← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Adam Kinzinger: Epstein, Enemies Lists, and the Collapse of Courage
00:43:36
Loading summary
Transcript80 lines
- [00:00]
Lisa
I finally committed to getting back in shape. Hit the gym, ate clean, did everything right. But after two days, I felt drained. My body just couldn't keep up. That's when I found Stem Regen. It supports the release of my own stem cells to repair, recover, and actually rebuild from the inside out. Now I'm not just working out, I'm bouncing back. I feel stronger, more energized, and more like myself every single day. Stem Regen didn't just change my routine, it changed my recovery. Empower your body to recover from within. Whether you are focused on recovery longev or just overall wellness, Stem Regen helps your body feel the best. It can release the best version of you. Try Stem Regen today at Stemregen co. Use code POD25 for 25% off your first order. Again, that's StemRegen code POD25. Hello, listeners. Meet Lisa.
- [00:51]
Samantha
Hey there.
- [00:52]
Lisa
Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With Acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.
- [01:00]
Samantha
Yep. I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.
- [01:11]
Lisa
Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey, Lisa, what's trending right now?
- [01:15]
Samantha
Shopping sustainably. And my sales, of course.
- [01:18]
Lisa
Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go acast.com advertise to get started.
- [01:40]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. And we are joined by my old friend Adam Kinzinger, who's got some really, like, cool stuff behind him. I'm really, really impressed with that.
- [01:51]
Adam Kinzinger
Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
- [01:53]
Charlie Sykes
Feels like you're. It feels like you're going probably. So.
- [01:56]
Adam Kinzinger
I know, you know, all it is is a big, giant TV with a file that you put up on it. So, you know, some people have, like, nice clothy backgrounds and stuff. This is just a TV you can actually see.
- [02:06]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm. I'm kind of in the. Just. Just in the basement. Okay. So I almost feel like our podcast today should be like a lightning round where I just throw out names to you and then we go through all that, which. Which I'm going to do. But. But we have to start because I want to start with talking about Donald Trump and. And the Epstein story, which not only doesn't go away, but it strikes me, Adam, that every single time Donald Trump opens his mouth, he makes it worse for himself. So what was the latest Thing that the reason he broke with Jeffrey Epstein was he was stealing my girls, my 15 year old girls from the spa. And everybody's going, what? What are you talking about? So give me your take on what, why we are talking about this three weeks in, which is amazing given our.
- [02:54]
Adam Kinzinger
News cycle, by the way. It's, it's crazy because I was watching, I did a CNN thing on that and I, and was watching his comments and I'm like, you know, I've never seen him say, you know, okay, if he'd have said, yeah, he was stealing my girls, it was terrible, I wish I'd have known what they were going into because I would have stopped it. He has never once shown any compassion for these people. And look, even narcissists, you know, if you ever watch like American Psycho, narcissists know how to at least put on the front of compassion or empathy. And him, this is all about him. Everything is about him. And so this is actually weird because, you know, look, every time we've been in some scandal with Trump, I've, I've thought at the beginning this one's gonna take. And you know, and they're terrible and.
- [03:44]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [03:44]
Adam Kinzinger
It never does. And their comms usually are pretty good. Even though it seems non standard and weird. This one, I mean, look, if we could go back, let's say you go back to where they said, hey, there's, there's nothing there. Right. You know, they put out that announcement.
- [03:58]
Charlie Sykes
Right. If they'd have just nothing to say.
- [04:01]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. If they'd have just left it and you know, let the right wing blogs and stuff do their thing and then just kind of left it. Look, yeah, I know guys are upset, I'm telling you, blah, blah, blah. Trump then does these two screeds on Truth Social where now he blames Democrats and then he attacks his own base. So anybody with half a brain is looking at that, going, why is he so defensive? So that then is when people like me, probably people like you, started to say, okay, maybe there is something here.
- [04:34]
Charlie Sykes
Then, because like 80 of the American electorate. Yeah, like really, dude? What are you hiding?
- [04:40]
Adam Kinzinger
Exactly. Because up until that point, you know, look, Jelaine Maxwell was in jail, Epstein was dead, it was at the doj. We were assuming that they've probably pursued all leads and this thing has just kind of run its course. And now maybe some of the conspiracies, I don't believe most of the conspiracies, but there's obviously something there with Trump. So he has a there there. Yeah, there's a there there. He has mis managed this at every turn. And I don't know, I mean, I, I, I, I would not be surprised, Charlie, to wake up tomorrow and nobody cares about this anymore. And maga's all united at the same time. This could be something that creates further, you know, creates further, like cracks.
- [05:22]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, you know, I mean, two things I think are true. Number one, this is not going to be the end of Donald Trump. I think Chris Lizza made this point. This is people thinking that this is going to take him down. It's not all. On the other hand, it's a real problem because every public opinion poll that I've seen indicates that, first of all, people are not buying his line. People are paying attention. Large numbers of Americans are paying attention to this story, and that's not going to go away. But, you know, you mentioned something that I think is an interesting point. His lack of empathy for the victims, that he never once has expressed concern. And this is, this is one of his vulnerabilities because I think that he thinks that he's got this, the magic, the magic button. Just get Ghislaine Maxwell to exonerate him and then in, in exchange for a commutation or a pardon. But those victims are out there and they are real victims. Ghislaine Maxwell is not a victim. She is a sex trafficker. And if he were to pardon or to commute the sentence, these women are going to speak out and they will be listened to. And, and that's going to be, and that's going to be the story for months. And the amazing thing about this is, not only has he failed to distract attention from this story, he keeps giving it life, he keeps pushing it forward. And I think in his mind, he thinks that, okay, I know what the playbook is. I'm going to have a press conference. It's going to be exoneration, or I will release certain portions of the Epstein files and do what Bill Barr did with the, with the Russia investigation. But I just don't know that he has that option anymore. And I think that the fact that he keeps saying things that dig deeper holes is an indication that not only has he failed to distract, but he himself is distracted by this.
- [07:08]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. And you know, when he started with, I actually thought this was brilliant at first when they said, hey, we're going to ask the judge to release the grand jury testimony. Now, the good thing is that immediately it became clear because I didn't know all the legal stuff. I mean, I'm not A lawyer. It became clear that, okay, yeah, they're probably not going to release a grand jury test. I mean, I've testified in front of a grand jury before that's, you know, it's very hard to release that. But they have a ton of other stuff they could release tomorrow, today, this second. And the good thing is that came out pretty quickly. So most people understood that this idea of we're going to go to a judge for the grand jury testimony was a ruse. It was an attempt to kick the can down the road. I thought it would be successful. It wasn't. But, you know, with the. The Jelaine Maxwell, here's where I'm having a really hard time even figuring out what their strategy is here. And again, Charlie, last time I'll caveat. This, this could all come together in a magic way. And, you know, all of a sudden, you know, maga's doubled its size and it's united. I don't know. But the thing that, that I don't understand is. So Ghislaine Maxwell, obviously, sex trafficker, she knows where the. The bodies are buried. He sends his personal attorney, Todd Blanche, who, yes, is the deputy Attorney general, whatever, but has always been Trump's attorney. They sent him down to speak to Jelaine Maxwell. We don't know. There's been no indication that there was an FBI agent present to take notes, which is usually the case. So what. Who we do know is present was Todd Blanche and Jelaine Maxwell's attorney, who are friends, by the way, and that's fine. Everybody runs in the same circle, so it's that they're friends, but you would want an FBI agent or two there to take notes to be. So we don't know, but there has been no indication that they were. So what is he going to talk to Jelaine Maxwell about? Do you really think Todd Blanch is going to sit down and go, you know, Jelaine, we're concerned that Donald Trump had anything to do with this. So can you tell us if Donald Trump had anything to do, or is it more likely that he said, can you give us names of people? Maybe he straight up said that we don't like or he implied that we don't like. And by the way, a pardon's on the table now. Ghislaine Maxwell, sex trafficker, liar, everything you know all about herself, obviously, is going to say, yeah, sure, man, I'll throw anybody. I'll throw Charlie Sykes under the bus if you give me a pardon. And Trump has now publicly said he's not ruling out a pardon. Now, who, What American, what father, what anybody would say. I am not ruling out of pardon for a convicted sex trafficker. Only somebody that's worried they could be implicated in this. That's why I'm sticking to it.
- [09:52]
Charlie Sykes
Listen, I mean, he's been worried about her for years. And when he was asked about her by Jonathan Swann, he said, I wish her good, you know, I wish her well. He has. This is a guy that insults everybody. He has never said a bad word about her. So this is why I think that this, this has a real potential, I think, to blow up. To blow up in his face. Because first of all, it's so obvious that you're doing the quid pro quo. But now think about the fact that she may or may testify before the House of Representatives. She may testify. She's demanding immunity. She's, you know, saying that she won't come unless. Unless they give her the written questions. Well, let's just imagine she shows up. You know, that will be the media show of the fall. So Donald Trump wants more than anything else just to stop talking about it. And I can really conceive of a lot of different scenarios where, where this is still the biggest story in September, October, although your caveat is correct, you know, magically, it could go away. I don't know what it's going to be. Okay, so let's do the lightning round stuff here.
- [10:52]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, can I, Can I.
- [10:53]
Charlie Sykes
Sure, sure, absolutely. Please.
- [10:55]
Adam Kinzinger
The congressional side, which is.
- [10:57]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [10:57]
Adam Kinzinger
And I don't know if this is Ghislaine's strategy, but one of the things, and I had this conversation on cnn, which is the reality of this is if Congress, and we had to deal with this on the January 6th committee, if Congress gives immunity to somebody, in theory, they're making that decision for the Department of Justice, because Congress cannot give immunity on a subject, allow them to come in and testify, and then realistically, DOJ then go and prosecute them on that information. So Congress has to make a decision here. But in Jelaine's, she may be actually inoculating herself from the doj, but more than likely she's either trying to save herself or put out terms that they won't agree to.
- [11:37]
Charlie Sykes
No, I think that's exactly her play. And I mean, going back to the Todd Blanche, going down and talking with her, you know, you would think that if you are really trying to get to the bottom of an incredibly complex sex trafficking ring, you would have experts, you would have people who've Worked on this case for years and years and years. Todd Blanche is parachuting in simply as Donald Trump's protector. And he wouldn't even know the questions to ask necessarily. Okay, so you're ready for kind of the lightning round here? Because I'm just, I just, I just have list things that we have to talk about. I have to admit, this, this. You know, there's some days that are easier to get going in the morning, and there are some days ago just. Okay, so Emil Bovey, confirmed by the U.S. senate guy who is so egregiously unqualified that nine. What is, what was the number? It was 900. I have to actually look this up here. It was like 900. Former DOJ officials wrote a letter saying, just don't do this, okay? Let me just do this. I don't know why I'm having trouble here. It's because my newsletter is so freaking long. And I put this in the. Put this in the footnote. Yeah. More than 900 former U.S. department of justice employees warned the Republican controlled Senate Judiciary Committee against confirming Trump's nominee, Emil Bovet, to serve as an appellate court court judge. We are all alarmed by DOJ's leadership's recent deviations from constitutional principles and institutional guardrails, the former department employees wrote, adding that he had disgraced the department. Emil Bovey has been a leader in this assault. There were multiple whistleblowers who came forward and said, this guy is just off the charts bad actor. These whistleblowers who put their lives and their careers on the line to tell the United States Senate that this was the guy that said we should tell federal judges to go fuck themselves and everything. And you know what? It wasn't even a speed bump for the Senate. They didn't even blink. And in many ways, look, there's been some horrible appointees. Horrible, terrible appointees, but those guys come and go. Even Tulsi Gabbard, they come and go. Federal judges are forever. And if this Senate couldn't say no to Emil Beauvais, it feels as if the whole system has just basically said, throw up their hands and said, just it, whatever Donald wants.
- [14:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Yep, yep, that's. It's exactly where we are. I mean, honestly, Judge Judy should, like, you know, swear allegiance to Trump because she may get the next, you know, Supreme Court position. And, you know, it's like, look, emo Bove. So first off, the appellate court, even though we don't pay a ton of attention to it, is very important. This is like, yes, just under the Supreme Court, but not much under the Supreme Court. A lot of stuff gets decided through the appellate court. It's also in the appellate court that they usually pick Supreme Court justices. And I wouldn't be surprised if he turns around and puts Emil Bove as a replacement for Clarence Thomas. I mean, honestly, nothing would surprise me.
- [14:44]
Charlie Sykes
That is not implausible.
- [14:45]
Adam Kinzinger
No, it's not. And here's the thing with the Senate is like, okay, so you know, if you have a guy that's, you know, escaped a mental health institution and you've got him in the front lines of Ukraine fighting and he's, he's there because you have no other soldiers, that's understandable. There are a ton of other people that could serve in that role that would be honorable. And the Senate knows this. And this is the thing, Charlie, I am tired of as you are. I'm sure these senators, okay, who, you know, Mike Lee, I hate him. But you know what? He's, he's just, he's a clown. But people like, you know, North Carolina guy, you know, Tom. Yeah, Tom Tills, you know, all these people that pretend like they're independent, pretend like they're upset. You know, Tillis says he regrets voting for Pete Hegseth now. Oh, gosh, really? He also is the reason. He's the one that shepherded Cash Patel through for the FBI. And it's like at some point, guys and I, and same with the House so called moderates, you know, with the exception of Brian Fitzpatrick, there's a lot of people that talk great and then just turn around and toe the party line. That's what the U.S. senate is. And I'm old enough to remember a time when the U.S. senate took pride in their independence and every senator took pride in their independence. They don't anymore. And let me one more time just riff on one last person. Bill Cassidy. Bill Cassidy voted to remove Donald Trump from office after January 6th. And I had so much respect for that. He's from Louisiana. Now, coming to an election year, Bill Cassidy has been the exact opposite of what he was the first four years. He's the one that, you know, shepherded Kennedy through hhs, everything else. So in the time he's in an election period, he becomes a sycophant for Trump. And yet these House members are always in an election period. And like, what is the point? So, fine, you show some, some hero for four years when you're not up for, but then for two years you try to erase that. Why even be in the Senate? I just don't Understand, honestly, if I had to sit there and basically take my pants off in front of the country all the time, I don't think the job is worth it. I just don't.
- [17:09]
Charlie Sykes
General Walsh doesn't, wouldn't get this. James Madison. When they created the Senate, the Senate was supposed to be the calmer, more judicious body. It was supposed to be where you cooled the tea. And they wrote extensively about the, the powers of the Senate. And you know what? We're going to have generations who aren't going to remember when we had senators who in their own way were, you know, in their own right, were icons who were major powers, who were not simply potted plants, who did not see their role as simply being errand boys for the President. I mean, there were giants of the Senate and you know, the President, at one time, the President United States would sit across the table from the speaker of the House basically as a co equal. And you had powerful senators, you know, these lions of the Senate who would look at somebody like Emil Bove and look at the whistleblowers and go, you know what? We take our constitutional powers of advice and consent seriously. We are not going to surrender that for a two bit thuggish hack like Amel Bovey. And by the way, people should go back and I know people aren't going to do this. Our memories are so short. Go back and read the letters of those SDNY attorneys. These were conservatives. I think the acting U.S. attorney had been a clerk for Justice Scalia. And when Emil Bovey came in and basically said, yeah, I want you to, you know, tank the case against Mayor Adams in New York. And they, they resigned, a lot of them resigned, said this is completely unethical. I think one of them wrote a letter saying maybe you'll find some idiot who will, you know, obey the orders, but I'm not because I actually care about the law. And this is the guy that Donald Trump basically has put on the appellate court. And so I think that there's been a failure of imagination all along. And maybe we ought to do a podcast on this sometime. Think of the most outrageous person you possibly can for the U.S. supreme Court. You mentioned Judge Judy. I mean, if you and I have been talking about Dan Bongino being Deputy director of the FBI or Cash Patel, and by the way, Dan Bongino, he's going through some things. If you notice that he's kind of having a nervous breakdown in public. What a, what a surprise prize. It's kind of throwing out qanon stuff like hey, man, I'm finding stuff here you wouldn't believe. You people like hello, you know, and there are, you know, even in the conspiracy world, people are going, well, Dan, maybe you should tell us what it is instead of just putting out tweets about. But anyway, it's. He has, he has taken the most bizarre folks gene, you know, Judge, you know, Jeanine, she could be on the Supreme Court. Ghislaine Maxwell could end up on the Supreme Court and this Senate would confirm him. So. All right. Okay, next one mentioned his name. Pete Hegseth is going through some things. The Secretary of Defense now, I'm not sure which is the latest story where he intervened. A guy who was all slated to become a four star general and everything, and for some reason he vetoed. Does seem as if there are a lot of people within the Pentagon who are just completely lost all confidence in him. He's losing his own top aides. You're a military guy, you know, give me some sense of the Pete Hegseth meltdown in the Pentagon.
- [20:21]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I mean, look, here's the thing. I talked to a former Secretary of defense that you and I both know who basically told me, he goes, look, when you're Secretary of Defense, you can either do stuff or you can be a show horse. And he goes, if you want to be a show horse, the generals will be like, they'll be great with that because then they can do their thing and the Pentagon will run no matter who you are. So in terms of like the effectiveness in the military and stuff, I think, I think we're probably still as lethal and effective as we have been. But I also know somebody who was very close to Pete Hexath at the beginning. Well, I mean, he's one of the people you read about in the newspaper with all this drama going on. And as he said, basically once signal gate happened, Pete started getting very paranoid. Started. I'll be honest with you. I think he's drinking again. If he ever stopped and, you know, and, and not impulsive, it became all about the show. So every day he goes and meets with some military guys and works out, okay, fine, whatever, that's okay. And. But I think he's in a full utter meltdown right now. Now think about this. I feel like if you put me in the Secretary of Defense role, it would take me a few months to be like, okay, I'm gonna rely on some of the people around me to figure out how this thing works before, you know, start to get your sea legs under you. Right. And that's how every leader should come in. I think Pete Hegseth didn't do that. The guy was a major in the air, in the National Guard, never served in government and was a weekend TV host. Totally ill qualified for this. So this breakdown is absolutely understandable. And what he's done instead of actually trying to lead is he's taken every little thing he reported on in Fox News over the last 10 years or he reads about on Twitter and he's made a deal about it and it's all culture war. We're going to call it, we're going to call it Fort Bragg, but we're not going to name it after General, you know, Bragg in the Confederacy. We're going to name it after Jake Bragg, who was a cook, you know. You know, and it's like this too cute by half crap. And yeah, he's going to go down as probably the worst secretary of defense ever. And I don't think this ends pretty. I think we're in the end of him and I think it's not very pretty.
- [22:31]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I mean, the fact that they're already floating out, you know, somebody's political ambitions, running for various office. I think he's looking for an exit ramp or somebody is. I mean, the fact that you even have the story that is, I assume, leaked out that the White House had told him, hey, you have to stop giving polygraph tests to everybody, you know, that comes in your office.
- [22:49]
Adam Kinzinger
I mean, Pete, that's paranoia. That's paranoid.
- [22:52]
Charlie Sykes
That is some significant paranoia. Okay, so back to the theme of capitulation, the chronicles of capitulation. You have the United States Senate capitulating to Donald Trump. Last week it was, you know, paramount. Capitulating to Donald Trump. CBS capitulating to Donald Trump. And just the last 48 hours, we get that report in the New York Times that Harvard, Harvard.
- [23:18]
Adam Kinzinger
I didn't even hear this.
- [23:19]
Charlie Sykes
Oh my God. No, no, it's, it's, it's like. And they are apparently open to paying a fine of $500 million more than twice as much as they leach, as they leached out of Columbia. Because Donald Trump really, you know, has a hard on for Harvard. And I, you know, again, it's, it's the Donald Trump is being Donald Trump. But I think the story of this presidency has been just the absolute collapse of people that you would have stood up. And here's the thing about Harvard, the thing that gets me the most about Harvard. Well, actually there's so many things that get me about this is that they've challenged this in court, and just last week at a federal judge who made it pretty clear that he was not going to side with the Trump administration's attempt to extort money from Harvard. In other words, Harvard could win the legal case. The law firms that have actually challenged, you know, the attacks by the administration have been winning in court, and yet they still capitulate. They can't win. If they stand up, they can win, but they still capitulate.
- [24:28]
Adam Kinzinger
I don't get it. I, I, look, I don't get it. I mean, as a man, like, and I've said this a hundred times, come after me, Trump. I'm not going to bow to you. Right. Do I want him to come after me? No, but, like, I'm not going to bow to you. And, yeah, he might. And I just, I don't get this, because first off, let's think of who Donald Trump is. He's a, he's not going to, I'm sorry, he's not going to be on the earth much longer. Dude's not healthy. He is absolutely losing his mind. Right. There is nothing about him that makes sense. Like, and you're scared of him, and you're scared that, like, and this is Harvard, who, you know, I've had disagreements with Harvard. I'm sure we all have. You've written books about this, but you believe in academic freedom and for Harvard to do, to basically bow and these law firms to bow. And by the way, the message to the law firms is not like, we need your money. It's, don't represent the people we go after.
- [25:26]
Charlie Sykes
That's what, yeah, that's what they really is.
- [25:27]
Adam Kinzinger
Right. And they also want, and, yeah, and they want their money. And, but this is Viktor Orban. I mean, this is, this is the death, this is the death of democracy in the Senate, by the way.
- [25:37]
Charlie Sykes
On steroids.
- [25:38]
Adam Kinzinger
On steroids. And just back. It's been six months. This is six months. We're not in year three, looking back at the damage and saying, what's happened to us. This is six months. Now, the good thing is they may run out of steam, but I, I just, you know, and, like, the Senate, just, just to harp on that again, this is like Rome. This is like late Rome, where the Senate becomes an instrument of the emperor. And I, I don't, you know, if you'd have told me in January that Trump would have basically broken the academic backbone of this country, I, I, well, I would have believed you, but I would have found it unthinkable.
- [26:13]
Charlie Sykes
And, and the, and the Media. I mean, look, I mean, we, we found out that the whole media, the media structure, you know, corporate media used to be. I kind of shrug that off. But, but it turns out that, you know, when you have these large corporations controlling, you know, the media, the media entities are basically like little vanity projects on this. On the side, they don't give a shit. The people who run Paramount Skydive, they don't give a shit about cbs, the Tiffany network. They're, they're, they're, they're prepared to throw that out, but it is this willingness to just roll over out of fear. And of course, I mean, look, this has now become kind of a cliche, but I mean, the fear is, the point is to get people to be anxious and to have somebody in the room who say, you know, the easiest thing would be just pay him. Pay him, you know, pay, Pay the extortionist off, pay the, you know, pay the blackmailer off, pay the kidnapper off. Everything will be okay. I don't know if you should check this out. Axios actually has a chart of all of the money that Trump has now extorted from all of the institutions. It's more than a billion dollars, and they're willing to pay it. And of course, the big flaw is really, you're giving up so much principle, and even with that amount of money, you're not really going to buy yourself any real safety because Donald Trump is just simply becomes emboldened by all of that. But this is where at. And you mentioned Viktor Orban. It took Viktor Orban 15 years to do what Trump is doing in six months.
- [27:38]
Adam Kinzinger
In six months. And with the media side of it like it's not even. Again, yes, the money matters. But the point is, let's say, okay, not we won't use Ms. Or cnn, let's say, you know, News Nation, okay, let's say News Nation gets sued by Trump and now what happens? Let's say News Nation makes a decision. We're not going to bow. We're not going to bow. Yeah, but then when they're sitting in the room and they get a story about Ghislaine Maxwell or about Epstein or something, are they much more likely to say, you know what, run the story? Are they much more likely to say, oh, let's just stay away from it, let's stay away from it because Trump can kill us.
- [28:15]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay, now here's the one, maybe temporarily positive aspect of that, because that's what happened at the Wall Street Journal, right? The Wall Street Journal had that story this is Rupert Murdoch's paper and now Trump is suing them for $10 billion. So far, Rupert Murdoch has not blinked. Trump is going after him. He wants to expedite the, the depositions. I don't know. Do you have a sense? I mean, he's, he's brought Fox News to his knees before, but Rupert Murdoch is 94 years old and I don't know.
- [28:48]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, so far. I don't, I hope. Now again, let's use our standard thing, this could all collapse tomorrow. But, right. I hope that Murdoch is like, I'm not going to go out like this. Like, I might go out, fall into this guy. I mean, I would think Rupert Murdoch sees himself as an equal to, and maybe even in some cases superior to Donald Trump. And so he's probably like, no, I'm not going to do it. And I guarantee you this is the Wall Street Journal. If this was some liberal rag, I could be like, well, maybe they, maybe I wouldn't believe it, but maybe they didn't get all the sourcing that they needed for this story. The Wall Street Journal did not want to run this story. I promise you this is not something that they said, gosh, we want to take down Donald Trump because they like Donald Trump, but they got the story and they made sure they sourced it. You and I were both hearing rumors for a week prior that Wall Street Journal had some big bombshell. How did we know? Because Wall Street Journal was calling to get sourcing to make sure this stuff was right. And you know, this wasn't done willy nilly. This wasn't Gawker or something like that. So they're on solid ground. And I would hope that Rupert Murdoch, for all of his plots, flaws, which are extreme, many of them, actually does defend his ability to put source stories.
- [30:01]
Charlie Sykes
I think that, and that would be a good way for him to, to go out. You know, maybe finally there's somebody who says, I actually am concerned about my legacy and how I'm going to be remembered. And I am not going to, I'm not going to, you know, bend over for this, this flatulent fraud, by the way. I just, we don't have time to get into it in great detail, but I think your analogy to the Roman Senate is pretty accurate because a lot of this would not be happening. In fact, almost none of this would be happening if you had four or five senators who just said, Trump said to Trump, okay, we'll go along with your tax cuts and some of the other things. We'll give you most of your Cabinet members. But we're gonna draw the line. I think that the world looks at Donald Trump and sees no checks and balances whatsoever. And there's no checks and balances because the United States Senate has decided that it literally doesn't want to be the United States Senate anymore. So.
- [30:51]
Adam Kinzinger
Totally. And just, but just real quick on that, too. Like, I guess I don't understand how people in their first year of another term that are not even going to be up for reelection until two years after Donald Trump's out of office are still scared of him. What is it? They don't want to look at Twitter. They don't want to answer their town halls. They don't want the discomfort. Not that. Not even losing their job. They don't want, they don't want the text from their friends. That's what it is.
- [31:17]
Charlie Sykes
Well, they, they, they, they, they want the power. And, you know, being a senator is a, is a cool thing. I, I had a United States Senator that I used to speak with every, every week before he lost his mind. And he was one once described all the perks, and he thought that he was very amused at them at the beginning, but I think he's become a little bit addicted. So going back to this media story, if you think, and again, I, I know anytime you appeal to history, it's, it's somewhat naive, but Richard Nixon had an enemies list. He didn't publicize it, he didn't post about it. He really wanted to use the power of the federal government to go after the media. He famously threatened Catherine Graham, who was the CEO of the Washington Post, you know, that he was going to, you know, go after her if she pursued Watergate. She wanted to buy some radio stations. And he was, you know, playing around with the idea of using his power to block that. Of course, now the, the corporations and the corporate ties are much more elaborate. But the most famous story in American journalism up until this year was Kathryn Graham basically saying, forget it. No, I'm not going to be intimidated by Richard Nixon. I am not going to let him get away with this. And we will publish those Watergate stories. It feels as if we've now gone through the mirror and we're getting the absolute opposite story that where Katharine Graham stood for firm. Jeff Bezos caves in. You know, where, where you had, you know, major media companies saying, you know, our journalistic mission is so important, are now saying, no, you know, I want that. The other thing is that Donald Trump is publishing the enemy's list. He talks about the enemy's list all the time. He's got a chairman of the fcc, Brendan Carr, who makes it nakedly clear we are using the power of the FCC to monitor bias in cbs. Now, I do think bias is a legitimate issue, but in a First Amendment country, you would hope that the federal government wouldn't be going after it. So let's talk about the enemy's list. You're on the enemy's list. You know this over the weekend, Donald Trump says, and he doesn't even think about this, says, yeah, we should have a criminal prosecution of Kamala Harris, Oprah Winfrey, help me if I forget any Bono, Al Sharpton, Bruce Springsteen. I mean, you go, yes, Barack Obama, who's committed treason. And it's almost like, there goes Trump again. Like, wait, we're talking about the President of the United States who has access to nuclear weapons, who controls the Department of Justice, who can destroy people's lives. And every day he's spinning out somebody else's name, whether it's Chris Krebs or Miles to Taylor or whether it's, it's Adam Kinzinger now, you know, you're saying, bring it on. But the reality is that he doesn't have to arrest all those people. He's just got to get a lot of people thinking, shit, they could do that. I, you know, I might have to spend a million dollars on legal fees. Right?
- [34:16]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, it was, I don't know if it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer or somebody that basically talked about how now somebody more recent even talking, I think I, and I'm going to botch this, but talking about Hungary and just said, basically, what happens is people go from engagement in their civil society to making the decision to kind of shrink your world and live your life. So all of a sudden you're interested in politics, you decide, you know what? I'm not going to highlight myself. I'm going to shrink my world. It may be legitimate. I have a kid, you know, I'm wife, whatever. You shrink your world. You go about your life and listen, if you do that, you're going to live a fairly comfortable life, right? Unless the economy collapses because just don't get in their way. But this is, this is the thing that's crazy to me is so every day there's more damage that's being done. Again, we can talk about an enemy's list now. And it's not like nobody gasps anymore. It's just right.
- [35:13]
Charlie Sykes
Nobody gasps.
- [35:15]
Adam Kinzinger
Nope. And he has shown that he can do this, that, I mean, he's shown that the Stuff that he threatens. He wants to be taken literally and seriously now, by the way. But an ought to be. Yeah, absolutely. And here's what, here's what bothers me is for 250 years, as of next year, this country will have been on the earth. Every generation through next year has had their challenge in this country, you know, many generations. It was war, it was World War II, it was World War I, it was civil war, you know, all the way through pandemics, whatever. And it comes to our generations, you know, to literally carry this torch through 250 years to the next generation. And we're failing at this. And we're failing not because we don't have enough people to man a trench against Nazis. We're failing not because, you know, the, the Soviet Union is winning the ideological war. We're failing because what, we're tired, we're exhausted of watching it on TV because we accept what Donald Trump is doing as normal now or, or it's just, you know what, we're just gonna have to deal with it. And granted, there's not a ton we can do for three and a half years. But the point is, we have a decision to make as a generation if this country literally dies on our shoulders or not, and if we're the generation that it dies without a war or without something like really serious, that's a, that's a shame. That's a stain on everybody from the baby boomers through Generation Z right now, I think.
- [36:42]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I could not agree more strongly. I read that piece that you wrote, and I have been arguing that in my newsletters almost every day. I said, look, this is not a drill. This is the challenge of our generation. This is the story of our time. This is one of the reasons why I'm sitting here, as opposed to going and playing with my dogs, realizing that, okay, this is it right now. And, and I do think that the stakes are as high as, as you stated, although, you know, I'm not you. I think you put it rather eloquently that, you know, next year is the 250th birthday. You know, what is the country going to look like? And so this is the challenge for all of us. And, you know, we all get tired, we all get discouraged. You know, I, I, I wanted to step away from the fire hose. I, I know that you get tired. I mean, we all do. And people need to understand that. We may be on, on tv, but, you know, we go through the same process as well. And at some point you have to step up and go. Okay, you know, this is, I was put here for this, to do this. This is the challenge. It's not done. I mean, I could say I've done enough, but the reality is none of us have done enough. Right. Because until, until, until we answer the question that you just posed. We haven't done enough. Okay. So I want to ask you, since we're on the issue of the enemies list, looks like your former Republican colleagues in the House are going to have an investigation of the January 6 committee again. Hell, is that, what is that going to be?
- [38:10]
Adam Kinzinger
I don't know. Like, here's the thing, they did this last Congress and they gave a report, and now all of a sudden, because Trump wants his vengeance. And keep in mind, it's already been six months, so they only have a year and a half to do it. So I don't know. I mean, except that they, they, they've. Look, when you have a guilty conscience, you're going to do everything you can to alleviate that guilt. And they know, I mean, every one of these people On C, on CIA Truth Juice know that. They, you know, that January 6th was, was what it was. So they're trying to discredit it. And here's the thing, honestly. And I, I, so I don't want them to do it because I think it's damaging for, for the country. But there's part of me that, and I'm not even joking, Charlie, I would love there to be a public hearing that I am testifying in, because I know all the rules of the House and I know what I can and can't do, and I will make an utter, complete mockery of it. And that's my plan. And I'm going to tell you. Let's say Jim Jordan's there. Let's say Jim Jordan's there. I will read his statements that he has made in history next to a Bible verse that obviously his statement violates what that verse is. I will go through all these people's things that they said, particularly after January 6th, what they said, and I'll wear a freaking clown nose doing it. I don't care, because this is a joke. And if they want to turn the House of Representatives into a joke, I can play the game, and I will.
- [39:36]
Charlie Sykes
Well, because I know if they want to make it a show, then give, give them the show. And, and by the way, I said something on, on an MSNBC the other day that I'm still working it through why Trump is so shook by everything that's going on with Epstein is because Donald Trump understands he doesn't care about policy, he doesn't care about ideas, he doesn't care about the Constitution, doesn't care about that. But he cares about the show, doesn't he? Yeah, he is the exact. If you think of him as seeing everything in the world through the lens of television, television shows, he is the executive producer and we're in season two of the Epstein Files. And so he's got to be careful about this because he understands the power of the show. Bringing Ghislaine Maxwell in, bringing Adam Kinzinger or Liz Cheney into Congress for these major productions, because, you know, I think it was the, I'm trying to think of the conversation I had with somebody. You know, people may not be parsing out, you know, the details of nuclear non proliferation or what is the, our tariff deal with Bahrain, but they understand these issues and they understand the plot twists and the drama of all of this. And drama often works on Trump's, in Trump's favor. But I think that the real danger is that he's going to realize that this is not, he is not the character that is looking good in season two of all of this. Okay, one last question here. What do you make of Trump's continuing pivot? I'm just going to put pivot in words, his changing tone on Ukraine, because I think you and I both thought that he was pretty determined to abandon Ukraine to switch sides in the Cold War. His rhetoric about Vladimir Putin continues to increase as part of that utterly incoherent, batshit crazy stuff that he was doing over in the United Kingdom. He did say that he's very unhappy with Vladimir Putin. He gave him a 50 day window. He's going to lower it to 10, 15. I mean 10 to 20 days. What do you make of all of this? Does he realize that Vladimir Putin's playing him for an idiot?
- [41:42]
Adam Kinzinger
So good question. First off, I will believe all this when I see it. Okay. That's the caveat.
- [41:47]
Charlie Sykes
Good answer.
- [41:48]
Adam Kinzinger
And I do think there is an extent of. Yes. I mean, Putin's embarrassed him. Putin, you know, I think he really thought that he could use his force of power personality with Vladimir Putin. Vladimir Putin's very good at flattering and, and Donald Trump is, you know, is pissed now. Does he have the strength to stand up? I don't think so. Because even in, when he attacked Iran, he didn't go back for a second or a third strike because he was so eager to end that conflict. He was so eager. Actually, you know, I think it was More damaging for us to have done it if we weren't willing to follow up. So, on the Ukraine thing, yes. I mean, I think there's a little bit of the embarrassment there. But here's what bothers me about it. You know, I'll take what this pivot is as beneficial for Ukraine because we're better than where we were in January.
- [42:37]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, yeah.
- [42:39]
Adam Kinzinger
But we as a country. So Terry Verts, who's running for Senate here in Texas as a Democrat, made the point to me to. I heard him on a podcast, and he said, look, he said, you know, in Texas, when a hurricane hits, I go outside and I help my neighbors clean up. He goes, if something's broken, we go to the Home Depot to purchase it. Now, the Home Depot is not there to help us. The Home Depot is a merchant. It's there to sell things. Doesn't matter if a hurricane hit. They're not there to help. They're there to sell. That's what the United States has become. In Ukraine. We used to go in there as a really rich country that spends $900 billion a year on defense, and we're spending 5% of that to defeat one of the strategic enemies that we're posturing against. But now we're unwilling to give that equipment to Ukraine, which, by the way, is just old American stuff we were going to have to destroy anyway. And we've turned into a merchant country. So we are now Home Depot. And maybe that's fine. Maybe that's where America is going to go. Maybe we're the arsenal of democracy, but we're actually charging forward retail price. I just think that does a lot of damage to our moral standing around the world, probably at a cost far greater than what we could have supported Ukraine in. And by the way, there's something we got to watch over the next few days. This idea of secondary sanctions, which I think if. If Trump does it, is very powerful. And supposedly he's moving against India on this.
- [44:07]
Charlie Sykes
India.
- [44:08]
Adam Kinzinger
China is very desperate to meet with him, so I'll be interested to see if he backs off of this after meeting with China. China is 100% behind Russia right now. And so if you wonder who's the bad guy between Russia and Ukraine, look who's on Russia's side. China, North Korea, Iran.
- [44:25]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I have a hard time imagining him really standing up to China. Adam Kinzinger, thank you for another outstanding conversation. I really appreciate this. Thanks for coming back on the podcast.
- [44:34]
Adam Kinzinger
Anytime, man.
- [44:35]
Charlie Sykes
You bet, anytime. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the contrary podcast. We continue to do this because this is the fight of our generation. This is the story of our time. And we constantly have to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones.
- [45:02]
Adam Kinzinger
Foreign.
- [45:08]
Lisa
Hello listeners. Meet Lisa.
- [45:10]
Samantha
Hey there.
- [45:11]
Lisa
Lisa runs an online boutique specializing in sustainable fashion. With acast, she found a whole new way to reach eco conscious shoppers.
- [45:18]
Samantha
Yep, I recorded a quick ad targeted listeners interested in fashion and sustainability using acast's audience attributes targeting feature and set my budget. Before I knew it, people all over were hearing about my shop.
- [45:30]
Lisa
Now that's a smart way to grow your business. Hey Lisa, what's trending right now?
- [45:34]
Samantha
Shopping sustainably and my sales, of course.
- [45:37]
Lisa
Start reaching your ideal audience through podcast ads with Acast. Visit go.acast.com advertise to get started. Say hello to Samantha.
- [45:52]
Samantha
Hi there.
- [45:54]
Lisa
Samantha built a SaaS platform that helps small businesses manage their workflow flow. But she needed a smarter way to reach decision makers.
- [46:00]
Samantha
That's where ACAST came in. They helped me produce a professional audio ad which played to business owners and ops leads using their audience attributes targeting tools. Suddenly, my platform was showing up in the ears of the exact people I needed to reach.
- [46:13]
Lisa
Now that's streamlined marketing. Samantha, what's your tip for scaling smart?
- [46:16]
Samantha
Solve a real problem and make sure the right people hear about it.
- [46:20]
Lisa
Promote your business with podcast ads on Acast. Get started at go.acast.com advertise.