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- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker 1
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Unknown Speaker 1
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- [02:24]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. I am joined by the legendary Garry Kasparov, of course, the former world chess champion and better known now as the founder and author of the Substack newsletter the Next Move, and the new host of the Atlantic's podcast Autocracy in America. Gary, thank you for coming back on the podcast.
- [02:47]
Garry Kasparov
Thank you for inviting me again.
- [02:50]
Charlie Sykes
So let's just talk about autocracy in America. I'm going to ask the basic question, are we there yet? And how will we know if we have become an autocracy? And I asked that question because is it possible to live in an autocracy and feel like life is going on as normal. Will we actually know it if it were to happen here?
- [03:14]
Garry Kasparov
There is no universal answer to this question because it depends very much on your historical genetics. Obviously, in Russia, the tolerance to authoritarianism is much higher than in America. But the problem with Americans, that there was no experience of leading through authoritarian rule. And that's why it's challenging to actually to understand how close we are. The answer to your question, we are on the path. Whether it's halfway 30%, 60%, I don't know. But the trend, the dynamics, the direction point at America walking away from American democracy, from American liberties, into something that is different. You're not coming close to Russia or, God forbid, North Korea or China, but you are definitely departing from the values that have been embedded in the Foundationist Republic 249 years ago. So the idea of my podcast, the Atokos in America, was to call it Educate American Public about the science, because it's all about your senses. Many people say, oh, big deal, yes, but Donald Trump, he keeps doing things that we may not like, but it's within his constitutional powers. So he still respects the court rulings. And the Congress is probably too passive. But the Republicans have majority. But it's not about. And that's very important thing. It's not about one element. You have to look at the big picture. Authoritarianism is trying you to concentrate on something that is, you know, is important, but not giving you the full vision. It's not, It's. It's. You basically should have, if not 360, but definitely 180. But they try to use the concert on certain things, and that's why you miss the, the big picture. So when you start adding one to another, Donald Trump first act as to pardon January 6th mutineers. Yeah. And U.S. congress is being totally impotent, basically stamping anything that Donald Trump sends to them. And by the way, Congress is the foundational element of American Democracy. It's Article 1. No, but it's Article 1 according to founding fathers. And if Congress is doing nothing, then of course, executive power becomes even more authoritarian or authoritative. You can say, yes, the answer to those who say, ah, all presidents, you know, from FDR onward, accumulated more and more executive powers. Yes, but the question is whether they were checks and balances, whether they respected the norms. And that's a big deal. Authoritarians always try to dilute the norms. And that's what Donald Trump has been doing perfectly, basically normalizing things. If we look at America today and just, you know, try to make projection, of course, start with Watergate. Nobody would notice. Watergate. Watergate happens every hour. It's not every day.
- [06:27]
Charlie Sykes
So, but even if you go to.
- [06:28]
Garry Kasparov
Clinton's era or to Bush or Obama, so all of a sudden, you know, we deal with, with things that were totally abnormal, many believe criminal 50 years ago, even 25 years ago, and now it's a, basically it's, it's a big yawn. So Trump, it's an anesthesiology. So they're planning to amputate parts of your body, but because of this very professional anesthesiology, so you don't feel it. And that's why it's very important for us to actually be, you know, to have our eyes wide open and to understand that if you look at the combination of factors, America is slipping away from the rock solid foundation of democracy.
- [07:13]
Charlie Sykes
You know, I was reading something that you wrote on your substack last week, and one of the thoughts, and this is the reason I asked you the question, you know, how will you know, what will that moment be? And one of the thoughts that I have is I will know that America is an autocracy. The moment that I am afraid, that I am afraid to write or say something, that's for me. And the piece that you wrote was about this pivot when Donald Trump was threatening the criminal prosecutions against former CIA director, you know, Jim Brennan and against FBI Director James Comey. And I thought you made an interesting point, is the point is not necessarily to jail them in order to suppress the free speech. It's to make their lives so miserable, to harass them. And so, you know, if we're looking at autocracy in terms of like this court ruling, that court ruling is, you know, is Comey in jail or not in jail? If these examples are held out there and people like me are sitting, going, you know what, I just, I don't want the hassle. I just got to keep my head down. Is that a tell? I mean, talk to me about just the use of fear as opposed to just. We often think of being manacled, being put in a jail cell. But your point, I think was no, actually, the most powerful weapon is internalized fear.
- [08:37]
Garry Kasparov
Absolutely. Fear is the most powerful weapon of any authoritarian leader. It's the foundation of totalitarian state. But 100 years ago in 20th century, the classical dictators like Stalin or Hitler, they had to terrorize the population. They have to execute people and send them to concentration camps in great numbers, in tens, hundreds of thousands, in millions, to instill this fear in the rest of the population today, you don't have to do that because of mass media, because all you have to do is just, you go against some big shots and you think, wow, FBI director, you know, is vulnerable to prosecution. CIA director. Maybe, as I said, maybe I have to pass. Maybe I have to be quiet. So that's, that's, that's a modern classic. And Donald Trump, maybe instinctively he has been doing it. And also it's the, when we look at the Donald Trump's inner circle, I think it's probably no longer as loyalty, it's more like a fealty. It's, it's, it's, you know, it's a mafia like structure because when people say no, but you, you, you're, you are, you know, exaggerating. And my question is based, my answer is, it's counter question, just for a moment. Do you believe that if push comes to shove, Pam Bundy and Kash Patel follow constitution or Donald Trump's orders? And typically people, they got confused and refuse to answer the question because we all know the answer. So fear is something that, you know, eats you from inside and you don't. It's very difficult to, it's unquantifiable. It's something that, it's like a virus that when you recognize it hits your body or your immune system might be too late.
- [10:48]
Charlie Sykes
So you mentioned how the Trump administration is like a mob boss, like a mafia state. And I think maybe this is something that we need to, to dive into a little bit more because, you know, Vladimir Putin is of course, an autocrat, but he's also, you know, been compared to a mafia state. You know, you've, you've described him that way. So is Vladimir Putin, and maybe this is too snarky a question, but is Vladimir Putin more like Joseph Stalin or more like a modern mob boss? And what are the distinctions there? I mean, I'm getting. Because the corruption is so fundamentally part of both Putin's regime and Trump's regime.
- [11:33]
Garry Kasparov
Yeah. I'm always cautious in making parallels in history and geography, but if we look at this triad, Putin, Stalin, Trump, I think Putin is close to Trump because Stalin's or Hitler or Mao Zedong. When you look at the old dictators, they say all dictators of the last century, they always had ideology as, as the core element. Ideology was the foundation. Yeah, Putin's ideology is, it's called fluid. Basically, he doesn't care about it. Putin's religion is money. He believes money offers you unlimited power. And money is, is the way to win any war. That's why he was so good in, in conducting hybrid wars. It's not just about sending your armies. And as we found out in Ukraine, Putin's armies were not as powerful as many thought. But yeah, he's still there and he has been doing much better. Not on the battlefield, but you know, in the clan operations. He's KGB after all. And buying support, buying not just his lobbyist, buying foreign leaders, you know, just we remember Gervard Schroeder, former chancellor on his payroll. But now we could see that in Europe, Prime Minister Orban or Prime Minister Fitz of Hungary and Slovakia, they also doing Putin's bidding. There's so many leaders not yet in power, but close. Like, you know, in Germany or in France or in Britain. They are, they are pro Putin, they are not shy to express the support for the way Putin has been handling Russian and international affairs. So that's what brings Putin and Trump together because both, I think believe that money is a key. Oh, Trump is more primitive, of course. Trump, Trump. For Trump, money is beginning at the end. Putin thinks money is the way to take revenge for the defeat of Russian empire called Soviet Union at the time in the World War three. It's a cold war and to go back to the golden days where might was right.
- [14:01]
Charlie Sykes
So the other thing that the authoritarians like Orban and Trump have done, that again may or may not be an innovation is this blending of public and private power. It is the use of not just the hammer, the cudgel of state power, but it's also co opting institutions of civil society, whether it would be law firms or major corporations or universities, and blending them together. And one of the things we've seen, I think in Donald Trump's seizure of cultural power has been this sort of the, you know, hitting them from both ends, the yin and yang. It's like, you know, going to a media company and saying, we want you to do X, Y and Z, otherwise I will sue you as a private individual and we will come after you as a government entity. There is that, that combination. So again, when we talk about autocracy and authoritarianism, it's not the exclusive use of government power, right? It's government power. But that, you know, all has the effect of being coercive on individual private citizens who become less and less powerful.
- [15:09]
Garry Kasparov
Actually, I would say here that, you know, it's this, it's, that's, it's still, you know, for me it can be, it can qualify as a use of governed power because in chess, we have a famous saying that the threat is more powerful than execution. He doesn't use power, but they know he can. And this is very important. You know, that's, that's, you know, art of a deal, call it. And Trump knows how to use power here and there, but to terrorize many others. Oh, I did it already. Now, if you don't behave, it can, you know, this casual that can just, you know, crack you or your head. So this is, it's, again, there are no rules. It's not, you know, that you can have the guide, you know, or it's just, oh, this is the, it's. This is what would be dictated as first and second. No, but one thing is very important is that the real dictatorship, when you would look at, just at the past, they never emerge. This is not about tanks in the streets. Oh, it could have happened. But very often, you know, even we look at Stalin and the Hitler is it always, you know, takes time. You know, just it's. And Putin is a classical example. It took time for Putin to accumulate more and more power using state institutions, terrorizing or buying civil society. So it's a combination factor. And Donald Trump is dealing with much more resilient society than Putin. So that's why I don't think he'll succeed. But this is the most dangerous attempt to undermine the foundational values of American republic. I think even just. It's even more dangerous. It's more challenging than the Civil War, because Civil War was tragedy, but it was not. It's get separation, but the union state as a union. So even the south, you know, we know that's the, the true reason for the war and, and the horrors of the slavery. But even south, you know, just stayed within the constitutional framework today. It's the first time where the, the concept of separation of powers have been openly challenged. Yes, Donald Trump has not yet denounced the court ruling, but he's in the office for seven months. Just let's wait. So clearly he is moving in this direction. And the attacks, unprecedented attacks on the judges. And also, this is the idea, oh, how can a judge stop the presidential agenda? And also the authoritarian rule, they're always very good in shifting or creating or changing all the time the narrative. So it's like the exterior of hands. Look, look, look at the heroes. You don't know, where is the car, where is the ball? So look, look, look, look at this. It's the old, you know, it's I move my hands and for instance, the big stories that you hear from maga and from maga's loudspeakers in the House or Senate. Oh, it's the. Trump had a mandate. And you know, he has to push this agenda because people, American people wanted him. Okay, I give you. They gave a mandate, but he received this mandate within the constitutional framework which he's trying to destroy now. So it's very important to stop them when they just try to play with this various elements and pretend that again, Donald Trump has basically when you start cleaning the field or just clearing the smoke. So the Donald Trump wants to act like a king.
- [19:09]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. So I guess your choice. So again, maybe finding some historical analogies here. What is the next move in dealing with what's happening right now? How do you resist this? And is there. And ultimately what I'm getting at is how do these autocracies fail in the end? Because right now it seems easier to talk about the failure of democracy, the failure of liberalism, the failure of constitutional order. But let's look ahead. So what is the next move to get us to the end of.
- [19:49]
Garry Kasparov
The.
- [19:49]
Charlie Sykes
Authoritarian threat in this country, if there ever will be an end to that threat?
- [19:54]
Garry Kasparov
So that's why it's very important for us to understand why we are going through this perilous time. And that's the whole idea of my podcast, Autocracy in America. The second season, there will be 12 episodes. And these episodes, they bring very different people as my guests because I believe that Donald Trump's phenomena is not just domestic. You have to understand the global trends. You also have to look for various things. It's not just politics, it's not just economy. You also have to look to the rise of AI. So that's why you hear from AI expert. You hear from a top military expert, Admiral McCraven. You hear from top pollster like Frank Lance, you should hear from human rights activists like Masjid. Again, understanding how the world is changing and what people learned just in of terms in their respective countries where democracy survived. So it's. You hear from foreign policy experts like John Bolton or George Friedman. So it's the. You hear from Europeans, from Baltics, from Ukrainians, from. So I think that we have to understand how come the Donald Trump rose to power and in 2016, we many thought it was anomaly, but no longer he stayed in power. He was pretty successful. And if not for Covid, he would most likely won his reelection beat. And then after two impeachments, after the disaster of January 6 and after all these criminal cases. So he as a phoenix, he was resurrected and came back and won again. That tells us that Donald Trump is not accidental. So the idea of my podcast to tell you guys recognize he was inevitable because something was wrong in the very core of our democracy. So we have to understand so what did go wrong? So what mistakes have been made? Because without the proper assessment, without, you know, very honest analysis of the reasons of this catastrophe, we will not be able to fight back. So I think that it's, it's number one thing we have to understand Trump was inevitable because we did many things wrong. And two is Trump is an existential threat. So many people still think that, oh, it's democracy can kill itself. No, no, no, no, no. Democracy is as good as our will to defend it. And, and so far a lot of people are not happy, but they think, oh, 2026 elections, it will be, of course it will go one way. Are you sure? Yeah, it's a, you know, this is, we have to understand that in American political system, okay, unless Elon Musk makes another miracle, you know, another stakes and Tesla and creates a surf party next day, but unlikely. So the choice will be between Republicans and Democrats. And unfortunately we live in, it's very, it's very sad period American history where the choice is not for, for, for the best, but for the lesser evil. 2016, 2020, 2024. And this choice that, you know, it doesn't, doesn't give me any confidence. Yes, we know that Republicans will have, have to, we have to answer many questions about this big beautiful bill and many other things, but it's not just about, about, about it. But people will look at Republicans as not good, but then they start looking at Democrats. And are you sure that, you know that by that time a new mayor of New York just it's unreconstructed, socialist and anti Semit will not be viewed as a face of Democratic party plus again, fear. We talked about it. Fear and many, many other elements of power that can be used openly or discreetly. And again, we don't know. So there might be many provocations. So this is Trump again question. Will Trump stop at short at anything if he believes it would threaten his power? My answer is no.
- [24:07]
Charlie Sykes
No. And I think that's something we need to keep in mind. And also, look, whatever happens in the election, I think we ought to recognize that even if the Democrats were to win in 2026, that a lot of damage has been done and can be done over the next two years. I mean, in terms of the institutions of a lot of things I want to ask. Yeah. So go ahead.
- [24:28]
Garry Kasparov
No, no, no, that's. I, yeah, yes, but it's this, it's The, I think 2026, if Democrat, if Republicans do not lose control of the House. Oh, the next two years could be disastrous because this is the key. The Congress must recover its voice. Must. Absolutely. So that's why it's the worst thing that Democrats can do now is talk about 2028. Forget about 2028. 28. 28 in calendar comes two years after 2026. And unless in 2026, you can erode Trump's power, legal power, because it's when people say Trump is doing many things illegally, but the problem is that president can do so many things legally or just, you know, coming very close, maybe just, you know, crossing the line, but then coming back. So that's a problem. The legal powers within president's hands if Congress is silent, are almost or if not unlimited. Completely unlimited.
- [25:22]
Charlie Sykes
No, this is a great point, and I know that you've also gotten caught up in all of this. I think that the, and I tried to argue this back in 2024, which was the prime directive was not to reelect Joe Biden. The prime directive was to keep Donald Trump out of power. And the Democrats needed to think that way. They need to think. And the way I put it is Democrats have to decide whether they really want to win elections, whether they really want to take power, or whether they want to scratch their ideological id. Because I know you've been caught up in some of these, these debates where you find out that that there, there's a large, very vocal group of Democrats who believe that, you know, let's not engage in introspection, let's not ask tough questions, let's not ask, what are we doing that lost us these elections? How did we get here? Because, I mean, I would think that this would be part of Democrats looking in the mirror and going, how is it we're not beating these guys? Why do we. They we think clowns as nut jobs, as existential threats to democracy, and yet we lose elections to these people. What is it that we have not done? What is it we need to do better? And I have to say I regret to tell you that you've discovered as well, there's a lot of resistance to that kind of discussion. And yet the stakes are so high.
- [26:43]
Garry Kasparov
I couldn't agree more. But let's be brutally honest, because again, back to chess. So the secret of my success, that was always brutally honest, evaluating my own games, recognizing mistakes I made, even if I won the game I always look back to see what kind of mistake or inaccuracy that I made in the game because I knew when you keep winning. So others who lost, they'll be looking at your moves with a microscope and very important that you find what they could find. So, and to be one move ahead next day. So here it's, it's, it's not about, you know, resting on your laurels and just, you know, being complacent. There were losses and what we can find in common between the loss in 2016 and 2024, I mean, again, let's be honest, Democrats wanted Donald Trump because in 2016, 2024, they believed Donald Trump was the only Republican they can beat. So Hillary Clinton had been preparing, has been preparing for Donald Trump. And Donald Trump received, some people said, over a billion of free advertising in liberal media because they liked the idea of Donald Trump. Donald Trump was so vulnerable. They had so much compromised material with him, and they just, they couldn't read the, the message from the voters. By the way, Frank Luntz, you know, explaining in the second episode of my podcast, he is, he's so, you know, just articulate, explaining that he saw it in 2014, 2015. But Democrats, 2016 made this mistake, Okay, I give them credit. They didn't, they didn't expect it. They underestimated Donald Trump. But to make the same mistake in 2024, I mean, it's, let me, again, let's be honest, why they push only one case, which is the lightest case against Donald Trump. Trump, because they didn't want him to be disqualified. They want him to stay and to be weak because that's the only man Biden could beat. And since 2021, now, many, many Democrats talk about it. I mean, Joe Biden showed signs of, let's say, being slow. I want to be diplomatic. But in 2022, they made decision to run him again. I mean, it's how on earth, you know, and then, you know, it's after they recognized, eventually they were forced to recognize that it's not going to work. Instead of trying to recover democracy with a small D, they just nominated without any public debate, a vice president, Kamala Harris, probably worst candidate. I believe that the only way for them to recover, because it's about credibility. Elections is about credibility. Donald Trump could be vulnerable, could be bad. But if you lost all the credibility, again, it's a choice. It's a lesser evil. And I thought, and I said it, I said it and I wrote about it, the only way for Democrats to Move forward was to have an open convention. That's how you could fight back.
- [29:52]
Charlie Sykes
In retrospect. No. I mean, look, I agree with you on Biden. I don't want to relitigate that. But I do think it is so important for any political party that wants to win. Whether you're a chess player, a football player, or a tennis player, you examine your game. And if you have had a spectacular fail, you need to be brutally introspective and honest about what went wrong and not find rationalizations. And I do think that there was a certain mentality that we don't need to deal with our difficult issues or find ways to appeal to voters. Because, look, Donald Trump is so horrible, there's no way that people will vote for him. So we didn't need to, you know, present ourselves as the agents of change. And you look back, since 2016, this country has been in turmoil. It was looking for something new. And Democrats gave them basically the same thing again and again and again. If they don't really come to grips with that, and I think that there is a process, they are doing that. Okay, so in the few minutes that we have left, I'm really anxious to get your take on what's happening. Donald Trump. Now, maybe this is a distraction. Who knows? But on Monday, Donald Trump seemed to strike a new tone in his relationship with Vladimir Putin and with Ukraine. We are now going to be selling weapons through NATO to Ukraine after having cut them off. Trump is doing his. I'm going to have secondary tariffs against Russia. I'm really unhappy with Vladimir Putin if they don't end the war in 50 days. So your sense of going forward, I want to like a somewhat longer view. Is Donald Trump pivoting on Putin and Ukraine or is this just going to. We look back on this as just a blip. What do you think?
- [31:45]
Garry Kasparov
No, he is changing. But again, he doesn't live in a vacuum. He understands that, you know, he has to satisfy all the elements of his coalition. And at this point, following the mug, a hard line on Russia and Ukraine could, you know, could risk him losing a lot of support. So I think it's pure calculation, cold blood calculation. And speaking about Donald Trump's statement, and it's all about action. And what is for Donald Trump, One is he naturally needs now to shift attention from domestic scandals, you think, from. From Epstein files to terrorists. That doesn't sound good. So he needs to show strengths. He already bombed around. He gained credibility. Doesn't seem he will. He. He's going to repeat it. So but he, he always needs, you know, kind of steroids. So that's to show that he is the matcher. He's in control now. Now, he said he would take on Putin. But let's again, let's analyze what he said. One is he's not sending weapons to Ukraine, he's selling weapons to Ukraine. I mean, it's a difference because selling means someone has to pay. And whether Europe has tens of billions of dollars to pay, I don't know. They will buy some weapons. Whether they can buy all weapons they need, we'll find out. So Donald Trump is doing business here. And as for sanctions, what did we hear if Putin doesn't do that in next 50 days? Now, not two weeks, 50 days, it's seven weeks, if my calculation is correct. Now, instead of giving Putin two weeks as he did all the time, he did how many two weeks excuses, now he's giving him seven weeks. So it's this, I tweeted, you know, that is when Lindsey Graham, I don't know, hundreds time bragged about this bill, you know, with all these horrible sanctions against Russia that had support of 85, 85 senators. I said, you can have 85 bullets in your gun, but if you don't have courage to pull the trigger, who cares? So it's a Donald Trump still, is still buying time for Putin. Oh, he is moving, but not nearly as far as has been promised. And also Donald Trump, if he really wants to hurt Putin. Back in 2023, 2024, the organization that chaired Renewed Democracy initiative, we ordered, we paid for a special review, legal review by top constitutional lawyers of this country, led by Larry Tribe. And it's massive report, 166 pages that was sent to Biden and it told Biden that President of the United States had, you had, you know, in his power so instruments to confiscate Russian money that under American control, frozen funds. Okay. Biden's initiative did move. Trump still has it. So it's Russia. Russian money in America is, is a tiny drop compared to what is in Europe. So it's roughly probably 7, 8 billion versus 190. But it's still money. And we heard rumors Trump would do that so far. Yeah. This is if you just, you know, divide, you know, so this is look at the common denominator at what's on top. So Donald Trump's big statements, you know, they're always, you know, divided by grace period for Putin. So there's always, you know, if Putin doesn't do that, what else? I mean, Putin keeps Shooting at people. Even with Kellogg in town, Russia has not stopped shelling Kyiv at night.
- [35:44]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. So the thing that was striking to me is that for, you know, 10 years, Donald Trump has ripped every possible world leader, insulted them in every way that he can. But he's never said anything negative about Vladimir Putin in the last couple of weeks. He seems to be changing the tone about Putin now. What was also striking about the first seven months of Trump's presidency is how willing Vladimir Putin was to humiliate Donald Trump. That, you know, get Donald Trump to out there thinking that they were such good friends, he was gonna do him a favor, and they would have a phone call, and Putin would then respond by some new atrocity, some new attack. Up until, like, two weeks ago, it felt like Trump was, like, the only guy not in on the joke that Putin was playing him. Something seems to have happened. Tell me, do or do you agree that now he's realizing, you know what, he's making fun of me. He's humiliating me. He's insulting me. Maybe he's not my friend, which is a new thing for Trump or not. What do you think?
- [36:50]
Garry Kasparov
The relations between Trump and Putin is still an enigma. So. And it is always. It always opens for speculations. And I'm not going to speculate here because I want to stay as. As much as we can on the solid ground of facts. The facts are, as you said, Donald Trump criticized everybody. I mean, from John McCain to Xi Jinping, you couldn't find a foreign leader or American politician, including his own party, that he has not either insulted or attacked. So it's. No one is safe. No one, with one exception. So it's a notable exception. So it's not that, oh, Trump respects dictators. Yes. But he could say something about Xi Jinping or about Erdogan or about Korean dictator. Yeah. Again, he's obviously always soft on dictators that on. On Democratic leaders. But no one, you know, could escape Trump's criticism except, like.
- [37:52]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, so I probably should have brought this up. Yeah.
- [37:54]
Garry Kasparov
I'm so glad. I think that at the end of the day, it's not about Trump recognizing something. I think Trump has an ear, and it depends who controls the information. That's the input that goes into the CEO. It seems now that people that could advise him on Putin, they. It's a different crowd. It's the noises that Trump keeps hearing. They've changed. And at the end of the day, everything Trump does, it's not about Putin, not about Russia, about Ukraine or about China. It's about Donald Trump. And I think now he feels that showing some kind of toughness against Putin could help him. But I still believe that he will not cross the last bridge, will not burn this last breach that will separate him from Putin completely.
- [38:50]
Charlie Sykes
So let's wrap up by going back to your new podcast, the Autocracy in America, and of course, your substack, the next move. As we're tracing this. I have to give you credit for calling attention to something that I had not focused on until I read your piece, which is the vast, vast expansion of Trump's new law enforcement entity under the big beautiful bill. And you compared, and we're talking about the $170 million. Billion, I'm sorry, $170 billion that will vastly expand the police powers of Trump's immigration enforcers. And you highlighted that and saying, you know, Trump now has this massive private army. Putin also had basically a private army. So can you just talk to me a little bit about where that fits into this? Because, you know, long after Trump is, even after Trump is gone, we're going to have the force of, you know, thousands and thousands of these law enforcement agencies. And this is again, something that's going to be a fact on the ground after 2026. So talk to me about the, in your mind, the significance of this gigantic new ICE that we're about to get.
- [40:07]
Garry Kasparov
My concern is that it will be on the ground during 2026. Yeah, and we, we, we, we know that Trump, Trump is not shy to challenge state authorities, which is quite amazing. Republicans who have been champions for state rights for generations, all of a sudden they are just flip flopped on this issue. And they believe that Donald Trump was in his rights to send federal agents, in many cases directly challenging state authorities, but he still has very limited manpower. Okay, simply man with a gun. It's not enough. This big beautiful bill will add not thousands, probably tens of thousands, 10, 15, 20,000 new agents. And it's not just 20,000 of new agents who will select them. So this is now with this loyalty tests and with the old people on top of these agencies that are just, you know, just are following Trump's order. Sheep asleep. So you may, we may end up with an army, armed individuals that are acting not within American, let's say, legal traditions. They can wear masks, they don't show the IDs. And again, these numbers are really small. Now these numbers will increase and in 2026 they'll be in place. Do you need this army to fight illegal immigrants? I don't think so. It's not worse of just building an army that is responding to president and his subordinates because American military still they bound by constitutional allegiance. The National Guard still has the governors. You have a police. It's also local. This is the first time where the United States president will have an army of his clothes that could be sent Again, they may not be used for questionable unconstitutional purposes, but they could be very well used for boosting Trump's agenda. And considering that Trump's inner circle has so many people that believe that January 6th was a genuine attempt to restore their rights, I think we should worry a lot. And, and I believe that Democrats did very little to talk about this component of the bill. Yes. I understand that it's a Medicare, Medicaid and many other things that could hurt American people. But I'm surprised that, you know, just speaking for four plus hours, the Democrat, the leader of Democrats in Jeffries. Yes, yes, just Jeffrey. So he didn't concentrate or at least give a prominent space for, for, for, for this issue because that's, yeah. That's one of the tools that Donald Trump will have at his disposal if or when he would decide it's time to use it to secure his stay in power.
- [43:23]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Because everything that we have seen so far, his prologue to what is about to happen with the funding and of course, this, the deployment of this new presidential army. Gary Kasparov, thank you so much for joining me. You can find Gary's work over on Substack right here on Substack, the Next move. And starting last Friday, the new Atlantic podcast called Autocracy in America. Gary, it's always a pleasure talking with you.
- [43:51]
Garry Kasparov
Yes, thank you very much. Always a pleasure, too. Thank you.
- [43:53]
Charlie Sykes
Thank you. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We do this because now more than ever, it is important to remind ourselves and our friends and family that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [44:20]
Derek Lassen
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Garry Kasparov
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Garry Kasparov
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Derek Lassen
I'm just helping us catch people's attention.
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Garry Kasparov
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Fine.
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Garry Kasparov
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Derek Lassen
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Charlie Sykes
Sure, you can post your job to.
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Derek Lassen
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Garry Kasparov
A job on ZipRecruiter get a quality.
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Derek Lassen
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Garry Kasparov
Right now, you can try ZipRecruiter for free.
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