← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Adam Kinzinger: Trump Tales a Wrecking Ball to the White House
00:43:48
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- [00:00]
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- [01:32]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, wow, it's another day. I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. And on these days when you go, wow, what a day, I always want to talk to my good friend Adam Kinzinger. How are you, sir?
- [01:43]
Adam Kinzinger
Buddy, it is great to be with you. Just wonderful. Yeah, I'm great. I'm fantastic. Thank you for asking.
- [01:49]
Charlie Sykes
All right, I'm sorry to start every podcast the same way, but where should we begin here? Can we just talk about the fact that the President of the United States is demanding the taxpayers write out a check for $230 million. I mean, it's like, have we gotten so numbed about just the open corruption, the president saying, and. And it will have to be approved by his own lackeys, who will have to decide, yes, Mr. President, we're going to give you $230 million as compensation for all the terrible things the Department of Justice did to you.
- [02:20]
Adam Kinzinger
Unbelievable. Unbelievable. I think so. I mean, unless he does. I mean, literally, unless he decides no, because he's made enough on his other corruption. But Speaker Johnson today was. Was basically like, I forget what he said, but he had some outrageous comment about it. And you know, how he's been mistreated and the Republicans won't. I mean, they're not going to do anything to Stop this. You know, it. Even our so called, you know, the, like the two people that put out tweets every now and again that are good, you know, Don Bacon and some others, they're not going to do anything to stop it. And I mean, it's just, it's, it's, and let's think about this on top. So it's not that there was no independent finding that Donald Trump was wronged. Right. Donald Trump's prosecution was on track. Then he became President and forced the Department of Justice to drop the case. So it's, it wasn't dropped because, you know, there was some finding that he was wrong. So he basically is creating his own scenario. I mean, look, if you're President of the United States ever, I mean, from here forward, you may as well sue yourself and then finding your.
- [03:26]
Charlie Sykes
Pay yourself, pay yourself.
- [03:28]
Adam Kinzinger
And this is, by the way, Charlie, this is what happens in Latin American countries. It's this, you know, are they that blatant though?
- [03:35]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, I would think the banana republics are blushing about this. Like, oh, come on. I mean, it's just like it's out in the open. Give me the 230 million. Okay, so you mentioned Mike Johnson. And of course, you know, you know, Socrates, famous question comes to mind when we ask about Mike Johnson. What the fuck is with that guy? I mean, seriously, I mean, I know he's got a lot of time on his hands since he doesn't actually have a House of Representatives that's been doing anything for months, but in the last, in the last seven days comes out and says, yes, these, these no Kings rallies are hate America rallies. You know, he's going to show up these extremists, Hamas supporting antifa folks. And what happens, you know, grandmas come out, people dressed as Tyrannosaurus Rex and unicorns. And, and then he turns around and he is about the only, well, he's not the only man in America. But it's like you're wondering who's going to come up with the lamest justification for Donald Trump's AI video of himself in the jet taking a big shit upon fellow Americans. And there's the speaker of the House of Representatives going, it is satire because it's exactly the kind of thing you'd find in the Old Testament. Or when I read Shakespeare, when the successor to Abraham Lincoln says, let us take a dump upon our fellow Americans. So, I mean, what is with Mike Johnson? Give me your, I don't know, help me here.
- [04:59]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, the amazing thing about it too is, you know, I'VE been saying this more and more, which is like, the Founding fathers always envisioned a guy like Trump. That's not a surprise to them, but they never envisioned a Congress that would so willingly kind of flip and roll over. And so Speaker Johnson, I mean, the only thing I can figure. So first off, I will say, I no idea how you can call yourself a Christian and do the kind of things he does, which is, first off, first and foremost, regardless of the policy, he's blatantly lying. And he knows he's lying every time he says, oh, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know this story, it's a lie. And, you know, the only thing I can figure, Charlie, if he truly does take his faith seriously and think, is that he has somehow convinced himself that Donald Trump, like so many in the evangelical movement, have convinced themselves that Donald Trump is literally a godsend character and necessary for our time. And Mike Johnson is simply playing his role as Moses leading the Republican Party in America.
- [06:02]
Charlie Sykes
I think you're giving him way too much credit here. I don't know.
- [06:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah.
- [06:07]
Charlie Sykes
You know, the George Santos story, segueing onto that, you take probably one of the most, the feculent crooks of our lifetimes, a serial liar, a guy who's a punchline, and the President, United States goes, you know who I'm going to use my constitutionally granted powers of pardon commutation. I'm going to let George Santos out. I guess part of it is that all of these guys, every time there's an outrage, they feel they have to cling more tightly to the orange God, king's robes, because that gives them immunity, freedom from accountability. And if they let loose, if they break, if they say, you know, I disagree or I disapprove of that, you know, they might find themselves in the category of James Comey, Miles Taylor, John Bolton. And so the more outrageous he becomes, the more willing he is to abuse his pardon power. It feels as. And the retaliation that there's less and less dissent. There's less and less. I mean, when you were there, it was hard to get Republicans to say anything negative. Now it feels like it doesn't matter what story, doesn't matter whether he's in shittifying the White House, taking a dump on Americans, you know, grifting $230 million. No one's gonna say anything or do anything, are they?
- [07:32]
Madupa Akinola
No.
- [07:32]
Adam Kinzinger
I mean, look, if you think back to the first term, you remember it was controversial when he said, you know, deport, you know, the Two congresswomen or whatever. Oh, yeah, Rashida Taliban. And in fact, There were like 50 Republicans. Yeah, there were like 50 Republicans that were going to vote to condemn him. And, you know, and that was pretty mild compared to what he's doing today. They're used to actually be an opposition, but you don't. You don't see that anymore. And I think, Charlie, to your point about, you know, clinging tighter to him, I'm going to only use this example because it's powerful in history, and I'm not comparing the Republican Party to that. But if you think back to Nazi Germany, right, Every time somebody committed an act on behalf of the Nazi party that, you know, whether it was murder, whether it was genocide, whatever it was, you would end up becoming a more fervent supporter because a. As the human condition, you have to convince yourself that what you're doing is moral. And humans are amazingly capable of convincing themselves that anything they do is moral. But secondarily, you know that now you have to win because if, in fact, you ever lose, you'll be held accountable to that. And so, whether consciously or subconsciously, these members of Congress now are saying, look, we have got to double down on Trump. We've got. This is why, you know, let's use illiberal ways to stay in power to. Because if the Democrats ever win, we're in trouble. And I think there is a. There is a conscious and subconscious element of that in some of this action.
- [09:04]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, I. We can come back. We can come back that. I was actually thinking of the. Of the analogy of being in a mob, you know, being a made man. It's one of the reasons why, you know, if you're part of a gang, you're part of organized crime, go out there, commit a crime, do something for, you know, the Godfather, and then they own you because, you know, you now are. You now are complicit, you are guilty with them. And I think that's part of it. I do wonder their recklessness is so extreme now. I mean, the graft is so open that you do wonder, would you behave this way if you ever thought there was a possibility that the other side would have these levers of power? You know, this is why people don't abuse power, because you think if I use that, it might be used against me. So these guys are acting as if there's never going to be a Democratic attorney general, there's never going to be a Democratic president who appoints U.S. attorneys. Right? I mean, is it because of the immunity, because of the pardon Power. I.
- [10:04]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, look, yeah. I mean.
- [10:05]
Charlie Sykes
Or do they think they're never going to give up power?
- [10:08]
Adam Kinzinger
I think it's a little of both. I mean, I also think that. Again, so now you're talking. You know the Tom Holman types, right, that take 50,000 in a paper bag. I think their hope is that Donald Trump protects them. The members of Congress are. Their hope is that they never lose power. And if they do lose power, that as long as the 35 to 40% of Americans that they're comfortable in, the Fox News watcher content watchers continue to support them. That's a comfortable enough bubble for them. That's a power bubble. And I just, I also think it's just after 10 years, this is the thing is Donald Trump's been in our life for 10 years now, which is Jesus. Crazy to think about. Yeah, it is. And after 10 years, the people that were willing to put up a fight or that weren't willing to put up a fight, but also weren't willing to stay have all been washed out. And so now you've been replaced by either true believers or replaced by people that literally were only there because they love the title and they'll do anything to keep it. So any, any semblance of any Republican that ever got elected with some truly, I want to go do good. In their heart, they're gone. They're not there anymore.
- [11:16]
Charlie Sykes
And that's a fact. Yeah. And he's also surrounded himself with people, and you and I have talked about this before, people who have really owe all of their power and their celebrity to him. I mean, they're not people who are, at leave in Trump 1.0, there were some significantly substantive people there. There had been people who had been CEOs of major corporations or had been generals who had lives who were people of accomplishment. You know, he's dragging people out of, you know, frankly, I mean, what, what drunk tank did he pull Pete Hegseth out of? And where does Pete Hegseth go if it's not for them? By the way, speaking of Pete Hegseth.
- [11:52]
Adam Kinzinger
By the way, can I, can I make a point on that, though, real quick? Yeah, it's just the, the. Because that culture is important. I remember in the first Trump administration, when you went to the Trump Hotel, it was filled with, I don't know if you ever went, but it's filled with, like, Mar a Lago face people.
- [12:10]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [12:10]
Adam Kinzinger
It's filled with, you know, all the Fox News personalities. And it's a place where no matter where you're from. If you go there, you all of a sudden are kind of either exposed to this kind of Hollywood culture that that MAGA is, or you're part of it. And if you're a B level person that's on Fox News occasionally and you go to the Trump Hotel, now that's become Mar a Lago. But if you go to one of those places, you walk in and you're Arnold Schwarzenegger to those people. And there is something you said about that, which is that is very addictive. And I think people need to never discount that fact.
- [12:45]
Charlie Sykes
No, no, people do respond to that. That's not a new phenomenon. You know, I actually have a weird memory of that. That phenomenon. You're talking about John Dean when he was counsel to Richard Nixon, you know, before they got into Watergate. He actually describes a scene where he is this young White House counsel and he's on. I don't know if he's on a commercial plane or a military plane, but when the plane lands, people come on in uniform and they say Mr. Dean gets off the plane first. And he describes just the ego boost that was to be in that, surrounded by that. And that is a very, very powerful drug. Okay, so let's talk about our good friend Pete Hegseth. There's a lot to be said about him, but this I thought was rather extraordinary, this story that I am holding here. He lost us General. Senior officers say trust in Hegseth has evaporated. Secretary's critics worry. Pentagon at risk of enduring damage amid firings, resignations and early retirements of high ranking staff. Okay, same old, same old. The Washington Times. This is not the Washington Post. This is the Washington Times. This is a right wing conservative newspaper. And this account, one devastating quote after another. Let me just read this to you. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth has lost the trust and respect of some top military commanders with his public grandstanding widely seen as unprofessional. And the personnel moves made by the former cable TV host leading to an unprecedented and dangerous exodus of talent from the Pentagon. Blah, blah, blah. Numerous high ranking officers painted Hegseth's September 30 speech to hundreds of generals and admirals gathered in Quantico as a turning point in how his leadership, style, attitude and overall competency are viewed at the upper echelons of the US Armed forces. It was a massive waste of time. If he ever had us, he lost us. One current army general told the Washington Times. Okay, it's one thing for you and I to say stuff like that or The New York Times, right, Or the MSNBC CNN access. This is the Washington fucking Times. How bad does it have to be for them to publish something that scathing?
- [15:03]
Adam Kinzinger
Incredibly bad. Not just for the Washington Times, but it's got to be incredibly bad for generals to speak, even if it's off the record or on background.
- [15:10]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [15:11]
Adam Kinzinger
Because there's a real risk. I mean, not exeth has created this paranoid culture in the Pentagon where, you know, they're putting people on lie detector tests. So if you do that, if you're a general and you're willing to go on background, you're. You're basically, you're taking a real risk there. But you're do. It's like you're this kind of cry for help to the American people. And I think also a little bit of it is maybe a message to our adversaries that they still, you know, maybe the generals still have some control because. But listen, with, with Hegseth, I knew somebody that worked for him kind of early on when he was Defense Secretary and said he was and, and confirmed he was absolutely paranoid. He particularly became paranoid after the signal gate stuff and he turned into basically a performance artist. So. Okay, let's first talk about his speech. Now I'll say this is a guy that served in the military for 22 years. We always knew that if we had a commander that came in and the first thing that commander talked about was uniforms and grooming standards, that that commander was in over their head. Now the reason we do that is because, look, when, you know, have you ever been like overwhelmed with tasks and so sometimes you just go do a very simple task because you just feel overwhelmed. Right. Maybe you pay your bills or something like that. Yes, that's what happens with command. Yeah, I do too. Math. Oh, I can only go running so many times. But he, he basically when a commander comes in and this includes hexaf and starts focusing on uniforms and saying the so trite thing we've heard 100 times in military, which is if we can't trust you to keep your uniform. Right. How can we trust you to operate a plane? Well, actually very well, because I hate keeping my uniform straight and I love operating planes. But it shows a commander that doesn't have control. And so he reverts to the thing he can control. He can control if troops are fat. He. He can control if troops wear beards. He can control if troops are wearing the right patches. And that's what you saw. And every general in that room knew, knows that by the way they they, they're well aware of that. The other thing is. Yeah, the other thing is how many times does Pete Seg. Hegseth have to, quote, unquote, work out with the troops?
- [17:31]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [17:31]
Adam Kinzinger
Doesn't he have something to do just the other day? Yeah, a couple days ago, he got a video in a fighter jet. I want to talk about this.
- [17:42]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I want to hear about the jet.
- [17:44]
Adam Kinzinger
So he put out the, the department of War and Hegseth and everybody put out this video where he's got all his fighter pilot stuff on and he's like flying this plane. And they don't say he pilots it, but they say he's in a, you know, F16 or whatever. And what they do is they don't show the pilot up front. The only video is of Pete Hugseth and it looks like he's flying the plane. And I'll tell you, I have so many MAGA blue check marks on Twitter that are like, oh, what a badass. I didn't know Pete Hegseth could fly an airplane. Whoa. So cool. And when you say. Because I've engaged a few of them, been like, you know, he was just a passenger. And by the way, in a fighter unit, the recruiters sometimes, you know, the, the brand new enlisted get a ride in the back of a fighter jet. So I'm sorry, you're not a badass. You just, you know, you went through the egress training and, and they get angry. But yeah, all he's out doing is producing content. He's not leading the. And it's, you know, look, I talked to a former defense secretary before that said if a defense secretary doesn't know what they're doing, the generals are fine with that because they can take over and control. But I think that's the situation we're in. The only concern. I know, I've run long on this. The only concern is when you have generals now resigning, like the guy overseeing Venezuela resigning, because they have a concern with that. And by the way, that general is taking a loss in retirement pay by resigning because he didn't have three years time in grade. This is a, this is a concern and a big mess. So I think real damage is being done to the Department of Defense. And you know, the only question is, is it permanent or is it just for the next three years?
- [19:29]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, it doesn't make us any safer to, to dismantle, you know, all of those centuries of experience that, you know, that you're losing when these people retire. Well, interesting that Pete Hegseth was Not flying that airplane. Like King Trump was flying the airplane on Saturday night, you know, to Kenny Loggins, you know, Danger Zone. You saw that? And so apparently, Donald Trump can. Can. Can fly without having to put the mask on so that we can actually see. See his face. And he's dumping loads of shit on fellow Americans, which. It felt like there's been a lot of symbolism lately. Haven't you felt like it's almost been.
- [20:03]
Adam Kinzinger
Yes.
- [20:03]
Charlie Sykes
It's like the showrunners are pushing a little bit too hard. Like, we get it, we get it. It's like too much on the nose. Like. Okay, so does Donald Trump really, really hate America? Yes. Is Donald Trump shitting on America? Yes, he is. He is shitting on America. Is he. Is he taking a wrecking ball to our major institutions? Yeah, let. Let's. Let's have. Let's have the. You know, as part of. Let's put into the narrative that he actually starts tearing down the East Wing of the White House. I mean, what the hell?
- [20:32]
Adam Kinzinger
Can I tell you something, Charlie? Here's the thing. Any of these things, Any of these things, any of them. Had Obama done them? Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine?
- [20:44]
Charlie Sykes
No, you can't, actually.
- [20:45]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. I mean, Joe Biden, by the way, so Hunter Biden, who we can all agree had a challenge, is he sat on a board of Ukraine, got whatever, $30,000 a month, obviously had it because of his last name. Meanwhile, the Trump kids are literally following Donald Trump in all his foreign policy stuff and setting up hotels and golf courses after him. But that's okay. You know, that's fine. He's a good boy. Eric's a good boy. I. This is what blows me away is, you know, seeing Republicans that I know, you know, Jim Jordan, for instance, every year of Obama's presidency that I served with, Jim Jordan, he was drafting articles of impeachment for something. And now you have a guy that is taking a wrecking ball to the White House, a historic building, a historical institution that made a decision. The White House is pushing, pushing back by saying, well, Obama put in a basketball court. You know, Nixon put in a bowling alley. You know, Truman gutted the White House and rebuilt it. Well, he had to, because it was not up to fire code. Putting a basketball court in is not the same as tearing down the East Wing of the White House and putting a $200 million ballroom in on top of the arc to Trump that Trump is talking about. I mean, the thing is, is for 250 years, Washington, D.C. has existed, or 200 years, whatever it is. And anytime you change the landscape of D.C. you have to understand you're changing that for hopefully a thousand years, because hopefully this country's here in a thousand years, which is why there's not a monument to every little thing. But Donald Trump is building monuments to himself of which, you know, in reality, will never come down. And. And it's. I don't know, man. I just don't know how any of these people can look at themselves in the mirror, honestly.
- [22:33]
Charlie Sykes
So as you were talking, I was sort of imagining in his final week in office that he's gonna put those big, gaudy gold letters, Trump, all the way down the Washington Monument.
- [22:45]
Adam Kinzinger
Trump. Yeah, he could.
- [22:47]
Charlie Sykes
And the question is, what elected Republican, this is a trick question, would object to him doing that? Okay, now, I need you to explain some stuff to me, okay? Now, if you or I owned a property that was on the, you know, historical preservation index, you know, historically protected property, we would have to go through a whole lot of hoops. We would have to go through a lot of stuff if we wanted to do anything. You own one of those houses, you have to talk to somebody before you put in new windows. Right. I mean, you can't. Can't do anything. So what is more historical than the. Should be historically protected than the White House? Does Donald Trump really not have to talk to anyone? Congress has no role. There's no commission, there's no oversight. There's no. He just wakes up one morning and he says, take it out.
- [23:40]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. I mean, this. This relies on Congress, you know, basically going and declaring their power. So if this was so, let's say the Democrats were actually in charge of Congress right now.
- [23:53]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [23:54]
Adam Kinzinger
And Donald Trump just took a wrecking ball. You know, they would obviously go to people's house. Yes, to the people's house. That's the thing that's like, it's not Donald Trump's house. He's renting it, Right?
- [24:05]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [24:05]
Adam Kinzinger
And. And so, you know, Congress could then go to the courts, the courts would send a court order, and then you would have to go through the process of Congress agreeing to pay for, you know, these renovations, because he can say he's raising the money privately, but there is a cost associated with everything. And, you know, you mentioned about this story. I had a buddy that lived in a apartment building in downtown Milwaukee that was one of the old breweries, and it was freezing in his apartment all the time. So that was when I was a pilot there, because you could only have single pane windows. You couldn't even put in double pane windows that looked the same because they were not historically accurate. And this dude makes a decision to tear down part of the White House. It's egregious.
- [24:47]
Charlie Sykes
No. And it is. And it is the. The arrogance of it. But just go back to this concept that we called it the People's House. Every president before Trump understood that this was not their house. This was not Mar A Lago North. This was a place that they were temporarily in residence. Now, they could make improvements, but they would have to have a due respect. And the architecture of Washington, D.C. i think, was designed to have that classical simplicity that we didn't have. The palace of Versailles in Washington, D.C. it was really intended to be more of the classical republic. Obviously, Donald Trump doesn't understand that and doesn't care about any of that. But it is interesting how sensitive he is about this particular issue. Even, you know, despite the bravado that they put out that memo telling people who work at the Treasury Department, don't take pictures of that. We don't want any pictures of that.
- [25:42]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah.
- [25:42]
Charlie Sykes
Because the Treasury Department's right next door. Now, the other thing is, and I did this in my newsletter today, I named names. Who's paying direct? The White House, because this gaudy $250 million ballroom that nobody really really wants, except for Donald Trump is being paid for by, you know, the, you know, his grifty shakedowns. Right. You know, the corporations were paying him tribute. Now, I'm guessing that most of them figured, hey, you know, we're just going to buy this, a way to buy off Donald Trump. You know, we'll get influence, we get protection, we get a little bit of safety. Maybe a handful of them thought they were making some great civic contribution to the betterment of Washington, D.C. well, now their names are all attached to the insidification of the White House. I mean, if there's one of those moments where you go, okay, where does all that energy from? No kings go? Maybe reminding some of these corporations, we know you're afraid of Donald Trump. But, you know, maybe you ought to be paying attention to your customer base, your client base, the people out there, because they actually represent a majority of the people in this country right now.
- [26:51]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. After we, after we do this, I'm going to go find where you put that down and try to expand that, or, I mean, put a megaphone behind it, because I think that's important. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is you've got to. I think you have to make it Aware. You have to make people aware that there's a push and pull here. And, you know, it's a same thing like with what the governor of California did with his universities. You know, Trump threatens the universities and Newsom says, well, look, there's. I'm going to pull your state funding if you do it. So now you actually have a decision to make. It's not that. It's just you only have one choice here. Yep. It's balanced, and that's what you have to do. And. But I'll tell you, it's. It's. I do kind of wonder if, And I've said this 578 times, so take that into account, but I do kind of wonder if him taking a wrecking ball to the White House is not enough of. Is not good symbolism for people to have to see that and be like, what the hell? Like, you know, that is a guy who's a little out of control. What the hell? And it may be there may be a group of people. I mean, just like with this, you know, he's talked about buying Argentina beef. It may be enough people that see that that are like, wow, that guy really is insane. Now, it's not going to be 90% of MAGA, let's be clear. But if you peel off groups of people, that's what's important. And by the way, for the Pro Democracy Coalition, I can't tell you, Charlie, how many times I've seen, you know, somebody say, okay, I saw this recently. Somebody said, I'm out. You're gonna buy Argentinian beef. I was a big MAGA guy. I'm out. And the comments are filled with, you son of a. We told you, you know, no, we've got to walk people.
- [28:30]
Charlie Sykes
Right, Right.
- [28:32]
Adam Kinzinger
We. If we do want to win, you're gonna have to welcome people that were MAGA supporters. I'm sorry.
- [28:37]
Charlie Sykes
You know, you made this point actually sort of the reverse of it a couple of months ago when you were on this podcast when you said, you know, people ought to understand that Donald Trump's superpower is his willingness to forgive and forget. That if you walked in, if you went into the Oval Office, said, I AM really sorry, Mr. President, you know, I think you are the best. You know, they would bring you back in. So this is. This is kind of a lame. Humiliate you on the way. But this is. This is. They've been willing to do that. I think the resistance has to. As, as, as well. So. So. But they've been stacking up these, These. I Don't know what you want to call them. Sort of the coins of absurdity. I mean, you have, you know, you know, tearing down the White House the day after he, you know, metaphorically, although graphically, shits upon fellow Americans. And then when the white. When the government is shut down and inflation is surging, he bails out Argentina and as part of that bailout, says, we're gonna buy Argentinian beef. And all the beef farmers in this country are saying, have you not fucked with us enough?
- [29:43]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I mean, seriously.
- [29:45]
Charlie Sykes
And it's just like one after another now. Look, you and I both know there's a contingent of MAGA that is just not gonna budge. They will never budge. They will never move. But I don't know, I'm looking at these polls that would certainly suggest that when people say he's. He's abusing his power as president, he's acting like a tyrant, he's acting like a dictator. You have a majority of Americans that are going, yeah, we're kind of worried about that.
- [30:10]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, that's the thing. And it's. I saw some polling today which actually is like, he's now losing young people again. He's losing all these different things. And it's like we have this feeling that it's this unstoppable steam train right now.
- [30:24]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [30:24]
Adam Kinzinger
I think the reality of MAGA is it's. Yeah, it's a steam train, but I think the. The conductors on his last, you know, shovel of coal to throw in there is what it feel like. And so, you know, you've got these little groups of people. So again, beef farmers are, I think probably a lot of them are driven still by culture war issues more than anything. So they're not going to budge. They're going to be pissed, but they're not going, bud. But there are some that will. And all this is compiling into. You know, where do we actually see this come to fruition? We see this next November. Right. If the Democrats win the House and then we see it in three years, you know, that's where we sometimes see.
- [31:02]
Charlie Sykes
It next month, too. I mean, we'll see it in New York.
- [31:04]
Adam Kinzinger
Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right.
- [31:05]
Charlie Sykes
Virginia. I mean, that's going to.
- [31:06]
Adam Kinzinger
That's right. Yeah, it will. And hopefully those races go well because that will be momentum or deflationary in terms of that. But, yeah, I think. I think you're 100% right. The other thing, you know, I. This, because it's just so stupid. Keep in mind, the treasury is talking about a $1 Donald Trump coin. Even though it's against the law to put living presidents on a coin they're very serious about for the 250th anniversary Donald Trump coin.
- [31:34]
Charlie Sykes
Of course they're, of course they're going to do that. You know, going to go back to your point about the push pull, you know, that, that you have to have counter, a counterweight. And, you know, there have been so many, I don't know, discouraging things. There have been so many capitulations. Just take a moment, though, to think about what happened with Disney and Jimmy Kimmel. You know, some people may think that this is, this is trivial or this is, this is popular culture. I really think you need to focus on all of that. So the people who run Disney and ABC are terrified of making Donald Trump mad. They're afraid of the fcc. Right. And so what do they do? They do what so many other institutions have done. You know, they say, well, let's get rid of Jimmy Kimmel. We'll give you Jimmy Kimmel's head on a platter, and then you will make nice with us. Right. What happens? Well, it looks now as if literally millions of people, customers, you know, said, you know, screw that. They canceled their Disney plus subscriptions. They canceled their Hulu subscriptions. And really, there was economic pain there. I mean, there's a model here that, you know, in Trump's world, that opposition has become invisible and impotent. And what happened with no kings. And I think the blowback to the Jimmy Kimmel thing was, wait, wait, wait, there's a real price to be paid for all of this. And if you watch Jimmy Kimmel lately.
- [32:57]
Adam Kinzinger
This guy, yeah, he's been even, he's been just as good and better.
- [33:01]
Charlie Sykes
He is holding nothing back. I watch this and I go, I'm trying to imagine the conversations that he had that the Disney people, okay, you can do this. But, but, like, don't go too far. I mean, like, be a little bit restrained. And Jimmy Kimmel's like, yeah, I'm going to take it up to 100, and then I'm going to dial it up to 115.
- [33:18]
Adam Kinzinger
You know, he's like, Trump after the first impeachment.
- [33:21]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, it is. It's like you've been shot at without effect. So I don't know if you saw when he had, you know, he's going, RFK Jr stuff is really something where, you know, he's, you know, chewing off baby's foreskins. You know, I mean, it's just, it's like okay. It's like, this is not the dialed down version of Jimmy Kimmel. So the pushback works. And I think that once people remember they have that kind of a power, that's going to change the dynamic a little.
- [33:48]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. And I, it's important for us to celebrate these things because I, I, you know, you could ask as much as I do, like, what can I do? What can I do? Right? And it's like, yeah, I guess you could tweet more. I mean, you know, even though it doesn't make a difference, but the reality is this. The best thing you can do for your country is go to the no Kings rally. That's great. But also, just don't lose hope. Because every time you don't lose hope, like, that's a victory for us because they get entered, they're energized by this chaos. So if we can stay engaged, that's how you win. Because we have the numbers right now. And. But there is a feeling, because we've never seen a president like this that just kind of bowls over norms, and we've never seen a Congress that let it happen. So it is this feeling like, I mean, honestly, it feels like Battle of the Bulge, right? I mean, my grandpa was part of that. And I'm sure that he. There were times during the Battle of the Bulge where he's like, the Germans are going to overrun us. Well, yes, they didn't. And it ended up being the thing that cost them everything. And then we were able to move into Germany after that. But at the time, it certainly felt like Hitler had, you know, mustered all his forces and we were going to be pushed off like a Dunkirk. So I think it's an important thing to remember.
- [34:59]
Charlie Sykes
One of my favorite stories out of the Battle of the Bulge, remember when the German commander actually, you know, when the American forces were surrounded at Bastogne, he sent him a message saying, you should surrender. And what was the general's name? I'm not having a. Yeah, he wrote back. And he. Just one word. Nuts. See, that's the response. Nuts. And we know, we know how that turned out.
- [35:18]
Adam Kinzinger
And that, by the way, rallied the American troops. That, that was, that went like fire through the Allied lines and actually rallied the troops to push back.
- [35:26]
Charlie Sykes
You know, and I think that that should be our message as well, is, Is. Is nuts. No, people have asked me about no Kings. And I said, look, it's obviously necessary. It's not sufficient. It doesn't move the needle necessarily. It has to lead to something. But it was really, really really important for people to turn out. I know you agree with this Turn out and look around and realize we're not alone. And I was. I have to say, I was very impressed at how peaceful it was, how clever it was, how in fact, they. That. What a dramatic refutation of all of the smears from Mike Johnson and from the Trump administration. I mean, you know, there were not a lot of Palestinian flags and a lot of Mexican flags. People not behaving badly. Donald Trump, whether I want to say overtly or implicitly, Donald Trump wanted that to turn violent. In Donald Trump's movie version of all of this, it's all carnage, it's violence. It's why they wanted to bring in, you know, the National Guard. And no Kings didn't do it. But the real importance was to let people know that, hey, you have agency and you're not alone, and maybe look at your neighbors. And so this thing is not hopeless. I mean, isn't that the. And that has real value?
- [36:35]
Adam Kinzinger
I think so. And I didn't go to the one here where I live in the Woodlands, Texas, and this is a very Republican area. It's not super duper maga. It's kind of like old school Republican, but they're still voting that way. But there was really good turnout here in the Woodlands, Texas, for no Kings. And that heartened me because, you know, look, God's honest truth, Charlie, I've never had anybody confront me in public for even a MAGA person. It's crazy, right? But, yeah, it's, it's. Can't explain it. But, you know, I know when I'm out, you know, at Ace Hardware or whatever, that there's people in there that recognize me, that probably hate me, but don't want to come up and say anything. And so you get this feeling sometimes that you're surrounded, right? In reality, there's a ton of people that feel just like you. I mean, the fact that, you know, we have 350 million people in this country and at any given time, probably 200 million are on your side is a huge deal. I mean, granted, a ton of them actually don't pay attention, but, you know, that's, that's, that's a huge deal. And it's important for us to remember at a time. What worries me though, Charlie, and this is why your podcast and substack in general is so important, is we are seeing this consolidation of information under the right wing umbrella that is extremely frightening. You know, the Larry Ellison now buying TikTok for about a tenth of what it's worth. Which makes you wonder what China's getting out of it. You know, potentially, potentially, my company, cnn, is up for sale. It is. You know, this is where independent media, like what you're doing, is going to be really important.
- [38:11]
Charlie Sykes
No, I'm glad you mentioned that because I do think that this, this is a moment where independent media becomes more important than ever. This is not just self pleading here, it's that, look, I mean, we have had a masterclass and what can go wrong with corporate media? What can go happen? The kinds of pressures. The good news is that the splintering of the media that has had so many dark consequences can also mean that there are homes for people like you and I to be able. Without any bosses, there are no kings, there are no. And I, I'm, I am absolutely loving it. Okay, so in the few minutes we have left, so much for Donald Trump's pivot on Ukraine. You know, all of that talk that he was going to back up Ukraine, that, that fell apart pretty quickly. Vladimir Putin played him once again, continues to play him. But then something kind of odd has happened. I wanted to get your take on all of this. They scheduled this. He, you know, Trump was, was conned into having another summit, but this time in Budapest with their fellow wannabe autocrat Viktor Orban, who has cut Ukraine's tires at every possible occasion. And yet now it's called off because apparently the Russians are saying, yeah, we're not agreeing to this ceasefire deal with Donald Trump. So everybody's mad at everybody. So at least the Munich 3.3.0 is not going to take place. But give me your sense of where we're at on all of that. You know what Trump is going to do, whether Ukraine can survive this kind of vacillation.
- [39:46]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, look, I think first off, it's probably the best thing that can happen for Ukraine. Is Donald Trump losing interest? I think that is the best thing because, you know, his, what he's doing every time he backs away from his two weeks or doesn't do what he says, he's actually emboldening Putin to think he can win. He's emboldening the Russian troops who are absolutely getting just wasted on the battlefield. And so that the best thing he can do is be like, I'm done, I'm out. I mean, actually the real best thing would be to give tomahawks. I just don't think he's ever going to do it. Donald Trump, at the depth of himself, is a coward. He really is. And he admires Vladimir Putin, which is why, deeply, it takes all of Europe and Zelensky, multiple meetings to get Donald Trump to a certain point that literally, Vladimir Putin could phone in and then get Donald Trump back to where he was, to where he's screaming at Zelensky, according to the Financial Times.
- [40:43]
Charlie Sykes
What happened?
- [40:43]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, yeah, he's screaming at him again. He can't win, even though, what, two weeks ago, he's like, ukraine can win. So, look, here's the deal. Ukraine is actually pretty good defending itself. Now, all of their drones they make themselves, they're actually the number one drone producer, and they are going to end up being a very important part of European defense when this war is over. They're the largest standing army in Europe right now. Third largest, fourth largest in the world. And so they're making all their own drones. 50% of their actual munitions, they're making on their own. Now, at the beginning of the war, that was 10% or something like that. We were able to wash through all the old Soviet crap in Eastern Europe through Ukraine. So now Eastern Europe is on NATO standard equipment, which was going to take 20 years. And. And, And Russia is basically at the cost of a thousand men or 2000 men, able to take a square kilometer of a country that's like 300,000 square kilometers. And so Ukraine is going to win this war if we do not stand in the way. That's the big key. And we allow. And the other two big things are if Donald Trump, to his credit, he's allowing this, continues to allow intel sharing with Ukraine, that's important, and continues to allow weapons sales by Europe. Now, here's an idea I have.
- [42:06]
Charlie Sykes
Charlie. Yeah.
- [42:07]
Adam Kinzinger
I want to hear, which is 230 to 50 billion dollars of Russian assets are frozen in Western and US banks. Vast majority of this is in Europe. Okay. And so far, they have allowed some of the interest off that money to go to Ukraine. So a little bit. But for three years, they've been talking about what to do with that money. My idea is this. If Donald Trump really wanted to end this war, he tells Vladimir Putin, I have $250 billion of yours. Every day, I'm going to release $2 billion of that. It'll be managed by a trust fund with the G7. That money will go to Ukraine to pay soldiers to rebuild infrastructure and to buy weapons. Every day they get $2 billion until either that fund is exhausted in 120 days or until you declare a ceasefire. And when you declare a ceasefire, we quit spending that money. In theory, the rest is yours. If we come to peace. But if you resume the war, $2 billion. So what is Vladimir Putin now having to take into account? Not just that he's losing 1,000 men a day, but he's now also building his enemy up by $2 billion a day of his own money. Those are the kinds of ways we have to think in the 21st century outside of the box, to compel peace, I think.
- [43:23]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, I really like that. And the weird thing about it is you can sort of imagine how that might appeal to Trump's transactional mind, you know, to put it in those monetary terms. Of course, the question is getting Vladimir Putin to believe that Trump will follow through on this and not chicken out. But, yeah, this has been a frustration, I think, for the last several years. You know, what are we gonna do with those frozen Russian assets? At what point are we going to tap into them and make them pay a real tangible price for all that? I love that idea. And again, you have to have that push, pull, you know, increase the pain on Vladimir Putin beyond, obviously, the pain of losing thousands of men and having the kind of, you know, human desolation that he's had is not bothering him, is not enough. Maybe going after some of his resources might do that. Few more oligarchs lose their yachts might actually get their attention. Who knows?
- [44:18]
Adam Kinzinger
That's right. That's right. That's what you have to do.
- [44:20]
Charlie Sykes
All right, on that note, having come up with the solution that will win you the Nobel Peace Prize winner's adopt, by the way, wouldn't that be the ultimate troll?
- [44:32]
Adam Kinzinger
Oh, my God, I love it. Hey, if you're listening, just. I don't even want the Nobel Prize, but please nominate me, so I get it. Just so it pisses Trump off. Do it.
- [44:42]
Charlie Sykes
And we have. We have lots of Norwegian readers and listeners, so pass that word along. Hey, and thank you all for watching this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. Keep doing this. And it feels like this week, once again, in case you had forgotten, we are not the crazy ones.
- [44:59]
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- [45:12]
Adam Kinzinger
It's third down.
- [45:15]
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