Podcast Summary: "Ben Wittes: The US Switches Sides in Ukraine"

To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Ben Wittes
Release Date: February 20, 2025

Introduction

In this pivotal episode of To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes, host Charlie Sykes engages in a comprehensive discussion with Ben Wittes about the alarming shifts in U.S. foreign and domestic policies under the Trump 2.0 presidency. Released one month into Trump's renewed term, the episode delves deep into the United States' unexpected pivot regarding Ukraine, the erosion of the Department of Justice's independence, and the broader implications for NATO and European alliances.

The Betrayal of Ukraine

The conversation opens with Charlie highlighting the U.S.'s apparent betrayal of Ukraine, noting Donald Trump's alignment with Kremlin narratives. He expresses astonishment at witnessing the U.S. adopting the aggressor's narrative in the conflict between Vladimir Putin's forces and Ukraine.

Charlie Sykes [00:44]:
“...the complete betrayal of Ukraine. ...to watch what's happening right now with Marco Rubio sitting across from the Russians...”

Ben Wittes [02:33]:
“At one level, there is nothing surprising about this... he has a vindictive hatred of Ukraine...”

Wittes emphasizes that Trump's animosity towards Ukraine is not newfound but rooted in his longstanding admiration for Vladimir Putin, tracing back to statements made during Trump's 2015 and 2016 campaigns.

Ben Wittes [05:59]:
“...the United States be very self consciously and deliberatively on the wrong side of a conflict between a genocidal dictator and a democratic country.”

Wittes reflects on personal experiences supporting Ukraine, underscoring the shock of witnessing the U.S. side with Russia's narrative.

Marco Rubio's Shift and Its Implications

A focal point of the discussion is Senator Marco Rubio's transformation from a staunch Russia hardliner to a figure willing to appease Moscow. Wittes attributes this shift to Rubio's personal ambitions and alignment with Trump's agenda.

Charlie Sykes [09:37]:
“...let's talk about Marco Rubio to me in a way that does not include the phrase dickless...”

Ben Wittes [11:05]:
“...Marco Rubio went from being people who represented something and something honorable to being people who are willing instruments of the precise opposite of what they've ever represented.”

This transformation is portrayed as emblematic of a broader Republican capitulation, undermining longstanding alliances and emboldening authoritarian regimes.

Domestic Implications and the Department of Justice

The episode transitions to domestic concerns, particularly the weaponization of the Department of Justice (DOJ) under Trump's leadership. Sykes and Wittes discuss the erosion of DOJ's independence, with Trump appointing allies like Cash Patel as FBI Director and issuing broad pardons to January 6th rioters.

Charlie Sykes [27:27]:
“...Wish I was going to, I thought he might make a distinction between the, the violent ones.”

Ben Wittes [30:10]:
“Terribly badly damaged. And the FBI Terribly badly damaged...”

Wittes elaborates on the systemic damage inflicted upon the DOJ and FBI, emphasizing the loss of elite prosecutors and specialized FBI agents, which hampers the U.S.'s capacity to tackle corruption and maintain legal integrity.

Ben Wittes [35:27]:
“...it was never going to be me.”

This sentiment, expressed by resigning DOJ officials, serves as a clarion call against the administration's attempts to politicize the Justice Department.

The Future of the U.S. and Europe: NATO and Alliances

Sykes and Wittes explore the broader geopolitical ramifications, particularly the potential dissolution of NATO's solidarity. With the U.S. seemingly abandoning its Article 5 obligations, Europe faces the daunting task of independently safeguarding its interests against Russian aggression.

Ben Wittes [17:08]:
“Some European countries are extremely cash rich and can finance a great deal in Ukraine if they want...”

Charlie Sykes [20:21]:
“...we are switching to the wrong side, led by the party of Ronald Reagan...”

Wittes outlines three key principles for European nations to recalibrate their defense strategies: financial support for Ukraine, asserting independence from U.S. protection, and rebuilding Europe's defense industrial base. He warns that without U.S. support, Europe must resist falling into a protection racket-like relationship with Trump.

Judiciary as the Last Guardrail

The discussion shifts to the U.S. judiciary's role in countering executive overreach. Sykes references President Trump's alleged statements undermining the judiciary, raising concerns about a constitutional crisis.

Charlie Sykes [47:27]:
“...I am prepared to ignore you and to defy you and create a constitutional crisis.”

Wittes acknowledges the uncertainty surrounding the Supreme Court's response to such threats but underscores the judiciary's critical role as a remaining check against presidential excesses.

Ben Wittes [50:06]:
“...impoundment. Right. He is trying to create a revolution in the relationship between the branches of government...”

He highlights upcoming Supreme Court cases that could redefine executive power, particularly regarding the President's authority to withhold funds appropriated by Congress and the ability to fire civil servants.

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a somber reflection on the profound challenges facing both U.S. domestic institutions and international alliances. Sykes commends Wittes for his insightful analysis, underscoring the severity of the current political trajectory.

Charlie Sykes [54:19]:
“...I think it's one of the smartest podcasts I have ever hosted.”

Ben Wittes [54:59]:
“...I'm so glad your voice is back in my ears. And congratulations on the new podcast.”

The discussion serves as a stark warning about the potential unraveling of democratic norms and the pivotal role of both domestic institutions and international partners in safeguarding against authoritarian shifts.

Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Sykes [00:44]:
  “...the complete betrayal of Ukraine. ...to watch what's happening right now with Marco Rubio sitting across from the Russians...”

• Ben Wittes [05:59]:
  “...the United States be very self consciously and deliberately on the wrong side of a conflict between a genocidal dictator and a democratic country.”

• Ben Wittes [35:27]:
  “...it was never going to be me.”

• Charlie Sykes [47:27]:
  “...I am prepared to ignore you and to defy you and create a constitutional crisis.”

This episode of To The Contrary provides a compelling and urgent examination of the evolving political landscape in the United States, emphasizing the critical need for vigilance in preserving democratic institutions and international alliances.