The Trad Wife Fantasy Is Falling Apart… Here’s Why

Summary

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To My Sisters Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title: "The Trad Wife Fantasy Is Falling Apart… Here’s Why"

Hosts: Courtney Daniella, Renée Imafidon
Date: July 19, 2026

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Overview

Courtney and Renée dive into the cultural phenomenon of the “trad wife” (traditional wife) trend, its origins, why it’s recently gained traction online, and why the fantasy is unraveling. They dissect the allure and dangers of pursuing a traditional, stay-at-home wife lifestyle, examine generational shifts in women’s roles, and challenge assumptions on both sides of the debate about ambition, autonomy, and partnership. The episode is both an exploration of historical gender roles and a real talk about self-preservation, legacy, and modern relationships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rise of the Trad Wife Trend

[12:40–14:49]

• Definition: The trad wife archetype idealizes women who stay at home, focus on homemaking, and embrace traditional, gendered family roles.
  • “The trad wife movement is simply people saying we need to, as women, go back to being in our homestead… the essence of it is being a kept woman.” — Courtney [11:42]
• Why Now? Societal burnout and disillusionment with capitalism are a primary cause.
  • “It’s because people are tired… the general sense of societal burnout as a result of capitalism has to be at the top.” — Renée [14:10]
• Social/Historical Context: While many think the “trad wife” is a throwback, the archetype became prominent post-World War II as women were pushed out of jobs to re-establish men as providers.
  • “It was… a concerted effort to create this identity for the woman as being the domestic goddess in order to free up a lot of the positions that they had actually taken up whilst the men were at war.” — Renée [14:49]

2. Why the Fantasy is Faltering

[30:45–43:16]

• Illusion vs. Reality: Many online “trad wives” aren’t truly living the lifestyle they portray—often, they’re running businesses from home, maintaining autonomy, or benefiting from modern rights.
  • “You are not actually the traditional wives… you have this mirage you have in your head of ‘oh, I’ve gone back to the 1950s.’ Well, no you haven’t, ‘cause if you had, you’d have to put the camera down.” — Courtney [28:31]
• Financial Vulnerability: Relying solely on a partner for provision is risky and can lead to loss of autonomy and security.
  • “If you date someone and you put your faith in them being able to financially provide for you purely as you being a dependent on them, you put yourself at the mercy of their mood… poverty is on your tits.” — Courtney [32:06, 32:19]
• Replaceability: The trad wife model encourages transactional value, making women “replaceable.”
  • “The scary thing about the trad wife is that she is very replaceable… Men who like trad wives only like you as much as you are useful to them.” — Renée & Courtney [40:50–40:57]
• Legacy and Children: Adopting traditional roles without due diligence can leave children ill-prepared for modern life.
  • “If you do not have the appropriate skills to pass on to the children that you are rearing, they will be stuck in the 1960s in 2070, 2080.” — Renée [38:44]

3. Nuanced Perspectives on Women’s Roles

[22:04–23:33]

• Stay-at-Home Mom vs. Trad Wife: Important not to conflate the two—being a stay-at-home parent is not inherently traditionalist or unambitious.
  • “Being a traditional wife is genuinely a gendered, sociological construct… whereas being a stay-at-home moment is actually—it’s a profession, it’s a job.” — Renée [20:52]
• Economic Context: Gender pay gaps mean women are often the partner expected to pause their careers, but the choice isn’t always a lack of ambition.
  • “Unfortunately by the nature of the gender pay gap, sometimes it makes most sense for the woman to give up her career than the man.” — Courtney [23:33]
• Social Stigma: Both ends of the spectrum—trashing trad wives or stay-at-home moms, or glamorizing them—are unhelpful and perpetuate internalized misogyny.
  • “For women you only feel good about yourself by putting another woman down… That’s the essence.” — Courtney [49:09]

4. Relationship and Financial Best Practices

[44:06–47:44]

• Transparency and Ownership: If opting for any form of financial dependence, legal and financial protections are essential.
  • “Put some stuff in writing… If you are going to stay at home, I need you to really go and look at your pension and get that man to show you that he is contributing to your pension fund whilst you’re taking care of his children.” — Courtney [44:56]
• Healthy Partnership: The desirable family dynamic is built on mutual trust, transparency, and recognition of each partner’s contributions.
  • “Those things only work when there is transparency and trust.” — Courtney [46:52]
  • “Any man who is intimidated by you bringing up financial transparency… is trying to hide something from you.” — Courtney [46:05]

5. The Dangers of Making Life Decisions Based on Internet Trends

[53:02–54:07]

• Critical Thinking is Essential: Social media personas (on both sides of the spectrum) can be misleading; followers must make independent decisions.
  • “Don’t be deceived… never replicate your life off of what people are saying on the internet.” — Courtney [53:02]
  • “Critical thinking and being your own person is the most powerful thing you can do in the attention economy.” — Renee [53:57]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On why trad wife content appeals:
  “There is something seductive about this idea… we now become somebody else’s problem to protect. We now hand over our autonomy to somebody to take care of us—to be the provider.” — Renée [17:10]
• On mutual contribution in relationships:
  “There’s a superpower in the dynamic of the person who goes out to work and then the person who can hold down the family… But those things only work when there is transparency and trust.” — Courtney [46:42]
• On the risks of financial dependence:
  “You put yourself at the mercy of their mood. As soon as they decide that they are not in the mood to financially support you anymore, it’s curtains for you.” — Courtney [32:06]
• On internalized misogyny among women:
  “For women, you only feel good about yourself by putting another woman down. Because society has made us feel like that and so we perpetuate it all the time. It’s internalized misogyny.” — Courtney [49:09]
• On critical thinking and self-reliance:
  “Critical thinking and being your own person is the most powerful thing that you can do in the attention economy.” — Renée [53:57]

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Important Timestamps

• [04:24] — Friendship Dilemma & handling conflict
• [12:40] — Trad wife aesthetic explained
• [14:10] — Societal burnout and the appeal of trad wife content
• [17:33] — Historical origins post-WWII and societal shifts
• [20:52] — Difference between stay-at-home mom and trad wife
• [23:33] — Gender pay gap, economic anxieties
• [28:31] — Illusions vs. reality of trad wife content
• [32:06] — Financial and emotional risks of trad wife model
• [38:44] — Legacy and risk for future generations
• [40:50] — Replaceability and transactional nature of trad wife
• [44:56] — Practical tips on legal/financial protection and transparency
• [46:42] — Building partnerships with trust and transparency
• [49:09] — Internalized misogyny and women policing each other
• [53:02] — Dangers of modeling life on social media trends
• [53:57] — Importance of critical thinking in the age of social media

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Tone and Language

The episode features Courtney and Renée's signature blend of warmth, humor, and tough love—balancing nuanced cultural critique with practical “big sister” wisdom. Their candor, occasional cheeky quips (e.g., “poverty is on your tits”), and compassion for all women involved in the debate make the conversation engaging, accessible, and empowering.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The trad wife trend appeals as an escape from economic and social pressures, but the fantasy is often built on nostalgia, selective memory, and modern privilege.
• Becoming financially dependent on a partner has real risks; partnership models should be based on mutual respect, transparency, and shared security.
• There’s danger in demonizing stay-at-home moms or glamorizing traditional roles—nuance and support for women’s choices is essential.
• Don’t let social media shape your life decisions—wise choices come from critical thinking and personal agency, not trends.

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Final Words:
“Let’s all be wise. The tradition wife thing—throw it in the bin. But also, don’t put down women who make different choices than you. Both ends of the spectrum miss the point: your life, your choice, but be informed, be protected, and above all, be wise.” — Courtney & Renée [48:31–54:10]

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Transcript

[Renee]

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[Courtney]

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[Courtney]

we are chiming into the conversations around Trad Wives. Okay.

[Renee]

We've had a period of X amount of years where women have shown that they are perfectly capable of taking up roles that are traditionally assigned to men.

[Courtney]

Unfortunately, by the nature of the gender pay gap, sometimes it makes most sense for the woman to give up her career than the man.

[Renee]

We are seeing a lot of men are being pushed out of these fields again.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

We are now fighting with men for positions. We are now seeing very atypical family types where both partners are working because the economy demands that everybody should be working.

[Courtney]

My personal belief is if you date someone and you put your faith in them being able to financially provide for you, you put yourself at the mercy of their mood. Yeah, poverty is on your tits.

[Renee]

The scary thing about the trad wife is that she is very replace as

[Courtney]

women we can think again that same thing of like, you're just betting on this man being nice to you. No, baby, you need to put some stuff in right?

[Renee]

Hello. Hello and welcome to the To My Sisters podcast. I'm Renee.

[Courtney]

And I'm Courtney and we are your online big sisters and hosts of the To My Sisters podcast.

[Renee]

Now we are all about promoting the wellness, growth and development of a community of sisters across the the world.

[Courtney]

And in today's episode, we are chiming into the conversations around Trad why? Okay. From staying at home to going to work, from being ambitious to being too ambitious, there are so many conversations surrounding women and how women show up in romantic relationships and domestic situations and how they do family lives that we just need to cut through the noise with some sense, some nuance, and some wisdom. So we're here to deliver just that. But before we get into it, do we have any housekeeping announcements?

[Renee]

I think the house is swept.

[Courtney]

Fantastic. Well, then we can go straight into

[Renee]

a ding, ding, ding.

[Courtney]

D Someone is in need of help. Hey, besties.

[Renee]

Oh, besties. How warm, how lovely, how inviting. Hey, besties.

[Courtney]

Hey. I need your advice. I've been friends with this girl since we were little, mostly because our moms are close, but. But over time, we became genuinely really close to ourselves.

[Renee]

Amazing.

[Courtney]

Especially in the last couple of years, we were going through similar things. Heartbreak, big exams, all of that. So we leaned on each other a lot. Recently, something happened with another friendship of hers, and I didn't fully agree with how she handled it. I told her honestly that I felt she could have approached it better. She didn't take that well at all, probably because I usually do agree with her and her response towards me wasn't great. I gave her a few days of space, then reached out, but she ignored my message. I called her the next day and put my pride aside to apologize for how I said things, even though I still stand behind what I meant. She didn't apologize or try to understand my perspective or the other person's. And after that call, she's continued to ignore me. Oh, this is someone I used to speak to every day. I'm really disappointed in how she's handled this. I do miss her, but seeing the side of her has left a bitter feeling. And I'm not sure if friendship is worth fighting for anymore. What would you do in my position?

[Renee]

Oh, sis, first of all, so tight. If you're listening to this, I would recommend that you shared the last podcast episode with your back in friendship. Absolutely. We did an episode. Sisters. If you're listening to this right now, on Feedback, Friendship, confrontation, overcoming, all of these kind of things. So I definitely recommend you checking it out, but you also sharing it with your sister, if she would be open to that. This is a tough one. I think you cannot be in control of how somebody else responds to feedback, and I think the way that you handled it sounds very mature. You love her deeply. You've expressed that you don't agree with the way that she handles something, and you know that's fair. When you are in relationship with someone, you can also share pos. Like you can actually critique them. That's okay. And it sounds like you try to do it with as much love and grace as possible. And the fact that you even humbled yourself to apologize for your delivery just shows where your heart is at. I think you've done everything that you can possibly do, but really the ball is in the court of your friend. Maybe she's one of the kind of people that needs a little bit more time to process and, you know, think about stuff. And I think it is probably a bit difficult because you have been a yes man in her camp for so long. Right. This. You've rarely disagreed. I think when you don't disagree with a friend, sometimes it can be a very personal thing. When you have that feeling, first disagreement, it's kind of like, I know you guys have been friends for however, but it kind of feels like when you're in a relationship and you have your first argument, now all of a sudden that person is looking real devilish looking at them like, what? I thought that we were perfect. I thought we were good.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So I think in her mind, she's probably blown this so out of proportion, and it's probably thinking, oh, gosh, like, is this indicative of some serious, like, personality clash or, like, values clash? Obviously, we don't have context as to what the actual issue was, so we can't determine just how deep it for her. But I think you've reached out already. If you want to, you can reach out, give her a bit more space, and then reach out again. And if she ignores you, I think it's also worth her understanding that there's consequences to her being an avoidant. She sounds like a textbook avoidant in her ignoring you completely. And I think not even ignoring, but it even sounds like stonewalling. Like this person is really actively trying to shut you out of their life at the moment. Especially if you've had a relationship whereby you've been speaking every day. This feels very abrupt.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So I think give it a little bit more space. Have a think about it as well, insofar as what this indicates about her, because it sounds like this is the first time you guys have had true conflict.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And I think it's also good that you've stood by what you believe in. Like, it's not actually the content of what you said. Even the delivery shah, sometimes it is what it is. Sometimes there's some things that you can only sugarcoat for. For, you know, for so long. But I think it is important to try and cultivate a relationship where disagreements can coexist without a disproportionate consequence for that.

[Courtney]

Ye. Yeah.

[Renee]

Or, you know, people not taking it personally. So I think it's a good indicator as to where she's at, I think at some point you're even going to have to talk about her response to this. I hope, Sister, if you're listening, please don't ignore after that one. Ignore after that one. Because we are adults and we need to be able to handle disagreements maturely without taking things personally and being able to reconcile that our friend is still a friend, even if we disagree. So good friends have disagreements all the time. This is your first one. And so I would hate for you guys to get to a place where you don't know how to handle disagreements together because this is just the tip of the iceberg in this life. There's going to be so many things that you disagree on. And if you don't have a language with which you can express these disagreements, then that friendship is actually not viable. I don't believe it. In the long term, it won't be viable. So, sis, you've actually done pretty much a lot of what you could do. You've apologized. You were trying to be as empathetic as possible. You did stand 10, 10 toes down on something you believed in. You've given her space. If anything, Sister, I'm talking to you, the other girl. Girl, you need to figure some stuff out. Because icing out a friend is such bad behavior.

[Courtney]

Just because they disagree.

[Renee]

Just because they disagree with you and because you felt called out. Yeah, you. That's life, baby. Sometimes we get it wrong or sometimes people don't agree with how we handled stuff. Even if you are the kind of person that needs a bit of time to process how you're feeling, say that, communicate that, and say, hey, I may have taken this quite personally, or at least have the self awareness to know that you need some time and communicate that to your friend. You've been speaking to this person every day and then you decide not to talk to them because they disagreed with you. Even saying that sounds egregious to me. Sounds like it sounds awful. So stop punishing your friend. Respond to a message or at least say where you're at. Say, I need some space before we talk about this further. And I need you to. Also, we need, when you come back to speaking, you need to come with some clear point, evidence, explanation as to why you reacted the way that you did. No, you do. Because we can't do this every time we disagree. If I tell you I don't like your drink, are you gonna ask me out? Oh, if I tell you, I, you know, what do you think of this dress? Oh, I don't like it. Silence. Yeah, crickets. Or heaven forbid, another bigger disagreement that genuinely requires conversation. I cannot live in fear as a friend of you, I sing me out. That is stonewalling to the nth degree. And you gotta stop that. So, sis, you've done what you can do. If you like, reach out again. But the other sister who this dilemma is about, this is for you. You need to figure things out.

[Courtney]

So good.

[Renee]

But what do you think?

[Courtney]

I completely agree with you. I don't even think I can really add anything. I think you've tried and genuinely, if this is how you've handled the situation, then there's nothing more that you can do. You tried. And I mean, you haven't necessarily done anything wrong to her, apart from disagree with her. Now, if it was a. The way you said it was bad, you've apologized for that as well. Maybe if it was that egregious, then apologize again. But it doesn't sound like she was upset with how you said it. I think it's just what you said.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And sometimes it's hard for people to swallow feedback. Like you said, refer to our last episode. Sometimes it's hard for people to acknowledge that, oh, damn, someone's actually calling me out on my bad behavior. That's down to her really figuring it out. So if I would you, I'll just cool off and give her time. Give her time to figure out what she's doing with her life and hopefully she'll kind of come back to her senses. And once she does, there is a conversation to be had there around. Why did you act like that? Like that? That's not how this is gonna go. You know I love you. I'm here for your best interest. I don't want to see you down bad. So let's just not do that again. If anything, teach me how you want me to correct you. Or, like, give my. Not even correct you, but give my opinion about a certain situation if you truly want it. But, like, don't do that ever again. And it's like you said, it's textbook stonewalling. So what can you do? What can you do but wait? Unfortunately. I'm so sorry to hear that, sis. But thank you for sending your dilemma. If you ever want to send in an ide, send in a dilemma. While the English really almost left me there. If you ever want to send in a dilemma, then you send it to dilemmasomysisters.com or you can submit a form on our website to my sisters.com and please chime into the dilemma what do you think? Leave a comment down below here on YouTube or on Spotify if you are listening to us in your earlobes. Okay, so let's talk about trad wives. Now, obviously a lot has been happening online recently around not only people creating content around this trad wife aesthetic, which I think we've spoken about on the podcast discussed before, but for a little synopsis for you guys who are not chronically online. The trad wife movement is simply people saying like we need to, as women go back to being in our homestead, you know, being stay at home wives, staying at home, stay at home mothers, traditional mothers who are cooking from scratch and are well kept women. Right. The essence of it is being a kept woman. Yeah. Being a woman who doesn't go out to work or doesn't really pursue education or anything like that. But you know, just throw your minds back to, I guess, traditional western housewife. Yeah. Art archetypes.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

That's literally what people are saying that we should go back to. And not only have we seen the rise of that content online, which in itself is quite interesting, I think we have seen now in more recent times, couple weeks, months, people being like, you know what, we're actually heavily revolting against that idea because it's quite unhealthy, it's quite dangerous for women. And a lot of people are going over to the other end of the spectrum because we can never get to the middle. We always gotta go.

[Renee]

One day we'll learn.

[Courtney]

I don't know if we will.

[Renee]

I don't think so.

[Courtney]

But yeah, we've seen a lot of people emerging on the other end of the spectrum to call women who are traditional housewives or stay at home moms, lazy, lacking ambition and kind of now looking down upon the women who. Looking down upon them when the trad wife trend was climbing.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So firstly, I think my question is now that we're seeing a lot of people kind of, I guess, deconstruct this trad wife again. Right. Why do you think the trad wife trend even gained popularity in the first place? Right. Because I think within these kind of things that we see online trends online, I think it's interesting to analyze where the appetite came from that allowed this, this trend to even grow legs. Right. So what do you think was the demand good?

[Renee]

It's because people are tired.

[Quo Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Mazda Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Honestly, like the general sense of societal burnout as a result of capitalism has to be at the top of why trad wives were coming out, creating content. And it was all looking so appealing so when we look at how this whole notion of the trad wife surged in the first place, most people think that trad wife was something that happened donkeys years ago, like 2000 years ago plus. But you are so right in saying that tradwifeism is something that popped up fairly recently and it was actually in response to the World War.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So during the World War, you've got all of these men that have gone off to war and you've got women that are part and parcel of labor. They're part of the labor force. There's no men here that are doing the jobs. They've all gone off to war. And when they returned after war, there was this concerted effort to create this identity for the woman as being the domestic goddess in order to free up a lot of the positions that they had actually taken up whilst the men were at war. So this whole idea and the notion of the trad wife actually comes in response to society trying to find roles for men again at the expense of subjugating women. Despite the fact that we've had a period of X amount of years where women have shown that they are perfectly capable of taking up roles that are traditionally assigned to men. Which is like the jokes almost write themselves in that respect. Because the trad wife movement is all about how women are to be, you know, taken care of and taking care of the home, domestic labor. They shouldn't be. It's all about gendered roles. And society has been very, very instrumental in creating these kind of notions of women's role as a result of that. And so we've seen a trend where the trad wife surges at the decline of society. Like people are going through it. So you've got people coming back from war and their identity has been shaken. You know, the economy, we're trying to bounce back with the economy. Things are just. The whole thing is everything is on fire. I think we are seeing a type of that, a different type of warfare, if you like, where we're seeing a lot of Western societies collapsing. There's a lot of women that have been in the workforce and they are seeing the reality of a economy that is failing. Capitalism is for the most part failing. Inflation is rising. And so there is something seductive about this idea of the trad wife because she is then somebody that it's. It's an attempt to. Well, I don't want to generalize, but there is an attempt to subjugate the woman again now that she has had access to all of this freedom. So freedom of we're seeing women being educated at rates that we have never seen before. We're seeing women own businesses. We are seeing women do the things outside. They are doing men's work again. And I don't think it's a coincidence that we are now seeing the rise of the trad wife in response to that. Just like we saw in with the first resurgence of the tradwife, whatever at the end of war. It's a different type of warfare now, but we are still seeing the same cycle of women rising, women taking up these very, very public facing, male centered domains. And now the tradwife resurgence because we are seeing a lot of men are being pushed out of these fields again.

[Courtney]

Yeah, yeah.

[Renee]

We are now fighting with men for positions. We are now seeing very atypical family types where both partners are working because the economy demands that everybody should be working. Everybody needs to earn a, earn a living. And I think this is also coexisting with the general fatigue that some people feel when it comes to the reality and the burden of labor. There are a lot of us, unfortunately, that think we can escape these troubles by falling under the lure of the trad wife. Yes, this we now become somebody else's problem to protect. We now hand over our autonomy to somebody to take care of us, to be the provider. Even the whole notion of being the provider, there's a power in that. And I think there are some people that are genuinely, and I understand it, it's tiring. It is fatiguing to be a provider. It's fatiguing to take up a lot of these public domains. But this often comes at the expense of your autonomy and your capacity to take care of yourself. So as you mentioned, we're swinging from one extreme to the other. It is, I've got my freedom, I've got my access, I've got all of these things to. I want to hand all of this off because I don't want the responsibility of being a provider. But this also comes at the expense of my actual genuine autonomy. Now I am handing off to this person to take care of me because I don't want to participate in capitalism anymore, despite the fact that you still are. And I think what is actually funny about trad wife content right now is the whole concept of being a traditional wife, especially in the west, is you are not in control of the income. You are not the autonomous person, you are not the, the, the public representation of your household. Why are you out here making content? Why are you out here?

[Courtney]

Are you out here running a Business.

[Renee]

You're running a business from being a tradwife.

[Courtney]

Yeah, there we go.

[Renee]

So you're not actually a traditional wife. If we're gonna like. If we're calling a spade a spade. You are an entrepreneur.

[Courtney]

You are one of the highest kinds, actually, if in plain,

[Renee]

Like, this is your job.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And it's such a beautiful irony because domestic labor, especially in the household, has been demonized so much. Like, as you were mentioning at the start of this episode, we have this idea that women that are traditional wives are lazy, despite the fact that every single thing that she does to keep the house afloat directly impacts the provider's capacity to provide.

[Courtney]

Thank you so much.

[Renee]

Do you know what? Heck, I want a trad wife. I want a trad wife because do you know what it is to come home? You've done the work to come home. The sheets have been changed, the children have been fed, there's food on the table. The house is looking inviting. I don't have to constantly think about things like laundry. I just come. There's a lot of domestic labor that goes unseen and is undervalued, despite the fact that this is critical to the integrity of this household. Yeah. I too want a traditional wife.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And then this is a little bit tangential, but very important. I was listening to some content, watching some things, and the content creator, I can't remember the name of that. The content creator, but she mentioned that it's important to make the distinction between stay at home. What I. A mother, and traditional wife.

[Courtney]

Yes.

[Renee]

Stay at home mother. You can be a stay at home mother at any point in your life. And it doesn't mean that you're a traditional wife, because being a traditional wife is genuinely a gendered sociological construct. You have certain ideals that you are participating in. There's patriarchy. It's rooted in this kind of, sorry, white, Western domesticated ideology. Exactly. Whereas being a stay at home moment is actually. It's a profession, it's a job.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

You're staying at home, you can decide. I'm a career woman, but I'm going to be a stay at home mom for a period in my life. So I think it's also important that we don't conflate the two. And I know that there's been so much unnecessary spiel that's been given to stay at home moms. And I just want to recognize that the work that you're doing is very important. We have. There are people in our lives that are stay at home moms or have been a Stay at home mom for a period of their time. They are still bossing it, they are still doing all the things, they are still incredible. They are still doing labor that is important, important to the household. Heck, some of them are working full time and they are a stay at home mom. So I think it's important that we're talking about the, the resurgence of specifically the trad wife and what that means for us in society.

[Courtney]

I love that. And I think that distinction is so important because the tradwife, like you said, it's an archetype. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like it's a, it's a specific type of archetype. But where I think, and this is why I said the pendulum is kind of swinging too far, is people are talking about the stay at home mom or the young mom or the mum who had to take time out and career because, you know, she wanted to focus on raising children and the children needed the parent at home or her as a parent at home and now bundling her in as somebody who lacks ambition and oh, you don't have career and oh my gosh, you don't have your own money and now that man is just using you. When she's actually trying to do this as a service to her children, I think it, it's unfortunately denigrating and degrading that really important role of, of child rearing.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

In our society, like you're literally raising another generation who need you. Right. And let's not act like, I guess western capitalism is allowing for children to actually flourish because both of their parents have to hustle so hard that now it's left to TV, media, iPads to raise your children because you might not have that time and that's not to shame anyone. Yeah, but I understand. Look, if you're a woman who's having children now, looking at that dynamic being like, you know what? I would rather forego some years in my career because I don't want media to raise my children or I don't want my kids to not remember their parents being home. Especially if you cannot afford hired help.

[Renee]

Yeah. Right.

[Courtney]

Not everyone can afford a nanny. Do you get what I mean? To help raise their children with them. And so there is a valid trade off that people make. And unfortunately by the nature of the gender pay gap, sometimes it makes most sense for the woman to give up her career than the man on the average front. Front. Right. And I think that's something you said earlier about the whole trad wife thing. I think it is a response to people being genuinely tired. And I, I think it seeds out of that place of women sometimes. I often think that when people forget why something has happened in history.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

They begin to resent the privileges it's offered them. That's right. So I think a lot of the trad wife aesthetic and content, the rise of the trend has been from when women were required to enter the workforce in the western world.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

And let's be very specific. When white women were required to join because a lot of other women have

[Renee]

been in the workforce for a long time working since.

[Courtney]

Right. So when these women who were seen as worthy of being protected and provided for and lavished.

[Renee]

Right.

[Courtney]

Were required to join the work workforce, there were people who realized not only are women really good at working, but also working gives them financial autonomy as well.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And so let's not just make this a response to the war, let's make this a norm. Right. Where a woman can have her own money, can have her own right to work, her own right to vote, her own right to an education. Right. Let's actually level out the playing ground and make it equitable and equal. Right. And that's the crux of a lot of feminist movements. Let's just make it equal so that they have. Because like you said, being a provider or having the financial power or capital in a relationship does give you the power. It puts power in your hands. So let's equal the playing ground by also giving women economic power, by also giving them educational power, by empowering them. But when we get further and further away from the origins of that.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

What do women feel and what do people feel? Because men are feeling it too. Right. I am being worked like a dog. This started off as let's join the workforce so that we can have empowerment and autonomy and rights. And now I'm feeling the day to day, generations later, women are now feeling they don't have the memory of what it's like to not have the vote, the right to vote. They don't have the memory of what it's like to, you know, be provided for, but it also be socially stigmatized for you not to provide for your family. Right. They're living in a world where they're being worked like dogs. And also they do not have the social climate and culture where men have to provide for them. And it comes with social consequence if you do, if you don't, sorry. So now there's a bit of a resentment building up of why the heck am I being worked like a dog? And I saw someone Post a TikTok where they're having a conversation with someone else. And they were like, do you really have anything to thank the feminism movement for? Right. And then she was like, well, no, because I'm. I'm working like crazy. And I was thinking, but you're right to vote. You're right to even be on this camera

[Renee]

and post this content.

[Courtney]

Yeah. Came from someone fighting for your rights. The fact that you can read words off a page came from someone fighting for your rights. But I think when we forget that backdrop. All I'm trying to say, when we forget that backdrop, we can now begin to resent the fact that on the other side of it is work that we might not want to do or a change in culture which now has put us, to some degree, on the losing end again. And I find it interesting because then the trad wife aesthetic arises and we're like, you know what? We don't have feminism to thank for anything. And I understand there's, you know, there's radical feminism and feminism that goes too far are, you know. But I'm talking about functional, kind of a grassroots feminism. Let's just say it, like, yeah, right. As much as we can criticize feminism, we cannot ignore the fact that a lot of feminist movements, Right. Have given a lot of women rights.

[Renee]

They really have.

[Courtney]

And as much as now, you can go to work, the fact that you can choose whether you go to work or not is a function of having rights. Right. But we can get so frustrated at the fact that I don't want to work, so I have nothing to thank feminism for. And in Revolt of this feminist movement, I'm going to become a trad wife. It's because you didn't feel the brutal pain of what it was like to have a husband who controls every single decision you make. Right. That's why we have this illusion of traditional wives.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Which is women who still carry financial autonomy, but it's because they are cosplaying as traditional wives, but they actually aren't.

[Renee]

Imagine.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? That's the deception kind of. Of it all. And I think that's why a lot of people are like, one, this is harmful. Two, you're lying to. And three, this doesn't even make sense. There is a deep hypocrisy, hypocrisy at the foundations of this, which is you are not actually the traditional wise. Not at all. In the same way you are idealizing it in your mind. Like there's this mirage you have in your head of oh, I've gone back to the 1950s. Well no you haven't cuz if you had, you'd have to put the camera down.

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[Renee]

Your call has been forwarded to an

[Courtney]

automatic voice message system.

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[Courtney]

If you had, you'd have to turn off all your ads. If you had, you wouldn't be able to have any of this in your name. You would be a slave to your husband working right now. Oh, you're not a traditional wife, but yeah, all that to say I think that a lot of people are trying to revolt against the. I don't like how capitalism has made all of us have this condition of working. Right? And so now my rebellion to that is I'm going to become a traditional wife. But you're actually still feeding into capitalism. You're still working within this structure. And number two, I want us to explore the harmful side of it, right? Because there is that, I guess, illusion of oh, I'm a traditional wife. My husband goes out and he provides and whatever. But now you have people making real decisions offline to, you know, date hypergamously or to make sure that they date a provider or whatever. And now they're putting their financial safety and well being in the hands of a man. And my personal belief is if you date someone and you put your faith in them being able to financially provide for you purely as you being a dependent on them, you put yourself at the mercy of their mood.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

As soon as they decide that they are not in the mood to financially support you anymore, it's curtains for you. Poverty is on your tits. Like you're. That's the end.

[Renee]

Did you say?

[Courtney]

Yeah, poverty is on your tits, literally hanging on the edges of your nipples. Why? Oh, I'm sorry.

[Renee]

It was even a telemarketer.

[Courtney]

But yeah, genuinely like you. If, if you are, if, if you are putting the full responsibility of your safety, you. And when I say safety, I literally mean your needs, like your shelter, how your food, how. All in the hands of someone else.

[Renee]

A man, for that matter, you are

[Courtney]

putting yourself at the mercy of his mood. There's a reason why we only really in nature that that level of power is only given to our parents because they have a biological incentive.

[Renee]

And even then, some of them. Don't begin.

[Courtney]

Thank you so much. They have a biological incentive and legal one. If you malnourish this child, you're going to jail.

[Renee]

You are. Yeah.

[Courtney]

If you don't give this child this need, you're going to jail. Your boyfriend, it's clear on boyfriend, doesn't have that same legal thing hanging over his head.

[Renee]

Did you see that?

[Courtney]

Stay at home boyfriend, stay at home girlfriend.

[Renee]

Girlfriend.

[Courtney]

Yeah. So in that being said, that's one of the gripes I have with it. But what are some of the other dangers that emerge with this trad wife thing? And why are people divesting from the idea and the trend?

[Renee]

So many things, Courtney, like, it genuinely sometimes gives me a headache just thinking about it. Why would you, a grown woman that has full autonomy over yourself and heaven forbid you have children as well, because your children, you are in the same position as your children. It really, it's a shame to see, but sometimes we watch in real time the infantilization of women who become trad wives.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Because now everything that you need is dependent on a man. And yes, there's the. There's good men out there, but anything can happen to them. God forbid they get sick. God forbid they pass away. Yeah. And you don't even know where the bills go, where the bills are paid. And I think there's. It, it exists on a spectrum. I think just generally speaking, it's good practice for any woman to be financially literate and also to understand what the state of affairs is in her house.

[Courtney]

Agreed.

[Renee]

So even if he is the provider, do you know where the money is going? Have you seen the spreadsheets? Do you feel as though you are genuinely a co investor in the funds that he's bringing in? Exactly. Is it his money or is it our money? And I think that's one of the very, very harsh truths of being a trad wife later down the line is that you realize that's not your money, that's his money. And you are a. You're enjoying it now, but you may not enjoy it later.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

I've been seeing on Tick Tock a trend of have you seen older trad wives?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

And the running unfortunate joke was it's rare to see in the ground they're in the they divorced or they are living in cars or, you know, various things. And, and if you are not somebody that likes to plan, then unfortunately you will always be at the mercy of somebody that may not end up liking you in the future.

[Courtney]

That's right.

[Renee]

So if he. And it also means that you have trapped yourself, essentially you don't have the freedom to leave should anything go amiss. Right. And this is not to say that you should be planning to leave a relationship, but you should always think logically. Think logically. Anything could happen and man is fallible table. If that man cheats on you tomorrow, you won't be able to go because you don't have money. If something happens to your kids, you don't have money. You have to ask for permission for this man to give you money. Yeah, we, it, it's ironic because because of the freedoms that we've asked for, you don't have the same legal protection or standing that some of these women back in the day, like these trad women were the property of their husbands. That meant it actually restricted their freedom of movement. You couldn't just go around doing whatever it is you want to do. You're actually the property of this person. And as sad as it is that that was the case, that property, there were certain specific protections that you kind of had in society.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Renee]

In this society, it's not the same cosplay you're playing, you're playing in the faces of the courts because in this land we don't recognize you as property, baby. Not only do we not recognize you as the property of this person, but the property of this person does not belong to you. So if anything was to go amiss, you do not have a foot. You don't have any, like, you have no skin in the game whatsoever. And I think what's also scary about it is you're birthing a legacy. You're creating dysfunction for your kids as well if you don't teach them. Right, right. You really need to think about logically, is this the best way to raise my children in a constantly evolving world? Capitalism is, as we have seen, capitalism is just the beast that keeps on growing. We're seeing new ways of accessing revenue and building economies and all that kind of stuff. If you do not have the appropriate skills to pass on to the children that you are rearing, they will be stuck in the 1960s, in 20, like 70, 20, 80, 20, whatever. Is this the legacy that you want to leave the next generation? Is this the legacy that you want your, your daughters to know about? Like, I genuinely think, oh, if I have kids in the future, what is the legacy of a relationship? What is the framework of a, a autonomous woman that I want to leave as a template for my future children, for my future funds? What is the legacy of a man? What is the template of a man that I'm trying to create? Create for the. Because it's not just impacting you. They are going to run off to go into their own lives and then they're going to be causing dysfunction elsewhere if you don't nip that in the bud here immediately. So I think it's recognized it, especially because one of the ideals of, you know, the trad wife, whatever is, it's patriarchy. You are developing the next generation of people. Are you doing it adequately enough? Are you preparing them for the next generation? Not just for this one, not just for. In the confines of the barnyard and the farmyard and all the, the sourdough bread and all that. Outside of that, are you teaching them to deal with a moving, shape shifting society? Are you wisening them up to the fact that this is an incubator or this is a greenhouse that you're creating here? But as soon as you step out, do you have the necessary adult skills to be able to handle that?

[Courtney]

Yeah, good question.

[Renee]

What does an alternative look like? Some of these tradwives, they don't even have bank accounts that they own. You don't have a bank account.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

To own, to buy stuff, you have to constantly ask somebody else for permission.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

So I think like one of my biggest grievances is the fact that the legacy that is being passed down can be so harmful the further and further we get in this postmodern society, we are moving further. You can rebel all you like, you can return to the 19. I don't care what, what year you want to return to. But you know who is not returning to that year with you? The rest of the world. Yeah, the rest of the world. And I think that actually applies with most things that we hold true to us, Our religious beliefs, our sense of identity, the values that teach and instill in each other and in our children. How are you actually adequately preparing these people with the skills they need to succeed in the future?

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Not just for a past that you have created.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

In your mind. And you, hey, it may be successful for you right now, but have you future proofed for your kids and for you. It's just, to me it doesn't seem sustainable. It's not, it's not, it's not sustainable. Even in the example of the stay at home girlfriend. That man left her. Yeah, that man left her. And what could she do? Nothing. And I think what you were saying around your really behest to somebody's mood is so true and so scary because a lot of us are putting trust in people that may not have liked us in the beginning.

[Courtney]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Because the tried wife really is, is an idea. And a lot of men that are providers or whatnot, they fall in love with the idea of the person. They fall in love with the services of the person. And the scary thing about the trad wife is that she is very replaceable.

[Courtney]

Men, these types of men who like trad wives only like you as much as you are useful to them.

[Renee]

That's it.

[Courtney]

As soon as you stop becoming useful. Because it's a game. If you're going to use me for my money, me, I'm going to use you for your appeal. As soon as you become unappealing to me. Bye age.

[Renee]

Bye you.

[Courtney]

Your period comes. I don't want you anymore. Because this is tit for tat. Because if I lost all my money, you wouldn't be here either. Let's not act like you are here for love.

[Mazda Advertiser]

Ah.

[Courtney]

And so you put yourself in a losing game and you're deceiving yourself to thinking that the odds are in your favor. And this is why a lot of these kind of hypergamy influences and sprinkle, sprinkle and all of these things, they're actually putting women in a very dangerous position because they're not painting the full picture.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

The fact that you're actually signing up to a losing game here. If you're going to use a man for money, data shows the older he gets, the more rich he's going to become. But that man's going to be using you for your beauty. But the older you get, the less beautiful you'll become. Come in. Worldly standards and worldly sense of pure vanity. Right. So you're signing up for a losing game.

[Renee]

But if you're okay with that, go ahead.

[Courtney]

Why would you be okay to lose?

[Renee]

There's many people that are okay with losing, unfortunately. That's terrible. Those are the same people that turn a blind eye to certain. You know, they're the person that they married. He's now on his sixth mistress. Because they are. That's if they're.

[Mazda Advertiser]

They're.

[Renee]

They're lucky. And they're still around, mind you, because some of them, most of them have been divorced.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

But I'm talking about from a. From a financial power point of view.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because if you're. If your man doesn't like you anymore, he can easily write you out of his will.

[Renee]

Oh, 100. He can and they will.

[Courtney]

Exactly.

[Boost Mobile Advertiser]

He can.

[Courtney]

He can at any place take you out of that trust. You're not in it. You're not in it. You were there for that time. You had your time and your time is gone. And that's what I mean by. You're putting yourself at the mercy of someone's mood. You're putting yourself at the mercy of somebody being nice to you and doing a nice gesture to you. But human beings don't work like that.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

People are not just kind to you for memory's sake. Do you get what I mean? If you are no longer useful to me because we were playing a game of Tom and Jerry, tit for tat. Do you get what I mean? Why am I gonna give you a chunk of my wealth just because you helped me build it? You have no entitlement to that.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Unless I decide side to be a nice person to you.

[Renee]

Imagine.

[Courtney]

Why would you want to be at the mercy of that? It's. It's a silly game.

[Renee]

It's.

[Courtney]

But I. I do think. And we have to wrap up this episode unfortunately. But I do think that the trad. Wife thing for me has emerged and it's kind of showed something which is a desire for a. I guess like the, The I. I'm lacking natural terms, but it's almost like a ying and. And a yin and yang in that people are recognizing that actually the family unit can actually work really well if there is this mutual respect and synergy here of I recognize what I'm good at and I'm gonna. I'm gonna. What I want to do. I'm gonna focus all my energy. Right. And I'm trusting you in this partnership to cover the rest and take that as your responsibility.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

So for example if you are going to take care of of the finances of this family by being the one who goes out to work you need to understand that you're taking care of the finances for us all. As in you're not the only person who owns it just be or benefits from it just because you're the person who goes to work for it.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

The same way like you were saying you get to benefit from coming home to a clean house not having to worry about spending your time cooking taking care of the kids. You benefit from that even though you're not the person doing the work work. So the same way you are living in the benefits. I need to live in the benefits. Put my name on the paper. You better put my name on the. I think we think as women we can think again that same thing of like I. You're. You're just betting on this man being nice to you. No babe. You need to put some stuff in writing.

[Renee]

Hello.

[Courtney]

There is a necessity to put these things if you're going to stay out home. I need you to. To really go and look at your pension and get that man to show you that he is contributing to your pension fund whilst you're taking care of his children. Do you get what I mean? Put that thing in writing. If you are going to stay at home and he's taking care of the entire mortgage. That is not just his house. This is still your house too. Put that thing in writing and too many of us are just waiting on the goodwill of men and just banking on. Oh of course he's taking care of it.

[Quo Advertiser]

No.

[Courtney]

The whole point of being an educated empowered person is that you have the education to know how money works. To know how ownership works. And it's not you holding it against him. Right. Any man who is intimidated by you bringing up. Hey could I see our. Are the. The records on the house? Can I see the statement of the mortgage? How much is left? Can I know how the bills are paid? How much of the bills are paid? What money is going where Can I look at your bank statements? Because here are mine as well.

[Renee]

Is000 but you can look at.

[Courtney]

But there's financial transparency. Any man who's intimidated by that? Your man who's trying to hide something from you. And you should be suspicious about that. And so there needs to be, if, if this, think this thing is going to work synergetically, there needs to be transparency between the both of us. And so I don't think there's anything wrong with the synergy aspect of it. Right. If you think. Because. Because I really do think there's a superpower in like the dynamic of the person who goes out to work and then the person who can hold down the family or start a business or just handle some other side.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

That the other person can't because they are focused on maybe a more traditional career. Right. I think that's something so powerful about that. But those things only work when there is transparency and trust.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

And I think what the trad wife thing neglects is the fact that we're not living in the most trusting of times where people are as trustworthy as they used to be. And if there is a crisis of masculinity, if there's a crisis of relationships and covenant relationships, then telling people, especially women, who often men have the least amount of power to put their full faith in a man simply being nice is actually so unwise. So unwise because we're not living in that climate anymore. People don't keep their word as much. And this isn't to fear people because I, I know like we're married to great men.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

I mean, so there are good men out there. But at the same time we're not banking on, oh, he's a good man, everything will be fine. We're not being idle and silly about it. You still have to say, okay, prove it. It prove you're a good man by being transparent now.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Let's not wait till things go topsy turvy. Let's not even anticipate that it ever will. But let's actually prove it now that you are good. Prove it now that you care. Prove it now that you mean what you say. Prove it when you say that this is a partnership by being transparent, by being trustworthy, by being upfront. Do you get what I mean? I think that's what more women need to be empowered to do. I think they shouldn't be made to feel like, like, oh, you shouldn't ask him about money or oh, you shouldn't even prove that you have knowledge about wealth and money or how the household should be run or how businesses shall be run, cuz you'll intimidate him. Any man who will be intimidated by you showing that you are wise is not worthy of having a wise partner.

[Renee]

Not even a family really.

[Courtney]

Because simple as. So let's just. Let's all be wise.

[Renee]

Let's be wise.

[Courtney]

Let's all be wise. The tradition wife thing. Throw it in the bin. Right? But also I think the. The again, the other side of the spectrum of telling trad wives that they lack ambition or not even trad wives, but the stay at home moms and maybe people who are, you know, taken care of. Do you know what I mean? They're just. They. Their man does provide and then not only does he provide, he has put everything in her name and she does have ownership rights.

[Renee]

Like everybody hates each other man.

[Courtney]

For real. And again, it's the thing, unfortunately for women where you only feel good about yourself by putting another woman down.

[Renee]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Courtney]

Do you get what I mean? Because society has made us feel like that and so we perpetuate it all the time. It's internalized misogyny. So I think we need to be careful always to never slip into that as well. Yeah, I don't need to make a woman feel inferior in order to make myself feel good.

[Renee]

Crazy work.

[Courtney]

Like it's just. That's. That's the essence.

[Renee]

And neither of these titles or neither of these spaces are going to get you that. I don't know what it is you're looking for. I think it's God. Actually. There's no genuinely, because we don't have time to talk about it today. But the anti mother, anti child sentiment,

[Courtney]

even the anti wife sentiment.

[Renee]

Like guys, let's relax, let's relax because trust me, I don't like the birds or the Pikmis either. But not everybody that actually is like desiring is. Is a pick me.

[Courtney]

Thank you.

[Renee]

Not.

[Courtney]

No.

[Renee]

And in fact some of you that are fighting these people, you two are actually head.

[Courtney]

Let me tell you something. The other day I was not even. I think it was yesterday. I did. I recorded it, but I didn't want to post it. I saw. Let me know. There's already people in my comments talking about this. Let me not add warfuel to the. But I genuinely think we all need to be careful at the moment with the whole decentering men movement. Right? And you guys know I'm here for it. Right? But with that whole conversation around decentering men, there are going to be some particularly female creators who are going to pander to that narrative. That valid frustration that a lot of women feel towards the relationship scene and the dating scene. Right now. And they're going to present themselves as the ultimate girl's girl. The ultimate I don't care about men. Who cares about men are ill. Men are not. Men are trash. Men are the. I'm a girl's girl. She get what I mean? I guarantee you there's just going to be a subset of them. But you need to be careful because they're going to capitalize off of that we hate men energy. I guarantee you behind the scenes, not only are they actively dating, their backs are being blown out, they are buying houses, having babies and marrying men. I guarantee you there are going to be people who capitalize on this moment to make some cash, capitalise on your frustration towards the dating scene. And then in about five years time, you're gonna realize that they weren't actually living their own wraps. Right. Because they were just here to make a quick buck. They weren't really about it. And the unfortunate thing is, by that time you would have made some serious decisions about your life. Very tangential, but almost mirrors it today. I was reading. I'm reading Start with yourself by Emily.

[Renee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Courtney]

And I'm in the part where she talks about, you know what? We need to cut the nonsense around telling women that they should wait to have. Oh, I think one of the cameras died. But we need to cut the nonsense around telling women that they should wait to have children.

[Renee]

Yeah.

[Courtney]

Because actually we're painting this false idea that once they get to the point where they now want to have children, they feel ready to have children in their late 30s early that it will just be easy. It won't. Similarly, there are going to be so many people telling you we don't care about men, we don't care about men. But in the background they're going to be dealing with some things, making certain decisions, decisions. But because of their content you're going to be making certain decisions and after a while you're going to resent them because they actually chased something. Even they were though they were presenting a different thing.

[Renee]

Dare I say we're seeing it now? Dare I say it now? Sorry that. Don't be a bird.

[Courtney]

Don't be deceived either. Don't be deceived. The days. I hope this whole like tradwife thing and it falling apart, I think, I hope it's teaching us to not make life decisions based on content we've seen on the Internet. Good content you see on the Internet can simply be a reference. That's it towards you. Coming to that it own conclusion and your own decisions and your own vision, but never replicate your life off of what people are saying on the Internet.

[Renee]

That's it. Even as you're listening to us now, please don't beg ever.

[Courtney]

Because if you do, you have to own it. You have to own it because that person can change their mind 100%. It doesn't mean it's going to fix your life. And also they don't owe you. I mean, yes, to some degree, we can say they owe you an apology, but their apology isn't going to fit. Fish fix your life. Oh.

[Renee]

And by that time, it's. It might even be too late for you, baby.

[Courtney]

Thank you.

[Renee]

Don't be. Listen, this is why it's so important. Critical thinking and being your own person is the most powerful thing that you can do in the attention economy.

[Mazda Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Renee]

Don't be following birds.

[Courtney]

Simple as they'll lead you to nowhere.

[Renee]

That's it.

[Courtney]

Well, sisters, we hope that you have enjoyed this conversation. It was a very interesting one. So good, honestly. We love you guys and dearly and we hope to see you in our next episode. Make sure you follow us on socials at to my sisterhood. Make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel and also if you can sign up to our mailing list over on our website to my sisters dot com.

[Renee]

That's it. That's it. Make sure you come and follow us individually as well. Come and see my fabulous bestie over at CD Botting. And you can come and follow me over at Renee.

[Courtney]

We love to see it. Well, until next time.

[Renee]

Keep glowing and growing.

[Mazda Advertiser]

You're more than just one thing. And your vehicle should have more too. More connectivity when you're the boss. Hey, Google, when's my next meeting? More space when you're the ringleader and we're good. And when you're the mom. Everyone in the allnew Mazda CX5 more to move every side of you. Learn more@mazda USA.com Google is a trademark of Google LLC. Sequences shortened and simulated.