The Dangers of Explicit Adult Content for Women: Overcoming Addiction, Trauma & Shame

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Dangers of Explicit Adult Content for Women: Overcoming Addiction, Trauma & Shame"

Podcast Information:

• Title: To My Sisters
• Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
• Episode Title: The Dangers of Explicit Adult Content for Women: Overcoming Addiction, Trauma & Shame
• Release Date: December 8, 2024

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Introduction to the Episode

In this powerful and candid episode, hosts Courtney Daniella Boateng and Renée Kapuku delve deep into the pervasive issue of explicit adult content and its detrimental effects on women. Titled "The Dangers of Explicit Adult Content for Women: Overcoming Addiction, Trauma & Shame," the episode serves as a reckoning—a sisters' meeting—to address addiction, trauma, and the pervasive shame associated with pornography consumption.

Personal Journeys and Vulnerability

Courtney begins by sharing her personal battle with pornography addiction, revealing that her struggle began at the tender age of ten. “[07:19] I made a video on my YouTube channel talking about a decade-long pornography addiction that I'd had that started when I was 10 years old." This act of vulnerability not only resonated with many but went viral, garnering nearly a million views and leading to a BBC documentary titled Sex After Porn Addiction.

Renee echoes similar sentiments, recounting her early exposure to pornography around the age of ten or eleven. “[13:37] I think it’s like...the majority of Internet sites are literally dedicated to pornography...” Both hosts emphasize the alarming accessibility and normalization of explicit content in today's digital age.

Impact on Mental Health and Relationships

The discussion transitions to the psychological toll of pornography. Renee highlights the addictive nature of such content, noting, “[10:40] When we do struggle with things, it highlights that we have weaknesses.” She references a quote by C.S. Lewis to illustrate the hidden depths of evil that consumption can foster: “[15:59] Don’t let fear cheat you out of your freedom.”

Courtney adds, “[19:03]...how pornography negatively affects young people and adults as well.” The hosts delve into how pornography distorts perceptions of sex and intimacy, leading to unrealistic expectations and challenges in maintaining healthy relationships. They discuss how objectification in pornography trains individuals to misinterpret consent, often equating a “no” with being played.

Societal and Cultural Implications

A significant portion of the conversation addresses the broader societal impact. Courtney asserts, “[33:13] Women should feel empowered around sex,” yet cautions against viewing pornography as a form of women’s liberation. They critique the pornography industry for perpetuating exploitation and trafficking, especially of young women and girls.

Renee raises critical questions about the normalization of explicit content, asking, “[13:37] Why is this also so accessible? Why is this so pervasive?” The hosts argue that society's permissive stance towards pornography fosters a culture where transactional and superficial relationships prevail, undermining genuine human connection and consent.

Feminism and Empowerment

The hosts explore the intersection of feminism and pornography, challenging the notion that consumption empowers women. Courtney states, “[30:43]...it really does show what we think about women in society.” They emphasize the need for true empowerment through education and economic independence rather than superficial sexual agency within a flawed industry.

Renee adds, “[44:11]...trad wifeism is just a rebrand of the same kind of narrative,” critiquing the performative aspects of traditional roles that still commodify women's worth based on male satisfaction.

Generational Effects and the Path Forward

Courtney and Renee discuss the generational impact of pornography, warning that without addressing cultural consumption, the negative effects will perpetuate through families. “[57:09]...your children are going to see a dysfunctional depiction of what a healthy marriage is.”

They advocate for open conversations, therapeutic interventions, and community support as essential steps toward healing and breaking the cycle of addiction and shame. Renee emphasizes, “[68:21]...you have a need, and there is a One that wants to fill that need.”

Overcoming Shame and Seeking Redemption

In their closing remarks, both hosts stress the importance of overcoming shame. Courtney encourages listeners to engage in honest conversations about their struggles without fear of judgment: “[69:04] Don’t let fear cheat you out of your freedom.” Renee reinforces the message of redemption, assuring listeners that “you are not beyond redemption.”

They advocate for creating safe spaces where women can express their vulnerabilities and seek support, highlighting the transformative power of community and faith in the healing process.

Notable Quotes

• Courtney: “[07:19]...there’s a mess. Like there’s a message in your mess, right?”
• Renee: “[13:37] Why is this also so accessible? Why is this so pervasive?”
• Courtney: “[19:03]...how pornography negatively affects young people and adults as well.”
• Renee: “[33:13] Women should feel empowered around sex.”
• Courtney: “[57:09]...your children are going to see a dysfunctional depiction of what a healthy marriage is.”
• Renee: “[68:21]...you have a need, and there is a One that wants to fill that need.”
• Courtney: “[69:04] Don’t let fear cheat you out of your freedom.”

Conclusion

This episode of To My Sisters is a profound exploration of the hidden dangers of explicit adult content for women. Through heartfelt personal stories and incisive analysis, Courtney and Renee shed light on addiction, trauma, and shame, advocating for empowerment through honest dialogue, community support, and a reinvigorated sense of self-worth. Their message is clear: overcoming the pervasive influence of pornography requires vulnerability, support, and a collective commitment to reclaiming genuine human connection and dignity.

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Find Out More:

• Follow the Hosts: To My Sisters on Instagram
• Watch the Documentary: Sex After Porn Addiction on BBC iPlayer
• Join the Conversation: Share your stories and support the community at tomysisters.com

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Forever.

[A]

There's a message in your mess, right? And as much as life is messy, there's a message here somewhere.

[B]

The younger that you watch pornography, the more that you harm your dopamine receptors and the more likely you are to suffer with addiction issues.

[A]

I think it's dangerous for us to paint pornography as women's liberation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When it comes to this sexual revolution, because actually a lot of women do not hold power within the pornography industry.

[B]

Those that forsake history are doomed to repeat it. Like, genuinely.

[A]

Hello and welcome to the 2 My Sisters podcast. I'm Courtney.

[B]

And I'm Renee. And we are your online sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.

[A]

We are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters around the world.

[B]

And in today's podcast episode, Sisters, we are having a reckoning. This is a sisters meeting. We are going to be talking about some serious stuff. We are going to be talking all things pornography, sex, women's bodies, shame, overcoming insecure. Like just the whole. The whole nines. The whole nines. I'm very excited for this conversation for very obvious reasons. Before we get into all of the housekeeping stuff, my bestie over here has recently been featured on a number of publications. Very Serious Stuff. BBC. Yeah. British Broadcasting. Where she has not only shared her story, but also her advocacy on behalf of young people, especially young women. And the problems that we are having with pornography, the problems that we are having with sex more generally in this culture and within this society. And we are using this episode as an opportunity to go a little bit deeper and have a very important conversation on all of these pertinent issues that are not just facing the people that we know out there, but are facing the people that we know in here.

[A]

I love that. Thank you, friend.

[B]

I'm very excited for this. But before we do that. We have to do all those housekeeping things. We have to make sure the house is swept and all the sisters up to date, all them things there. The main housekeeping kind of vibe right now is TMS in Ghana.

[A]

Yes, yes, yes. Please come along to the trip that we are doing in Ghana. So as you guys may know, or some of you may not, every year we do a TMS retreat. We literally gather girls from all around the world. From the States, from Europe, Australia, South America, like literally everywhere to come together in a country to really enjoy each other's company, build new friendships, rest, reflect, and just do a girls trip. A getaway. That is so wholesome and sisterly. And this year, well, 2025, we are going to Ghana. Let's go. Let's get it. Let's get it. Let's Ghana. I am really excited to be going home and I'm excited to be taking you for the first time.

[B]

Oh, my goodness. Guys, I've expressed it so much in these podcast episodes that I'm so excited to go to Ghana. Literally a couple of days ago, me and Courtney, we had a movie night. Yeah. And I had Ghanaian food. I've had Ghanaian food before. Yeah. But that I had been craving, like just African food. And I gotta say, I know the Nigerians are gonna come for me. So guys, sorry, I'm only half. Like, remember that? And all the them things there. Y'all got some good food.

[A]

We do that.

[B]

Watch that shit. That was the one that got it for me. That's. That's real sauce. Like, I had that with everything, guys. I had it with the rice, I had it with the beans. I had it with the fried jam that, like bury me with a side of shit. That stuff was good. So I'm ready to go back to the sa. The house, the home of shit.

[A]

Ready to go. Let's go, let's go. Give it all to us. Ben. Tilapia. Give us some what, Christy? All of it. Honestly, so excited to be going to Ghana and we want you to come along with us as we explore culture, a beautiful country and do it with other like minded women. And so if you would like to join the Ghana trip, which is happening in March 2025, head to the description of this video or the show notes of the podcast to find a link to sign on the Sorted Chalet website. That is our travel partners and they handle all things logistics when it comes to TMS travel experiences. And that's what helps us to make sure that it's safe, cost effective and fun. So if you want to come along, definitely do. There are just a few spaces. So, yeah, make it, make it quick.

[B]

We're going to have a good time.

[A]

That's the main thing. And also, sorry, if you came to TMS Live in London, go to your inbox and check for an email inviting you to a very special thing that we are currently testing, which we need your help with. We need 50 women to help us innovate a new product and we need you to join the platform so that we can get rolling in December and roll this out globally in January.

[B]

Please, with haste. Run, run, run, run. I know we're all in the period of slowdown, but at least run to your inbox on that one.

[A]

Help us.

[B]

And also, sisters, Christmas is fast coming, so if you haven't already thought about what you're going to get somebody for a Christmas gift, I would highly recommend the two My Sisters book y the seminal guide on friendship that me and my co host and best friend have written for you guys. All about female friendship and how to build lifelong, meaningful friendships. So if you haven't already, this is your opportunity, this is your excuse to be a good friend and purchase a book not just for yourself, but for a friend. Love that. So I guess getting into the meats and bones of the conversation. Yeah, let's go, let's go. Where to even begin? Okay, let's start with the fact that obviously, Courtney, you have been on the YouTube streets for a while now. You know, a good. How many?

[A]

Like eight years.

[B]

Eight years now. Eight years.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Veteran OG YouTuber. I think you're in the category of. Yeah, you're actually in the category of og.

[A]

You know what? Me and Sarah Destiny have a private joke about this thing. When people call us OGs, we're like, we're just in our 20s.

[B]

Yeah. And that's.

[A]

There are OGs. OGs.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? There's OGs that we've actually seen, like, create families and stuff like that. But you guys are og just because you guys are young, that means that when you started YouTube, you guys were young. 18 spring chickens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And we've seen you guys, like literally grow up, which is beautiful to see, but I think you are in the category of OG YouTuber.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

And you have seen the Internet at its best. Yeah.

[A]

And it's ugliest.

[B]

And that's its ugliest. So I actually want to take the conversation, starting with the ugly parts of the Internet and how you've navigated sharing your story, especially when it comes to something that can be as sensitive as pornography or just sharing any kind of quiet, sticky association or a shameful association that we often have with these kind of things. How you felt in that moment, sharing your story and then the response that you had.

[A]

Okay, cool. So in 2020, I made a video on my YouTube channel talking about a decade long pornography addiction that I'd had that started when I was 10 years old.

[B]

That went viral.

[A]

And that went viral. Yes. And it's crazy that that's probably one of the things that people most know before. Yeah. Okay, guys. I also went to school, I studied, I graduated from Cambridge. I built a school alongside my best friend. We've done things around the world for me. But y'all want to know before porn. But that's actually okay because I get why that story resonates with so many people. I think for me, vulnerability has always been a value. When I came to the Internet, it. It was actually purely for the purpose of sharing my story, sharing my journey, and helping people with that. I had tried to commit suicide when I was 17 after a really, you already know, like a really traumatic childhood. And adolescence was stressful, like working, managing, studying, people's expectations, family breakdown, trauma, abuse, everything. And life just got really tough at 17. So I was like, edit, end it right now. And that's what led me to finding faith, but also to really realize that, like, there is a mess. Like there's a message in your mess, right? And as much as life is messy, there's a message here somewhere. So I was like, if I can take this message to YouTube and just share. Because I think one of the things that drew me, drove me to that extreme was thinking I was the only one going through it. And I was like, if only there was someone who would just address the elephant in the room. It would allow so many people to exhale and be like, oh, okay, it's not just me. Cool. I'm not going to jump off this ledge. I'm actually going to address my problems in a healthy way, or at least feel seen. And so literally just started making vulnerable content on the Internet about relationships, friendships, education. And then in 2020, when the pandemic hit, obviously a lot of news articles were coming out around loneliness and how a lot of people deal with their loneliness and their isolation with consuming pornography. And as somebody who had overcome that at around 20, 19, 20 years old, after like a year of really doing this thing with God, I realized, okay, I have a story here. And again, there has to be a message in this mess. So I made that video, and I'm not going to lie, it was the only video I ever made that I was scared to make. I was scared to put out because I was thinking, what will my parents think? What will people think? At the time, very few people knew that this was something that I'd ever been through or ever consumed. And I think for me, the fear to relate to your actual question was, people don't assume people like me go through this. I've always been a high achiever, always been a high flyer. I'm a Christian, I'm a black woman. I am at the time abstinent and celibate, which I still am. And so having a conversation about sex doesn't really happen with people like me at the center of it. And so there was this fear of, like, what is everyone gonna think? What are people gonna say? But as I was kind of praying and refle about it, it was kind of like, but think about how many people this could help. Right. And again, that original mission of if somebody feels like they're not the only person going through this, maybe they'll excel. And so, yeah, put it out. Nearly a million views later.

[B]

Crazy.

[A]

And four years later, the BBC is now like, hey, y'all want to do a documentary?

[B]

Documentaries Wild.

[A]

But, I mean, it's the opportunity to contribute to a conversation. Right. And I think very similar to when I put the video out in 2020 to now, the reaction is often one of shock because I discovered pornography so young, at like, 9, 10 years old, and one of like, wow, so many questions. Where were your parents? You know, what was your childhood? Like, how has this affected your relationships? Like, even the BBC series is called Sex After. So it was exploring how does pornography obsession impact our relationships after, you know, the fact? And just realizing that, okay, there's a lot of conversation to be had here. But also, so many people, one don't think this is a woman problem. They don't think that women are watching sex or watching pornography when actually there is a huge rise in women who are consuming pornography.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

They also don't talk about how much pornography negatively affects young people and adults as well. Right. Like, we're not talking about how pervasive this kind of content is, how it really does warp our view of people. Not just sex and intimacy, but people. Right. And how it desensitizes us to things like abuse and conversations around consent and all of these things. So, yeah, I just realized there was a bigger problem that people were kind of skirting around.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think there still needs to be a lot more conversation in that space.

[B]

Yeah, no, absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that.

[A]

No problem.

[B]

I remember, you know, when you first put out that video, like, many years ago. Many years ago, as an OG listener.

[A]

But I think even within our friendship, though, we've had conversations about pornography and, like, just how as people who they wouldn't assume have ever watched pornography, we've watched pornography. Sorry.

[B]

We the baddest. We the illest.

[A]

So I think as well for you, like, what has been your relationship with. With pornography or just, like, sex in general?

[B]

I love that. I love that. And you know what? I think one thing that is really important in terms of what you said around, like, people being shocked is the fact that accessibility to things like pornography is so pervasive. Because very similarly, I would say probably around the age of like 10 or 11 is the first time that I came across pornography. So I think the natural response to that is, oh, I'm shocked. And, like, where were custodians, guardians, all that kind of stuff? And yes, that is a valid question, but I think there is also a valid question to ask around. Well, okay. Why is this also so accessible? Why is this so pervasive? Why is this so easy to get to and easy to access? And why is there so much of it on the Internet? I think I saw a stat about how much pornography is actually on the Internet. And it is wild.

[A]

It's crazy.

[B]

I think it's like, I don't even remember the stat, but it was something wild around, like, the majority of Internet sites are literally dedicated to pornography, people having sex with each other. And I'm not trying to be one of those prudes or whatnot, but I do think that there is something quite woefully wrong about society when sex becomes so easy to access in any form. Yeah, but yeah, in terms of, like, my relationship with sex and pornography, yes, I too have watched porn Confession, you know, clip this, you know, and I think it is important to have the conversation around who are the usual suspects, because everybody is the usual suspect. When you have, like, real, real conversations with people that you love, you realize, actually, I'm not alone. So, yeah, I started watching pornography probably around 10/11. And equally, it felt like a really shameful thing because you're dealing with the double jeopardy of being a black woman, being a Christian, being all of these things that we often associate with classiness and purity and all these kind of things. And yet there's something that you feel like you're hiding. Right. And as you said the. For me, I felt like pornography was a man's issue. So I even felt even more perverse watching pornography because I'm like, rod, like, do I want to be a guy? Do I want to be a man? It's just outrageous. And having to juggle this constant battering of purity culture, purity culture, purity culture, with what felt like a need for a release. I'll be channeled in a very destructive way. And it wasn't until I started actually doing the research behind pornography. Like, how did it come to be? Who are the people that I'm actually watching on the screen? That I realized this is not something that I actually want to be a part of. When I started looking at the rates of women in particular, that were part of human trafficking, or when I started looking at some of the unethical standards and behaviors that were happening, you know, behind the screen, I realized that this is not something that I could take pleasure in anymore. And I think it was actually a good kind of day or time of reckoning for me because it meant that I could actively fight against temptation and fight against evil.

[A]

That's so good.

[B]

I came across this really beautiful quote, it by C.S. lewis, and where he was talking about the difficulty of temptation and evil and how a lot of us don't realize how evil we are because we haven't tried to fight against it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We've only given into it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that for me, it was coming into my teenage years and actively, like, giving my life to Christ that I realized, whoa. Like, this thing that I'm partaking in is actually quite evil. Yeah. Like, yes, there is the release, and, yes, there is. I know there's the conversations and the debates around ethical pornography, but this thing is quite evil in what it produces in both women and men and the kinds of things that it has attached to it. And I realized, no, that's not something that I want to be a part of. And in the fight against it, I realized, this thing is really bondage. This is quite evil. Because the level of addiction, the level of desire that it had produced in me, I realized. And that's why the CS Lewis kind of quote was so pertinent for me. It was because I'm actively trying to resist this, and it's really difficult. I realized just how bad it is. Like any other addiction, like smoking, like drugs or whatnot, oftentimes you don't realize how bad the addiction is until you actively try to free yourself from bondage. And that was my journey with pornography. Realizing that There was an addiction there. Realizing that I was, in most respects, bound.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that it was also starting to change my relationship with myself and with people I had around me. Would definitely love to hear your thoughts on it. And I know that we've spoken about it as well, but the objectification of women.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

This now pressure, even though I was within this purity culture, space and ecosystem to come across as overly sexual, to be desired, suddenly sex to me was not about my gratification or about, you know, this loving thing that happens between a couple, but becomes more and more about how I can push boundaries and how I can make sure that I'm desirable to my partner and how I can be used in all of these ways that in my heart, I felt really uncomfortable with. And the worst thing about pornography and any addiction, to be fair, is that you will never get the first high. You will only find yourself chasing that same high the first time that you did it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then you find yourself in more and more depraved spaces and situations and. Listen, I'm not trying to kink shame people. Listen, I know we all got our things going on. You know, we got our things that we like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when your desires start to look illegal, when your desires start to look incestuous, when your desires are actively putting other people at home, that's when you. That's it needs to be addressed. But also you need to realize that what you're doing is next door is in the neighborhood to evil.

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.

[B]

But I'd love to hear what your. Your thoughts are on our relationships and how pornography can often have an impact on our sense of self.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But then also our relationships with other.

[A]

Yeah. I think firstly, thank you so much for sharing that and being really honest. And I think there are a few things in what you said which are interesting, which is one like, you know, not to be a prude, not to be prudish. And I think when you start talking about these issues, especially because we are people of faith and we have, you know, religion and that informs our morality and stuff like that, people do often label you as all your prudish. All your, you know, you're backwards, you're too traditional, you're not modern, you're not, you know, you're not liberal enough. And I think statistics continually show the negative impact of pornography consumption on intimate relationships, on male biology, on female, like women, and opposition in society. And really and truly, when you look at a society. Right. If you want to really know what they think about women, you have to look at what they consume about women. And if a lot of the media we're consuming about women depicts women in this way, right. Not just as sexual beings, but as sexual tools. Yeah, right. As sex toys, as just sexual objects and sexual beings, it really does show what we think about women in society. And so I don't think it's a surprise that as women are watching this, they're also being informed that, oh, you are just a sexual being and your value is in your sexual performance. And sex becomes about male gratification and how much you can please a man and how far you're willing to go. And it also encourages. Encourages men to push, push, push, push, push that line into some, I'll be very honest, perverse things, right?

[B]

That word is perverse.

[A]

They're perverse things, right? Which is often within society just labeled as exploration. But really it's exploitation. Like, you don't know how to. That's why we're having so many conversations about consent. Because how many of your favorite porn videos feature a woman saying, no, no, stop. Oh, my gosh, stop, stop, stop.

[B]

You know what I mean? No, no, no. Keep going, keep going.

[A]

And that's training a lot of that. No means no. And so when you actually communicate a no, sometimes it's taken as you're just playing hard to get because pornography trains us to perceive that no as actually, I want more. And so that's even how it impacts something as simple as consent. Right? But then there are other bigger things it feeds into. And I know some people may feel uncomfortable with what you said around that word of evil, Right? And a lot of people, obviously, evil is a moral word. It's a moral term. And a lot of people will not look at themselves and think by their own judgment and standard that they are. Are partaken in evil. They are a, you know, purveyor of evil or anything like that. However, when we think about some of the things we are participating in, such as fueling the porn industry, we have to realize that we are fueling and peddling an evil which is overwhelming the world at the moment. And I think something that people often neglect when talking about pornography, they're often talking about individual consumption, right? Like me going on a porn site, you know, and flicking my nib. Right. But actually flick in the bean. But actually we're having a serious conversation.

[B]

We just don't have any, like, good terms, you know what I mean?

[A]

Masturbation.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's masturbation.

[A]

But what you're actually doing is that View that. Click. You being on that website is feeding into an industry. And we don't talk enough about the, the predatory nature, but also the capitalism and the greed that exists within the pornography industry and how each of us feeding into it and consuming this pornography is actually fueling an insidious, evil industry of trafficking. As you said, you know, when you really do your research into these free websites or even if you pay for porn, and I know you mentioned ethical porn, which I think is worth having a conversation about when it comes to, like only fans and sex work and women kind of taking agency over this industry. That's another conversation which I definitely think we should lean into. However, when you look at the industrialization of pornography, you realize it's exactly that. At the heart of it is an industrial complex of we need to make more money. And what makes more money is more clicks, more attention, more eyes. And so even if you're not paying for your pornography, someone is paying for it. And it's not just, just a person paying with money, it's somebody paying with their life. Like the person who you're watching on screen, not only is their dignity being destroyed, so is their actual life. A lot of what exists within the pornography is human trafficking, right? Child exploitation. A lot of the people you're watching, you may think, oh, it's, you know, adult content, so they must be adult. A lot of them are children, a lot of them are teenagers. A lot of people who are trying to escape really tough backgrounds, right, who are trying to seek better pastures and find themselves caught up in something or with someone who is exploiting them for money. And so it's not as empowering as we're taught to think it is. And I think that's a really dangerous thing that's emerged within our culture, which makes you think that your individual use of pornography is empowering when actually it depowers somebody else. And it completely uses them in a way that doesn't give them any power whatsoever in that situation. And so I think this on demand culture when it comes to sexual sex is really, really, really dangerous. Really dangerous. It impacts, like you said about the question, like, how does it affect our intimate relationships? If you live in an in on demand sex culture, if you live in an on demand sex culture, what do you think that does for your sex life? What if your partner doesn't want to have sex that day? Boy, what are you going to do when you live in an on demand. I can just click, I can just pay for it culture, right? What do you do when Your partner says no. What do you do when your. Your partner's like, I don't feel safe in this situation. Are you even conscious of making your partner feel safe in sex? And I think the objectification of women doesn't just happen in our own eyes, but we've also started to objectify men as well. I know so many women who have expectations of men, which are completely unrealistic when it comes to sex.

[B]

Boy.

[A]

And we just think that, you know, men are always ready and gagging and all. They always want it. Meanwhile, erectile dysfunction, which is also a huge result of excessive pornography consumption and excessive masturbation.

[B]

What's the male version of flicking the beam?

[A]

What is it? I don't know. Wanking, basically.

[B]

That's such a bad word.

[A]

But people are doing it. And I think sometimes, like within our circles, people love to act like it's not happening. In the church, people love to act like it's not happening, even though in.

[B]

The church it's even more rampant.

[A]

It's even more rampant, right? So we need to open up conversations about these really uncomfortable, you know, tongue and cheek issues. But ultimately they are the things destroying not just us, but young people, right? Young people and families. Like the family unit is the cornerstone of society, it's the cornerstone of culture. It's where a lot of us learn our values. It's where a lot of us learn our worth, our identity, things that are central to a human being's navigation in this world. If your family unit is already riddled with family tension, riddled with somebody who has an addiction, riddled with people not feeling safe, what do you think that's going to do for your future? But also, if you as a child are exposed to pornographic content, how does that shape the way you view other human beings and the way you grow up to view yourself? So I think for a lot of us, like, for me personally, in watching pornography, I had a very similar experience. Suddenly you become. You try to become the maddest sex freak, when actually that's not you, babe. And it doesn't have to be you either, okay? Because it's extremely unrealistic. The images that are also portrayed and the scenes, you don't know that these people are pumped up on drugs, pumped up on Viagra. People are having to take breaks. There are breaks between these cutscenes. Like, people are not even happy with what it is they are doing on the screen. But because it's this perfectly put together production, you're made to think this is what sex is meant to be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's not what sex is meant to be. And if we don't learn one, stop objectifying people and start seeing people as human beings will never commit, connect on an intimate enough level to have truly fulfilling safe sex as well as a lot of us are going to be projecting these unrealistic expectations onto people. And it makes people feel like they are constantly not enough.

[B]

They. I love that you said that, Courtney. I love that. Because honestly, the way that it fuels insecurities in both men and women in is so alarming. And I feel like we see it even in the modern dating space today.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Absolutely. Just a whole bunch of people that are fueled by insecurities. I love also that you said on demand culture because I was listening to one of the episodes by Diary of a CEO. He did like a three way conversation with advocates for pornography and then advocates against pornography. And one of the stats that came back was this idea of the younger that you watch pornography, the more that you harm your dopamine receptors and the more likely you are to suffer with addiction issues. Not just of pornography, but actually other things. Yeah. And it really does make me wonder, wow, society, we really don't know the power of delayed gratification. We really don't know the power of commitment. We don't know the power of waiting on things. We don't know the power of consent. We don't know the power of connecting with people based on their humanity and not their capacity to give us or do something, something that we want. And it's such a shame because I think that is part and parcel of why families are being destroyed before we've even had a chance to make or form families. You have these woefully wildly insecure people that are actively looking for transactional moments of sexual connection, not realizing that it's really destroying the families before they've even started. And a lot of us are actually coming from destroyed families.

[A]

And this is the thing, like we don't talk like as much as we can talk about the problems of pornography. A lot of people are running to pornography because of their problems. And we have a whole generation of people who don't know how to process through their problems, process through their trauma, process through their stress. Right. Actually emotionally regulate, which is why they're running to pornography for medication. They're running to pornography for some kind of soothing and simply a coping mechanism. And a lot of people don't know how to communicate these things to one another. So as soon as they find themselves in these times of frustration or high Stress, and that's what they run to. And then, like you said, it then oppresses them, it then binds them. And we think it's giving us liberation and freedom and a release when actually it's just putting us in a tighter bind as well as affecting our futures.

[B]

It's actually so upsetting.

[A]

It's oppressive.

[B]

No, the word really is oppressive.

[A]

Oppressive.

[B]

It's oppressive institutionally, but it's also. Also oppressive individually.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

So I want to talk really quickly around women and pornography.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because as you mentioned earlier on in this episode, we often see pornography and the pornography epidemic as a man's problem. We think about some of the stats and the data on pornography consumption, and a lot of it is skewed towards men and men's consumption. So talk to me a little bit around women and pornography and not just the objectification of women as participants within the porn industry, but also how it damages or how it can impact women that are also viewers and consumers of pornography.

[A]

Yeah. So I think from the participation angle, like, I think the big context and caveat to this is women should feel empowered around sex.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Women should feel as though they have agency over their own body, their own choices, and choose what governs how they navigate everything concerning themselves, their sexuality and their participation in sexuality. So I'm a big firm believer in that. However, I think it's dangerous for us to paint pornography as women's liberation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When it comes to this sexual revolution. Because actually a lot of women do not hold power within the pornography industry. That part we need to be really honest about this like women do. Just because you're seeing a girl doing all the moves on a porn video doesn't mean she's in a position of agency or power or authority in that. That scenario or in that incident. So I think one really reframing what we conceptualize agency, power and authority as when it comes to women and sex. And I don't think the answer to this is, you know, hyper purity culture either. And really policing women. And no, you shouldn't do this, and that makes you a bad woman. I think it's really allowing women to feel empowered by things that are empowering. Education, economic empowerment. Right.

[B]

Part. Right. You mean basic citizenship, human rights.

[A]

Right. Things that allow people to make an educated decision about their lives without being deceived, manipulated, or feeling as though they are so powerless in a situation, there is only ever one option. Right. And so I think that's what true empowerment looks like within the pornography space. And also we need to address the Amount of exploitation that exists within the pornography industry which disproportionately affects women and young girls. Girls. Why is that happening? And there are so many layers to that conversation is having these kind of conversations about how we safeguard women and girls in particular, and how we can actually empower them educationally and economically to make sure that to some degree they're not running into these situations. But also we need to address why people victimize them so much in society. And again, this is the crux of feminism. These are the crux of feminism. When we look at the people who are most disproportionately affected by gender based violence, it's women and girls. And so we have to have this conversation about why we view women and girls as lesser human beings and therefore inflict violence upon them.

[B]

Mic drop. Well, guys, if you would like to donate to the ministry that is TMS ministries and people don't like to talk.

[A]

And you know what's funny though as well, I think faith plays a huge part in this because sometimes we don't love to address that. A part of our mind that needs to be renewed is the fact that we have been coached by society to objectify women so much, to just see women as sexual beings, to just see women as a product for male consumption, that actually we need to renew our mind on that and start seeing women as image bearers of God and women on people who need to be treated with as much dignity, respect and honor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As we do men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And I think that that runs within our society from the highest, highest institution. I mean, look at the President of the United States. Not to draw him out, but some of the things that he said, said towards women and the misogyny that we allow as jokes, culture, you know, just locker room talk, and it's like, no, it's misogyny. It's scary. It's actually very, very scary. And it's dangerous. It can lead to dangerous things. And so whilst I understand that no one is perfect and we all have unlearning to do, we should really commit ourselves to doing that unlearning. But I think from a consumption point of view, women need to realize that the same way, way like you're saying pornography alters the mind. Like it actually alters your mind's chemical composition. The way your neuropathways forms will be changed and altered by the amount of pornography that you consume, which affects your impulses, your ability to control your own desires, your ability to actually withhold from doing certain things. When we are looking at certain. And this isn't just confined to pornography. When we look at even the rise of short form content, right? And our continual consumption of content, content, content on demand content. The fact that we don't really need patience in this society for anything anymore. Have you also realized that. And I'm this may be causation or it might just be correlation. The rise of adhd, attention deficit issues. We need to be careful in thinking that everything is innocent and doesn't have a result. Everything will have a result. And I think as we are getting older, as society is progressing, we are seeing the negative impact of it more the fact that it's very hard for people to even conceive waiting and patience and delayed gratification. Like we really struggle with it because we've been coached into thinking, but if I can have it now, why wouldn't I have it now?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

As if having it now also doesn't come with its own downfalls and shortcomings. Let's be honest. Not every sexual appetite and not every sec. Not every sexual craving needs to be satisfied.

[B]

Oh boy.

[A]

And this is. We have a culture that's making room for almost everything nowadays.

[B]

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[B]

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[B]

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[A]

LinkedIn.

[B]

The place to be. To be the pedophiles.

[A]

I'm just being honest. I just want us to really platform this issue. Because when. When you give the devil an inch, he will take the whole house, everything, boy, come and take over the entire territory. And as much as we say, oh, but we have a hard boundary against pedophilia, or we have a hard boundary against it, I'm not saying we should all go back to the past because I know women, like, we used to be slaves, but when we look hundreds of years ago, we also had a hard boundary against stuff like this.

[B]

And this is, this is the thing. Listen, those that forsake history are doomed to repeat it. Like, genuinely, we. This is why it's actually important to study history, guys. And not as like a formal thing, but genuinely, you need to go back and read and listen to things. And in that consumption of content, I think the content that you should consume is that of the past and things that happened in the past, because that gives you so much context as to why things are happening now in the way that they are. I love that you indicated that. You know the fact, fact that boundaries are porous and they change.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You may have a hard stance on something now. I'm telling you, give us a good 20, 30 years.

[A]

It'll be normal.

[B]

It'll be normal.

[A]

Normalization happens over time.

[B]

It happens over time and it starts with the small.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

And then it snowballs into the big. That's it. And I think that also mirrors, again, pornographic desires. You may start off with, I'm just watching people, like, have sex. Or I'm just watching people engage in some kind of sexual activity. And then. I'm not even going to lie to you. I'm sorry. In fact, no, I'm not sorry. Because this is actually informed by morality. No, no, no, no. This is informed by my morality and thinks that it says in the Bible, because I am a Christian.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But when I started seeing, like, people are clicking on, like, incestuous.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as in, like, those are the rising categories. Those are. Let's not just be like, oh, it's just a small niche sex of people. No, no, no. These are rising categories. Rising search terms. Right? Incestuous sexual acts. Guys, it's immorality. And, like, we need to be careful about how far we are allowing the boundaries of our morality to slip.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I completely understand. The past is not perfect. However, let's not act like the future is bright at this present moment. Listen, we need to be honest.

[B]

This idea that modernity is inherently progressive.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

You think that we're getting better.

[A]

No, we're progressing towards health. Not all progress is in the right direction. Not all progress is in the right direction.

[B]

Step further away from the lights.

[A]

And that's the thing. It's like we do need to engage in conversation because we are a generation and we are as human beings, we love to swing between extremes.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's either extreme policing and purity or it's extreme liberality and everything.

[B]

Do you know what I mean?

[A]

And it's like there's somewhere in the gray. We can all agree, we can laugh. Right. And whilst we may hold personal differences in our opinion, there are certain things legislatively we should be using to control people and. And to maintain people's safety.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Especially vulnerable groups.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think we don't do that enough at all. And I think it's even what you were saying about, like this progression towards more extreme content. It literally is because your brain is seeking that first high. And now it takes more to get you there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It takes more to make you feel that release. And then you start to watch things that you're like, I don't even like this, but I need it.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

And that's the bondage that we're talking about. That's some of you as bondage. And we need to stop watching that as well. But that's the. Not to kick shame. But that's the oppressive things that we need to start. You know, but even though we need.

[B]

To challenge even this notion of kick shape, some of these kicks need to be shaped. Some of them.

[A]

We'll talk about shame in a second. But yeah, I think for women, more like broadly, and talking about our consumption one, I think it's important for us to acknowledge women can have these issues too.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And also we need to approach women with care and sensitivity and empathy when we talk about these problems.

[B]

100.

[A]

Because it's easy for them to just become demonized. When you start talking about women who participate in sex work or consuming sexual content, it's easier to just think of them as the jezebel or the woman who's just too far gone for any kind of redemption. But I think every woman's story deserves to be honored. And it just takes us listening with it and creating safe spaces for women to come and be honest. Honest. Whilst we can all, you know, disagree and have different views and stuff, I think at the end of the day, viewing that no matter what anyone is a part of or whatever, you know, how however messy their story is, everyone is a human being that deserves to be honored.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so listening and taking time to really create space for women to be honest about some of the things that they have been through, because these things are never surface level. There are so. There is so much depth to everybody's story that we need to be honest about. And I think it's also just not judging women, man. Like, women are so heavily judged. And when we come out and we talk about our struggles, it's like, whoa, yeah, as a woman, how can you. Yeah, because. And I think it. It really links into something we talk about in our book, which is perfectionism. Women are constantly plagued with this idea of being perfect. These perfectly consumable women. No, a lot of our stories are rugged and rough around the edges, and it's okay. And a lot of us are struggling with certain things. A lot of us are doing things we may not even want to be doing. Our report up in, things which feel extremely shameful but are dangerous to us. And we deserve to not be in danger.

[B]

You say that, and it sounds so basic, and yet it's so revolutionary. No, genuinely so revolutionary. We deserve not to be in danger because we are the ones that are actively in danger. And I think what's also really interested around what you said, what really made me think. Think of. Is our duty, even as women, to make sure that we are not perpetrators of internalized misogyny. Right. Because oftentimes a lot of these women that are painted as jezebels or, you know, home records and all that kind of stuff are. Obviously, everybody is accountable for their own actions, but they are swept up in. In culture. And if we don't have safe harbors even amidst ourselves as women, then women truly have nowhere to go. So there is a responsibility within our communities, within our spaces, to make sure that the woman can truly not be judged. She can be held accountable, but she's not to be judged. And the tenderness that a lot of these women need after living a life where they've had to be rough around the edges because the roads that they're traveling have not been sanded down yet. They really need that. And it. It gives rise to things like pick meism and us trying to be the most desirable, especially with misogyny and capitalism. It's like, how do I make myself the most desirable? Terrible. And then we end up with these ridiculous archetypes. Or again, the sex worker, the sexy babe, the girl that's appealing to all of, you know, modern society and male consumption. And then you have the pick mishas who are out here. No, because we gotta call them out too.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

The pick mishas that are wearing, you know, the houndstooth aprons that are making cupcakes and whatnot. I think it would be interesting to talk about. About as well. Maybe a bit later on in the conversation. But the rise of things like trad wife content and this return to conservatism and how there is a thin veil of almost. A thin veil of almost resentment towards what we thought was liberation, especially for women, and almost like a backlash towards. Towards this idea of again, sexual liberation for women. But yet simultaneously, we're still holding a lot of the women that stay in that space with such contempt. Yeah, it's almost like a. Yeah, just maybe that's even an episode in. Of itself in terms of the return for a lot of people to conservative ideals and traditional roles and all that kind of stuff. And how me personally, I don't. For a lot of people. And a lot of the content I've seen, it doesn't seem. Seem genuine or authentic at all. It seems performative.

[A]

I actually think, funnily enough, the performative trend of trad wifeism is actually just a rebrand of the same kind of narrative that only fans Girls Upper should do. Sunflower said something which I don't completely agree with and we'll have to unpack. When she was talking to ZZ Mills.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she said marriage is just traditional sex work. And whilst I believe in the divine institution of marriage, I think when we look at the way the trad wife trend depicts marriage and being this performative type of woman in order to get provision for a man. It's the same thing about just satisfying a man's desires in exchange for security, financial provision and all the things that you want. So I get how to some degree, if it just sounds like glorified prostitution, if we're being honest. And I think it all is under one spirit, which is this idea that women have to perform for men's satisfaction. And that is the pure reason they exist, which is not true. And that completely denies the dignity of women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And I think we need to be careful with online trends. We need to be careful with online narratives which should suggest that women and it. And to be fair, I get why it merges though, because that's how women have been made to feel. Right. Like prostitution and stuff is the oldest trade in the book. It's the oldest trade in the book. So we need to address demand as well as we address supply. And I think that's the biggest thing that sometimes rattles me about these conversations. We don't have these conversations with men enough when we're talking about men and their Consumption of pornography. We often talk about, like, what men are going through, and we deny them of taking responsibility for the fact that they are perpetuating a cycle that keeps women trapped in dangerous situations as well. And their participation in that work to liberate people too. Like, men are needed within the feminist movement because you hold the power to end these kind of cycles probably more than the women do. So whilst we can have these conversations within women's circles, we also need to broaden it up to have conversations about men, about, what are your expectations for your wife? What are your expectations for your girlfriend? What is your expectation, expectations for your daughter? What. How do you teach them to be women? And how do you support them to be empowered women, truly empowered women within society? Or do you just treat them as people who exist to satisfy your every need? Right. Not just sexually, but simply tools in your vision? And I know this whole narrative of, oh, a woman is the helper, a woman being the helper doesn't make her an accessory to a man's life.

[B]

So good.

[A]

She's also a created being. She's also a woman with a purpose. And her purpose isn't just to help. It's also to. To excel in every gift that she has. And her safety should be protected because she's a human being. Your dominion extends to the fish of the sea, the earth, the sky, cultivate it and all of that. But this woman that I made, you don't have dominion over her. And the same for the woman. You don't have dominion over the man. I didn't say that's your realm of dominion. Yet we see a lot of domination happening over women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's wrong. That's not God's order for things. That's. You don't have rights in that space. And so I think we need to have more conversations about that, especially within religious circles, because I don't think we explicitly teach on it enough. And I think the teachings that we have have this very dangerous. Some. Some of the teachings we have have this very dangerous undertone of misogyny.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we need to ex address. And it was something I was talking about on Instagram recently. Why is it that every partner, pastors depiction of somebody who's living outside of the will of God or doing something stupid spiritually is a caricature of a black woman? Why is that? Or the, The. The image that is exalted, that every woman needs to conform into is that of a traditional white woman. When we don't embrace the uniqueness of the fact that a Proverbs 31 woman can manifest herself as a black woman, as a woman who is in tune with her culture. We don't do that. We don't do that.

[B]

Many things, Courtney.

[A]

Many things. Sorry, I'm really dumb.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no. That was an exhale. That was an excel. Because I know we need to talk on shame, but there's just a couple of things that you said that I'm just like, oh my God. It's really been percolating in my spirit. But what you were saying around the fact that a lot of us are in relationships of performances and trying transaction and how, you know, oftentimes we have to perform in order to obtain very basic civic rights. Right. I know that 100, 200 years ago, you know, women weren't able to vote, women weren't able to access bank accounts, you know, certain things like that. And there is still an element of expectation that women should perform in order to access some of these civil, civil liberty liberties. It also makes me think, I don't know if you've been like following this story online too tough or of. There was a lady that was created like trad wife content and unfortunately the person that she had gotten married to actually ended up abusing their kids.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, allegedly. We are naming no names. Gotta cover ourselves. Yeah, yeah, we are covering ourselves. Legally, we have. This is all speculative.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it just goes to show that even in some of the spaces where, where you think that you would be covered, that you would be protected, there's still risk for women to be in danger. Yeah, we're still endangered. Even when we are following the right scripts, even when we are adhering to everything that society tells us to be, society still leaves us, you know, leaves us empty handed. And it makes me even think of, for example, I was, I was also watching some of the testimonies of like former porn stars and all that kind of stuff and leaving the porn industry despite giving so many years of your life to it and expecting that there would be some kind of payoff after. After the fact, again, your whole life is destroyed. Not only do people have this image of you that is in their eyes beyond redemption and beyond repair care, but in terms of you being able to access some of the same privileges that you once had whilst you're at the height of your career. Access denied.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I find it even laughable the fact that we as women are conforming to on both extremes of the spectrum. Right. You have this porn star, but then you have this trad wife. Both are conforming to societal standards as to what is desirable to men, what is permissible for women, and still both are left wanting and discarded. Did despite a lot of these things, not necessarily just being their fault by actually being a product of the environment that they were brought up in. And why now more than ever before? Community is important because it's not community that will abandon you. Yeah, right. It's true. It's the man. Just this whole idea that the girl child and women are so disposable is so sad.

[A]

And you know what it is? I think it's because. Because we forget that evil is all consuming. It doesn't pay the people that serve it. Right. It will eat you up too, boy. Right. Like once you sell your soul to the devil, he doesn't protect you, he consumes it, boy. Right. I think that's one of the things that we forget. Like it's, it's like what you're saying. No matter what women do, it's like we don't win. And it's because we are serving the same spirit. No matter what form you're coming into, it's still the same evil spirit that runs through the veins of a lot of these online trends, whether it's trad wife or, you know, anything else. The jig I be 304 talk, it's the, it's the same. It's the same spirit in the sense of no matter. Even if you do, all of, if you, if you worship, if you sacrifice, if you do, if you pray, if it's to the same God, you're going to get the same result. Result. And a lot of us think we're doing the right thing, but it's to the wrong God.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Like we're doing all the right things, but it's to the wrong God. You're not, you're not really bowing at the right feet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of us are trying to bow to appease culture. And culture doesn't reward anyone.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

Culture chews people up one day and spit them, spits them out the next day and then it's on to the next, the next day. Right. And that's what we see all the time with women. There's a woman who's in, she's the it girl now and then tomorrow she's not anymore. Culture has chewed you up and spitted you, like, spat you out. And so we need to not bow to culture as women. I think that's the biggest thing that we need to overcome. Whether it's sexual culture Whether it's the sexual revolution, even if it's extreme purity culture, again, it's all cultural things. What we need to be underpinned by is a truth. And women's dignity is a truth. From time before to times that will come, women's dignity will remain. Right. And so honoring that dignity is really, really important. Yeah, yeah. There's, there's, there's a lot to it. There's, there really is a lot to it.

[B]

It's kind of like taking out cultures like, well, bow into culture is like taking out a short term contract with high interest rates.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Eventually you, you'll think that you're actually paying down the payments, but you've actually just covered the interest and there's still the contract that is waiting for you.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

And one of these days when you are unable to pay, what will culture do? Repossess your guy.

[A]

And it comes to collect. And you know where it collects it from your children. Why when we read the right, like, like we said, we're Christians.

[B]

Yeah. Just underpinned, you know, by everything that we've said here is we acknowledge that we have a specific worldview. So if your worldview is different, then that's all. We ain't gonna hold it to you, man. We different people.

[A]

You get what I mean? This is a judgment free zone. I think what's interesting is when you see people who fall into debt in the Bible, the collection is always not just on them, but it's on their children. And when we think about, about biblical slavery and oppression, a lot of it was, we're going to come and take you and your kids and their kids and the rest of their kids. And once you're in this bondage, we're not going to let any of your family go. Because from now on, your title is now Slave. And I think the issue is a lot of us forget that this kind of bondage is passed down generationally and generation and generation. Not just through this spiritual impartation of your DNA, but also through habits.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

And what you're taught and the culture that you are bred into, into your socialization. That's how bondages are often passed on. Right. And so a lot of us need to be mindful that if we do not take time to inspect, investigate and unlearn our relationship with pornographic and sexually explicit content, it will pass down to our children, our grandchildren, their children. And this thing will continue to grow and we will continue to feed a monster. We will continue to feed a monster. So we need to Address it now. Right? And you may think, but I don't participate in pornography. But you are still feeling the harmful effects of pornography because you're living in a sexually explicit culture. And so as much as you sis may not be watching pornography, maybe your husband or your boyfriend or your husband to be. May have. And then he goes on to be the father of your children. And his view of women affects you as his wife, as his daughters, him as his son, and they pass on those ideologies to their children as well. If his pornography addiction. Addiction. I'm saying this in the scenario of a woman who's never watched pornography, if his pornography addiction or his unhealthy relationship with sex affects your marriage, your children are now going to grow up in a broken home. Even if you don't divorce.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even if you don't divorce, your children are going to see a dysfunctional depiction of what a healthy marriage is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is how we pass on strongholds from generation to generation. And so if we don't address the culture. Culture. I'm not just talking about your individual consumption. We need to address the culture. Because you may even think, but I don't watch it. My husband doesn't watch it. Our children are growing up in, you know, a morally upright home. That's fine, but what school are they going to? Hello. Are you gonna be able to safeguard your children from all institutions of socialization? What kids are they going to be playing with? What do they do in their house? It's all these things. A lot of us didn't get exposed to pornography from our parents. Parents. It was a cousin, it was a childminder. It was someone else who was a part of our community who exposed us to something dangerous. So if we don't explore pornographic culture, sexually explicit culture, our hypersexual culture, and it's not just in the Western world. It's not just in the Western world. We're going to keep perpetuating this.

[B]

Yeah. Boy, oh boy. The sins of the father of visited upon their son.

[A]

And that deliverance doesn't just come from you saying, well, I accept Jesus Christ now. It's now in that renewal process of the mind.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that's what I'm saying. A lot of us need, like, we need to pay more attention to what it means to renew our mind. And I've been saying this thing around how conversations are impartations. Right. A huge part of the renewal that's going to happen to your mind is the conversations you now have and also the conversations you're now not afraid to have.

[B]

Absolutely right.

[A]

It's talking, talking about sex, it's talking about pornography, it's talking about addiction and doing it without shame.

[B]

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, I guess we can land the plane on shame because I know we have been saying. No, we had been talking about this but there's just so much to unpack here.

[A]

So much.

[B]

Giving multi episodes facts because they're. Yeah.

[A]

Like with different contributors as well. Like I know, yeah, I know a couple of sex therapists and we know people in this space. But you know, if you are somebody who as an expert in this space or would love to come and like talk about what we can do to actually move forward collectively, especially for the betterment of women.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And children and girls. Like please holler at us, man. Our email is hello to my sisters.com and let's see if we can make something happen.

[B]

In closing out the episode. A tidbit on overcoming shame, especially as it pertains to your sexual appetite, but also the way that you see yourself as a sexual being.

[A]

That's really good. I think one, one remember that having a sexual appetite is not something to be ashamed of. It's actually a part of you as a human being. However that manifests whether it's low sex drive, high sex drive, asexual, don't want nobody to touch me. You know what I mean? Whatever it is, be you, you are a person who has a sexual appetite. Right. However, that's different to being purely a sexual being. And I think some of us have been been fed this lie that we are just our sexual cravings, we are just our sexual performance and our sexual desires. And that's not true. You are not just your sexuality. You are more than that. You're a multi layered human being. Right. And so explore that. Like what does it mean to get to know yourself and to know like in a safe way? Like there is safe ways to explore your sexuality. Without it leading to promiscuity, without it leading to, you know, pornography and pornography addiction and porn obsession. Like there are actually safe ways to explore your sexuality. And I think one if you're anyone who's ever had. I think everyone should go to therapy to talk about their sexuality. Whether you've had a negative sexual experience in your past, whether you've been molested, abused, whatever. I think everyone should go to therapy or talk to a professional about their sexuality because we're living in a society which has so many opinions about what we should do sexually that it's important to actually navigate your own sexuality in A safe environment with people who are informed, who are educated on sex. And that could be family members, friends, whatever, but people who are actually informed. So I think one. Start having conversations with people who you consider to be safe spaces for these things. Right. And it's not just your peers. I know we talk a lot about, like, talk about sex with your friends and stuff. Sometimes it's just the blind leading the blind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes talk to a professional.

[B]

Blindly to the blind is hilarious.

[A]

Just to blindly do the blind.

[B]

That part.

[A]

Talk to your. Talk to a professional, whether it be a healthcare professional, a therapist, or just like a family member and somebody older who you can actually talk to about, like, what actually is sex. So the lot of. For me as well, like, the reason why I even found pornography was because I wanted education. Right. And so for a lot of people, we aren't exposed to educative conversations, which allow us to feel empowered about sex and just not ignorant about sex as well. So have conversations about sex. Right. Start reading official publications about sex and the body. Right. And then I do think there is space to create very safe rooms in your friendships and within your community.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

To express your feelings around your sexuality and your sexual experiences. Like, I think for me, one of the most healing things has been able to share within my friendship group and within my sisterhood. Like, I had a pornography addiction, or this is what happened to me when I was younger, or this is what I was exposed to and what I saw and how it made me feel. And these things are unpacked over years and years and years. But I've. I've also been able to, you know, be blessed with the gift of other people's vulnerability and them being like, you know, When I was 6, I was abused, or this person touched me, or I don't know how to express this, you know, this discomfort that I have around my own body. And just being able to. To, like, not just affirm, but even just listen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just listen to people and be like, you know what? Your story is valid. Your feelings are valid. And I think it's each of our responsibility to mature enough.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To create that kind of safe space for our friends and for our family members as well, especially younger ones. Like, I'm very mindful of the amount of teenagers who are navigating sexuality not just by themselves, but in the absence of their parents and the absence of elders in their families, and are relying on their peers who are as ignorant as they are, to teach them about sex and sexuality. And even then, they're going to the Internet for further education. I think that's quite scary and I think it's for all of us to provide an, again, a judgment free zone. Like from this docu series, we had a conversation with myself and other people who are featured and I was having, I was saying how like, you know, we do need to demonize some of these things. And you know, Sean Flores, who is one of the people in this documentary alongside CeCe Reagan, he was talking about how actually demonization often doesn't work. He does a lot of work with like young men and young boys in school. And you go in and you hear their conversations around sex and red pill content and stuff like that. And if you go in and just tell them what they should not do. Right. They're not going to listen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I think that really taught me a lot because oftentimes we demonize these things, but we don't redeem them. Yeah, we don't talk about how you're actually meant to navigate sex in a good way. How you're meant to, you know, how these things can be seen differently and shaping people's perspective, but also just creating a safe enough environment for them to openly share and, and then you course, correct their thinking. And I think when we go in with being super judgmental and you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that or oh my gosh, I can't believe you've done this, we shut down people's vulnerability and that closes the door to us stepping in and helping them have a different perspective about sex and themselves as well. And I think lastly, like on a really personal level, welcoming God into my sexuality and my sexual, my sex life has actually been a huge blessing for me, like realizing that this isn't a sub, a taboo subject to God. Actually I can pray about these things. I can pray about my desires. I can ask him for deep understanding and revelation and insight that brings that self awareness. Like people often ask, where does your self awareness come from? It really comes from having conversations with God. If there's somebody who created me, there's somebody who knows me better than I know myself. And so I allow him to bring to the surface those innermost thoughts that can sometimes even scare me. And then we walk it out. He might expose me to a book or a podcast or a video or a conversation with somebody that helps my thinking around that feeling. And it's okay to embrace those uncomfortable conversations with God and your family and your community and your friends as well.

[B]

That's so beautiful, man. How about you, man? I Think you cover most things. To be fair. I think the one thing that really came to mind was just the point from redemption, that there is nothing that you could possibly do, do that would make you beyond redemption, Whether it be your sex life, whether it be your relationships, whether it be anything that you have done or has been done to you. You are not beyond redemption. And I think that's what shame does. It pushes us into a place where we start to believe the lie about ourselves that we aren't worth saving. And there's nothing, literally nothing that you could do that could make you beyond being saving. You are worth being saved.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So just reminding yourself that even as you navigate these difficult conversations, even as you struggle with temptation, especially because when we do struggle with things, it's. It's hard because it highlights that we have weaknesses. And I think especially for a lot of us as women that may have been dealing with perfectionist tendencies or trying to be that superhero in a lot of the different areas of our lives, having to grapple with, give that side of yourself which is perfectly fine and valid and real, but then this side of you that almost feels like a thorn in your flesh. It's okay to have weaknesses. And let me do you one better. There is one that actually seeks to use your weakness as part of your redemption story or the best. So I love that it's actually. It's actually okay. It's okay to be weak. It's okay if this is something that you're struggling with. Heck, if you. You have an addiction or a weakness or something that you're struggling with that is causing you to perpetuate a narrative in your head about yourself being not worthy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then, hey, everyone is going through it. You're not the only one. And it is a distinct feature of being human to be weak facts. It is not. It is not your job to be strong all the time. It's not your job. And it's often because we don't have different healthy outlets or spaces where we can truly be our full selves, weaknesses and all. And I love that you highlighted the importance of community and conversations as impartations, because conversations can often be the things that we need to fill ourselves up. So recognizing that there is a weakness, there is a gap there. There is a space in me or a hole in me that needs filling. That in of itself is not inherently bad. In fact, that's indicative of. There is something that you need. Yes, you have been, you know, filling it with things that may not be the healthiest, but you've recognized that need, and that is all you need to be able to now act on it. So you're not beyond redemption. You're not beyond saving. You have a need. And not only is there a one that wants to fill that need, but there's also people around you that also seek to fill that need to so good.

[A]

I think there's only one thing I wanted to add as well. Like what you were saying about shame. Shame is really rooted in fear. Don't let fear cheat you out of your freedom. Don't let fear cheat you out of your freedom. A lot of us are scared to be honest about the things that we have been through for fear of being judged, fear of being isolated, fear of being shut down as well. Like, you know, how many of us have confessed. I've done something like this. And the immediate reaction is, oh, my gosh. Punishment, discipline. How could you have done that? Wow, wow, wow. Beatings. Do you know what I mean? And so we allow fear, fear of the response to keep us from having the conversations which will bring us the breakthrough that we actually need.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so don't let maybe fear of past experiences and how people have reacted to your shortcomings stop you from really being honest about people who have proven themselves worthy of your vulnerability. Because on the other side of that uncomfortable conversation which you're struggling to have, is the freedom that you actually desire.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the freedom you desire. I don't think people talk enough about how freeing confession actually is.

[B]

Oh, so freeing.

[A]

Once you finally say something that you've done, there is a burden that's lifted. Yes. There may be some repercussions that come. Some of you, in confessing what you've done, there's going to be some hard conversations to be had.

[B]

In fact, some of you might even need to go to jail.

[A]

Some of you might go to prison. But there is. Is something lifting and freeing about not holding a dirty secret.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And for a lot of us, what's eating us up more is the dissonance between who we present ourselves to be.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And who we actually are. Just be honest about your authenticity and be honest about your story, and that will be the beginning of your freedom.

[B]

Hello. Hello. Confess today.

[A]

Confess. Like, there's something so powerful about when God said, confess your sins to one another.

[B]

Confess.

[A]

Confess your sins to one. It's a key part of community, actually, and fellowship. Confession. Just being honest about what you're going through. Conf. Start opening up your mouth and yapping.

[B]

And one thing about confession to the right people. Yeah. To the right people. Once you confess something, no one can ever hold it, hold it engaged because you know I'm free from this.

[A]

Ah, everybody knows that's even old news.

[B]

Come on. 2024. Even heading into 25, this one was 2019. What rubbish facts. Sisters, we hope that this conversation has been an impartation. We hope that it has been freeing. We also just pray for everybody that may be dealing with an addiction. I know it's such an awkward and uncomfortable and a shameful thing to be feeling and experiencing. So we really do pray that you feel fullness in the freedom, especially in the coming season. This is the season everyone's doing up, reflection and slowing down. So even in slowing down and reflecting, we hope that a light is shined upon the areas where you know that you have a need and you need to redirect where you're getting fulfillment from for that need. So we're really praying for you guys in that area and you can continue to support us and follow us and create a community where women cannot be judged but they can come with their bonnets on and their makeup off. You can follow everything to my sisters at to my sisterhood on pretty much every platform and we would love to hear your thoughts, your stories even. Please drop it like it's hot in the comment section below, either on Spotify or on YouTube. Apple Podcast work work. You've seen the updates. Please be getting there, be getting there. Innovation and of course follow us on Instagram, Tick tock, all of that kind of good stuff. And of course my wonderful bestie who came and dropped it like his hot pipe in pure peel peel at CD Barteng. And of course please check out the incredible documentary. Check out where can we find you.

[A]

Oh yeah, BBC I player BBC Sex after Porn addiction. You can check it out. You can read the article. Ciao. If you're not in the UK though, I don't think you can watch it because iplayer is exclusive to the uk. I don't know what to say.

[B]

Yeah, whatever.

[A]

Article.

[B]

If you want to read however you want to access that is you want a VPN or something, however you want to access that. We are not supportive of illegal things on this. However you want to access that, you can check quips so make sure you check it out. We are going to link it below in the description but we're also going to link it in our newsletter as well so that you guys can check that out.

[A]

But also follow Renee Renee Kapuku and friend. I just want to say thank you so much for handling this conversation with so much grace and sensitivity and also giving me the space to actually just yap.

[B]

Yeah, girl, we needed it. The girls needed it. Yeah.

[A]

But also for being a friend who has been a pillar in this journey for the last like decade or so of like, unlearning and relearning and finding confidence with my body and sexuality and just understanding myself more and feeling empowered to have these conversations, I It's not lost on me that as much as we talk about stuff like this very openly, like, it's actually quite an awkward topic and it takes a very special, mature and emotionally mature person to be able to hold space for these kind of topics continuously as well. So well done to you and thank you so much.

[B]

Always, friend. Genuinely my pleasure, you know, and not may it continue because, you know, people are going into pastures new. The conversations are gonna start developing, which is exciting. Anywho. All right sisters, we absolutely adore you. Don't forget to sign up to the mailing list as well. WWysisters.com Ah, our own HTTP please, please, please sign up to the mailing list so that you can get weekly glowing and growing tips from us and those cute little love letters to encourage you about your week.

[A]

We already know the deal.

[B]

Sisters, we absolutely adore you.

[A]

We do.

[B]

We hope you have a fabulous week ahead.

[A]

Love you.

[B]

And as always, keep glowing and growing. My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friend's still laughing me to this day.

[A]

Not everyone gets B to b, but with LinkedIn you'll be able to reach people who do.

[B]

Get $100 credit on your next ad campaign.

[A]

Go to LinkedIn.com results to claim your credit. That's LinkedIn.com results. Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn the place to be to be.