Charlie Sykes (2:57)

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Olivia Troye (5:05)

We've run over a thousand simulations. It can cost around $3ameal for a piece of chicken or a piece of broccoli, you know, corn tortilla and one other thing. And so there is a way to do this that actually will save the average American consumer money.

Charlie Sykes (5:22)

Wow. Happy days are here again. A piece of chicken, piece of broccoli. I don't think they sell them in pieces of broccoli tortilla and that one other thing to be determined. This is American greatness. Now, some of you may listen to this and go, well, what is she actually talking about? Maybe, you know, she's. Well, they ran thousands of simulations. But in terms of the question, is the Trump administration going to be able to pivot on this issue of affordability, Ladies and gentlemen, I'm suggesting that that was one of the weakest, you know, weakest efforts at spin that you will ever see. But you know, as you go into the weekend, you know, just know that you can have that piece of chicken tortilla, piece of broccoli, and something else to go with your sad two dolls and two pencil. So I'm sorry to say that that is not the top story of the week for that. Stay tuned. Okay, so Olivia, I tried to have a little bit of a palate cleanser before we dive into the feculence of the. No.

Olivia Troye (6:35)

What was that? I don't understand. Like, is that supposed to be relatable?

Charlie Sykes (6:41)

Yes, this is. You know, I have my finger on the pulse of America and I know that you want to know how expensive. Now, by the way, Brooke Rollins, this is not her first trip to the tone deaf Marie Antoinette rodeo. She actually, remember when there was a lot of concern about the price of eggs, she actually suggested, and I'm not making this up, she suggested, well, maybe people could raise chickens in their backyard.

Olivia Troye (7:03)

Oh, no. Yeah, she's a chicken coop lady.

Charlie Sykes (7:07)

I could see her doing. I can see Melania out back from the White House taking care of the chickens. Okay, so we have to talk about stories like that because of the moment that we are in. Donald Trump, by the way, congratulations to the President who finally got his Nobel Peace Prize. Did you see this? That Maria Machado, the leader of the opposition in Venezuela, goes to the White House and apparently a very, very emotional moment, turns over her Nobel Prize prize to Donald Trump, even though the Nobel committee is making it very clear that that is non transferable, that you can transfer the medal, but not actually the title. But Donald Trump doesn't give a shit whether it's fake or not, does he?

Olivia Troye (7:51)

No, he just wants the title. He just wants to be able to brag about it and say, okay, I got it. But, you know, he's not gonna let that go.

Charlie Sykes (7:58)

No, he's not gonna let it go, but okay. So this is one of those where I think kind of farce dances with tragedy. At least that's why I described it yesterday. You know, let's talk about her and the Venezuelan opposition. So at the very time that she's bringing him this gift, like, be nice to us. Donald Trump's head of the CIA is meeting with the Maduro loyalist who's still the acting president of Venezuela. Clearly a snub. They're calling it. The New York Times called it a snub to the Democratic opposition. I would call it a complete betrayal, throwing them under the bus. So Donald Trump apparently, you know, gets to keep, you know, I guess the thugs get to keep Venezuela, and Donald Trump gets to keep the metal in the oil. Right. I mean, it's not working, this particular payoff.

Olivia Troye (8:45)

No. And I wondered what was going to happen of Venezuela from day one, honestly. And the fact that right out of the gate, he just totally. You're absolutely correct. He threw the opposition. He threw that woman under the bus. I mean, the fact that he just got up there and was like, she has no support in the country. I mean, this woman, the reason she got the Nobel Peace Prize is because she has been literally standing in opposition position and has been in hiding and has faced all sorts of threats to her life along the way. Right. But when he did it, I literally. Charlie, I was watching it, and I was thinking to myself, here we go again. I lived this the first time around with Juan Guaido, when he threw Guaido under the bus, when one day, literally, we were in the Oval Office. He was the opposition at the time, when they were. That was the first Trump administration, when they were doing libertads for Venezuela, this is what they were saying. And Mike Pence was out in front, and I was his staffer for this. And I remember being in the meeting where suddenly Trump just changed his mind on Guaido. And he's like, he's weak. And we had literally been working for months to come up with the strategy, and in one day, it. It flipped. I mean, we literally pulled the rug out from under him. So, like, to see this happening again, I'm like, has no one learned from this, especially Marco Rubio, who is a big driver of this policy, that this is how it operates? And so Basically, yes. It's about oil, Trump's deranged perspective on oil. Because you've got oil executives saying, yeah, we're not in on this.

Charlie Sykes (10:13)

Yeah, it was kind of amazing.

Olivia Troye (10:14)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Charlie Sykes (10:16)

It's uninvestable. That meeting didn't go that well, did it?

Olivia Troye (10:20)

No, I mean, and we've known that, like, the oil executives have said this in the past. And so I just. It's very fascinating to watch these dynamics pay out and pay off, like, play out. But I'll say this. I think what's so upsetting is to see the people of Venezuela sort of see freedom in the distance from the horrible Maduro regime, and then we don't know what the aftermath looks like for them in reality. Right. I mean, we don't know what the future holds, because you're right, thugs are still in power.

Charlie Sykes (10:52)

It is not likely to end well. And by the way, here's like a footnote to this story. It's like a bizarre footnote to this story. There was a report in Semaphore about the proceeds from the oil that Trump has looted from Venezuela. And apparently millions of dollars, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars, are going to be put in various accounts. The main account is not in the United States. It's in Qatar. I mean, people remember Qatar. These were the folks that gave him the biggest winged bribe of all. I mean, let's go right out there, let's give him a $400 million Air Force One jet, by the way, people have kind of forgotten about that. It's gonna cost the taxpayers, what, about a billion dollars to fix up, you know, that monstrosity? So, anyway, you have this money going into an account in Qatar, and now I assume it's still under the control of the federal government, but who the hell knows? It's one of those stories where it's so bizarre, but it gets lost in the flow. But I'm trying to imagine any other politician of either party with kind of a massive offshore slush fund that they've gotten by invading another country. I mean, speaking of being, like, off the charts. Right. I mean, am I missing something?

Olivia Troye (12:03)

No. I mean, that's completely abnormal. I don't know how the Department of Treasury is, you know, stands by that, paying attention to what's going on here. But, you know, we are the rogue, rogue, I would say presidency now, where these sort of regulations and laws don't really seem to matter when it comes to these people at the very top. And I think. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right to call that out, though, because I think that's something that has gone, like, under the radar. And if anyone else did this, like you said, Charlie, can you imagine what Republicans would do if any Democrat had done this? Would never leave the headlines. They would be calling corruption.

Charlie Sykes (12:40)

You. You would have special. By the way, speaking of becoming a rogue state, and I think it was Jimmy Kimmel the other night and says, hey, you know, the fact is the United States has become a rogue state. Now, how do you define rogue state? I'm not actually sure, but we've become it. Speaking of which, I'm. The Europeans and the Danes are watching all of this as Donald Trump continues to be apparently serious. And there's part of my brain that is screaming like, you know, don't take the bait. He's just trolling. But I don't think he is trolling anymore. I think there is some brain bubble going on there that he actually wants to swallow Greenland. Or as the Danish foreign minister, the word he used was he is committed to conquering Greenland, this Nobel Peace Prize winner. So let's just talk about this. I mean, the weird part about it is he keeps talking about these Chinese and Russian submarines and battleships around Greenland, and everyone in the world is saying, no, they're not there. There are no Chinese ships. And by the way, even if there was some non. By the way, it's a non existent threat. But let's, let's just pretend for the sake of this conversation, because it's just a podcast, that there was a real threat. They are a NATO signatory. We have a treaty with them that allows the United States to do pretty much anything it wants. There is literally nothing that we could do in terms of defense that we're not allowed to do without basically blowing up NATO and conquering Greenland. I mean, this makes no sense to anyone.

Olivia Troye (14:03)

Well, and I think in this situation and in many situations, I would say right now, what is really horrible at this, we're the bad guys now, Charlie.

Charlie Sykes (14:12)

Yeah, Gosh, isn't that something? I think it was. Jay Nordlinger wrote an article that, you know, for years he'd push back against that idea of the ugly American. And then you wake up one day and we are the ugly American. But the story in Greenland is just. It's so bizarre and that people, you know, feel the need to, you know, go along with it. However, I don't know, is it irrational exuberance to think that the Europeans have figured out that you just can't, you know, necessarily just buy them off the fact that they're putting some military assets into Greenland as a deterrent. That's what something I said. If they're serious, this is what they will do. And then actually, to my surprise, they are, in fact doing that.

Olivia Troye (14:53)

No, I think about that NATO troops are going in just in case the United States does something like. That's a, that's the headline, right? I mean, and a headline that I never thought I would see in my. In certainly in my lifetime. And I think you're absolutely right. I am concerned about what they're claiming in terms of why this is necessary for the United States to do this. But I also am very well, well aware of Donald Trump's obsession. I mean, he has been obsessed with Greenland since the first time he was in the presidency, and clearly that hasn't waned. And back then, he had people in the room who were like, okay, stop with this crazy obsession. No, we're not going to take over Greenland. I think he's got everyone on board now, and we're seeing that sort of play out. And so I think, I don't blame Europe for being concerned and saying no, I think he might be serious. And we saw that meeting that happened this week where they basically said, we didn't come to a consensus, there's no agreement, and we're still very concerned about what the United States intentions are. I think that was very clearly stated. And I think as an American, it's just hard to sit here in our country, especially as a national security person, and sit there and say, we are the ones that are in the hot seat where the rest of the world is like, okay, we've got to figure out how we put the United States in a box and check them, because they're so unpredictable right now that we don't know what they're going to do. And we're going to have to defend each other against them.

Charlie Sykes (16:22)

I mean, you could, you could see the nausea on the faces of those diplomats when they came out of the meeting. I mean, they weren't, they're not amused by this. This is not. They are taking it seriously. But it is. And, you know, and part of it is, look, what do those talks, you know, look like? You know, they say, we want to take you over. And the, you know, the. Greenland says, we don't want to be taken over. I mean, what do you have to negotiate? They'll probably end up, I'm assuming, was just some sort of a deal to allow the United States to have enhanced military presence, but they've offered that already. That's already part of the treaty. And Donald Trump's not interested, by the way, that Reuters interview that he gave another one of these long, rambling interviews. What struck me about that was the number of times that Donald Trump said he did not care about the opposition to things he was doing, that he just didn't give a shit that he's kind of in the YOLO phase of his presidency. And he was specifically asked about the fact that polls show that only 17% of Americans would like to use military action against Greenland. And Trump just brushes off. It's a fake poll, and he doesn't care. When he's told about all the opposition to the investigation of Jerome Powell at the Fed, he says, I don't care. This has got to rattle people who think that, oh, don't worry, we'll be able to influence him, or there's some sort of a reality check on this guy. He's sitting there basically saying, yeah, I don't care what the people are saying. I don't care how much opposition there is. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do, and who's gonna stop me? I mean, it feels like he's in that mode right now. What do you think?

Olivia Troye (17:54)

Yeah, absolutely, I think. Yeah. I mean, he basically. He said that out loud to us. Right? Even with what. Where is the law? Where is the line for him in terms of the things that he does? And where he was like, well, it's my moral authority. Or. What was the quote where you said that lately?

Charlie Sykes (18:09)

Yeah, I remember that.

Olivia Troye (18:10)

And I.

Charlie Sykes (18:11)

That's the only thing that limits him.

Olivia Troye (18:12)

Yeah, he. The only thing that limits him is himself. And I think we're living that moment every single day, whether it's internationally, whether it's domestically, whether it's offshore accounts, whether it's deals going on with members of his family, I mean, cabinet members. I think he. He's, you know, back to that moment where he said, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and I'd get away with it. Like, I think that is the philosophy that he governs with. And so far, Charlie, I'm getting increasingly concerned that I don't know where the checks and balances are for this individual, because certainly, I don't really see it in Congress right now. And maybe they'll get stronger the more he becomes a lame duck, if you want to call him that. But I'm just hoping that that lame duck quacks out of the White House, you know, when his term is over. And I'm not convinced that this hold is going to let go.

Charlie Sykes (19:11)

Yeah, well, that's the big question, isn't it? I mean, that's that this is, this is the meta question is, are there any checks and balances? Are there any limits? I was on a cable show the other night where somebody came on and said, well, you know, there are some limits. I mean, there are still the political limits, you know, public opinion, elections and everything. And I thought, boy, I don't know. That doesn't really enhance my level of confidence right now, especially with Donald Trump continuing to. Now, maybe he's joking. I mean, I'm willing to concede there's a possibility the guy is joking when he says, why do we even have to have elections? What are those elections all about? The checks and balance? Especially when he's confronted with the fact Republicans in the Senate don't favor this. Only 17% of Americans favor. And he says, I don't care. I just don't care. By the way, we haven't had a chance to talk about the investigation of Jerome Powell at the Fed, which really is backfiring on him. I think it feels like he stepped on a rake or something on all of this. But somebody asked me about, what was that all about? Is it about the independence of the Fed? Yes, obviously. But it's also a reminder that to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And in Donald Trump's world, with this weaponized Department of Justice, everyone he doesn't like is a potential target of a criminal investigation. And I'm afraid we're almost getting a little numbed about this. You have to connect the dots. He's going after Jerome Powell. He's going after Elisa Slotkin. He's going after, I mean, make the long list of people that he is telling the Department of Justice, I want you to go out and get that person. And, you know, and it doesn't matter, by the way, whether or not they actually get a conviction or throw them in jail. Right. As I think, you know, all optics.

Olivia Troye (21:00)

All optics. Well, all.

Charlie Sykes (21:02)

But also fear and intimidation. You know, I ask listeners to, to, to think about. Imagine, you know, somebody coming to your house and saying, okay, you have to understand that you're being investigated. There's nothing to worry about. You're not actually going to go to jail. But, but you are going to need to come up with $150,000 for a lawyer, for the retainer for a lawyer. If, in fact, this proceeds, it may cost, I don't know, about $500,000. A trial would be in the millions of dollars. Now, for the average person, imagine what that does to your life, even if you never end up convicted, jailed, any of those things, how it can destroy your life. And I think people need to understand the whole point is this fear that he wants to inflict on people.

Olivia Troye (21:49)

Yeah, I think that's. That's absolutely correct. I think, you know what, what is very concerning, again, I feel like I'm using that a lot. I'm concerned about a lot of things, but we should be. Is the through lines are the fact that the Department of Justice is basically his own personal attack dog is how he's treating it. And that, that should really continue to alarm anyone, regardless of your politics. Right, Charlie? I mean, because it should be an independent branch. It shouldn't be the President's personal vendetta force, which is what we're seeing. I mean, that is how they're being used. And Pam Bondi isn't even shy about it. Right? I mean, they post about it on social media, they go back and forth. Cash Patel comes in with his hot take since the head of the FBI. And so. And you're absolutely right, it's about creating havoc and destroying, I would say, in many ways, people's lives. Because let me tell you, there's nothing more chilling than, like, and scary. When the FBI suddenly shows up at your door or they're announcing a criminal investigation, you're like, what did I even do? I don't know anything that I did wrong. But that doesn't matter because it's going to create havoc in your life. Your relatives are going to be impacted, your personal life, your finances, and then every day you have this dark cloud hanging over your head of the unknown. And, and by the way, I hate to say this because I never thought I'd say this ever. And again, on this topic, I worry about the integrity of the people conducting the investigations. And I hope, I hope that it is still good people, good agents out there, because I know that they're there. And I have respect for the FBI and the Bureau and the people conducting these, but I have a very worrisome distrust right now about the leadership and their intentions.

Charlie Sykes (23:38)

And so how do you not. No, seriously. Yeah. No, how do you not? And particularly. And we're going to segue to ICE in a moment, but with the Department of Justice, it was, I think, somewhat encouraging. And I put this in quotes, if you're watching, you can see my air quotes here, that you had about a half dozen senior DoD employees resign in protest about the way that Pam Bondi and Cash Patel want to handle the Minneapolis shooting of Nicole Good. And so there are still people there who are resigning. However, the bad news is the good people are resigning. And so who is taking their place? And as with ice, you wonder where are the people coming from? Who is signing up right now, watching everything that's happening? Who are the people who are saying, I want to be part of that. You know, I want to be, you know, part of the Todd Blanche, you know, Pam Bondi strike force. To do what? Trump is apparently continuing to just lash them, you know, go after my targets, go after my enemies. You saw that story in the Wall Street Journal where they brought in all these US Attorneys for one of these, you know, happy face photo ops. You know, this is not supposed to be subsidy. And what does Trump do? Apparently, he started ranting and raving, saying that they were weak and they were making it hard for, you know, Pam Bondi to go after my enemies. And, and this was apparently like the day before they went after Powell.

Olivia Troye (25:03)

So, yeah, translation, you're not loyal enough to me. Stop doing your job as attorneys and impartial people and start doing my bidding. That's basically what that. What kind of happened in that moment.

Charlie Sykes (25:16)

This administration is about going after the people that we hate, and you are supposed to be the strike force, and you're not getting the people I hate fast enough or aggressively enough. Okay, so this is a great segue into. And there's nothing funny about this, you know, what's going on with ice and the fact that Donald Trump seems to be slouching towards invoking the Insurrection Act. We did have that little moment of sunshine when the Supreme Court said, no, you can't deploy the National Guard troops in Illinois, but under the Insurrection act, which is one of the. And David French described this years ago as one of the most dangerous laws in America, would give the President the right to activate the active duty military and judicial oversight is somewhat limited. Look, I'm going to go out on a limit. I think there's almost a zero chance that he will not invoke the Insurrection Act. What do you think?

Olivia Troye (26:09)

I completely agree with you. I think we've seen him be talked off the ledge in the past when he's wanted to use it. He really views this as one of his main tools, and I think he feels, like, entitled on it. And so I, I think the more what we're seeing play out in Minnesota, we're already seeing an increase in troops. We're seeing kind of violence start to break out there because, well, because of the effects of ice's presence and what's happening there. I think. I think it's only a matter of time. Charlie and I worry about that. What does that look like for the coming months? What does that look like for elections? I don't discount that. This is not connecting the dots with other things that are happening.

Charlie Sykes (26:51)

You have to connect the dots. So I'm not going to use the word concerning. I'm going to use the word terrifying because I think that we see that we're going here. It's appalling. Yeah, it is appalling.

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Charlie Sykes (28:57)

So Donald Trump, I think at this point, Stephen Miller, you know, in particular, seems to be rooting for some sort of a clash, some sort of a blowup that will give them the pretext to do all of this. So let's talk about ground zero, Minneapolis. And by the way, the people in Minnesota have had just, they've had a tough couple of years, you know, with, you know, George Floyd and you know, the shooting on the street. If in fact there are 3,000 federal agents being dropped into Minneapolis. I think that I saw one study that suggests that's like 10 times the number of actual law enforcement officers in the area. I mean, it is, it feels like an occupying force that is almost. Well, let me take out the word almost, that is intentionally trying to stir up some sort of a backlash that will give Donald Trump the green light to invoke the Insurrection Act. I mean, I know that's provocative, but I think that's exactly what's going on.

Olivia Troye (29:58)

They want those optics. I mean, they are looking for that, which is why I'm always out there saying, yes, absolutely, exercise your First Amendment freedom and get out there and protest and have your voice heard and say, this is not acceptable. We are not okay with this as a community. But be careful and don't take the bait. I mean, there's going to be agitators out there.

Charlie Sykes (30:17)

Yeah.

Olivia Troye (30:18)

And they want you to, I mean, that is what they want because they, they're going to use some minor clip, however minor it is, that looks like that's a clash or however they play it out, you'll have right wing influencers blow it up. Like we've seen, we've seen that happening with Minnesota especially. And they will use that to invoke the next step. I really think that that's what the plan is. And you know, the upsetting thing for local law enforcement and for really national security and homeland security and the safety in communities is the fact that local law enforcement is basically being overrun by federal agents and there's no cooperation there. You've seen that the locals have said we don't have any insight into what they're doing. They're coming into our neighborhoods, they're creating this dynamic of distrust between our residents and law enforcement and the lines are being blurred. And so the issue with that is that the environment that it's creating in these communities is one that's actually going to make things less safe for everyone across the board in general. I'm not even talking About ICE going after immigrants and what they're doing and profiling Somalis and profiling Latinos. And I know the aclu, I think, filed a lawsuit just recently based on this, on what's happening in Minnesota. I am talking for everyone in general. That is the dynamic that's being created right now. And I think in a state where they have had so many things happen, just tragic, horrific events like George Floyd, they've had the killings of the state legislators, like these hate crimes that have happened, all of these dynamics in place. And law enforcement, local law enforcement, state and local, is now having to balance this dynamic of federal agents. They have no idea who that. They have no idea what type of training they have. They have no idea who's running the operations. They're getting 75,000 bonuses. And by the way, I don't know if you saw the Department of Homeland Security is doing ICE ads, recruitment ads with. I would, from what I saw, with themes. With. With white nationalist themes and hymns and things like that. I mean, so that's your target audience. You're using those types of recruitment tools, and you're basically giving it a badge of approval, a seal of approval. Right. And saying, yeah, come on, join our forces. Gee, what could go wrong?

Charlie Sykes (32:39)

No, and I think this is crucial. Who are they recruiting? How are they recruiting them? How are they being trained? And then the message they're getting. I saw Stephen Miller had a post where he basically said, just so you know, you are all completely immune. If you're a federal agent, you are utterly immune. Which I don't know is legally correct, but also is exactly. What you're saying is you're putting these people in these positions. You give them guns and you tell them they can do anything they want. And I actually was thinking about it. I was reading some of the smart kids who were saying, well, Nicole Goode was in the wrong place and she should have done exactly what she was told. And without relitigating that, I'm trying to imagine, because I'm gonna be in Minneapolis next, next week, if some plainclothes guy in a mask grabs my door handle in my car and says, get out. And he doesn't have an identification. Now, I'm not. This is not the Nicole Good story. Because he was identified, would I immediately comply? Is that basically, now that we have plainclothes secret police who go around unbadged, unidentified, who can order people to do anything, say, show me your papers. And the principle is that you must immediately comply or face death. Is that the moment we're in, in America in 2026. Yeah.

Olivia Troye (34:01)

You have shadow police forces and you have no idea who they are, which blurs again, the line between criminals, thugs that are actually out there to create havoc. How are you going to know, especially now that they're going door to door. They're doing these door to door knocks.

Charlie Sykes (34:15)

Yeah. What is that?

Olivia Troye (34:16)

I'd be terrified. I mean, if someone shows up at your door. We've seen what happens when things go sideways. We saw an incident, I believe it was in Oklahoma or it was a Texas like, where they showed up in the middle of the night, scared the heck out of that woman and her kids. And the kids are outside with their pajamas on. And I mean, that is the kind of thing where it leads to. That is frightening.

Charlie Sykes (34:38)

Yeah.

Olivia Troye (34:38)

I mean, that is a very frightening police station.

Charlie Sykes (34:42)

And that's the point of what this is. Okay. So in this particular case though, you're right about the right wing influencers who will put other things. But the American public, at least what I'm seeing in terms of the public opinion polls they're getting, what's going on here, this is backfiring. I did see one report, I think it was in Axios where even the White House is seeing private Republican polling saying, this is really hurting us. We're really cratering on all of this. We're losing a lot of the centrist Americans, so we need to recalibrate. I don't think Donald Trump and Stephen Miller, Kristi Noem are capable of recalibrating or interested in recalibrating. I think that all of this gets worse. All of this money being pumped into ice, all the aggressiveness that they're doing, the kinds of people that they are training. So I don't see any recalibration whatsoever. But do you get also the sense that the American public, which has seen these videos, is being repulsed, that this is breaking through, cutting through in a way that a lot of other things that we've talked about over the years have not broken through. What do you think?

Olivia Troye (35:44)

I do because I think this is becoming very real for a lot of people. Right. I think that that is a thing. I think, I mean, we knew it was coming or at least, I mean, I can tell you, I know we've talked about this where I was very concerned that this is what this administration would look like if they got back into power. Because I worked with Stephen Miller and I have heard what the things that he says in meetings. I've heard him firsthand on how he describes things and his view of what the United States should look like. And so I don't think that Stephen Miller is going to recalibrate, like you said. I think, in fact, he'll double down on it. And I think that's also the point is to continue, even if there's people that oppose you, even if the polling shows, which is why it's so important that people within the party stand up to them. But they're not willing to do that because they're scared of taking a stand against Trump. I think the critical thing is that. But I think Stephen Miller is like, okay, polling is bad, but we're just going to keep charging forward. We're the ones in power. By the time people catch up to us or the law catches up to us or anything, if anything is able to catch up to us, we will have done significant damage. And we have a certain agenda that Stephen Miller, Stephen Miller's agenda of what he wants in this country. And this is it. And he's got. Look, he's got allies. He's got Pam Bondi, he's got people at DHS like Kristi Noemi, who he's basically running DHS with her, with Corlew and Dowski over there. And then you've also got Interlay. I mean, think about Russ Vogt, who really understands the labors of the government, the funding.

Charlie Sykes (37:17)

These are the most dangerous. These are the most dangerous. I mean, a guy like Russ Vogt is the most dangerous because he's smart and he has a plan and he's kind of under the radar screen. I think our listeners know who he is, but they have a plan. And they're the absolute zealots, right? These are the ideologues. I mean, the ideologues, the zealots will do what they want to do. And they're not going to be dissuaded by public opinion. They're not going to have a moment of shame. They're not gonna look around and say, we need to recalibrate. They're going to actually probably move to ramming speed. If Donald Trump does invoke the Insurrection act, then everything we've seen so far has just been a rehearsal, Right? It's just been a driver, right?

Olivia Troye (38:00)

And I think really what they're after is control, right? Because they want control for their agenda.

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Charlie Sykes (40:02)

So I want to talk about something else that happened and that I have to admit, when it first happened, I didn't downplay it, but I thought, what do people expect? This is the story about the FBI raiding a Washington Post reporter's house. And this story broke and I was doing a live stream and I said, look, this is one of those stories that's shocking but shouldn't be surprising because this administration, once again, if you have a hammer, then everything looks like a nail. Donald Trump's willingness to go after the media, to demonize the media, to attack and intimidate the media. This is not new. This was inevitable it was going to come to this point. But you wrote a really powerful piece that the FBI did not just raid a reporter's home. It crossed a precedent. What happens when investigative power no longer respects its own guardrails? And I think we're there. Investigative power no longer respects its own guardrails. So talk to me about the significance of that decision to raid the home and seize her computers and her phones of this Washington Post reporter who was investigating the administration? I mean, this sends a signal to everybody, doesn't it?

Olivia Troye (41:08)

Yes. And I think when I saw that headline hit, but honestly my stomach turned Because I was thinking to myself, okay, we've entered that phase. We're there now. And it wasn't that we didn't know it was coming. I assumed that at some point this would start. And I think I've talked to other journalists, and I was in touch with some reporters about the story, saying, you know, we're here. We have crossed this line. How does this make you feel? Especially conversations we were having in terms of that.

Charlie Sykes (41:40)

What did they say?

Olivia Troye (41:42)

They said, we knew it was coming, but it's really just a very harsh reality to realize that that line has been crossed. And at any moment, the FBI could show up at your door, seize your devices under the premise of charging someone else. That was even. The thing that really bothered me is that that reporter. They didn't go to the Washington Post. They didn't do subpoenas. They didn't do the normal process. The FBI decided that they were just going to raid this person's house, take devices, which to me is really about freedom of the press in terms of the protection of sources. And honestly, Charlie, what's horrifying to me was sitting there thinking about Kash Patel and his people scrolling through the device, looking at all the names outside of this investigation. And when you really start to think about it, that is actually incredibly chilling because we don't know what they're doing with those devices. And, yeah, sure, they're going to say that this is a contractor who was leaking classified, who took classified information. That is not what I'm arguing here. That person should be prosecuted. They should have their day in court. That should be reviewed. Absolutely. We draw the line there. But what happened here is the crossing of the line of. In a very intrusive event has happened here to a journalist who basically is trying to figure out, I have a responsibility to be a reporter, to be an investigative reporter. That is my job. And now who knows what they're looking at in terms of the people, the names that they're gathering? And how do we know that they're not going to target all those people on that list or any names that they pulled out that are confidential sources? And so I think that is for anyone who believes in a free press, who believes in the integrity of our system and free speech and all of that and our Constitution. That's why I felt so alarmed. And I think, you know, and yeah, look, I got notes from people. They're like, are you a national security person? Somebody sold classified documents. Like, you should be very concerned about it. I'm like, well, yeah, but we saw what happened when, you know, there were classified documents in Mar A Lago, what happened to that?

Charlie Sykes (43:52)

Yes, so much for zero tolerance for that.

Olivia Troye (43:55)

But also, it's not about that. It's about the reporter. Right.

Charlie Sykes (43:58)

And what's happened here, Hannah Natenson, who is pretty well known now, you made this point, which I want to go back to, that this was an escalation. It's not standard practice. There is standard practice for enforcing the law. And you point out in these leak investigations, there's this well established ladder and exists for a reason. I mean, typically you begin with narrow subpoenas, negotiation with counsel, court challenges that allow judicial review, carefully scoped requests designed to avoid sweeping up protected news gathering materials. So there are alternatives. And as you point out, raiding a reporter's home bypasses nearly all of that. A search warrant executed at a journalist's residence, their home, with a broad device. Seizure is not the default in your experience. It's what you do when you want to override everything else. And I thought that was a very powerful point you made. You're not downplaying the fact that if there was a violation of the law, stop. You do investigate it, you do enforce it. But there's a lot of precedent, lot of alternative. Now, under the Biden administration, there was a policy against going after reporters like this. One of the first things the Trump administration did was, of course, to throw out that norm, as it's thrown out virtually every other norm that we have in law enforcement. Correct?

Olivia Troye (45:19)

Yes, they rescinded that. And that was sign number one of what was to come. Right. That was, I think, to many of us who were paying attention to that were like, well, okay, clearly Trump has it out for the press. He's not been shy about that. We've seen the attacks, we've seen the lawsuits, we've seen all of this. And that basically leaves reporters vulnerable to this type of thing. And I think that was right out of the gate, like step number one. And I think, you know, I think what the other thing that I thought was fairly alarming and upsetting was Cash Patel's tweet about it or his social media post where he said, where Pam Bondi with this reporter said, the. The reporter is not the one that's actually being investigated.

Advertisement Voice (46:02)

Yes, right.

Olivia Troye (46:03)

But then Cash Patel followed up and does a social media post because, you know, I've never seen a FBI director so eager to be online posting like Hash Patel has been. And he basically leaves it kind of open ended where he basically implies, like, they'll prosecute and charge anyone that they believe should be charged. And that I think raised alarms for the Washington Post and for this reporter because they're like, well, wait, wait a second. That the tone of that basically almost implies that you're looking at this reporter as possibly being charged or guilty. And it was also blanket statement because I think that was a message to others. Others, right. I mean, that's what they're doing. It's a message. And look in the news articles and everything, of course, people were reviewing what they were, how they were going to lock down their sources, how they're going to protect people. And it's also meant to have a chilling effect on sources.

Charlie Sykes (46:59)

Right. Because you don't know. Can I. So let's. I tried to do a mental exercise here. Let's flashback to if this had happened in a previous decade. And I was thinking, when I was a young reporter, I actually used to be a newspaper reporter and got myself in a certain amount of. Of trouble. But I was never really afraid, first of all, because I really did count on the courts to uphold the First Amendment. And they always counted on. Because I was fortunate, counted on the bosses, the publishers to have my back. That there was no question about it. And I think that that's another dimension of all of this, that not only are they willing to go after the reporters, but if you're a reporter for the Washington Post right now, you honestly have to ask yourself, does Jeff Bezos have my back now? Has he spoken out? I mean, at the time of our recording, has he said anything about this? I mean, the editor and the. Nothing. Okay, so he's gone completely silent about one of his own employees who has been treated this way. Now, let's go back to the Watergate era, how this is kind of like this bizarro mirror image of all of that. Can you imagine? First of all, I'm sure that Richard Nixon and John Mitchell, the Attorney General, would have loved to have thrown Washington Post reporters in jail or raided their homes. Imagine if they would have raided Woodward and Bernstein's house to get all of their devices. I mean, imagine the firestorm that would have created. But also wooden word. And Bernstein would have not have had the slightest doubt whether or not Katherine Graham at the Washington, the owner of the Washington Post would have their back, whether she would stand up, whether she would put all the resources of the Washington Post behind them. So think about what it was like to be a journalist when you knew that you were going to hold powerful people accountable and that the media understood what its role Was. Now you're a reporter for cbs or you're a reporter for abc or you're a reporter for the Washington Post. By the way, no disrespect to the reporters of the Washington Post. They have been doing amazing work. Flagrant acts of journalism on a basis. But you have to ask yourself, when you go home, you're lying in bed saying, how confident am I that Jeff Bezos is not gonna throw me under the bus because he's made the business calculation. You know what? It's just not worth it to piss that guy off. Let's give him another gold bobble. Let's give him a head on a plate. Let's surrender these things. So that's the way the world has changed and how being a journalist now has become a much more dangerous, risky profession.

Olivia Troye (49:25)

Yeah. And look, we've got journalists who have gone to jail because they would not give up their sources based on true integrity. Right. And so now we have a situation where their information has potentially been compromised. I can't imagine how Hannah must feel right now. And you're absolutely right. Like not knowing if she actually has true top cover at the very top. And look, it's going to take time, effort, and a legal defense for her. I would definitely be lawyering up. And I hope she finds a very, very good lawyer because I'm not convinced that this is not going to escalate for her. And to make her an example. Right. This is what this is about.

Charlie Sykes (50:04)

I am sure that she has very, very good lawyers because I know some of the lawyers who represent the Washington Post and they are absolutely top notch. But the question is, who's paying their bills and what are they going to be allowed to do? I don't question the lawyers here particularly.

Olivia Troye (50:20)

Yeah. And that is actually, that's really where I was going with that. Is then where is that infrastructure behind it.

Charlie Sykes (50:29)

Yeah, exactly. And by the way, there's. Without going too much into it, this is a question that I have in the back of my mind as well, rather directly, but. Okay. Without going in that particular direction. So at the end of every week.

Olivia Troye (50:44)

Just to declare, I will always have your back if you need something.

Charlie Sykes (50:47)

No. Yes. Yeah.

Olivia Troye (50:49)

Go down together.

Charlie Sykes (50:50)

But I'm not counting on Jeff Bezos. Bezos. Having my back. If you maybe put it that way. So at the end of every week, I always kind of worry about it. So. Because so much happens. Have we forgotten to talk about something? Have we forgotten to mention something? Which is why I find your Saturday morning newsletter so interesting because you do Five things every Saturday and every single week. And if people have not subscribed to Olivia's newsletter, they really ought to every single week. When you run down some of the major stories of the week, I think, oh, I had forgotten about that or I had not grasped the significance of that. Now I know it's you, it's Friday and you're going to do this on Saturday. Do you have some indication of something you're going to write about that you and I have not talked about today?

Olivia Troye (51:32)

I'm trying to think. I definitely, I will say, and we did talk about it, I definitely was alarmed when I saw that DHS was using certain anthems and songs in their ads. That to me was just as Department of Homeland Security, another sign that we are now basically getting white supremacists have passed. And we know that this is an increasing problem in our country, that we do have a domestic radicalization happening.

Charlie Sykes (51:58)

This is a huge story and I'm glad you mentioned that because I've been making notes on the kinds of things coming out of this. I think it was the Department of Labor that had the. What was the one country, one people, one heritage kind of thing that sounded like something out of the original German. I guess the question is how the hell does this keep happening? It's not happening by accident. Have they turned over the keys to a 20 year old incel. White nationalist? Is this something that is coming from Stephen Miller who says, you know, hey, I've got a great Stalin era poster that I would like you to use to. I mean, what is going on here? Because you know, once it can be, you know, somebody wasn't paying attention. But it's happened so often. It is such a pattern. It has become such a meme out of the Trump administration. So what is your read on it?

Olivia Troye (52:50)

Yeah, you know, I.

Charlie Sykes (52:51)

It's not accidental.

Olivia Troye (52:53)

No, it clearly isn't. Because like you said, it does keep happening. And I think to me it's very frightening because it's sending basically it's a subliminal messaging right to people that is like, hey, we have your backs. That's basically what that's doing. And so I don't know who is behind this or who's approving comms. I will tell you, having been in the Trump White House the first time, there was a moment where the Millers decided that they were the final authority on communications. And that was Katie Miller at the time.

Charlie Sykes (53:22)

Wonderful.

Olivia Troye (53:23)

So that was when Stephen Miller didn't have abundant power like he does. So it would not surprise me that there is a group of people that reviews things and inserts this. And to be honest, I think they think it's funny. I do think that they think it's funny that they can. And they can. In some ways, I can totally see signaling these people probably thinking that they're trolling it by doing things like that. But they also know what else they're doing because they also know that there's a second meaning to what they're doing behind that. And you are telling these people that you are with them essentially when you do things like that.

Charlie Sykes (53:59)

Well, you can see that cretins might find it to be amusing that let's put this out because it will scare and upset and outrage millions of Americans. And that's our job right now. We've almost internalized the sense that, that this is a government that does not pretend to represent all of the American public. We have an administration that is not even going through the motions of uniting Americans, red states and blue states together. It is, you know, I represent my faction. And if my faction outrages and offends and terrifies the, the other half of the country, we like that. In fact, we think that's funny. And it's a redefinition of what we expect. Yes, right.

Olivia Troye (54:44)

And it leads to real world violence.

Charlie Sykes (54:46)

It does.

Olivia Troye (54:46)

Honestly, Charlie. And so here's a headline for you that I probably. I have not actually talked about this with anyone, but I will share this with you and your listeners is I did a live event. Jim Acosta did a live event recently and it was on January 6th. We did have some of the proud boys and some of those people show up in the lobby. I will tell you that it was later said to me that one of these individuals looked at one of the security people and said, I could shoot you right now and I would get away with it because I'll just get pardoned.

Charlie Sykes (55:26)

And he may not be wrong. I mean, that's the thing is he may not be wrong. And it doesn't matter whether he's right or wrong. If they think that, if they believe that. I mean, two things. Number one, if you think that you have, you have impunity and immunity, and on the other hand, you are being told on a regular basis how incredibly hateful the opposition is, that people who are protesting against you or speaking against you are not just dissenters, that they are domestic terrorists, that they are enemies of all that is good and true. What do we think is going to happen if you put out thousands of agents recruited in this particular way? Under trained, given guns, told that, that those other people are domestic terrorists who are trying to destroy America. What do we think is going to happen? What ground has been softened up in this particular case? And again, later, people will say, and I'm sorry, I keep quoting from judgment at Nuremberg, they'll say, well, I didn't think it would come to that, or whatever it was. Well, it came to that the moment that you began to put out statements like, nicole Good had it coming. She deserved to die. It was a legitimate thing to shoot that woman in the face moments after she said, you know, hey, I'm not mad at you. And then 30 seconds later, she's gone down. The moment that you find that acceptable, or you celebrate that, you've just opened up the door to hell, haven't you?

Advertisement Voice (56:53)

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Olivia Troye (56:53)

Yes, on that. Well, so on a doom and gloom Friday.

Charlie Sykes (56:58)

Yeah, we don't know. I mean, we don't know what's going to happen between now and Saturday because, you know, the Friday news dump is really a thing. It was always a thing where if you had something that was embarrassing that you wanted to bury, you would release it on a Friday afternoon or Friday evening because it would get buried over the weekend. That was the conventional wisdom when you used to have a discernible news cycle. Now the news cycle is 24 7. And for some reason we've had years now where Friday's the day when basically they roll out the dumpster fire of shit and just pour the kerosene on it on a regular basis. So we don't know. So as doom and gloom as it might be, we don't know what's happened between the time that we're recording this, the time that you are listening to it. But hey, keep the faith. Thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. Thank you, Olivia, for your generous generation, your generous time, and for helping me to remind people how important it is to keep telling yourself we are not the crazy ones. Knock knock.

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Like I said, this isn't a joke.

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So the knock knock was just you knocking?

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Yeah, that's how doors work.

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Charlie Sykes (59:17)

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