of thinking about people. We can Commodify people. Like, you're not helpful to me. Move. I think that's one of the sad parts of this networking era. You know, your network is your net worth. We're treating people as though they are commodities, assets. Like, and I get it, people are valuable to us. But also people are people and everyone has an intrinsic value.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So I think people are cutting off people because like you said about this leveling up trend, people want to level up and they, we've been told the rhetoric of, oh, it's the people around you who are holding you back. What that does actually is speak to your pride and your ego because people love that story of you could be so much more than this. And the enemy to you reaching your potential is actually other people every day. It can't be you. It can't possibly be you. It has to be other people every day. And it's like, well, actually also the biggest asset to you reaching your fullest potential is also other people. So the answer here isn't to throw a blanket statement of it's the people around you. Now I get it. I am a big advocate for the people around you matter.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. But when we're talking about the people around you, we're not just talking about, again, this, the commodification of it. It's not just the rooms that they allow you to access and the world that they expose you to. It's your life. The quality of your life is determined by the amount of safety, love, care that you have around you, the support. And if people around you are incapable of providing you that, then that's a friendship you don't necessarily want. But that doesn't always look like the friend who's dripping in the most designer and going on the luxury holidays, or, or sometimes the person who loves, cares and supports you most is also the person who will tell you the truth about who you are. And if you cut them off because they told you the truth and you perceive that as criticism, you've actually lost an asset in your life because you didn't want to be uncomfortable. And I, I had a conversation with our friend Susan Deborahs on her podcast made for more about this and I A clip of it was posted by someone and it was, it did serious numbers. Right. It went really far. And I was basically saying when you avoid conflict in your relationships, in your friendships in particular, you are avoiding an opportunity for you to grow. It ruffles some people up the wrong way, girl. As it will, their people's feathers were rough.

[Renee Mathadon]

Really?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

That was such a. That's not.

[Courtney]

That's a very simple take on things. But anyway, we're going to talk about being super. Oh, that's another time. Another time. But I think because. And I'm nattering on by, and I'd really like to hear your opinion on this, but I think a lot of us have been trained to see any type of challenge that happens within our friendships as a reason to run away.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because our friendships, we have not been taught that they are worth fighting for. We have not been taught that our female friends are worth fighting for. We've been told to fight for romantic relationships, to fight for our marriages, to fight for our individual success, but we haven't been taught the importance of having community around us enough to do the hard work, to be the villager that we want in our village. Right. So we have to be the people who have developed enough, grown enough, and are mature enough to say, just because this friendship is getting hard or just because this friendship doesn't look glamorous in this season doesn't mean I need to end it right now. Because I recognize the value of the people. God has sent me into my life to help my life genuinely be better. Right. Whether it be my internal well being, whether it be my social life, whether it be whatever. Like, I think we forget that relationships do so much more than just grant us access into spaces. They literally are helping our souls to flourish. Right. When we think about rising rates of loneliness and the consequences of that, you need friends. You really do more than you actually know. You know, I was watching a Diary of a CEO episode and there was a doctor talking about the mind and she was talking about how genuinely we should all. I can't remember her name, but she was talking about how, you know, the brain is so important and brain development and how we can nurture and grow and protect our brains so that they can be the healthiest they can be. And she talks about how one of the biggest things to do deteriorate your brain is loneliness and lack of social interaction. Right. And these things can lead to things like dementia and Alzheimer's and lower cognitive function and ultimately shorten your lifespan. So it's more than even just, oh, you know, having friends would be cool. No, actually, your life depends on you having some kind of social relationships. Right. And so we shouldn't be so quick to cut people off. But I feel like it's very glamorous now to do it because everyone is protecting their peace. Oh, everybody is. I need to level up. So I need to let go of my haters. How is everyone a threat to your peace and everyone a hater? But you are great and benevolent.

[Renee Mathadon]

Surely the common denominator here is you.

[Courtney]

And I don't think we should. See, I think that's a very. I mean, I'll be interested to hear your thoughts. I think that's a very toxic way to see things.

[Renee Mathadon]

Listen, some of y' all want to

[Courtney]

be the main character so bad. This is not an action film. You are not somebody whose destiny is under threat.

[Renee Mathadon]

Oh, you're hearing La Dee Da in the background. There's a theme tune in the background.

[Courtney]

But yeah, please, I've talked a lot.

[Renee Mathadon]

No, not at all.

[Courtney]

Not at all. Why do you think it's so glamorous right now to have. To be cutting off.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah. To have no friends, essentially. Because that's what it is. You know what? It's making that distinction. Right. It's glamorous to cut off friends.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Not realizing that loneliness is also. That's not sexy. Loneliness is not. There is. There is. I don't know. And I hate it for us. I don't know why we have attached such a great shame and weakness in needing people. We need people. Yeah, we need. Bottom line is we need people. I love the fact that you even outlined the genuine biological need that we have for people. One of the top progress that people have. I didn't maintain my friendships. It's not even just, oh, my romantic partner. I did not maintain my friendship. We need friends. We need people that are not related to us, you know, people that we've chosen to be our family. People that have actually decided, no, actually, I want to do this life with you for no other reason than I love you, I care about you. Yeah. Do you know how transformative the power of friendship is in your life? That when people are like, I'm cutting off all my friends, you're the problem. You have to be. You have to be. You need to figure some stuff out. But I do think it's glamorized just because of how individualistic and how capitalist our society is. It always favors the narrative of the self made person.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Yes.

[Renee Mathadon]

There's something that's just so undeniably sexy about being the Lone Ranger. I don't need anyone. And because we have attached need with vulnerability, it would then follow logically for a lot of people. Well, I'm just going to remove and cut out that need. You can't.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's a biological function. You know, like when you're hungry, you're hungry. You can't cut out food. You can cut it out for a while, but then you will wither and die. There's a point. Thank you. There is a point. After fasting, even Jesus, after the 40 days, he said, let me best be going. It's best I get going as best I get going. It's a biological need. And science tells us that you can only tolerate this withdrawal for a period of time. And then you have to surround yourself and fulfill that need. Even water. If you don't have water for three days, my dear, it's curses for you. Your body will tell you that's what you need. But we've grown, we've created an environment where we're becoming resistant to our biological need for friendship and like genuine sisterhood. And we've replaced it with everything else that we could possibly replace it with. We've replaced it with the tangible stuff of like having the material goods of being that it girl, of being that boss babe, of dominating, you know, her field and all that. All of these, all of these positions that require us to dominate rather than relate. Because relation, relationship requires reciprocation and it requires vulnerability. Whereas domination is something that's very much about power. It is very difficult to remain all powerful when you are in a relationship. And I think for a lot of us as women as well, it is very difficult for us to then allow ourselves to give some of our power in these relationships because we're already so disempowered everywhere else. And so sometimes in our efforts to reclaim that power and we see that for quite a lot of like in so many different examples, in essence, we see this as a space to reclaim power wrongfully. Not realizing that there's more power in togetherness than in isolation. It's just so ironic. But I think it's playing into that sexy narrative of being the self made woman. Or like it's playing into that wrong cultural narrative that we have that you can only depend on yourself.

[Courtney]

Girl.

[Renee Mathadon]

If you depend on yourself, you go end up dead. No, actually if you depend on yourself. I even think about like this is such an extreme example. I think about like zombie apocalypses. Yeah. And like the walking dead. There are some people that can get far.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

By themselves.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

But the people that survive the longest,

[Courtney]

they're in a group.

[Renee Mathadon]

They're in a group. You know why? They have different strengths and weaknesses. Yeah. You can hate on that person. They snore like a trucker at night. You are scared, you are tired, but you need them. You know why because they have something that you don't, and vice versa.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

And sometimes it's not even just about their strengths and weaknesses, but actually their company.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's good to be in the company of others. It's good. It's good to have company. Like, I like your company.

[Courtney]

That's it.

[Renee Mathadon]

I get that. And also this. I'm an introvert.

[Courtney]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Okay.

[Courtney]

We can be silent in the same room.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's another thing that people like, you

[Courtney]

don't have to talk, bro.

[Renee Mathadon]

Every day, all my social battery is drained. Like, I think separately, I think that there's this, I don't know, this weird social narrative of, like, oh, it's so socially demanding to be around other people and draining. And I get it. Trust me, I've been there. I'm still there. I have my allocated social funds for the day, but there's still people that I hang around with that I don't. I'm not required to perform. A lot of us are seeing our friendships as places for performance. Can you really rest in your friendships? Like, you really need to think about, like, oh, who are the people that I am having around me? Not in a, oh, I need to cut them off. But more so have I created safe spaces in my friendships that actually just exist?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

In the same way that in a romantic relationship, the goal is ultimately not to perform, but actually to have a place of rest and respite. I think a lot of us are getting exhausted from our friendships because we haven't created safe places where we can be ourselves. And sometimes ourselves has nothing to give.

[Courtney]

Oh, girl.

[Renee Mathadon]

Sometimes I'll call you. I'm going to. I want to go to Costco. I don't want to say anything to you. Just come with me.

[Courtney]

I saw somebody, bro.

[Renee Mathadon]

I saw somebody on TikTok that was like, oh, when you're just hanging out, you've reached that level of friendship where you're just hanging out doing errands. This babe was getting her eyes checked, just optimistic. Yeah, I saw that.

[Courtney]

I saw that. That is what life is about.

[Renee Mathadon]

That is life. And when I say I want friends to do life with me, that's what I mean. I'm not here to perform for you, babe. Yeah, we can do the brunches. Yeah. We can look nice. Yeah. We can do the boss babe stuff. Yeah. But ultimately friendship really is about creating those places of rest and respite.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

And if you glorify cutting people off, you will never have a safe space. You will never have an oasis. You will find yourself in the desert, thirsty, hungry, and you have no place to put your head down because you have cut off all viable places for rest and respite.

[Courtney]

I completely agree with you, and I think it's because I don't think we've really deeped just how lonely people actually are.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's sad.

[Courtney]

The rising rate of loneliness is exactly that, rising. And it's reaching levels that are actually quite scary. I was having a conversation with the mentor the other day and she posed a question. She said, if you weren't to make it home today, would anyone know?

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[Courtney]

And it made me think about I'm so blessed to have people who if I went missing, they would realize hello,

[Renee Mathadon]

I have not heard from Corey, but

[Courtney]

a lot of people do not even have that. A lot of of people do. Not a lot of people. If they didn't make it home today, nobody would realize that they didn't make it home because of how isolated we've become as a community. Because of how individual we've become as a community. People might not realize that there's anything wrong with you until you don't show up at work. Imagine today, imagine, you know, but it really makes you think, who cares about your well being? Who cares about your existence? Who cares about the fact that. And I mean, how many people unfortunately end their lives because they think if I wasn't here, no one would care?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And whilst that might not be true and in that moment they're going through a serious war in their own minds to some degree, what would make us think that way? The fact that we haven't had people express how much they love us and we haven't also built relationships with people enough to know just how much we are loved and how much those relationships give us a reason to stick around.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And fight through things and, and keep on going even when things get tough. And I think that's why friendships are so important. They're more than just going to branch. It's more than just having people to. Yay. You know, with. It's genuinely people who give you a reason to keep living.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. And who remind you that, babe, your life actually matters because at the very least is impacting me. Who would I kiki with, you know, if you weren't around? Imagine, you know, things like that. So just to know that you are loved. And our friendships need to become spaces where we know that we are loved, but also we need to hold it in that kind of regard and esteem. And I think that's why it, it's sad when you see how many people are quick to cut off a friend. Now there are reasons why you should cut off a friend which we need to get into because. Well, actually let's get, let's get into it. Yeah, let's get into it because sometimes you do actually need to add a fresh.

[Renee Mathadon]

What's Courtney, tell me. I'm trying. I'm listening. The girls are trying to know because some girls are listening to this like, oh, this is all cute.

[Courtney]

It's not cute.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

Female friendship.

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

I love it. I love it. But there's some heers that need to get. That need to go. So I need to know.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Are they the ones that need to go or not?

[Courtney]

You know what? So my, my stipulation with this is always one. Is this person, is this person committed.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

To violating and abusing you? For example, this dilemma that we just had earlier in this episode. If you are committed to making me feel uncomfortable, unimportant, unloved, I don't care for you being in my life.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because I don't need a tyrant. I need a friend. I'm so sorry, but.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's okay. Don't be sorry. I'm so sorry.

[Courtney]

One of the. I always talk about it, but one of my favorite verses is, if you wanna. If you want friends, you have to prove yourself friendly.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it.

[Courtney]

If you want friends, you have to prove yourself friendly. And that lets us know what the consequence of being unfriendly is. Having no friends.

[Renee Mathadon]

Oh, I have no friends. I wonder why are you friendly, my

[Courtney]

dear, we have to start with the other one.

[Renee Mathadon]

Oh, the alarm is coming from inside the house.

[Courtney]

You have to start with yourself. What's going on there? You know, And I think it's easier to tell yourself, oh, I'm just misunderstood.

[Renee Mathadon]

No, baby.

[Courtney]

Oh, I'm just. No, baby. No, no. At least one person should be able to get on with you. Right. Even if you're both dysfunctional. As long as it clicks. Just have somebody you know. Please.

[Renee Mathadon]

Both of you.

[Courtney]

Stewing. You're dysfunctional, but at least you got one. Because you know what's also true. You know that verse that talks about that verse in the Bible that talks about how a demon leaves a place.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And he goes to find others. Yeah. Because even demons understand it's better if we do this together.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah. I was booted out. But I'm bringing five, six of our big boys.

[Courtney]

All of us. We can really rain. But genuinely, I think it's easier to tell yourself, I'm not the problem. But sometimes you actually are.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But on the flip side of that, when you meet a person who is genuinely problematic.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Explain to them this. What you're doing here is very problematic. If you want a friendship with me.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

I'm not gonna lie. Some of your basic fundamental behaviors are going to have to change. Right. Because personal development is important. If that person is committed to being wayward. Okay. That's the end.

[Renee Mathadon]

You must go on your wayward.

[Courtney]

That's the end. Because one thing about accountability, if it doesn't come with confidence consequences, it doesn't work.

[Renee Mathadon]

Good. Good.

[Courtney]

If you are going to hold a friend accountable, they also need to be aware of the consequences attached to their misbehavior.

[Renee Mathadon]

Thank you.

[Courtney]

It goes for any type of relationship. It goes with any type of dynamic.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it.

[Courtney]

I don't even care if it's your job letting people know if you violate these stipulations.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

If you violate my expression boundaries. If you violate Me as a person and my human rights. There are consequences. The first of which is my absence from your life. Yeah. Because I value myself even if you don't value me. I value me enough to say I will not stay here and let you abuse me.

[Renee Mathadon]

I gotta go.

[Courtney]

I don't give a heck.

[Renee Mathadon]

I gotta go.

[Courtney]

Who you are, how long we've been friends for, don't care what we thought we were doing here. I don't care anymore. This is a threat to my safety, right? My sanity, my mind. I don't need it anymore. Sometimes you have to be very honest about that. And so if somebody is committed to violating you, it's the end. It's the end if somebody as well is. Even if. Actually. No, I'm gonna leave it to those two. I'm gonna leave it to those two. What do you think?

[Renee Mathadon]

That's fair. That's it, girl. I completely agree with you. I think when it comes to, like, cutting people off, it's. It's. Sometimes it can be a tough one because there's also levels to their waywardness, right? So for some people, they do something that is very extreme. Like, it may be violent, it may be something that actually is, like, genuinely harmful. But then there's also the people that. I'll describe it almost like relational paper cuts, where they do small things that distress you, that then, like, you know, they build up. And now you're looking at this person like, I don't like you at all. So I think it is the first thing about, like, when you're cutting somebody off is you need to. We talk about this often, but you need to know what are your values when it comes to a relationship with somebody, like your friendships. Because sometimes people violate you without knowing what your boundaries are because you haven't expressed them. And that's something that's very normalized in the way that they conduct their friendships. Do you know what I mean? So I think for us as women, us as individuals, we need to have a vision and a blueprint for how we want to conduct our relationships. And even within that, we have to have space to have grace for people as well as understand that it's not a dictatorship. Like a friendship is not a dictatorship. You may have certain standards and values, but you also are working with somebody that's come from a very different background. The way that they express friendship might be very different. Much like the coming together in a romantic relationship, you have to compromise. You have to hear them out, and you have to be like, oh, is this something? Is this Relationship such that I'm willing to compromise on X, Y, Z. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. So I think it is also making sure that before you cut somebody off, make sure you've done the due diligence for yourself and for them so that there's no avoidance of that. It can't be something that's like a surprise for both you and for them. It needs to be a. You know, this is a progressive thing, and I think just like the criminal justice system. Yeah. If you're a repeat offender, we deal with you even more, actually. Okay, maybe the first time is slap on the rear, some community service, you know, a warning. You know, a warning. But nothing goes on your file. You know, I think the same way with friendships. It's like, okay, bit of a warning there. Nothing's on your. Your file just yet. The second time you do it, oh,

[Courtney]

I see that it's a misdemeanor.

[Renee Mathadon]

Ooh. And because you did it before, now that now there's a record. Before there wasn't a record. Now there's a record. You've done it twice now.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

The third time.

[Courtney]

Yeah. You're a pf. Edu.

[Renee Mathadon]

In fact, you have to go to jail. You get locked up.

[Courtney]

Right.

[Renee Mathadon]

And I think it is having a system of grace, but also a system of, like, consequences is very important, because if you don't have consequences, you don't have any kind of deterrent. How do you stop people from committing all sorts of violations? They would. They will continue to do it. So I think it's. It's definitely that. I think also an important thing is make sure you live by the standards that you also expect other people to live by, because for every person that talks about I'm cutting off, I've cut off so many people. You two, you've probably been cut off multiple times. You've probably been cut off.

[Courtney]

Someone's even thinking about cutting off right

[Renee Mathadon]

now as we speak. As we speak, somebody's looking at your picture here like this. You popped up on their Instagram feed and they're thinking, oh, darling, if I catch you again. Do you know what I mean?

[Courtney]

So it's actually so true.

[Renee Mathadon]

You got called self awareness. And I know it's a buzzword that we sometimes use or like, people use in general. Self awareness is not just about being aware of what people are doing to you, but also being aware of how you're affecting and impacting other people's lives. So if you're coming to me with a long laundry list of why you should cut off this Person's friend. You also should come to me with a long laundry list of how have you tried to address this situation before it's escalated to here. So cutting off, it can be a straightforward and it can be a, you know, simple thing, but you have to make sure you've done your due diligence. And you also need to count the cost. That's something that you have said multiple times that really resonates with me. Have you counted the cost of cutting the bridge with this person? Because when you cut something, a wound is left, even if it is something that needed to be cut off. Right. Like somebody gets infected, there's gangrene in their limbs or whatever. You cut that off, great, you've avoided the infection, but the wound still exists. So are you prepared to deal with the wounds that will stay once you've removed this person from your life? So when you are thinking about, I need to remove this person from my life and I want to do the cutting off, count the cost, make sure that the ends justifies the means. Because in that example, it's good that you remove the gangrene because that thing is going to spread and it's going to infect other parts, in this case, your life. It's going to infect other parts of your life. That means that you might actually be at risk of dying. So for the greater good, you had to let go of the arm. It's gonna hurt. Things are not going to. You're not going to have the full mobility that you once had. But it's better for the rest of the body that this, you cut this thing off now, or is it. Are you prematurely causing a wound that might actually end up not needing to have been the case of all. So you have to also be able to correctly diagnose if that cut is worth it to spare the rest of the body. Because for a lot of people, you make that cut and that incision, not realizing that the cut is going to cost you more to the body than actually trying to do a work of how do we save this, this tissue? I think about doctors, their mandate is I have to try and save as much as possible. Firstly.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Unless it is harmful.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

So I would say think like a doctor when it comes to your friendships. Can I save this? Is this worth saving? Can I do everything in my power? Is this harming me? Like, to what extent is this harm? Example, can this be transformed? Can this be changed? No, it's got gangrene, it's infected, it might infect the rest of my Body, it's gotta go.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

I'll take the limp over not having the two legs. You've gotta count the cost.

[Courtney]

You've got to count the cost. I love that. And I love that you highlighted some friendships. Can actually be saved. You know, as much as it's a casualty, you can actually save this thing, but it requires both of us to do the work.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

Right. I think the same analogy that you were using, when a doctor is given, you know, a part of the body that's been harmed. Right. They can do everything that they can do on their part to make sure that they can save this leg, for example, I don't want to cut your whole leg off.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So let me do everything that I can to make sure you can keep it. Sometimes they perform that surgery really well. Sometimes you save your friendship from really ending and just being destroyed. Right. But now it's on the part of the person whose leg it is.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

To actually do the work post surgery.

[Renee Mathadon]

Exactly.

[Courtney]

To maintain that restoration.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because you're not in the clear just yet. I think we experience certain fractures and pain in our relationships, and because they didn't end immediately, we forget that it is still sensitive.

[Renee Mathadon]

Good.

[Courtney]

It is still fractured. And now the aftercare matters just as much as the initial emergency surgery.

[Renee Mathadon]

Good.

[Courtney]

Right. So now we both have to do the work to make sure this thing does not get infected again, does not get harmed again. Because now it's even more vulnerable than when it was before. Right. Before it took a catastrophic accident for Rick to get into the vulnerable situation is in now. Now it's just in a vulnerable state. It could take one very small thing to. For the wheels to fall off. Just one small thing. And so now we both have to do the work as a friendship unit, as a couple, as a whatever, to make sure that we are taking care of this thing after the fact. Yep. I recently saw a clip go viral of a Nigerian actor.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Who said that, you know, I know this episode is about friendship, but he was talking about cheating and he was saying how, you know, cheating does. Cheating doesn't have to end a marriage. If your partner comes to you and says, I cheated on you, your first response shouldn't be how much they hurt you, it should be you helping them to get out of their situation. Now, obviously, I wildly disagree with that statement, but what I found interesting was the discourse afterwards. People were essentially highlighting that, hey, you're putting the onus on saving this relationship on the offended party.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it.

[Courtney]

And I think it's Important for us as people who want to save our relationship, to both want to save our relationship. We both need to save our friendship. We both now need to do the work. Once I've expressed that, hey, what you did to me really hurt me. Right? But I don't want our friendship to end. So my first response is, I'm gonna try and forgive. Then your response now is, I'm gonna try and not piss you off again. Do you get what I mean? That's how it goes. That's the ginger. Yeah. So we now aftercare together. We are both doing this.

[Renee Mathadon]

Don't even look at me too much because.

[Courtney]

And I think that's how you can tell a friendship or a relationship is going to survive when both people are willing to do the work, but especially the person who caused the initial offense. Defense. Yeah, right. Is willing to do the work to recover this. After the initial conversation, the initial confrontation. Now we recognize it's on both of us to do the work to make sure this thing can survive because now we are more vulnerable than we were before.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it.

[Courtney]

Right?

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it. And I think just even thinking about that example. Accountability is very important. And it is very important that if you are the offending party, you cannot be defensive. Emotional intelligence. When you have offended somebody and somebody has shared, okay, you. This thing you do, it rubs me out the wrong way. It drives me mad. Your initial response cannot be to be searching for the things that they do to annoy you too.

[Courtney]

I hate when people.

[Renee Mathadon]

That is one of the. No, no. I hear it because it needs to be said. Because that's the first thing you thought of when I've come to share this grievance with you. You is how I've grieved you.

[Courtney]

Are you thick?

[Renee Mathadon]

Why did it. If this grieved you, so why didn't you share it? Exactly. Why are you bringing it up now, the defensiveness? Because it's not just romantic relationships. It's it. One thing about people is they love to hold on to offense or they like to even. I know, girl, I know. They will manufacture an offense to justify why they were the offending party. So even in the example of like, like, oh, you know, romantic. I cheated on you. Oh, I'm really upset that you cheated on me. Well, I cheated on you because you weren't present. Not knowing that you made a active choice. A choice.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Because by the time that you have chosen this activity in response to this grievance, that means you've also chosen at that point to ignore any an alternative course of action to prevent you from going to that place.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Do you know what I mean? So even within the context of friendship, you sharing your grievance now is even annoying. It's pissing me off even more because to me, not only did you just do this thing to transgress my boundary.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

But you are holding something against me in your heart that caused you to this action that you could have chosen to enact differently.

[Courtney]

And also you could have expressed this at a different time if it got so bad for you. Right. As for example, one of the things that I hate is when you tell somebody like you said you did this thing to hurt me and then they tell you all the reasons why you push them to that not only are you victim blaming and I could be close to slapping you if Jesus didn't say to her the other cheek. And even that one, it's your cheek

[Renee Mathadon]

that will have to turn because, ah,

[Courtney]

I'm going to be the one doing the slapping. But even in that. Why didn't you tell me that my behavior towards you was pushing you to this far extreme before you got there?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Why didn't you tell me that it was so problematic for you or made you so uncomfortable, made you feel so. Whatever.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Before you got to making the choice, why don't you tell me at the initial moment it made you uncomfortable? And this is why I think within friendships, relationships, even relationships with our parents.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

We need to be quicker to tell people. I don't like that. Yes. Because the more we hold on to these things, the more people are pushing us and they don't know what they're pushing us. And the more we are pushing people, we don't know that we're pushing them to their limit. And I think it's because of this whole we want to be ply in. We just want to keep the peace. We want to. You're not keeping no damn peace. You are unsettled. Okay? There are just problems. And if you don't bring it up now, it's going to be a bigger problem when you bring it up in the future. Exactly. Because then the question is, well, why don't you tell me, do you get what I mean? And then people come up and they're like, oh, because at the time I didn't feel okay. But do you know how helpful it would have been if you gave me this piece of information six months ago

[Renee Mathadon]

before you took this course of action?

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? And so I think it goes both ways. If we don't want people to throw these things back in our face. We also have to be the people to, to say what's going on from the moment it happens. I didn't like that.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, I think one of the. We talk about letting things fester, but I genuinely think one of the reasons why friendships end is because we let things fester too long.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yes.

[Courtney]

At the initial emergence of your discomfort, you should have expressed that. This makes me uncomfortable. I know you want to keep the peace, but I am a firm believer that friendship should be able to handle somebody saying, I don't like that, you know, and it not make things awkward.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

We should be humble enough and loving enough to be like, oh, babe, I didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable. I'm so sorry. I won't say that again. Right. But again, we don't want to look, look silly. We don't want to look too sensitive. We don't want to be too vulnerable. But now the pain that you are harboring, the offenses, the things that made you side eye, you're harboring them in your mind and it's shaping the lens through which you view your friends. Right. They one sly comment about your outfit, maybe they weren't even trying to be sly, but you took it as, are you saying I'm ugly?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And now it's in your mind, but you won't say, babe, that was a bit harsh.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, that was rude.

[Courtney]

Do you get. I mean, that was a bit rude. I actually like this. Do you get what I mean? Because you don't want to say that, that you're now going to be feeling uncomfortable for a really long time. And now you're thinking maybe your friend is actually a se. Secretly a hater. And sometimes what we're calling discernment is actually our own suspicion and our own paranoia that's been cultivated because we have not expressed something that someone did a very long time ago that made us uncomfortable,

[Renee Mathadon]

Just suspicious.

[Courtney]

And if we had just addressed it in that moment. Yeah, we would have gotten to the bottom of it. Things would have been a bit different. But now, because we didn't, the person is continuing in their bad behavior and it's clouding the entire relationship. But you should have just let them

[Renee Mathadon]

know from the chart 100%.

[Courtney]

And I know sometimes we don't always have the language initially, but I think just being able to say like, kind of hurt me a little bit, you know, like my, my younger sister and I, we didn't always have the best relationship and we noticed that it Was often. Because I was often in the wrong.

[Renee Mathadon]

That was a lower case.

[Courtney]

I was often in the wrong. But she realized that a lot of times I would do something or say something or move in a certain way that wasn't necessarily negative towards her. It wasn't me being mean or anything like that. But it would make her feel some type of way. But because at the time, she couldn't find the language or the conf. Confidence to express why this was making her uncomfortable. She just let it happen. So then I would continue to do this thing, not realizing that this is triggering to her or this. This makes her uncomfortable or whatever. And after a couple of years, she was like, you know what I've realized when you do this, I don't like it. And I was like, babe, I'm actually really, really sorry. Like, I didn't realize because she's always just going with the flow. But it's like that saved our entire relationship with one another. Because I understood the thing I'm doing isn't making this relationship work. And so I think the quicker you can get to being able to express, even if it's just, you know, I don't like that. I don't know why I don't like

[Renee Mathadon]

it, but I don't like it.

[Courtney]

Something about that just makes me feel

[Renee Mathadon]

some type of way.

[Courtney]

Some type of way. And then that person loving you enough and being like, oh, my gosh, even if I don't know what I'm doing, I choose to believe that you don't think I'm trying to be me. Yeah, but you're now making me aware of how it makes you feel and how it's affecting our dynamic. Therefore, I'm really sorry I made you feel that way. And I'm gonna stop.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah, let me see something.

[Courtney]

I'm just gonna. Do you get what I mean? Because I don't want to continue. And the worst thing you can say is, well, that's just how I am. Okay, you be like that by yourself.

[Renee Mathadon]

You know, I am such a firm lover of repentance. Yeah. Like, I. Like, they really snapped when they found the word to describe what it is that you should do. Repent.

[Courtney]

The thing about God is he never misses.

[Renee Mathadon]

He never misses. Repent. It means to what? To change your ways. Do a turnaround, 360 degrees.

[Courtney]

Change your mind.

[Renee Mathadon]

Change your mind. I think the challenge and confrontation that repentance brings us, a lot of us do not want to acknowledge we have been so affirmed in our bad behaviour that for somebody to tell us, baby, I don't like that. Yeah, it's an affront to our identity by that point. No, genuinely, it's an affront.

[Courtney]

Do we want to hold on to bad things?

[Renee Mathadon]

Somebody will tell you, oh, the way that you said that, I don't like that. That's just how I am.

[Courtney]

I'm direct.

[Renee Mathadon]

I'm a sharpshooter.

[Courtney]

Do you think that helps you?

[Renee Mathadon]

I'm a sharpshooter. Why must you sharp and shoot? Why must you.

[Courtney]

Do you think this is helpful to your. Oh, genuinely, actually, you've actually brought up a very, very good point. Point. Why are we so attached to bad character?

[Renee Mathadon]

Why?

[Courtney]

Why?

[Renee Mathadon]

What do you think it like every day? I want to be contrarian. Why?

[Courtney]

Why are you so attached to this as your identity? Stop it.

[Renee Mathadon]

Why do you lack the necessary brain function? Why is it so hard for somebody to tell you that you're wrong? It's okay.

[Courtney]

It's actually pride. Do you know what? It's actually pride. At some point we have to acknowledge your ego is in the way. Okay? You are capable of doing wrong. And so if somebody brings up to you, hey, the way you reacted to that situation, I didn't like it. It wasn't good.

[Renee Mathadon]

I didn't like it.

[Courtney]

And your response is, get out of here with that. It is only a fool that despises. Correct. When the way that they are going is leading them to a bad end. That really makes me think of my younger sister. Yeah, her favorite phrase was, somebody is

[Renee Mathadon]

doing, oh, get out my face, bro.

[Courtney]

Get out my face, bro. Specifically, I despise it so much because I'm trying to help you. I'm trying to help you. And if you would just get past your pride and your ego, you would recognize that. The reason why I'm even telling you this is because I want you to thrive. I'm not your enemy. That the person who is trying to keep you in that bad character is actually your enemy again.

[Renee Mathadon]

Do you know what? We'll talk about it in bean soup. Hey, the soup is simmering as we speak. The soup is joking as we speak.

[Courtney]

Oh, next episode.

[Renee Mathadon]

Because the stew that people are in, like, just for somebody to tell you about yourself, we need to bring that back.

[Courtney]

And you know what it is, Renee? It causes you to lose decades. Because life is a level up. People forget that life is a leveler. Even if now you are living in some kind of denial. Give it 10, 20, 30 years, life will tell you you're an idiot.

[Renee Mathadon]

You're even lucky that if you make it that far, you're lucky because the way social media even acts. Yeah. The resistor bring up on you.

[Courtney]

Your life will tell you you've made some fundamental errors in your choices and your decision making. And oftentimes at the bottom of it is at some point somebody did try to tell you, but you didn't want to hear it. You were right in your own eyes. That is one of the most dangerous things and one of the biggest enemies of relationships in general. Like not romantic friendships being right in your own eyes. How many of us have had to cut our parents off because they are always right in their own eyes? How many of us are losing friends because we are always right in our own eyes? Your siblings despise you, but as for you, you're always right in your eyes. Your wife hates your guts or your husband hates you, but you're always right in your eyes. How is everybody wrong and you right?

[Renee Mathadon]

You. You must rest. The worst thing is they will now curate their community. So that whole confirmation bias I'm going to bring bring fan boys and girls fans, not friends. Because friends are the people that will tell you, babe, you're going wrong. Fans, they'll be clapping, clapping, clapping until you're full from grace.

[Courtney]

Then you'll realize and then where would they be? Where will they go?

[Renee Mathadon]

To the next one.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Renee Mathadon]

On to the next one.

[Courtney]

Anyway, if what they say, he who has an ear, let him hear. Because some of you see you're ending up in bad.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it. And if you don't hear, you must.

[Courtney]

What feels, feel, feel. But genuinely, friendship breakups, don't let your pride be the reason why you lose good friends.

[Renee Mathadon]

Just lay it, lay it to the side.

[Courtney]

Friendships. It's a game for humble people.

[Renee Mathadon]

Ah, hey.

[Courtney]

Good friendships are for humble.

[Renee Mathadon]

Let me say something, friends. If the good kind of people that you have around you, if you have good people around you, you will learn so much about yourself and you will become a better, a better person for it.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Renee Mathadon]

Don't let your pride stop you from using your friends as a mirror.

[Courtney]

Yeah, that's good.

[Renee Mathadon]

Your friends are there to reflect back to you. It's not even necessarily what your friends have to add. Your friends reflect back to you what kind of person you are. How have you been investing in their life? How have you been serving in their life? What have you done to help them grow and nurture and become better people? If you look into that reflection and you're not seeing the things that you were expecting to see, baby, you gotta, you gotta look at the source material.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Facts Source material.

[Courtney]

But some of you need to overcome your bad character. Sorry, but bad behavior is very bad. Like the way some people are acting now.

[Renee Mathadon]

Genuinely, I just. I think, especially in this generation, we just don't have people to tell us off anymore. And we don't have consequences either.

[Courtney]

People tell us, we just do our ears like this.

[Renee Mathadon]

You know that meme of Skepto.

[Courtney]

That's how we do, bro. Do you get what I mean? Like. Like that again. That whole being right in your own eyes. Like, I think our generation. Gen Z. Millennial. Let's have a chat. The oldies click off. Now let's talk a little bit genuinely. So many of us are getting to a place where it's going from confidence to arrogance to idiotic pride. You are so wrong in the way you act.

[Renee Mathadon]

Act.

[Courtney]

But you don't want anyone to tell

[Renee Mathadon]

you it's a horseshoe.

[Courtney]

Let me tell you something. Maybe you haven't heard it before. It will ruin your life. She's so, so sorry. If nobody wants to tell you, I'll be the one to tell you. There's a screen divided me and you can't.

[Renee Mathadon]

I don't even know I see your face.

[Courtney]

I don't know you. Let me tell you something for free. Pride and ego is the enemy.

[Renee Mathadon]

It is.

[Courtney]

It will ruin your entire life if you cannot take. Take feedback. If you cannot be told, hey, what you did was wrong. This is how you improve it. You will be stuck as this version of yourself for the rest of your life. And you will lose every opportunity, relationship, all the favor that God wants to pour upon your life. You will lose it all because you'll be known as what? A difficult person, A bad. A person of bad character. Everywhere you go, people just say, like, who is that? Why? Who?

[Renee Mathadon]

Why? A bad character is like a smell.

[Courtney]

And then people want enough for you to. I'm just telling you as a friend.

[Renee Mathadon]

I'm just.

[Courtney]

As for this one. I'm just telling you as a woman, when you step into certain places, people are like, oh, get that foul robot character away from me. Because you're bad. So I just want you to change your bad character. Just. I'm not telling you because people here be humble and take advice that they hear. They want. You want them to be a slave and a subservient goat.

[Renee Mathadon]

Babe, bean soup is coming.

[Courtney]

You guys are hearing things. Not everything is black or white. Sometimes it's gray. Yeah, it's gray.

[Renee Mathadon]

Sometimes it's just black or white. You.

[Courtney]

You. Sometimes things are just right or wrong. Thank you so much. And your bad character is bad. I'm sorry, I'm just someone needed to tell you today. Say that your character is bad as ruining your life. If you don't like it, you can scroll.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's bad. And if you keep cutting off friends, everybody is batty. Everything is. That's data for you. Common denominator, my dear, is you.

[Courtney]

And also sometimes the data is you're a great person and people don't treat you right.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it, you know?

[Courtney]

And that's data on who they are.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's true.

[Courtney]

But don't let that change who you are.

[Renee Mathadon]

Come on.

[Courtney]

If it's going to change who you are, let it change your boundaries. But don't let it change the love that you give people. Right. But yeah, my piece.

[Renee Mathadon]

Everybody changed their ways at the end of the story. Change aways. You need to do what? Repent. Repent. You're lucky I didn't do that in the Greek word, in the Hebrew today. Because we'll be here for. Anyway, sisters, we would love to know have you ever navigated a friendship breakup? Why? What are some legit grounds to cut off a friend? And for the sisters that have actually fought through their friendships, we need to hear more of your narratives because every day I go on social media, I cut off my friends brand. So for those of you that actually did the work to save your friendship, please comment like it's hot below. We want to know what are the tidbits and the tips that you have, Especially the sisters that have been friends for decades, years. Give us the play by plate.

[Courtney]

We just need to do it. Sorry, I was. Yeah, we definitely need to do a part two on this though because I think we've had that. Oh yeah, there's been seasons where you'd be like, okay, it's time to fight for our friends.

[Renee Mathadon]

It's time to put them up. Put a box of gloves on, you know.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Looking into the mirror. The source material is in the goddam right now. But we can clean our goddess.

[Courtney]

Well, I guess maybe to end it then. What are some ways that we have? What are the things that we had to do in order to save a friendship?

[Renee Mathadon]

Ooh, off the top of my head, definitely. Therapy helps.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

Sometimes it can be very easy for you to think, oh, like oh, the person is the problem or I'm a problem or whatever. Therapy affords you a third party view and helps you to understand why do like the way that you do and how is this playing out in the dynamics of your friendship so that you can you mentioned earlier on not having the language to articulate the problem. Therapy can help with that immensely because it gives you the language, but also the source. Right. Where is this coming from and how do I articulate this? I think radical honesty and vulnerability to the nth degree past the point of your, like, comfort. I think for a lot of women, it can be difficult to be vulnerable again because you equate, Equate vulnerability with weakness. You. If you want your friendship to survive, for those of you that actually genuinely want your friendship to survive, you have to be honest, radically honest, even past the point of the comfort of your friend. Because sometimes we can articulate things, thinking, oh, I'm protecting my friend, not realizing we're doing more damage because we're harboring resentment or particular feelings or whatever it is that will come out and leak out anyways.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee Mathadon]

So rather than trying to do damage control or process by yourself, sometimes you have to actually process in real time with your friend. It is what it is, is. And yes, both of you have been cut deeply, but you can also heal together individually, but you can also heal together by being honest about what is actually ginger in you. Like, that is so, so important. And then also realizing that healing isn't a linear thing. You won't always be able to articulate, articulate yourself and heal with the thing in the moment. So it will have to be like, progressive conversations. Especially if you realize, oh, the root of our contention is actually quite deep rooted. We're gonna need some time to unearth all of the different layers of this. And that requires a lot of patience because you may be thinking, oh, yeah, we're good, we're healed, blah, blah, blah. And then tomorrow you're like, oh, man, I'm still pissed. Or like, oh, man, this part of this hurt me. And you have to be able to process that, but then be honest with that. Even if it starts to rock the boat of what you thought was like, oh, we've, we've come to our homeostasis. Nah, rock the boat again. Let's do it again. We'll go again and again and again until you have built back up to the analogy that we were using was, you know, there's the vulnerabilities when you've, like, broken a bone or you cut deeply. Sometimes you have to do a movement that, again, that will initially hurt, but it will strengthen the bone so that you can put back to. You can get back to. Get back to that. So those are some of the things off the top of my head also. So, God you need. You need the Holy Spirit. Listen, we are not shy away from the fact that we're Christians. There are certain parts of yourself that can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit. Genuinely. It's not clawed, it's not chatgpt, it's not therapy. The Holy Spirit will tell you, babes, this part of you, you need to. You need to fix that. You need to change that or this is blocking you.

[Courtney]

You.

[Renee Mathadon]

Right. And I think you have to also believe. It was something that you said on one of our other episodes, that you have to believe that the same God that operates in your life is operating in the life of your friend.

[Courtney]

Yeah. And that's if you both know it.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's if you both know him. That one. You have to. That one. I'm speaking on a specific. I'm speaking about the friendship between myself and. Please.

[Courtney]

On the same disclaimer, please.

[Renee Mathadon]

This comes in different sizes.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Spiritual maturity is.

[Renee Mathadon]

There you go. No, exactly. And so sometimes it looks like you may be at odds with your friend, but you're still friends. So you have to contend with God in your own personal time for your friendship, but also for your friend. The last thing that I will say is you have to remember that everybody is human, because I think sometimes when you idolize, it can be very difficult for you to reconcile that your friend is human. And like, they have human shortcomings and they are also deserving of forgiveness to. Yeah. And I think that can be very, very hard, especially if you have a conception. You mentioned this earlier in the episode. When you have a conception of who your friend is and who they should be to you, sometimes when they don't live up to that, you have to be willing to say, oh, okay. Damn, I'm disappointed. Yeah, that's the feeling I feel. I'm disappointed in this person. I'm disappointed in the fact that they fell from grace. And I have to articulate that to them, but I also have to recognize. Oh, okay. Me too. I had this conception of them that may have contributed to such a descent. Yeah. It reminds me of. Sorry. This is completely long and tension. I've been watching a lot of content around climbing Mount Kilimanjaro.

[Courtney]

Oh, interesting.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah. And Mount Everest.

[Courtney]

Is that something you do?

[Renee Mathadon]

Absolutely not. The two things that I will not do in this life. Cave diving. What's that Climate. When you go into them little cracks in the ground like them caves and stuff and. Yeah, you will never catch me. Totally optional, by the way. But if you like it, then you like it. But the mortality Rate for all of these things are high. But when there was a documentary on Mount Everest and just how difficult it is to climb, Right. But there was a person that was commenting on doing the journey, and they said getting to the top is only halfway. You still have to prepare for the descent. And I think about that in the context of friendship. Yes, there are highs. Yes, it's a beautiful journey to go on with somebody, but are you prepared for the descent? And sometimes the descent can be even more steep because of how high the height is. So consider just how high a pedestal you have for yourself, for your friends, and how that may contribute to a very rocky descent should anything happen. And in, you know, Mount Everest, the anything can contribute to a deathly decline. There's a place called the death zone in Mount Everest. There is the altitude, there is the traffic jams. There's all sorts of things that contribute to when you get down, always rocky. So the halfway point is literally, you've gone to the top. Now it's about, how do we get down? And in order to get down safely, you have to make sure that the conditions at the top are not such that it's contributed to a rocky descent. So I think in our friendships, we also need to be like. Like, to what extent have I put this person at the top of Everest and made it difficult for them to navigate that descent? Should it happen in the context of our friendship? Yeah.

[Courtney]

That's so good. I love that. I love that.

[Renee Mathadon]

How about you?

[Courtney]

No, I think you've given the whole full guide. I think you've given a full guide. I think the only thing that I'll add is both of you need to commit to this process. Yeah, it's not going to be easy. Friendships fighting for your friendship is a journey, bro.

[Renee Mathadon]

You have to recogn the spirit.

[Courtney]

In fact, it is a journey of work, of forgiving, not fully being healed, taking up that pain with the person, and sometimes just dealing with it by yourself. It is a journey. It's a process that doesn't happen quickly either. I think we skip over how sometimes trust takes years to rebuild. Yeah, but are you both committed to that journey?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

If it's gonna take years, are you both in it for the long run? I think sometimes in our minds, we think, I want this friendship to work, but we haven't practically broken down just what it's going to take. And one of the things it's going to take take is time. And if you're not willing to commit to that journey, you're going to try and rush the healing process, and it's going to open up that wound. That's it over again.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's it.

[Courtney]

So if you're saying we're both going to fight for this friendship, are you willing for it to take a couple years? And you might be thinking, why has it got to take that long? You can't rush anybody's healing process. And depending on the depth of the betrayal or the pain or the hurt, we might have a lot of rebuilding to actually do. Yeah, we might have to do a bit of breaking down before we can do a bit of rebuilding. So are we both committed to this process?

[Renee Mathadon]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

You know, I think about, like you said, about counting the cost. If somebody is a developer, they recognize that the thing we're about to build is going to take time.

[Renee Mathadon]

Yes, man.

[Courtney]

Man. It's going to take a lot of time. So we have to commit to the long haul. We have to be in this from the jump and say, even if it takes a bit longer than anticipated, we have to make it to the end. Because there's no point in starting if we don't finish.

[Renee Mathadon]

If we don't finish.

[Courtney]

So be committed, sisters.

[Renee Mathadon]

Commit. Commit to each other.

[Courtney]

Each other. You know, we don't talk about that enough. If you're going to have. Have good adult friendships, it requires commitment. And in a generation of commitment issues. I know that word scares us, but if we want our relationships to actually thrive, we have to commit, Commit for the long haul. You know, it's not. It's not going to be glamorous. Not every season is beautiful, but what we make of it in the end. Oh, that's glorious.

[Renee Mathadon]

That's where it is. Yeah, that's where it is.

[Courtney]

So please, let's commit to our friends.

[Renee Mathadon]

Friends, if you're taking one thing from this episode, sisters, commit, commit, commit.

[Courtney]

Commit to the process. Commit to the friendship, because it's worth

[Renee Mathadon]

it in the end.

[Courtney]

Honest to God. Honest to God. Ain't nothing like it. But, yeah, you see, sisters, share your thoughts down below.

[Renee Mathadon]

Thank you.

[Courtney]

And make sure that you follow us across socials at. To my sisterhood, literally everywhere. And if you haven't subscribe to our YouTube channel, we're literally on the road to 100, and we would love to hear that soon.

[Renee Mathadon]

Please give us. Give us the hundred. Give us the. If you give us the hundred, we might give you. We might just.

[Courtney]

We've done it before, you know, we're good for it.

[Renee Mathadon]

Why does it sound like solicitation might give you a little bit. I love those. Memes that are like people dashing. Those are my favorite memes. Anyway, follow us on all platforms actually, my sisterhood. And of course follow us individually, my lovely, my wise bestie at CD B. And of course come and follow me over at Renee Mathadon.

[Courtney]

We love to see it. Well, sisters, make sure that you have an amazing week. We'll see you next Sunday at 8pm British summertime or whatever time.

[Renee Mathadon]

Whatever time. Whatever.

[Courtney]

That's the time. All right. But we love you guys so much and as always, keep glowing and growing.

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