Tom Nichols (3:20)

We did. We did. And with a lot of damage to our republic, to the world.

Charlie Sykes (3:27)

A lot.

Tom Nichols (3:27)

Of damage to our national heritage. But if you would ask me at this point in 2024 what I expected, I expected worse. So, you know, in that sense, I'm gonna say thank God for small favors and that things haven't been worse. But it was a complete, you know, it was a complete mess of a year. I mean, it was just a. You know, what's. I mean, it's a shit show. I'm so. I hate to start. Start off the. With a. Know, with an epithet, but we're not.

Charlie Sykes (4:03)

Going to make it through. We're not going to make it through without getting in the explicit ratings. We might as well get it out of the way right away. Let me just disagree with you, actually. I think it was worse than I expected. Not because Trump was worse than I expected. I mean, you and I were out there with our Trump derangement syndrome, warning how terrible it was going to be, what made it worse. And I think the only thing that was surprising was the capitulations, the. The obeying in advance, all of the guardrails, and including in civil society that we expected to stand up against him didn't. And I think it started before the inauguration. I mean, I remember the day that I picked up my phone and read that ABC had decided to pay Donald Trump off for this complete bullshit libel case. And I thought, what the hell is with that? And that was just sort of the beginning. The universities, the law firms, the oligarchs, Congress turning itself into a potted plant, the US Supreme Court greenlighting him. So it wasn't that Trump was worse than I thought, because I thought he would. I just thought that there would be more pushback, more resistance, more other people saying, we're not gonna go along. It just felt, at least at the beginning of the year, that the opposition was demoralized and felt that he was unstoppable. And I guess that was. Again, it's like, wait, what did you think it was going to happen? Are you really going to cave in? So at least in the first half of the year, that was worse than I expected.

Tom Nichols (5:29)

Look, nobody, you and I, you can't have two Scrooges and one Christmas Carol. So let me play devil's advocate for a minute, Charlie, and say yes, at the beginning, I agree with you that the collapse of one institution and civil society after another was really horrifying. And yet as time went on, it feels to me, and this is just an impressionistic view, it's just a personal view, that the, that the steam kind of ran out of the MAGA train and that institutions and people did start to, to push back, that, you know, the courts, some of the courts really have held the line. Congress, which has been craven. I mean, let's not say Congress, let's say the Republicans in Congress been craven. And yet part of the reason all the wheels are coming off and Trump has become even more sweaty and panicked and incoherent is that for once, Congress said, oh, no, we're going to release the Epstein files. We. You were. You're getting your discharge petition and you're going to have to do it. Which has led. Let it. I mean, ask yourself. It was on your bingo card a year ago to say, to have Trump referring to Marjorie Trader Greene, who is now leaving Congress, and Thomas Massie, this terrible person who's a low IQ guy who, you know, blah, blah, blah, who, you know, who is one of the most, I mean, I. Massey, who, you know, used to drive me crazy because he went to MIT and he had to know better about a lot of things he's saying has been standing up to Trump. Indiana legislators deciding, no, you can't call my constituents and, and, and spin them up to the point where they threaten to kill me. You know, that. Take that and take it out of town. You know, one thing after another where I think, yeah, there was a bunch of collapses early on. And then, you know, and I thought, this is how it ends. Right. Because one of the ways authoritarian regimes succeed is by presenting themselves as inevitable and permanent, unstoppable. And, you know, how's that case against Jack Smith going? How's that Letitia James case going? You know, I, I was, I was saying the other day, James Comey. Yeah, James Comey.

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Tom Nichols (7:58)

I mean, I was saying the other day, Americans are now learning the phrase no true Bill. And the reason they didn't know about it is because it was so rare for it to happen. You know, the thing that most people knew was a grand jury will indict a ham sandwich. Well, there's a lot of ha. Sandwiches walking around free right now.

Charlie Sykes (8:17)

This is good. You're making me feel better.

Tom Nichols (8:19)

And it's right. I mean, it almost feels. Maybe this is on my mind because I just got over a cold, but it feels like the American immune system is sort of rallying just a bit. Not. We're not out of it. We're not out of danger. These are still, you know, incredibly corrupt and avaricious would be authoritarians, but I really thought they were going to get a lot farther in a year than they did. And after Trump's last few press conferences, which I think, really, I do think he's unhinged about Epstein. But after his last few press conferences, I'm thinking, you know, this guy is not in control anymore. Or not as in control as he was.

Charlie Sykes (9:00)

Well. And, yeah, and he's certainly not in touch. He's lost, I think, some of his instincts. He used to have that reptilian instinct. And you could see that he goes out and speaks to the pros in Pennsylvania the other day and clearly is not connecting with them on affordability. The address to the nation was old man screaming, you know, at people. I think you had great line. He was basically, you know, saying to the American people, quiet, piggy. So, I mean, that was. That was a low point. And I'll throw in some other, you know, I think positive indications, you know, public opinion has turned against him. He thought that he had winded his back on immigration. He's losing. He's losing badly on immigration. The collapse of his support among Latino voters is truly, I mean, it feels dramatic. It is historic in terms of its scope and its speed. You know, and I wrote earlier this year, what is that you think was going to happen when basically you created this entire environment of fear and intimidation for any person that is black? If you're Hispanic and you leave the House, you better have your citizenship papers, because we live in a world in which mass ICE agents may demand your papers. And what a shock. This has had a tremendous negative blowback in public opinion. The Democrats actually got their act together and did extremely well in those midterm elections. You point out that there are cracks in the Republican coalition that we have not seen for years. I mean, Marjorie Taylor Greene, the discharge petitions, the multiple discharge petitions in every one of these shows. I've mentioned the fact that we now have an American Pope who is rather aggressively willing to challenge Donald Trump on this whole Christian identity. And it's not just rhetorically. I mean, he's putting in place bishops and archbishops and cardinals. Jimmy Kimmel is back on the air. All of these things are positive, but the reality is that we are also finding out how much power is vested in the president, even if he is unhinged and deranged and demented and thoroughly corrupt. We're seeing corruption on an industrial scale. No one's gonna do anything about it. The damage done to the Department of Justice, I think, will take generations. You have a reversal of American foreign policy that really dismantles much of the post World War II peace architecture. And I think that there are some things in the culture that have been broken so badly that they are going to be fixed. And he has three more years. So, I mean, part of it is, look, I do think that there was that sense that resistance was futile early in the year. I don't think that's the case right now. So I think the trajectory of the year has been positive. And I think that was the. You know, and I don't disagree with that.

Tom Nichols (11:47)

A Christmas Carol is on my mind. So, you know, a year ago, what we were asking, as Scrooge asks the Ghost of Christmas yet to come, are these things that must be, or merely the shadows of things that might be that can be changed? And I think, you know, at that, a year ago, we were saying, wow, this is just the way. I mean, these, you know, they're coming in gangbusters. Well, we didn't count on was how venal and incompetent and backbiting they are. But. And the danger, as you point out, you know, there's three years left. I mean, if more competent people come in, I mean, you know, if. If at some point Trump, you know, finally just has had enough of this particular clown car and decides to replace them, yeah, it could be bad. But I also think, Charlie, that. And I don't want to predict it, I suspect that you and I would agree that the Democrats are probably going to take the House. Fair.

Charlie Sykes (12:46)

Yes.

Tom Nichols (12:47)

I would argue that at that moment, Donald Trump's presidency is effectively over. So it's not really three years. It's more like a year. But. And your point about when you were talking about Latino voters, I was thinking about a graph, I think it was in the New York Times of Mikey Sherrill's vote in New Jersey and all these Hispanic areas, huge shift back to the Democrats. These are, you know, massive warning signs for the Republicans that, you know, when a year ago we were saying, oh, my God, you know, Trump's. Trump has a Latino vote. How is that even.

Charlie Sykes (13:21)

How.

Tom Nichols (13:21)

How is that even possible? And yet that all seems to be Just coming unglued quickly. So I don't want to be, you know, Pollyanna ish about it. But I think, and I think his hold on the party, you know, it used to be. Your point about Pennsylvania is really important. I mean, he goes to Pennsylvania. I mean, how many times does he has he ever really bombed at a rally in a Trump friendly area? I mean, I can't really think of. It's pretty rare. And it was so bad that apparently, at least from the reporting that I saw, that Susie Wiles said, you have to go on tv, you have to fix this. I mean, you have to like, you know, like, this was so such a disaster that they tell him to go on television and what does he do? He doubles down and makes it even worse. I mean, that was, that was about the worst 20 minutes. I mean, short of, I don't know, you know, the Nixon impeachment hearings or something, that was about the worst 18 minutes a President's had on television.

Charlie Sykes (14:23)

So, so we could sum up 2025 is, you know, he starts off, starts off the year with a roar as the master of the universe and he ends as the yelling incoherently at the clouds. So, I mean, that. That is true, Mike. My caution is that, and I do think that you're already feeling that lame duck, which I want, which I want to come back to. But when you say that his presidency is over, I also worry that for Donald Trump, you know, being a lame duck is just another word for nothing left to lose. And he is still incredibly dangerous. He still has the control over the military. He still has his own brute squads out there. We've seen how utterly reckless he is in terms of this, the corruption in the Mafia state.

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We're.

Charlie Sykes (15:03)

But it is interesting that you're already having these, these, these cracks form before the midterm. I would have predicted that at least for 2025, he's going to have kind of everyone's going to, you know, keep their, their powder dry until the midterms. The fact that at this TPUSA conference near the end of the year, you have, you know, ERICA Kirk endorsing J.D. vance. So the jockeying has already begun. I mean, I know that Donald Trump is still going to play with the idea of a third term, but the fact that you can see that the succession wars have already begun and you are seeing cracks that we hadn't seen before. The implosion of, I know this may seem inside baseball to some of you folks, but the implosion of the Heritage foundation with all of these guys quitting and going to work for this foundation run by Mike Pence, I mean, in just traditional conservative Kremlinology, that was pretty amazing. And it feels like you have one jailbreak after another, even before the end of Trump's first year in office, which is not insignificant.

Tom Nichols (16:08)

If people thought Trump's, what Trump was creating was going to be durable and lasting, they would not be running for the exits like this. And the Republicans who are stepping down in Congress and people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, I don't think they're doing it because they're worried about getting primaried or losing. They don't want to be part of the minority. Look, it's not fun in Congress. I mean, you know, if, if you know anything about Congress, being the minority is a slot, especially in the House. Senators, of course, always have huge amount reserves of power because the way the Senate is structured, but that, especially in the House, being in the minority sucks. You know, it's, you don't really have a lot of power. And, and there, and that, that tells me they're looking ahead and saying, I don't want to be in the minority and Donald Trump can't protect me. And I'm not going to get anything out of Donald Trump. He's not kind of not relevant. And I did find just one more thing. I'll say I found Erica Kirk's endorsement kind of shocking as well, as well as the other. The other day I heard a stray line coming across CNN from, of all people, Scott Jennings, who said, well, you know, in 2028, probably J.D. vance. And I thought, that guy's a very careful opportunist. If he didn't, if he really thought either Trump didn't like that kind of talk or there was, you know, that, you know, he just wouldn't have gone there. And I think you're right. I think begun, begun the succession wars have. And, and that tells, you know, when that happens, you know, this is like, they're vicious already.

Charlie Sykes (17:49)

Yeah.

Tom Nichols (17:50)

I mean, this is like people, you know, at the end of Brezhnev or Andropov's term saying, I have to start making arrangements. You know, the old man's not well. I have to start, you know, creating new alliances and setting up new partnerships. And I, that's, and to, to me, as somebody who does not want Trump to solidify his grip on the government. That's good. I mean, I think that's a good sign.

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Charlie Sykes (20:10)

Well, speaking of lasting legacies, the one thing that we, we definitely learned this year is that Donald Trump is intent on slapping his name on everything by the end of four years. I mean, so I want to get your take on. So I mean, look, I mean we know that, you know, he wants the Trump Ballroom. He's, you know, renamed the Kennedy center. And we closed out the week before Christmas learning that he's actually going to be launching a new class of battleships called, not a parody, not making this up. Trump class battleships. Now I have said in a rather snarky way, the word Trump class. Trump and class should not be in the same sentence. But here we have Captain Private Bone spurs naming a, not just naming an entire class of battleships, but this is part of Tom Are you ready for this? His Golden Fleet and that he is going to be intimately involved in designing these warships in his spare time because. Because what?

Tom Nichols (21:08)

He has a great aesthetic sense. He said he's a very, what he said was, I'm a very aesthetic person.

Charlie Sykes (21:15)

Lots of gold trim on these battleships coming in. It is like watching a 12 year old boy playing with his toys at this point. I mean, it doesn't mean that he's less dangerous, but he is. He just likes playing president doing this stuff. You got this kid and he's got the model set in his spare time. He's going to be designing battle. I am sure that the Chinese Navy is just shitting bricks. Oh my God, here comes the golden fleet. What are we gonna do?

Tom Nichols (21:47)

Yeah, and it's not gonna happen. I mean it's, you know, Trump says, well, I wrote a piece yesterday in the Atlantic and I pointed out that Trump says, well, the first ship's gonna arrive in two and a half years. The first ship of any new class does not arrive in two and a half years. I said they can make it happen by gussying up an Arleigh Burke destroyer and slapping gold paint on it and putting USS Trump on the side. But it, I, you're right, it's not just like watching a 12 year old play with toys. It's watching a bunch of adults placate a 12 year old by giving him toys to play with. You know, they had pictures up of, you know, the USS Defiant, which I swear to God there's a hidden Star Trek nerd. Hiding is Defiant is a storage ship in the Star Trek universe but you know, shooting its missiles and it's going to be a hundred times more powerful than any ship, you know, and I mean, it's crazy and it's exactly what we don't need for the Navy. The Navy needs to, it needs more people, a different op tempo so that its people can rest. They're exhausted. I knew that I, I heard this many times when I was teaching at the Naval War College of, you know, that the tempo is wearing people out. They're exhausted. They don't want to be, you know, on these constant rotations through, through, you know, at sea. And, and they, they, I mean, it's really a problem. And the last thing anybody needs is a bunch of exhausted, you know, people trying to crew these gigantic ships that no one knows what they're for. And by the way, the, the, the big news was that John Phelan, the Secretary of the Navy, who has never been in the Navy and has no connection to the Navy and knows nothing about military stuff, said we're going to put nuclear weapons back on the surface ships, which is an absolutely bonkers idea. We haven't had them there since those noted pinkos, George H.W. bush and Dick Cheney took them off of those ships and. But, you know, of course, of course they're going to be powerful, so they have to have new. The nuclear on them. The whole thing is just bonkers. But I, in a way, again, there's a part of me that says this is actually encouraging because, you know, I thought that the project would be a much more deliberate and careful building of an authoritarian regime step by step, and instead they're handing him pictures that look like, you know, those old Ravel models that you and I, you know, used to lust after in the stores. Right. With the ships at war and build these battleships and stuff. And, you know, if they're keeping him busy with all that shiny stuff, it does make me wonder who's running the country. But I also think it, it tells you that the wheels are kind of coming off well.

Charlie Sykes (24:41)

Okay, so let's, let's go back through the year, though. The, the pivotal moments, the iconic moments, and I'll. I'll offer one. And let's just kind of go back and forth, like just the, the moments that I'm going to remember from, you know, from 2025. And I have to say that one of the moment. I mean, look, I mean, there's, there's so many. I mean, you're tearing down the East Wing and, you know, the, the, the AI image of, of himself as a fighter jet, you know, dumping shit on, on protesters and all that. But I, I keep coming back to that moment, and I know that you had the same reaction. Was it in February when in the, in the Oval Office when he and J.D. vance beat the shit out of Volodymyr Zelenskyy?

Tom Nichols (25:23)

Yes.

Charlie Sykes (25:23)

And you really had the sense that, oh, my God, America is switching sides. We in Ukraine, we are going to embrace Russia. You pair that, his treatment of Zelensky in that really awful meeting with the iconic image of Donald Trump rolling out the red carpet for war criminal Vladimir Putin up in Alaska and hugging him. And I can't shake the sense that there was real and maybe permanent damage in terms of America just deciding that it wants to be on the other side of this global conflict that we had, that we had been the leader of. I mean, we've been, you know, a shining city on a hill since World War II. So what do you, what do you make of those? Because those are images that kind of stick with me from 2025.

Tom Nichols (26:12)

Well, you know, I, I've been trying, I've tried to be Optimistic here, but the one place I agree with you, the damage. I actually think we can repair the damage of the Justice Department a lot faster than we can repair the damage to what's happened overseas. Because in the first Trump term, and I know that there were Americans, some, you know, ambassadors, diplomats, think tankers, a lot of people, in kind of formal and informal discussions with our friends and allies overseas, and in the first Trump term, they said, look, this is a fluke, doesn't really represent the will of the American people. You know, just get through it and remember that, you know, people like Jim Mattis and Rex Tillerson and others, you know, they're not. They're not stupid people. They understand. And when all this is over, the adults will be back in charge and just, you know, hang in there. We're just going through a bad patch the second time around. We can't make that argument anymore. We have to admit that there is a significant portion of the American electorate that is willing to do completely bonkers, batshit things when it comes to foreign policy, because Americans, first of all Americans traditionally don't understand foreign policy. They don't care about it. But at least we had the thing we used to call the Cold War consensus that Soviet Union's bad, America's good. You know, Britain is our friend, Europe is where most of our families are from. I think this is something in this whole argument about, you know, where people are from in the United States that's broken out among the Republicans recently is that, you know, how many Americans throughout the Cold War were primarily derived from European heritage? And that meant a lot. You couldn't. That you didn't want to think about Soviet tanks rolling over your grandmother's great grandmother's village. That's all gone. And we can't now turn to our. Our friends and allies and say, yeah, you know, we did it again. Ian Fleming had a great line in Goldfinger. He said, once is happenstance. Because, of course, keeps running into Bond, right? And he says they have a saying in Chicago, Mr. Bond, once is happenstance. Twice as coincidence, three times its enemy action and, you know, work perilously close to three times. And I think you're right. I think the February meeting, it made me. I physically felt uncomfortable watching it, you know, which I don't. Look, you know, people. People always think that guys like you and me, we get our hair on fire about everything. But, you know, we. We've been watching politics a long time. We don't react. But watching the president and. And that, you know, the Vice President this, you know, nobody berating this man who's fighting for his, literally trying not to get killed every day was nauseating. And it did. I think we did. I think you say America chose sides, Charlie. I would say that Donald Trump and the Republican Party, enough of the current what now passes for the Republican Party, switched sides and turned America, because the president is the vicar of foreign policy in this country, has made us into a de facto Russian ally. And if you want to book in that in 2025 with another kind of nauseating thing to realize, the story is about Steve Witkoff saying, I don't need any briefings from the CIA.

Charlie Sykes (29:49)

Oh, my God.

Tom Nichols (29:50)

You know, that Putin said, I want that guy, not all these other people. And the administration said, this is your guy. Fine. And CIA says, listen, @ least let us, you know, we have people who know about this stuff. We have experts. Let us at least talk to you and give you a briefing. Nope, don't need any briefings. And goes off to Russia and comes back, you know, sounding like the Manchurian Candidate. Oh, Russia wants peace and they're committed and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's, I, I, this is a deep cut, Charlie, but it's the old Saturday Night Live commercial about the hypnotist show where everybody walks out and says, much better than Cats. I would see it again and again. You know, it's like my cough comes back from Moscow. It was much better than Cats. I would see it again and again. And it's, that's disturbing and it's, and it's sickening because it's not only amateurish, it's.

Charlie Sykes (30:45)

Dangerous. You know, and the Witkoff appointment and, you know, watching Jared Kushner and Witkoff play it being, you know, diplomats, the, which again, plays into the grift and the self dealing and the corruption in the Mafia state, which again, nobody's gonna do anything about it. They are going to get away with it, unfortunately. But you go back to the very beginning of Trump's presidency and I think that again, part of the shock and awe was that he surrounded himself with these second, third rate, fourth rate, fifth rate chodes, these sycophants, these people who had would have been jokes if you and I would have said, you know what, you elect Donald Trump and he's going to try to make Matt Gaetz your Attorney General or Tulsi Gabbard your Director of National Intelligence, Cash Patel as your FBI director. I mean, you would have thought people were crazy. And yet, you know, he really did very consciously say, I'm not gonna make the same mistake that I made in Trump 1.0 of having substantial people who have substantial accomplishments. I'm gonna surround myself with. With people who will never tell me no, who will do anything I want, no matter how extreme. And that really was his presidency, at least for the first six, nine months, where, you know, and it took a while for the rank, you know, incompetence of this group, perhaps to catch up with him. But he has created this universe, right, where he's putting out people who are doing jobs that no rational person would ask them to do. I mean, the notion that RFK Jr. Is the most powerful person in American science today is so obscene. It was. I mean, we're talking about, is it worse or better than we thought? If I would have given you a list of the cabinet members a year ago, my guess is you would have said, it's.

Tom Nichols (32:36)

Gonna. Just let me point out how many people really objected to our.

Charlie Sykes (32:40)

Cover. I know that broke my heart, but it's not.

Tom Nichols (32:44)

Wrong. I mean, you know, it was a disturbing cover. I. I mean, my personal thing was not rfk. I remember when I was writing and when he was starting to pick people, I said, well, it's going to be terrible, but, like, what's he going to do? Make Pete Hegseth the Secretary of.

Charlie Sykes (32:57)

Defense?

Tom Nichols (32:57)

Yes. As though no rational person could possibly imagine this. Right. I mean, yeah, he'll put some clown in at, you know, State or Justice, but Defense, and, you know, it's. He's not going to do that. Somebody will stop him. There are people around him just going to say no to that. And yet here we.

Charlie Sykes (33:16)

Are. And the Senate confirmed.

Tom Nichols (33:18)

Them. And the Senate confirmed them. And.

Charlie Sykes (33:19)

That'S. I remember even in December, there was that sense that, okay, they have a chance. Take a deep breath. There's no way the Senate's gonna confirm Tulsi Gabbard and RFK and Pete Hegseth. I mean, look at this. And once again, and look, you and I have been doing this now for a decade, full 10 years. And so the capitulation and the caving of Republicans in Congress should not surprise any of us. And yet it felt like, are you kidding.

Tom Nichols (33:45)

Me? I couldn't believe.

Charlie Sykes (33:46)

It. You senators, you look them, and you are putting Pete Hegseth in charge of the Pentagon. You did. This is a vote that you are willing to take. And that felt like it just set the tone for much of what happened in.

Tom Nichols (34:01)

2025. And that's why my mood was so dark along with yours at the beginning of the year. But I think it happened because, well, first of all, so much cowardice. I mean, at one, I think it was Tillis who said, well, I'm getting. People are calling my office and threatening me. What am I going to do? Well, then. Well, then resign, which he did, you know, eventually. But then if, you know, cast your vote and then go home. But of course, the problem is that nobody wants to live. These red state legislators, the thing they fear most is having to live among their.

Charlie Sykes (34:37)

Own. Yeah. Voters, by the.

Tom Nichols (34:39)

Way. Yeah, you read my mind. I was just going there, Charlie. Like, you know, one. One positive note at the end of this. And as somebody pointed out the other day, I think it was at the New York Times, somebody what a, you know, what a cold kind of shank at the last moment said, well, she's only 41. She can restart her career in politics at some point. It's like, yeah, I don't think that's.

Charlie Sykes (35:05)

Really. Life is ahead of you.

Tom Nichols (35:06)

Young. Yeah, you know, it's like, you're only 41, didn't become an ambassador, won't go back and run, doesn't want to be part of the minority, doesn't want to live among, you know, the people that she claims to represent. You know, that if there was ever a karmic ending to a political career, that that was.

Charlie Sykes (35:24)

It. This was maga.

Tom Nichols (35:27)

Karma. Oh, it was. It was huge. But I think the other problem is that a significant number of people in the United States have you. And I've talked about this before. They've become accustomed to the idea that they can put any clown in any job and things will still just.

Charlie Sykes (35:44)

Work.

Tom Nichols (35:45)

Right. You know, that. That, like, what's the worst that could happen? Well, because there are competent people throughout the bureaucracy, throughout the lower layers of government, who keep the lights on and keep the paper moving and keep the checks going out and, you know, making sure that airplanes have fuel and all of those things people say. So. All right, so let. So, you know, so let's have fun. Let's see what happens if you put, you know, a Fox commentator, you know, as Secretary of.

Charlie Sykes (36:17)

Defense.

Tom Nichols (36:18)

Podcasters. Yeah, podcasters. I mean, it's insane, but it also shows you how irresponsible a number of American voters have become and how much they actually rely on what they would call the deep state to keep things running, or as I would call them, loyal Americans doing their job in the civil service that now Trump is trying to.

Charlie Sykes (36:43)

Fire. Yeah. I mean, there are certain things that I think the average American does understand, like, you do want air traffic controllers, you do want people who are competent handling nukes. You would have hoped that they would have said you want to have competent doctors and scientists. But apparently that was not the case. Case. But there was that deep unseriousness, you know, going on here. I think that also, I mean, in terms of turning points of the year. And again, you know, sometimes the turning points turn out not to be turning points. You know, I, in some of these other shows, I've tried to identify things that, you know, what breaks through and what doesn't break through. I guess I'm somewhat surprised because as you know, there's so much that Trump does that just doesn't move the needle that nobody cares about, you know, you know, he can blow up boats. And apparently a lot of the MAGA people think that's so cool. It's like a video game for them. The tearing down of the East Wing. There's a case to be made that that was when his numbers started sliding a little bit. Did you see it that way, first of all? And if you do, why do you think that was the case? What breaks.

Tom Nichols (37:52)

Through? I don't know if it's an inflection point, I don't know if it's an inflection point, but it did break through. And I think in part not only because messing with the White House is iconic and because plan he has is so freaking ugly, you know, I mean, I think that there's a significant number of Americans who are going to vote for anybody who says, I'm going to tear this monstrosity down, I'm going to restore the East Wing, I'm going to chisel his name off, you know, the, the Kennedy Center. We're gonna, we're gonna have something like a normal country again. But I think the other reason it broke through with at least some people is the same. For the same reason all of his other weirdness is breaking through. You said you ran on inflation and jobs and quality of life and this is what you're spending your time doing. You've seen these focus groups.

Charlie Sykes (38:44)

And.

Tom Nichols (38:46)

Reports from the red states and people saying he's spending an awful lot of time trying to get revenge on his enemies and mess with the White House. What about me? You know, I thought this was about me. And of course there's a mean spirited part of me that says, I'm sorry that, you know, you're losing your job at Tyson or Jim Beam or whatever, but this was never about you. It's always about him. And now, you know, hopefully you're seeing that, you know, and I think it's terrible. There are going to be people suffering through the Christmas season because of Donald Trump and his, you know, whacked out economic theories that people really didn't understand were going to hurt them. But then they're wondering like, well, if this is such, why isn't he paying attention to this? Why is he doing all this other weird stuff? For me, the inflection point, Charlie, the moment where I think, not because it was such a big thing in and of itself in terms of what it's produced, but because Trump's reaction to it was the discharge petition on.

Charlie Sykes (39:47)

Epstein. Yeah, that was kind of a break the glass moment, wasn't.

Tom Nichols (39:49)

It? And he's ever, for the two weeks before when people were basically coming to him and saying, you're going to lose this thing, it's going to happen. And you could already see him starting to unravel the panic, the quiet piggy finger pointing, the freaking out, the grievance, the anger. He is so terrified of whatever's in there, which is kind of unusual because you'd think he would be beyond shame at this point. But I, I think that for me was the inflection.

Charlie Sykes (40:21)

Point. Well, and again, you're right, you're right. And it's, there's some, the part of it is a mystery to me because again, considering all the things that he has survived in the past, including, you know, being found sexually, you know, liable for, you know, the sexual assault of E. Jean Carroll, all the stories about, you know, Miss Teen and all of those things that, that, that he did that there's, you know, part of me that just expect Donald to him say, yeah, you know, I like young women. I, you know, I've gone on the record saying that whatever else I do, I just want to have a nice piece of ass on my arm, which is almost a direct quote from.

Tom Nichols (40:53)

Him. He survived the Access Hollywood.

Charlie Sykes (40:57)

Tape. That's what I mean. But he's certainly acting as if there is something there. And that really does feel like it was one of the real shifts. And when you lose people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, and this is part of the thing which makes it so unexpected, well, and again, unpredictable, is that as he declines into lame duckism, as there is blood in the water, what kinds of fissures might you have? Especially because the movement obviously is not bound together by any shared principle, any shared value system. It is bonded together in this cult of personality. You take the cult of personality out and you have a little bit of what you saw at that TPUSA conference. And, and I think that, again, people may be tempted to say, also a seminal moment. Yes, they may have thought it was performative, but you have major figures there attacking one another on substantive issues, not just personal. And it is a power struggle, which is true. It's the post Trump power struggle between people like Ben Shapiro and Steve Bannon. But there's real substance. And then you have J.D. vance coming out, and he did take sides. He basically sided with the people who said, yes, we should make room for these, you know, vicious anti Semites. We shouldn't. You know, we, you know, this sort of, you know, cultural relativism that you would not.

Tom Nichols (42:21)

Have. Let's not get all judgy about.

Charlie Sykes (42:23)

Nazis. Well, J.D. vance does not want to be outflanked on the right, and he won't be. But it is a weirdness about all this. I actually heard somebody was saying that JD Vance is the prohibitive favor to be the nominee. I don't, I. And anyone who thinks they know what's gonna happen is wrong. Especially because the key variable there is Donald Trump has to be the gracious person who passes the baton. Is there anything in his life that makes you think that he's gonna go, yes, I will decline while you increase. I am going off into the sunset, and I am graciously going to make way for you to replace me. He's going to be the worst lame duck president in the history of ever. And I think that's going to.

Tom Nichols (43:09)

Be a problem for JD Also, aside from not being gracious enough to say, here is the baton, my.

Charlie Sykes (43:14)

Son.

Tom Nichols (43:14)

Yeah. Other Republican contenders are going to come to him and say, favor me, Father Donald. And he's going to love that. He loves setting people against each other. I mean, you know, I mean, you can just see a moment in the Oval Office. I don't know, J.D. you know, what have you done? You know, I haven't. You haven't given me a gold, gold bar lately. You know, how's that working out for you? He will enjoy watching all these people fight and struggle because then that puts him at the top of that. That heap again. And, And I think that, you know, that's. Anybody counting on that. The other problem, of course, is that J.D. vance, obviously, you know, he's the vice president, but as other vice presidents can tell you, they are not always the ones that get the nod. You know, Joe Biden could tell you some stories about getting pushed out of the way, and especially because, let's face it, people don't like J.D. vance. I mean he just doesn't, he doesn't resonate with people. I mean his, all of his national prominence he was going to get and I always, you know, think it's important to point this out. You and I know this. He was going to get beaten by a complete wackadoodle in Ohio until Trump rescued him. He was going to lose to a guy named Josh Mandel who you know is was running a completely nutty campaign and he was going to lose to that guy. And Trump said, no, no, this is the guy I want elevates him, then plucks him out of the Senate. J.D. vance at this as a political creature is entirely a creation of Donald Trump and not in any organic. He has no organic connection to anybody in the party or in the.

Charlie Sykes (44:55)

Country, which means that Trump will not respect.

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Charlie Sykes (45:04)

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Tom Nichols (45:12)

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Tom Nichols (45:19)

Plan. Wait, no.

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Charlie Sykes (46:52)

Plan. This was the year of, you know, brutality and cruelty and extremism and slashing of foreign aid, you know, was the year of desecration of, you know, iconic buildings. But it was also a year of sycophancy. And you want to talk about physical reactions to things, watching the richest Americans, the most powerful people in the world, come into the presence bearing gifts. You know, when Tim Cook brought him the golden apple, when the Qataris figured out, how do we buy influence with him, we give him a winged bribe and all of this. Donald Trump is not an incredibly complex character. And so between now and 2028, is he gonna fall in love with somebody who comes in and says, donald, you are the greatest. Let me give you this. I'm going to shower you with praise and wealth and, you know, maybe think of doing something out of the box or something, someone who would otherwise be implausible, that Donald Trump can say, I made you. You are in my image. Any of those things can happen because he has such a fragile ego and is so easily bought off. So this is something just to keep in mind. And by the way, in 2025, those scenes were among the most nauseating in the world. One of the things that surprised me, I will admit, was I thought that if you were a billionaire, that you had fuck you money, that you would be able to say, fuck you. Donald Trump, though, proved that if you were a billionaire, you had too much to lose to say fuck you. And I think that was one of the things. Just watching one corporation after another behave in that particular way, the cravenness of it. I just kind of remember the moments where your stomach sort of falls. These giant law firms, these lawyers who are making what they're making $10 million a year, and they're afraid that, hey, if we don't cut a deal with Donald Trump, I might only make $6 million a year. I might, you know, not have the 150 foot yacht. I might just have a 75 foot yacht, and therefore, I need to go in there and kiss toes and whatever else there were. So this, the year of sycophancy, I think, was one of the hardest things to.

Tom Nichols (49:07)

Take. Let me agree with you and then point out something positive.

Charlie Sykes (49:10)

Okay?

Tom Nichols (49:11)

Please. You know, I agree. Like you and I have talked about this before. I never understood Jeff Bezos. I have more money than you, and I own a newspaper. You had better be more afraid of me than I am of you. You know, I mean, I am a. I'm a gazillionaire with a national newspaper. Don't screw with.

Charlie Sykes (49:32)

Me.

Tom Nichols (49:33)

Yeah. And yet that just went away, which I found kind of shocking. The, the sycophancy is also the foreigners who have come offering gifts to Trump. You know, Americans don't realize what an insult that is. It's an insult. It says, we know that you're so shallow and craven that we can hand you a gold bar and get what we want out of you because you're not the president. You're not a real president. You're just a. You're just a huckster in this office. And, you know, here's an airplane, here's a gold brick. It's embarrassing on a, on just such a. And so corrosive on just such a deep level. However, have you heard from Elon Musk.

Charlie Sykes (50:18)

Lately? Isn't that something? Well, he's a trillionaire.

Tom Nichols (50:21)

Run. Run out of town with Susie Wiles, you know, talking, I mean, again, talk about inflection points and how to end the year. That Susie Wiles reaming out everybody in the White House was not on that bingo card either, Charlie. But you know, Musk, I mean, remember those chaotic months of Doge and I mean, he did a lot of damage. He broke a lot of China.

Charlie Sykes (50:49)

Living in the White House.

Tom Nichols (50:50)

Basically. Yeah. And a lot of people in the, in the less developed world are dead because of decisions that were made with USAID and pepfar. That's just to our eternal shame. That and especially to the Republicans in Congress, that. I mean, when George Bush, who has stayed out of everything, which I don't respect, but it's his choice, and I understand his notion of the presidency requires that when George Bush finally picks up a phone and says, hey, don't do this, and they do it anyway. That tells you how bad things have gotten. And yet, and yet Elon Musk has been run out of Washington on a rail with people speaking nothing but ill of him. And, you know, Doge. Did you think Doge would get shuttered six months early? What happened? All these kids with laptops that were supposed to become the new, you know, the new Red Guard, you know, of the, of the, of the new order. They're gone. And that again. So let's find the positive stuff where we.

Charlie Sykes (51:55)

Can. Okay, well, and you know what? Here, here's a turning point that I think is in danger of being forgotten. Speaking of Elon Musk, because I remember, you know, watching it very, very closely and feeling how everything changed after what happened here in Wisconsin. So you remember when Elon Musk was at the height of his Power. He decided he was gonna parachute into Wisconsin to really flex his power as the kingmaker. And he spent, I think, around $25 million on a Wisconsin state Supreme Court race. This is a local race for one seat on the state Supreme Court would determine whether liberals or conservatives controlled it. But Elon Musk made this kind of a test case about, you know, about his clout. So he dumps the massive amount of money into Wisconsin. And keep in mind, it's Wisconsin, it's not Florida, we're not California or New York. And then he comes here and remember those scenes he puts on the cheese head and he has the big rallies and he's handing out million dollar checks to voters and everything. I mean, he went all in. If he would have won, he would have been one of the titans of Republican politics who could have threatened congressmen and senators all around the country with primaries. He lost. He not only lost, lost big, he lost by big. And it was at that moment, from that moment on, you could sort of see it, that Donald Trump decided that this guy may be a liability, that he might actually not be my best friend. And his decline can really be traced from there. If it had gone the other way, he'd be swinging his big dick all over American politics even now. Probably now they would have broken.

Tom Nichols (53:36)

Over something else at Christmas. I don't want that image in my head. But okay, you know, if he had won, it would have also proved that Americans, heartland Americans are so venal and so shallow that you could just buy their vote. And I really was glad to see it because, you know, I. When people say money just controls elections, hey, Hillary Clinton outspent Donald Trump 2 to 1. Money cannot overcome people getting off their asses and going and voting. And what Musk didn't realize is that people don't want somebody, especially in places like Wisconsin. And I'll say again, Indiana, they don't want people coming in and saying, listen, rubes, you know, here's. Here's a thousand dollars. In my instructions, people really reacted to that. And it was, again, kind of an assertion of the American immune system. No, you know, Elon Musk, you can't just come to Wisconsin and tell people what to do. No, Donald Trump, you cannot just call people up in Indiana and say, exercise my will. You know, this is a country. America, despite you know, its urban character, is a country of small towns and small cities strung out across this great land of ours. And people don't like being America. You know, I think, think Trump and Musk didn't realize that something that they campaigned on bit them in the ass, which is that Americans really believe that their credo is, you're not the boss of me. You can't tell me what to do. Well, that works both ways. Elon Musk can't just show up and say, you know, this is what, okay, here, I'm going to wear a cheese slice on my head. Okay, now do what I tell you. That doesn't.

Charlie Sykes (55:23)

Work. Well, he became the issue. And, you know, one of the things that. That I think happened was having been completely demoralized, we had this massive turnout of Democratic voters, which then you saw replicated in Virginia and in Pennsylvania.

Tom Nichols (55:37)

And in New Jersey, where Mikey Sherrill was supposed to be winning by, like, a razor thin margin and trounces the guy in double.

Charlie Sykes (55:45)

Digits. Yeah. I mean, and again, we talked about this before the Latino vote, you know, how it has switched and how dramatic it has been. But also, Donald Trump has managed in one year to squander some of his vibe among youth voters. You know, you think about the things that were so shocking about in 2025. You know, the young men, you know, young voters decided that they kind of thought that he was cool. Latino voters were drifting toward the Republican Party. He has slammed the brakes on that in a really dramatic way in a very short period of time. And also. So one of the things that happened this year that I was hopeful for and I kind of predicted it, I don't know whether I predicted it or whether I was just hoping for it, was that one of the decisive things of the year were going to be these viral videos. And again, how our politics has changed. Everybody's a cameraman, everybody has a phone, everybody has pictures and all of that as they ramped up these brutal ICE raids, you know, that young people and Latinos saw that on a daily basis, and that this offended this fundamental sense of decency and fairness. So that Donald Trump, who lived by social media also, I think, was done in by that technology as well. And you can see this. You listen to then I hate the phrase the Manosphere podcast. A lot of those guys are going, hey, this is ugly. This is terrible. I'm not going to defend this sort of thing. And that erosion of support is really going to be one of the great political legacies of.

Tom Nichols (57:24)

2025. You know, once again, you read my mind, because I was about to say, you know, live by viral moments and, you know, politically die by viral moments. But also, I have another theory, too, about his declining support in the general manosphere. And among young, young men, one of the things they love about him was that, you know, he was tough. Right. He's just a tough guy. Daddy, Daddy's home. You know, the kind of guy that, you know, you know, had no problem with. Oh, you got questions. Well, here's my answer. Go yourself. You know what Trump has become. And again, I'm going to tie it to the Epstein files. By the way, before you and I came, came on to do this today, that, that note between Epstein and Nasser, I mean, you know, young men, live your life so that Jeffrey Epstein and Larry Nassar are not laughing about what a terrible person you are. Like, God, you know, that's the kind of thing I think that he's been really, you know, worried about, about coming out. But the other thing that happened, I think that affected these men. Donald Trump is not tough. He has turned into what you and I and others always knew. He was a whiny little boy, a grievance filled, you know, whiner who's constantly bitching and moaning and complaining. And, you know, that is not tough. That is not a, you know, not a. I mean, he went, he went from that, that moment in Butler. Right. With the fist in the air and the blood on his face and, you know, defiantly.

Charlie Sykes (59:13)

Fighting.

Tom Nichols (59:13)

Yeah. To, you know, this, this creepy old guy on TV just before Christmas, bitching and moaning and complaining about it's not my fault and Joe Biden didn't, Everything's fine. And if you don't really get how great it is, you don't understand how many great things I did because I'm so great, you know, and that, that, I mean, I mean, you and I have been repulsed by that for years, but I think it's kind of breaking through to a lot of people and say, this guy isn't tough. He's a little kid. He's a, he's a scared little boy. You and I knew it. The Russians know it, the Chinese know it, but maybe now some people out in America finally know.

Charlie Sykes (59:55)

It. So that drop you were referring to, that love, this headline, our, our president also shares our love of young nubile girls. Oh, my God. And again, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, corresponding with Larry Nassar. I mean, it's just like, how do these people, it's like there's these magnets of.

Tom Nichols (60:15)

Creepiness. Do they all know each.

Charlie Sykes (60:16)

Other?

Tom Nichols (60:16)

Yeah. What is with.

Charlie Sykes (60:18)

That? How does that happen? That they're, yes, our president? And you know what? The reality is that we know who Donald Trump is. We know that he's this Horndog. And by the way, you should.

Tom Nichols (60:29)

Read the rest of that note, by the.

Charlie Sykes (60:31)

Way. Right, yeah, definitely read it. But also go back to read that New York Times deep dive into their relationship because the number of allegations there. Look, this is known about Donald Trump. Why he's afraid of it now, I am not sure. Maybe he's afraid of Melania. Maybe he's afraid. I don't know who he is. Because we know that his voters are going to be able to absorb almost anything. But you're right, right. The Epstein files was probably one of the most unexpected things. The way it, it turned around and just bit him in the.

Tom Nichols (61:04)

Ass. Two things about that. One is, remember that he ran on it. I was talking to a Trump voter back in my hometown. I was back home visiting and he was, you know, I said, you can't be happy. He said, why won't you guys? What do you care about the Epstein? I said, I don't care about it. He did, he ran on it. And I, and it was very telling, my friend. He instead of, you know, ah, you know, I mean, this is an old friend. This is a guy I've known since we were children, right? And he just went, yeah, I don't know why he did that. And I, and I thought, oh. And I didn't. I just said, let it, let that moment kind of sink in. I think because he has come to realize that his voters don't really care about anything, but they care about this. They had put their, their, the image of themselves as crusaders against child sex abuse at the center of their political.

Charlie Sykes (62:02)

Identity. Yes, they.

Tom Nichols (62:04)

Did. And, and Trump has now clearly made fools of them by being part of this whole business, right. Of the Epstein files and all of that. The other thing that I was going to bring, you mentioned, Melania. Talk about, you know, lowlights of the end of the year. The ad for the Melania movie, when I first saw it, I thought it was AI slop created by some resistance, you know, like Blue Maga resistance fighting, you know, guy on the Internet. I saw this and I said, you know, this is kind of ugly. I mean, you know, it's kind of creepy and you really shouldn't do this. And then like, somebody had to tell me, no, this is a real thing. This is a real trailer for a real movie. And again, I don't think this is going to work out the way they think it's going to work out. I think that as you said earlier, Charlie, he has this, he has, he had this kind of lizard brain instinct for what Works and what doesn't? You know, Trump's not an intelligent person, he's not a decent person, but he had a cunning about him. And it feels like this is just one more thing. The Epstein files, the Milani movie, all this other stuff, that they have just lost their instincts and it's like that, that, you know, they just don't get it, that this is part of how all of this cracks up and the wheels come.

Charlie Sykes (63:26)

Off. I need, I need to go see that. But you know, keep in mind that also you do Melania movie. Well, well, but the Melania movie also is. That's a Jeff.

Tom Nichols (63:35)

Bezos. I bet it's worse than.

Charlie Sykes (63:36)

Pluribus. Oh, Plurif is a masterpiece. I'm sorry, we're going to disagree about.

Tom Nichols (63:42)

This. I had to, I had to go. Go there.

Charlie Sykes (63:45)

Charlie. I know. Well, because we have a rare disagreement. But, but didn't Bezos pay her. Bezos pay her $40 million for the rights for that movie? So that movie's not about the movie. That movie's about the payoff and it's about the. Just the sycophancy of. But actually, you know what I'm going to be doing tonight? I actually am going to be watching the season. Season finale of Pluribus because it is just, it is fantastic. So what was the best movie of the year for you? You looking back on.

Tom Nichols (64:13)

2025? Well, actually the best TV experience I've had lately. I just finished watching Death by Lightning, which was.

Charlie Sykes (64:20)

Amazing. I've been hearing so much about.

Tom Nichols (64:22)

That. It is, it's just stunning, Charlie. I mean it.

Charlie Sykes (64:26)

Really. You have seen President Garfield, the election of.

Tom Nichols (64:29)

1880. Yeah, when you talk about my movie choice for the year, look, I'm, I'm biased because I saw the movie being made. I, I met with the director and the writer. For me, the, the most important and, and kind of thrilling movie of the year was A House of Dynamite because I think that's that, you know, it's not only a competitive. It's a great kind of Catherine Bigelow national security TikTok kind of thriller, but it's also something people really should be thinking about. I think of it as, for me, it was fail safe for the 21st century, but I'm also gonna, you know, you know that my tastes are mostly middlebrow kitsch. And I have to tell you, I had a really good time going to see the new Superman movie. It.

Charlie Sykes (65:14)

Fun. What a great.

Tom Nichols (65:14)

Movie. It was fun. You know, we just needed, we needed something to be fun instead of Dark. And you know, all due respect to people like Christopher Nolan, you know, I, I just got tired of dark, moody movies. I, this was a two hour plus comic book with an engaging and fun lead. I knew. I, I'm proud to say, by the way, that I, when I saw David Corn sweat in an HBO series a few years earlier, I turned to my wife, I said, that guy could be the next Superman in. He's got the look, he's got the right kind of, you know, Christopher Reeve sort of, you know, mid, Mid America kind of guilelessness about him. And sure enough, they cast him. So I won't say Superman was the best movie of the year. I'm just saying I had a really good time watching it. And let me give one shout out to the late Rob Reiner because I, the last movie I saw, the most recent movie I saw was Spinal Tap 2. And it, it was charming and funny. If you've seen the original Spinal Tap, this was kind of a love letter to the original from a bunch of guys who are well aware that it's 40 years later and that they're all old with some hilarious cameos by Elton John and Paul McCartney and Garth Bro. You know, just, it just is an amazingly funny movie. And I'm, and I'm very sad, you know, that, that such a great talent is gone from.

Charlie Sykes (66:38)

Us. I should have done more prep if I was gonna ask this question. But I think my favorite movie, and it's not gonna be for everybody, was the Life of Chuck. I really like that. I think this is, we continue to live in this golden age of television and there are so many series out there. And so I think enjoy that while we can. Until our corporate overlords control absolutely every streaming network. As long as we have a thousand flowers that bloom, I think we're going to be okay. Tom Nichols, thank you so much for today and thank you for 2025. Thank you for being with us throughout this year and helping us to remind people that we, despite everything that's happening, are not the crazy.

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