To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes

Episode: David French: Free Speech, Cancel Culture, and the Kimmel Moment
Date: September 25, 2025
Guests: David French
Host: Charlie Sykes

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the Jimmy Kimmel "cancellation" controversy, broader questions about free speech in America, the nature and reality of “cancel culture,” the hypocrisy across the political spectrum regarding free expression, and pressing concerns about government overreach. The conversation then branches into the evangelical embrace of Trumpian hate, Donald Trump's unpredictable shift on Ukraine, and ends with a stark look at the TikTok national security saga. Throughout, French and Sykes dissect how moments like the Kimmel affair test—and sometimes reaffirm—American ideals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Kimmel Moment” and Cancel Culture Backlash

[01:51–05:30]

• Kimmel’s Monologue as a First Amendment Milestone: Jimmy Kimmel’s monologue gained over 9 million YouTube views after Trump’s attempt to get him pulled from the air. Sykes praises Kimmel for not groveling, describing his speech as “a win for the First Amendment.”
  • “He did not grovel. He was gracious. He addressed his comments...and made his monologue into a really powerful case for the First Amendment.” (Charlie Sykes, 04:22)
• Cancel Culture’s Tendency to Backfire: French notes cancel culture frequently catapults its targets to greater success, especially when it originates across party lines.
  • “It’s both miserable, oppressive and terrible and stupid and counterproductive at the same time.” (David French, 02:41)
  • The only cancellations that truly “stick” are internal to a given political group.
• Principles vs. Transactional Support: French and Sykes bemoan the erosion of principled free speech defense, replaced by opportunistic, partisan reactions.

2. Hypocrisy and Free Speech: Left and Right

[05:30–10:00]

• First Amendment Under Siege from Both Sides: Once defenders of speech, the right has embraced censorship when convenient; now the left, finding itself targeted, has swung back to libertarian rhetoric.
  • “The right was celebrating free speech five, six years ago...Then they get in charge and throw it all out.” (David French, 07:35)
• American Uniqueness and the Civic Necessity of Free Speech:
  • French challenges the notion that free expression is a mere cultural quirk, pointing to the American founding as a mandate to reconcile profoundly diverse beliefs and backgrounds.
  • “We have to look at this and say, this isn’t an American quirk. It’s indispensable to the whole thing...This is how we hung together.” (David French, 10:10–11:58)
  • Sykes: “This is the oxygen of the American idea...if you get rid of that, what is the alternative? Resolving your differences by force, by violence?” (12:37)

3. The Government’s Role: Private Criticism vs. State Power

[12:37–19:35]

• Megyn Kelly vs. Kimmel: False Equivalence:
  • Sykes explains how the critical distinction in the Kimmel situation is the use of “state coercive power,” not mere criticism or firing.
  • “There is a confusion between exercising judgment and criticism and the use of state coercive power.” (Charlie Sykes, 13:28)
• The Real Meaning of Defending Free Speech:
  • French: “You don’t just defend free speech for your friends or people who are perfect on the issue. You defend it for everyone, even those who never stood for it themselves.” (14:44)
• Private ‘Canceling’—Nuanced Cases:
  • French proposes a “rebuttable presumption of good faith”: Err on the side of free speech, but recognize rare cases needing intervention (e.g., open neo-Nazism in a diverse workplace).
  • “Professionalism and decency, yes. Indecency and unprofessionalism—no.” (David French, 18:48)

4. The Death of Nuance & Empathy in Public Discourse

[19:35–20:00]

• Nuance is often dismissed or mocked as weakness in contemporary (especially MAGA) circles.
  • “It's even an insult, Charlie. It’s an insult in MAGA evangelicalism. If you engage on nuance, they call you a nuance, bro.” (David French, 19:46)

5. Trump’s Threats and Confirmations—The Government’s Assault on Speech

[20:00–23:37]

• Trump’s Open Threats to Media:
  • Sykes reads a Trump post attacking ABC for Kimmel’s return, openly threatening government retaliation. French observes how Trump’s own admissions always outflank the clever denials of his defenders.
  • “The President of the United States, who controls the Justice Department, who controls the Federal Election Commission...he seems to be pretty much confirming that...he was very involved in ABC's decision.” (Charlie Sykes, 21:00)
• Pattern of Blatant Autocracy:
  • French: “Trump goes and says, nope, I did it. And then it’s crickets [from his base].” (22:37)

6. Cognitive Dissonance Among Evangelicals: Trump, Hate, and ‘Government Wrath’

[23:33–30:44]

• How Do Evangelicals Justify Simultaneous Cheers for Love & Hate?
  • French describes the dual morality rationale: Private forgiveness (Matthew 5 for the individual) vs. governmental retribution (Romans 13).
  • “Erica Kirk was in the individual capacity—forgiveness. Trump and Miller were in their governmental capacity as Avengers.” (David French, 25:24)
  • French explains why this is a misuse—true government justice should defend the innocent, not be a tool for vengeance.
  • Memorable quote: “The government’s role is not to avenge you against your enemies...it's to uphold justice. And what is justice, by the way?” (David French, 28:04)
• America’s Collective Responsibility:
  • "Who's the ruler here, Charlie? Who's the ruler? In Romans 13 he's referring to a Roman emperor. Guess who the ruler is in the United States of America. It's us." (David French, 29:35)

7. Trump’s Flip-Flop on Ukraine

[30:44–37:07]

• From Pro-Putin to Pro-Ukraine…for Now:
  • Trump’s erratic positions are partly explained by Sykes and French as a combination of Zelensky’s savvy “autocrat-whispering” and Putin’s transformation from cunning manipulator to embattled warlord.
  • French: “Trump dealing with Zelensky is going to be dealing with somebody who has spent his entire career dealing with vain autocrats...Trump dealing with Putin is a brick wall.” (David French, 32:01–35:37)
• Strategic Implications:
  • Trump’s fragile, inconsistent support remains dangerous for Ukraine, which needs a reliable, not mercurial, ally.

8. Putin’s Probes & NATO’s Readiness

[37:07–41:06]

• Russian Probing of NATO:
  • French outlines how Russia is testing NATO's responses, and is perhaps emboldened by more minimal U.S. front-line involvement.
  • “NATO is responding, but it's responding with the forces of its lesser powers...if you have extreme danger on the eastern flank, the tip of that spear should be American because we have the sharpest blade.” (David French, 39:20)

9. TikTok, Trump, and National Security

[41:06–50:01]

• TikTok as a National Security Vulnerability—and Trump’s Brazen Response:
  • After Congress passed and the Supreme Court upheld a ban on TikTok unless sold to U.S. interests, Trump is now single-handedly negotiating a deal that could put the app under the control of his own political allies—endangering national security for personal and partisan gain.
  • “If everything’s a scandal, nothing is...This [TikTok affair] is on the Mount Rushmore of awfulness.” (David French, 42:56–44:20)
  • TikTok’s algorithm is a potent potential disinformation weapon, and China can collect data on 170 million Americans.
• Hypocrisy and Lawlessness:
  • French points out Trump’s hypocrisy—he once tried to ban TikTok, now flouts the law for self-interest.
  • “He just says no to a law passed by Congress. No...goes out and negotiates a deal that...hands over control of that app to a coalition of his strongest political allies.” (David French, 47:33)
• The Persistence of Foreign Influence:
  • Even with Trump’s deal, Chinese influence and algorithmic sway may remain.
  • “Every single day that this TikTok ban is delayed, a certain amount of damage [is] being done to American national security.” (David French, 48:22)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Cancel Culture:

  • “Canceling was a business plan for people on the right...If you were canceled by the left, that would put your career in the right on a rocket ship.” (David French, 02:41)

• On Free Speech:

  • “We cannot look at free speech as a kind of an American quirk...it’s indispensable to the whole thing.” (David French, 10:00)

• On Private vs. State Power:

  • “Category error to conflate private firing with government coercion...You don’t defend rights only for people who have defended speech.” (David French, 14:44)

• On Nuance:

  • “It’s an insult in MAGA evangelicalism. If you engage on nuance, they call you a nuance, bro.” (David French, 19:46)

• On Evangelical Contradictions:

  • “The government’s role is to uphold justice, not avenge you against your enemies.” (David French, 28:04)

• On Trump’s Information Power Grab:

  • “You can’t separate this [the TikTok deal] from the effort to pressure Jimmy Kimmel or lawsuits against the New York Times...It’s all about consolidation of control and power over American information.” (David French, 47:33)

Important Segment Timestamps

• 01:51 – Kimmel’s monologue, Trump’s cancellation attempt
• 05:30 – Free speech’s partisan flip-flop
• 13:28 – Megyn Kelly vs. Kimmel: the government vs. private sector distinction
• 18:48 – Reasonable limits for private employers and speech
• 20:00 – Donald Trump’s direct threats to media
• 23:33 – Evangelical ‘dual morality’ and government vengeance
• 30:44 – Trump’s reversal on Ukraine, strategic implications
• 37:07 – Russia’s testing of NATO readiness
• 41:06 – The TikTok saga: law, national security, and Trump’s end-run
• 47:33 – Trump’s deal and the dangers of algorithmic control

Conclusion

This episode serves as a meditation—and warning—about the present and future of free speech in the U.S., the dangers of government overreach and politicized “canceling,” and the ease with which civic principles can be sacrificed for short-term partisan gain. French and Sykes’s dialogue is incisive and aided by frequent returns to first principles and the historical record. From the Jimmy Kimmel saga to the shifting ground of the Ukraine war and threats of technological autocracy via TikTok, the episode makes a compelling case: Defend bedrock freedoms now, or risk losing the foundation that holds American democracy together.

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