Do Democrats Have a Plan?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes

Episode: Do Democrats Have a Plan?
Date: July 21, 2026
Guests: Ben Wickler (former Wisconsin Democratic Party Chairman, author of This Is the Plan)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Charlie Sykes welcomes Ben Wickler to discuss whether Democrats have a tangible strategy to counter the threats posed by Donald Trump’s latest political maneuvers, electoral interference, and the radicalization of the Wisconsin GOP. Their discussion centers on Wickler’s new book, This Is the Plan: How to End America’s Meltdown and Save Democracy, analyzing lessons from Wisconsin—ground zero for American political conflict—and what Democrats nationwide must do in 2026 and 2028 to defend democracy, win elections, and avoid damaging overreach.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Threat: Trump's Election Plan and Democratic Response

• Sykes questions whether Democrats can counter Trump’s apparent plans to interfere with the coming midterm and presidential elections.
  • (01:26–03:14)
• Wickler points out the constitutional safeguards—states run elections, not the federal government—but warns that MAGA-aligned Republicans are still seeking control over state offices crucial to election oversight.
  • Quote: “The most important plan wasn’t written by Democrats—it was written by the Founders: elections are run by the states… Right now, [pro-democracy officials] are a brick wall that Trump keeps slamming into.” (03:44)
• Crucial Point: Control of state-level offices (secretaries of state, governors, attorneys general) is the “first step” of the Democratic plan.

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2. The Wisconsin Model: Battleground Lessons

• Razor-Thin Margins: Wisconsin stands out for the closeness of its races (5 of the last 7 presidential contests decided by <1%).
  • Wickler: “It’s normal in Wisconsin to have elections come down to two or three or four votes per precinct across the state.” (06:51)
• Winning Formula:
  • Candidates must show they're “on your side and not crazy”—avoid ideological extremes, connect with voters’ real concerns, and campaign statewide.
  • Democratic primaries are rowdy and inclusive, but unity after the primary is key: “My obsession is to lay the groundwork for August 12…the day after Wisconsin’s primary for governor, so everyone…comes around to support the Democratic nominee.” (09:32)

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3. GOP Radicalization and the Crisis of 2028

• Sykes recounts the shift of Wisconsin’s GOP from a tradition of bipartisanship and moderation to “as MAGA as you can get,” with mainstream voices like Paul Ryan exiled.
  • (10:34)
• The gubernatorial nominee (Tom Tiffany) is an election denier with a direct role in efforts to overturn 2020 results—raising the stakes for 2028’s certification process.
• Wickler: “There are persuadable voters in Wisconsin…And one of the leading Democratic candidates is a DSA candidate. Are you…concerned that a DSA candidate hands the governorship to a MAGA election denial governor?” (12:49)

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4. Democratic Divides and Primary Tensions

• Unity vs. Ideology: Sykes presses Wickler on whether progressives risk “blowing” winnable races by nominating candidates too far left for swing voters.
  • Quote, Sykes: “If you roll in a candidate like Francesca Hong [DSA], you can kiss the majorities in the legislature goodbye and the governor’s race goodbye.” (16:19)
• Wickler stays neutral, emphasizing the party’s tradition of primary neutrality, but stresses post-primary unity as essential: “The most critical thing is for the party to be able to play the unifying role the day after the election.” (17:14)

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5. Close Calls and Voter Persuasion

• Wisconsin’s Near-Miss:
  • Sykes & Wickler recall the 2020 post-election drama, noting Wisconsin was one vote away on the state Supreme Court from potentially overturning the result.
    • Quote, Wickler: “Wisconsin came closer to having 2020 overturned than any other state…there’s every risk Wisconsin’s 2028 election could be overturned if Tom Tiffany is governor.” (19:30)
• Persuasion > Base Turnout:
  • Wickler argues convincing “doubtful”/swing voters is critical; real organizing happens year-round, not just election season.
    • Quote: “Building a permanent campaign…where everyone has a role to play in actually doing what Abraham Lincoln said: keep a constant watch on the most doubtful voters.” (22:08)
    • “There’s a false distinction between persuasion and turnout…the people who may not vote also might vote both sides. They’re living life, not politics.” (22:08–23:12)

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6. Combating GOP “Crazy” Framing & Republican Attack Ads

• Sykes: “How do you convince people you’re not crazy when there’s going to be hundreds of millions in ads saying Democrats are crazy…?”
  • (25:07)
• Wickler:
  • Step 1: Defuse attacks with concrete, pragmatic policies and “draw a circle” that includes yourself and most voters, leaving your opponent outside.
    • Quote: “The whole art of war is an extremely circumspect defensive followed by an audacious offensive…defuse the attack, go on offense, show your opponent has the wrong priorities.” (25:53)
  • Step 2: Focus on real-life costs—hammer Trump on inflation, tariffs, war, etc.—and emphasize Democrats’ focus on “making lives better,” not culture wars.
    • “For Democrats who wanted to save democracy, talking all the time about saving democracy was not the best strategy…It was better to point out Republicans obsessed with power games while Democrats focused on making people’s lives better.” (29:20)

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7. Midterm Dynamics and Motivating the Electorate

• Thermostatic Public Opinion:
  • Political attention and turnout are cyclical; the party out of power (or most angry) often overperforms at the ballot box.
    • Wickler: “When you have a president like Trump, his base tunes out—they think he’s got it. But for those who don’t, there’s a bubbling sense of crisis and rage.” (33:15)
  • At present, Democrats and independents are “so much more motivated right now…to throw the bums out.”
• Key Swing Voters:
  • Those who feel economics the hardest (“hit in the chin by inflation and prices”) are still in flux—not loyal Trumpists, just want change.
    • “Those voters are still up for grabs. They are not permanent part of Trump’s coalition.” (33:15)

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8. Democrats' Internal Challenges and Institutional Neutrality

• Sykes: Regrets that not all mainstream Democrats are blunt about the risks of veering left and calls for leaders like Tony Evers to ensure the party stays relatable and “not crazy.”
• Wickler: Defends internal debate as a strength, highlights party neutrality in primaries as a way to build trust post-nomination and prevent disengagement from losing factions.
  • Quote: “I think it’s really important for the party itself to play a role as a neutral supporting vehicle for Democratic nominees, because it has to be able to bring people together.” (38:39)

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9. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Charlie Sykes:
  • “Are you…concerned that a DSA candidate hands the governorship to a MAGA election denial governor?” (16:19)
  • “How do you convince people that you’re not crazy?” (25:07)
  • “This is your election to get back that mojo unless you decide to go crazy and take extreme left wing positions…” (36:39)
• Ben Wickler:
  • “The most important plan wasn’t written by Democrats…it was written by the Founders: elections are run by the states.” (03:44)
  • “For everybody who’s watching this moment, I zero in on how you can use every hour between now and November to have the biggest impact on all these different levels of power.” (14:11)
  • “Building a permanent campaign…keep a constant watch on the most doubtful voters.” (22:08)
  • “Defuse the attack, go on offense, show your opponent has the wrong priorities.” (25:53)
  • “Those voters are still up for grabs. They are not a permanent part of Trump’s coalition.” (33:15)
• Bradley Whitford (quoted):
  • “Ben Wickler has written the book we need right now. Whip smart, battle-tested, hilarious…If you want to know what you can do to save democracy…yep, this is the plan.” (41:21)

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10. The Big Tent and the Future of the Party

• Wickler and Sykes both acknowledge their long history on opposite sides but stress the need for a “big tent” for democracy.
  • “A big tent goes in both directions and gives everyone who thinks we can do better than the Trump administration a place…” (41:56)
• End Note:
  • Sykes: “We need to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. And that’s kind of an important electoral principle as well.” (42:48)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:26 – Introduction to episode theme, what’s at stake in Wisconsin and 2026/2028 elections.
• 03:44 – Wickler lays out the constitutional role of the states—step one of the Democratic plan.
• 06:51 – Discussion of why Wisconsin is the ultimate swing state.
• 12:49 – Fears about progressive overreach in Democratic primaries.
• 17:14 – Party neutrality, why unity after the primary matters more than taking sides.
• 19:30 – How close WI came to overturning 2020 results.
• 22:08 – The importance of “permanent campaign” and persuading doubtful/swing voters.
• 25:53 – Defusing GOP attack ads and going on offense.
• 33:15 – Thermostatic public opinion and why Democrats are highly motivated right now.
• 41:21 – Endorsement of Wickler’s book by Bradley Whitford; the “big tent” approach.
• 42:48 – Closing thoughts: “We are not the crazy ones.”

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Conclusion

This episode dives deeply into the existential stakes for American democracy as seen through the prism of Wisconsin politics and provides a playbook—not just for Democrats, but for anyone worried about escalating authoritarianism. Ben Wickler insists that the “plan” is about state-level defense, unrelenting year-round persuasion, and unity–not just turnout and base politics. Sykes’ pointed questioning keeps the focus practical and urgent: “Are we ready to do what it takes—or will we risk blowing the moment with infighting and extremism?”

If you’re worried about America’s democratic future or want insight into ground-level campaign strategy, this episode (and Wickler’s book) are essential listening/reading.

Transcript

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[Charlie Sykes]

Pay testimonials Results may vary. I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. Welcome back from a long weekend. Donald Trump once again embarrasses himself at the World cup with his failed photo bomb. The initiatification of the White House continued, but the big question is, what are his plans for the election? I mean, it was only last Thursday that the President had that primetime address, which was kind of a damn squib, but as we've explained before, extremely dangerous. Because I think you'd have to be colossally naive not to think that Donald Trump and his new Director of National Intelligence intend to interfere with the election. Now there's a new book out that I highly recommend, this Is the Plan how to End America's Meltdown and Save Democracy by Ben Wickler. Now, Ben Wickler used to be the chairman of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, and at one point Atlantic magazine described Ben as the the best Democratic chairman in the country. And as the fellow chief said, I can say that's true, but not everything is going that well in Wisconsin. And of course, this is the this is the season of the year where Democrats get the yips about about polls, about whether or not going to have the right people in charge what's going to happen in the midterm election. So we have a lot of ground to cover today. And joining me on the podcast today is Ben Wickler, former chairman of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin, author of the new book this Is the Plan. Ben, thank you for coming on the podcast.

[Ben Wickler]

Charlie, it's great to be with you today.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, okay, so let's talk about the plan. Whether is the plan because, and I'm going to start by, since this is a contrarian podcast, do Democrats actually have a plan to deal with what Donald Trump has planned? Because it does feel, and feel free to correct me here, it does feel as if Donald Trump has a plan to mess with the midterm elections. So let's talk about this. Do Democrats actually have a plan to counter that plan?

[Ben Wickler]

The most important plan was not written by Democrats. It was written by the founding fathers of the United States of America, who wrote into the Constitution that elections are run by the states, not by the federal government. And that, you know, there have been times when that was the pride of segregationists who wanted to deny votes to black Americans in the South. But at this point, we the fact that elections are run by state governments and often administered by local governments under the supervision of states, that is our best line of defense. There was a huge effort in 2022 when we faced the big lie where Trump was trying to get election deniers to take charge of states to ensure that people who believed in democracy would win in state level contests for secretary of state, attorney general in some states, Governor, including my state of Wisconsin, that succeeded. And so we had a free and fair election in 2024. Donald Trump won that election. And that, you know, Democrats believing in democracy, it meant that Donald Trump assumed the, the highest office in the land. Those folks are in those state and local offices right now. And they are a brick wall that Trump keeps slamming into. They're, they're refusing to turn over private voter data. They are going to court to sue when he tries to federalize election administration and oversight. My attorney general, Josh Call, is part of many of those lawsuits. They are succeeding at this moment, which means that as long as we have people who believe in democracy who are actually running the electoral system, we have the, the, the every possibility of having a free and fair election in 26 and 28. The threat is that election deniers are once again trying to take control of the electoral system in these state and local elections that are often far from the national spotlight. Wisconsin's ground zero for this. Tom Tiffany, Republican Congressman Running for governor, he was one of the members of the House that tried to throw out the electoral college votes in 2020. The governor of Wisconsin certifies the presidential election. If you get an denier in charge of the governor's office, then future presidential elections that could hinge on Wisconsin are a risk. So step one of this is the plan. It is. It's a manual. It's kind of a field guide for how to roll up your sleeves and get involved in the fight to save democracy and then make sure our government works for regular folks. Step one is to make sure that the people who will run future elections win state and local office in 2026.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, and this is something that we talk about all the time, is that if you really want to risk, you know, resist Trumpism, it's not your Twitter account, it's not going to protest. It is actually elections. And this has been your mantra for some time. Within the party right now, though, there does seem to be, I would say, different, you know, string streams of thought. People want to scratch their ideological ID versus winning elections. And so let's talk about Wisconsin. Wisconsin is kind of the ultimate swing state, right? I mean, it. Everything's on the razor's Ed. It feels like every election, many elections have been decided by 20,000 votes statewide. So what does it take to win in a state like Wisconsin? And by the way, this applied, I think, to, and you correct me if you disagree, this applied to, you know, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Minnesota, you know, a lot of these, these swing states, and Georgia. But Wisconsin really feels like it is the bellwether. What does it take to win this year?

[Ben Wickler]

Wisconsin is the only state where five of the last seven presidential races came down to less than 1 percentage point. No other state has had more than two. And that is, we see the same kind of hairline victories at governor's races and state supreme court races, Attorney general, secretary of state races. It is normal in Wisconsin to have elections that come down to like two or three or four votes per precinct across the state. And what it takes to win is for people to feel like you're on their side and that you're not crazy. And so, and those are two, two critical things. And I will say we're a state page there, okay? We're a state that's elected progressive Democrats, conservative Republicans, and people all the way in between. You know, there may be no state with a greater contrast between their two US Senators than the state that elected Tammy Baldwin by just under 1 percentage point and Ron Johnson by about 1 percentage point. In back to back election cycles. So there, there are lots of different kind of places you can be on the ideological spectrum. What you need to demonstrate to voters is that you understand them and their concerns, that you're going to fight for them and that you're not going to be way out in, in, in the ideological distance in a way that doesn't make sense. Now I happen to believe that there's a path for, for lots of different types of Democrats who fall in different parts of the Democratic party's sort of spectrum to be able to, to win a general election if they campaign in this way that involves showing up everywhere, listening to people and reflecting back to them, that you understand their concerns and their lives. And I think, you know, there's a, a big boisterous, rowdy, raucous Democratic primary for governor happening. It's the opposite of the Republican pr. One man chose who the Republican nominee would be. Donald Trump anointed Tom Tiffany his accomplice in the plot against American democracy. And Tom Tiffany's now the Republican nominee. The Democratic Party, the, the party that shows up for no kings protest doesn't have kingmakers. We have, you know, elected officials endorse grassroots activists, endorse all kinds of, you know, organizations and people get involved. But this will ultimately depend on the voters themselves. To me, my obsession is to lay the groundwork for August 12, the day after Wisconsin's primary for governor, so that everybody, including non maga Republicans, including disaffected independents, including the whole, you know, big tent of the Democratic Party, comes around to support the Democratic nominee and doesn't give up on any part of the state because we're going to need to overperform in some conservative parts of Wisconsin to win the state legislative seats that could allow us to end this very long period of Republican domination of our state legislature. If we do that, there's a chance to, to undo some of the damage of the Walker years and actually make Wisconsin a freer and fairer and, and better state than it's ever been.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, a little bit of scene setting. We need to go back before we get to where we're at right now. I mean, obviously you and I, you know, in, in the, in, in the, in the past were on absolutely opposite sides of all of this. You know, you know, you, you with the Democratic Party, me with, with, with the right. One of the things that we've seen over the last 10 years in Wisconsin has been the radicalization of the party. I mean, the Republican Party in Wisconsin, you know, had a progressive tradition at one time, you know, going back many, many years, people like Governor Tommy Thompson were actually were able to govern in a bipartisan way. Scott Walker, you know, pushed, obviously pushed that line rather radically. And then of course, we've seen the Trump years. And you know, from my point of view, as you know, I tried, I tried to be a speed bump to Donald Trump with Republicans in Wisconsin, failed. Well, I succeeded in the primary. But as we see nationally and people need to understand this, people may think, well, you know, Wisconsin, Donald Trump didn't do that well, the Republican Party in Wisconsin is not maga. The Republican Party in Wisconsin now is extremely maga.

[Ben Wickler]

And as you can get, yes, it

[Charlie Sykes]

has been as MAGA as you can get. And many of the leaders of the party who didn't go along have been exiled, excommunicated. We could run down the list of people, you know, including Paul Ryan and others. But you know, you mentioned Tom Tiffany, and Tom Tiffany is not just maga, he is the Republican nominee work for governor. But you know, just go back and look at his record on January 6th. We are literally talking about an election denier, literally talking about somebody who would have gone along or may have gone along with throwing out Wisconsin's electoral vote. So the stakes cannot be higher in Wisconsin, having said. And by the way, the, the other thing that, that for people who, you know, are, want to nerd out on, on Wisconsin, but how could you not? Yes, well, the spends in a deeply divided, you know, state, you, you have, you have the polls of Milwaukee and Dane county and Madison, which are extremely Democratic. You have some very Republican areas. And then you have, as you point out, the more traditionally you have been voting more conservative. But there are counties that voted twice for Barack Obama and then voted for Donald Trump. And we think we can talk about that because that still is kind of mind blowing. But we're in kind of a crisis moment here, Ben, in Wisconsin. And I think I'm trying to come up with a sentence that does not use the word scared shitless about this because there are persuadable voters in Wisconsin. There are those swing voters in Wisconsin. And one of the leading candidates right now, you know, in Wisconsin is a DSA candidate. Now, you know, Democratic socialist Americans can win in Chicago or New York or in various other places. But are you, you know, there are, there are Democrats who are rather concerned that if Francesca Hong wins that primary, that Democrats are just going to hand the governorship to Tom Tiffany and Wisconsin will be governed by a MAGA election denial governor. If in fact voters Choose a DSA candidate who is way out there.

[Ben Wickler]

So here's what I'll say. My commitment. I'm a advisor to the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, supporting the Governor's Readiness Project. My role in this election is to gear up the machinery, the, the kind of apparatus, the grassroots fundraising army, to support whoever wins the Democratic nomination. So I am not endorsing, I'm not making a recommendation in the, in the primary. And people have very different views about what the best path to winning actually is. And I think it is worth everyone digging in, looking at it and getting involved. I want this to be a high turnout primary. And I do. You know, there's a great debate that is raging through Wisconsin Democrats right now about what the, what the best path to win in November and then what to do after we win. I will also say this. This is an election where the most fundamental dynamic is Donald Trump. It is the guy who launched the war and ran and is driving up the cost, not just of gas, but everything that moves on a truck that is powered by gas, including food. Everything at the grocery store is more expensive because of Donald Trump. This is a question of whether you have people who supported the tariffs and who are supporting, even now, the threat of tariffs against our, well, one of our biggest trading partners, I think our single biggest trading partner, Wisconsin's neighbor to the north in Canada. Canada. Trump is threatening tariffs, the wildfires in Canada. And if you want everything to be more expensive, then Tom, Tiffany is definitely your guy.

[Charlie Sykes]

I get, I get.

[Ben Wickler]

My point to you is like, there's the, Whatever happens in the primary, we're going to prosecute the case and do everything in our power to be able to win. And I also want to underscore in just about any scenario, the state legislative majorities will depend on a handful of districts that probably come down to a few hundred votes each. And so I talk in the book about how there are some places in this country where voters have these super ballots, they vote for the majority making state legislators, they vote for the House candidates that determine the U.S. house majority. And they vote in statewide elections. That could come down to a few, you know, a few, a few thousand votes that, that swing things one way or the other. And so for everybody who's watching this moment now, who, anyone who might pick up, this is the plan. I zero in on how you can use every hour of your time between now and November, and it changes depending on how close you get to the election to have the biggest impact on all those different levels of power, all of them are going to matter enormously. And so that's how I can contribute most, I think, in this moment is by helping folks zero in on how they can build the power to get us through this moment of profound peril.

[Charlie Sykes]

And this is an excellent book and everything that you describe, I think is very important. And I'm hoping that people read this. But here's my problem, Ben. I know you're really a smart guy and we're looking at what's actually happening in Wisconsin and I know what the role is you have to play. So the mainstream Democrats were, up until last week, were coalescing around the Lieutenant Governor, Sarah Rodriguez, who I think would have been a consensus, kind of a consensus mainstream candidate. Her campaign suddenly and dramatically imploded because of some campaign finance issues. I'm not sure whether you call it a scandal or not. She dropped out of the race. As a result. Another candidate who had previously dropped out of the race, who's the Milwaukee county executive named David Crowley, has re entered the race. It certainly looks like Governor Tony Evers, who has managed to win no multiple statewide elections, is going to endorse David Crowley. You don't have to concern.

[Ben Wickler]

He did endorse. He's endorsed.

[Charlie Sykes]

So the governor, Governor Ebers, who actually knows how to do it. Now, I will tell you this. I live in the wild county. I know lots of people who would vote for Tony Evers, who would have voted for Sarah Rodriguez, who will probably vote for David Crowley. And I will tell you, Ben, let me look at it. They will not vote for Francesca Hall. They will. Absolutely not. So those swing voters, those hundreds and thousands of swing or hundreds or thousands, very small number of people who I know agree with you absolutely on Donald Trump, on the tariffs, on Tom Tiffany would vote for almost any Democrat. But if you roll in a candidate like Francesca Hong, you can kiss the majorities in the legislature goodbye and the governor's race goodbye. And okay, I know you're really a smart guy and I know that you know this. So what do we do?

[Ben Wickler]

I appreciate you and I know you know something about our state's history, you know, fighting Boba fall. It came in, he created open primaries where everybody gets to vote and it is actually decided by the voters who's going to win in the Democratic Party of Wisconsin. The, the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, the modern one, was reformed in 1948 to counter the threat of Joe McCarthy. And at that point the Progressive Party basically dissolved and moved into the Democratic Party. The Republican Party was started in Wisconsin as a radical anti slavery Party. But the, the, the kind of more progressive Republicans, they moved over to the Democratic Party and when this multi party coalition was formed called the Democratic Party of Wisconsin, they wrote into the constitution of the state party that the state party would be neutral in these primaries. And I, as both the sort of former chair, chair emeritus and now an advisor to the party, working, I am like, steadfast in my commitment to the party, not putting its thumb on the scale because the most critical thing is for the party to be able to play the unifying role the day after the election. So people have very strong views and they have, you know, very strong theories about what the path to victory in November will be through the primary. I, I'm going to stick to my guns as somebody who's associated with the formal Democratic Party that I am here to, to support party unity and getting everyone possible to throw themselves in, no matter who they support in the primary, the day after the primary is over.

[Charlie Sykes]

This is why Ben's good. But, but I think the most extraordinary thing about that answer was you didn't say, Charlie, you're full of shit about that. You did, you didn't, you didn't.

[Ben Wickler]

I didn't speak in either direction about that. And if you talk about their argument in every direction in the, in the primary, I just, yeah, the, I just,

[Charlie Sykes]

I just have a sense of, I, I have a sense of the incredible. And this will, this will surprise people who may know about my background. The urgency of not having someone like Tom Tiffany in the governor's office during the 2028 election, because you made the point the governor certifies the election in Wisconsin. The election may be decided by 10,000, 5,000, 20,000 votes. The, the Republicans in Wisconsin came actually kind of shockingly. Well, you please feel free to correct me that I was shocked when the Supreme Court only ruled five to four not to go along with it. I mean that really, that was for me, like, holy.

[Ben Wickler]

Wisconsin came closer to having the 2020 overturned than any other state. It was, it was a 43 vote and it was the only reason why the election wasn't overturned was one conservative former, you know, Walker lawyer on the state Supreme Court who listened to his conscience and paid attention to the law and said that the, the Trump administration couldn't change the rules after the election was already contested. There's every risk that Wisconsin's 2028 election could be overturned if Tom Tiffany is governor. And so we agree on that.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, we agree on that. I mean, that 4, the 43 vote, by the way, a little Bit of a footnote for people who want to know how weird Wisconsin politics is. So this is with Justice Hagedorn, who, you know, was a conservative Republican who in the end did not go along with the election. Had he done so, Wisconsin would have come very, very close to being the number one election in the state. That gives you a sense of how radical the Republican Party has become. The leading Republican candidate four years ago, and you'll remember this, of course, as you lived through all of this and helped win the election for the Democrats, was Lieutenant Governor Rebecca Clayfish. And Rebecca Clayfish was. The assumption was she was going to be the Republican nominee. Donald Trump found out. And this is so weird that Donald Trump found out, okay, that Rebecca Clayfish's daughter went to prom with Justice Hagedorn's son. And somebody whispered that. And he said, well, I'm not endorsing. I'm going to endorse for more MAGA opponents. And she lost the primary as a result of Donald Trump's endorsement. So this gives you a sense of what's happened and how, I mean, out there Republican politics in Wisconsin can be. So let's go back to a more. Just pulling back from the Wisconsin situation a little bit, because, you know, in your book, you talk about, I mean, there's a debate about whether or not we should be focusing on, or Democrats should be focusing on turning out the hardcore base or focusing on persuadable voters. And my sense is you spend a good deal of time talking about how to persuade voters who swing back and forth, which I agree with you, is the. Is the key. And you even quote Abraham Lincoln as saying, find those doubtful voters and spend a lot of time with them. So just talk to me about that, because you are also the architect of the permanent campaign, which is that you have to engage with people throughout the year as opposed to just during the election campaign. So continue talking a little bit about that, sort of.

[Ben Wickler]

If you take one thing from the book, it is that building a permanent campaign that is not about one election or one candidate, where everyone has a role to play in actually doing what Abraham Lincoln said to keep a constant watch on the most doubtful voters and from time to time have them talked to by those in whom they have the most confidence. The messenger matters. The best messenger is the one they know the best. It's someone locally who is helping make sense of the election. The argument that I make in the book that comes from both a lot of data and our practice in Wisconsin, is that there's a false distinction between persuasion and turnout. Because in fact the people who might or might not vote have the same, have, have a deep thing in common with the people who might vote for either side. And that thing is, both of those kinds of voters tend not to put politics at the center of their lives. They're people who don't think about politics most of the time. They actually are more likely to think about politics the way that you and I think of curling, which is to say something that gets on TV for a few weeks every four years and otherwise, you know, is not, not something

[Charlie Sykes]

like dating a World cup fan.

[Ben Wickler]

Right.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, how often do I watch soccer? I mean, I spent all weekend watching. Watch.

[Ben Wickler]

Exactly, exactly. People get very fired up and then it kind of drifts out of their field of view. And for those voters, as I said, you want to, you want to demonstrate that you have common sense, that you do not have some like completely alien understanding of the world. But most importantly or along with that, that you understand their lives and you're on their side. And when you talk to actual people who are on the fence about whether to cast a ballot, it is not because they have this like 20 point ideological checklist that they're comparing a candidate to. It's actually that all politics feels like bullshit, to be, to be frank, that maybe all politicians are corrupt, the system doesn't really work, my vote doesn't really matter. This is, you know, why would I get involved in that? It's stressful. There's so much conflict that I want to think about something else. And that is very similar to swing voters who tend not, they tend not to be people who are reading the news every day and you know, caught right in the middle between the two parties. They tend to be people for whom both parties are way over here, whereas they're over, over over there. And so there's this huge distance and you know, when you're very far away from something, it can be hard to tell which one is, is more likely to be on your side. And so the solution is to go to those voters, actually listen to them, ask them whether what matters to them right now, have credible proposals for how you can make a difference, build trust over time, become familiar to them in context where you're not asking for their vote. It is, it is an age old thing that's at the heart of how you build a political community, which is actually demonstrate to someone that you're part of their community and that you are on their side and dealing with what they're going through. And that work is something that you can do in that if you're a Democrat or an ex non maga Republican who wants change in the party, you can do that on a year round basis wherever you might be. And in a race in a state like Wisconsin that's on a knife's edge, that work that you do far from an election might be the thing that tips the balance when the, the ballots are counted down.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, how do you convince people that you're not crazy? Because there are going to be hundreds of millions of dollars of ads all around the country saying that, well, Democrats are crazy. They favor, you know, defunding the police or they favor, you know, you know, trans athletes in sports. The I think I read over the weekend, I'm sure you saw this as well. Axios is reporting that the Republican strategy is basically going to make this the hate election. We're going to hate Democrats. So what do Democrats knowing this is coming, knowing that Donald Trump is running against communism and socialism and all of this other stuff, how do Democrats inoculate themselves? How do they say we are not the crazy ones? You want to talk about crazy? Look at what Donald Trump is doing on a daily basis. What's that for?

[Ben Wickler]

So I quote Napoleon Bonaparte in the book who says the whole art of war is an extremely circumspect defensive followed by an audacious offensive, which is to say you want to strategically defuse the attacks and then you want to move the spotlight over and make this reverse referendum on what is disqualifying about your opponent. And that's a two step process. And often people get stuck on, on the first one, you, you actually have to do both. Yeah, the, the first piece is to anticipate where, where those lines of attack are going to come from. And yeah, there's a, you know, to choose someone you just named. Francesca Hong said in an interview just now she doesn't want to make police funding go away. This is all the candidates are in support of local, you know, having local public services, including law enforcement, have the funding and support and training they need and making sure that other services that can help, you know, address causes of crime are funded properly. And then you want to say what does the other side stand for? You want to draw a circle that includes you and the big majority of voters and show that the, your electoral opponent is outside of that circle. And in fact, Tom Tiffany is so far outside that circle right now for so many voters that there's a huge amount to be able to work with. Now there are 25 different positions he's taken votes he's taken that to me are disqualifying. But the central thing right now that we hear from voters over and over and over is that daily life is unaffordable for them. And there are policies this administration has taken that just make everything cost more. Starting with this totally misbegotten war in Iran that has in my view that you know just about anyone who's looked at the reason why gas prices are so high, it's because Iran took over the Strait of Hormuz. You don't have to get into the, the fact that this was predicted by general in the Defense Department for decades as what would happen if the United States attacked Iran. You can just talk about whether you're supporting policies that make things cost more when you try to fill up your grocery cart or not. And what we learned in 2022 is that for Democrats who wanted to save democracy, talking all the time about saving democracy was not the best strategy. It was actually better to point out that Republicans were obsessed with these political power games and trying to rig the system instead of focusing on how to make people's lives. That Democrats were the ones who wanted to spend their time solving actual problems in people's lives and they wanted to stop messing around with this weird fiddling with, with you know, voting, voting rules that seem to obsess the gop. The GOP is obsessing over, over culture war issues. They're obsessing over, you know, trying to bring back the red scare, you know, whether or not their, their, their candidate has anything to do with the policies that they're accusing them of. It's Democrats throughout the Democratic coalition who want to bring the focus back to voters lives and, and the affordability issues. So step one is defuse the attack. Step two is go on the offense and show that it is your opponent who is out of step with voters. That is your opponent has the wrong priorities. And Donald Trump has given us the greatest possible proof points for this. When Donald Trump said I love the inflation, when he said I don't care about the little man with his four dollar gas that he said the number one issue is the Save America act, he wants to pass voter suppression laws. He doesn't care about anything in your life. All he wants is to lock in his own power. That illustrates perfectly where his priorities are and gives us a basis to be able to draw a contrast. And that, that is my advice to everyone is meet the voters where they are in their lives and show that your opponent is trying to, to pull the wool over their lives because they have some other priority.

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[Charlie Sykes]

Look, obviously everyone, including me, has lots of opinions about this deal.

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean, this seems to be the, you know, the theme of the year. You know, Donald Trump and we can talk about the autopsy of 2024. I thought one of the more powerful things misleading was when he basically said, you know, they are for them, I am for you. So here's this guy who said, I'm the voice of the Little people. And yet in story after story we're saying, you know, whose side is Donald Trump on? Who is he focusing on? You know, because you have a lot of working class, you know, people, you know, in the, in the farm regions who thought that, that maybe Donald Trump was going to be their voice. And yet what you are seeing is that, you know, Donald Trump, whether it's the oligarchy or his self dealing or his obsessions with ballrooms and helipads and all these things, is not focused on them, is not on their, on their side. It's like, is somebody concerned about people like me or people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos?

[Ben Wickler]

That's exactly it.

[Charlie Sykes]

But most people, as you point out, do not live politics like we do with, are not following this news cycle. So the question is at that end of the campaign, know how that is going to be framed and what motivates voters. So let me just talk about, I don't like speaking spend much time on polls, but there are sort of conflicting data points and I wanted to get your take on this. The generic poll of all voters is actually pretty tight. Know that despite all of Donald Trump's failures, the Democratic lead is at least in the Washington Post poll that I saw only a couple of points. However, when you ask people who are the most motivated to vote, it begins to, you know, the margin continues to spread. So give me your thoughts on all of that because this does off your election turns on motivation as much as anything else, doesn't it? And right now Democrats, well, are Democrats more motivated than Republicans?

[Ben Wickler]

Democrats are so much more motivated right now. And also independents who do pay a lot of attention to politics are voter very motivated right now to throw the bums out. I, I write in the book and I, I really, you know, dig into how this like plays out for, for what people can do to be able to make a difference in this moment. The most powerful, well documented kind of force of gravity in American politics is something called thermostatic public opinion, which is this metaphor that political scientists use for when it gets too hot, the thermostat kicks in to cool things down. When it gets too cold, the thermostat kicks in to make it hotter. So political scientists use this to describe how when the president is Republican then there's usually a Democratic wave in the midterms and when the president' Democratic, there's usually a Republican wave in the midterms. But I don't think that metaphor is very good because it's not like there's some generator that actually determines what the temperature is. The way this works in practice is that when. When you have a president like Donald Trump, a lot of Trump's biggest fans and supporters, they feel like they can kind of tune out. They want the right guy's in charge. But for people who think this is not the right guy, and especially people who are following events closely, they feel a bubbling sense of crisis and rage. And in every midterm election, turnout drops, but the side that drops less is the side that wins. So at this moment, if you ask Republican voters, there's just not the sense of urgency, crawl through broken glass, do everything in their power to make sure Trump has majority in both chambers of Congress and control of the state governments. But on the other side, there is a sense of everything's on the line. We've got to do everything we can possibly do to put a check on this guy's abuses of power and put a check on this cor. Uh, and then there's this other group of voters that are really not in the tank for either side, but who want their own lives to be going well. And that group of voters is what swung the presidential election in 2024 for Donald Trump. It was people who. The people who said they were least likely to pay attention to the news, couldn't remember the message of either candidate, but who said they were hit in the chin by inflation and prices. Those are the voters who are most likely to swing either from having supported Harris to supporting, excuse me, supported Biden, to supporting Trump, or from not voting to voting for Trump in 2024. And that it's a striking and important result because it means that those voters are still up for grabs. They are not permanent part of Trump's coalition. He has not remade the Republican Party with all the voters who supported him. These are folks who just know how they feel like things are going and want change, or more of the same. Right now, they want change. And so the Democrats at this point have the combination of the change coalition and the freaking out because this is a crisis and disaster coalition. Those two things together give Democrats a huge advantage if they play this right. And my. My argument in the book is that we need to ensure that those voters who are coming in because they are furious about the price of gas and the price of keeping a roof over your head or getting health insurance, millions of people losing health insurance right now, that those voters don't just vote in the most high profile, most publicized race, but they also vote in these state legislative races and these down ballot races. That Wisconsin Attorney General Josh Call, who fights against voter suppression instead of in favor of it, if they vote in those races, then it opens up this very wide path to being able to get America out of the mess that we're in. And if we, if we roll up our sleeves and make sure that that happens, then I have enormous hope for where we're going to go politically.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, you make a really interesting point. You know, Donald Trump was, he, you know, had the ability, I think was, was on the edge of being able to have kind of a realignment. And yet almost everything that has eroded his popularity has been an own goal. Right? I mean, he has been self inflicted, whether it is the terrorist, whether it is going too far, whether it is, you know, abandoning his pledge to not have, you know, foreign wars. All of those things are self, are self inflicted. So it does feel as if the stars are aligned exactly as you described it for a big Democratic year. I guess I wish more Democrats who know how to win elections would be willing, we've already gone through this in our conversation, would be willing to say to Democrats, you know, you know, this is, this is your election to get back that mojo. Unless you decide to go crazy and take extreme left wing positions and embrace the Democratic Socials of America type thing. Because at some point, don't the mainstream Democrats like Governor Tony Evers have a responsibility to say, hey, let's not blow this by going too far. And Tony Evers is actually doing this. You know, I guess I'm just expressing my opinion. I wish the Moore would basically say, look, one of the things that we have to do is convince people that we're not crazy. And by the way, your history of the Democratic Party, Republican Party is interesting because going back to 1948 as well, one of the crucial things that Democrats did back in the late 1940s with the Americans for Democratic Action ADA was Democrats said, you know, we have a problem with a really extreme, you know, tanky left and we need to have a Democratic Party that is not sullied by the extreme left. And they, you know, over the, over time succeeded in doing that. I think it will be interesting after the midterms whether there's a similar effort. But again, the focus has to be on the Republicans this year, doesn't it?

[Ben Wickler]

I, I mean there is a big debate, there's institution building, party building going on from centrist Democrats, from left wing Democrats. There's all that is playing out in the Democratic Party right now. And I think it's a sign of a healthy party. When you actually have those kinds of debates and see how things play out electorally in different examples, like we have this, this gift in this country because we have such a hugely federalized system, you actually get the equivalent of a scientific experiment to see what strategies are going to work with which voters, in which places. All that's great in advance of the next presidential primary. I think there's another element here that plays a big role in how I, you know, think of my own role in this electoral fight, which is that voter trust right now in institutions is very, very low. And this is true among Democrats with regards to the Democratic Party itself as well. And for voters to feel that, that it is, you know, worth participating, having some trust that the institutional party that, you know, puts out, that prints out the flyers that people hang on the door hangers and so forth, doesn't have it, some on the scale is very, very important. And that's, I think I, when I write in the book about the difference between the Democratic Party of Wisconsin with Dems, where I was the chair, where Devin's the chair now, where I'm an advisor, the difference between that and all the, you know, elected officials and, you know, different folks in the debate, I think it's really important for the, the party itself to play a role as a neutral supporting vehicle for Democratic nominees because it has to be able to bring people together. And often there's an effort by the right to try to torch people's belief in the system so they can get people who, for whom they, they're not happy with what happened in the primary to then disengaged in the general election. We have to fight back against that. The Democratic Party of Wisconsin is, is purpose built to be a place where people can have these debates and then come together afterwards. And I, I take my role in that very seriously, as I did throughout my years as state party chair, now as chair Rarita. So I, you know, your, your voice and there's many other voices, some agree, some would disagree with you about this. All those voices are really important and it's, it's, I think, critical to have a party that is not like Donald Trump, an instrument of one person's control, but rather is the place where voters can join together the day after the primary and win.

[Charlie Sykes]

Are you still interested in being chairman of the dnc? You know, a lot of people think that they made a big mistake by not electing you as the chair of the dnc. I am one of them. So in your future, I,

[Ben Wickler]

I think I took a run at that. I think I came to the the I learned a lot in the process and then being able to have this last year with my, with my family and be able to write this book and you know, think about how I can best contribute has been a huge gift. So I'll figure out the future in the future this election cycle. I want keep to get the word out about this book and help everyone.

[Charlie Sykes]

It felt like a campaign book.

[Ben Wickler]

That's right.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, it's like candidates with the earnings spread the range. This is, this is the plan. Seems like Ben Wickler, by the way, Bradley Whitford, of course, who's a fellow cheese head like you're the actor says my fellow Wisconsinite Ben Wickler has written the book we need right now. Whip smart, battle tested and funny as hell. Wickler, the most effective political organizer I have ever known. This is pretty good from Bradley Whitford. Gives us a clear, concise, hilarious call to action. If you want to know what you can do to save our democracy and hold our country up to a spectacular, unfulfilled promise, yep, this is the plan. Bradley Whitford so that's, that's pretty nice, Ben.

[Ben Wickler]

So I feel I'm honored by, by his, by his kind words and he's going to be with me on a book tour stop actually in, in San Francisco next week and I'll be on book tour all throughout Wisconsin and on, on both coasts. Coasts. I'll be in D.C. tomorrow night. Official pub date is July 21st. And I'll be with Judy Woodruff and Nancy Pelosi at Politics and Pros. So your old friend from your years on the Republican, Nancy Pelosi. It's going to be a lot of fun and I'm grateful for this conversation and I want to say you and I would have been on starkly opposite sides at a million different things for many, many years. But I think a big tent goes in both directions and gives everyone who thinks that we can do better than the Trump administration a place where they can passion it out and figure out what the path forward. Really excited to be able to join you today and good luck to everyone who thinks we should be a democracy in the future.

[Charlie Sykes]

Thank you so much and thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sachs. You know why we do this, why Ben and I have these con, you know, these conversations because we need to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. And that's kind of an important electoral principle as well. Thank you very much.

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