The Patriarchy Pivot: Why Do We Hate Successful Women Now More Than Ever

Summary

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To My Sisters: "The Patriarchy Pivot: Why Do We Hate Successful Women Now More Than Ever"

Hosts: Courtney Daniella Boateng & Renée Kapuku
Date: November 9, 2025

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Episode Overview

Courtney and Renée dive into the “Patriarchy Pivot” and the recent phenomenon of ‘getting woman’—the cultural backlash against women, especially Black women, as they attain success, visibility, or transition into new life stages. They explore how societal expectations, internalized misogyny, and capitalist structures intersect to shape perceptions of successful women and content creators. The episode is a candid, deeply insightful conversation on sisterhood, advocacy, evolving identities, and unapologetic success.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The “Getting Woman” Phenomenon

[01:47–16:30]

• Definition: The term, coined by Adela Afadi, describes how women (especially female creators) who “glow up” or experience positive life changes suddenly face hostility or alienation from audiences—both men and women.
• Context: Renée explains this isn’t limited to online spaces but happens in real life: as women reach milestones like marriage or financial success, their relationships and public perception shift—often negatively.
• Relatability Crisis: “The girls don’t like them no more … all of a sudden we have this kind of almost mass sentiment of we don’t mess with that person no more.” – Renée [17:54]
• Personal Reflection: Courtney and Renée discuss their own experiences as public figures transitioning through life changes (e.g., marriage) and the pressures or expectations that arise.

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2. Society’s Expectation of Women to “Pivot”

[18:50–21:37]

• Social Pressures: People expect women to change their identities to revolve around patriarchal milestones (marriage, wealth, career).
• Cultural Norms: In many cultures, women are advised to drop single friends or shift circles post-marriage or promotions.
• Capitalism & Patriarchy Intersect: Courtney observes the “getting woman” backlash often intensifies once a woman’s success reflects a new tax bracket or higher level of visibility.

“It happens at this perfect intersection of patriarchy and capitalism.” – Courtney [21:29]

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3. The Authenticity–Relatability Dilemma for Women Creators

[21:37–25:98]

• Discusses how audiences often “freeze” women in time, resenting natural evolution and growth.
• “You represent a particular thing … to someone else, it’s ‘you’ve changed completely to who I thought you were committed to being.’ I never said I was committed to being that person. That’s just how you found me.” – Courtney [22:13]
• Male creators are often allowed to evolve or flaunt wealth without backlash; for women, especially Black women, displaying success is policed and often seen as ego.

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4. Internalized Misogyny & Policing Black Women’s Success

[25:16–32:18]

• Extreme resentment exists when Black women embody archetypes of success—countering harmful media stereotypes.
• Candice Braithwaite and simply_shell’s idea: Some people resent “categories of women” (like dark-skinned or plus-size) achieving happiness or visibility, as it shatters their own sense of worth or hierarchy.
• The audience sometimes projects envy:

  “For them, that was the person they always compared themselves to as in, ‘At least I’m not this person.’ … It really upsets them when that kind of person who they considered unworthy is now doing better than them.” – Courtney [31:01]

• Notable Quote:
  “Black women are not in that image. Black women are not in that picture.” – Courtney [31:40]

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5. Women as “Influencers” vs Men as “Content Creators”

[36:11–39:43]

• Male creators are seen as professionals/innovators while women—regardless of skill—are labeled “influencers,” reducing their credibility and business savvy.
• The conversion of likability into profit is undervalued when accomplished by women.
• “It’s hard, it’s not an easy thing. And I think there is, I think it is very much representative of how society functions and how society views women…” – Renée [39:44]

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6. Content Creator Responsibility & Community Engagement

[43:43–50:00]

• Creators risk community alienation when they lose sight of their audience’s needs or flaunt controversial life changes/partnerships.
• The balance between authentic personal growth and brand evolution is crucial; loss of connection may prompt the community to “outgrow” or critique said creator.
• “Take your community on the journey.” – Courtney [58:29]
• “Everyone should be okay with everyone’s evolution and be okay to leave—just as in real life relationships, some people are just there for a season, and that’s okay.” – Courtney [45:26]

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7. The Case for Advocacy Over Mere Relatability

[61:37–62:29]

• “They actually want an advocate because you become their voice in that space.” – Renée [61:37]
• Jackie Aina as an example: Despite platform evolution and luxury, she remains a steadfast advocate for representation and inclusivity, which cements her lasting respect.

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8. The Hazards (and Value) of Community Feedback

[60:44–61:16]

• The TMS hosts reflect on the power of respectful community feedback and the necessity of maintaining humility and advocacy as their platforms grow.
• “We try to be advocates for our community and you get that in response, in return.” – Courtney [61:14]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Validation is very different to the love you actually want. Anyone can validate you. Very few people can give you the love you actually want.” – Courtney [09:41]
• “We can get so happy that we are picked that we ignore the fact that we are dissatisfied with the person who picked us.” – Courtney [09:11]
• “If you do find somebody and you guys get together, please invite us all out somewhere.” – Renée [15:17]
• “You know what? We need more people. Yeah. And dare I say it something—we need Jesus who can be all, be all and end all. But that’s a separate discussion.” – Renée [63:15]
• “A good name is worth more than riches … The essence of building a personal brand is [that] you are more than building a business and making riches. You are building a good name that will take you a lot further.” – Courtney [53:05]

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Important Timestamps

• [04:10–15:24]: Community Dilemma discussion – “Dating readiness,” self-worth, and authenticity.
• [15:53]: Introduction to the ‘Patriarchy Pivot’ and “getting woman.”
• [21:01–22:13]: Courtney explains the progression of creators and the audience’s discomfort with change.
• [31:01]: Comparing oneself to other types of women—anger at seeing “unworthy” women succeed.
• [37:43]: The “scheme that Todd set up” and women’s constant need to perform for validation.
• [44:25–45:26]: Pitfalls of stunting and alienating your core community as a creator.
• [49:04]: The more successful you are, the more responsibility you have to the community.
• [53:05]: “A good name is worth more than riches”—how reputation is the true asset.

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Flow & Tone

• Highly conversational, witty, and supportive—these are two “big sisters” speaking directly to fellow women and content consumers.
• Both hosts are candid, weaving in sociological theory, pop culture references, personal experiences, humor, and spiritual encouragement.
• Jokes and asides (e.g., “The girls going to get defend us … I might even pin your comments. Yeah, I will pin it. The pin of shame.” [65:05]) maintain levity but underscore deeper truths.

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Conclusion

Courtney and Renée challenge listeners to reflect on their own attitudes toward successful women, particularly Black women, and to interrogate both external and internalized biases. They emphasize the importance of advocacy, community, and authenticity—reminding creators and supporters alike that growth is natural and that true impact comes from remaining connected to and fighting for your community.

Call to action:
Engage respectfully, support creators through their evolution, and—above all—root for one another’s success rather than resenting it.

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Listen To:

• [15:53] for the core “patriarchy pivot” introduction.
• [31:01] for a powerful discussion on Black women's success, envy, and representation.
• [53:05] for Courtney’s summation on reputation and legacy.

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For more, follow @ToMySisterhood across all socials and sign up for their mailing list at tomysisters.com!

Transcript

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[Renee Kapuki]

We're going to be talking about the patriarchy pivot. We've had a couple of people have been like, oh, you know, yeah, they go move different, act different. You know, when they get that for.

[Courtney Bartok]

A woman, how dare you be rich and wealthy and display that this must be a certain level of ego.

[Renee Kapuki]

Is their content now going to reflect the fact that, oh, they've become wives.

[Courtney Bartok]

And they're, yes, married, to keep your mouth open. I'm not going to change my car that I display in my videos. I, I'm not going to change up my set too much because I don't want people to now perceive me as a different kind of person.

[Renee Kapuki]

How dare you be a black woman that's got like six figures like, ah, the rage of seeing black women with money.

[Courtney Bartok]

Why is that not allowed? Why can't I just decide that I now want to be someone different? Don't worry.

[Renee Kapuki]

Influences were coming to you because some.

[Courtney Bartok]

Of you guys are actual in itself. A lot of people's internalized belief about who can and cannot succeed. Black women are not in that image. Hello and welcome to the two My Sisters podcast. I'm Courtney.

[Renee Kapuki]

And I'm Renee. And we are your online sisters and hosts of the 2 My Sisters podcast.

[Courtney Bartok]

We are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters around the world.

[Renee Kapuki]

And in today's podcast episode, we're going to be talking about the patriarchy pivot and this whole idea of getting woman shout out to our sister, Mrs. Adela Afadi, the greatest. So for those of you that are not aware of what getting woman is, we're going to go into it in the podcast episode, but it's this idea of female creators, woman creators basically starting to, you know, glow up, uplift their life, all that kind of good stuff. And all of a sudden, the girls don't like them no more. The girls and the guys don't like them no more. So we're going to explore that in more detail, more depth and kind of look at what, why and how do women start to fall out of relevance when they start to not Even necessarily glow up. But things start to change in their life and their content, the things that they put out and all of that kind of stuff gravitates around those changes in their lives. Yeah. But before we do that, do we have any housekeeping announcements or anything? Or has the house.

[Courtney Bartok]

At this point, we are a couple of days away from turning five years old as a podcast.

[Renee Kapuki]

Woo.

[Courtney Bartok]

Crazy. We have literally been at this podcast since. Since 2020. Crazy. And you guys have been rocking with us since episode one.

[Renee Kapuki]

Wow.

[Courtney Bartok]

And so thank you. Thank you for allowing this to flourish in this way. Typically, around this point, we would have a live show, but this year has just been incredibly, incredibly busy.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

And so we're going to find another way to celebrate. And so, yeah, you keep your eyes peeled. Sign up to the mailing list if you haven't already over on our website, to my sisters.com, because you'll be the first to know.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

What we're doing to celebrate this huge milestone. But for now, we just want to say thank you. Thank you so much for supporting us and well done to us, honestly.

[Renee Kapuki]

Pat on the back. Pat on the back. Yeah, I know Courtney doesn't like this, but if you want to give us five pounds, that would be nice.

[Courtney Bartok]

Thank you.

[Renee Kapuki]

Appreciate it.

[Courtney Bartok]

Funny, funny, funny.

[Renee Kapuki]

Anyway, because girl, if, like, if 100,000. If a hundred thousand of y' all gave us five pounds. Oh, Lord. This podcast was talk. You'll see some changes on this podcast. Anywho, I live in joyful hope of your generosity.

[Courtney Bartok]

Amen. Amen.

[Renee Kapuki]

Cool. So the house has been swept. I guess we can go straight into.

[Courtney Bartok]

The ding, ding, ding dilemma. Let's do it.

[Renee Kapuki]

Okay. Let's see. The girls are still in need of help, it seems, and that's what we're here for. Hello. Okay, so. Hi, sisters.

[Courtney Bartok]

Hey, sweetheart.

[Renee Kapuki]

Thank you for being our lanterns in this messy world. Oh, my God. Gomantic.

[Courtney Bartok]

I'm a lantern.

[Renee Kapuki]

Amen. Got me feeling almost inside. So this was inspired by your episode on the downfall of the patriarchy princesses. Okay. I'm in my mid-20s and I like playing it safe in life. I have never been in a relationship, which is no crime at all, thank goodness. I'm happy to be on the shelf.

[Courtney Bartok]

That's right.

[Renee Kapuki]

But unfortunately, this is rooted in my crippling low self esteem and fear. I've never believed that anyone would genuinely like me as I am. It's not as sad as it sounds. My self image is simply in the gutter. Oh, it's sad. I love that she has a sense.

[Courtney Bartok]

Of sadhu.

[Renee Kapuki]

And I fear losing myself in a relationship. Thus, your comment on independence plus interdependence was a light bulb moment. However, I'm an introvert whose hobbies are largely limited to stories in whatever shape or form. I worry that a partner could quickly take up too much space. I hate to think about how beholden I'd be to them. One wrong move and I could be enmeshed with a dangerous person.

[Courtney Bartok]

And finally, this girl could write books.

[Renee Kapuki]

And she says she loves stories. Baby, you should be an author and find it tough to leave. Due to this, I feel that it's not safe for me to venture into a relationship while a therapist is trying their best with me already. I'd like to know when you think it would be okay for me to take that leap of faith in the work I've tried to do since my teen years. How do I know when I'm ready?

[Courtney Bartok]

Oh, that's a good question. I like this dilemma. I like this dilemma. I think first of all, girl, you are not on any shelf waiting to be.

[Renee Kapuki]

God forbid.

[Courtney Bartok]

It's not that metaphor needs to die because things on shelves don't move. They don't get to live life. They have to be stationary and stagnant. And so you are not on a shelf. You are a being living life, and you are walking on a journey until you encounter a person that is worth journeying with. It's that simple. I think what recognizing the need to kind of change the way you approach dating so that your life is not overtaken by the person who you are going to be with is such a beautiful thing to recognize. And I think it's something that doesn't have a definitive endpoint of like, oh, this is when you'll be ready to date. It'll be this light bulb moment. Absolutely not. A lot of these things are just trial and error. But I think there are some points you can get to with your mindset that will allow you to be like, okay, I feel comfortable testing the waters of dating this particular person. I think it's twofold. One, in yourself, are you allowing yourself to love the things that you love unapologetically? And two, fixing your mindset about who you want to be with and knowing that that person doesn't need to become a distraction, but they can love the things that you love as well. You can find somebody who you have so much in common with that they want to participate in the things that you love. It might not be all of it, but there's a lot of it that they're okay. You love watching movies. You love reading books. You love going to the theater. I love doing those things as well. And I think making that one of your. You know, the list that girls make about guys, like, making that one of your desires for your future partner. I think that's a very beautiful thing because you don't want somebody to come into your life who's like, I hate going to the movies. I can't sit through a film. I hate reading a book. I ain't read one. 2016. You don't want someone like that. You don't, because it's not that they're not compatible with you. And I think sometimes this whole waiting to be picked mentality, it rids you of the agency of also getting to choose. You know, the per. The thing on the shelf cannot choose its picker, but you can. You can pick who you want to be with, because you're not just waiting to be picked. You're not just idly waiting there so you can create for yourself that desire or that profile of, okay, I want a man who at least can participate with me in these things. So, for example, I love travel. I knew that once I got married, I didn't want to stop traveling because, hey, I'm a wife now. Or, maybe, you know, by God's grace, one day I'll be a mother. And it's like, I need to pause that part of my life. No, it's a passion. It's something that I enjoy. And so I want to. When I'm dating people, not only do I pray for a partner, I also practically vet the person. Do you like traveling? Do you have a passport if you've never been anywhere before? Are you scared of planes? Would you be open to getting there by sea like, we. I just want to explore the world.

[Renee Kapuki]

How can you say, do you have a passport? And then do the planes? Scary.

[Courtney Bartok]

If you're scared of planes, we need to find another mode of travel because we're going somewhere, whether it's by far, you know, or even at the very least, are you happy with me going by myself?

[Renee Kapuki]

That's a big one. Yeah, Simple.

[Courtney Bartok]

And so I think it's allowing yourself to realize you are in control of your dating. So I think it's a mindset shift. And then secondly, it's finding that person who actually fits those things. I think sometimes we can get really delusional and we can get so happy. This is the. The patriarchy princess thing. We can get so happy that we are picked that we ignore the fact that we are dissatisfied with the person who picked us. So allow yourself to recognize, as much as it's nice to be validated, this is not compatible with me. Yeah, I don't want this.

[Renee Kapuki]

I don't want to be with this person.

[Courtney Bartok]

Right. Validation is very different to the love you actually want. Anyone can validate you. Very few people can give you the love you actually want. And so allow yourself to hold yourself to a high enough standard for the future that you want. Not based on how you see yourself, who you think you are, but simply because I know the life that I want for myself, I am going to stay faithful to that. I'm going to be committed to giving myself that. So I'm going to make certain choices and that that includes who I give my yes to when it comes to relationships. I think once you are so convicted and committed to that, you know you're ready, you know you're ready to try. There will be some men that will be very convincing to get you to compromise. Oh my gosh, he might be just fine enough. He might make enough money enough, and that's fine. Sometimes compromise, it works. It works. But you have to deal with the consequences of your compromise.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

So that's, that's what I would say.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

On this.

[Courtney Bartok]

But I think it's such a beautiful thing to recognize. And I think you're already doing the work, like you mentioned therapy.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

The fact you've even sent in this dilemma, you're listening to this podcast. I think it's such a beautiful thing to be doing the work in yourself and don't put so much pressure on yourself to be perfectly ready before you start to pursue the things that you actually want. But I do think work on yourself so that you can discern the things you actually want and not just somebody who can be a great placeholder, but who will actually waste your time and undo a lot of the work that you've already done.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, yeah. Fabulous point. Evidence, explanation, link back to the question, if you will. I thought that was very comprehensive. Thank you. I was even encouraged by that. Yeah. Not too much to add to that, to be fair. I think don't get too infatuated with this idea of readiness, because if there's one thing that life has taught me is that you will never fully be ready for anything in this life. And I think exactly what you said. You are already taking great steps to becoming a better person, a better partner. The fact that you have the self awareness of, okay, these are things that I hold dear to my life Right. This sense of independence, this. This sense of my love of stories also. You sound like you're funny. I like that. You sound like you can have a good time.

[Courtney Bartok]

Got a lot going for you. Got a big vocabulary, too.

[Renee Kapuki]

Big vocabulary. You're so articulate. You're kind of funny. You're witty.

[Courtney Bartok]

You're witty, and not a lot of people are witty. Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

So, girl, you is a catch already. I can see this from. I don't even know what you look like. And I'm like, oh, I'm trying to pluck her off the shelf. You know what I'm saying? But I think definitely that move away from this passive, this whole idea of you being on the shelf, you have to be proactive. And I think it also speaks to, like, our generation at the moment. And when it comes to dating ladies, we cannot just be sitting there, like, hoping to be picked. We need to be outside, because that's where the kinds of people we actually want to be with are as well. And I love that you mentioned this whole idea of, like, making sure you're actually satisfied with the person as well. Like, it's a beautiful thing to be picked. It's nice to be desired, but that's not necessarily going. Going to fulfill you later on in life. And it's not enough to sustain a relationship. And I think also your relationship with relationships needs to continue to be a little bit unpacked and continue to do that work in therapy. Trust me, I'm witchy girl. But relationships can be a great source of strength in pursuing the things that we love. So you love stories. You love your independence. There are people out there that will respect that and love that about you. So don't think that relationships are purely about curtailing the freedoms that you have as a single person, but rather, you can start to see them as a source of strength to bolster the things that you care about, that you love doing that you. That make you you whilst you are by yourself. Like, relationships are not meant to be a ball and chain. They're actually meant to be a place that you can dwell and a place that you can draw significant strength from, and a place where you can even continue to capitalize on the things that you like. Like, Courtney loves traveling the ba. Like, Courtney ain't gonna be with somebody outside. Courtney ain't gonna be with somebody that's got stuff from traveling. If she got dragged, that man. Come on.

[Courtney Bartok]

You let me go.

[Renee Kapuki]

What? Absolutely insufferable. So you've got to find somebody that actually allows you to do the things that you love. I love a sweet treat.

[Courtney Bartok]

That's right.

[Renee Kapuki]

It is impossible, Impossible. Even if they don't like sweet treats, it is impossible, impossible to stop me from having my sweet treats. I love pistachio. You ain't gotta like pistachio. Actually, you probably do. You ain't gotta love it like I do, but you ain't gonna stop me from doing it. Like, there's certain things that I loved it. I love my walks.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

You can't stop me from going on my walks. Yeah, you ain't gotta love it, but you actually do have to be my biggest supporter when it comes to these kind of things. And there are, contrary to popular belief, there are some men out there. There are men out there in the same way that I'm sure you as an individual will probably have so much space to hold for somebody that cares about their own hobbies. Just get with somebody that's like minded. Yeah, the filtration. As you were mentioning, y' all got a vet. Yeah, you got a vet. So, sis, continue doing the work that you're doing. Once you get to that point, as you mentioned that, you know, you've done significant work, you're now, like, outside. You're proactively, like, pursuing the things that you care about, then, girl, you never know. You know, though, that storytelling, go to the theater, go to the book clubs. There's some cute men there that I'm.

[Courtney Bartok]

Sure they're gonna find someone, snatch you up. Even if you don't. You would be living a happy life.

[Renee Kapuki]

Ah, this is it, isn't it? This is it. That's. That's all that matters. If you do find somebody and you guys get together, please invite us all out somewhere.

[Courtney Bartok]

Me too. I like Lottie Rice.

[Renee Kapuki]

We do. And you heard that I like sweet treats. So the best way to get me on your side, specifically, is bring an offering of sweet treats. Thank you. God bless you. But, sisters, if you have any advice for our good sis who is doing the work, we would love to hear it. When did you guys feel like you were ready to, you know, pounce in the scenes? When it comes to dating, drop it like it's hot in the comments below. We'd love to hear it. We'd love to hear it.

[Courtney Bartok]

Love it. Love it.

[Renee Kapuki]

Alas, we must segue into the venison, if you will. Yes, the. The patriarchy pivot. So this has been a very interesting conversation. And to give some more context, our good friend Adela, if you haven't already listened to the podcast episode that Our lovely dear Courtney did with Adela. I think that you should run. I think that you should run. But Adela speaks often about something called getting woman. She's. She's termed it getting woman. History in the making, because she's actually. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Adele is. Sorry.

[Courtney Bartok]

Adele is working on something. So, yeah, she works. I don't know if it'll be out by now, but she working.

[Renee Kapuki]

She working.

[Courtney Bartok]

Once it comes out, go and support her. She's working on her own podcast, period, and I actually did an episode with her.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yay.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

So I don't know when it will be out, but go support our girl when it comes out.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Delish.

[Renee Kapuki]

Delish. Oh, guys, you have to. The dynamic. Do it. You have to arise and shine all compatriots. We have work to do. I'm sorry, Nigeria. Listen, one thing about Nigerians that I absolutely love about my people is that we can be infighting, but the moment that we have to all come together, we will come together. Our arrogance just does not allow for us to carry last.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

So, guys, if you know that you're bad and you're a Nigerian, make sure you arise and shine. Neither of the ladies in question.

[Courtney Bartok]

But for my sake, I think it's a Delahoff. Is she?

[Renee Kapuki]

Is she, Is she?

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, I think Nigerian.

[Renee Kapuki]

Oh, Even more of my.

[Courtney Bartok]

Or maybe not it.

[Renee Kapuki]

I thought it could. No, no, no.

[Courtney Bartok]

That's Keith's name.

[Renee Kapuki]

Keith is Nigerian.

[Courtney Bartok]

No, Keith is half Ghanaian, half Sierra Leone chai. Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

You could fool me. Okay. At least for my sake. Right now, until we've confirmed, please arise and shine.

[Courtney Bartok]

Arise, guys. Support the people there.

[Renee Kapuki]

But, yeah, this whole term of, like, getting woman and how we see a lot of successful women or we just see women who are predominantly content creators come up.

[Courtney Bartok]

We love them.

[Renee Kapuki]

They're, you know, funny or whatever they're known for. But then as they get more and more successful, you know, their content starts to change. There's all of these conversations around relatability, and all of a sudden, we have this kind of almost mass sentiment of we don't mess with that person no more. Do you know what I mean? So. So there's that side of the conversation, but I think more broadly, I wanted to have a conversation around the natural reality of as women that are, you know, visible or whatnot, we grow up, we change, things happen, all that kind of stuff. And I actually wanted to start with us two. We've had a couple of people have been like, oh, you know, they got move different act different. You know, when they get. Who was saying that? Who said that they will remain unnamed.

[Courtney Bartok]

Because we're moving different houses.

[Renee Kapuki]

No, no, we're not. We're moving different, but it's more so. Oh, now that you have reached this life stage, is their content now going to reflect the fact that, oh, they've become wives and they're.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yes. Marrying. How to keep your marital home, too.

[Renee Kapuki]

That's Our next episode.

[Courtney Bartok]

10 hacks on keeping a clean marital mom.

[Renee Kapuki]

How you attract a man, how you.

[Courtney Bartok]

Get the wrong decision. This will always remain a safe space.

[Renee Kapuki]

This will always remain. In fact, when I say Courtney and I were even committed, like, I don't think you understand these men that we have got. They have got a long road ahead of them. They must be foolish if they think that the agenda for the girls. The girls are our priority. But I'm not kidding on that front. But there is this real. Like, when. Especially when it comes to certain things within patriarchy that can be quite contentious for a lot of women, us included. Like, there's this whole, oh, now her whole life is going to be about this thing, this thing that she has now obtained and attained and all that kind of stuff. So I kind of wanted to start the conversation with that. Like, why is it that for a lot of people when they go through life transitions or changes or whatnot, or they start to obtain things that are seen as valuable within patriarchy, especially for women, where does that temptation come from for everything? Their brand or whatever or, you know, their life even? Where does that temptation come from for everything to change? And it doesn't even necessarily have to just be content creators. Right. We've even seen it in, like, real life. The babe that will get married, and all of a sudden I'm cutting off my single friends.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

Or, you know, the babe that she got a promotion or something like that. She said, I can't be rocking with my broke friends. I have to be around all of these investing peoples and all that kind of stuff. Talk to me a little bit about, like, how there are some of us as women that fall into that temptation of completely changing our identity and everything that we do to revolve around this thing or this new milestone that we've experienced in our lives.

[Courtney Bartok]

That's a really good question. I think it's a range of things. I think one society has told us it's meant to be that way. So even that thing you mentioned around, okay, you just got married. A lot of cultures will tell you it's time to progress, to Having only married friends, I'm telling you.

[Renee Kapuki]

Oh, yeah. Some of the single friends, you know.

[Courtney Bartok]

You know, all this. All this. Don't let your single friends in your house. All of that stuff. So for some people, it's just following advice.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

In the space of. And I. I think what's interesting about this whole getting woman is I think it happens at this perfect intersection of patriarchy and capitalism.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Because it often happens as well when somebody has entered a new tax bracket. And I think what's interesting is when someone starts a platform, for example, they become a particular image in someone's mind.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

They represent a particular thing. However, they may not have even set out to be that thing. That thing may have just been who they were at that point. Then they reach maybe their own goals. And to somebody else, it's. You've changed completely to who I thought you were committed to being. I never said I was committed to being that person. That's just how you found me.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Right. So it can then feel like for the consumer, this is a betrayal of who you originally were. Why are you trying to switch it up? But to the creator, it's. This has always been on the progression.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

This has always been the goal. This is who I've always wanted to be. I just wasn't that when you found me. But now I am. And you're upset, seemingly, about the progress, but actually what the consumer is upset with is the change. Right. And so I think it's. There's a miscommunication between those two things, which neither person is really at fault for. I think as consumers, we need to remember that the people who create this content are not static beings. And I was thinking about this interestingly yesterday, about a creator who I really love called Ryan Trahan. Massive creator.

[Renee Kapuki]

Rene Massive. Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

And he's absolutely amazing. And he is undoubtedly making millions of doll a year, maybe even a month. The man is rich. I know it.

[Renee Kapuki]

Right.

[Courtney Bartok]

However, in his videos, there is nothing to really flaunt his wealth or to show like a big, ostentatious change in his life. And I was reflecting on it as to why he doesn't do this, because it's clear from the amount of success you've had as a creator, you're making money, are making money. That. I mean, I have seen people with half of what you have buy more than what you display. I was so confused. And I was reflecting on it. I was thinking, because I think, one, it's a level of humility, but two, I think there's an Aspect of careful consideration that the brand that I have created is very relatable for a certain demographic of people. And if I now start to display luxury cars and all of that stuff, I think first of all, even adding that he might not like that stuff, the luxury cars and all of that stuff, he is more so like travel experiences, that kind of stuff. And my guy will be like, I'm going to sit in every class of Emirates, I mean, and test them out. And it's a cool video concept. And he's happy sitting in economy basic. He's also happy sitting in the one first class suite. Do you get what I mean? And you know, he paid for that with his money. So he's got money. But I think the reason why he doesn't flaunt it is because he knows the brand that I have created is relatable to a certain group of people. And if I deviate from that, I'm going to isolate a certain group of people. And that is a business move. And I think as a creator, the temptation is, I want to say the temptation, the tension is do I do what is authentic to me or do I make a calculated business move? And the calculated business move can sometimes be the change because it appeals to a new audience or minimizing the appearance of the change so that I can stay relatable to the existing audience, right? So even if I am making millions a year, I'm not going to change my car that I display in my videos. I'm not going to change up my set too much because I don't want people to now perceive me as a different kind person. I think what's different for Ryan is not that he's the only case study, but he's a man. And so most people wouldn't really even care because they'll be like, oh, you've succeeded.

[Renee Kapuki]

You know, you are capitalism stream.

[Courtney Bartok]

However, for a woman, how dare you be rich and wealthy and display that? This must be a certain level of ego. And I think of people like Jackie Aina. I think of Patricia Bright. I think of so many different people, particularly black women, but just women in general. Emma Chamberlain, like all of these different people who, oh, you were once so relatable when you were using this foundation from Superdrug or from, you know, Target, and now I can only buy the stuff you use at Sephora or from, you know, Louis Vuitton Beauty or like, this is not relatable to me. And it's because the person has pivoted towards creating content that's authentic. To them, which might have isolated you as a consumer because you're no longer their target audience.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

And that can feel like a betrayal because it's like, I've brought you to this point, but at the same time, this person has built the brand off of them as a person, not just the image that you think they portray. And I think that I understand where the tension is. I think the temptation for people online and offline to even more directly answer your question is that sometimes we want to play into the appearance that we are either more than what we are or. Or we have achieved maybe something and now we want to stunt on people. I can't find an articulate way to. We want to stunt on people. And sometimes that's a temptation people want to fall in. Another temptation is not understanding why your community may need to go on a certain journey with you in order to be. Not that you need their approval, but in order to be okay with where you are. Perfect example of this is Aaliyah's face place. Aaliyah started content in a very different position to where she is now. Right. She has become the face of the more self made but now upper middle class.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

To somewhat degree upper class woman. Right. She's living a certain level of freedom, luxury, and all of that stuff that a lot of people aspire to have, but they are comfortable with it. It because she showed her journey from nothing to something. I think what can be challenging is some people feel like they don't see the evolution. And so now you have become something completely contrary to who you used to be. I think where we see the patriarchy play out, though, is why is that not allowed? Why can't I just decide that I now want to be someone different? Yes. It may mean I lose the. All the sentiment of certain audience members.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

But it shouldn't come with such discredit to my character and to myself as a person. I think that's where we get into a really misogynistic place where it's like, I never like Hadela pointing out this brilliant thing where it's like suddenly you'll go from being broke to being rich as a female creator and people will be like, I never liked you anyway.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah. And it's just like, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Where does this design, this desire to humble women, this desire to belittle women, this desire to make people seem as though they've always been bad just because they succeeded at what is, for all intents and purposes, a career?

[Renee Kapuki]

I think there's quite a few, not just creators But I do think, at least from the consumer perspective, there are quite a few people that actually low key and this now high key hate them.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, a lot of people hate them.

[Renee Kapuki]

Especially in that expression of like, oh, I never messed with this person in the first place. And it's like, no, that's not true. You were definitely liking some. You were literally liking.

[Courtney Bartok]

They taught you how to do your first makeup. Like, maybe you, you'd be blending out.

[Renee Kapuki]

That concealer because you was watching them back in the day. Where did this come from? And it's like, I, I love what you were saying around the internalized misogyny. Because I think what disappoints me sometimes is when I see the outcry from women. I think it's one thing to critique creators and kind of give feedback like, oh, okay, I don't mess with this kind of content or this style of content anymore. But I think in the, the genuine desire to humble and humiliate women and to also mess with their bag.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, big time.

[Renee Kapuki]

Because that whole being quick to remind our creators or people that have, you know, up and coming, it's because of me that you're here. Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

I'm like, baby, that's not fully true though, is it? Because it takes a very intelligent person to change, to turn attention into capital 100. A lot of people have had attention. They ain't got no money.

[Renee Kapuki]

Zero capital. Zero capital.

[Courtney Bartok]

So it's actually down to this person's ability to convert your attention into actual.

[Renee Kapuki]

Money and currency business acumen.

[Courtney Bartok]

That's simple.

[Renee Kapuki]

The name actually means something. So. Yeah, I think it's a very unfortunate reflection of the fact that there's a lot of hate. And I love that you actually pointed out black women. Yeah. Because I feel like black women get it disproportionately to other creators, other people. And I think what also is frustrating is that it comes from other women.

[Courtney Bartok]

Absolutely.

[Renee Kapuki]

So speak to me about that, about the fact that when we do see quite a lot of like critique or like whenever there is a creator in trouble or that kind of stuff. Yeah. We seem to get some of the harshest words from our own community.

[Courtney Bartok]

You know what? I think I watched a video recently of Candice Braithwaite. She was talking about something that simply Shil had spoken about, which is that when people see a particular kind of woman, I think in this context they were talking about like a dark skinned woman, a plus sized woman, or someone who they consider to be outside of who they think deserves success and happiness. Yeah. When they see that Person, successful and happy, it enrages them. And she was talking about it from a. She. Candice was talking about it from the standpoint of. Because for them, that was the person they always compared themselves to as. As to say, at least I'm not this person. Do you get what I mean? At least I've got my issue, but at least I'm not this kind of person in society. And so it really upsets them when that kind of person who they considered unworthy is now doing better than them in their eyes. I think what's sad is that in our society, a lot of people's internalized belief about who can and cannot sit succeed. Black women are not in that image. Black women are not in that picture. But if it was not, let's be real, if it was not for media and social media, how many people have even been exposed to successful black people that part. Successful black women. Black women who are not struggling, who are not the caricature portrayed by media outlets of the struggling, unlovable, unsuccessful, uneducated, whatever. Insert on everything here and they are it. Right. That's what the black woman is. Right. It's the baby mama, it's the. The Jezebel, it's the whatever, the food stamp queen. Like, it's whoever. Those are the archetypes that have been pushed for a long time.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Then you go on your phone and you see a black woman who is none of those things, or who just has the financial means to be whatever she wants to be, who has succeeded in her work, succeeded at everything, who, whether she's a nepo baby or not, she's got money. Right. She's succeeding at the capital capitalism game. You will probably think to yourself, how dare she? How did she? And why not me? So that's what I think ruffles people's feathers about when black women are successful because it calls into question, well, how? Well, why. Well, why do you need an answer to that question? It just is. It just is. The person is successful. And I think you can see it in a lot of the successful women that exist. Look at your Serena Williams. Look at Beyonce. Like, look at all the people who are at the top of their game, whether you like them, you don't like them. One thing you cannot deny is these people have. Are epitomes of success. Yeah. They have really demonstrated what it's like to, To. To succeed at that cross section. Right. At that cross section of not just patriarchy, but particularly capitalism.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

They have shown what it's like to succeed in that realm for some people, they can't stand it. And I think we see that play out in. In, through or for. Towards influencers. That's the word I'm looking for. We see that play out towards influencers because how dare you have just picked up a camera and now you're telling me. You are a worldwide sensation.

[Renee Kapuki]

Wow.

[Courtney Bartok]

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[Courtney Bartok]

And genuinely I think there's a lot of outrage. Like I even this is a bit tangential, but I look at like the hate that Ayesha Curry been getting recently.

[Renee Kapuki]

That one in of itself is a whole podcast episode on and I was.

[Courtney Bartok]

Watching an episode of here's the Thing, one of my favorite podcasts. And Kev, Kevin and Angel were talking about how there's a very interesting thing that happens in people when they see somebody who they believe should be happy because they have everything that that person desires. There's something that enrages them about seeing that person complain. Because to them if I were in your shoes, I would never be unhappy. But that's not necessarily true, right? Because money doesn't necessarily guarantee happiness.

[Renee Kapuki]

No, it doesn't.

[Courtney Bartok]

And I think it's the same thing when people see creators. They're just like you literally have everything by, from what is my perspective, very easy work. So why would you be a human? Why would you Complain. Why would you not respond to me? Why would you not serve me in a particular way? And that's where that comment of. Of I made you who you are comes from. And people hold it over black women in particular. They hold it over women a lot, right? And that's often because women are seen as influences, whereas men are seen as content creators. Content creators are. That's a job. That's a craft. Influencers is just a product of being made popular, Right? And so it centers the people who have helped you. It centers your followers. Whereas content creators centers the creator. The creator has created the art, the video, the media that has brought their success. Whereas an influencer. Look at how much hate Molly may get. That's a person who's been built up by the fact that we like you, and so you need to keep us liking you. That's not true. It's the business acumen. But women are often not given that same credit, and let alone black women. So it's kind of this continual attempt to humble you because I made you who you are. How dare you not be grateful? And how dare you also not bend to me wanting you to be a particular kind of person? For me, I think that's really cruel and unfair. But that's kind of. That's the scheme that Todd set up. That is a scheme that Todd set up. To come with you with the bs. That's literally it. It's a scheme that Todd set up.

[Renee Kapuki]

I feel that we may need a Courtney's Sociology corner.

[Courtney Bartok]

Oh, my gosh, guys, I really want to do, like, a. I think I might do a PhD or something. I've been toying with the idea because I love sociology, man.

[Renee Kapuki]

Dr. Courtney, I'm just gonna put it.

[Courtney Bartok]

What's the next thing?

[Renee Kapuki]

Dr. Courtney. However, if there is anybody listening that has the power to give honorary doctorates.

[Courtney Bartok]

Anybody.

[Renee Kapuki]

If you have that power. Again, don't email the hello. Come to us directly. We'll answer that one. So if you have the power, the authority, if there's anybody that you know that has the authority to give us honorary doctorates, please, we will accept, because we will be out here with all sorts of nonsense takes. We'll do the work, but that'd be.

[Courtney Bartok]

How we'd be bold. Hey, Doctor.

[Renee Kapuki]

And Doxo. Our kids would not know the end of it. But I think that your explanation of that was so articulate, but also so on the money. Like, I think you've really grasped that. That inner rage that people have.

[Courtney Bartok]

Rage is a word, Renee. I can't Find enough words, that girl bubbles up, man. Like, I'm angry.

[Renee Kapuki]

And I love the distinction you made between content creators and influencers and the fact that even within this realm, women still have they will. It's almost like we can never escape the fact that we have to perform in order to be validated. If you're a content creator, you're respected as a profession, you have technical skills, whereas if you're an influencer, people just like you. Yeah, but as you mentioned, there's a lot of people that people like. But to turn like into GBP is a very hard thing. Trust me, we're there. Trust me. We have seen it. It's hard. It's not an easy thing.

[Courtney Bartok]

It's not an easy thing.

[Renee Kapuki]

It's not an easy thing. And I think there is, I think it is very much representative of how society functions and how society views women, even in the sphere of content creation more generally, even in the sphere of how the audience interacts with content creators and influencers that are women. And I think it also not to be like deep or anything, but I think it just mirrors how black women more generally are seen in society. We are here to perform at will, but heaven forbid you step outside or stand outside of what, what caricature has been created of you. That's very uncomfortable for me. And I love the fact that you mentioned the comparison. The comparison, right. Because a lot of us internally will be comparing ourselves to these people, not realizing that actually it's our own envy and jealousy that is doing us when we see somebody that's successful and rather than dealing with it, we're like, how dare you come to this height of success? Or how dare you be a black woman that's got like six figures? Like, ah, the rage of seeing black women with money.

[Courtney Bartok]

Money.

[Renee Kapuki]

You guys actually want us impoverished, literally. Because the, the actual rage that I have seen online from black, from all people, including black women themselves, sorry to say. Oh, she's a six figure entrepreneur that has been blacklisted in our community. Blacklisted, literally.

[Courtney Bartok]

But that's also because people have been la basting us.

[Renee Kapuki]

Don't worry, that's part two. Don't worry, I'm coming to that, I'm coming to that. Because this is not just about, oh, you know, content creators are all great and all that kind of stuff. Don't worry, influences will come to you because some of you guys are actual in itself.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

But the actual genuine anger, frustration that a lot of people project onto content creators or even people in Real life in general. Right. It needs to be studied, but it also does need to be dealt with because I think it's unhelpful, especially considering one of the, like. One of the key reasons that a lot of us like these influencers is because they are filling a gap.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

We don't see ourselves represented. And I think there's something actually quite beautiful about seeing the evolution of somebody from what I looked like to what.

[Courtney Bartok]

I could be like.

[Renee Kapuki]

And rather than seeing it as a, oh, gosh, I feel like I'm inadequate. It's actually aspirational. There are some incredible black women out there that I'm like, I've been rocking with you since you were doing some nonsense online. Like, you were out here.

[Courtney Bartok]

This is where you are now.

[Renee Kapuki]

You were out here with the fuzzy cameras and the too bright concealer and stuff like that. I was rocking with the milk of magnet. I was rocking with you guys from way back when. And I'm gonna rock with you now because it's showing me, oh, gosh, these are the heights that I can go to. It's like, yeah, maybe I was using sleek makeup before, but you know what tutus. Now we can afford small, small Dior. You know, maybe just the concealer. Just because, you know, the foundation. Yeah. Small, small deal.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

But I actually wanted to move the conversation onto the other side of, you know, the getting woman. And that is the very real reality that there are some influencers, content creators, people in real life that are, to use your term, trying to stunt. And as creators, as people, as individuals, we still do have a duty of care to our communities, the people that we care about, the people that we love, and the people that. That did rock with us from, you know, way back when. So talk to me a little bit about, like, the mind of the influencer, the creator that has now shifted. They're now out here stunted with their bags and their perfumes and their lip glosses and whatnot. Or the creator that has completely changed their content. Perhaps they were doing up the I'm here for the girlies, and now they found a man. And things have changed because we've seen. We've actually seen, and it's quite scary. We've actually seen the downfall of creators because of who they've decided to. To marry, attach themselves to. But it's also.

[Courtney Bartok]

Look at Nicki Minaj. I'm so sorry. I know the Barbs. Please stay back.

[Renee Kapuki]

Stay back. We are covered by the blood of Jesus. Stay back. Get away. Because I agree with you. Get away. Please. But we have literally seen women who have abandoned ship, aborted mission from their brand and actually introduced these third parties or different things in their lives that have absolutely destroyed their image in the face of the community. I think, Nikki, that was a perfect, perfect example. But yeah, talk to me about that. About the fact that there are people who unfortunately, they turn their back on their own communities.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, I think it's a very weird, wild, wild move. Like it's very short sighted. I think, number one, you have to decide as a person, what do I want to represent in my life. Right. If you are deciding no, my, I want to be the height of luxury. Right. Lean into it.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

But recognize that it's going to mean to some degree either converting Siri.

[Renee Kapuki]

Even Siri said, yeah, that's what I thought, girl. Go on.

[Courtney Bartok]

Recognize that it's going to mean converting an audience who thought one way and thought of you as one, perceived you one way into understanding the new version of you and also wanting what you display, which is possible because they might have evolved as well. I think you gave a perfect example of that. Okay. You represent something that I also want to see in my life. This kind of progression in this direction. Fine. But also recognize that it's going to mean that you lose some people and be okay with that. Don't now go throwing around. Oh, people are just jealous. People are just haters. No, baby, I just don't like your content no more.

[Renee Kapuki]

And sometimes your content is actually bad.

[Courtney Bartok]

And this doesn't align with who I want to be anymore. You know, if you've gone in the direction of leaning into luxury. But I've gone on my own journey and now I'm divesting and I'm doing, you know, minimalism. We are no longer compatible.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

And that's gonna take my subscription away because I also control my feed. Yeah, it's that simple. The same way, control what you put out, I control what I consume. So I think everyone should be okay with everyone's evolution and be okay to believe. Just as in real life relationships, some people are just there for a season and that's okay. I also think that unfortunately though for some people there's this desire for, I think one controversy. A lot of people believe that controversy sells and so they lean into it. And personally for me, I don't think that's the type of reputation you should want. I don't think that's the type of success you should desire. And you can say that's just me playing it safe. A lot of people have Built successful careers on controversy. Let's look at President Trump. You know, let's be serious.

[Renee Kapuki]

He got to the highest office here. That one is crazy.

[Courtney Bartok]

Who am I? Who am I? Who am I?

[Renee Kapuki]

No, when you deepen, that's a crazy. Crazy, right from where President Trump came from.

[Courtney Bartok]

Thank you very much. Crazy, in fact, from where he came from where he is.

[Renee Kapuki]

Oh, my gosh.

[Courtney Bartok]

Where he came presently.

[Renee Kapuki]

Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Some people have built whole careers off of controversy. You have to decide whether you are made of that kind of material. Yeah. You have to be with style, that kind of thing. I think that. Sorry, I can't lie to you. I've actually forgotten your question.

[Renee Kapuki]

No, it's fine. The Trump point even just threw me off. But, yeah, the. The creators that are now, you know, they're introducing new things. They've decided to lean into. They have a relationship or whatnot, but basically they've decided to switch it up.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

And abandoned their community.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah. That's the thing. I think it's recognizing to some degree, as much as we just talk about people trying to humble us, let's even just look about. Look at this from a business standpoint. Every business is nothing without its customer or its client. They are absolutely nothing. And they'll recognize it. Like, if I offend my market, I am finished. And I think embracing that awareness and humility as. As a person, as a personal brand who is there for the business, looks like bringing your community on that journey with you. Not necessarily letting you control them. Letting them control you, rather, because how many companies have we see? They've pivoted. They've pivoted. That's just.

[Renee Kapuki]

And they just.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, they just decided, this is who we're gonna be.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Right. But then there's also companies that say, okay, we try to pivot, but we're going back to what we used to do. Because you guys don't like that. You know, you guys don't like that. And I think there's. There's that beautiful way of growing, evolving with your community in a way that doesn't let them control you, but is truly collaborative.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Right. And serves them in a way and allows them to decide what they're gonna do, but also allows you to decide who you're gonna be without it feeling forced on either party. I also think there's another thing that creators need to embrace. And maybe this is my own personal bias, because this is how I kind of approach our platform.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

My platform. But I think the more successful you are, the more you need to Recognize you have a responsibility. Correct. And I think many trends and research reports have shown that a lot of younger people and younger audiences like people who have a particular moral stance and moral compass and use their impact and their influence. Especially the more people become resentful of capitalism and patriarchy and all these things, who use the influence that they have or the capital resources that they have to for good, for actual objective good, they use their platform for good. I think what people need to recognize and I think Ryan Trahan, though, he is a man, but I'm sure there are so many other female examples and we are even example. The more you become big, people don't just want to see you pivot into more material goods.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

They also want to see you doing good. They want to see you use your platform for some kind of positive force for change. And I think not enough influencers, content creators, whatever, lean into that.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

For people to be okay. We don't care that like if you buy a new Chanel, okay, that's fine. But I know you've got enough money to do something for someone, and maybe if you did that, I think that's why people are okay with Mr. Beast. Right? Mr. Beast, biggest creator right now in the world.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yet this man is always giving out money. This man is always.

[Renee Kapuki]

He'd be making you jump for hoops.

[Courtney Bartok]

For it, but now it ain't as much money as he made.

[Renee Kapuki]

Jimmy.

[Courtney Bartok]

Jimmy, we know ain't as much money as you got in your pocket, but it's something. It's considerable. It's enough to make people say, you know what? We're okay with you becoming wealthy. Yes. There's the privilege of him being a white man, but also there's just that element of, ah, we're not that pissed. You're responsible because you, you, you responsibly steward what you have, you know, and it's the same with thing with Ryan Trahan. Yes. We know he makes millions, but he was on a couple of podcasts recently because he did a. A challenge where he went to 50 states in 50 days.

[Renee Kapuki]

Wow.

[Courtney Bartok]

And stayed in Airbnbs in each one and rated them. Whatever. But along it, he was raising money for a charity, I believe it's called St. Jude's in the States. And literally raised millions in a couple of days.

[Renee Kapuki]

Wow.

[Courtney Bartok]

Raised millions because that's how you use. And he, he himself, his brand that is stocked in Target, they gave, they donated, like all of these things. See how he's bringing one of the big. The first donor, I think was Mr. Beast like, that's how you use your influence to do something for good. It almost even it makes people ignore the fact that he makes so much money himself personally. And so I think as an influencer, corporate socialist, you are a corporation. Corporate social responsibility is going to be a huge PR tool for you moving forward, especially the bigger that you get. And I think not enough people are leaning into that aspect of things. I'm not saying just do charity for a performance, but there is an aspect of you showing people, hey, I do love a luxury good here and there, but I also care about people, and I'm not out of touch with people because I think another reason why people hate influencers, and sometimes rightfully so, is people don't know how to read the room. Don't know how to read the room. We are talking about children dying in wars, the fact that we are in an economic crisis, and you have come with another hall where the sum of everything you have bought is about somebody's house, the value of somebody's home. Read it. Read it. And I know it's not everyone's situation, but you have to know that you are a. You are more than just a corporation. You are also a media corporation. Right. And media corporations have to be so careful messaging. They have to be so careful about their messages. And so I know you may have started this as a really casual creator, but now because you are big, big, you cannot afford to be casual in your approach. You have to actually be intentional. You have to be curated. You have to be careful. And so I think the desire to stunt is us just falling into the traps of capitalism. Yeah, Capitalism will make you want to stunt because, hey, give us more money. It costs a stunt.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

So if you can pay that price, buy it. But it will cost you certain things to do with your reputation. I think 1. One scripture that I live by is a good name is worth more than riches. The essence of building a personal brand is why I'm really passionate about it, is when you're building a personal brand, you're more than building a business and making riches. You are building a good name that will take you a lot further. And that's why you have to be so carefully considerate with how you do it and what you do.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, it's giving Courtney Sociologicals corner. We need to think of a nicer name for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. With your glasses on and everything. We need to think of a nicer name for it. But I think, think no, because I. I love me a good video essay. On YouTube as well. There's a babe that. Oh, she recently has been leaving YouTube. I think her name is Khadija. Yeah, she used to do the most incredible, like, video Essays on YouTube about trends like the Internet population as response to various different things. And it's giving. It's giving Courtney's corner coming up soon. It's giving that.

[Courtney Bartok]

I also think on that as well. By the way, this is why not everyone needs to be a lifestyle creator. If you just stick to your niche, no one even needs to know that you own a million Hermes bags.

[Renee Kapuki]

And it's like, what are we doing?

[Courtney Bartok]

Unless that's your niche, I guess.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, unless. But how many people do you get?

[Courtney Bartok]

What? I mean, if you are an essayist, what they call them.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, the video. Yeah, there you go.

[Courtney Bartok]

If you're a video essay creator, why. Why are you pivoting to show us your LV bags? Lean into your niche, Lean into your heat. And if you want to do that, that's when you create a separate page.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

You know, I remember when Jackie Aina created lavishly. Jackie or something like that.

[Renee Kapuki]

Like, perfect. Yeah, do that thing and keep the central. It's even like when creators start like updating their makeup routine. We've gone from Elf and sleek to the Estee Lauders to the two Face. All them things there. But they still will be like, oh, there's still a drugstore affordable alternative that you can do that works just as. As good. Because I can't afford to be out here going to Sephora every. Do you know, so far, I don't care how much money you make. Sephora. John Lewis. Love you guys. And if you want to sponsor us ever, please, all of your. And I also do love a good meme that I don't know if you've seen those memes that are like, how I will act with money or like how I will in fact let the money change me.

[Courtney Bartok]

And I think that's another thing that actually is funny about this whole thing. Because if it were you, you would actually do worse. Like, people will be in the comments judging, but if it were you, in fact, you'll be doing this video with a fur jacket. You get what I mean? You would be the odds Smoke.

[Renee Kapuki]

Listen, you people that think that we have alone, I assure you, I know things are looking mildly different. I assure you, the moment we hit big, you might not even hear from us. Like this podcast might not even. It might be no more. Might be no more. You guys are worried about us getting married and talking about men. You need to be worried about when we come into real money because I'm kidding. I'm playing. I'm playing because I'll be acting, I'll be acting brand new. No, I'm kidding. I'm always down for the girls. And I love what you were saying about corporate social responsibility. That is so true. We actually have. And I think, I think people wrestle between the. I shouldn't expect much from influencers because I view them all to kind of be empty airheads to. As somebody with this level of influence, you actually have a responsibility to doing social, social good. And I think we, because we bop between the two extremes of actually I have zero expectations to. My expectations are too, too high. We're always going to be disappointed when really it is actually something in the middle. Right. It's understanding as consumers. Actually. Influencers, they're not our primary ministers, they're actually not our government officials. Things are going to change. They're going to want to lean into certain things and pushing certain messages. However, as influencers, as business people with business acumen, as entrepreneurs.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

That are making money from views and attention, we do have a responsibility to steward what we have been given.

[Courtney Bartok]

Well, yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

And I think that it doesn't even necessarily have to be as showy or anything like that, but strive to do good.

[Courtney Bartok]

Always.

[Renee Kapuki]

The core good book. The good book says don't get tired of doing good. Some of us have not even started doing good. We just. And you know what kills me? It's like when influencers come into money and then suddenly everything they do is just about money.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

Just about ad after ad after ad. You got this ad after, sponsored by this person, ad after, get this get.

[Courtney Bartok]

And you know what? I've been there like, I've been at that point where just like maybe you've lost the love for your content or for creating content.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Or you're feeling quite uninspired. But obviously now this is your job, job. So you have to do something, something. But I think what I've learned from my mistakes but also just journeying on this thing of like creating content for nine years, it's take your community on the journey.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Like just be honest about that, guys.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

I am tired.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

I don't want to create content and they love it. But babies, these lights got to stay on. So by this, this thing, my coupon code.

[Renee Kapuki]

It's the coupon code. Cuz don't try and sell it to me. Just tell me you're like, babe, tell me you're struggling. I want to help you. Let me help you. Don't come and say oh this is the best and you know what? Sorry I know that this is even going on longer than it's supposed to it. Have you seen the critique of like food bloggers? No, how basically food bloggers. You can tell that they're just being sponsored every time. This is the best.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah guys get it quickly.

[Renee Kapuki]

Doordash everything that enters into their lips.

[Courtney Bartok]

Oh my God, how greedy. Like integrity.

[Renee Kapuki]

And you know that it's like yeah, this is so good. You're not even giving up us any adjectives.

[Courtney Bartok]

Not a single description.

[Renee Kapuki]

Just our so good.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yummy.

[Renee Kapuki]

This is the best sauce and you know every single video is this is the best insert food. This is the best hamburger I've the best fries I've ever nto cheese. God.

[Courtney Bartok]

It's true. You're right. Right.

[Renee Kapuki]

But me, I've even forgotten my. Some of those videos. Yes, exactly. Using it responsibly. Sorry. Some of those food blog are the critique of them. I can't lie. Those are funny because they're so accurate.

[Courtney Bartok]

They are, they are. It's quite sad really. But choose to be different, please.

[Renee Kapuki]

To be different. Use your platform responsibly. Let's all collectively do good in the world, you know, strive to do good things. I know a lot of people like starting up lots of stuff for the money. Yeah. And lots of people. Maybe it's not even the money, maybe it's the status or access to people and stuff like that and that's why people now change up on us. But I think at the end of the day strive to do good things.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

And. And also listen to your community. Like I think if there's one thing that I've, you know, loved about TMS is how for the most part everyone is so respectful about their feedback. Yeah. Genuinely like guys, what do you figure they're like really I don't know about this. Or like you know, sort this out. This ain't that great.

[Courtney Bartok]

Or you know what? Just super supportive as well. We've been blessed to have a really supportive community.

[Renee Kapuki]

Very supportive to the point where if somebody says something left I know the.

[Courtney Bartok]

Girls going to get defend us. I think that's because we get what we give though. We are advocates for our community.

[Renee Kapuki]

We try to get. They always get it right.

[Courtney Bartok]

But I can't really think about when we've got it wrong.

[Renee Kapuki]

So.

[Courtney Bartok]

I think we try to be advocates for our community and you get that in response in return. Sorry. So maybe that's another thing as well, like, really going hard for your community.

[Renee Kapuki]

And to be honest, I think that's what people want.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah.

[Renee Kapuki]

More than just being relatable. I think they actually want an advocate because you become their voice in that space. And once you change, I can see how for a lot of us it's like, oh, now I've lost my voice in this space. And I think that's why, especially for women like us, it's doubly important for us to remain relatable. I think maybe the word is not even relatability, it's advocacy. Yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

Because I think of the hate someone like Jackie Aina gets.

[Renee Kapuki]

Right. I think.

[Courtney Bartok]

But Jackie's message has never changed. Like, she's always been fighting for the inclusivity of dark skinned women in the makeup community, whether it be from a product standpoint, a campaign standpoint, anything. She's never been afraid to call out brands. She's just always been an advocate for this particular community. Yes, the products might have changed. Yes, the quality of the content, yes, the type of content may have changed, but the messages always remain the same. And I think if people can underpin that thing, they will find they have way more longevity in this career as well.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, for sure. I think the last thing that I'll say to that is sometimes it's okay to find new creators or new representatives. Like this is they do not have to stay, like, hearkening to your point earlier about, like this image that they have of somebody in their mind. If they don't fit that image, go and find somebody that does more. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, listen, even us guys, stay with us though. We know that you've been rocking. Please stay with us. Don't go anywhere, please. I'll show up at your door. I'll show up at your doorstep. I know where some of you guys. But even with us, it's like knowing that, okay, there may be some people that listen and they're like, oh, you.

[Courtney Bartok]

Know, not really for me.

[Renee Kapuki]

I'm not really, you know, I'm looking for something. Go and fill it with somebody else.

[Courtney Bartok]

Yeah, please.

[Renee Kapuki]

As long as it's not something from the red pill manosphere. Don't ever go there.

[Courtney Bartok]

What a crazy arc that would be. If you've gone from this podcast to now wanting red pills.

[Renee Kapuki]

What did we do?

[Courtney Bartok]

Oh, my gosh.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, you have to send me an email. You have to. I will headlock you before you leave this community to go to. Are you sick? I will headlock you. You're not going anywhere. I Will headlock you before you leave. But it's actually okay to accept that there's going to be you. You're. In order to thrive in anything, you need diversity. Could it just be that your diet, you have just been eating potatoes. You have been eating potatoes and you need protein. Now go and get some. You don't need to let go of potatoes, but you do need to supplement it with something else. And I think too many of us are idolizing and cultivating quite one sided, one dimensional relationships with content creators who cannot be our. Be all and end all. Yeah, we need more people. Yeah. And dare I say it something. We need Jesus who can be all, be all and end all. But that's a separate discussion. Not separate, but actually, it's actually very related. But I think, I think it gives opportunities for new and upcoming creators that are also incredible new and upcoming women that are like. It's not just about having advocacy and having representation in the space, but actually making more space. So I think for us as women, if there's a creator that you're like, oh, I'm no longer messing with them. Think about some of the creators that you can uplift or support. How long can we be doing video for video? Like for like just how long? Less uplift.

[Courtney Bartok]

How long?

[Renee Kapuki]

Oh, I'm a small creator. Why are you still small? It's not fair. Come and support your sisters. So, yeah, sisters. We have. Time has been fast spent. We've, we've enjoyed ourselves. We have.

[Courtney Bartok]

It's been a good been.

[Renee Kapuki]

It's been a good episode, man. But we'd love to hear your thoughts respectfully. If you're disrespectful, nobody will just get deleted.

[Courtney Bartok]

You will get restricted.

[Renee Kapuki]

You will think you're talking, you know.

[Courtney Bartok]

They see what you're saying. So let's not play these stupid.

[Renee Kapuki]

Let me tell you something. We are quick. Let me tell you about the life stage that we're at. We are quick. If you're coming disrespectfully, I might even pin your comments. Yeah, I will pin it. The pin of shame. I'll pin your comment specifically.

[Courtney Bartok]

Not the pin of shame.

[Renee Kapuki]

The pin of shame. Yeah, yeah.

[Courtney Bartok]

The nicest one. The best.

[Renee Kapuki]

The best one. So yeah, exactly.

[Courtney Bartok]

You deserve to be this.

[Renee Kapuki]

Yeah, let's, let's even have a competition. The nicest comment. Open it.

[Courtney Bartok]

Hey, remember a girl called us a lantern. You better be getting your poetry.

[Renee Kapuki]

You see it?

[Courtney Bartok]

You better be getting it.

[Renee Kapuki]

You see it? Lantern. Lights. Somebody called me light today. You see it? So be thinking about how you're going to romance for small but anyway sisters. Yeah, let us know what you think. Like are the girls becoming just not relatable anymore or are content creators wilding? Have you ever experienced getting woman? What's your thoughts? Just we, we we like it when you talk to us, talk to us, talk to us. But if you want to continue to support us, please don't woman us. If you want to continue to support us, please support us on all of our social media platforms. It is at to my sisterhood literally everywhere. Instagram, Tick tock, heck, we're on LinkedIn. You should support us there because we need to get money isn't it? So please support us there as well. And of course you can follow us on our individual platforms. You can follow my lovely articulate sociological doctor at CD Bartok. I'm saying it. Listen so when it happens you can refer back to this episode Dr. Courtney, that's right. And you can of course come and follow me over at Renee Kapuki.

[Courtney Bartok]

We love to to see it. And make sure you sign up to our mailing list over on our website to my sisters.com for all the updates pertaining to to my sisters. Genuinely so many things on the horizon and we want you to be a part of it. So make sure that you are signed up to the email notifications as well as just a love letter from us. Each week serious gems are dropped, period. We hope that you enjoy the rest of your week and as always, keep keep glowing and growing.

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