← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Adam Kinzinger: Trump's Weakness Abroad, Corruption at Home
00:41:22
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- [00:00]
Adam Kinzinger
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Charlie Sykes
Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I am Charlie Sides, joined once again by my good friend Adam Kinzinger. Good morning, Adam.
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Adam Kinzinger
Hey, good morning. Good to be with you.
- [00:20]
Charlie Sykes
We talked on Friday about the arrest of the Wisconsin judge. But let's switch gears here because you know my favorite quote of the week. And let's just start with this. Donald Trump, President of the United States, the holder of the office that used to be the leader of the free world, is apparently getting kind of frustrated that his good buddy Vladimir Putin is not going along with him and put out a statement in which he said, vladimir, stop, stop all in caps as Vladimir Putin rained death upon Ukraine. And as I tweeted out, I mean, who among us can forget that great moment from 1940 when Franklin Delano Roosevelt wrote, stop, Adolf, please stop. So your thought, I mean, it seemed pathetic, but it comes at a moment when all of the signals are that Donald Trump is about to completely betray Ukraine. He is channeling Putin's, he's channeling Putin's propaganda. And yet Vladimir Putin seems rather clearly to be, I'm sorry to say this on a Sunday morning, Vladimir Putin is grabbing Trump by the pussy here, isn't he?
- [01:29]
Adam Kinzinger
He is, yep, he is. Look, it's, I, I think, look, here's the reality of this. I so don't, I mean, okay, Donald Trump as president, United States could be the biggest dog in the fight, right? Could. If Donald Trump had made the decision, he could determine actually what happens in Ukraine and Russia instead, what he did, because he's such a master negotiator, right, that he basically surrenders immediately. I mean, all you have to do is look at even Iran and they're saying whatever he's negotiating in Iran is worse than the JCPOA he pulled out of. So he's given a deal, he's basically put forward a deal that gives Russia everything it's asked for. And now he's trying to convince Ukraine. And in that process, you know, Putin fires these missiles into Ukraine. And by the way, I want to make it clear, why did these missiles get through? Because the US has stopped supplying the interceptors from the Patriot missile system that Ukraine needs to defend against ballistic missile attacks. They have smaller anti aircraft guns that can shoot down things like the drones or whatever, but these ballistic missiles, only the US Patriot system and our allies have basically given them all their interceptors. We're the only ones really with stockpiles left besides like Saudi Arabia and stuff. And so they're running out of those missiles. So civilians, children, kids are Dying. And so in that process, Donald Trump, who, for whatever reason loves Russia, I don't know if he's compromised. I don't know if he just loves Vladimir Putin. You know, whatever it is, to me, it's almost irrelevant. Is now being embarrassed. And the best he can muster is please stop. And by the way, even after that, Charlie was. Even after that, it's so pathetic. And even after that, he still cannot say that Vladimir Putin has done a bad thing or that he has even invaded Ukraine. The best he can muster is stop. Now, I'm on a group of people that are like former intel folks and everything. We talk about this stuff and it's a signal chat, but nothing, nothing classified. But we, you know, one of the things we say on there is like, this guy is just, he's gotten everything that Vladimir Putin was. He's given Vladimir Putin everything he wants, and still Putin knows how to play him. And it's really unbelievable.
- [03:44]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, he's moved past appeasement to complete surrender and betrayal. I mean, he put out a tweet last week that just simply could have been written by the Kremlin. I mean, he's surrendering Crimea. And this morning there were reports. I mean, Friday morning there were reports that he's going to lift the sanctions on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. And again, the. The way that Donald Trump caves in without getting anything in return is mind blowing for somebody that claims to be the art of the deal. And of course, it continues to be a mystery why he cannot stand up to Vladimir Putin. But why do you think that? Why do you think. Okay, I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [04:19]
Adam Kinzinger
I was gonna say two points to that. Is first off, on Crimea. Well, okay, you and I, you know, you and I are Ronald Reagan fans. Remember his speech to Goldwater where he said. Or at the Goldwater Convention where he said we could have peace and we can have it this next second. So surrender.
- [04:32]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, right.
- [04:33]
Adam Kinzinger
That's always stuck with me, like, yes, you can have peace by getting. Getting on your knees, period. That's what Donald Trump. That's the kind of peace Donald Trump is fighting for on the issue of Crimea. And here's the problem is it gets deep into diplomatic weeds. And so the vast majority of Americans, no offense, don't really have any interest in this. What we are offering to Vladimir Putin is something called du jour recognition versus de facto recognition. De facto recognition is like, look, the fact is Russia occupies Crimea right now, right? Du jour is the United States now considers it a point of law. That Russia controls Crimea. And if you think back legitimately.
- [05:16]
Charlie Sykes
Legitimately.
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Adam Kinzinger
Legitimately. Legitimately. And if you think back Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, the entire time they were under Soviet occupation, the United States never du jour recognized that. And that was the reason that in the 90s, when the Soviet Union fell, they were able to become vibrant, independent countries.
- [05:35]
Charlie Sykes
This is a really important point because that would have been a huge betrayal of those countries if we had recognized the legitimacy of the Russian takeover. So I guess the question I was going to ask you, though, is given the way that he is surrendering and appeasing, why is Vladimir Putin going out of his way to humiliate him so publicly? There's no other way. I mean, every. It's, it's really striking to me. You, you watch everybody else, not everybody else, but obviously you've had this parade of people capitulating to Donald Trump, bowing, bending the knee to Donald Trump, the billionaires, the media, all of these folks. And yet Vladimir Putin seems like the only guy to understand that if you just punch him back in the face, you get everything you want. But he's getting everything he wants and he's still humiliating him.
- [06:23]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I think it's a couple of. It's a couple of interesting things. So first off, Vladimir Putin, by doing this is, I think, subtly trying to convince us, the Western world, maybe even Trump. But I say us, even like you and me, Charlie, that Russia still has no interest in peace because it has a chance of taking over all of Ukraine. Now, I want to be clear about something. This is not true. Russia is completely out of offensive combat power. They. They base. And I'm not, I'm not even lying about this. They're attacking with donkeys now. They're attacking with, like, those little E scooters you see, because they've run out of Even World War II stuff that they had in storage. So what Vladimir Putin knows is two things. Number one, he knows that the Ukrainians aren't going to break through his line anytime soon, but he also knows he's not going to break through Ukrainian lines. But if he pretends like he doesn't have any need for peace, the assumed assumption is, well, that's because he can still win. Well, he can't.
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Charlie Sykes
Right? He's still strong, but.
- [07:19]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, yes, he's still strong. And so that will give him a stronger position. The other thing, and I think this is most important, Russia still considers us the enemy. We may consider Russia our best friends now under the Trump administration, we may be really excited about the economic opportunities For a country the size of one third of the economy of Germany that we may be excited about. But the reality is, to the Russians, we're still the enemy. To Vladimir Putin, we are still the Great Satan, you know, from his perspective. And if he can humiliate us at a point when Donald Trump is on his knees, I mean, it's like watching a gangster movie. You know, guy comes down and he begs the dom for. For, you know, forgiveness, and he still slaps him in the face. Right? That's the ultimate humiliation. And that's what's happening right now. Look, I think.
- [08:04]
Charlie Sykes
Yep.
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Adam Kinzinger
I say, I think Putin is. Is dumb in his decision to attack Ukraine. He was dumb in the tactics, but. But he's brilliant in how to play.
- [08:11]
Charlie Sykes
People well, you know, and this is really the dangerous thing for Donald Trump because Donald Trump's entire Persona is based on being the strong man, right? You know, exuding strength, that he is the winner, and Vladimir Putin is taking that away from him. And as you know, that even as this is playing out, as he, as Vladimir Putin is exposing the weakness of Donald Trump, Donald Trump obviously is contributing with the please stop Vladimir, which is one of the most unrealization ever. I mean, classic. The world is watching, and President Xi in China, who is engaged in this game of global chicken with Donald Trump, is also watching. And Donald Trump desperately needs China to blink. He desperately needs China to give him a win. And I wonder how that dynamic plays out as well, because you know that there is kind of an axis between China and Russia. And the weaker that Trump looks on Ukraine, the weaker his hand is on global trade, which, again, you can be weak in one area. But, you know, the big political problem for Donald Trump right now is the economy. If the economy and the markets turn against him, he's in trouble. And China is the key to that, isn't it? So, again, looking weak is deadly for Donald Trump.
- [09:33]
Adam Kinzinger
It is. And so it's interesting. Ukraine, a couple days ago, came out with information that proves that China is actually helping to arm Russia. Have you heard anything from the Trump administration about it? Nope. Nope. Not even a condemnation that I've seen. But there's two big issues with this. So, number one, you know, the. The assumption is that if China attacks Taiwan, it's going to happen in four, maybe five years. Well, what you can understand now is if China really is determined to take Taiwan and they're trying to figure out the best timing, I mean, look, if I'm President Xi, I'm going to actually speed up my timeline to do it under the Trump administration. Because, look, let's look back beyond even this first administration, when he was in power the first time. Do you remember when he was talking about fire and fury with North Korea? And then what? Then he was North Korea's best friend and this administration bestie in this administration. We had all this build up just a month ago for a supposed Iranian strike that we were going to do, and now all of a sudden, we're engaged in a worse than JCPOA negotiation. Donald Trump. This is what people don't understand. He tweets in all caps. I get it. He's loud, but he's a sissy, he's a coward, he's weak. And I don't think anybody should, you know, celebrate the use of the. He knows this, he knows it. And nobody should celebrate the use of the military or be, like, excited to use it. But being willing to use it is, I think, an essential prerequisite to be President of the United States. And I think Donald Trump is simply unwilling. And the last thing I'll say on the China stuff. So when we decided to take on China with these tariffs, obviously, you know, if you were in kindergarten, if you were teaching this to a third grade economics class, they would all get together and come up with a solution. And that solution would be very easy. Let's get our allies and all of us together, go after China, right? I mean, literally a third grade class, 99% of them would agree on this. Instead, we took on the entire world and China. And so what's happened? China's like, oh, this is great for us. By the way, only 20% of their trade now is with the United States compared to the rest of the world. And so, yeah, it's gonna have a hit, but just not. Not a huge hit. Now they can build relationships with Europe, with Africa, which is massive, that they're building relationships with and Donald Trump. This is the pathetic thing. Charlie, you talk about the. Please, Vladimir, stop. I think this is almost as. Or more pathetic is the fact that they are. He's talking about how China's about to back down. And. And China is putting out tweets saying, we're not even negotiating. We haven't even. We're refusing to negotiate. And Donald Trump's like, they're about to back down. And China's like, we haven't even had a conversation with you. We refuse to talk about this. I mean, I'm not rooting for China, but in that case, I'm like, wow, they're eating his lunch on The PR side of things.
- [12:17]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, and this is, this is related to it, but one of the other storylines of the week obviously was he seemed like he was blinking. From a while on China, they put out the word that they were going to de. Escalate with China. As you point out, China's going, you know, you know, you know, we haven't got any calls from you, but we're also seeing this new economy playing out. And I've described it as, you've heard me say this, you know, an economy of whim. You know, the President of the United States, you know, changes his mind and apparently maybe we've become numb to the open corruption of all of this. The reports of the insider trading that they tell the Wall street insiders, you know, whisper, whisper, whisper, we're going to, we're going to back off on those China tariffs. And, you know, they rush into the stock market, the stock market explodes, goes up. I mean, Donald Trump right now has the power to move the mark trillions of dollars with a simple social media post. This was not the way the framers drew it up and it's not the way the business community thought it would be. They thought that he was going to be the most pro business president in American history. And right now they're starting to realize, you know, we are paying this massive uncertainty tax. We don't know whether the markets are going to go up, are going to go down, whether it's going to be Besant in the news or whether it's going to be Howard Lutnick or whatever. The confusion is now become just the reality of the Trump economy, of Trumponomics.
- [13:42]
Adam Kinzinger
Look, I, so I'm going to give some, some insider stuff from, from, from Congress, right? Like, you know, we, whenever we traded stocks, unless it was in like just a big mutual fund or whatever, if I traded individual stocks and I ever traded over a thousand dollars, I had to report it within like three days. I had to put it on public stuff. And so, you know, if I would play with a little Robin Hood day trading, I'm always having to report that. And everybody's watching. And, oh, Adam invested in a defense stock and he's on the Foreign Affairs Committee, right. I'm like, well, I invested a thousand bucks in it. But sure, this is as open of corruption as possible. I mean, we could get into the crypto stuff that will take an entire hour to talk about and the level of corruption. But by the way, I'm, I'm starting to refer to them as the Trump crime family. And, but on the stock market, look, I. Charlie, all I've been doing is taking a little bit of money. I put it into Robin Hood, and I'm basically going against whatever the market's doing every day.
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Charlie Sykes
And.
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Adam Kinzinger
And I'm making 15% every time I sell, right? American Airlines is down. I buy it, I'll sell it. When Donald Trump says the tariffs are going down. So it makes me a little money, 150 bucks, maybe, because I'm not playing with much. But if you're out there with $6 million and you're playing this kind of money, you're walking away. Every time Donald Trump manipulates the market, you're walking away with 650,000 more dollars. And that's just 10%. I've made 20% on some of these stocks in two days. This is corruption at the highest level. And the sad thing is, I mean, I get it. If I'm a gajillionaire and Donald Trump's giving me inside information, fine, I'm going to play with that. But the problem is all these people that have put their trust in Donald Trump are the ones that are being taken to the bank because they're the ones that are selling the stock when it's down. They're the ones that are buying the stock when it's up. It's their money that's going to these hedge fund managers. Money's not created with this stuff. And Donald Trump and his family is so corrupt in this that they don't give a rat's ass. And I mean that. I honestly think that they will go down in history. Trump will be a curse word never to be uttered in polite company in the future.
- [15:44]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, I hope that Trump is a word like, the word like quisling has become a word, you know, the worst trader in Norwegian history. But the level of corruption is so far off the charts that it feels like, again, we've been numb to it. It's like the crypto story. And I would want to put a, you know, underlining of that. This story in and of itself would be, you know, we could devote hours to it where he says, I'm having dinner with the people that are buying my bullshit crypto. And the value of Trump bucks, you know, skyrockets. It's a way of putting money directly into his pocket. And there's no subtlety about it on the insider trading. I'm not an expert in this, but didn't this used to be illegal? Didn't people like Martha Stewart go to jail for stuff like this where, where if somebody whispers, hey, some, there's an announcement going to be made by this pharmaceutical company you ought to buy, and it goes up the next day and people find out about it, the regulators find out about it, you're in a lot of trouble. And yet Trump right now is doing it on this massive scale. I mean, maybe the principle is if you do it and you only make millions, it's a crime, but if it's trillions, it's trumponomics.
- [16:52]
Adam Kinzinger
That's right. That's right. And he, you know, it's funny because like with Martha Stewart, you know. Yes. You get the company that whispers something to you, you make a decision on the basis of that. Remember when Nancy Pelosi bought healthcare stocks, when she started to believe maybe they would pass the healthcare bill and then that was considered, oh, so horrible. Yeah. They freaked out. This is even way different than that. And here's the thing is we don't have the mechanism to deal with it because we never assumed there would be a president to do anything like this. I mean, I never even, never even hit me. Let me hit you with one other thing, Charlie, that's kind of interesting. I've played a little bit on Kalshee, which is like the political betting thing. You know, you can go on and be like, you know, is Trump's first guy going to leave by May? Or, you know, whatever. This is just fun little stuff you throw 50 bucks on. You always lose. I always lose. But if you're, you know, Donald Trump Jr. I think is on the board of Kalsha. So all of a sudden you start looking and there's a bet that says, will Donald Trump announce a reduction in tariffs by the end of April? And you have all these people betting on it. Or, you know, I mean, I've even seen like US Senators. Will, will there be a US Senator to visit. One of them is, will there be a U.S. senator to visit Syria before May or before June? And if you bet yes, 100 bucks, it pays 1,000 if it actually happens. Now imagine if you're a US senator and you're looking at that. I mean, you don't have to say your name when you're betting on this. It's easy money. Easy money. I'd put, if I was a corrupt U.S. senator, I mean, by the way, that go into Syria, one is a real bet that's on there. And I was looking at it this morning. I would put $1,000 on it. If I was a US senator and corrupt announce I'm going To Syria, go to Syria, come home to $10,000. That's the kind of stuff that's out there right now, by the way. And there was a whole bunch of money that went in and out of ki on the issue of, okay, all these different countries, are there going to be tariffs announced on them? When the president announces tariffs? If you believe Donald Trump Jr. Who's on the board of Kalshi, is not aware of those bets and doesn't get advanced knowledge of what his dad's going to announce.
- [18:56]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, yeah, then you're wrong.
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Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, Another thing.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah. And by the way, speaking of the lack of people's lack of imagination about what can happen and what is going on, you saw that Trump, whatever, the Trump Organization is now marketing a Trump 2028 hat. You know, I'm telling you guys, he's going to do it, he's going to try to do it, and nobody in the Republican Party is going to push back. You know, I was kind of wondering about this. You know, you just sort of wonder what happened to various people. You know, you wonder what happened to libertarians, you wonder what happened to Christians. You wonder what happened, you know, in all these stories, what, whatever happened to Congress. You know, we were, you and I were on a, on a forum the other night about this, by the way, right before we started this, I was walking my dog, went and got the mail. And this, for people who are watching this on YouTube, this was in my mailbox from my Congressman.
- [19:48]
Adam Kinzinger
Friggin. Glenn.
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Charlie Sykes
Glenn. Glenn Grossman, who is. I am advancing President Trump's America first agenda like I am a fucking potted plant. I am joined at the hip.
- [20:01]
Adam Kinzinger
And by the way, paid for at US Taxpayer expense. If you look at the bottom, it probably says paid for with US Taxpayer dollars.
- [20:08]
Charlie Sykes
Look, I'm holding it up. I missed that. It is. Yep, That's a federal United States Congress House of Representative public document, official business, paid for by the official funds authorized by the House of Representatives. And this is how Glenn Grothman, my Congressman, is spending your fucking tax dollars. Okay, I guess, you know, some of these stories seem so old, but it is remarkable how Congress has just recused itself from any role in all of these major issues. The Founding Fathers put the powers of Congress in Article 1. I know everybody's heard this, but it's still amazing. They simply assumed that the various branches of government would be jealous of their own power, would not surrender their own power. And yet you have the House of Representatives, which basically on, every, every time you hear from Mike Johnson, it says, yes, sir, I am going to be a rubber stamp for the President. You have my congressman using tax dollars to say, yeah, you know, I am, I'm Donald Trump's toady. What is the deal? They only have a small majority, but Congress is just simply not a player anymore, it feels like.
- [21:23]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. And by the way, for if you guys didn't notice, Glenn and the president have the exact same tie on in that picture too, which is so pathetic. And so I, yeah, I mean, look, it's, it's, I don't understand this either, Charlie, because, look, one of the things I loved about Congress, I mean, look, there were some really hard parts right when you were getting, I would, I wasn't one that loved to get in the weeds on policy, but, you know, you're sitting there all night drinking beer, having pizza, trying to get in the whim into the weeds on policy with your Democrats. But that is like the heart of what this is. You know, if you could take a time machine 230 years back to, you know, Continental Congress or however long ago and watch the dude sitting in the pub getting hammered, but coming up with, you know, the Constitution, really, I mean, that's just how it's done. And unfortunately, I think what's happened is we've started to elect celebrities to the House. You know, people that wanted that use it as a quick way to go and be famous. You can't go and be famous in Hollywood very easily, but you really can in Congress if you want to. So I think we started electing celebrities who were less interested in making people upset by compromising and more interested in messaging. And I don't know if that's the majority of members of the House, but I think that's the culture that overtook. And then of course, you have somebody like Donald Trump that comes along and I mean, Barack Obama did this when he talked about his pen and paper, I think w less so. But, you know, you end up in this thing of where presidents are like, finally, we'll get it done. I'm going to run on the fact that I'm going to get it done. And Congress just went to sleep. And I think, honestly, it's even worse. I think we've actually forgotten how to be article one, to be honest with you. I mean, if, if you have a president that says, hey, guys, I'll sign what you send to me if it's bipartisan, otherwise, go get at it. I don't know if Congress could actually function. I really don't.
- [23:12]
Charlie Sykes
No, I, I, I, I, I don't know, it's, it's, it's hard to imagine that sort of thing happening. I mean, you know, how long has it been since we've had regular order? How long has it been since you had a budget that went through some sort of a rational process? How many of the policies and the initiatives that we're talking about are the result of the, the process of debate, compromise, voting between, between the Houses that the, that the founders envision it. Yeah. It just feels like that whole thing about how a bill becomes a law. Forget that, just does. Doesn't matter anymore. Okay, so.
- [23:46]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, one other quick point I just want to make, so let's think real quick. The speaker of the House has to get 218 votes to become Speaker. That's the only position that actually needs a majority of the House. Why? Because he's the speaker of the House, not of his party. It has been a while, but there was a time in the past when the speaker was not seen necessarily. I mean, sure, he had partisan leanings, but he was not seen as a partisan operative. It was more seen as, I'm the person that guarantees the functionality of the House, and yes, I'll advantage my party sometimes, but my job is to the whole House. Anyway, that's gone, obviously.
- [24:22]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so we're coming up to the 100, you know, 100 day mark, which is very artificial. And there are a lot of pundits, there are a lot of writers who are saying that, okay, in the first 100 days he may not have been successful, but that Donald Trump's first 100 days will be the most consequential in presidential history. Your reaction?
- [24:42]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I guess I would, I would probably have to agree.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
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Adam Kinzinger
You know, and I think it's going to be one of. Yeah, totally. It's going to be one of two things, Charlie, and I'm. You made the best. I'm not going to steal it because I give you credit. You said, what is it? I'm not an optimist, but I'm hopeful. Right. And I think that this is kind of this moment we're in, which is. It's going to be very consequential in one of two ways. Either this is the end. I mean, honestly, like, this is. We need to be honest about this. This is the end of the 250 years. And ironically, this is the year. Or next year, I guess we're celebrating the 200, 150 years. Or over the next few years, this is either the end of that. And that means that your Generation, my generation and the millennials and the Z generation are the ones that let this fail. Okay, that's possible. The other thing is this easily could be like the moment in which, you know, we basically rise up and push back against authoritarianism and we end up having. We prove the fact that, yes, you can have guardrails that fall apart, but the citizenry can, can defend a democracy. So I think either way, either, either route we take, and obviously you and I have the same preference. Either route we take, I think will be written about in history books more than any other time, more than any, more than even probably 9, 11, under, under, you know, George W. Bush. This will be more consequential to the future of the country.
- [26:06]
Charlie Sykes
I agree with you. You know, when you're looking at, you know, the signs, and again, you know, things are moving very quickly, I think sometimes that we are impatient in trying to come up with a verdict and remembering that 100 days is still only 100 days in the great scheme of things. You can't tell exactly what its significance is, but. But you just know that it is going to be consequential. So Americans are sometimes very, very slow to be aroused. When they are aroused, they can, you know, do remarkable things. The turnaround in the last couple of weeks, the universities finally found some, some of their spine gathering together, looking over their shoulder. The markets clearly have thrown brushback pitches against Donald Trump. You had some people in the business community who drew some lines. The courts, I think, are waking up. And then, of course, we have the polls. I don't spend a lot of time talking about the polls. And Donald Trump probably has a lot of fucks to give about the polls. But the decline in these numbers is significant. It is dramatic, it is unprecedented. No president, no President, including Trump 1.0 had worse polls at this point in his presidency than Donald Trump. And the fact that he's losing on immigration, and we mentioned this on our Friday Emergency podcast, this Washington Post poll, that Trump's immigration ratings turned negative. You know, he was really hanging on, that he was losing on the economy. He's losing on a lot of other things. But, you know, he and Stephen Miller could sit around the Oval Office and say, we just keep. Need. We need to keep talking about immigration and illegal immigrants, because the public's with us on that. Not anymore. So there is an indication that the American people are turning against that.
- [27:43]
Adam Kinzinger
I agree. And I think, too, let's add to the mix. What happens if Ukraine is forced to accept a bad deal? I mean, I think you Know, yeah, most Americans, not unlike me, don't think about Ukraine every day. But I think they still, it's kind of like similar to, you know, Biden with the Afghanistan pull out. I mean, he had, he was popular and then he never went, never recovered from, from that. And I think that was extremely consequential to him. This, the president just has the feeling, I mean, if your goal in a president is just like, let's trigger the libs, you're probably pretty happy with Donald Trump right now. But if your goal of a president is like, I actually want somebody who's going to lead my country and, you know, make me feel good about being an American, I don't think he's doing that. And, and I think that brushback is going to have an impact. But where the, where that can really make some tweaks is in Congress finding its testicular fortitude. Now, what I don't understand. So somebody like Don Bacon, who I really like, he's a friend of mine, right. Stands up. Yeah. He'll stand up and say great things about Ukraine and I appreciate it. And I'm not, I'm not denigrating that. But then when it comes to things like the rule of law, it's just silence. It's like, at what point, you know, and I had to face this on the January 6th stuff, at what point, you know, you play politics a little bit. I didn't speak out all the time against Trump. Right. Because I was like, I gotta survive. But at what point do you realize, like, it is worth putting it all on the line? Maybe when people like Bacon and I'm just using them as an example, I don't know if this is the case when they start to realize I'm not going to win my reelection if I continue to do this, does that give them courage? I don't know, but it's, you know, that's worth thinking about.
- [29:20]
Charlie Sykes
Well, it is worth thinking, but I mean, you, you've come up with this formula that we, you know, have to decide right now. It's either fight, flight or acquiesce. Those are the choices. So talk to me about that.
- [29:30]
Adam Kinzinger
I think that's it. I mean, look, as a country and I, I put out a video the other day on my substack saying like, we need to start thinking this through, which is, you know, we read about the revolutionary, and I want to be clear, I'm not calling for armed conflict. Okay? But we read about the revolutionary generation and we read about them heroically, you know, like, ah, what Great people, they stood up. You know, the minutemen, the threw off the Crown. Well, here's the reality. You actually put yourself in there. Their life was no different than ours. I mean, yeah, they didn't have cars, they had horses, but they had families, they had kids, they had money, they were saving, they had land they were buying. And, you know, many of the colonists is kind of the untold story, actually sided with the crown and, and either spied for the crown or some of them fled to Canada. And, and so in that, you know, you still had these people stand up, but every one of these men who decided to be a Minute man and defend their, Their village put everything on the line. So what's the question for us? I. I really think a quarter of a. Of a millennium, sadly, later, we are the generation that's now forced to defend this, and I don't think we have a choice. So the question is, individually, what are we going to do? Are you going to run? And I have no problem with anybody who says, like, I'm out. I'm just moving to Germany. Okay, fine, I get it. Are we going to acquiesce and just be like, well, this is how it goes. And I'm going to tell you, the majority of people will do that. And if we decide, those of us to decide to fight, what we need to think through now is escalating steps. Right. As you know, Donald Trump does one thing, we need to match that. What is that? Matching action. Well, you know, every month now, millions of Americans are taken to the street. That's good. That's pushback. Well, now Donald Trump arrested a judge. Okay, so what's our pushback here? Eventually, do we get to a point where we actually, you and I, as Republicans, old Republicans, sounds crazy saying this. Do we support a general strike in the economy? You know, at what point? What are those escalating things we can do to fight back? Because, again, we may not want it, but this has fallen on our generations, and we just have to decide what we're going to do.
- [31:38]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, no, I do think and just simply ignoring it and hope as it goes away is not a strategy. You know, I'm sure you've had these moments as I've had, where you think, you know, I would really like to spend way less time thinking about politics and talking about politics daily. I wish I could go back. People understand that if you just say, I would like to just read more books. I would like to, like, spend more time with nature. I want to spend more time. But I keep thinking about something that the late Charles Krauthammer wrote, which is that a society that, that can get everything right, but if it gets the politics wrong, things can go terribly wrong. Think about the history of Germany, think about what happened in China, think about what happened in Russia. That it's unfortunately a luxury. We can't afford to ignore it, especially given what's happening right now, because you either push back against this or they're going to win. And anyone who thinks that this is just a two year or a four year fight, I think is wrong. You and I were on a panel down in Chicago this week and your former colleague Dan Lipinski, former Democratic congressman, had a warning. He said, you know what? He worries that the Democrats are going to misread the midterms. I think that there's always the danger that people think, okay, we've won the midterms, so now we're going to be okay. No, not necessarily. This is gonna be a long term struggle. But it also means you have to go back to first principles. What do you really care? You know, what, what is actually at, at stake here? And I, you know, I've mentioned this before, I get these emails saying, charlie, why have you betrayed all your conservative principles? And I think, have you looked in the mirror to what's happening to American politics right now? That if you are a conservative Republican, all of the principles you have abandoned, so you have to go back and say what really matters to us. And there's a couple of fundamental things. You know, being a constitutional republic, having elections that are respected, a rule of law that means that the government cannot just snatch you off the street and send you to prison without due process. I mean, this is kind of the whole ball game. Everything else is there. And to watch people that you and I used to be associated with buy into that is horrific. But it also shows you what the stakes are. And I think, I'm sorry, Donald Trump is not going away in 2028. And if I, if somebody would have said that to me six months ago, I would have said, calm down, calm down. No, just wait. But this is, this is the fight of our lives.
- [34:18]
Adam Kinzinger
This is the. I agree, I agree. And I think I use this in our panel too, which is like, I think about this, as you know, you're in a trench, right? And you like World War I or Ukraine because it's like trench warfare. And you have one enemy that's five meters away and you have another enemy that's 20 meters away. Now, what I know about military tactics is I'M going to tell everybody in the trench guys, ignore the 20 meter away guy. Okay? Everybody focus fire on the five meter guy because you can kill the 20 meter guy and the five meter guy's in, you're done. And that's where we're at as a country right now. And even as a conservative movement is. Okay, maybe we, we may have disagreements on is the top tax rate going to be 36% or 40%? Okay. That's a 20 meter issue to me. The five meter issue is we're arresting Wisconsin judges now we're deporting people. With that new process, the president has said he wants to deport American citizens. I mean, should we believe him? I don't know. Maybe. And that to me is, is the biggest concern. So in terms of the fatigue and like the, what do we have in front of us? The real estate in front of us? I, I told my wife because I, you know, after this election I was where everybody was, which is like, I'm done. I, you know what, I did my, like I did my January 6th stuff. I'm out.
- [35:35]
Charlie Sykes
Yep.
- [35:35]
Adam Kinzinger
And you felt the same way I did. I realized that. I looked at her, I'm like, okay, I'll sign up for another tour in Vietnam. Right. So I look, I use that because I'm like, there's no shame of people that fought in Vietnam that did one tour. Okay, yeah, some people chose to do two or three tours. It just depends on why. For me, I know that if I decided, hey, it's time for me to do my one in home, I know I would be crawling out of my skin because I actually care about this stuff. Do I wish I cared less about it? I kind of do.
- [36:07]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [36:07]
Adam Kinzinger
But I do care about it. And so I'm signing up for another tour in Vietnam that's going to take us to 2026, and maybe I'll sign up for another tour after that. But I'm focused on the next year and a half at least, and probably in all honesty, three and a half years defeating this cancer. Because look, if we lose, okay, then we can all flee and figure out how to live life. If we win, it's going to be pretty friggin heroic. But if we lose because we didn't fight, then you spend the rest of your life with a lot of regrets.
- [36:35]
Charlie Sykes
You sure do. Okay. In the time we have left though, we haven't gotten to Pete Hegseth as a, as a, as a military man. And I want to get your take on this because every single day we get another story about his recklessness, the chaos, what a mess it is. So I'm not going to. Okay. If you want to make a prediction whether he hangs on or not, you can. But I mean, just your thoughts about someone like Pete Hegsetts being in charge of the world's most powerful military, that Donald Trump and the Republicans in the United States Senate thought that they could put the entire US Military under someone like Pete Hegseth. I mean, what an extraordinary moment this is.
- [37:18]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, it is. And look, I. First off, I don't think survives this. It may not be very near term, because I think the president's very conscious about. He doesn't want the liberal media to do the thing. But I think Hexath is toast. I. That's my prediction. I've been wrong before, so I don't have any insider information. But, look, talk to a former defense secretary who said, I was talking to him about this, and he's like, you know, look at it. Because I said, I feel like I'd be unqualified to be Secretary of Defense. And I'm like, I've. Sir, I was a higher rank than Hegseth in the military, and I served in government for 12 years. And he's like, no, Adam, you'd be fine. He goes, you know, the key is if you just go there and, you know, you just want to be a show pony and, you know, you let the people take care of you, they will. Hexeth hasn't even done that. He's gone there. And instead of being a guy that kind of quietly retreats to sometimes making statements, to being this stall, you know, look, he's an actor, obviously. You have to be an actor to be a weekend talk show host. He could have played the, you know, the role of General Patton. Right. Like, the. The kind of. The calm. Patton may not be the best example like Eisenhower, the calm leader who's going to lead us through these moments. Instead, what you get is a guy that I think feels and. And probably it's not imposter syndrome. He has. He is an imposter. Right?
- [38:36]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [38:38]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. There's no syndrome that weighs heavily on him. And so he has spent his entire four months proving to people he's not an imposter. That's why he brings his wife, his personal lawyer, and his brother and tells him what's going on. It's why he has a text chain of 30 people in the national defense industry where he's sending all this stuff to people like J.D. vance and everybody else. So he Looks like he's in control. It's why he's telling jd. Vance. Yeah, I hate the Europeans, too. I want to make a quick aside on this. Everybody. Everybody that thinks that, you know, Europe should do more to defend the seas with us. Look, I agree. I want to make the point, though. The British and the French were there with us fighting the Houthis up until Trump, and they're still there. They're just not launching stuff. But the United States Navy has told the rest of the world for a hundred years that we were going to be the sole force to protect freedom of navigation of the seas.
- [39:33]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [39:34]
Adam Kinzinger
So the fact that now, all of a sudden, the Germans aren't doing it with us shouldn't surprise us, because we told the Germans we're going to be the ones to do this. And instead you get this clown that's in there that, you know, the. His first public speech, he basically says, we're giving Ukraine everything they want. We hate Europe or whatever it was was. He gets. He gets it schwacked on that one. I mean, this is just. Look, it's a clown show. He's completely unqualified. And the damage he's doing. They're Talking about adding 100 billion to the US military defense budget, which I would support, because, you know, that gets us to the 5% we need to be at, but that's not gonna. That's not gonna reverse the damage that he's done psychologically and, and culturally and. And with our allies to the United States military.
- [40:16]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. And I guess the weirdest part about the story are the Republicans were whispering that we're not going to try to push him out, because if he leaves, whoever takes his place could actually be worse. It's hard to imagine being worse, but with these guys, I mean, in a world in which Dan Bongino is at the FBI and Matt Gaetz was appointed Attorney General, and Tulsi Gabbard. And Tulsi Gabbard is still the Director of National Intelligence. You know, one Russian asset after another. Adam Kinziger, thank you so much for joining me again. I really appreciate it. We'll have to do this again soon.
- [40:57]
Adam Kinzinger
Anytime.
- [40:58]
Charlie Sykes
Thank you all for. Thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We do this because, you know, it's more important than ever to remember that. That we were not the crazy ones.