Podcast Summary
Podcast: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Garrett Graff: America Tips Into Fascism
Date: September 9, 2025
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Garrett Graff (Pulitzer Prize finalist, historian, journalist, host of The Long Shadow podcast)
Episode Overview
This episode features an in-depth and candid discussion between Charlie Sykes and Garrett Graff about the ominous political developments in the United States under the second Trump administration. Drawing from Graff’s recent essay, "America Tips Into Fascism," they analyze the blurring of democratic norms, the assertion of unchecked executive power, and the collapse of traditional guardrails. The conversation is urgent, sobering, and focused on understanding the mechanics, consequences, and societal reactions to the nation's apparent slide into authoritarianism.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
The "Different" Moment: America’s Political Climate in August 2025
- The Tipping Point:
Graff describes how August felt noticeably different (03:08), with "a shift in the air" marked not by one event, but an accumulation of anti-democratic actions.- Federal takeover of D.C., armed National Guard deployed against city officials’ wishes
- Trump’s economic interference: U.S. government stake in Intel, unconstitutional export taxes on NVIDIA, and overt influence over corporate America
- Trump’s intrusion into culture: dictating what books are read, what plays performed, rewarding cultural figures like Roger Clemens at a whim (04:45)
- Quote:
“I think many Americans wrongly believe there would be one clear unambiguous moment when we go from democracy to authoritarianism. Instead, this is exactly how it happens: A blurring here, a norm destroyed there, a presidential diktat unchallenged.” – Charlie Sykes quoting Graff’s essay (02:12)
Authoritarian Pageantry and Intimidation
- Cultural & Historical Overreach:
- Trump asserting control over arts, sports, and history as if he is an emperor (05:35)
- "Our culture, our history, our arts, our sports depend on the whims of this man and whether you are in his favor or not... I don't know what to call it other than authoritarianism.” – Garrett Graff (05:35)
- “I love the smell of deportations in the morning”:
- Trump posts meme evoking “Apocalypse Now” and threatens Chicago, with incendiary rhetoric and AI-generated imagery (06:37)
- Sykes challenges whether this is mere trolling or “boiling the frog” (06:37)
- Escalation to Open Threats and War Crimes:
- Trump boasts of blowing up a Venezuelan boat, with no due process and retroactive legal justifications (07:05)
- Rebrand of Department of Defense to “Department of War,” ignoring statutory processes (07:45)
- "There is no evidence across the first nine months of this administration that Congress feels that Congress is needed in Donald Trump’s Washington.” – Garrett Graff (09:27)
Armed Federal Presence and Occupation of Cities
- Occupation of D.C. and Beyond:
- Federal occupations in D.C. and threats to do the same in Chicago create fear and desertion among residents (12:08)
- “Federal occupations are being done to the residents of these cities and not on their behalf, which…is the hallmark of an authoritarian regime.” – Garrett Graff (12:16)
- Downtown D.C. is deserted; protests reflect public rejection of the occupation (12:55)
- Texas National Guard in Chicago:
- Sykes and Graff explore the legality and danger of sending Texas National Guard into Illinois against state officials’ objections (14:41)
- Graff points out, “When we have armed troops from one state invading another…that encompasses…what we call the Civil War.” (14:45)
- Academic exercise: “If we read this as a foreign correspondent, we’d see it for what it is: armed paramilitary units deployed against ‘separatist provinces.’” (15:30)
State-Corporate Coercion and Capitulation
- Business Leaders "Bending the Knee":
- Silicon Valley leaders, including Gates and Cook, publicly pledge fealty—echoing authoritarian models (17:56)
- Graff: “In an authoritarian structure, the right of their businesses…is dependent on the personal whim of the President…” (18:10)
- Gates Foundation aligns with government priorities, changing philanthropic giving to appease administration (19:24)
- Historical Analogies—Germany and Hungary:
- Graff draws technical and emotional parallels to Germany 1933 and Hungary 2015, invoking the chilling compliance of institutions and individuals with creeping fascism (20:05)
- “You realize you’re watching so many of the things we think of as bedrocks of American society just go along with it.” (22:39)
The Moral Collapse of Congress and Institutions
- Congress’s Erosion:
- Sykes and Graff lament Congress’ self-nullification, allowing Trump to ignore laws, budgets, and checks on executive power (24:00)
- “Congress doesn’t care whether Congress exists in the future…You would think at some point there’d be some self-preservation kick… but there isn’t.” – Garrett Graff (27:00)
- Founders never anticipated members of Congress turning themselves into “potted plants” (29:12)
- Nihilism and the GOP:
- Party shifts from intellectual or principled conservatism to power-based nihilism (30:36)
- “At their heart, there is no fundamental principle, there is no red line…” – Charlie Sykes (30:51)
- Moral Character as Last Guardrail:
- “At the end of the day, it turns out there is only one check and balance that actually matters, and that is good moral character.” – Garrett Graff (31:02)
- Vice President JD Vance’s open disdain for due process and international law exemplifies the normalization of dangerous precedent (31:17)
- “Imagine the Vice President of the United States saying… ‘I don’t give a shit about due process…’ in any other era.” (31:39)
The Courts: From Hope to Constitutional Crash
- Lower Courts vs. Supreme Court:
- Lower courts and appeals courts “have held up very well” (33:14)
- Supreme Court’s broad embrace of unchecked executive authority pushes the system from constitutional crisis to “constitutional crash” (34:16)
- Nixon’s “If the president does it, it’s not illegal” is now precedent (35:45)
- The Landmark Immunity Decision:
- The president’s effective immunity from legal constraint underpins Trump’s unchecked use of power today (36:30)
- "Between the unlimited pardon power and the immunity... we really are faced with this completely unaccountable, potentially lawless administration." – Charlie Sykes (36:45)
Democratic (In)action and The Question of Resistance
- Democratic Leadership’s Weakness:
- Graff decries congressional Democrats for being “unconscionably weak” and always waiting for a “perfect pitch to swing at” (37:44)
- NRA takes a stronger stand for civil liberties than many Democrats in recent moves (38:17)
- Government Shutdown as a Tactical Debate:
- Sykes and Graff weigh whether Democrats should help keep government running or embrace shutdowns as leverage
- Graff: “Friction matters—the only tactic…needs to be at every stage that friction matters. Delaying the worst actually does matter in this modern moment.” (41:01)
- “There is no deal to be made here… there is no agreed-upon framework we can actually trust Donald Trump to carry out.” – Garrett Graff (42:41)
Acknowledging Fascism by Name
- Naming the Regime:
- Sykes presses Graff on whether “fascism” is too strong a word (44:35)
- Graff insists the label fits:
- Masked agents kidnapping people, secret detentions, erosion of due process (45:18)
- “I don’t know what fascism looks like…other than masked, anonymous agents leaping out of unmarked cars, kidnapping people without due process, disappearing them…” (45:18)
- “If we were reading this about a foreign country, we’d see it for what it is.” (46:30)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Gradual Authoritarian Creep:
“Instead, this is exactly how it happens: A blurring here, a norm destroyed there, a presidential diktat unchallenged. And then you wake up one morning, our country is different, and today is different.”
— Garrett Graff (original essay, quoted by Sykes, 02:12) -
On Trump’s Cultural Control:
"That our culture, our history, our arts, our sports depend on the whims of this man… I don’t know what to call it other than authoritarianism."
— Garrett Graff (05:35) -
On Armed Federal Occupation:
“Federal occupations are being done to the residents… not on their behalf, which…is the hallmark of an authoritarian regime.”
— Garrett Graff (12:16) -
On Institutional Capitulation:
"One of the things that I am most astounded by... is that Congress doesn’t care whether Congress exists in the future."
— Garrett Graff (27:00) -
On The Last Remaining Guardrail:
"At the end of the day, it turns out there is only one check and balance that actually matters, and that is good moral character."
— Garrett Graff (31:02) -
On the Supreme Court:
"It’s not up to us to question what the President does. He’s the president, he can do what he wants."
— Garrett Graff, paraphrasing SCOTUS’s posture (35:20) -
On the Language of Fascism:
"Look at the behavior of ICE. I don’t know what fascism looks like on the streets…other than masked, anonymous agents leaping out of unmarked cars, kidnapping people without due process, disappearing them…"
— Garrett Graff (45:18)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 02:12: Sykes reads Graff's assertion that authoritarianism arrives gradually (original essay)
- 03:08: Graff details why August 2025 felt like a true tipping point
- 05:35: Graff explains cultural and societal subjugation to Trump’s will
- 06:37: Discussion of Trump’s “Apocalypse Now” meme and threats to Chicago
- 07:05: Analysis of illegal military actions and the Department of War renaming
- 12:16: Real-life impact of federal occupation on D.C. residents
- 14:45: Graff on deployment of Texas National Guard to Illinois – historical parallels to Civil War
- 18:10: How business leaders have become supplicants to presidential whim
- 20:05: Are we Germany 1933 or Hungary 2015? Parallels to historical fascism
- 27:00: Congress’ abdication of constitutional responsibility
- 31:02: “Good moral character” as the only remaining check
- 33:14: Mixed record of courts and the Supreme Court’s “constitutional crash”
- 36:30: Transformative effect of the presidential immunity ruling
- 37:44: Graff critiques Democrats’ ineffective opposition
- 41:01: Strategic debate: Should Democrats shut down government to create friction?
- 45:18: Graff’s direct identification of fascist tactics in current U.S. events
Tone and Final Thoughts
Throughout the episode, both host and guest maintain a tone of urgent realism, directness, and deep concern—interlaced with moments of dark humor and dismay. The discussion is intellectually rigorous yet accessible, drawing from history, law, personal anecdotes, and vivid analogies to expose the gravity of America’s political transformation.
Charlie Sykes closes with:
“We need to talk about it. We can't be in denial; the denial, the complacency has gotten us to where we are today…It is so important to continually remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones.” (47:21)
Summary at a Glance
- Main theme: The United States has quietly slid into a state that meets the historic definitions of fascism under the second Trump administration—via slow erosion of norms, culture war, paramilitary intimidation, government overreach, and incapacitated opposition.
- Key insights: The normalization of lawlessness; the moral and institutional collapse of Congress; cultural and corporate capitulation; the danger of “boiling frog” passivity.
- Memorable quotes: See above.
- Essential timestamped moments: See above.
Listeners looking for clarity on how democratic backsliding feels and unfolds in real time will find this episode urgent, vivid, and eye-opening.