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Tara Palmieri
Did I talk too much?
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Charlie Sykes
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- [01:34]
Charlie Sykes
Jeffrey Epstein has shadowed and darkened almost every aspect of Donald Trump's first year back in office. And so we need to talk about that some more. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sachs. Hey, just a quick note. If you are a new viewer, if you enjoy conversations like this, please consider subscribing to our YouTube channel, Word of the Pod. Then of course we have the daily newsletter, the to the Contrary newsletter, which reminds us every single day that we are not the crazy ones, but the Epstein story. And the reason why we're spending some time on this again is because this is the one story. Amid all of the flotsam and the jetsam and the outrages, this is the one story that won't go away. Donald Trump has been a master of distraction and yet he has failed to distract from this story. Why does the Epstein story not go away and where is it going? We need to take a dive into that today. So my guest today is my go to source on all things Jeffrey Epstein, Tara Palmare, who is the host of the Tara Palmire show on YouTube and authors the substack newsletter, the Red Letter. Tara, thank you for coming back on the podcast. Appreciate it very much.
- [02:48]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, thanks for having me, Charlie. I'm always happy to be here.
- [02:51]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's start with talking about, because it hasn't been that long, Pam Bondi's appearance before the House committee where she refused to acknowledge the survivors and victims. So talk to me about Pam Bondi's performance and how the survivors reacted to that.
- [03:06]
Tara Palmieri
Oh, I mean, they were disgusted by and hurt like I think the rest of the country. It was a clown show. But, you know, she obviously doesn't understand the gravity of these crimes and what these women have been through. And she's the top law enforcement official in this country. And I think everyone should be concerned about that, that she really has very little regard for crime victims because at any time in our lives, we could all be crime victims. And, you know, to hear someone who clearly is. Thinks that the kind of crimes that they could were exposed to and experienced as children could in some way be okay because the Dow is up. I mean, it was.
- [03:45]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, that was a great answer. Yeah, well, it wasn't. Yeah. But now explain this to me, because it was not. Or correct me that it was not inevitable that the Trump administration would completely alienate the survivors and the victims. How is that in their interest? Because, I mean, at one time they were posing as the champions. Right. These are not, these are not survivors who you would necessarily want to break bad on you. And yet the Trump administration, Pam Bondi, has, appears to have no interest whatsoever in even expressing empathy toward them.
- [04:22]
Tara Palmieri
Right. I mean, it is weird because I don't think there are many people who, there aren't a lot of people out there who attack crime, victims of sex crimes, especially children. It's like the worst predation and worst type of crimes, I think, in humanity. And yes, while his administration and many of the people in it claimed to be defenders of these women and thought these crimes were horrific when they thought it was only Democrats who were committing the crimes. And they realized, lo and behold, their fearless leader was once a Democrat and very good friend of Jeffrey Epstein. And really, in his public statements, he never pushed for the release of the files. He didn't think it was a big deal. He kind of said, oh, we'll get to it if we get to it. But that was not him. That was the, that was the base. That was his. Those were his. Like, that was Cash Patel. That was others who, who felt that anger at the elites and tapped into it. And Trump, for the most part, is pretty deft at tapping into populist rage. Right. But this is one time he cannot and does not well, you wrote about
- [05:31]
Charlie Sykes
this in Vanity Fair last week and you, you said that this story has clearly rattled a president determined to shape the narrative of his legacy. You know, from what is ost, his final term inside the White House. You wrote the issue is treated less like unfinished business and more like radioactive waste. Something to be managed, contained and cleared away daily. But why have they not managed to contain this thing? I mean, we've bombed foreign countries, we're about to go to war with Iran, we went into Venezuela. None of those things have taken the Epstein files off of the front pages.
- [06:09]
Tara Palmieri
No, because it's so clear that Epstein orbits around Trump in his inner circle in their longstanding relationship. I really think that President Trump is lucky that their relationship dated into the 1990s when really email was not a thing and kind of like digital text communication. We know a lot about the relationships that Jeffrey Epstein had after his falling out with President Trump because they were all in email. And a lot of people just don't look at these testimonies from the survivors. Sadly, these 302 depositions as worthy of much more than gossip and rumor. And I think that's just the deep seated sexism in our country and the fact that people just tend to not believe survivors of sexual abuse. So take that away. But just look at the emails which are incredibly incriminating around this elite circle that's that was around every episode, which can include some of his very close friends and advisors. Steve Bannon, Elon Musk, Howard Lutnick, Dr. Oz inviting him to a hot a Valentine's day party in 2016 after he is a sex offender. So I think like, it's just too close. And if you take out one piece, it's like the whole domino fall and they all fall. The last domino to fall is him. There's no way that he's not dragged down with it. So he has to prop it all up. He's got to prop the house of cards up around Epstein. But Epstein's gravitational pull is way too strong and it's not going away. And every single day he has to answer to it. And just yesterday, as of recording this, he said on Tuesday night, I've been exonerated. I've been exonerated. That's all he can say about it.
- [07:49]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, I mean, that's his go to line.
- [07:51]
Tara Palmieri
If you've been exonerated, then get then. Now what about justice?
- [07:55]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you wrote the two men remain locked in association and Epstein holds the upper hand. Now that's interesting because one man is dead. The other man is the most powerful man in the world. So how can Epstein hold the upper hand over Donald Trump? What did you mean?
- [08:09]
Tara Palmieri
Well, he holds the hand of the narrative of Donald Trump's presidency. And if we know anything about President Trump, narratives are everything that is his specialty, is controlling the narrative. And I remember this. When I was a White House correspondent for abc, you know, I would talk to White House officials, but one of them was pretty candid with me, and they said, you know, he puts out tweets saying, my nuke is bigger than yours, Kim Jong Un. Not because he's necessarily thinking I'm doing anything, because he knows it rattles you all and you get all in a tizzy, meaning the reporters, and we can keep you on that story for a while. And that's the power that Donald Trump flexes and uses, and he can't do that with the Epstein story.
- [08:55]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's go back to what you mentioned before about the dominoes, whether it's the house of cards. I'm gonna use a slightly different analogy. The blast radius of this keeps growing day by day. You and I are having this conversation on Wednesday. It is Wednesday, right? You lose track of time in Trump world and internationally. You have had governments who have been rattled, ambassadors who have had to step down business. Just this week, the CEO of Hyatt Hotels, Pritzker, had to step down. It does seem as if there's kind of this rolling accountability for everyone not in the Trump administration. In fact, the split screen between all of the people who have been caught up in Epstein have lost their jobs. Whether we're talking about internationally or in the business community is really kind of in stark contrast to. To Donald Trump's nothing to see here. I'm not going to fire anybody. No one resigns. That's not sustainable.
- [09:57]
Tara Palmieri
Right, I know. It's. It's really. It's an incredible contrast. Think about this. The Polish government is investigating whether Epstein had any ties to Russia because of his close connections to tech expats. You know, Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister. His entire leadership hangs in the balance because he appointed Peter Mandelson to UK Ambassador to the US I mean, what. What? President Trump has appointed people within his own cabinet or kept very close counsel with people who have even closer, some could say, relationships with Jeffrey Epstein. And where's the accountability here? Where's the independent counsel?
- [10:34]
Charlie Sykes
Well, what's your. What's your thought? Why is Howard Lutnick still have his job? Is it because Donald Trump just does not want to let the libs ever have a scalp, is that it?
- [10:41]
Tara Palmieri
Exactly. And actually I think if anything, this has kept. People really don't like Howard Lutnick in Trump's world. They have never liked him. But if anything, this has really solidified his position in Trump's orbit because he is not, on Epstein, going to give an inch.
- [10:57]
Charlie Sykes
Now you cover this on a granular level. Where are we at now on the release of the Epstein files, which is a backdoor way of saying are we seeing a continued cover up? Would you describe what the DOJ is doing as a cover up going forward?
- [11:13]
Tara Palmieri
Yes, I do. Because if we know that two and a half million files of the six million they claim to exist are not going to be produced and we don't know why. So they're all for national security. I actually think that's relevant. Why was he so tied to national security that we can't know this? Right? I mean that's a central question. And when you see in the files that his own lawyers asked for his affiliation with the NSA and the CIA in a request and they got the glomar response, which is a. We can neither confirm or deny because it could, you know, impact classified documents, sources, etc. You know, that is very concerning. In my own reporting, I interviewed a lawyer for the victims, Brad Edwards, he's one of the most prominent attorneys on this and he spoke to Jeffrey Epstein's bodyguard who told him that when Jeffrey Epstein was in prison in 2008, not prison, excuse me, county jail, that he was sent to Langley to pick up documents for Jeffrey Epstein.
- [12:09]
Charlie Sykes
Lang Jeffrey Epstein, CIA headquarters.
- [12:11]
Tara Palmieri
Exactly. He was also close with Bill Burns. You know, Bill Burns acknowledged that he was helping him find a job when he left State. He was the ex CIA director. As we know, State and CIA work very closely together. I, after doing a lot of work on this story over many years since 2019, I've come to believe that Jeffrey Epstein was a sort of hyper fixer and he provided value to a number of governments. And I think that that is how he was able to, how he was able to provide value and therefore he was not. He was able to get these sweetheart deals like I think that he offered access, power, influence to governments as well. And I don't think just the US Government.
- [12:57]
Charlie Sykes
Well, see that's what is so extraordinary is, is the extent of this, this network and the number of people that are involved in this. And it, you know, it's not sufficient to say that the guy was a billionaire or he was a gl, had an island I mean, like, what was going on here? So you just used the term hyper fixer for other governments and for our government. Well, okay, so for our government. But, but, but who else? You know, what do you make of the speculation about, about Russia about you know, being, you know, you know, the, basically the, the honey trap, you know, massive honey trap. What do you think about Mossad? What other governments using like old school
- [13:31]
Tara Palmieri
KGB tactics of honey traps? Like.
- [13:34]
Charlie Sykes
That's right.
- [13:35]
Tara Palmieri
That's pretty old school. Yeah, I remember, like, I've seen it like up close actually, this, with like Russian oligarchs doing this. It's, it's really kind of quite classic. Now, I'm not saying he actually worked for Russia. I actually, of. Of all the connections, that one I find to be the most dubious because I wondered, like, why would he have to go through like the Norwegian Prime Minister to get to Putin if he had such close relationships? But he was certainly very close with Ehud Barak, who was the Defense Minister and Prime Minister in Israel and who stayed in his apartments in the Upper east side when he visited.
- [14:11]
Charlie Sykes
This story just, this story keeps getting better and worse. I mean, I'm sorry, bigger and worse at the same time. I mean, we are talking about an international conspiracy on a level that, look, people have been interested in the story for some time, but what you're describing is, is a global sex trafficking conspiracy that may involve multiple governments. And then that would also explain the COVID ups, the slow walking, the soft treatment that he enjoyed for so many years, doesn't it? I mean, it kind of clicks together if you see it in that way.
- [14:50]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, it does. Yeah. You have to kind of see it that way. I don't think anyone has ever, you know, basically walked around with this level of impunity considering the crimes that he has actually committed.
- [15:06]
Charlie Sykes
Are you at all, you've been, you've been on this for so many years now. Are you at all surprised by the scope, the number of people now that are going down in business, People who used to work in the Obama White House?
- [15:18]
Tara Palmieri
I think it should have happened sooner. I mean, why is Les Wexner's name all over Ohio State University still? I know he had to step down from L Brands, which he founded, which was Victoria's Secret. But like, why is he not being dragged into the SDNY right now? Well, why is he not being like, these are all. You know, last night I was on MSNBC and they asked me, who would you call before Congress to testify? And it was a kind of a last minute, you know, I didn't get this question in advance, so I named. I rattled off about six names, but then I was thinking about it overnight. My head was spinning, and I was like, oh, my God. And coming up with all these names and. And now I've got all this. This list.
- [15:55]
Charlie Sykes
So who would you invite? Who are the names? Who do you think should be asked to testify?
- [16:00]
Tara Palmieri
Okay. I started texting them to my producer because I was like, I want to do this on my show. This is in addition to the people who've already been called, like the Clintons. Trump obviously hasn't been called, but he should be Les Wexner, who's already been called, and obviously Alex Acosta, who's already been called, but I would actually call his deputy, Marie Villafana, who put together the case in 60 counts against him. And that case was dropped. What did she know? Why was it dropped? Ken Starr, his chef, Adam Perry Lang, who's all over the flight logs and served a lot of the girls. Ehud. Barack, obviously. Andrew Man Windsor, Elon Musk, Howard Lutnick, Dr. Oz, Peter Attia, Larry Summers, Michael Cohen. I mean, Epstein says Michael Cohen knows everything. Right. Larry Summers, Leslie Groff, his assistant, Sarah Kellen, his other assistant, Noam Chomsky, although he's, like, basically close to death. Tom Barrick, Benjamin Netanyahu. Let's ask Vladimir Putin, even though he would never come.
- [17:04]
Charlie Sykes
But, like, this is amazing. Just the list of names underlies what we've been talking about. What do you think Hillary Clinton. What will it be like when Hillary Clinton testifies in public before Congress? You think that'll happen, first of all? And what do you think is going through her head? What do you think that's how that. How will that play out?
- [17:25]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, so I think that she will, you know, she's going to say she doesn't have a lot of knowledge of it. Like, why would she have knowledge of necessarily everything that's going on with Bill? Right.
- [17:39]
Charlie Sykes
Bill would not be telling her.
- [17:40]
Tara Palmieri
Like, calling in the wife is like one of the, you know, if is. Is. It's a strong move in discovery if you're actually. If you're actually going to very prosecute. I mean, I, I don't think pills. Hands are clean in this story by any means.
- [17:59]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, and no one does.
- [18:00]
Tara Palmieri
Doug Band. Oh, I forgot him. Like, that's another one who. Band would be a good person to call Doug Band, who's long been like, the kind of consigliere of the, you know, the Clinton circle that he should be called, because I Think he was having, you know, he was messaging a lot with Glenn Maxwell in ways that were pretty provocative. So, yeah, he definitely needs to be called in.
- [18:25]
Charlie Sykes
So if there is an ongoing cover up. And let's go back to where we began with the Pam Bondi testimony. You were very close with the survivors and the victims. Just talk to me a little bit about what they're thinking and feeling right now because this year has been a really a rollercoaster ride for them, thinking that perhaps no one was going to listen and then thinking that maybe the dam was going to break. What is the mood right now for them? Because they're, you know, it feels as if we're back to the point where they want to tell their story, they volunteer to tell their story and their story is not being believed. You've seen this on social media. After the bond, the Bondi hearing, there were a lot of MAGA types who were attacking them, vilifying them, re victimizing them. So what are you hearing from them?
- [19:14]
Tara Palmieri
I mean, they're pretty jaded at this point and dejected and there's a lot of anger and at the same time they're happy that the story is actually being high like that people are finally talking about it for so long nobody cared when they were beating the drum. But it's really like, it's, they're hopeful, like they're hopeful that people like Thomas Massie and Ro Khanna will keep going into those classified briefing document rooms and reveal that, yes, in that email about the torture video, it's actually some Emirati sultan that's, that's being redacted. Not the name of a victim or, or why were they redacting the name less in front of Wexner? Not the names of the actual survivors. What's in the text of what Donald Trump told the. One of the lawyers who I believe to be Brad Edwards, because he told me that he had a conversation with Donald Trump. You know what's in that text that's been completely redacted. I mean we, we. Are they going to have to go through the three million files? Oh, what about the two and a half million other files? I really think the entire, like heads of whoever was head of the CIA for the past three decades and FBI, like they have to be called Justice Departments. Yeah, I know Bill Barr, technically he was dragged in, but like when the fact that he was even on an FBI. FBI. He was on an FBI, I guess you could call it presentation on who they could possibly prosecute or they were, they had tips or Leads on, which is like, wow, here we are.
- [20:44]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, here, here we are.
- [20:48]
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- [21:33]
Charlie Sykes
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Tara Palmieri
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- [21:51]
Charlie Sykes
0.5 milligrams, 1 milligram and 2 milligrams. Okay, you mentioned a name before. Actually a couple of names before, including journalist Michael Wolff. And in your Vanity Fair piece, you talked about how, you know, Epstein had worked behind the scenes various times to humiliate Trump through journalists like Michael Wolff. So talk to me about the relationship between Epstein and Michael Wolff. Michael Wolff has always been a. This is the nicest word I can use. Problematic figure. You know, he's out there saying he's got all this stuff, but, you know, he's played both sides of the. Of the fence here, hasn't he? So talk to me about Epstein and Michael Wolff.
- [22:37]
Tara Palmieri
He doesn't make our business look great. Let's just say.
- [22:40]
Charlie Sykes
No, he does not.
- [22:41]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, no, but, yeah, no, he had a very close relationship with Jeffrey Epstein for a very long time, including trying to get him with New York. Sorry. He wanted to get Jeffrey and Weinstein with Mort Zuckerman together to buy New York magazine for him so he could run it. Like, it's just really, you pick the biggest sleaze bags in the whole world. Imagine we would have never had a Me too movement with that kind of power to own, you know, New York magazine. Maybe we would never know all these stories at all. It was before even Epstein was arrested. But yeah, Michael seemed to be enchanted with Jeffrey Epstein and his life, their closeness, their. The way they emailed with each other, how he was trying to give him advice on how to repair his image. It was really. It was something else. I found it to be incredibly disturbing. But I think what really crossed the line for me was the fact that he was willing to take his Money.
- [23:33]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, that's a pretty big line.
- [23:34]
Tara Palmieri
I mean, even sending a picture of him and his wife, like, from their honeymoon or from their wedding day, it was just very bizarre.
- [23:42]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. It does bother me how many years that people continue to take Michael Wolf seriously as a journalist. I mean, they're, They're. Has been more than a few red lights flashing on that. Okay, so what's going on with Michael Cohen? Michael Cohen, who is the fixer for Donald Trump turned fierce critic of Donald Trump. What the hell is going on with him?
- [24:05]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, that's a good question. So, like, yeah, Michael Cohen is weirdly now aligning himself with the right as he.
- [24:14]
Charlie Sykes
What? What?
- [24:15]
Tara Palmieri
It seems to me like he wants a pardon and he wants to get back in with Trump's inner circle. And he realizes that there is a big shadow. And I think this all comes at the same time that he realizes that there's a really big shadow hanging over him in regards to the Epstein story. What did he know? When did he know it? What? Why? Like, when is he going to come clean? Because, you know, President Trump was sued by Jane Doe three times, and the same Jane Doe, she kept moving the case around, but her name was Katie Johnson. That was her Jane Doe name. And she kept moving around. She. She kept suing him until two days before the election. She dropped the suit, citing intimidation. Never heard from her again. Right. This was at the same time he was dealing with stormy Daniels, Karen McDougal.
- [24:59]
Charlie Sykes
Paying women off. Yeah, he was the. Yeah, he paid people off.
- [25:02]
Tara Palmieri
Right.
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Charlie Sykes
To go away.
- [25:03]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah. And so I interviewed him back in the summer because I saw him on msnbc, and he was just like, trump never went to the island. I know that. I can tell just from the way Trump talks. And I was like, wait, what? Why is Michael Cohen denying this? What does he know? Oh, wait, he knows everything, I'm sure. So I asked him to come on my show, and I tried to get something out of him, and he said he didn't know about. He knew about one Jane Doe that he worked on. He said it was an infant, and that. That Trump told him to handle it, to fix it, that it was bullshit. So he sent a private investigator to try to find the girl, and he said that the lawyer dropped it. And so his story keeps shifting on this, but there's no doubt in my mind that he knows something, at least about at least one Jane Doe and Donald Trump, and he hasn't come completely clean about it. So, you know, I think that's really valuable information. I would call him and he'd be one of the first people I would call.
- [25:52]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, it's an extraordinary story. I mean, he was Donald Trump's, you know, inside fixer and thug. And I remember, you know, back in 2017, and I'm trying to remember who it was. I was on a cable panel with somebody who is a friend of his now I do remember. And he was saying, you know, trying to talk about, you know, the conscience of Michael Cohen. And I said, no, this is Michael Cohen. He's the fixer. He's the guy who calls you up and beats you up. And then he transformed himself, you know, as, you know, as people have done, but it really dramatically goes on what media and you know, has a very, very successful podcast of being a really, really, you know, fierce Trump critic. And so it was kind was really sort of disconcerting to watch him now try to flip back to, you know,
- [26:33]
Tara Palmieri
I'm, it's like he, he's looking for whatever is the most convenient for him. It's, I don't know, his true stripes came out. You can't work for a guy like that for so long and, and be in charge of fixing, you know, complaints of from women. Like that's your job. And then now you want to be a liberal darling. Like, it doesn't work that way. And plus you lied to Congress to protect him. And then like, you know, it's just like, what else would you lie about?
- [27:03]
Charlie Sykes
Well, he's already been to jail, so he's, he's gone through that experience. Okay. So yeah, the Michael Cohen thing, whatever. So what do you think? What comes next with the Epstein files? Because you had Pam Bondi basically say, I don't give a shit, I'm not going to turn around, I'm not going to look them in the eyes. You get sense that the investigation is closed. Donald Trump over and over again is saying the whole thing is a hoax. The DOJ has decided it is going to withhold millions of these documents and redact and can keep redacting. So what happens next? Are we in a holding pattern until after the midterm elections when Congress might be more aggressive? What do you think? What do you think?
- [27:45]
Tara Palmieri
I hope that they continue. I hope that they actually like if Democrats win the House, I hope they use their subpoena power to actually hold hearings.
- [27:53]
Charlie Sykes
Well, they will. Don't you think?
- [27:56]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, I do and I hope they will. And I hope that they're actually televised hearings before Congress, not these closed door hearings.
- [28:06]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I mean, I think that I would, I would think that that would be the major thing that will happen. But I do think it's interesting. And your point in Vanity Fair though was that this story feels different than almost every other story that we've talked about in the Trump era because it won't go away. As you point out, Jeffrey Epstein has hijack Trump's presidency and I think Trump and his staff seem to feel that. Okay, so let's just shift gears a little bit to the news of the day and the various stories about ice. And I know you've been following this as well. What is your take on the withdrawal of ICE from Minneapolis? The attempt to substitute the kinder and gentler face of Tom Homan? Is the administration de escalating?
- [28:57]
Tara Palmieri
Isn't it weird to think that Tom Homan, the guy who took $50,000 in a Cava cash bag for access to government contracts, is the kinder, gentler face of.
- [29:06]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, he's also Tom Homan Mean. Yeah. Yes, it is. It is. That's why I asked it that way. I mean, there are people buying it like, well, you know, at least now we don't have Greg Bovino and Christine. No.
- [29:17]
Tara Palmieri
Oh, the guy who likes to dress up as a fascist. Cool like that.
- [29:22]
Charlie Sykes
Apparently that caught up with him. So where is Kristi Noem in all this? We talked about Pam Bondi. Now, Kristi Noem is very, very anxious to not have people think that she's been sidelined by all of this. And yet obviously she's an embarrassment. Where's she at?
- [29:39]
Tara Palmieri
Well, I mean, this is. Yes, I think you nailed it when you said she's an embarrassment. She is highly ambitious and wants to run for president. So everything that happens right now is something that impacts her political future in her mind, which is partially why she likes to, you know, be so forward facing and act like. And essentially she's like ICE Barbie with all these videos and everything. It's just, it's out of control. Right? Like, it's just she wants to be the face of this aggression. But it's crazy when you see these FOIAs, like you see these, these freedom of information requests revealing that people at the highest levels of ICE knew how aggressive their agents were and they did nothing about it. And at some point, like two Americans died. When are we going to get down to the bottom of this? Will there be any sort of retribution? And now they won't even include the local police in their findings from the Alex Preddy, you know, speaking of coverups. Yeah, exactly. And then Trisha McLaughlin, who's a spokesperson. You know that when the spokesperson leaves, it's always really bad, right?
- [30:51]
Charlie Sykes
Well, no, tell me about that. I don't, I don't know her or really have. She's not on my radar screen. But I know that you've, you've interacted with her in the past. What do we make of that? Just moving on in life or what happened?
- [31:03]
Tara Palmieri
I mean, that's the way they want to frame it. They said that even before Renee Good and Alex party, she was looking to leave, but I don't know, is she a fall guy? She get. Is she covering her hide or was she really planning to leave back in December?
- [31:16]
Charlie Sykes
She doesn't want to have this on her resume anymore.
- [31:20]
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- [32:19]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay. You said something very interesting, which I think is one of the most fascinating stories of the year, which is that clearly Kristi Noem and her aide Corey Lewandowski, leave that story aside for the, for the moment, really wanted to have these videos. They wanted the ICE raids to be recorded. They made that sizzle reel of the agents rappelling into the apartment building in.
- [32:44]
Tara Palmieri
Such instincts. What do they think? Such bad instincts.
- [32:48]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you're right. I mean, and it's backfired so spectacularly because in fact, the social media they thought was going to weaponize what they were doing, in fact has undermined it. Because I don't know about your social media feed. Mine is absolutely. Day by day, one abuse after another, all caught on videotape. Right? I mean, those pictures have changed the political dynamic of, of the entire issue. Those people with cell phones taking those videos and posting.
- [33:18]
Tara Palmieri
You can't produce your raids. This is just not the. We're not in that time. We all have cameras now, which is amazing for democracy. It's frightening with AI, but it's. It is, it is a. We're lucky that we have that in this period of time, because imagine if only the government could control information and had the Phones. And at least we have the phones to do it, because we can't trust this government with the information. But then now you hear. I'm sorry, I just want to tell you something. I found out this morning about what they're doing in terms of trying to control. They've been using aggressive subpoenas to target social media users, people on Facebook and Instagram, for criticizing the agency, prompting legal battles. Like, they're going after people who. They don't like. Their posts about DHS and ice.
- [34:10]
Charlie Sykes
Give me what.
- [34:12]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, okay.
- [34:13]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, like, what? Yeah, well, I did remember that one story where somebody had criticized them, and then they basically went after that person for what they're doing now. By the way, you know, talk about the irony, because you and I both probably remember when Donald Trump and MAGA were posing as the defenders of free speech, that we know when Donald Trump was. Was inaugurated, he said, I'm going to issue this executive order. The government will never be used to suppress free speech. Apparently, that was not really what he was planning on doing because they seem rather obsessed with going after critics, don't they? Whether they're sitting members of Congress, people in the media, or. You're telling me just people on Instagram were posting this stuff. What can you do to someone on Instagram?
- [35:01]
Tara Palmieri
What happens the Wild west right now, man, I have no idea. We're in a really weird territory. I mean, literally sued the Wall Street Journal for reporting on something that came from the Epstein estate. A card signed allegedly by Donald Trump in the shape of a woman's body. It's like, what? Yeah, they're just gonna sue, sue, sue, sue, sue. They're so sue happy.
- [35:29]
Charlie Sykes
Whether they win or lose or.
- [35:31]
Tara Palmieri
You don't even know half the time what's going on.
- [35:35]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you're a broadcast veteran. What do you make of what happened at cbs? I know everybody's talking about this, but what happened with CBS with Stephen Colbert and. And the equal time rule? And I'm bringing this up because they're using the FCC as a cudgel. They've gotten an. And they don't actually have to do anything because the networks will capitulate in advance. Abc, your former network, you know, paid some money, cbs. What do you make of all of that? The willingness of these companies just to roll over and to cancel interviews because they don't want to make Brendan Carr mad at them.
- [36:20]
Tara Palmieri
Well, certainly helps us in our business and the independent media business, because no one tells me not to do stuff. Okay, but what do I think? I feel sorry for everyone who's still there. You know, this is not why they're journalism business. There are much more lucrative businesses than being journalists, I can tell you that. Except for maybe like, Robin Roberts and George STEPHANOPOULOS, who make $20 million a year. But the rest of every. But everybody else, a lot of them are true believers in the First Amendment and free speech, and they didn't go into this business for money. And so I think it's really disheartening for them. I mean, you just saw that Anderson Cooper decided he's not renewing his deal with 60 Minutes after being there for two decades, and that's under the leadership of Barry Weiss. We've got real problems with our broadcast networks, and really, you know, they're the ones. Well, before apps, like, it was really the only way to get information for free. Because it's free broadcast, right?
- [37:25]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [37:26]
Tara Palmieri
Right now things have changed. It's been democratized more with our phones and Internet and all the access we can get. Most people have access to, you know, other ways of getting information, but I just think they're losing their relevancy even quicker with all of this. And like, yes, I'm, like, I'm so happy that Stephen Colbert is torching that place. On the way out, tell us everything they're doing. Tell us everything.
- [37:49]
Charlie Sykes
Because that was remarkable, that not only did they try to shut him down, but then Stephen Colbert's reaction was to defy them and then to expose them. And I wrote the other day, I said, this is the way to do it.
- [38:02]
Tara Palmieri
I'm already out.
- [38:05]
Charlie Sykes
That's right. Now somebody asked me the other day, oh, well, it's easy for Stephen Colbert because he's got nothing to lose. He's already on the way out. He probably makes $15 million a year, you know. You know, I said, well, wait, we've had a lot of rich people who have, you know, bowed, you know, taken a knee for Donald Trump. So simply, having money is not. But I think the point you're making is also that. That in many ways, not only are they destroyed their brand, but they are empowering the. The transformation of the media with, you know, this feel like self promotion, but. But independent media, there are places to go. Don Lemon is bigger than ever right now after being arrested. Would you agree?
- [38:43]
Tara Palmieri
I mean, I'm sorry for him that he's feeling the. The stress of a legal battle, which, you know, everybody knows that's exhausting. And you don't know that you'll always have enough funds for that. But still, like his journalism is getting more eyeballs than ever before. He's getting applauded at the Grammys. For an independent media owner, that's not bad, you know, and.
- [39:04]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, yeah, so again, shifting slightly the story out of CBS and the story of, you know, Colbert and he was going to interview. Well, he did interview James Talarico. And by the way, the real irony, of course, is that Talarico, the interview did air on YouTube. I think it's had 5 million views. This is the Streisand effect on steroids. James Talarico is a Democratic candidate for the United States Senate in Texas. He's got a primary against Jasmine Crockett. This is for the first time in a long time, not completely insane to think the Democrats might pick up a Senate seat in Texas because the Republicans might actually nominate the deeply deplorable, deeply awful.
- [39:52]
Tara Palmieri
I wouldn't want to watch my dog like, let alone vote for him. God, that guy's creepy. No,
- [40:03]
Charlie Sykes
I can't even believe he's still in the race. And I think that John Cornyn is the incumbent Republican senator. And I actually think there are a lot of people in the Republican Party who are thinking, how did Ken Paxton survive the scandals that he's been involved? He's faced criminal charges. His wife left him, said he was having an affair. He's still in the line.
- [40:23]
Tara Palmieri
What she said, she's like, I'm leaving him for biblical reasons.
- [40:27]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, biblical reasons. And yet the guy is still in the race and he might win the primary. Right.
- [40:33]
Tara Palmieri
Incredible.
- [40:35]
Charlie Sykes
So talk to me a little bit about Texas politics. Am I crazy to suggest that Texas,
- [40:39]
Tara Palmieri
it's like crazy based politics. You got Steve Bannon down there ginning it all up. It's a lot about getting the base voters out. I mean, which was how I think it's fair to say. Jasmine Crockett had a few points on James Talarico before Colbert. Let's see what the, what the outcome is now. But she was really banking on getting out the Democratic base. Right. And same thing with the Republican base there. They're pretty energized on both sides. And Ken Paxton, he speaks their language, Right. John Cornyn is to establishment like.
- [41:15]
Charlie Sykes
Right. I think he looks establishment. Yeah, yeah, he looks establishment.
- [41:19]
Tara Palmieri
He's an old guy. He was in leadership. Like people associate him with Mitch McConnell, like whether he likes it or not. Right. Wesley Hunt is like a younger version coming in second right now. But because it's a three way race, you might automatically give it to Paxton, who was, I think last spring Paxton was like 10 points ahead of or 12 points ahead of corn. And now they tighten the race up a bit, but still.
- [41:44]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and if he gets the nomination, he could be like a Roy Moore, maybe. People remember, you know, Roy Moore, who was the Republican candidate for Senate in Alabama and yet lost and a Democrat won in Alabama. I want people to think about that. A Democrat won a Senate race in Alabama.
- [41:59]
Tara Palmieri
Held the seat for like a minute.
- [42:01]
Charlie Sykes
Well, but he won the election. But. So, Ken. Yes, he did hold that seat, but he, you know, Doug Jones was a good senator, but he's a nice guy. Paxton could lose, but I think a lot of people are kind of, you know. And again, the other freak out is that a lot of people are thinking that Jasmine Crockett is exactly the wrong. She's too far to the left, you know, not a swing voter candidate, which is why there's so much interest in Talarico. But Texas is also interesting because this is a state that gerrymandered itself under the assumption that Hispanic voters and other voters who'd voted for Donald Trump in 2024 would continue to vote for Republicans. And there are a lot of indications that that is not happening. I mean, can you imagine?
- [42:41]
Tara Palmieri
Interesting, though, like I will say there is with a lot of the immigrant culture, like, last one in the door. Right. We know that they're not all. They don't want to open the borders when they live on a border state and they think we fought to get in here. A lot of them, they're, they're Texan, Mexicans. They came here when it was Mexico, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's. They have a different view about it.
- [43:03]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Tara Palmieri
So I don't want to all Hispanics in the same bucket together because they certainly are all. Not many of them are very conservative, especially Catholics are very conservative, too. But yeah, there's definitely a lot of concern. And Democrats are like, they throw so much money at Texas, it's like they're white whale every single term. I know that's kind of a. Yeah, it's a little bit of a cliche to say it, but it is a cliche how they handle it every single year.
- [43:26]
Charlie Sykes
I know every year the Republicans like,
- [43:28]
Tara Palmieri
truly eff it up. This year, it's not like they're running against Ted Cruz, you know, they're running against Paxton Cornyn. Honestly, like, I know this sounds crazy, Charlie, and you covered politics forever, and I have, too. Most people never give up power unless forced, dragged from them. They're like, literally, like they're pushed into Such a corner that they can't do anything but give up the power. But Cornyn just didn't run for reelection. Like, how old is he right now? Right. If he just didn't run, then that would give Wesley Hunt a shot and probably secure the seat.
- [44:04]
Charlie Sykes
How old is he? It does seem that there's this culture that if, that if you're, if you're not 89, then you're fit to go, you're ready to go.
- [44:13]
Tara Palmieri
He's out. Okay. And like, I don't mean to be a dick or ageist, but this is really about the culture now. And really it's about. It's about making way for the next gen. And I mean, do you think people will vote for him? Because they're like, well, he's been in leadership and that's great. I don't think that's what riles up the base anymore. They don't like Washington, they hate their members, they want fresh blood. That it's going to disrupt. It's all about disruption. It's hard to prove you're disrupting.
- [44:41]
Charlie Sykes
I think that's exactly right. There are moods in electoral cycles and this is clearly a year for disruption. I think that's exactly right. Okay, one last question. In the time that we have left, how seriously should we take what Donald Trump is doing about elections? I mean, in the last week, he's actually now musing about a third term. Again, serious, not serious, nationalizing elections. What do you make of all that? How much of that is just Trumpian trolling?
- [45:09]
Tara Palmieri
I don't think he can do it because he's lost so much power. How do you think he really has that much control over Congress that voted for the Epstein Files Transparency Act? He doesn't have the same sort of sway that he used to have. The Republican Party is hanging on by its Heather. You have to change the Constitution. To actually do this, you need 2/3 ratification in the Senate. Like they. Democrats may get 50 votes in the Senate. Like they just. The numbers don't add up. And every single day his political gravitas weakens. It just does. And so he can muse all he wants, but I don't think it's actually going to happen. And yes, like, there are times where maybe we. I personally didn't think that this term was going to be quite as radical as it was, for sure. I don't think anyone did. I don't even think he did. I think he's like, wait, I'm getting away with all this. This is crazy, right?
- [45:57]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I think I think he's surprised. Yeah.
- [46:00]
Tara Palmieri
But I think he's also seeing that his grip is slipping. His grip is definitely slipping. I mean, you just can't do it without the numbers. You need a Congress to pull that off.
- [46:10]
Charlie Sykes
I just wonder that as he feels slipping. What does a megalomaniac do? Megalomaniac becomes more dangerous rather than less dangerous when they start to feel power slipping away. What do you think?
- [46:19]
Tara Palmieri
How do you do it without Congress? How do you change the Constitution without Congress?
- [46:24]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, you don't. You don't change the Constitution. And this notion that somehow you can issue an executive order that will require voter id, I just, I don't quite see how that will work there. Does feel like there's kind of a throwing spaghetti up against the wall. Tara Palmieri, thank you so much for all your time today. I appreciate it very much. You can watch Tara on the Tara Palmyra show on YouTube or read her work at the Red Letter on substack. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We do this and we will continue to do this for the duration because you know, you know what I'm gonna say, right? We need to remind ourselves we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [47:22]
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- [48:18]
Charlie Sykes
Prices and participation may vary. Taxes, tips and fees.
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Charlie Sykes
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Charlie Sykes
Hey, so here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to HTTPs. They added that colon.
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Tara Palmieri
Yeah. Gotta check on that. God, no.
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Charlie Sykes
I wish I were dead.
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Charlie Sykes
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