← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Amy McGarth & Denver Riggleman: Tariffs, Tyranny and Truth in the Barrel
00:55:56
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- [00:00]
Charlie Sykes
Foreign. Welcome to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I am Charlie Sykes. We actually have two guests today who probably need no introduction, although I'm going to introduce them anyway. You know Amy McGrath, by the way, Amy, I'm reading your biog and feeling inadequate with every sentence.
- [00:28]
Amy McGrath
Come on.
- [00:28]
Charlie Sykes
I think. I think people recognize Amy, former Marine fighter pilot, former political candidate from Kentucky. Amy was the first woman to fly a combat mission for the Marine Corps, as well as the first to fly the F A 18 on a combat mission. And during her 20 years of service in the Marine Corps, Amy flew 89 combat missions against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, and of course, was the Democratic nominee for Senate in Kentucky in 2020. And then there, of course, is Denver Riggleman, who is no stranger to this podcast. For the. The predecessors of this podcast, I think of it as kind of a continuation. Former Congressman. Former congressman and staffer for the January 6th committee. So, Amy and Denver, thank you for joining me. I appreciate it very much.
- [01:20]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, great to be with you.
- [01:22]
Charlie Sykes
Well, first off, before we. Let's get some business done, because you two have gotten together and are putting out your own podcast, because that's what the world needs. It needs another podcast. It needs more podcast. And it debuted a week ago. We're a little bit behind the curve here. And it's called Denver. What is it called?
- [01:40]
Denver Riggleman
It is called Truth in the Barrel. And I just want to say, Charlie, it's all Amy's fault. You know, Amy. Amy is in Kentucky. She's in Bourbon County. She knew that I made bourbon, and she called me because she said she needed somebody who, like, exuded this incredible physical attraction across all platforms. So she called me Charlie, right, and said, hey, Denver, would you join me in this Truth in the Barrel con? You know, this Truth in the Barrel podcast and show? So, Charlie, just want to say. Charlie it is. Amy. Amy did call me. I just want everybody to know that.
- [02:12]
Charlie Sykes
In all seriousness, it's a bourbon thing.
- [02:14]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, well, it's. The theme is surrounding whiskey, because, let's face it, we need some bourbon and whiskey to get through what we're all going through right now. But really, it's, you know, Denver and I are just Americans who served our country. And, you know, he's center right, I'm center left. And we come at things with different perspectives, man, woman. But we also believe in our country and believe in our democracy. And I feel like right now there is a place to just tell the truth about what's going on for people. So that's why we're doing it well.
- [02:54]
Charlie Sykes
And there is so much going on. You know, Amy, I want to talk to you about a lot of the national security implications of what's happening right now. But Denver, I want to start with this because I'm a little obsessed by a story that makes, may have, you know, maybe under some people's radar screen, but which I think resonates with us that during one of his photo ops in the Oval Office, Donald Trump, the president of the United States, took time to order a legal investigation, order actual government retaliation against somebody you and I both know, Chris Krebs, and a little background. Chris Krebs headed the agency that was supposed to protect the country from cyber attacks, including attacks on the election. And Chris is very, very well respected. He did his job so well that the 2020 election was free, fair and secure. And he said so. And Donald Trump has never forgiven him for that, fired him by tweet for saying, hey, we did good. The 2020 election, fair, free, secure. And apparently he has been stewing for years. So this week, while he is tanking the world economy by whim, he takes time out to say to strip Chris Krebs of his security clearance, which is not the important thing, and then tells the Justice Department, basically, find something that we can charge. Just give me your sense, Denver, the obsessiveness of this, of the retribution campaign of this president.
- [04:26]
Denver Riggleman
You know, for me, I got one of those preemptive pardons from Joe Biden, which I think Trump's trying to nullify, Charlie. Right? Yep, I did. So you are talking to a pardoned individual here, Charlie.
- [04:38]
Charlie Sykes
So I know that's pardoned for. What did you do?
- [04:41]
Denver Riggleman
Well, Biden did the preemptive pardon pardons for us because I guess they thought Trump would, you know, actually try to, you know, enact some retribution against us. And guess what? He just did. He just did that on Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. And I think when we started this podcast, you know, just and Charlie and I'm not trying to blow smoke up your backside, but you're sort of the dean of this, right? You've been doing this. Now, me and you met years ago and you were already on the track of being this truth teller and this and sort of using this facts based or data based way of actually getting information across. And that's what Chris Krebs did. And I think what Amy and I saw, and I think what you've seen is that this is the very retribution campaign that he said he was going to do. And I think a lot of people just need to listen to what he says. What really was surprising, Chris? It's still surprising, but even Miles Taylor was surprising. You know, when you have a chief of staff, Right. Who actually gets hit because he wrote a letter, the anonymous letter in the book. But I think, Charlie, what scares me is that Everybody involved with J6, using data and facts, are being attacked from somebody who believes in fantasy. It would be like. It would be like him calling an investigation for Chris Krebs because he was mad that Gandalf the Gray got killed in Lord of the Rings. Right. It's that fantastical. So I'm not quite sure how we actually react to this type of retribution. Yeah, yeah, it's just antagonist. It's just retribution, but it's also sort of autocratic nuttery doing this. I think people need to bow up on this pretty hard.
- [06:03]
Amy McGrath
Yeah. And the other thing that he's actually.
- [06:06]
Charlie Sykes
Trying to criminalize belief in the validity of the election. I'm sorry, Amy, go ahead.
- [06:11]
Amy McGrath
No, I was just going to make the point that it's not just an attack on two individuals. The president, also, in the memorandum, attacked the company that Chris Krebs works for now. And what he said was, we're going to withhold security clearances from anyone who works for that company. So it's bigger than just those two individuals. He's going after people that work with those individuals now as retribution. And I just think that that is just so un American, and people need to know that it's not just one or two individuals. This has broader implications.
- [06:51]
Charlie Sykes
Well, he's going after the law firm, the big law firms, if they have any sort of association with anybody he doesn't like, or they've been engaged in litigation that he disapproves of. And I guess what is, I think, discouraging somewhat is the fact that I think all of these things are completely illegal or they're unconstitutional. If the targets challenge them in court, they would win. But you are seeing one institution, one company after another, caving into all of this because I guess they're looking around saying, hey, you know what? If, you know, this big law firm isn't going to fight, why should I fight it? You know, this requires collective action. Right, Amy? I mean, this requires people to collectively say, okay, whatever your politics, you cannot use the weapons of the federal government to come after individuals who criticize you or you didn't like Chris. Chris Krebs is a professional. Or try to destroy businesses who are associated with people you don't like. Right. I mean, There needs to be a collective action. But we're not seeing that, are we?
- [07:53]
Denver Riggleman
No. I mean, you know, when Amy was talking about them going after the companies, also when you're talking about the security clearances and you're talking about the law firms, Charlie, that's what me and Amy sort of touched on. I think that's what you're getting at too, is that who is going to protect people like Chris Krebs, Miles Taylor, other J6 individuals, people who are faxed and data based, who are going to people that bow up and, and I think at this point, Charlie, I don't know who that's going to be. I think we have the Mark Elias's of the world, the Mark Zades of the world. I think they will. But other than that, when you look at some of these big firms, I think they're so cowed. And Charlie, I don't know where you stand on this, but I'm almost to a point. I'm not quite sure why there's so much cowardice and sort of this contraction of people who said that the law was the most important thing in their life. I'm being a little bit, maybe not trying to be facetious that, you know, there's lawyers out there that are good and bad, but at what point do we say enough is enough and actually bow up on this type of behavior? Which is, to me, you're right, it looks illegal and criminal.
- [08:50]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Just one couple of comments on Chris Krebs because I want to get to that question. Philip Bump wrote about this in the Washington Post, and I radically agree with him when he says this is one of the worst things that Trump has done. It was an explicit. It was as explicit a manifestation of Trump's vengeful worldview as anything that we have seen since his second inauguration. There remains no evidence at all that this organization or Krebs engaged in any systematic effort to violate the law or even to combat disinformation because of ideology rather than factuality. And of course, Liz Cheney put out that tweet where she said, in a special mix of incompetence and evil, Trump has combined his disastrous implementation of 1930s tariff policies with Stalinesque targeting of political adversaries. The 2020 election was not stolen, and speaking the truth is only a crime in country ruled by tyrants. So in answer to your question, I think people are caving in because they think that Donald Trump will destroy them, that he's serious about destroying them, and, and that nobody will stand in his way. I mean, Right now, there is that sense that Donald Trump, you know, whatever the poll numbers here, we can get to that. He feels he has the wind in his back. He's all out of bleeps to give. And people don't trust the system. They don't trust the courts, they don't trust independent agencies. So they are genuinely terrified of crossing Donald Trump, which is the kind of thing that only exists in, I'm sorry to use the word in tyrannies.
- [10:25]
Amy McGrath
Yeah. I mean, you're seeing it in law firms. You're seeing it in, in this case, a cybersecurity company, you know, going after these companies. I actually think some of that fear is also in our US Military right now.
- [10:41]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [10:42]
Amy McGrath
With the inability, you know, being terrified of standing up and even having some sort of counter opinion, even in private, could get you fired. I mean, this is. We're in an unprecedented place.
- [10:57]
Charlie Sykes
Well, that is true, though. I mean, the thing is, it is interesting that Donald Trump, of all the institutions that he's targeted, went, you know, to the Department of Justice, wanted to weaponize it, put his most deplorable loyalists there. But he's clearly also really fixated on getting control of the military. I mean, really. And to say that there are frightening implications of that is putting it way too mildly. He's clearly, you know, wanted to put a yes man in charge by appointing Pete Hegseth. He has been purging generals, purging the Joint Chiefs of Staff, making it very clear that if you do criticize them, you are out. Just fired the head of that base in Greenland for, you know, getting J.D. vance mad. You know, mad. But so, so talk to me about this, because one of the big questions I always have is we have these institutional norms and these traditions and all the laws that, you know, will, you know, prevent the military from being abused. But what happens when push comes to shove? Donald Trump wants to make the US Military a instrument of his personal power. Can he do it?
- [12:11]
Denver Riggleman
I think he already has.
- [12:12]
Charlie Sykes
No, I want to hear.
- [12:13]
Denver Riggleman
Okay, yeah, I think he already has.
- [12:16]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, no, no, no. I mean, when the are pointed in a certain way. I'm, I'm, I'm getting dark here. I mean, I'm.
- [12:22]
Denver Riggleman
Oh, you're getting real dark. Oh, you're going down the line. Are we going to invade Greenland?
- [12:26]
Charlie Sykes
Right. No, no. Well, okay, he's already invoked the, you know, the Alien War act or whatever. He's itching to. He's itching to invoke the Insurrection Act. Yeah. I mean, one dark scenario is invading Greenland the other is actually using the military as an instrument of his own personal power in this country. I mean, so, Amy, I've been told over and over again, don't worry about that, men and women in uniform, that they swear an oath. They know that they cannot obey an unlawful oath. But of course, he got rid of all the lawyers who will tell them that. So we have the culture, we have the tradition, we have the norms. Then we have the fear and the fact that he's the commander in chief.
- [13:08]
Amy McGrath
Right.
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Charlie Sykes
Give me. Give me some hope here.
- [13:11]
Amy McGrath
Well, if there isn't, I'll give you the reality. I do think there's hope. There is hope, and I'll start with that. The military is filled with amazing professional people who do love this country and do swear an oath to the Constitution. And most of them, including the leadership, understand that. That said, we are in unprecedented territory because as you stated before, a lot of the stuff, the way the military has run based on norms, you would. You would think that would. It was laws, but it's really not laws, it's norms. And the norms have not been tested the way Donald Trump is testing them. For example, the firing of the lawyers is a big deal because in the military, you have to obey lawful orders. It doesn't say you. You need to resign and go against unethical orders. It says you have to obey lawful orders. So if you make those law, those orders lawful, by having the jags interpret the order to, I don't know, shoot the protesters in the legs, then down the chain of command, technically you have to obey that. Now, you know, we also have the laws of war. So when it comes to external fights, we are sort of managed by the laws of war. But internally, the United States military is not typically used. In our.
- [14:45]
Charlie Sykes
In our country, nothing's typical anymore.
- [14:48]
Amy McGrath
Those are. And those norms have not been. They're kind of gray, they're kind of mushy. And that is where I'm concerned.
- [14:56]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, that's. That, that's. That's pretty alarming. So, Denver, you know, one of the things I think that we ought to take away from the last couple of weeks is that, you know what? It is time to take Donald Trump seriously. All the things that you thought in the back of your mind that he do, that he, that people say, oh, he's joking about this. You know, don't take him literally. Yeah, I think we need to take him literally. I mean, he's willing essentially to trash the world economy based on his obsessions. So when he jokes about having another term in office or invoking the Insurrection act or whatever, he starts referring to the military as my military. Well, I mean, we got to believe him.
- [15:35]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah, yeah, we have to. I think, I think the one thing that when you let up and remember, Charlie, me and you talked right around January six to, if you remember, right after that, you know, back in the day, right back in the day when we thought maybe sanity would actually win at some point. But everything he said he was going to do, he's been doing. And that was one of the things we talked about when we were on the committee. But even, you know, and I was on the floor before January 6, I said, you know, the, the play is being directed at us. There's no real hiding on what they're thinking about the stolen election and what their strategies are. But when you look at Tim Hawk, right when he got rid of Derns, the director of nsa, I met, I met Tim when he was a colonel, Charlie, right. In 06. A guy of incredible integrity. So when you were talking about sort of turning the military forces against American citizens, you're talking about the Insurrection Act. Amy and I did many tabletop exercises where we talked about what the Insurrection act would look like if that actually happened here in the United States. But the people that are choosing to lead these agencies, you talked a little bit about Cash Patel, Charlie, which I know is a very close friend of yours. Just kidding. But also when you're. Yeah, yeah, like are you tight? I know you're tight, Charlie.
- [16:40]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [16:41]
Denver Riggleman
But how about, how about Tulsi Gabbard at dni? What's going on there? Right, Charlie, how, you know, how about Pete Hegseth as you talked about, you know, you have literally people wild out, wild eyed crazies that are trying to direct or actually listening to Donald Trump and downflowing that crazy into the ranks. And I just don't know where we go from there. If the Insurrection act is employed, what do we do about a new NSA with loyalists as Darnza and Deputy Director? And what do we do about a DNI with somebody like Tulsi Gabbard, right. Who's saying some of the craziest things right now, especially about why is Tulsi Gabbard talking about getting rid of electronic voting and going to paper ballot? What is happening? Right? We, we got, you know, getting exactly.
- [17:21]
Charlie Sykes
What you'd expect if you, if you fill the cabinet with people like this. The only thing that I'm surprised by at this point is that Laura Loomer is not secretary of something. I mean you know, the, the, you basically made. Honestly, see, I bet you and I, the three of us, we could have had a bourbon sitting around in October saying, okay, so if Trump gets elected, yeah, let's have a contest of who can come up with the most bizarre list of cabinet members. I don't think we would have come close. I would have said Kash Patel for FBI, Tulsi Gabbard for dni, Pete Heg, you guys would have laughed. You would have said, okay, we're cutting Charlie off. You know, honestly, switch to light beer or something, but come up with any of this.
- [18:05]
Denver Riggleman
Oh, God.
- [18:06]
Charlie Sykes
By the way, okay, speaking of the military, I just wanted to bounce one thing off you. And, and sometimes there are these stories that are substantively important, but you just can't get to them. So the Republicans are moving ahead with the budget, which we, we can come back to. We've gone through all of this, all these budget cuts, you know, for Doge, you know, the slashing of federal workers, the slashing of aid programs. I mean, this blood, you know, I mean, real human cost. And yet apparently now Elon Musk has gotten around to saying, yeah, it's not, I'm not going to save a trillion dollars. I'm not going to save any of that. And plus then Republicans in Congress say, well, yeah, basically fuck savings anyway, we're going to blow up the deficit, you know, with the tax cuts. We really didn't mean any of that. But if you pretend, let's just, you know, that Republicans are still, you know, putting on the fiscal conservative suit, clown suit, and they're pretending, pretending to care about fiscal conservatism, then how are they justifying the hundred million dollar military parade for Donald Trump's birthday?
- [19:08]
Denver Riggleman
One trillion, yeah, $100 million military parade and the one trillion dollar budget. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Go ahead, Amy.
- [19:16]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay, there's two things. I mean, one thing, yes, we're going to jack up the military budget to $1 trillion, which is a big, big increase. But I guess just more tangibly, if you're going through unnecessary expenditures, and I understand there are unnecessary expenditures, I'm just imagining the, and having cut all this, we're going to have a 92 to $100 million military parade in Washington on the day that just happens to be Donald Trump's birthday. I mean, first of all, Amy, just give me your, your, your reaction.
- [19:51]
Amy McGrath
Well, look, we can spare no expense to help with Donald Trump's vanity. I mean, and that's what this is, right? If you can put millions of dollars in a flyby for NASCAR and all that stuff, that's all Donald Trump praising Donald Trump. So in their mind, that should be separate from the budget. But the trillion dollar military budget is actually really interesting because for me, it's this Pete Hegseth very, in my view, unqualified junior officer way of thinking, in my view of lethality, which seems to be his focus. Let's make America make American military lethal again. Well, you know what, the American military has always been lethal, very lethal. What we need to be is strategic and what we need to be is resilient. And he doesn't seem to be focused on that. And so when you look at the trillion dollar idea of, ah, for the first time we're going to have a military budget that's over a trillion dollars, isn't that going to make us wonderful? Meanwhile, you've gutted the other elements of national power that help our military achieve strategic objectives, like usaid, like the Voice of America, like our diplomats in the State Department. General Mattis, who is Secretary Mattis then became Secretary 40, some 50 years of experience in national security affairs has said in terms of usaid, if you do not fund these people, we have to buy more bullets. It's very simple. And Pete Hegseth does not understand that. And therefore, and Donald Trump doesn't understand any of it. But he's being advised by people who in my view have never risen past the rank of thinking tactically. They're in the, they're in the fighting holes. They've done some, they've done some, some shooting, but they don't know how to win the wars. They don't know how to, to, to achieve our objectives strategically. And this is just an example of that.
- [22:02]
Charlie Sykes
This is very, very interesting because I agree with you that they have no concept of soft power as a thing that they actually think of. It's kind of as offensive. But let's put this in the context of what's happening economically as well. So Donald Trump has started a terror war. He blinked somewhat, but is now playing this extraordinary game of chicken with China. And right now as we're talking, they seem to be doing this ratcheting up on who can get to 200% faster. Meanwhile, almost all of our allies or NATO allies have been threatened, alienated, insulted. We're kind of alone at some point. That also has national security implications as well. Right? Because right now, I mean, America place in the world feels fundamentally different than it did just a few years ago.
- [22:55]
Denver Riggleman
Well, I think you Know, I was, yeah, I was in Ukraine in September, heading back and you know, I think when you're talking about the ripple effects of fantasy based policy, you're looking at what's happening right now in Ukraine and how Poland is blown up. This is one of Amy's actually big, big concerns, right, is Poland already has announced like maybe we need nuclear weapons if the United States isn't going to actually come at us, right. South Korea, right. And then you're looking up north to the Baltics, right. We know that there's seven countries that surround Ukraine, right. One of them being Poland. But we even have places like Mal, Moldova, which we were trying to actually integrate with and we crushed them with tariffs. And you know, it's just, it's just amazing to me how shortsighted this policy is based on hubris and arrogance and really a lack of understanding on how the global nuanced situation is integrated in everything we do as a global power. I think what also gets to me and Charlie, I think you were mentioning this when you're talking about tariffs, soft power, the combination of how we're alienating our allies, the fact that that's going to push people maybe into getting their own nuclear programs. And again, Amy teaches this right as a professor. And now you're looking at proliferation, you're looking at the loss of the security apparatus. All of this stuff is actually intertwined and that's why you need serious people in charge. And Charlie, you said something at the beginning and, and I want to go back to it. The reason that I'm all out of fucks to give, and I think Amy is too, is because we care so much. I, I, I think you get to a point when you're looking at what's happening when we both, with both of our military backgrounds, the fact that we've been at the highest level, either serving in government, running for offices that are incredible, when you have the background that you have, right, of two individuals that have seen this through the military, the national security apparatus, the congressional apparatus, what's happening in the academic apparatus, what's happening, as Amy has seen in the academies, all of this is connected. And if we don't have people that want to protect the Constitution and are all out of fucks to give, where do we even go, Charlie? Where do we even go? You know, you podcast or this alternative media that we're doing or we're trying to do again, tariffs alienating our allies, alienating Ukraine, being pro Putin, what happens in the South China Sea now with China, what happens if we do give up a broker deal in Ukraine, what happens then? What do our allies think? What happens? Just what happened. What happens when South Korea, China and Japan do their own trade deal outside the United States, which just happened? Now we're seeing an alienation that's going to take decades for us to fix.
- [25:29]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, the only thing I'll add Charlie to that is I think we, we tend to overlook the human side of national security. We tend to focus on how many tanks do we have, how many planes do we have, how many, you know, how big is our military and our budget and all these things. Here's the bottom line. When you have the Vice President and the Secretary of Defense routinely shitting on our allies and partners around the world, whether it deals with security, but in this recent one, it's dealing with trade and our own president treating our long standing partners and allies in trade so poorly, it will absolutely have ramifications in the security and intelligence world. People are human. When a country does something to your country boy, how patriotic. Do you just want to give them the big middle finger? Right. And you might work for the Ministry of Defense in that country. Guess what? It's going to have ramifications on our security ties to all these other countries. And you know what? I hate to bring somebody in who is now banned by the United States Naval Academy's library, but there's a very famous poet writer by the name of Maya Angelou, and unfortunately her book was just banned because of Pete Hegseth. But one of the favorite quotes that I've always remembered from her is no one remembers what you said. They remember how you made them feel. And when the United States is doing what we're doing in terms of trade to our long standing allies and partners, it will have long standing effects on our, on our security commitments and our, our ties, which are so much a part of our power. Soft power. Power.
- [27:25]
Charlie Sykes
Soft power is still power. You know, there's so much to unpack there. And I want us to start right there. I mean, when you lose you, it's like personal relationships. When you lose trust, when you no longer think that that person is your, is your friend, that's hard to fix. Now, maybe nations will be differently, but I, but I think the damage is long term here. But in terms of what you're talking about, in terms of our alliances, every grown up, responsible, grown up in the last 50 years has understood that America is stronger with its allies, with its alliances. You know, we're not strong because we have parades, we roll tanks down Pennsylvania Avenue. We're, we're, you know, strong because we have other eyes, other people who are going to come to us. Two points to Denver's point, about nuclear proliferation. Do you agree, Amy? I don't know how you don't have countries like Poland going, well, we saw what happened when Ukraine gave up its nukes. We can't trust the United States anymore. We're not even sure we're on the same side anymore. We have existed under their nuclear umbrella. There's no way the United States is ever going to protect us. And Vladimir Putin, you know, will not be deterred. So, of course they're going to think about getting nukes. And secondly, we also have the eyes, the other intelligence agencies. I mean, they'd be crazy not to at least, you know, close the door and go, you know, do we really want to share, you know, real sensitive information with these guys? I mean, it's got to have tremendous implications for those kinds of relationships. What do you think?
- [29:04]
Amy McGrath
Well, first, I never want to share information with Tulsi Gabbard, for one.
- [29:07]
Charlie Sykes
Well, that's what I'm saying.
- [29:09]
Amy McGrath
But to the nuclear proliferation, this is really real. The Polish prime minister has already said that they should get a nuclear weapon. The majority of South Koreans and South Korea, by the way, has the most nuclear reactors per capita than any country in the world. So it's not a big leap technologically for them. They could. They could get a nuclear weapon in a matter of months. I picked a bad.
- [29:35]
Charlie Sykes
To drink water. Water. I am really.
- [29:40]
Denver Riggleman
Are you drinking water? Is that water in that glass?
- [29:42]
Charlie Sykes
It is actually really water, yeah. You know, I. I am really disappointed.
- [29:47]
Denver Riggleman
I am not drinking water, Charlie.
- [29:49]
Amy McGrath
Japan, Germany, the. The Germany is already asking, already in talks with the UK And France to try to get under their nuclear umbrella. They typically don't provide a nuclear umbrella. Why? Because they don't have enough nukes. We have most of the nukes. So all of these countries have been under our umbrella. And when you have Donald Trump as the president, they're all looking and saying, we can't trust the United States anymore. And speaking of water, this is the last thing I'll say on this. Once the dam breaks and one of these countries gets nukes, guess what? They're all going to get him. They're all going to get it. Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea, Germany, Poland.
- [30:34]
Denver Riggleman
Why not? Why wouldn't they Now?
- [30:37]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, for.
- [30:38]
Charlie Sykes
For. If anyone's still listening to us after this.
- [30:42]
Denver Riggleman
What you think. You think that they. Do you think they're running through the woods, like, it's just no clothes, completely just. I, I have no reason to live.
- [30:50]
Charlie Sykes
So on this subject, does anyone anywhere in the world think that Donald Trump would go to war to defend Taiwan or would be a credible defender? And I wonder with this trade war with China. I was driving, listening to some of the commentary, and this random thought occurred to me. I could see Donald Trump just trading Taiwan in a nanosecond for some trade ship with President Xi, who's basically taken him to the cleaners. I. Because everything in the world is transactional for Donald Trump, and Taiwan is a chip with China. We're involved. What do you think about. Is that fair?
- [31:34]
Denver Riggleman
I, I think it is fair. I think, I think that's. I think that's why Japan is starting to bow up a little bit themselves. Right, Charlie? Is that they're like, you know, can we really count the United States right now? Right. And do we need to look to South Korea? And by the way, maybe we have to worry about our own trade issues with China and possibly right. When it. With the South China Sea and the enemies there. Right. Maybe it's time for us to have a good relationship with China. So, okay, interesting. Sort of take us out of the loop. Now you have Taiwan. I think Trump would leave Taiwan hanging in a heartbeat. And I also, I think he would actually declare it as a victory. Right. One of the greatest geopolitical victories in the history of the United States. We're not going to war for China over Taiwan because we gave it up because we got free trade with China and we got what he wants, his reparations, trade reparations, when we got that, too. So look how great I am. But again, first of all, I think we would find out about it on signal before anything. Charles. Right, Charlie. I think we'd find out about it because I think the only thing that he's doing right now is he's probably signaling Kim Jong Un for parade tips. Right. When it comes down to what Donald Trump wants to do with the military. So. But again, I don't think anything is out of play. And again, I hate to go back to the beginning of the conversation. He's done what he says he's going to do. He has been completely blunt. There isn't any nuance to Donald Trump. He has said exactly what he's going to do. The people that he has chosen are going to follow what he's going to do, and we have people that will execute those orders without regards to legalities. And I think that's where we're at, Charlie. I just. I just think we need to sort of. We need to say, hey, this is where we're at. Just accept the situation.
- [33:11]
Charlie Sykes
And I think that there's been a failure of imagination about what he's going to do, what's going to happen. I actually remember, you know, not blowing spoke to you, Denver, but I remember you were writing in the days before January 6th that you were picking up all of these signs and all of these signals, and it's going to be really, really bad. I mean, you put it out there as a record and everybody was like, well, how bad could it get? It's. It's going to be fine. It's. It's just. I kind of feel we're were in that. That moment. And by the way, you were being snarky when you talked about getting the, the tips from Kim Jong Un for the, for the, for the parade. For the parade, literally. For the parade, literally. Look, Donald Trump is going to sit down with Pete Hegseth and he's going to show him pictures. I want it to look like this. I want to look like Red Square. I want to look like, what the. And I'm guessing somebody's going to give him a picture of all of these, you know, North Korean missiles guy. I want bigger missiles. I want more missiles.
- [34:08]
Denver Riggleman
He's probably going to ask fans to get the Kim Jong Un haircut to sit next to him. Like, it's, it's insane. You know? It's insane.
- [34:16]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so since this has been really heavy, can we talk about something light and fluffier, like. Yeah, yeah, like. Okay, so the.
- [34:25]
Denver Riggleman
It's Amy drinks. It's going to be a great podcast, Charlie.
- [34:30]
Charlie Sykes
So let's. We're going. We're going. We're going light here. Okay. If it's okay with you guys. What's wrong with the Democratic Party, Amy? I mean, you're a Democrat, right? Wow.
- [34:42]
Denver Riggleman
Off the top rope.
- [34:44]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, really, why is it that they have taken. I mean, I. You feel they're getting a little bit of. Of mojo going, but it's, it's. It's like they had no idea what was coming. So just come on, you know?
- [34:59]
Amy McGrath
And look, I, I'm not a. I'm not a political strategist. I always tell people I'm just an old, old Marine.
- [35:07]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, you've been there. You've been in the trenches.
- [35:09]
Amy McGrath
You know, I have. I always said, you know, with regards to sort of running in. In really red states, you're not just running that for that cycle. You're running against many years, and in my case, decades of branding of Democrats as, you know, weak, terrible, the Antichrist, whatever, you know, and so you. It's hard. Okay? And so I'm, you know, I don't want that.
- [35:35]
Charlie Sykes
That was Denver's campaign literature back in.
- [35:38]
Denver Riggleman
That was totally just so.
- [35:40]
Charlie Sykes
You know.
- [35:42]
Amy McGrath
It's hard. It's hard. You know, I do think that, that there needs to be a new generation of leaders and obviously in both parties, but also in the Democratic Party. I know that's sort of like nobody wants to hear that, but I think there's a lot of good, solid patriots within the Democratic Party. I'm talking Alyssa Slotkin, Mikey Sherrill, Abigail Spanberger, Jason Crow, Pat Ryan. I think these, these folks, I would love to see them sort of move up a little bit.
- [36:19]
Charlie Sykes
Hey, but I'm being told by. I'm being told by all the cool kids that AOC is the future. That, that it's gonna, that it's gonna be Bernie and ao. Aoc. That all you Democrats need is just a little bit more of that AOC juice. What do you think?
- [36:36]
Amy McGrath
Well, when I hear that. And it's, it's, it's nothing really against AOC or Bernie. They have their own following. But here's the facts. There's been no swing district in this country, no purple district that has ever been won by a far left candidate, ever.
- [36:54]
Denver Riggleman
Fact.
- [36:54]
Amy McGrath
So it. And so if you're going to look at how do you get power back, what is the path to getting power back? You have to look at those, you know, those districts. That's the path. And that is you have to have candidates and a message that appeals to those districts. And I'm not quite sure that going further left, which is what people accused me of not doing enough of, is the way to go.
- [37:26]
Charlie Sykes
So people told you that you should have become more left wing in Kentucky?
- [37:33]
Amy McGrath
Oh, yeah.
- [37:34]
Charlie Sykes
Because. Oh, yeah.
- [37:35]
Amy McGrath
No, I definitely got the. I'm not left enough. I'm too vanilla. I'm too milquetoast is what they call milquetoast. I'm not far enough left. The funny thing about that, Charlie, is I ran on the exact same platform, policy platform in 2018 when I ran for Congress as I did in 2020. But in 2018, I had a different primary opponent than I did in 2020. In 2018, I ran against somebody who was more moderate in the primary. So therefore I was considered further left. In 2020, I ran against a primary opponent who was much further left to me. So then I was considered moderate milk toast. But the funny thing is, I didn't change anything. It's just the perception.
- [38:19]
Denver Riggleman
Okay, can a former Republican answer this? Are you ready?
- [38:24]
Charlie Sykes
Well, we do this on this podcast every day, so, yes, I know.
- [38:30]
Denver Riggleman
I was just being so facetious. But here's the thing. If I can sum it up, If Bernie and ARC are the standard bearers for the Democratic Party, it's going to be generational losses and difficulties with the Dems. It's that simple.
- [38:43]
Charlie Sykes
They.
- [38:44]
Denver Riggleman
If those are the standard bearers, they're screwed.
- [38:46]
Charlie Sykes
Why? Why?
- [38:47]
Denver Riggleman
Because you. But they're fighting back.
- [38:49]
Charlie Sykes
A lot of other people aren't. That's what I'm hearing. Right?
- [38:51]
Denver Riggleman
I love it. I'm glad they're fighting back. I'm glad they are. But where are the actual. It's almost like we have to make America sane again. You know, we talked about, you know, the GOP and the Democrats. Here's how I sort of, you know, we have a party that vacillates, right? And we have a party that's insane, right? Like, it's lost rationality on every level. When Amy's talking about this sort of back and forth. I've been asked to run as a Democrat, Charlie. I mean, and Amy knows this, right? So this is not known that. That this is. This is just us right now. It's just us friends talking. I'm sure nobody will hear this, right, because there's only thousands of thousands that listen to your podcast, Charlie.
- [39:28]
Charlie Sykes
But we'll keep it between us, okay?
- [39:31]
Denver Riggleman
Can we. Can we, please? But here's what I asked. I said, can you guarantee that the far left. Oh, come on. If I'm going against somebody in the fifth district of Virginia, like a John Maguire who took selfies at J6, can you guarantee that the far left will get on the bandwagon of somebody like me? You're like, well, we think there's no way, because they can't get out of their tribal thinking. And so when you're looking at Bernie and AOC are the ones fighting, that's great. But they're not fighting on the playing field that the vast majority of middle, middle America actually stands on. They just don't even know what's going on there. People can fight on a progressive side. When you're looking at the insanity of the far right, that's in a hold my beer moment and they're sniffing glue or whatever they're doing, that's fine. Fight. Bring it to the. Bring it to the front. But there's not going to be a Bernie candidate. That wings wins in Virginia, too. There's not going to be a Bernie candidate that actually wins where, Amy? It just isn't going to happen. The problem that we have is that the far right is so mobilized in fantasy, conspiracy theories and ridiculousness that we almost need this overwhelming. It's not even the middle anymore, Charlie. It's not the center. It's not moderates. And if I made, if I may humbly submit, it's the rational. And the rational need to be very confrontational. We need to be assholes, and we need to go right into it. And I think that's the only way to do it. So I need Jason Crow out there getting tens of thousands of people. That's who I need out there getting tens of thousands of people right now. And he could do it. Right. It's great that AOC and Bernie are mobilizing a fringe portion of the party, 20 to 30%, not really fringe, but the other side. But we need to find that 50 to 60% middle slice, and we need to smack on them and get rationality out there and be confrontational and go right at them just like the nuts do.
- [41:14]
Charlie Sykes
That's, again, you know, disarray is a problem that the Democrats have had to wrestle with. But, but I think delusion is much more dangerous than, than disarray. And I do worry about the, the bubbles. I'm on blue sky. I actually like blue sky. But there are. Sometimes you can find yourself in a bubble where people don't understand how what you're saying sounds to the voters who will determine who controls America. You know what I'm saying? I mean, just like, yeah, okay, this makes sense among us. And you bounce it back and forth and it becomes, you know, sure, let's defund the police. Let's have absolutely open borders. And, you know, why not have taxpayer funding for transsexuals and all of those things, check them all on the box, and then are surprised when they turn them into hundreds of millions of dollars of ads. And so I do worry that there are these bubbles. I don't mean to pick on blue sky. I mean, I'm a contributor to msnbc, but I mean, Amy, you know what I'm talking about. The. Amy, the MSNBC thing where, I mean, I've been doing that for years and I've never been asked to even talk about certain questions like, hey, you know, there's another point of view out here. Or you understand that if you walk into, you know, a, a truck stop in Wausau and you say what you just said is the winning formula. It would be. You'd be laughed out of the room. So part of that is how do you get the. And the names you mentioned, I think, are exactly the kinds of people who are the future of the opposition, because first of all, they win elections. They win elections not in Burlington, Vermont, or Berkeley, California, or Madison, Wisconsin. They win elections in states where they're not supposed to win. You have Democrats that win in Kentucky, but they sound different, don't they?
- [43:01]
Amy McGrath
Yeah, I mean, they're more. They're more practical. They know, they understand the things that would trigger people, too. They're more savvy with how they talk about certain things. And, you know, Jared golden is another example. In Maine, you know, a lot of them end up come from the veteran community. You know, we're sort of, we see it all. And Denver and I, when we do our show, it's one of the things we want to really focus on is not just being in a silo and sort of repeating maybe even Democratic talking points, but really looking at what is the other side saying? Is there merit to what the other side's saying? And if there is, let's talk about it. If it's just bullshit, let's also talk.
- [43:50]
Charlie Sykes
About it and why that's hard, isn't it? Isn't that hard, though. I mean, this is interesting that you say that because, I mean, I really struggle against that because at a certain point, because the divisions are so deep and the stakes are so high, you don't want to say the worst person in the world just made a good point. You just really don't want to do it. And there's also that tendency, and I think the, the never Trump right fell into it, which is that, you know, because anything Trump is for, we're against. And, you know, you make any sort of alliances to begin to adopt not just, you know, center right positions, but, you know, just, you know, keep moving to the left. In other words, you know, no longer providing an ideological critique. And then before you know it, you're all sounding alike and you're, you're actually nodding, Amy, about this because you've seen this phenomenon, right?
- [44:41]
Amy McGrath
It's interesting you say that because on our show, we've done a couple episodes already, and we've been very, very, very critical of Donald Trump and his administration, and rightfully so. However, one of the things I was gonna throw at Denver for next week, and he doesn't even know this yet, was I was gonna challenge him to be like hey, we need to do a segment on what the Trump administration is doing. Right. And I know you're shaking your head because there's not much. And you know what? He's far outweighed by all of the crap that he's doing. So there's like nothing in my mind that he's doing that would compare to even make that even. But I have something in mind that I want to talk about that I think he's doing right. And I wanted to challenge Denver to try to come up with something. I don't know if he can, but, like, that is the sort of thing we still need to continue to talk about. About.
- [45:36]
Denver Riggleman
I, I think ideas poorly executed. I can come up with things that I think that maybe when you're talking about tariffs or you're talking about defense spending, especially in Charlie, I mean, Amy, sorry to. I'm not going to be geeky, but looking at the approach process or the NDAA process, the line process, right, Where I think that some of the ideas might have had some merit, but maybe the execution is so insane that even a sane idea gets completely contorted and twisted, you know, as you're going down the line. So I think that's part of it, right. Is that I think that's probably where we need to go. I think, you know, in doing this show. But Charlie, why we wanted to talk to you, too, is that, I don't know, you said something about the left and the right, how we, how we do a show where you're just not looking at the insanity of the right. Right. Because crazy is not party specific. It's just the Republicans that are a hold my beer moment. But the question, Charlie, you know, and why, you know, Amy and I wanted to be here, you seem to have been able to metastasize sanity in a way that other people can't. So, you know, in a small way, how do you metastasize sanity? Rather than 911 Truthers or January 6 election deniers or people who believe in alien abductions or that Bigfoot is their spirit guide. Right. How do you get out of that? Right. How do you get up that line? But also when you're looking at people who go really far left or far right on these podcasts, my question is how do you monetize sanity, Right. How do you get the funding right to actually monetize sanity and rationality when that's not part of the funding cycle when it comes to far left and far right and how entrenched they are in those tribalistic Positions.
- [47:11]
Charlie Sykes
Okay. This is a huge sort of inside thing because there is a lot of audience, you know, capture, you know, fan service that goes on. And sometimes I'll look at, you know, some of the things that are out there and going, you know, you're afraid to go anywhere, you know, in anywhere different. So, I mean, I, you're going to find out that, you know, one of the reasons why we have these alternative reality bubbles is because people want them. They want, they want to hear what they want to hear. I mean, seriously. And one of the things that I'm really struggling to do, and I think you're probably going to struggle to do it as well, I just want to warn you about this. You know, there are conversations that are difficult that have to take place, like, what do the Democrats have to learn from 2024? I did a podcast the other day, you know, about one of the new books about the election, why the Democrats lost, why Trump won. You know, what, what should, you know, you know, you know, should Biden have dropped out? What do we not know about Biden's age? And there was a huge amount of blowback. Like, why are we even talking about this? Why are you bashing Democrats? Why are we beating a dead horse? And it's like, I don't really want to engage, but this would be like the coach of a football team that just got blown out saying, I'm not looking at any of that tape. I'm not either. The, you know, we're not going to talk about what we, what we're just. I get that. But, but, but also there, there, there's a downside to denial and to delusion, and sometimes you have to go back and you have to do that difficult thing. You have to have the autopsy. You have to say, okay, I gotta tear the scab off here. What did we do wrong? Because you don't want to do it again. I mean, if the goal is to get rid of these people, then actually winning elections is what it's about. You can't get away from that. And winning elections means talking to voters who are not necessarily all of them in that bubble. I know that's what you're, I'm preaching to the converted here. But just for folks to understand it is much harder than, than people think, because it's really easy to go far right and make a lot of money. It's real easy to go left and all woke and star fucking and make lots of money. It's really hard to say, hey folks, can we just stay kind of sane?
- [49:32]
Amy McGrath
It is hard and it's a bit of an experiment, right, to do something that. What we're doing. But I'll say that I do think that there is a good amount of people who don't believe in sort of corporate media anymore and they just want the truth. And they're not super far left or far right, but they can be swayed by, you know, things that just aren't true. I was down at. Last month I was down at one of the town halls in Florida for Florida 1, which is where I used to live in Pensacola when I was stationed in flight school. So I went down there to, to do a town hall with the Democratic candidate, Gay Vallamont, and she ended up losing that election. But she won a Scambia county, by the way, which was Pensacola, which hadn't happened since 1992, which is pretty amazing. But the, the town hall was packed and we had a lot of questions. One guy who was there as, as a Democrat, like as an independent, he raises his hand and says, why? Tell me, Amy, you know, a little bit about aviation and stuff. Why did Joe Biden leave the astronauts up in space? Why didn't he bring them back? Why did he? You know, he couldn't. I mean, the guy had clearly just read this on some decentralized conspiracy theory.
- [50:52]
Charlie Sykes
Well, tell me what the answer was for people who are watching us who are like, yeah, I was wondering that.
- [50:56]
Amy McGrath
Well, there was this far right conspiracy and Denver could probably talk about it because he lives in these circles that.
- [51:05]
Denver Riggleman
Damn, I'm so in tune with nuttery.
- [51:07]
Amy McGrath
You know, left. Left the astronauts in space on purpose. These astronauts that were up there, some mechanical problems that we couldn't get them back to Earth in the right amount of time. They, they were actually up there for many, many months because of safety. We wanted to get them home and we could resupply them, but we wanted to make sure that we got them home safely. And of course, in that timeframe, Charlie, we had an inauguration of another president. And so the conspiracy is that Joe Biden didn't want him to come home, left him to dry, and this guy believed it. And so you have to counter that stuff because you can just laugh. We're all laughing here. But people believe, and that's, you know, we have to be out there. And in this day and age, policy platforms, media platforms are almost as important as policy platforms. And that's what I would say about, you know, the 2024 election too. We need to be out there within a relationship with people, with sanity, prior to Election years.
- [52:12]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I think, you know, there's. We live in an attention economy and there's, there's so much competition for attention. But I also think that we, that there is also a trust economy and that people are looking, Are looking for people that they can trust. One of the reasons why they are leaving the corporate media is they no longer trust them. And the question that I get all the time is, can I believe this person? Can I believe that person? Who do I listen to? And so I think that there is a great churn out there of people who are looking for trusted voices. So maybe that's the answer. Denver for what the model is. You know, find the audience that wants someone to trust, may think you're full of shit on something, but at least knows you're giving it to them straight.
- [52:57]
Denver Riggleman
Yeah, you know, it's hard not to trust me. First of all, I've told so many people things they don't want to hear. I don't know what else to say because it's very difficult to go against a guy who the left accused of being a Bigfoot eroticist Nazi and the right accused of the tool of the Antichrist being funded by George Soros and the general of the sodomite armies. So I have. So I have been. I have been. I don't know, Charlie, if. No, first of all, listen, I think first of all, being a Nazi and general, the sodomite armies would be mutually exclusive. Just a guess, right? So I think also with what happened with January 6th, I think that people do know that people were so pissed off on the right and the left, but I'm so data driven. And I think Amy was in the middle of hell going against Mitch McConnell and Andy Barr, right? Where she's on stage crushing debates and everybody's like, no, we would rather nuttery. And she got hit on so many sides. And she can tell you those stories sometime over bourbon, Charlie. And I think what you have are two people that really are out of Fs to give. I think. I think we are because we know you have to be there in order to make a difference. And as far as the Democrats and Republicans, a great thing about intelligence analysis is that past performance is indicative of future performance. So when people come up and tell me, you know, Trump, oh my God, he's crazier than I thought, I'm like, really? Are you really? Or. And they're like, oh, my God, the Democrats lost again. Really? Really? Are you kidding? So I think that's where we're at, is we're at the really stage with people like, oh, why can't AOC and Bernie be the zeitgeist of the Democratic Party? Or, oh, my gosh, Trump. I didn't think he was going to be this crazy. I voted for him. I should have voted for Harris, because Now I've lost $10 million in my business and I can't get courts right. So you're like, okay, there's not much more we can do. So Amy and I are going to drag an ax into battle, and we're going to look across the field. We're going to look at each other just like you do, Charlie, every day. And, like, this is going to suck and a lot of people are going to hate us. But maybe, just Maybe, just maybe, 1 to 3% of the population will come our way.
- [55:03]
Charlie Sykes
Okay? So I just want to remind you as we wrap this up, Denver and Amy, that we just have to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. And this is how I end everyone in my podcast. The reason we do this is to remind ourselves because people are out there watching the insanity and thinking, okay, is it just me? And I think that's the point of my podcast, is the point of your new podcast, which is Truth in the Barrel. You can find it every Sunday. The point is that those people are full of it, but we are not the crazy ones. Amy, Denver, thank you so much for joining me.
- [55:43]
Denver Riggleman
Thank you, Charlie.
- [55:44]
Charlie Sykes
Thanks.