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- [00:00]
Chris Cillizza
Foreign.
- [00:10]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. And I am joined by Chris Cilliza, who is a giant on Substack. And you know, one of these other guys like Julian Zelizer, that I really wonder, do you ever actually sleep? So welcome to the podcast, Chris.
- [00:26]
Chris Cillizza
I do actually sleep. Thank you for having me.
- [00:30]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so let's. We have, we have so much to talk about. You and I are speaking in right after Donald Trump has declared happy days are here again. We have this big, beautiful deal with the Chinese. He's lowered. He signed an executive order lowering drug prices or asking drug price a little bit short of that. He's defending the cutter jet deal, which I want to talk about. So, I mean, there's a lot going on. We have reconciliation week. We have a new Pope. I want to talk to you about Joe Biden and John Fetterman. Okay. So just like I'm going to.
- [01:02]
Chris Cillizza
That's a lot. I'm ready.
- [01:04]
Charlie Sykes
Okay. All right. So the deal with China, is it a deal with China? Did Donald Trump blink? Have his Liberation Day now been followed by capitulation on tariff day? Your take?
- [01:16]
Chris Cillizza
I think so, Charlie. I mean, I want to know what you think too, but I mean, I don't. The thing is, is it was, it was never sustainable for China to have 100 plus percent tariff on all US imports and for us to have a hundred plus percent tariff on all Chinese imports, I mean, just not. It's mutually assured economic destruction.
- [01:38]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [01:38]
Chris Cillizza
Not just for those two countries, maybe for the world economy, given their kind of prominence in the world economy. So there was always going to be some kind of deal. But I just go back, like, look, what was it, six weeks? I don't even remember when Liberation Day was six weeks ago or something. Remember Donald Trump announced this, these reciprocal tariffs, including with China, because he said for two major reasons. One, we have to sort of wrench the trade situation in the world and the broader world economy back into a way that is more advantageous for the United States. And two, we're going to make so much money off of these tariff revenues that it'll make up for higher prices or any. Anything else bad. Well, I mean, that's clear. No economist thought that. No, no economist, nobody. Very few economists thought that that was going. I would say none, but very few thought that that would work. Tariffs don't really work that way. Trade wars don't really work that way. So it seems to me it's like he did what he has done his whole life, which is take an Extreme position, negotiate something that maybe is marginally better than where we started, maybe, and just declare victory. I mean, it's, you know, this is a guy who, you know, every bankruptcy he's ever had was because he was smarter than everyone else. You know, I mean, like, it's what he does. I always go back to. It's in I'm all shirts. In the Art of the Deal, he talks about creative hyperbole, you know, where he kind of takes what people. He knows what people want, and he kind of just exaggerates what they want and tells them that that's what's happening. And, like, he really hasn't changed that much. You know, like, if you read the Art of the Deal, it's all the stuff he does now. So I tend to think it's less than he wants to meet the eye. But, like, the, the, the situation was not sustainable. Not for China, definitely not for us.
- [03:37]
Charlie Sykes
And I mean, you know, this. The game of economic chicken and things were, you know, coming to a head. We had all of those, you know, empty ports, the container ships either not arriving or arriving empty. So something had to happen, right? Now, I do think that. I do think that he blinked. China did call his bluff on all of this. But I was asked just, you know, right before we started doing this on cable tv, so can Donald Trump claim victory? Well, of course he's going to claim.
- [04:01]
Chris Cillizza
Victory, because he's going to claim victory.
- [04:03]
Charlie Sykes
He always does. But, but he's. I mean, look, the arsonist can always claim that he's a firefighter, right? He starts the fire, then pulls out the garden hose and puts out a little bit of the fire and says, see, I am your savior. I've helped you.
- [04:16]
Chris Cillizza
I'm the one who called the fire department.
- [04:19]
Charlie Sykes
Francis, having set the match. Well, you still have the 30% tariffs, which is a big hit for consumers. Consumers are still going to have to pay that. There's still the uncertainty, but we'll have to see. I also think that I wish folks in the media would exercise a little bit more cautious skepticism about taking anything that comes out of the White House at face value. Like all the breathless commentary about the deal with the UK which then people found out later is not really a deal. It's kind of a framework of a concept.
- [04:52]
Chris Cillizza
And that's what this is, Charlie. That's what this is. I mean, that's why I'm always hesitant to sort of declare victory or defeat. Number one, because these trade deals, it's hard in the very near term to figure out who's gonna win and who's gon to lose. But also because these are frameworks of a deal. Right. This is not a deal. This is, you know, this is, this is him realizing that the economic and real world impacts of keeping 143%, whatever the hell the tariff was, keeping a tariff that high and was going to have impacts with, with his people.
- [05:26]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [05:27]
Chris Cillizza
And him looking for a way out. And he was, look, even if China was like, you know what? We're not going to give you anything and you're going to, you're going to, you're going to take all of our terms, he would have still declared victory. You know what I mean? It's not, he was always going to say, we got a great deal, just like he's going to say in the UK just if there's a deal with Vietnam, just if there's a deal with, with India. I mean, that's his M.O. it doesn't mean he's always wrong. But I don't think you could just. Well, just because he said it was good, I think you have to be very skeptical of that.
- [06:00]
Charlie Sykes
I completely agree. So Matthew Miller, who used to be the spokesman for State Department, tweeted out this morning, in exchange for getting nothing from China, we agreed to remove the gun we had pointed at our own head. We will continue to aim the gun at our own foot, however masterful negotiating. I think that pretty much sums it up. Okay. The other thing he did on Monday was he had been hyping this executive order which would lower drug costs. And I think there were a lot of people in. First of all, does the president have the legal right to just lower drug costs? I mean, parenthetically, I am old enough to remember when conservatives did not like central planners and price controls or, you know, again, when Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or Barack Obama, if any of them had done this, of course, every conservative in America would have said that socialism, this is socialism, government control. But he kind of backed off. And now it's just kind of a recommendation like, please will you lower the prices?
- [07:01]
Chris Cillizza
That's no.
- [07:02]
Charlie Sykes
That executive suggest.
- [07:04]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah, I don't know that he can do it. You know what I mean? And one thing I will say, and I think about this a lot, and I think you and I have talked about this offline. I don't know if we've ever talked about it publicly. But one thing that I really do think with Trump, this is not a good example of it, really, because I'm not sure if this means anything. It's like, we really want to get lower prices. I will say as a sidebar, my favorite quote, I watched some of Trump's like, press thing where he announced this. Hold on, I want to find this quote because it's amazing. So he's talking about Ozempic, right? The weight loss drug. And he, and he says, hold on, I've got in here, okay? He says, he's talking about a quote, unquote friend of his. This is how he describes him. Seriously overweight, he takes the fat drug. Rough guy, smart guy, very successful, very rich. It's just incredible. Like his descriptions of people. And then he just, then he says that the fat loss drug is not working for this guy. But that was, that was my favorite part of the whole prescription drug thing. So I'm not sure he can do it. Okay. But I do, I do think there's, I think of this all the time. And the plane, the Qatar plane thing is part of it too. It's like, I think we assumed for all these years, at least I did. I don't put words in your mouth. I assume like, well, the President can't do that. There's a law against that. Or can't monuments clause. You can't do that. But the truth of the matter is it's like in some places there are laws, but laws only work if you enforce them. But in a lot of, in a lot of these areas, it's like, oh, it's kind of a gray area because, like, no one's ever tried it before. Like, there's more gray area than I thought. I was talking to my friend Steve Vladic, who I know, you know, he's at Georgetown Law center, great, great constitutional law professor. And I was like, trump can't run for a third term, right? And this is like a month ago. And he's like, I mean, probably not. And I'm like, what? And my point is, it's just there's more gray area in all this stuff. And the real truth is no one has ever had the audacity to try to push it this far. And we are kind of through the looking glass a little bit. And I think with all these things, when you say, like, can he do it? I'm like, I don't think so. But we don't have any evidence of people trying it before.
- [09:19]
Charlie Sykes
I think this is the great revelation of the Trump presidency is how fragile all these guardrails were, how paper thin the, quote, unquote norms were. I remember in Trump 1, Trump 1.0, being on a panel with somebody who is explaining the independence of the Justice Department and how you couldn't do this and you couldn't do that. But if you listen carefully, it was because that was the tradition, that was the policy. And the reality is, we found out that a lot of the checks and balances are on the honor system, right? They sort of assume that you would have an honorable man or woman in the Oval Office. And so we don't have a system that really was designed for someone like a Donald Trump who is going to try all the doorknobs and he's going to try all, you know, press all the buttons and see what works. So that's one of the reasons why we're in this, you know, through the Looking Glass, that every single day we could use the term either unprecedented or uncharted territory. So, speaking of which, because you mentioned it, my favorite story of the weekend, the flying bribe, the winged Qatari gift, which now I wrote, of course, it's a bribe by Cutter. Trump knows it's a bribe. They know it's a bribe. Even the MAGA simps know it's a bribe. And yet, oh, and by the way, and his attorney general, Pam Bondi has said, no, it's completely kosher and not at all, you know, a violation of the Constitution. It's worth mentioning. And again, this is one of those. Take a deep breath. Pam Bondi, until recently, was pocketing $115,000 a month.
- [10:57]
Chris Cillizza
I need that kind of debt.
- [10:58]
Charlie Sykes
Registered agent of Qatar. We are in the wrong business, Chris.
- [11:02]
Chris Cillizza
Ma' am. $150 a month.
- [11:06]
Charlie Sykes
So. But Qatar has been buying up people, they've been buying up influencers, they've been buying up attorney generals, they've been buying up talk show hosts, they've been buying off universities, but they have really been focused on Donald Trump through various deals. But this jet is just like, give me a break. You know, what was the emoluments clause about? If not we're going to give you a jet, you can use it as Air Force One, but then it becomes basically your personal palace in the sky after you leave office. And, and it's like, everybody's like, use.
- [11:40]
Chris Cillizza
It for the rest of your life. It's yours.
- [11:42]
Charlie Sykes
Right? Well.
- [11:47]
Chris Cillizza
It'S pretty remarkable. One thing I found. So when I, when I got, when CNN laid me off, this is in late 2022, I needed a job and I was like, I'm not sure. I'm not sure journalism is it. So I went and talked to everyone in Washington about, like, communications firms, Lobbying firms. And I eventually was like, I don't want to do any of this. And thankfully, journalism has turned out. Independent journalism has turned out to work.
- [12:14]
Charlie Sykes
Are you saying you could have been a flack for Cutter? I mean, is this where you're going with this?
- [12:18]
Chris Cillizza
Is what I'm saying. This is one of the things I learned was, and I didn't know this and gosh, I've been in D.C. and in political journalism forever. I did not realize how awash Washington is in Gulf state money, Qatar, UAE and Saudi. I mean, it's, it would always come up in like weird ways. It would be like, how comfortable would you be working for a sovereign? You know what I mean? And you're like, what does that like? It is, I don't think anyone even really knows the extent to which that. Because it's exactly right. This, this $400,000 plane is not the spear million. Excuse me, $400 million plan.
- [12:58]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [12:59]
Chris Cillizza
This is not the tip of the spear been at this. They are seeding money in official and unofficial Washington in ways I have never seen before. And again, it's not a direct quid pro quo. But I said this this morning on my substack. You'd have to be frighteningly naive to think they're just giving it to you to give it to you. And Donald Trump is many things, but he is not frighteningly naive.
- [13:27]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
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Chris Cillizza
This clearly is. It's like the scene, the wedding scene in the Godfather. One day I will come to you and ask you a favor.
- [13:34]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [13:34]
Chris Cillizza
It's, it's not clear what that will be, but there will be an ask.
- [13:39]
Charlie Sykes
Hey, if somebody gave me a yacht, I mean, look, I mean think about it. If somebody gives me a gold plated super yacht and I'm very grateful and they come to me someday and ask for a favor. Yeah. I'm not going to throw them out. And by the way, who's going to give them the super yacht? None of the Saudis have to give them a super yacht. I mean there's, there's a super yacht in the.
- [14:03]
Chris Cillizza
How do you run up, how do you one up the $400 million palace in the sky? But I was talking every more, every Monday morning, Chuck Todd, former host of Meet the Press and I do, we, we talk, we do a like and we publish it. And he used the word numbness that there's a numbness out there. And I think that's totally true. And I thought of it last week. So last week I was like, you know What? On my YouTube channel, I do explainer videos sometimes. And I was like, I don't understand, like what the Trump family is doing with crypto. Like, I want to understand World Liberty Financial better. I want to understand the meme coin better. So I spent an afternoon sort of going through it and Charlie, I don't know if you've done this, but I mean, it's, I mean the grift is like right out in public view, they have, they have made.
- [14:55]
Charlie Sykes
It can't be that bad, right?
- [14:56]
Chris Cillizza
Billion dollars in the last six months on crypto. I mean, it's. And yet it's like no one really cares. And, and I don't know what to make of that. And this plain thing, somebody asked me like, well, what if, forget Biden or Obama, what if George W. Bush had done this, okay? A Republican president. And the point I made, like taking the taken, accepted this gift, this plane. And I was like, here's the thing. And this gets back to your kind of like gray area. No real bout, you know, like, it's more an understanding that it is a law, even though there is a law against this. But regardless, it's like George W. Bush, even if he was like, man, I would like a new Air Force One, he and his people would understand, like, well, this is a bridge too far. I mean, like, no, no one, even the people who are for us are going to be like, but the point is, is he have that shame or humility thing? And, and I also think, by the way, Charlie, and I think this is important too, I think he kind of thinks he's untouchable.
- [16:05]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, he does.
- [16:05]
Chris Cillizza
Republican controlled Congress. He's been impeached twice. He's been convicted of 34 felonies. He's been accused of sexual assault God knows how many times. And he's the President United States again. I mean, I do think there's an element to him. I'm not going to swear, but I wrote a while back, like, Donald Trump's basic view is I effing dare you. Like, basically that's his view of life.
- [16:25]
Charlie Sykes
No, I think that's the heart of it all. I mean, there's, there's a certain fuck you attitude toward the whole crypto scam. And then, you know, accepting this and, and when he gets the super yacht, which will be next week or something about it, and he thinks he's untouchable and maybe he is. Given, given, given, given, given the lay of the land. Now let me go over to your crypto.
- [16:45]
Chris Cillizza
This is a blatant violation of the emoluments clause. It just is. I mean, it's why the emoluments clause existed. I don't. Donald Trump, I don't. This is just that you can't do this. This is why it exists. And so if Congress doesn't do anything, and I suspect they won't, particularly with Republicans, maybe if Democrats take control 20, 26. But why do we have this? Why is this in the Constitution anyway?
- [17:16]
Charlie Sykes
And who has standing to do anything about it? Remember, there was that lawsuit, there was a case involving the emoluments clause involving the Trump Hotel, which now seems a kinder, gentler era. And it never went anywhere. But that was one of those moments where you realize that, you know, nobody really has ever litigated what the emoluments clause means or how you, how you enforce it, or who has standing to do anything about it. If perhaps they would have drawn the line there, we wouldn't be here. But here we are. Donald Trump is going to get that plane. Now, here's a couple of questions, though, and going back to your point about the crypto deal where they've increased their value by $2 billion, it is one of those things that's hard to understand because you keep thinking, okay, wait, it can't be that naked. It can't be that obvious, it can't be this grotesquely corrupt. But it is. The reason I think that people don't care is I don't think they fully understand it. So now the question is, yeah, the plane seems much easier to understand.
- [18:14]
Chris Cillizza
Oh, totally.
- [18:16]
Charlie Sykes
Does it matter that you have MAGA influencers who are wincing and going, okay, guys, we are like totally with you on everything else, but this is cringy, you know, to be accepting this plane from this country that is basically a slave state that has a long track record of funding Hamas and other terrorist organizations. Really, this is ugly with fur on it. Does that make any difference that it becomes a little bit more tangible?
- [18:44]
Chris Cillizza
Yes. Should. I mean, I don't know that it will. I would say, I think the problem with crypto, even though it is, it really is grift hiding. I mean, it's not even hiding. It's just grift in plain sight. People don't know what crypto is. They don't really understand it. They don't understand the blockchain. They don't understand bitcoin. They don't understand this Trump meme coin. They understand.
- [19:04]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [19:05]
Chris Cillizza
So it's very hard to explain. People aren't going to get engaged. But a $400 million plane that this country is giving is a little bit easier. And to your point, like Laura Loomer, who by the way said I will take a bullet for Donald Trump, thinks the plane is a bad idea. And if you don't think Laura Loomer has influence over Donald Trump, I would talk to former National Security Advisor Mike Walz. I know the former National Security Advisor Mike Walz. So I think it could, I don't know if you saw this. Right before he left, somebody asked him, you know, to the Middle east, somebody asked him about the plane and he, a reporter asked him and he said it's an amazing comparison. He said in golf, if somebody gives you like a gimme a five foot putt, you don't say no and putt it out. You take it. It's like, that's not apples to apples, man. Like in the pga, when you work on that Masters, when you're at the Masters, you don't say like, oh, you'll take that, but it doesn't even work in golf terms. But like, that's not the same thing. So it's like he seems dug in on it, but then he seems dug in on everything until he's not dug in on anymore. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's uniquely possible he gets off the plane in Qatar, wherever the hell he's landing first, which I don't know, but somewhere, you know, in 12 hours, and he says, you know what, we're going to pay for the plan or whatever the hell it is. Like he could. He's so changeable that it's like I. But this is a much it. The reason it's gotten as much attention as it has and the crypto, crypto stuff hasn't, is basically explaining in one sentence, everybody's been on a plane, everybody knows the plane is super fancy and everybody knows roughly like what the Gulf states are doing.
- [20:47]
Charlie Sykes
The thing about is the way it's structured. It is sort of the breathtaking fu aspect of this, that it becomes Air Force One. His bespoke Air Force One, okay, so somebody's going to save the taxpayers $400 million and we have a new Air Force One. Right? But it's not really Air Force One because.
- [21:05]
Chris Cillizza
No, no, no.
- [21:06]
Charlie Sykes
Because on January 1st of 2029, it goes to the library. Now, libraries don't fly, which means basically that it becomes his personal plane forever and ever and ever. That's the part where you go, okay, maybe Pam Bondi, who's pocketed all that sweet, sweet, sweet Qatari cash, thinks that's Constitutional. But I just think that. And what's going to be interesting is when they start asking Republican senators and congressmen, what do you think about this? Because their constituents back home, I think probably are wincing. And the fact this comes up and again, look, look, I've been doing this. You've been doing this for a very long time. And we all do the. It ought to make a difference, but it probably won't make total difference. Totally the juxtaposition of the, you know, you don't really need more than $2 or 5 pencils and then, then getting this lavish, you know, airplane. I sense that even he understands which.
- [22:01]
Chris Cillizza
Optics matter in politics.
- [22:03]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and he seems okay. You, you watch this is the drug thing part of his, like, I need to get my populist mojo back a little bit. Remember the fact that he was even floating the idea of tax increases on rich people?
- [22:18]
Chris Cillizza
Probably. I mean, what's so hard? And I want to know what you think about this, because I've struggled with this for a decade now. What's so hard with him is the same people who hate Donald Trump on the left also ascribed to him this kind of like strategic genius. Like, oh, he's only doing this so you don't look over here. He's only. And I'm like, you see, like I, because I remember up there the 2016 election, one of the sort of prominent narratives and it was definitely more on the right at that point was, see, he's playing three dimensional chess. And you idiots just don't grasp it.
- [22:57]
Charlie Sykes
Was the Rush Limbo.
- [22:58]
Chris Cillizza
He always knew what he was doing. And I was like, okay, I thought Hillary would win. Trump won. Let me, let me spend three to six months of his presidency trying with an open mind to say maybe this guy is operating a different level. And you know what? The truth is, he's not. There is no master plan. And that's what I struggle with is like every day I remember, oh, the Alcatraz thing is a perfect example. Which now feels like a month ago. But remember we were going to reopen Alcatraz and I was like, do I talk and write about this? Because I think it's important to say, like, this is never going to happen. This would be a multi billion dollar like this, this isn't going to happen. It's like, Gavin Newsom's not going to, it's not going to happen. Or do you ignore it? And so I talked about it because I'm, I talk about what I'm interested in basically. And all these people all these people were like, he got you again. And I'm like, did he get me? Like, I think he just says stuff like the idea on the left. It's so funny to me because they both hate him and think he's a. But then also think he's like this master manipulator of like, well, he's throwing this stuff up. And I'm like, I just, I haven't seen the evidence that the guy is operating off of this, like, okay, 50,000 foot strategic view where he's like doing. He's manipulating all of us. And he's sitting back, the puppeteer, like, Like, I just, I haven't seen it.
- [24:21]
Charlie Sykes
Now this, this is the hard part. And you have to kind of. I have the same toggling back and forth between, you know, thinking that he's just, you know, it's his ID and his inst. Every single day. And of course, you know, he thinks of every single day as is basically a sweepstay, right? I mean, he's the executive producer and he has to win each news cycle, so. Each news cycle. So Alcatraz was one news cycle and then you completely forget about it. But on the other hand, the way I've been trying to square this circle is he's not a great strategic thinker. He's not playing four dimensional chess, but he has this reptilian instinct. And he will go to that reptilian instinct which has served him. But Also in Trump 2.0, he does have people like Russ Vogt who actually do have a master plan. Stephen Miller concept. Yeah, these guys, you know, and Steve Bannon, I mean, these guys actually do have. He's not in the administration, but I mean, they have a vision of how to do things. So you have these, this. The contrast between people with a plan. Donald Trump, whose mind is like ferrets in a cage running around.
- [25:29]
Chris Cillizza
It's just whoever said the last thing to him is what he thinks.
- [25:32]
Charlie Sykes
Exactly. Somebody, you know, some, you know, somebody with their face filled up with Botox at Mar A Lago suggests something and it comes out the President's mouth the next day. I mean, you see this almost every single day. And then you have his government, you know, he staffed the government with basically people he's seen on television. You had a piece last week about it is true. It's become. It's gone from being sort of a cliche to joke to, like, this is pretty amazing how the Fox News pipeline has become, you know, the government. So you may have some strategic thinkers, but then you have the, you know, just this. I'm not gonna use that term, but, you know, the fact that. What was your reaction when you heard that Jeanine Pirro was going to unlock.
- [26:21]
Chris Cillizza
I mean, it's, it's. I still remember that I was given a speech. I can't remember who it was too, but I was giving a speech to some health care group. This is October last year. And like, I took questions at the end. And this one, this was all like, top executive type people. And this one, I think it was a woman. She, like, she kind of like hesitantly raised her hand, like she was a little embarrassed to ask. And she was like, robert F. Kennedy couldn't be the HHS secretary, could he? And I was like, oh, he absolutely could be. Like, the point is, is like, it is almost beyond parody. Like, it's what I thought of. It's what I thought of when he announced Matt Gates as the Attorney General. Yeah, well, okay, that's just trying to be a troll. Like, is he legitimately trolling? Like, is that the point to, like, make the media and the left go insane? And then. That's the whole point. Like, there's nothing beyond that. It's wild. I mean, look, I remember when Jeannine Pero ran for the Senate. I mean, like, you know, she was. He. He talked about Jeanine Pirro today. His. His stuff is so fascinating if you listen to it. So Dr. Oz was there and at this prescription drug signing and who's now, I think the Centers for Medicaid and Medicare head. And he's like, he's. He goes into this extended riff about how Dr. Oz was a very popular doctor, but then he started a TV show and no one liked him anymore. And then he, I mean, with Dr. Oz is just like. It's like the Chris Christie standing behind him with the Curb youb Enthusiasm music. And then, and then, then he starts randomly talking about Genie and Piro, who's not there. But he's like Jenny and Piro, one of the high most highly respected lawyers in the country. And then she went on TV and she's. She. Then she got a bad reputation. I mean, it's just like, it's just fascinating to listen to how his mind works, like in that way. But yeah, the Fox News thing. I mean, look, Jen Psaki is a host on msnbc. Yes. George Stephanopoulos worked in the Clinton White House and now is a host on this Week. There are lots of Democrats. I'm not going to try to argue. There are a lot of Democrats who have become media Stars. What is remarkable to me is. And again, he's just so damn blatant about it. He doesn't pretend like the heads of these, these, These big jobs. He doesn't pretend like what's important is a resume for that job or you've done a lot of policy thinking or your respect. No, it's entirely. Can do you look good and can you present well on television? Because he thinks that is the core to how you succeed. It's just. I mean, it's. It's fascinating.
- [29:02]
Charlie Sykes
It's crucial.
- [29:03]
Chris Cillizza
Understanding his mind, unapologetic about it. It's.
- [29:07]
Charlie Sykes
But that, but that is a window in his mind, right? That. That is all.
- [29:11]
Chris Cillizza
That's the most important thing. That is the most important thing. I mean, I remember, and I know you do, too, Charlie. Like, after he got elected in 2016, do you remember talk about producing a reality show every day. Remember how every day from, like, November 8th to the end of the year, it was people coming into Trump Tower and they. They do a little press conference, and then it was all a reality show. It's all a reality show, and he is executive producing and starring in it every single day. That has never changed, and it will never change. And that's why Jeanine Pirro makes perfect.
- [29:43]
Charlie Sykes
Sense in that world. Okay, so, yes, it occurs to me you do a thing on your substack where you go through Donald Trump's, you know, either his speeches or his interviews, and you go, Here are the 36 things that you need to know. Oh, wow. Which tells me that you actually sit and listen to these and you do them. So.
- [30:05]
Chris Cillizza
And read it.
- [30:05]
Charlie Sykes
Give me your insight. Because there are not a lot of people who probably actually do that. So, you know, again, what is this done to your brain? Or do you have some insight into watching? Because I sometimes will look at some of those stream of consciousness and you sort of get lost in the middle.
- [30:23]
Chris Cillizza
Oh, yeah.
- [30:24]
Charlie Sykes
And. And the medium, I'm sorry to go, but I mean, I think the media has a hard time catching up with it. I know you probably commented on this, which is that they'll quote, they'll find some little nugget of, like, coherence and they'll report on it. Whereas if you actually read what he says, you go, oh, my God, what is going on in his head? So what is going on in his head, Chris?
- [30:45]
Chris Cillizza
I think it's.
- [30:45]
Charlie Sykes
What have you learned?
- [30:47]
Chris Cillizza
Two points. First, I think I always have said that Donald Trump is sort of an asymmetric challenge, both from a. In a political context, running against him, whether you're a Republican or Democrat or covering him. So to your point, in 2016, the wake of 2016, and I was, I had gone to CNN by that point, what was the criticism of cable and media more generally? You platformed him, you showed the empty platform and then you ran his whole speech and you gave him all this free media. And I don't think that was unfair. But what's fascinating to me now is I think the pendulum is swung in the opposite direction, where it's like people, the media companies are so afraid to give him that platform that they do exactly what you said, which is like, take a line from a speech where you're like, well, that makes some sense. But they don't run the whole speech where he's just, I mean, he is all over the place. His mind, it is all. It's not all, but when he is not on the prompter, it is basically free association. But also, like, I've compared him to either like a borscht belt comedian or the Eagles. Okay? And I, and I mean, and I think comedians are actually a useful way to think of Trump. So let's say a comedian is going out and it's going to start a national tour. They'll do a couple local shows in their area and try their stuff out and see, like, this works. This doesn't work. If it doesn't work, they take it out. If it does work, if it kills, they move it up in the routine. Right. I mean, right. That's kind of him.
- [32:24]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, right.
- [32:25]
Chris Cillizza
It's like, it's, he doesn't have very few politicians who get to the super high levels. Like, he have, have like 100 beliefs they won't change. They usually have like three beliefs that they won't change. He doesn't have any beliefs that he won't change. So it's, it's entirely what people like to hear. And that's why I, compared to the Eagles, it's like, man, they're going to play Hotel California on that reunion tour because people are going to go bananas for Hotel California. And so, like, that's what you see when you listen to him. He's doing, he's getting in between the same staged bits he uses all the time because they work. That's the only reason people cheer. And in his view, people cheering means it's good.
- [33:07]
Charlie Sykes
Isn't how we got the. Isn't that how we got the. I'm going to build a wall in Mexico. We'll pay for it. I mean, going back into the Midst of time here, it was basically acknowledged that, you know, he just threw it out one day, and the crowd absolutely loved it. So he figured he was going to use it over. Okay, so where do you fall on this? On the spectrum of. And I'm. I'm agnostic on this. On the spectrum of. We ought to talk about his cognitive decline. We can get to Joe Biden in a moment.
- [33:35]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah.
- [33:35]
Charlie Sykes
Because there are people who say that. Why is the media not pointing out cognitive decline now? You spend a lot of time following that brain. What do you think?
- [33:43]
Chris Cillizza
Yep. Let me make one point on your Mexico point. I would urge everyone, go back and read. You can. It's easily. You can watch it or read it. Go back and read the transcript of his first speech ever. Right. He comes down the escalator at Trump Tower and he gives a speech. And look at what point in that speech is the stuff on immigration in Mexico, sending rapists and criminals. And I'm sure some people, too. It is not the top of the speech. It is way down in the speech. Because it's exactly your point, Charlie. He didn't know what he had. But he's. The reptilian brain thing is useful. He's not stupid. He understands what people. So anyway, so that, I think, just affirms your point. I am. Here's what I'd say. I don't. I have been going through his speeches, reading and listening since 2016. And interviews, too. Not just his speeches, but interviews he gives, like Meet the Press and all that stuff. He's a little bit more inclined to go off on sort of flights of fancy, rhetorically. But I don't. I really don't see a decline in him. He's kind of always been like this. Now, if you go back and look at an interview in 1987 when once he, you know, it's almost 50 years ago. Right. So 40 years ago, you know, so he's in his mid to late 30s at that point. Yes. He's much more. He's a little bit more quick on his feet. He's. But I would say, like, that, to me, is like kind of a normal aging process. Like, show me someone who's quicker on their feet at 78 than at 38. I'm sure there's someone. But there aren't that many people. So I don't see a cognitive decline in him. I mean, I always remind people, this is a man who in 2016 said that Ted Cruz's dad might have been involved in the JFK assassination. This is a guy who in the 1980s, created a person, John Barron, out of whole cloth and called Page Six at the New York Post to brag about Donald Trump's virility. It was Donald Trump, like, seem to me, it's not like he was mitt Romney in 2016 and Donald Trump in 2024. Do you know what I mean? Like. And so that's why people say it, but I don't. I understand why people hate him. I get it. He doesn't seem to me significantly changed in his entire life. He's always kind of been this person. Do you think that's wrong?
- [36:14]
Charlie Sykes
No. You know what? I see this is the sort of the puzzle of Donald Trump's brain, and I try not to get too deeply into it, get in there too long and all that. You know what, you know, you're talking about, you know, people hating Donald Trump. I've been really consistent on this, and people know that I'm never Trump. Probably think I'm in that category. I've always said that Donald Trump himself does not bother me all that much because Donald Trump is Donald Trump. He is what he is. He's living his dream. He's doing his, you know, bullshit. What bothers me are the number of people that look at him and go, yes, that's. That's my role model. That's the man that God said. The people or the Republicans look at him and go, you know, we should give him power. That amazes me, continues to his ability to cow people. So I've been turning the lens on, okay, so Donald Trump flies around on his Jetty, married to a supermodel. He's got all this money and everything. Fine, whatever. But what is with you people looking at him going along with stuff that in Donald Trump, even in his reptilian imagination, he knows, okay, this is bullshit, but you're cheering it. Well, okay, what's worse? The fact that he's repeating the bullshit that people like, or the fact that people like the bullshit? You know what I'm saying?
- [37:28]
Chris Cillizza
I totally agree. It's like a. It's like. It's like an Inception question where. Where did this.
- [37:34]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, right. Exactly right.
- [37:35]
Chris Cillizza
You know, one thing that I've been thinking about, and I have to write this, but I. I continue. You know, I think a lot of people, if you say, like, what's the most important election in the last 25 years? They'll probably say 2016. Some people might say, oh, wait, with Obama. But I think. I think with Trump getting elected, they won't. They'll say 2016, because it was such a surprise. Right. Everyone thought Hillary was going to win. Trump wins. I actually think 2024 is much more important. It's for exactly a reason that you kind of hit on there, which is this. In retrospect, I now kind of understand the 2016 election, right? We had gone Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and we're going to go back to Clinton. People hated politics. They don't like political dynasties, they think everything is broken. And they don't really know that much about Donald Trump. Yeah, he's not. Maybe not their exact cup of tea stylistically or whatever, but he's an outsider. Okay, So I kind of understand that vote in 2024. It is impossible, given his ubiquity, it is impossible for you to go into that ballot box and be like, I just don't know what I'm getting with Donald Trump. No, it's impossible. This was a proactive vote for what he represented to your point. And that to me makes 2024 much more critical because that says there was no, like, well, maybe he'll be different. This was.
- [38:53]
Charlie Sykes
There was a lot of that in 2016.
- [38:56]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah, this is. I, I want that or I want that more than I want the alternative. You know, I may not want either of them, but. But I want that more than woke communist, leftist, trans Kamala Harris vote. And that to me makes 2024 more important for exactly what you're talking about, which is it holds a mirror up to. To us and says what you thought America was not what a majority of people think America is.
- [39:25]
Charlie Sykes
No, I agree with you radically on all of this, because I remember in 2016, there was a lot of delusion. There were a lot of people who thought that he was a successful businessman or that he would become normalized or that, you know, that a lot of this was. He was joking about it. In 2024, there was no illusion about who and what he was. You got the Trump in full campaign. And I keep quoting, quoting David from. Because I think he's absolutely right. The first time around, you could think, okay, you accidentally mix the Quaaludes and the tequila, man. Maybe that was a. That was a mistake, okay? You're never gonna do it again. Okay? But in 2024, mixing the Quaaludes and the Tequila was a conscious choice. And the rest of the world now looks at, you know, the United States and goes, you know what? That's, you know, they got a real serious problem here. Okay? So since we're on this issue of cognitive decline or whatever, One subject that I have not talked about on the podcast, mainly because I just haven't gotten to it, is the whole John Fetterman story and this weird spin that's taking place. Okay. People know the background, you know, the in depth story based on name sources. Ben Terrace writes this story.
- [40:42]
Chris Cillizza
Really? And I used to work with Ben, Great reporter. I worked with the Washington Post together. Exactly what you would want in a reporter. And that's why I believe what's in the New York magazine piece.
- [40:51]
Charlie Sykes
Right, okay, so then now you're having the spin on the right people saying, well, this is a hit job because John Fetterman has become too pro Israel or anything. It's like, wait, you know, well, give me your take on it, because it sounds bad. And if half of it is true, we have a real problem on our hands. And. And it's kind of a reminder to me that we have a problem of dealing with people in power who have real serious problems.
- [41:20]
Chris Cillizza
We do.
- [41:21]
Charlie Sykes
We can get to Biden in a moment. We had that one congresswoman who apparently just completely disappeared. Yeah. And now we have a key United States senator who. So tell me what your take is. What's going on with John Fetterman and why he's getting this attention now? Is it some left wing plot? What's happening?
- [41:42]
Chris Cillizza
It's so hard and I don't want to conflate. Yeah, I don't want to conflate it. But like, I do think my thinking, and a lot of people's thinking is colored by the Biden stuff. I've got. I've not read this yet, but I got a copy of this right here from Jake.
- [41:55]
Charlie Sykes
You got it? Okay. So original sin.
- [42:01]
Chris Cillizza
Again, Fetterman does not equal Biden. Fetterman is not.
- [42:04]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [42:04]
Chris Cillizza
82 years old.
- [42:05]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [42:06]
Chris Cillizza
Biden has not had mental health issues, etc. But it, I just think it's really hard because I think there are a lot of people and people on the right. I've talked about Biden and how I think I personally could have done a better job just pushing more. Not that there's some grand cover up by the media, but just pushing more and probably not taking their word for it, but there are people on the right who are like. And there are people on the left about Trump to what we just talked about. Like, why don't you say he has dementia? Why don't you say he has Parkinson's? I'm like, I don't have like, number one, I'm not a doctor. Number two, I've never Examined him, even if it was a doctor. And number three, like, there's a different bar to random person, left or right, shouting on Twitter that the current president or the last president had dementia. And like the New York Times reporting it, like, and there should be a higher bar there. So I really. Same thing with Fetterman. It's really hard, right? Because I do think with Fetterman, I think some liberals are disappointed because they thought they were getting Bernie Sanders right. When he went one iconoclastic stick it to the man. You know, people versus the powerful. And they weren't. I don't want to say they were getting Joe Manchin, because I don't think Fetterman is Joe Manchin in terms of belief system. But they were getting someone who even way back in Braddock, Pennsylvania, where he was the mayor and certainly his lieutenant governor, was unpredictable ideologically. I think that's why people were drawn to him. So part of me is like, Fetterman has always been miscast a little bit. Some of his own doing, some of it. Not at the same time. Like, I'm with you. I don't know how you read that New York Magazine piece. And look, I've said this before. Adam Jentelson, who was Fetterman's chief of staff, who's the main source of that piece, Right. Without Adam Jentelson, that piece does not get written.
- [43:51]
Charlie Sykes
Okay. People seem to understand this is not anonymous sources. We have a name source. It used to be Fetterman's own chief of staff. Adam is very, very well known in Washington, D.C. in the Senate. Right. He's written about the Senate. He's considered a credible guy. Okay, I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Just a little bit of background.
- [44:12]
Chris Cillizza
No, no, no. He. And I think he would say this, he hates me. And he has been nothing but an asshole to me throughout my whole career and his whole career when we worked, when I covered Harry Reid. So I'm not pro Adam Gentleson.
- [44:24]
Charlie Sykes
Okay? Hmm. Okay.
- [44:28]
Chris Cillizza
Why would he do this if he wasn't legitimately concerned? Because to your point, he isn't. Whether I like him or not is not the point. He worked for Harry Reid. He ran communications for Harry Reid. Harry Reid's deputy chief of staff. He was a chief of staff for a senator. He's made plenty. He doesn't need to make. This is not some like 24 year old trying to make their name in Washington. He's like a real guy. So it's like, I don't know what he gains from doing, you know what I Mean, like, if you're, if you're in the. Like. Well, he's just out for himself, which is what Fetterman has basically said about him. He has a grudge. Well, I don't know what that grudge would be. And if any. If any part of what Adam said about Fetterman's behavior is true, and I think we know some of it is true. We know the confrontation on the flight with the pilot to Pittsburgh, where Fetterman refused to show that he had his seatbelt fastened, which we both fly a lot. You have to do that. I mean, I'm sorry. Like, if they ask you to show your seatbelt, you show this, right? We know he rear ended a woman driving his car. And, And. And that the Washington Post did a big, deep dive on this, and he's had a series of distracted driving and speeding incidents. We know he had this thing AP reported a week or two ago, this confrontation where he was. He was in with this group, meeting with the group, and said, why does everyone hate me? So it's not just Adam's word, these other things that seem to bear it out. And I just. I don't know, man. Like, I. I kind of just feel like there's something going on there that doesn't feel right. And this is not a Democrat or a Republican thing. He had a stroke. He was in Walter Reed. He was an impatient for Walter Reed to deal with depression. And I have talked many times about my own anxiety issues and my own struggles with mental health illness. I'm, I'm, I. I am a John Federman fan, not for what he believes, but for his willingness to be public about his struggles. I think we need more of that. So I'm not, like, out. I'm not like. And Connor Lamb needs to primary him in 2028. Like, I'm not any of those things. But. But what I have seen both in that story and in his public behavior is worrisome. I mean, I don't. I don't know how else to conclude.
- [46:37]
Charlie Sykes
I'm not saying.
- [46:39]
Chris Cillizza
But it's worrisome.
- [46:41]
Charlie Sykes
You know, I actually would go beyond that and saying, if, if, if these stories are true, then. Then he probably should leave public service and take care of himself, and the people who love him should make sure he takes care of himself. But, But I think what's. Again, you know, because we are. We live in this toxic partisan world, watching all of the Republicans now come out and defend him. So are Republicans actually making a play, thinking that they can use this vulnerability to get Fetterman to cross over. I mean, is that, is that because there, there, there seemed to be like a coordinated Republican senators issuing statements about lay off John Fetterman, which is weird.
- [47:21]
Chris Cillizza
And interestingly, interestingly, you have since seen a bunch of Democratic senators come out and be like, we just want to get him the help he does, like trying to kind of counteract.
- [47:30]
Charlie Sykes
Nice.
- [47:30]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, politics is a shitty business. I mean, you know, it's like, I've been in it a long time. It's like somebody said to me the other day about something, am I being too cynical? And I said, you know, I don't want to be this guy, but I don't think it's possible to be too cynical about politics. I've seen it up close for a really long time. So, yeah, I mean, I think they are trying. Look, 55 seats is better than 54 seats. I mean, it's not complicated. That's, to me, the whole thing, it's like the way that it has become a political football, which I do think the guy is. I mean, he has had documented mental health struggles. I don't know if he's in the midst of one now, but his behavior would suggest to me it's again, worrisome. I just wish it wouldn't be a. We need to. On the left, we need to primary him in 2020 because he's not a real liberal. And on the right, let's recruit him because even if he is in a mental health crisis, that's one more seat for us. You know, it's a zero sum game stuff. I think it's why people hate politics. You know, I get it.
- [48:32]
Charlie Sykes
Speaking of things that people hate, you and I both encountered folks who really hate it when we talk about Joe Biden and, oh, gosh, we didn't move on. And I do get that. Given everything that's happening right now, the last thing on earth I want to do is re litigate what happened last time. And I have a lot of thoughts about all of that, but I have to admit that you. You punch. You hit one of my buttons. Last week, Joe Biden emerges from his retirement. And I thought it was good that he calls Trump out and he does give that speech and everything, but then he's on a rehabilitation tour. He goes on the View with his wife. With his wife. And there were some lot of cringy moments, but you pointed out that he threw Kamala Harris under the bus. Talk to me a little bit about that, because this is where it's like okay, you. I know people are saying, move on, don't talk about this, but at this moment, you know, and it does feel like Joe Biden's doing this because of these books that are coming out.
- [49:31]
Chris Cillizza
He is. He's trying to prep. Yes, yes.
- [49:35]
Charlie Sykes
But talk to me about the. And because the Kamala Harris thing seemed particularly gratuitous and not helpful at this particular moment.
- [49:44]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah. I mean, look, I'm a believer that you. In order. Democrats are out of power at the White House, the House, the Senate. They have. They have a minority of governorships in the country, and they control a majority of the minority. Excuse me, of the state legislatures in the country. They are. They are close to powerless. And my belief is when you were in a situation like that, you can't just say, or you shouldn't. Doesn't mean you can't, but you shouldn't just say like, yesterday is the past. We're not talking about the past anymore. I think you have to understand, okay, what the hell happened?
- [50:16]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [50:16]
Chris Cillizza
Really?
- [50:16]
Charlie Sykes
Why are you here? Yes.
- [50:18]
Chris Cillizza
How did we get here? Because if you can't understand how you got here, it seems less likely to me that you'll be able to fix it. That's my basic view. That plus the fact that seems self.
- [50:27]
Charlie Sykes
Evident, by the way.
- [50:29]
Chris Cillizza
I know. I mean, every day that I ever mentioned Biden, people scream, move on. No one cares. Donald Trump is Hitler. And I'm like, look, Donald Trump can be doing a bad job as president and Joe Biden could have cost Democrats the White House. Both of those are not mutually exclusive. Anyway, the other thing I'll note about why it's relevant now is Kamala Harris is actively deciding whether or not to run for president in 2028. Okay. Or to run for governor of California in 2026. We know this. Okay. So, yes, he goes on, and he's done this before. And I can't believe he does this, he says effectively, like he wasn't surprised that she lost. And he gets out of that. That quote is terrible. Right. Obviously. But he tries to get out of that by saying because Trump ran a sexist campaign. Now, again, I think overly simplistic to say the only reason that Donald Trump won was because Kamala Harris was a mixed race black woman. And Donald Trump explained that, of course people. There were people who didn't vote for her, because of course, I don't think it was 77 million people. But okay, so he says that. And then Alyssa Farah Griffin, who we, you and I both know, she asked in the nicest Possible way? She asked. This was not like a gotcha interview in any way, shape or form. She says to Biden, you've said in the past, and he has, you think you would have won the election had you stayed in the race. Okay, now, do you still believe that? That's basically the question he does not say. Yes, I still believe that. Okay. To be clear, I watched the tape a bunch of times. What he says is, he says, what about those 7 million votes? So what he's referring to, that's his immediate response. What he's referring to is he. He's wrong about the math a little bit, but I know what he's talking about. He gets 81 million votes in 2020, and Kamala Harris gets about 76 million. So it's 5 million votes. But that's what he means, that delta of votes, which suggests no. Joe Biden believes. Which is he would have. He thinks he would have won and she would have lost. And I always said. I think I've said this for a while now, I was convinced that one of the reasons that Biden stayed running. Now, the biggest reason Joe Biden stayed running in 2024 was because he loved being president. I mean, let's be honest. He spent his entire life trying to be president. He had become president, kind of walk away. But I think a secondary reason was he did not and does not believe that Kamala Harris could win the presidency. And he knew that if he had gotten out, she was the very likely nominee. Black woman, vice president, United States. And I think he's just making that clear. And it is such a bad look, like you want to talk about all the great shit you did. I understand you don't want the last chapter of your book to be. I was pushed out by my party after a colossally bad performance that affirmed everyone's doubts that I was too old to be president. I understand that. I wouldn't want that either. I didn't let. I didn't go lay down on the floor and never do anything else after CNN laid me off because I didn't want the last story of Chris Eliza to be. And then CNN got rid of him, and he disappeared forever. I get it. I get wanting to write another chapter, brother. Like, I. My point is, is like to. To say she wasn't surprised she lost and to basically say I probably would have won, which, by the way, is factually inaccurate. I mean, he was losing before the debate. Joe Biden was losing to Donald Trump, and he had a 38% approval rating in Gallup if you think that that debate would have made things better in the long run, then you. I mean, I can't help you. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you and I fundamentally disagree about how politics works. He would have. He was losing before the debate. He would have lost maybe badly. And by that, I mean an 8, 9 point loss if he had stayed in the race. So he's trying to rewrite history, but he's doing at her expense, which to me is kind. I mean, if I'm Kamala Harris, I watched that View interview, and I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, like, really?
- [54:15]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Okay, so, you know, the point you made before, I wanted to revisit that. Because if, in fact, you regard you listeners regard Donald Trump and MAGA as an existential threat to the country, then having discussions about what will it take to beat them or come back is not only not a distraction, it is essential. How did we lose to this guy? How do we avoid making the same mistakes? And one of the lessons I've learned is that anytime there is this chorus of voices saying, shut up. Do not talk about X, Y or Z, then what you're doing is you're essentially saying, I don't want a reality check. I want to hear what I want to hear. I want to be enclosed in my bubble. And the don't talk about Joe Biden's age, which, by the way, this was a constant from 2021 to 2024. Every time I would bring it up, I remember having these conversations saying, literally, you cannot have a conversation with any voter in America without Joe Biden's age coming up. But if you mentioned it on a podcast or you wrote about it, you were inundated with people saying, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up.
- [55:31]
Chris Cillizza
You're creating the issue. You are.
- [55:33]
Charlie Sykes
And I said, which was not true at all.
- [55:36]
Chris Cillizza
Majority of the public for years thought he was too old to be president. The idea that people like us if. Well, if you didn't talk about how old he was, you can see how old he is. Use your eyes.
- [55:47]
Charlie Sykes
So the danger there is you've seen now, because I do think that the failure to confront that is one of the reasons we have Trump. So the argument that you need to shut up is an argument to say, we need to have this bubble. Bubbles are dangerous. The last thing Democrats and the left need is to create another echo chamber where they don't talk about things like, for example, at some point I'm gonna say, you know, nominating Bernie Sanders or something like, Bernie Sanders is gonna get you President. J.D. vance. I'm just saying this, and people. No, no, no, don't talk about that. We need to have this discussion.
- [56:23]
Chris Cillizza
Any.
- [56:23]
Charlie Sykes
Whether you're talking about an army or whether you're talking about a team, whether you're talking about a political party, you have to look at your warts. You have to look at the things you do right and the things that you do wrong. Because otherwise, if you don't do it, and you made this point before, if you don't say, what did we do wrong? Then maybe you will repeat the same mistakes again.
- [56:43]
Chris Cillizza
It's likely you will.
- [56:45]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [56:45]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah. I mean, I just, Yeah, I. My frustration, because you know, the other thing that just goes with, with all of this is like, okay, Biden, Biden was too old. We know it. Move on, it doesn't matter. Like, he didn't win. He wasn't even the nominee. And my view is like, okay, let's just, I don't want to do too much. What about ism? But let's just put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say Donald Trump was in his second term from 2020 to 2024. Okay? And in a debate with AOC, whoever, you know, in the 2024 campaign, he showed signs of significant aging issues. And there were a bunch of stories that had come out both before, but especially after that debate where it was clear that people close to him were shading the truth at best about what they had observed about him. Do you think that at this point, May 2025 Democrats would be like, you know what? Donald Trump, he's not. He's a two term president. He's not even around anymore. We don't need to worry. Who cares? Yesterday? Of course not. Nor should they. That's my point. Nor should you. Because this man, Joe Biden, was president, United States for four years and wanting to be president for another four years. And he and his party and lots and lots of Democratic elected officials went around trying to shame every single reporter or even, I'm not a Dean Phillips guy, but Dean Phillips, who was trying to say, like, look, this is a massive gamble we're taking. They went out of their way to shame you. And now the truth is that they at some level knew that to me is a massive, important story in our American political history. Not to mention what you said about, look, if you don't learn from what you did wrong and how this guy won, you're gonna get this guy again in 2028 in some form or another.
- [58:41]
Charlie Sykes
No, I see. I Agree. And, you know, having come from my background, you know, watching what's happened to, you know, the Republican Party into conservatism, you know, the question that we always have to ask ourselves, and I have to ask myself is, you know, why did we not see this? Why did we ignore this warning sign? What was it that prevented me from recognizing this? So I think that many of our, you know, many of the people listening know the danger and the deadliness of those, you know, hermetically sealed alternative reality silos what it's done to the right. And I guess my point is, don't fall into it. And the left. And the left cannot afford to do this. By the left, I mean the center, the, you know, coalition of the decent, the Democrats, whatever. Okay, one last question for you, Chris. Yeah, okay, duh. Pope. The Pope.
- [59:30]
Chris Cillizza
Love it.
- [59:30]
Charlie Sykes
That's all. That's my only question.
- [59:32]
Chris Cillizza
I am, I am a lapsed Catholic. I will. I was raised Catholic. My mother still goes to church four times a week. I will not go back to the Catholic Church. I can't get over the child sex abuse scandal is obviously bad enough. You don't need me to say that. This is sort of like your Donald Trump versus the people who applaud for Donald Trump. The way the priest behaved is obviously deplorable. The COVID up by the church more broadly, to me is the unforgivable piece. Right? Like, yes, there are people in this world who have these desires and act on them and that they're pre. Like, I mean, again, okay, but the COVID up, and I will say I was. My very small town, Marlboro, Connecticut, one of my priests, my, the priest I grew up with was one of those guys sexually abused kids. It came out later, not me, but sexually abused kids and was moved from Paris to Paris. So I'm not going to go back down that road. I am kind of looking for. I'm on a faith journey, but it's not going to end in Catholicism. Now that said, I think it's fascinating. I mean, it's the first time in 2000 years of Papal history that we have an American Pope. And I will admit to you, Charlie, this was not the time. Because, look, I was raised Catholic. My wife went to Catholic school her whole life. Like, we still follow this stuff. This was not the time that I thought that an American would be picked. It's 6% America, North America, 6% of the Catholic population. But the growth areas are South America and Africa. I just assumed you'd have someone. I know he has connections, right? But.
- [61:11]
Charlie Sykes
But big man, I hope.
- [61:13]
Chris Cillizza
I feel like. I know he wasn't chosen because of Donald Trump either way, but it is a fascinating. Two of the five most important people and most recognizable people in the world are now Americans. The American president, obviously, and the head of the Catholic Church. They represent very different visions of what America can be and should be in the world.
- [61:35]
Charlie Sykes
And counterpoint. See, that's the. That's what's so dramatic about it, is that now suddenly, you know, with Donald Trump was, you know, bestriding the globe as the ugly American, and he was America, and he was the most. And now suddenly there is this counterpoint. The Pope, who can again, present a different view of America to the rest of the world, but also challenge what Christianity means, what it stands for, with a credibility that I can't imagine anyone else on the planet would be able to have. And I agree with you. I mean, the more you read about what was going on in the conclave, his personality, the role that he played in Peru, there were a lot of factors.
- [62:18]
Chris Cillizza
Yeah.
- [62:19]
Charlie Sykes
And yet it's, you know, the world is not filled with coincidences.
- [62:24]
Chris Cillizza
No.
- [62:25]
Charlie Sykes
And the fact that you have someone who has a long track record of very passionate opposition to Donald Trump and a willingness to engage in controversies with Donald Trump, that he would emerge at this particular moment in history, just. I'm sorry, I'm not saying.
- [62:44]
Chris Cillizza
No, no. There are no consequences. There are no coincidences like that. I mean, I like this one. No, the comparison I always draw in this country is to the Supreme Court. Right. The Supreme Court famously is, you know, John Roberts is a big advocate of this. The Supreme Court calls balls and strikes. And they are. They exist outside of the political context now. I think we now, of course, know that's not true. They're human beings who. Who watch the news and read Twitter, probably. The Conclave is sort of, to me, sort of like that. It's like, okay, it's not supposed to be affected by external. It's just who's the right leader for the church. But they're all humans. They all have some sense of what's going on in the world, particularly in this moment where Donald Trump is trying to remake the world. And so I can't imagine he didn't play some role if it was, like, tight between two people. Like, maybe we do offer a counterpoint up.
- [63:33]
Charlie Sykes
Well, obviously not. It was not considered to be disqualifying for him. Him. I mean, they didn't sit around and go, hey, you know, we don't want to antagonize this guy, by electing this guy. What's interesting. And again, I am now way over my skis on this, but I do, I am fascinated by and I do know at least one of the cardinals and I go back a long way with, with Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who was the Archbishop of Milwaukee.
- [63:59]
Chris Cillizza
Yep.
- [63:59]
Charlie Sykes
And I think a wonderful human being, a great guy, at one time had been rumored that he would have been the kind of person that you might be the first American cardinal. But he's been one of those where he's played, he's been Trump curious and he's appeased Trump and he said some things that are kind of soul crushing for me coming from him. But some of the accounts would suggest that he played a very significant role behind the scenes as kind of a kingmaker or somebody that supports reported the new pope, Pope Leo, which would indicate again, levels of complexity within complexity.
- [64:36]
Chris Cillizza
Yes.
- [64:36]
Charlie Sykes
No one in that conclave, if they thought of him as an American at all and who knows what they thought of him as a Peruvian American or whatever, you know, thought. No, this is the wrong time to pick somebody who is a Trump antagonist. Now think about all the other institutions in the world that have been reluctant. Don't piss him off. Don't do this. Don't do this. The church did not take that position.
- [65:02]
Chris Cillizza
And I just, I, having done this for as long as I have in politics, there are no coincidences. And I think picking a pope has lots of politics in it. So it's just, it's just when somebody randomly, when Ruben Gallego goes to Pennsylvania just because, it's not just because people, it's because he's thinking about running. You know what I mean? No. No ambitious politician who's not from Iowa goes to Iowa randomly. It's the same, same thing no matter what they tell you.
- [65:30]
Charlie Sykes
Chris, Eliza, thank you so much for all of your, it's always such a.
- [65:34]
Chris Cillizza
Pleasure to talk to you. Thank you. Because you helped me in your writing and your talking help me every day with truly with kind of how to think about this stuff, how to balance some of the, the challenges. You know, I think this is, this is covering Donald Trump is not easy. I, particularly if you're like us and you're not just going to either be reflexively pro or reflexively anti every single thing he does. If you're going to try to, to, to look at it holistically, it's, it's very challenging and I don't always get it right by any means, but I'm, I'm thankful for folks like you who are willing to engage in the conversation, because I think it's super, super important.
- [66:13]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and I want to thank you because you've been kind of an encouragement in, as one of the pioneers on, with one of the pioneers for independent journalism on on Substack and sort of watching how you've done that, how you are writing that, that extra chapter, because I think we're both kind of writing that extra chapter, so totally. So thank you so much, Chris. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlay Sax. You know why we do this, why we're going to continue to do this? Because. Because now more than ever, it is important to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thanks.