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- [00:00]
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- [00:02]
Charlie Sykes
Hold on one second.
- [00:06]
Sophia Kinzinger
I just need to.
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Sophia Kinzinger
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- [01:30]
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- [02:02]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to to the Contrary podcast. Well, whatever kind of a week you had, you had a better week than J.D. vance had. You want to talk about one of the worst book tour book launches ever? But of course it's gonna be problematic when J.D. vance comes out with a book talking about his conversion to Catholicism when he's in the middle of an argument with the Pope, when the Pope himself and all the bishops are saying, yeah, J.D. you don't quite get this Christian Catholicism thing, do you? And meanwhile, the story of Donald Trump's reflecting pool reconstruction gets better and better. I mean, it's gone from parody to farce. If you haven't heard about this, of course you know Donald Trump spent $14 million turning it blue only to have this massive algae Bloom, turn it green. But wait, it actually gets better because these guys decided that they were going to try to kill the algae by pouring in hydrogen perox. Now all you have to do is Google hydrogen peroxide to realize that it's also a paint thinner. So as a result of that, now the blue paint on the bottom is actually peeling off in massive chunks. There's a massive metaphor for everything else that's going on. So let's talk about a genuinely bizarre week. And joining me to talk about all of this first time guests, so future Sophia Kinzinger. Sophia, welcome to the program.
- [03:34]
Sophia Kinzinger
Thank you, Charlie.
- [03:35]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's introduce you first of all, because, I mean, you know, I mean, number one, people are gonna go, okay, so now this is the Sophia Kinzinger who's on Substack, but also married to Adam Kinzinger, who is a notorious figure on this particular podcast. But also, you and I were just chatting. You have a long background working in the White House, and this is what I wanted to talk to you about. You actually work, this is, by the way, little known fact that you are married to Adam Kinzinger, one of the strongest never Trump voices in the world. And you used to work for Donald Trump and for Mike Pence. So just give me a little bit of bio before we just jump into all of this.
- [04:16]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah. So I started in D.C. under Speaker John Boehner. I was in his leadership office. I was born and raised in El Salvador. So I came in basically reaching out to Hispanics and being sort of like the liaison with Spanish language media for him during those difficult times in 2014 when immigration was a hot topic. But I then moved to the rnc, ended up working under Sean Spicer and eventually emerged with the Trump campaign. And yeah, when Sean was named press secretary, he took me with him to the White House. Yes.
- [05:03]
Charlie Sykes
Well, the reason I bring this up is because I read a piece that you wrote on Substack about the and it's been a while now, the Trump Welker interview where she was fact checking him and then he got angry and he left. And you walk through what a failure of the White House communications office this was. And I realized, okay, this is somebody that understands it. So let's fast forward to this past week. I want to get your sense about the Iran deal, but Donald Trump's rather extraordinary surrender to Iran, that just from a communications point of view, this seems I was listening to somebody talking about this, saying normally the White House has tremendous resources to go out and spin something. And there's so Much that is not happening. They pushed JD Vance out there to try to gaslight the nation, and it is not going well. So you've been there. It feels as if the system is glitching. I mean, first of all, it's a terrible deal. It's hard to sell. But there's something missing here, isn't there? I mean, Trump has had success in the past, right, in spinning even terrible ideas. Why does this feel different, or is it not different? Give me your sense.
- [06:20]
Sophia Kinzinger
Listen, as a communications staffer, working for Trump is a nightmare. It's not your usual, I guess the usual strategy you would use with any politician when it comes to controlling the narrative because things are doing. He does things actually backwards. Usually you have a policy, right? And then the comms team comes in, forms a narrative and a strategy to sell it to the public to pitch their ideas, to get that victory lap when things actually deliver. But this is not the case with Trump. He makes policy based on headlines and emotionally reacting to the Democrats or whoever he thinks is attacking him. So you have a comms team that actually has to be on the defense, that has to then produce facts that usually are not there in order to control the narrative. And that has been the problem since the start, especially in this second term. They have confused what is controlling the narrative with controlling the facts. You can't control facts. You can't pitch a reality that is just not there. And, yeah, that's the impossible task of JD Vance trying to sell this, where, yeah, the facts don't align in order to do so.
- [07:44]
Charlie Sykes
It seems a real tell that they've pushed J.D. vance through the curtain. Most of the media seem to buy the idea that Trump was joking when he says, if things don't work out, I'll blame J.D. vance. I don't think it was a joke. What was your reaction to that?
- [07:58]
Sophia Kinzinger
No, I mean, that's classic Trump. So actually, the first time I actually saw him in person, it was the 2016 campaign, remember, there was tension between the RNC and the Trump campaign. We weren't trusted. And he came in and the first thing he said is, I lose this election, I'll blame you guys. And the ironic part is that he had no political experience at that point. We were doing all the hard lifting. He was relying completely on us to make this happen for him. But, yeah, I mean, that just didn't cross his mind. All he wanted, obviously, is everything's transactional for him.
- [08:41]
Charlie Sykes
Well, everything is transactional. And I think by now we ought to realize that Donald Trump never takes the blame for anything never takes responsibility. There's always somebody else to blame. So on opponent podcast earlier this week, Ed Luce described it as handing JD Vance the poison chalice of all of the things that J.D. vance now. And by the way, what do you make of the fact that Marco Rubio has decided to sort of just go radio silent on all. The Secretary of State is not saying anything about this. It's all, J.D. what do you make of that?
- [09:18]
Sophia Kinzinger
Listen, I saw this in the White House firsthand. Staffers need to sometimes dissociate themselves in order to survive those environments. And they think that only because the words are being said by Trump and he's the one leading the crazy fight, they're not responsible. And that's so not true. Yeah. And I think, Marco, you see all these stories where there's leaks here and there that he thinks different, that he proposes things behind closed doors, but obviously they're ignored. That guy probably doesn't sleep at night.
- [10:00]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, there was that report that the CIA director and Rubio sort of were very, very skeptical of trusting any good faith on the part of Iranians, saying they're not going to come up with a deal here. And so he's not criticizing the deal, but it seems very, very sort of dramatic that he's not saying anything about it. So J.D. vance is out there launching his campaign for president with, I mean, one of. I cannot remember. He helped me out on this one. I cannot remember, you know, a moment in which the conservative media, the anti Trump, the anti. Anti Trump, the MAGA media, the all of across political lines have been so unanimous in condemning how terrible this deal is. I mean, he has been given the job of defending something that almost everybody across the political spectrum is saying. Are you serious? Is this for real?
- [10:59]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah. No. It's the ultimate betrayal if you think about it. Right. Because this was a core issue within the campaign. And you know, Charlie, like the MAGA base is mostly formed by individuals who felt politically left behind for a long time. This is what gave him the win in 2016, is that these group of people finally felt seen, finally felt they belonged somewhere because they had a fighter who was saying the things they wanted to hear. So. So to lose the trust and to lose hope behind Trump will have a huge political consequence this November.
- [11:44]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, and for J.D. vance, I mean, the fact that he's out there now misrepresenting what's in the deal, but also that whole kind of bullying Israel, and obviously Israel is shocked, shocked to learn that Donald Trump is not trustworthy. But J.D. vance essentially saying, you have no friends in the world but us. Nobody likes you, so be careful about criticizing us. It was a weird moment for, you know, the people who are the most disillusioned by this appear to be the Iran hawks, the people who actually thought that Trump, you know, might pull something off here. So this is a very. By the way, have you been following this great man theory that Donald Trump has become apparent, inherently obsessed with the new Maggie Haberman? Jonathan Swan book talks about the fact that he had been comparing himself to all the great leaders in history, like Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Napoleon, and that he apparently is really kind of fixated that these were the great men, but none of them were as great as I am because I have more power, more global reach. And this is one of those. I don't want to make light of this because, you know, obviously you have a guy with a lot of hubris, but it's also the fact that the President of the United States is a megalomaniac. He still has his fingers on the button. And he's not asking, what would Jesus do? He's asking, what would Genghis Khan do? What would Mao do? What would Hitler do? I mean, this is. I go back and forth between thinking that this is kind of this great cosmic joke and thinking, no, people, are you paying attention to what's going on inside this guy's head? What do you make of this?
- [13:41]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah, I recently had a similar conversation with Adam where for a long time I thought he, it's all about manipulation. Right. His strategy is to manipulate reality so people don't really see who he is, sort of hide his weaknesses and really how fragile he is. But honestly, I do think he believes it. I do think everything that you just said, I do think he's starting to believe. Which, that should be terrifying. That should be terrifying for everyone. And we still have two more years to go.
- [14:16]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. And I'm looking at the Axios interview that he gave just recently here, where the headline is Trump's All Powerful Great Man Theory. President Trump declared on the Axios show on Thursday that he has discovered this is his term, no limits to his power since going to war with Iran. Now and again, he's comparing himself to Napoleon and Hitler, saying, I am greater than them because I have airplanes and I have global reach, and I can do all of these other things. But what's interesting is that this was the week of his real humiliation where he found the limits of his Presidential power and this incredible defeat. And yet this does not seem to register with him. He is still wrapped up in this self mythology of himself as this great, you know, globe bestriding colossus. And I think you're right that at one point it may have been shtick, but I think we need to come to grips with the fact that he may believe this stuff.
- [15:16]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah, right. And you know, like the sad thing is, and he always goes back to the success it was Venezuela, I really do think Venezuela and the success in that mission gave him the confidence in the booth that we are really are this huge power that can do whatever we want without consequences. Venezuela has been something that's been discussed for a long time by several administrations. Maduro has been a problem for a while, but all the past administration, including his administration, in the first term, it was all about regime change, giving back the control to the people. And there were two phases. If there's a military action, then comes the second phase, which is regime change was extremely hard to not get boots on the ground. And there's no public opinion support on that. So we've all known that a military action in Venezuela, extremely easy. It wasn't really something that could be compared with Iran. But I think, yeah, he struggles to face reality and really see his weaknesses. And really, I call it emotional intelligence. Charlie. He lacks so much emotional intelligence. His emotions drive every decision he takes. He doesn't have the ability to regulate when he feels angry or he feels he's getting attacked. He lacks the ability to regulate, think straight, and make wise decisions. It's all based on emotion and impulsiveness.
- [16:55]
Charlie Sykes
You know, and let's go back to this. That if you were hiring someone to run a corporation or, I don't know, head a platoon or, you know, run a school, those traits that you just described would be disqualifying for any position of trust anywhere in America or the world, except for the presidency of the United States. That somehow we are living in a moment where we have the lowest standards possible for the presidency of the United States. And I think that's what's so strange. And the fact that he is. But also I think this does relate to, you know, I snark about the monuments. I mean, his Beautification of Washington project is not going well. You know, there's still the tarp up on the Kennedy Center. He can't bear to have anyone see the fact that his name is taken off. You know, the East Wing is still a hole in the ground. He doesn't have his ballroom. The Reflecting pond has turned into the Trump swamp. I don't know what's gonna happen with the ark, the arc to Trump. But all of this is part of his self stroking, self mythologizing, right? That he is trying to show the world, show posterity, that he was this great man not bound by the normal laws of politics. And so all of this, this monument fixation is also part of this fixation on being one of the great men of history. And by the way, your point about Venezuela I think is crucial. That was a real turning point where I think it fueled his overconfidence and the arrogance that I can do this. But also in Venezuela and Iran, this is worth mentioning. I think that not only did you not have real regime change, but the democratic forces, the people, they have basically been thrown under the bus, you know? Right. Where are the pro democracy forces in Venezuela right now? They had so much hope in this. And Donald Trump doesn't seem to have the slightest interest in the people of Venezuela or the people of Iran.
- [19:07]
Sophia Kinzinger
You know, Iran. I think one of the biggest losers with this war with Iran has been the Venezuelan people because there's no way they will risk going for regime change in Venezuela. And that's sad. That is so sad, because we were by their side during the first term, Mike Pence specifically. We tried so hard to keep hope up with the Venezuelan people and we've completely abandoned them.
- [19:40]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and the Iranian people.
- [19:41]
Sophia Kinzinger
And not only that, I think. Yeah. Which he made them believe he was
- [19:46]
Charlie Sykes
by his own help is on the way. Right. Total betrayal.
- [19:50]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yes.
- [19:51]
Charlie Sykes
And in many ways, I mean, that's one of the great ironies is that the Iranian mullahs now are more powerful, more entrenched than ever before. I mean, they obviously have more clout, but with this deal, he's given them legitimacy, but also, I think solidified their hold on power. Okay, so I wanna talk about a piece that you wrote about the rules changed. Nobody told us, but I'm sure that people who are listening to our conversation are wondering. Okay, wait, so, you know, you clearly have a very clear understanding of who and what Donald Trump is, but you were originally one of the people that supported Donald Trump. So just tell me a little bit about why Sophia Kinzinger was part of the Trump campaign and when you realize this was a very, very bad idea. I mean, the whole Trump world.
- [20:44]
Sophia Kinzinger
Oh, January 6th changed everything for me. But let me bring you back to 2016. I worked for Boehner. For some reason, God has allowed me to be in different places at very critical Times where a lot is happening and moving and shifting politically. And when we were, when I was working for Boehner, we did see the rise of what Adam calls the Freedom
- [21:16]
Charlie Sykes
Club, the Freedom Caucus,
- [21:21]
Sophia Kinzinger
but sort of the moving to the right, trying to gain control of the party, even though when I guess the establishment from the party was trying to move more to the center after the Romney campaign, trying to reach out to different minorities, believed in coalitions, had this bright future ahead of this big tent welcoming people. And slowly things started moving within the party and moving more to the right. And it wasn't clear, I think it took several years for us who had been in the party to witness how drastic and fast this change was happening when Trump came in. And like I said, I was working with Hispanic outreach and such a difficult job during the 2016, I would think, and in my mind, my love towards the party, I was justifying everything as like, okay, somebody has to be in the table and sort of voice what needs to be said when all these discussions are happening. But also keep in mind that there was going to be a time to rebuild the party. I felt this sense of loyalty towards the party that I needed to stay there and when things didn't work out, somebody need to be there to try to move the right direction.
- [22:45]
Charlie Sykes
Those are very powerful things. And I think that people need to understand how powerful that gravitational pull of party loyalty is. And obviously the Trump years have questioned that. So your breaking point was January 6th, and now you're obviously in a different place. So just talk to me about this. You know that. And I think again, for listeners have a hard time sometimes understanding, well, you know, how you can be part of Trump world, Trump World, Trump world, and then suddenly realize, oh my God, this guy is a danger and a threat to democracy. You did not see that coming before January 6th. And then tell me about what you thought after January6.
- [23:32]
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- [25:31]
Sophia Kinzinger
so I married Adam, of course, before January 6th happened in 2020. In our first date, I remember we connected a lot with our frustrations within the party. What I just mentioned, things had moved so much to the right. I remember us understanding completely the role that the fear was having in the narrative. Everything became so dark when Trump came in and there was no hope. Everything was defeating Democrats and Democrats are coming to get you. And the manipulation of faith in that which we were all aware that was not right. Yet again, he got elected and there was a need to govern the country. In any normal administration, there's a shift between the electoral narrative to governing. That never happened with Trump. But Fast forward to 2020. Then Covid happened, obviously, and then it was all about emergency response and trying toit was chaos, but trying to serve the country the best we could. But then 2020 came and Adam was actually the first Republican to congratulate Biden on his win. And I remember he mentioned he was gonna tweet before he actually posted the tweet. And I was all for it. I mean, in my mind there's no reason why not to. Obviously, we didn't know what was going to follow. But January 6th hit, and for me, as a former staffer, was the ultimate betrayal. I had poured so much energy and so much of my personal life and sacrifices. It's working in the White House is a fast pace, chaos, stressful job that I had done the best way I could, and to see the manipulation, because this man just couldn't take the fact that he had lost the fact that I was serving him because I respected the people who had voted for him. Why couldn't he do the same and respect the power of the voters? For me, was the ultimate betrayal. Obviously, I. My boss, Mike Pence, played a huge part that day, and as a spouse, yes, it was a very tragic day.
- [28:02]
Charlie Sykes
And now you're in a very different place. So the other day, I was at a forum with somebody who was. We had a mutual friend from back in the before times, somebody who was a very, very active Republican, very prominent Republican woman here in Wisconsin. And he texted her and he said, I'm doing this thing with Charlie Sykes. And apparently she wrote back, I don't even think I know him anymore. And I'm thinking, okay, wait, you know, I mean, you've experienced this where you sort of stay the same and everybody else goes along with things that are kind of unimaginable, you know, did you ever envision that you would be in exile from that world? That's the way I've described it. I mean, it's more than just changing your job. It's like your entire professional universe, and you're looking at one another going, seriously, have I changed or have you changed? You know what I mean?
- [29:00]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah. No, it's been so bizarre, believe me, that at first we would ask that question often. Right. Are they seeing something I'm not seeing?
- [29:10]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [29:10]
Sophia Kinzinger
But for us, it was a series of decisions taken one after the other, based on what we knew was right. And, yes, there's been a lot of grief, obviously, personal relationships, but I think the hardest has been letting go of all the dreams and hopes that we had for this party that we poured so much into, and finding ourselves in a space where we don't see. We don't find really where we fit and trying to adjust at what we see. And it's been a journey. It's been a journey for sure. But looking back, I think we would do it again all over if we had to.
- [29:55]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, if people had not seen the movie the Last Republican about you and Adam, you get a sense of. Of what it Was. And of course, you know, we talk a lot about political courage and you never actually. People don't necessarily know how you'll react until the moment comes. And you and Adam stood up at great personal expense. And again, I mean, great personal cost, emotionally, politically, professionally and everything. So this feels like it dovetails into something you've become much more active on suddenly substack, as all great writers are these days. And you wrote a piece and then the headline really sort of grabbed me. You know, the rules changed and nobody told us. And you wrote about on trillionaire disappearing roadmaps and the fear that no parenting book prepares you for. And I think a lot of us are in this position of the rules are constantly changing on us and the difficulty of raising a child. What are the values? Just talk to me a little bit about what you meant by saying the rules changed. Nobody told us. Because you write that the country was built on a certain idea, the engine of the American dream, the idea that held us together as a people. A shared story. I'm watching that idea become something I can no longer fully defend to my son, Elon Musk. Becoming a trillionaire really made me stop and think, you know, not politically, just about politics, something deeper than that. It forced me to confront that we are actually living inside of now and what it means for the world my son will inherit. Because I think you and I both grew up with the sense that we had a roadmap. Right. We thought we understood what the contours of the world were and their changes. So talk to me a little bit about that because I think a lot of people feel that sense of disorientation.
- [31:54]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah. I mean, we have a four year old son. So I think in the past few years I've been able to start reflecting on everything politically with the lens of the role that we carry as parents and the responsibilities and how heavy things feel once you become a parent. And the world is moving extremely fast. And that when I heard the news of Musk and all these articles and news hosts trying to explain what that meant. Right. The concept of a trillionaire and it just feels unreal. And yes, the weight of how fast this world is moving and with the rise of AI, how that's changing industries, it's terrifying. And nobody tells you that as a parent you might be entering a world that you yourself might not know how to navigate. And now you're responsible to lead and give the proper tools to this new generation when you yourself don't even know where this is heading. And it's Extremely terrifying. And you mentioned the roadmap. I mean, I grew up with a dad, which I witnessed how his hard work delivered economic success and the value of education, and how if you do things right, you should build the life, a comfortable life with fulfilledness and feeling enough. And that feels out of hand nowadays. So, yeah, I mean, I wrote that piece, and I always have this down in the. Behind my mind because most of my readers are older than me. So I'm always like, do I have enough wisdom to share my perspective on these things? But, I mean, what I'm feeling, I'm sure other parents are feeling it, too. It is terrifying.
- [34:12]
Charlie Sykes
They are. Well, we all are feeling it. I mean, and it's funny, because this has kind of been a theme of some of these shows lately is the breakdown of things that. The consensus that, like, do we have a consensus about what the American story is? Do we have a consensus about what we're celebrating when we do celebrate the 250th anniversary? What is the history of the country? That's one. The second is the social contract, that sense that if you work hard, play by the rules, you'll get ahead. That the free market was, in fact, an engine for opportunity. All of those things that we believed now are really under threat, aren't they? And, you know, you've seen this where you say, you know, this is what I believed back in the before times, and maybe I was right, but it's morphed into something that we didn't see coming that's very, very unpredictable. And so I do think that a lot of people are. I mean, does the social contract work anymore? And I had this conversation with Ed Luce the other day. You get the sense that, do most Americans think that the economy works for them, or do they think it's rigged? Do they think that people in power care about them? Because you can spend your whole life working hard, following the rules and still get left behind, whereas a handful of megalomaniacs become richer than the dreams of avarice? And so here's the question, though. So what do you fall back on if the roadmap that you've been handed is no longer applicable? What's the answer to that? I don't have any answers.
- [35:51]
Sophia Kinzinger
So I also share a story in that substack about one that my dad shared with me, of how this wealthy guy once told him that he had made a decision to treat his money with dignity, that he had made that conscious decision, knowing how easy it is once you have money to lose the sense of Value of money. And this person lived a very comfortable life. He was not cheap. He didn't do it. Those reasons. He did it. To speak, stay morally grounded. And I think there. There's a lesson behind that. Right. That I think we, especially as parents, need to try to figure out what we decide to be true and ground us in that. Yes. There's a lot of stuff I do not have the answers to either, that we don't even know where we're heading towards.
- [36:46]
Charlie Sykes
Well, but I think that. Well, see, but that's. I think you've. You've, You've touched on it. If you don't have the role model, you have to go back to what is going to ground you. What is it you're going to hang on to? What is that moral center of your life? You may have to have that kind of moral or ethical gyroscope saying, all right, I'm going to have to decide. And I do think that one of the ways to do that is, frankly, and this is going to surprise some people, is to go back to some of those more traditional ideas, to go back to some of these traditions about character, about right and wrong. And I think that, you know, the AI revolution is going to be potentially devastating, but also I think that there's going to be a counter revolution, maybe a return to some of those basic verities, some of those basic virtues, to go back and reread what human beings thought and how they coped with things before their brains were taken over by phone. So, again, that kind of return to that moral core. And I'm sorry to go on about this, but maybe we took that for granted back in the days when we had the roadmap. Right. And now we can't take that for granted. So now maybe there will be this revival of understanding what that moral core is, because that may be all we have.
- [38:08]
Sophia Kinzinger
I agree. I think there's gonna be a lot of lessons learned through this term and a lot of awakening and reflection to do. I think so. And I think what I said, like the fear that I. That I draw me to write this, it's something most parents are feeling. And there's nothing more, I guess, that can mobilize voters than wanting that change for the better, knowing that we do need to correct some things because we've lost hope. That's. It's not. Nobody likes that. I mean, politics is supposed to bring hope and trust in a better future. And I think there's a desire. There's definitely a desire.
- [38:53]
Charlie Sykes
Well, that's one of the crises, you know, beyond, you know, right and left, there is this crisis of belief in the future. There's a new Fox News poll out showing that Americans faith in their government is at an all time low. I mean, that should be sending off alarm bells because when a democratic society loses faith and its government loses faith in the process, what have we got left? And so this is, by the way, and maybe I'm gonna go a little bit far afield here. This is why I think this debate between Trump and the Pope is so interesting because the Pope is like, here's this voice of ancient values who's pushing back against kind of, you know, the, the fake morality of the administration. And so, you know, one of the reasons why J.D. vance has had a bad week is of course he's, you know, coming out with the book about the conversion of Catholicism at a time when the Pope is, I think, reminding people, you know, in a very dramatic way that, you know, no, I'm sorry, this is not genuine Christianity. This is. So I think we're going to have a rethinking of all of that.
- [40:02]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah, I agree. I love this Pope. It's brought so much. Yeah, I love that he's being bold and he's not shying away and he knows the role he's playing and how it will rough some feathers. But he's all for it and I felt that. I love that. We needed it desperately.
- [40:23]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, we needed it desperately. The Church needed it desperately. And it is kind of remarkable when you reflect on, upon the fact that basically you have the head of this 2000 year old institution that is now vitally relevant in the current political and cultural debates, which is extraordinary. And I haven't actually written about this, but let me just float this out to you and see what you think about this is the is, you know, during the Dark Ages, it was the church that kept learning alive. You know, the monks who were subscribing and, you know, copying all the books out. And I'm not saying that AI and the current tech thing is a new dark age, but it's an age when a lot of things are going to be destroyed. And isn't it interesting that you have this ancient church which still may be preserving those values intact through our own kind of dark age, and that, you know, that we talk in terms of news cycles and the Pope is the head of an institution that has existed for centuries and centuries and centuries. So, so maybe the roadmap leads back someplace we've been in a long time
- [41:28]
Sophia Kinzinger
ago that is A good point. Because, yeah, faith lays out the universal rules of humanity. Right. Of just the basic things that will give us that joy and peace in civilization. Just. Yeah. The basic moral compass that has survived this long. So, yeah, I love that idea. I love it. It's the roadmap that has last through time. Yeah.
- [42:03]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's switch back to politics for a moment because we talk a lot, I think a lot about people who have played pivotal roles, how people are going to be remembered. By the way, it always surprises me the number of people that really, frankly don't care about how history is going to remember them or don't care about their legacy. They don't. But then there are some that do, including. And again, the audience is going to be mixed on this because I go back to January 6th. If Mike Pence would have gone the other way, the history of this country would be significantly different. It would have been. And how really surprising, given everything we know about MAGA world, that Mike Pence stood up to Donald Trump that day and he's continuing to speak out. And I'm kind of. I don't think there'll ever be a political. I mean, there will be a moment in the Republican Party that will welcome Mike Pence back. But what do you think Mike Pence is up to? I mean, the fact is he's been outspoken on a lot of these major issues. It feels like he's ramping up, very, very critical of this Iran deal. So what's your old boss up to these days? What's he doing?
- [43:16]
Sophia Kinzinger
So I haven't talked to him in a while, but he's a good man. He has good intentions. I'm glad he's speaking up. I actually saw the interview he did with Kaitlan Collins. I was actually in the kitchen making dinner and I saw him and we unmuted. I wanted to make sure that he was against the Iran war. To be honest, I didn't know where he was gonn because he has been outspoken, but he's been selective of what he's outspoken of and that I don't like. I think he believes the party can be rebuilt. I think he thinks that by offering an alternative, the base might take it. I do not see it that way. I don't think the Republican Party will ever go back to what it used to stand for. The Republican Party will have. It will take someone to come in with a completely fresh idea with a completely different pitch line and. And saw completely different vision. I'm glad he's still active, though, because I have Former bosses like Speaker John Boehner, who I wish was out there and decided not to. So I'm glad he's out there.
- [44:52]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, I mean, there are so many. I mean, there's Paul Ryan, there's John Boehner. I do wonder, and you've been doing this for a very long time as well, that people, People keep thinking, well, is this the breaking point? Will this be the moment? And so I'm very, very cautious about doing this. But it does seem that right now there's more of a willingness of elected Republicans to push back on Donald Trump, particularly in the United States Senate. I mean, there's this. This rift between Trump and John Thune and the leader, the Republican leaders of the Senate. This feels like a real thing. I don't know where it's going to go. But, you know, Trump seems less. Less interested in getting legislation passed than he is in finding various ways to humiliate his fellow Republicans. So, you know, the more voices, the better, saying that, okay, you know, I'm a conservative, but I actually agree with, you know, with some of this criticism. It's important. Every little bit, I think, contributes to. Maybe, but you don't see a return to normalcy anytime soon, do you?
- [45:58]
Sophia Kinzinger
No, no. That face that once elected, George Bush is no longer there. It's a completely different. There's no going back with different interest. It's. No, I don't think it's going back. And I think maybe long. You can strategize long term, like what I think Mike Pence is doing, but you can't strategize long term if you don't focus in the present, which is completely like showing the base that Trump was the wrong choice here. And in order to do so, it's not. There's no gray area. It's black and white. You have to confront it. And. Yeah, the party needs to hurt.
- [46:46]
Charlie Sykes
Well, that's right. I mean, the party. I mean, I'm trying to remember who it was who said this. The political parties don't change their ways until they've been defeated. Like in three consecutive elections.
- [46:55]
Sophia Kinzinger
Absolutely defeated. Yes. Yes.
- [46:58]
Charlie Sykes
The problem with that, of course, is that with Donald Trump and maga, they are never defeated. They will never acknowledge a defeat. If they lose an election, it will be because it's rigged. Right. So the refusal to ever acknowledge defeat is kind of a psychological problem. Although there does.
- [47:13]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah, good point.
- [47:15]
Charlie Sykes
How do you read the polls that would suggest that there are a growing number of Republicans, including Republicans, who are disillusioned with Donald Trump who are having buyer's remorse now, the MAGA base itself as, you know, solid, not gonna break. But, you know, what do you make of these? Like, for example, the new Fox poll showing how that he's lost so much support among even white working class voters. I mean, Hispanic voters, who I think were Trump curious for a while. Well, let me just ask you about that. Who are Trump curious for a while? They seem to have, after a year and a half of the ICE enforcement, to be completely disillusioned. I mean, Donald Trump has squandered whatever inroads he made with that community. Do you see it that way?
- [48:04]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah. I mean, so here's where. I mean, Hispanic voters supported Trump because of the economy. They wanted to go back to an era where things didn't feel stagnant. And I think under Biden, we were coming out of COVID but things very much felt stagnant. We had been in a weak economy for a long time and they wanted to feel like there was hope and progress being made economically. And I think in a way, the first term did provide that illusion. But let me just point out what happened in the first term. There were two things that brought the economy up that portrayed this illusion of progress and strength that was coming economically. And it was the tax cuts and deregulation that was done by the executive branch. The tax cuts were. It wasn't Trump's genius idea that he came up with this proposal. It was Republicans in the Congress, it was Paul Ryan and Kevin Brady who had fabricated this amazing bill, that whoever got elected, whatever Republican president, we would have come, would have taken that bill and that would have happened. So that was not Donald Trump. That was. The Republicans in Congress had this ready to go the moment a Republican president was elected. Deregulation happened, yes, in an extraordinary way, but it really did happen because during the Obama era, he was dealing with climate change. A lot of regulation happened all at once. And there was this so much red tape to be cut. So the Republican president who would have come in would have done the same thing, deregulated two things together, created this illusion of progress and economic hope. So then Biden came in and we faced a stagnant economy. We didn't feel we were achieving growth. So I think minorities, like Hispanics, wanted to go back to that illusion, feel like they were hopeful they could work three, four jobs and know that they were going to eventually work, won. They wanted sort of that hope. And where Trump did really good was the border. I think he just. Texas. I think he was 10 points over Harris just on the border with Hispanics. That was a huge accomplishment. But again, it was national security, it was the border. These Hispanics would justify, I guess they would overlook deportations and all the stuff they were talking about because they wanted border controlling the border. So a lot of variables that now,
- [51:09]
Charlie Sykes
so what do they think?
- [51:11]
Sophia Kinzinger
And they, I mean, economically just haven't delivered. We're not just stagnant, we're downhill.
- [51:20]
Charlie Sykes
Well, it's more than just the economy, isn't it? I mean, I would think that every Hispanic in America is, is looking at the ICE enforcement and that it's almost impossible not to have someone that, you know, with, you know, one or two removals who are affected by all of this. And that if you are of certain ethnicities, you know that every time you leave the house, you better have your papers with you because you are, you have a target on your back. I mean, that's gotta be driving it as much as the economy, isn't it?
- [51:50]
Sophia Kinzinger
Yeah, the polys have been abused and the lack of accountability. Hispanics don't like that. Hispanics don't like, they come, they come from countries where there is no accountability, where they grew up hearing all these stories from their parents and the lack of accountability and how the government couldn't be trust. And now here we are. Yeah, Hispanics do not like that.
- [52:17]
Charlie Sykes
No. And I think this is, I think the Republicans are gonna pay a huge price for all of that. But again, this is one of those self inflicted wounds on Donald Trump's party. If he had just simply focused on going at, if he had just focused on securing the border, number one and then number two had actually gone after the worst of the worst. I think there's generally a consensus that if you're a convicted felony, you've committed a serious crime, that you can be deported. But that's not what happened. And I think that on one of, you know, one issue after another, it's been the, you know, inability to like do the more common sense sort of sort of thing. Sophia Kinzinger, Emotional intelligence. Well, yes, and the toxic narcissism and the great man theory. I mean, if anybody takes anything away from this particular week, just remember that Donald Trump, even after this cosmic defeat, this how epic fury became epic surrender, is still comparing himself to Napoleon and Caesar and Alexander the Great and Mao and Hitler.
- [53:26]
Thomson Reuters Ad Voice
Wow.
- [53:26]
Charlie Sykes
I, you know, I'm not sure whether this is, this is the job of historians or psychologists to figure out what's going on here, but anyway, Sophia, thank you so much for all of your time. Thank you Charlie Link to your substack and the article that you wrote. The rules changed. Nobody told us. Thank you so much. And once again, thank you all for listening to this episode of the to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this? Because it is so urgently important with everything that's going on to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you. When everything is moving all at once, your workforce, your tech stack, your business, you don't need more tools. You need one solution. That's why Paylocity built a single platform to connect hr, finance and IT with AI driven insights and automated workflows that simplify the complex and power. What's next? Because when everything comes together in one place, growth comes easy experience. One place for all your HCM needs. Start now@paylocity.com 1 hi, this is Ben
- [54:42]
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