Garry Kasparov: The Putinization of America

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Garry Kasparov: The Putinization of America"

To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Garry Kasparov, former World Chess Champion and Founder of the Renew Democracy Initiative
Release Date: May 25, 2025

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1. Introduction and Current Events

Charlie Sykes opens the episode by highlighting a tumultuous week in U.S. politics, marked by President Trump's aggressive stance on international students, tariffs on EU and major tech companies, controversial diplomacy with Qatar, financial corruption allegations, and the tragic shooting of Israeli embassy aides in Washington, D.C. These events set the stage for a conversation with Garry Kasparov about the shifting landscape of American democracy.

2. Modern Propaganda and Its Evolution

Kasparov references his influential December 2016 tweet, emphasizing that modern propaganda aims to "exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth" ([02:37]). He contrasts traditional Soviet propaganda with Putin's more sophisticated approach, which involves subtle misinformation mixed with legitimate content to create doubt and undermine trust in democratic institutions.

Notable Quote:
"The point of modern propaganda is not only to misinform or push an agenda, it is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth." ([02:37])

3. The Putinization of America

Kasparov elaborates on his concept of the "Putinization of America," distinguishing it from traditional fascism or authoritarianism. Unlike the overtly ideological dictatorship of the Soviet era, Putin's model relies on subtle power consolidation without a clear ideological framework, focusing instead on personal power and oligarchic control.

Notable Quote:
"Putin's dictatorship was built on a different principle... it's about power for power." ([07:15])

4. Similarities Between Trump and Putin

The discussion delves into the parallels between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Kasparov suggests that Trump admires Putin's ruthless consolidation of power and his ability to exploit weaknesses within democratic institutions. He highlights Trump's disregard for traditional political norms and his accumulation of executive power as alarming trends toward oligarchy.

Notable Quote:
"The moment you have one person or one group of people like Trump having money and making all the decisions that directly influence their well-being, that's dangerous." ([08:52])

5. The Rise of Oligarchy and Executive Power Abuse

Kasparov warns of the dangers posed by the merging of wealth and power in the hands of a few, leading to an oligarchic system where decision-making benefits a select few. He criticizes Trump's use of executive orders and tariffs as examples of governance by whim, which fosters corruption and undermines democratic accountability.

Notable Quote:
"Trump defied American political laws, he enjoys it and he keeps defying them... it's blatant corruption." ([15:42])

6. US Foreign Policy: Ukraine and Global Alignments

The conversation shifts to U.S. foreign policy, particularly the support for Ukraine against Russian aggression. Kasparov critiques the Biden administration's approach as insufficient, arguing that Ukraine must not just survive but win to ensure the destruction of Putin's ambitions. He warns of a potential new Yalta conference where global power is divided among Trump, Putin, and Xi Jinping.

Notable Quote:
"Ukraine must win. Russia must lose because the war in Ukraine, it's not a simple war for territories... It's a war for the very existence of the Ukrainian state." ([27:58])

7. The Annihilation of Truth and Preserving Democracy

Addressing the challenge of combating misinformation, Kasparov asserts that traditional fact-checking is insufficient in the current climate where nearly half the population distrusts fact-checkers. He advocates for minimizing the ability of those in power to disseminate fake narratives and stresses the importance of recognizing signs of oligarchy to rally against authoritarian tendencies.

Notable Quote:
"We have to minimize the ability of those in power to benefit directly or indirectly from their decisions to stop fake news." ([45:01])

8. Conclusions and Final Thoughts

Kasparov emphasizes the urgent need for Americans to recognize the existential threats posed by the consolidation of executive power and the erosion of democratic institutions. He calls for a massive coalition to reclaim congressional power by 2026 and urges individuals never to give in to authoritarian pressures, highlighting that resilience and unity are critical to preserving democracy.

Notable Quote:
"It's about an existential threat, and we have to never cave in. Because if you cave in, they will come back with a bigger stick and more aggressive demands." ([47:13])

Charlie Sykes concludes the episode by directing listeners to Kasparov's initiatives, reinforcing the message that "we are not the crazy ones" in resisting the tides of authoritarianism.

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Resources Mentioned:

• Renew Democracy Initiative
• The Next Move™

Note: This summary omits non-content sections such as advertisements, intros, and outros to focus solely on the substantive discussions between Charlie Sykes and Garry Kasparov.

Transcript

[Garry Kasparov]

Foreign.

[Charlie Sykes]

Welcome back to the Sunday edition of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. This was one of those weeks. The president of the United States tries to cancel all the international students from Harvard, threatening a 50% tariff on the EU, but not on Russia. Also going after specific companies, 25% tariff on Apple, maybe Samsung as well. Meanwhile, he does accept the plane, the flying palace in the sky from Qatar. And the same week in which he has dinner with people who shelled out several hundred million dollars to have it for his his meme coins the corruption in plain sight. And then also the president of the United States humiliates the president of South Africa. What's now become kind of a ritual in the Oval Office. You bring in a head of state and you find a way to beat up on him in case President Trump going all in on the white genocide argument. And of course, this was also the week in which two Israeli embassy aides were gunned down in Washington, D.C. and the U.S. congress moves ahead with a bill that will add $4 trillion to the national debt. So happy Sunday. Very special guest today. I want to welcome back Garry Kasparov, former world chess champion and chairman and founder the Renew Democracy initiative and a well known Russian dissident. Gary, thanks for coming back. I appreciate it.

[Garry Kasparov]

Thank you for having me, Charlie.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, I was reflecting, we were talking about it right before we started this, that it has been eight years since we first met in, in New York. I was doing a show for WNYC radio and we were talking about, and I'm sure you're probably tired of talking about this, your famous tweet from December 2016, when the first time that Donald Trump was elected and you wrote, and this has formed my approach to a lot of this for years. You wrote the point of modern propaganda is not only to misinform or push an agenda, it is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth. And I was thinking about that when I printed it out, that you wrote that back in 2016 in a kinder, gentler, more innocent time because it has gotten so much worse since then, hasn't it?

[Garry Kasparov]

Cancer spreads if you don't cut it off at early stage. And you may call cancer, you may call it virus, you may qualify it as a new approach. But I saw how this approach, replacing propaganda, the straightforward primitive Soviet type propaganda, nine o' clock news, front page of the newspaper with a very subtle KGB approach. It was Putin's decision and we should give him credit that early in the 21st century when he just, he was about. He was in the beginning of the process of building his oligarchy. And this is authoritarian and totalitarian state. He had to deal with the growing power of Internet and easy approach by the Soviet standards, the one that Chinese took and other authoritarian regimes. You build a wall, that's it, cut it not so creative. They came up with something far more subtle and far more poisonous. You can either kill it or you can flood it. And the idea was, okay, let's create new sites, constellation of new websites, you know, platforms. They will look reasonable. Even more, they will look very legit. They could even criticize Putin. Because the idea is that is, you are not going to sell people. They say the pure propaganda. 100% of your views, you can do 10% and wrap it off in 90% of real stories. But this 10%, this is little poisonous 10%. That's what it makes. And it did work in Russia. And then they liked it because they had all the power. We could have couple of websites, you know, this was our resources. They could do 100. And at the end of the day, people cannot go everywhere. So they search Internet, they find, oh, this site criticizing Putin. Okay, stay here. Absolutely. But then you know the crucial moment and these sites will do their job. So next step near abroad. So called near abroad. Former Soviet republics were with a big chunk of Russian speaking population. Same approach worked perfectly. Then of course they moved further west so to, to Eastern European countries, even Germany. And it was logical. Absolutely. I predicted it. They would end up in the United States. And to our horror, this approach also did work. So that's why I called Putin merchant of doubt. He discovered the doubt. Spreading doubts is far more effective than trying to convince people of something. They call us corrupt. Yeah, we're corrupt. Everybody's corrupt. They call us, you know, undemocratic. Stealing elections. Everybody's stealing elections. And somehow you gain credibility because, you know, just it's so depreciating. So but at the same time it's, it was a very effective campaign undermining the values of the free world. It's kind of whatsappa ism. Everything's wrong. Why are you talking about the rules? And Donald Trump was very much, you know, the product of this what's about big deal. So everybody takes place. So the fact is that if you look at President Obama or of course President Biden, you can find many wrongdoings. But the way Donald Trump has been exploiting this whatsaba ism, it just, it's, I mean I'm sure always make made and still makes Putin.

[Charlie Sykes]

LAUGHTER okay, so that's a perfect segue because you gave a speech very recently at the Heroes of Democracy Gala that was sponsored by your organization, and you said the last thing you ever want to hear a Russian dissident say about your country's democracy is, I told you so. Well, I told you so. And then you said, I come from a country where the language of enemies on the inside was commonplace. I come from a country where the regime privatized the levers of power so that authority was not concentrated in a body of law, but with one man surrounded by sycophants. And now it is here, the Putinization of America. So that's what I wanted to talk to you about, because we've been throwing around lots of words. You know, is it fascism, is it authoritarianism, is it autocracy? But you've described it as the Putinization of America. So, Gary, talk to me about that. What do you mean? And what do you see that's happening right now in Trump 2.0 that made you talk about the Putinization of America?

[Garry Kasparov]

Yeah, I use the term Putinization in purpose because simply calling it fascist dictatorship is not the same. And let's remember, I had an experience of growing up in the Soviet Union, so born and raised on the other side of the Iron Curtain. So I experienced dictatorship, old fashioned, hardcore ideological dictatorship. Again, part of the newspaper. There's only one truce, one step left, one step right. You're just out of order, in trouble. So Putin's dictatorship was built on a different principle, as I described. Now it's more subtle because he's not trying to convince you about just this, this. That's only one way of looking at things. But of course, it ended up with the same system where all the power is in hands on one man. But the difference is, even today, when you look at Putin or say Brezhnev, in the Soviet Union, Putin concentrates all the power, but this power has no ideological background. So Putin's, you may say it's Russian Empire, but it's more like power for power. And Putin's origin was oligarchy. His first interviews, when he was first appointed by Yeltsin as heir apparent, acting Prime Minister, and then became president in 2000, he talked about, you know, his dream of being an oligarch. So in Putin's mind, power and money, they're connected. Doesn't sound familiar.

[Charlie Sykes]

It sounds very familiar.

[Garry Kasparov]

Exactly. So Putin's, Putin's dictatorship was not built overnight. And by the way, this is also very important to remember. I Think many people in the free world who grew up, you know, just it's in atmosphere of freedom, everything is for granted. They always have this like it's simple vision. Democracy can be overthrown by tanks on the street. Oh, because this is, it's just overnight a coup, military. No, no, no. It could, it could be step by step, it could be very slow. It doesn't have to be something dramatic. It could be, in one law and a full stop in another law. So it of course it accelerates, but it always takes time. Even when you look at Nazi Germany, it took some time. In Putin's Russia it took a little longer. But it's about the trend, it's about not missing the moment when you enter one way street. And we learned it in Russia. So Russia still looked not democratic. But a lot of people didn't want to hear what I was shouting or my old friend and Ali political ally, late Boris Nemtsov, the former deputy Prime Minister who was, you know, one of the most vocal critics of Putin, shot by Putin's henchmen in the middle of Moscow ten years ago. So when we shouted that Putin's Russia was heading the wrong direction, nobody wanted to listen because Putin played a role of the kind of manageable democracy and he was a part of G8, by the way. Trump also now expressed concerns of Russia being kicked out of G8. That was very important for Putin to be surrounded by Bush, Bush 43, Merkel, Chirac, all the leaders of the free world. So he always knew how to move forward gradually by on one side reducing Russian freedoms, constraining more power, but at the same time strengthening his position, position abroad. And it's always power and money. Money was a key element and that's what people here just don't recognize. You can't call a rich man oligarch, just by definition. That's why I argue Rockefeller was not an oligarch. Carnegie was not an oligarch. Zuckerberg is not an oligarch. Even Bezos, you know, like them or not, but they have a lot of money. Of course they can buy influence. But buying influence is not oligarchy. Buying influence means that you look for, you know, for some, you know, competitive advantages, but he doesn't care. I mean, it's just Rockefeller didn't care. Republican, Democrat Bezos also doesn't care. Oligarchy is where the money and power is concentrated in one package. So this. So here in America we are getting very close to the Putin's model, where the decisions made by certain individual they are directly, you know, benefit him or his inner circle. So this, the, the, the, the, the line that is dividing money and power has been erased. I'm not arguing that, you know, just, it's, that's the, it's, it's highly moral or just for rich people to buy influence, but there's still this one layer. There's still one layer and it creates some kind of competition because you can go to one side, another side. But the moment you have one person or one group of people like Trump Musk having money and making all the decisions that directly influence their well being, that's dangerous. Because the moment they have this kind of power, the only thing that remains to be done to make sure that this power will not be challenged democratically. That's the next step, next stage. And that's why I'm saying, forget about 2028, 2026. Midterm election is the final test for the resilience of American democracy against outright oligarchy.

[Charlie Sykes]

So what is it about, I mean, we've talked about this endlessly, but what is it about Vladimir Putin that fascinates Donald Trump? There's a connection between them. Do you have a theory about it? I mean, it's not just that until you tell me if you disagree. It's not just that Trump admires, likes Vladimir Putin. He really wants to be like him. He does seem to be modeling himself on it. What is the nexus there, do you think?

[Garry Kasparov]

Look, we can speculate about some hidden facts, and I'm not here to surprise your audience with some revelations, but as somebody who grew up in the Soviet Union, I would be very surprised if I to learn that in 1987, an American flamboyant millionaire visiting Soviet Union with his Czech wife was not a target of KGB recruiting activities. Whether they succeeded or not, I don't know. So, but naturally they tried. Trump was an ideal, just, it's like from a book, you know, just, it's, you know, you tick every box. You know, these money, real estate, casino women and how many bankruptcies. And some of them were just, you know, quite painful. And it's always, you know, just Trump always, you know, recovered. You know, it's almost like a mystery, like, like a phoenix, you know, just, it's out of ashes again. It's all, you know, consequential. It's all coincidences. I, I used to say that I believe in coincidences. I also believe in kgb. But I think the most important thing is that what you said, he loves Putin because he wants to be Putin this is the right that's in Trump's blood. Whatever connection KGB had or not, it's Trump's nature. So Putin is a role model. It's the way around the country. That's what Trump wants to.

[Charlie Sykes]

What is it he most like? Is it the naked power? Is it the. I mean, because what's really interesting is that Trump clearly despises fellow Democratic leaders and, and there is something about the way that Putin carries himself, the way that he has imposed his power on the nation, the way he has surrounded himself with the sycophants, and that Donald Trump clearly wants to be like that. And I think this is really kind of a crucial point because when you try to see Donald Trump through an ideological lens, none of it makes sense because he's so inconsistent. If you try to just see him as just sort of a rich narcissist, that doesn't really explain him. But if you see him through this lens of wanting to be Vladimir Putin and that what's happening to us now is the Putinization of America, suddenly things start to click together, don't they? It starts to make sense.

[Garry Kasparov]

Absolutely, absolutely. It's, it's, it's Putin invincibility. So it's just as he can do this and that, so he can violate all the laws, you know, this. Oh, how many times were. Putin would not do that. He did. And it just, the cycles kept repeated. So with Donald Trump. No, no, no, it would definitely topple him. Uh huh. So we have been listening to the same song, you know, for nearly 10 years now. So no American public would not take it. I think. Trump laughs. You know, this is the bigger exception because Trump defied American political laws, he enjoyed it and he keeps defying them. I think it just hits somehow. I think he's just looking. What, what else? I can not do basically anything. So it's. You couldn't imagine this more blatant corruption. Oh, I can just have my own coin and I can just sell openly seats at my table and nothing happens. I can receive a plane, you know, just a flying palace from a sponsor of terrorism. And 10 years ago, I blasted Hillary Clinton for receiving, officially receiving money to her foundation. Again, I don't approve it, but I think it was a bad taste. I don't know whether it's corruption or not, but Trump said it. Now I can do it, I can reverse whatever I do and nothing happens. That's what makes Trump, I think, envy of Putin. And maybe it's a competition also. He knows Putin built enormous wealth. I don't know whether it's now, but at one point he definitely was the wealthiest man on the planet because again, I don't know today, but at one point he controlled an insane amount, over $1 trillion. Again, it's not a direct control because it's, I don't know, his personal fortune still probably a couple hundred billions. But you consider, you know, as a part of portfolio Russian budget, all the funds, the money of the oligarchs that just, you know, that were indirectly controlled by Putin. He told him an insane amount of money. I think Trump also is probably now dreaming. Why not to become the richest man on the planet. Who the hell is Elon Musk? You know? Yes, I'm Donald Trump. So it's, he's playing the game and Putin is a role model.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, there's also the, the element of fear. You know, I remember, I thought was one of the decisive moments in the development of our understanding of Donald Trump when, when he was asked, I think it was by Bill O'Reilly, you know, about his admiration for Vladimir Putin. And O'Reilly said, well, you know, he's a killer. He murders people. And Trump didn't blink. He said, well, we murder a lot of people. You know, we kill a lot of people here, too. Donald Trump likes the idea that people are afraid of him, that he will retaliate, that he will destroy you if you oppose him. And this is, again, now, I'm not saying that we've never had people who overreached in American history, but this really is a departure from the American culture where people are, you know, people are afraid of their government. They are afraid of the man at the top. They're afraid of saying anything. They're afraid of taking a stand against him because they are afraid that he will use the levers of power, including the criminal justice system, to come after them and destroy them. And again, I'm not so naive as to think that this was never abused in the past. We had Richard Nixon, but it all seems really pale in comparison to what we have now. Coming back to the Putinization of America, all power concentrated in one person surrounded by sycophants, with much of society, civil society, terrified, afraid to take him on.

[Garry Kasparov]

Yes, it's very sad to see that even here in America. And of course, America's democratic foundation is not compatible to Russia. So Russia's democracy was very feeble, with no long tradition, with no serious roots, you know, of democratic institutions and municipal self rule and other key elements of democracy in America. Okay. We have nearly 250 years of official institutions and probably another 150 years of building these traditions that also had deep roots in British or just, you know, in Dutch Republican customs. So, and it's, it's for many people like me, dissidents, you know, that, that had experience back, you know, back in our home countries to see that the major law firms, top corporations, it's the, it's richest individuals in this country, they prefer to, to give in. Okay, okay, Mr. Trump. Mr. President. Okay, you have it. So let us know, let us go. So we, we, of course, you know, understand, but they are just not just seeding some territory. It's, this is. They convince him that he could go after anybody, right? And that's also very important. Putin, Putin had great intuition, you know, when and how to strike. In 2003, he made a very important decision. By that time, we already destroyed independent television. So he already had the second Chechen war. So he was really concentrating power. But then he went after the richest man in Russia, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the largest oil company. It was a big gamble. If other oligarchs would support Khodorkovsky, Putin could be overthrown. But he could smell that is, this, is, this is the right moment. Because all others wanted is to make a deal and they didn't want to have an open accounting system like Khodorkovsky. They didn't want to merge with the free world companies, you know, like Khodorkovsky planned, you know, merger of ucos with Exxon or Chevron. They wanted to do this as the, you know, a background deal with the state. So to negotiate, you know, and not to pay taxes, but to be part of this, you know, kind of semi criminal, quasi criminal system. So Trump also has this instinct. So I think it's just, he, it's, it's animal instinct. He smells like the, the predators, they smell blood. Tom smells weakness. Then look what he did in 2016, destroying Republican, Republican field. I mean, look, it's you. I don't, I'm sure whether some, some people probably make tons of money by betting on Trump early. But what would be the Trump's, you know, chances against Rubio, Cruz, Jeb Bush? He could smell weakness. And the moment you show this weakness, but that's Putin, that's criminal. So that's a criminal instinct.

[Charlie Sykes]

But that is also Donald Trump, for all of his many, many weaknesses, he does have that, he does have that reptilian instinct to go after, to recognize, to look at somebody like a Jeff Bezos. And other people would say, well, he's insulated by his billions of dollars. He realized that the richer you are, the more fearful you are of losing it. But like you, I was. Of all the things that have happened, watching the big law firms cave in, watching the big news media entities cave in, watching the universities at least initially cave in, this was, this was surprising and it did embolden him to go after. And I think, I mean, have you been give me your sense of all this because you've watched this in the past. The. You're obviously right when you say that we have all of this long tradition and all these institutions, and yet, you know, that first hundred days felt like we were having this crash course and how fragile all of that was. And I was. What was your reaction to the speed with which civil society, not just the Republican Party, but civil society was in fact going along with a lot of the things that Trump was doing.

[Garry Kasparov]

I'm not surprised by the speed because unlike the first term, Trump entered the oval office the second time with a program, you know, project turned 25. You know, it was something that, you know, empowered him. So they tried to play by, by their books and, and I think those who were behind the project realized that to smash the resistance of democratic institutions, you have to be fast. It's like a blitzkrieg because otherwise, you know, the society would be, would, you know, recover from initial shock and start building, you know, the walls. So that's why the state is a lightning speed. That's a part of the strategy. And only now we could see that resistance being built. But Trump will not stop because for him, it's just win or lose. There is no compromise with Trump again, that's going back. Cancer must be eradicated. If you don't cut it off at early stage, it spreads out, period. So that's why Trump's instincts and Trump's administration called philosophy is to take as much space as they can. Any weakness of the civil society, any weakness of our democratic institutions will be exploited. And as long as they control the key institutes like Congress, Senate, in mostly Supreme Court, they will not stop. So that's why I always return to the same point. The taking away one of the levers of power, namely Congress in 2026 is crucial. You can't let them use levers of power against you for too long because eventually they make them irrelevant. And that's a part of this musk campaign must may go. But the idea is still the same. You have to start creating parallel institutions. You have to take as much power as you can from the entities that we Even indirectly control to the private institutions that we have no control at all. So that's another sign of oligarchy. And you clearly see how much money now is just being siphoned into the systems that under direct or indirect control of Trump, Trump's family and Trump's cronies.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, no, he's creating a vast infrastructure. So let's talk about where we're at here. And going back to your remarks at the Heroes of Democracy Gala, you said, show me who your friends are and I will tell you who you are. The U.S. speaking of things that were shocking, the U.S. now votes with Russia and North Korea right down 42nd street at the United Nations. The U.S. is downright chummy with dictators in Moscow and Beijing and hostile to democratic leaders from Ukraine, the European Union and Canada. That is, unless the administration is making an argument to annex Greenland. If that's the case, they'll readily talk about how Greenland supposedly needs American protection from Russia and China and package it all in a made for Twitter propaganda campaign and kind of compared it to Orwell. So, you know, among the things that were stunning was watching the United States change sides in the Cold War in the abandonment of Ukraine. So let's talk about that. You were quite critical of the previous administration, that the Biden folks were very supportive of Ukraine, but you accused them of dithering. So give me your sense of where, where is Ukraine and Europe and the United States? What is the state right now, state of play there?

[Garry Kasparov]

First, you know, I, I have to state that I, my criticism was always bipartisan or more likely non partisan. I'm, I have an impeccable record on, you know, on, on writing mostly and many interviews criticizing six consecutive U.S. presidents starting from Bush 41, three Democrats, three Republicans. And yes, I was very critical of Biden administration because I think as you said, there were these dithering. It's the Biden's philosophy was let's help Ukraine survive. And it just was not a good solution.

[Charlie Sykes]

Survive but not win.

[Garry Kasparov]

Ukraine must win. Russia must lose because the war in Ukraine, it's not a simple war for territories as Donald Trump and some of his sycophants trying to present. This is the war for very existence of Ukrainian state. And I'm not telling you just it's because I want to just scare the audiences. Vladimir Putin has been saying was his goal. It is his goal. It will remain his goal, according to him and his propaganda, to destroy Ukrainian statehood, to assimilate Ukrainian nation into, into Russia, amalgamate and use these resources to continue his assault against the free world. Vladimir Putin is at war with the free world. And by the way, America as well. America is far away. But it's, it's a war that Putin is conducting like, like a holy war, because in his book, the World War three already did take place. It was a cold war that Soviet Union, Soviet Russia lost. Now, as a successor of Russian empire and Soviet Union, he's carrying the holy force, world war. And that's, you know, that's the war that in his mind has to change the balance of power in the world and also the rules of the game. It's no more this nonsense, you know, treaties, consensus, negotiations, might is right. That's what Putin believes is the only way to rule the world. And he has Donald Trump, who we all understand, you know, shares the same belief. The way Trump has been treating his allies. Again, it's all about, oh, look, you know, we are here, Moscow, Beijing. That's what I call Kissinger triangle. And unfortunately, Biden administration missed a great moment. It was a great opportunity to give Ukraine enough weapon and political backing to destroy, to destroy Putin's war machine. But now we're dealing with a threat of a different magnitude because Donald Trump, if he can overcome, because even, he said, even Republican Senate may not buy, but if he has a chance to push this agenda, we'll end up with another new Yalta with Trump, Putin and Xi Jinping dividing the world. Maybe they'll take Germany nearby. So just to attempt without. Right. So speak. But otherwise they don't need anybody. It's about big guys deciding for smaller countries.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think that that is the victim, that they would carve up these spheres of influence. But on the other hand, there's something about that we were talking about the Putinization. But does Donald Trump fully understand Vladimir Putin's motivation here? Because he appears to be. Well, first of all, he promised he was going to end the war. In the first 24 hours, he seemed to be under the impression that he was just going to call up Vladimir Putin and say, vlad, do me a, you know, do me a solid, do me a favor here. Could you, could you end the war? Putin is in some ways kind of humiliating and embarrassing Trump, isn't he? Because. And he's clearly playing him. So there's, there's, there's a disconnect there that, that Donald Trump thought he had more clout with Putin than in fact he does, correct?

[Garry Kasparov]

Yes. But also there's the historical disconnect. Vladimir Putin embodies the. Not decades, centuries of Russian imperial Tradition. So it's somehow, it's the. Putin generates the worst traits of Russian history of thousand years, starting with the cruelty and militarization of Golden Horde and Byzantium. Messianic view. So there's Moscow, the Sodom, and there'll be no force one. It's, it's all power, all powerful tsars. And of course the, the Soviet period was a kgb. So plus you know, the kind of a criminal nature of, of the, of the Soviet regime that it's, it's very much, it's in his blood. So Putin is organic for Russian tradition. Trump is not. We can't say that Trump embodies any American tradition. So that's a difference that we have, we have to recognize. I still find it's hard to believe that Donald Trump took control of American political system, being so un American by almost every measurement that you can find in the political scales.

[Charlie Sykes]

So what do you mean by that? Because I agree with you. It is such a break with American history, with American norms. How do you explain Donald Trump's complete control of the American political system? That was so unexpected. I mean, going back to when you and I first met back in 2017, he had won. We thought it was kind of maybe a blip, it was an aberration in American politics. We could never have imagined the kind of dominance he would have over American politics, American institutions, in American culture. How do we explain that? Is that more about Donald Trump or is it about some pre existing weakness in the American system?

[Garry Kasparov]

Both. Yeah. Trump needs pre existing weakness as a predator to jump on it and to exploit this weakness. And I think he could sense back in 2015 that American society, or at least good chunk of American society, especially on the Republican side, has changed. America was always about the future. I mean, the way we saw America, those who were born in the Soviet Union and in the unfree world, beacon of hope, garden of freedom, and the country that always looked into the future, the idea that our kids, you know, will inherit a better country and they will build something more for their kids. So it has changed today. You look at the polls, many Americans believe, I think 2 to 1, that they have a better life than their parents. But the same two to one believe that their kids will have, you know, just less that they do have today. America is no longer by the future. And I think there's growing anger, anger that somebody stole this future from you. And that's, you know, it's. Again, we're not here to spread the blame, but I think that Donald Trump is very Much the product of Obama and Biden, of the policies that created conditions where Donald Trump could speculate on these weaknesses, on these frustrations. Unfortunately, it's a cycle in history that you can see just in the last 150 years in developed countries, in democracies that at one point the success of free market, of capitalism creates more wealth, but also social disparity, social inequality. So that creates very powerful call from the left. So this is for social justice, for fair distribution of wealth. And at one point the powerful push from the left reaches the crossroads. Either it becomes part of political system like in Great Britain or in America and it's a somehow two party system just moving to the left right, but trying to balance or it becomes so powerful it destroys the system as in the Soviet Union or the threat it created in Germany during Weimar Republic. And then of course you have opposite sides gaining power, gaining momentum. So you have rise of the, of the far right that is not only opposing left but also attracting many people in the middle that are scared by the very powerful leftist movement. So just in America again it's all parallels are questionable. I don't want just people to think that I'm just trying to compare it to Germany. But MAGA beat woke because historically and it's something I can just, I can assure you as somebody who studied history, MAGA typically and again you could look for other places. It's twice the size of Vogue, So let's say 30 to 15%. It's not just America, it's 2512, but it's not a majority. But people in the middle, they can easily shift to MAGA side. And again MAGA is a figure of speech generally described this process. And the only way to beat MAGA is to denounce the far left policies that created fertile ground for these conditions to be for MAGA appeal to become.

[Charlie Sykes]

Trump sounds like he's adopting some, what we used to think of as far left positions. And a lot of his attacks on corporations. He sounds like Bernie Sanders. So are we actually dealing with right left issues anymore?

[Garry Kasparov]

None of this that's. He already gained power. They said that's it's the, it's, it's because what's happened is that it's not just MAGA now. We had virtually, you know, somebody who, who speaks for maga. So it's already a cult, it's already, you know, it's a cult, it's dictatorship. But this is great chunk of population that totally depends on him because he speaks the truth. So it's virtually impossible to talk to many people in America and trying to convince them that Donald Trump changed his position. Yeah, he did, because, because it didn't, you know, work out because the deep state prevented him. So it's. So with this kind of power, we live through this, with this kind of power, he can start implementing other policies again. It will backfire. America, America is not Russia. It's not Weimar Germany. But the fact is that we have, we seen that, we see these parallels. That's already, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's frightening. And again, it's, this is a lot of people here, they never thought that they would have to take risk. So when I just see now people just running for cover. I understand, guys. You know, it was always nice, you know, just to be for racial justice three, four years ago, because that's, you know, there was no risk. So you are here and you could be critical of American past, you know, talking about, you know, these sins of slavery. And now you have to fight somebody with power and who is ruthless. And all of a sudden, the same people that were just, you know, just beating the war drums and defending as they fought the freedom and the justice, all of a sudden they run away. So it's right in the middle.

[Charlie Sykes]

We're fighting well, and yeah, the complacency was blown up. So let's just talk about some of these policies, like doing with the, with tariffs. What's extraordinary about our system, and I think came as a big surprise to a lot of people, is that one man, the President, United States, could unilaterally impose hundreds of billions of dollars in new taxes, you know, going after the eu, going after Apple. But part of it is, is that it's, it's government by whim. And so with all of this power that he has, he can really make the decision through fear and favor. If you kiss his ring, he will give you a break. If you antagonize him or you don't do what he wants, he can punish you. The potential, it's not just an abuse of power and a threat to democracy or a threat to the economy. It really is also an engine of corruption, isn't it? I mean, to have those kinds of strings that he controls, which is really kind of unprecedented because I, you know, I consider myself knowledgeable. I would have assumed that it would require some sort of congressional action to be able to impose these taxes. So we Americans are finding out a lot of things that I think we were able to ignore earlier, including the tariffs. So give me Your sense about why he's decided to start the, start the trade war again. He looked like he had bailed out. He backed off, he blinked with China, Stock market came back. And yet on Friday, there he is attacking American companies, attacking the Europeans. Stock market's about to tank. Bond markets are freaking out. What do you think's happening?

[Garry Kasparov]

I guess when the market goes up and down, someone can make money.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Garry Kasparov]

Yeah. Especially if you know in advance which way it goes. Yeah. So it's just, it's hard not to.

[Charlie Sykes]

Be cynical about that.

[Garry Kasparov]

Yeah. So it's the. But I think that Donald Trump, I mean, I don't want to say that he was inevitable, but somehow it's an ultimate test for the resilience of American democracy. And just to test the institutions, I've been writing about it back in 2016, 2017, that Americans soon would discover, I wrote them that many of the traditional institutions that they rely upon as guardians of democracy, they are very much based not on the codified laws, but on traditions. Nobody did it before. It doesn't work with Trump. So it's a moment for Americans to actually find a way to adjust democracy so to build something more resilient, of course, on the foundation of the values that have been enrolled by the Founding Fathers, but something that will resist this kind of executive outreach. Because we saw, well, I mean, for a long time, maybe it starts with afdr. This is the, it's executive office accumulating more and more power.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Garry Kasparov]

And Donald Trump, you know, just inherited enormous amount of power, Enormous amount of power. So. And decided that, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, why not, why not to use it? So there are no roadblocks. So nobody did it before. It's not an argument, it's not an argument that is going to stop him. The growing power of executive office. So it's created this disbalance, but again, it's this. Everybody before Trump was shy to use it. Now we saw abuses. I mean, let's go back to Nixon, but I was serious. Watergate is happening every hour now.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, she does feel that way.

[Garry Kasparov]

It's not even mosquito bite by Trump standards. Took time. So we saw just, it's the basically two parallel processes. One is more powerful presidents and also less accountability. Let's say that Bill Clinton was not also the perfect example of how presidential power can be used and let's say behavior in the Oval Office.

[Charlie Sykes]

So, yeah, it's simple compared to this.

[Garry Kasparov]

Less critical of Bush, but Obama definitely just you know, pushed through. And, and of course, Biden's Biden administration also is to blame for using some of these executive powers. There's nothing close to Donald Trump, but this, it was a process. And Donald Trump, he's here. It's all the levels of power, presidential power, have been executive orders handed, handed over to him. So he demonstrates that the system that has been designed, not designed, the system that has emerged after nearly 100 years of all these maneuvering in D.C. so offers President unlimited opportunities to benefit directly without being responsible, judicially responsible.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, and I think in part it was because, and people looked the other way as the power consolidated in the executive because the assumption was, well, you know, no one's going to abuse it that way. And you're right. So let me ask you one last question and sort of goes back to our original, you know, your original point about truth and the annihilation of truth. You, you said in your remarks recently that the truth is not going to be a break here. This is not a battle that's going to be won by tit for tat fact checking. Almost half of this country does not trust the fact checkers anyway. And sometimes it's hard to blame them. After all, if it were politically convenient, some liberal media pundits would tell you that I don't have a Russian accent, just a childhood stutter. I think I know what you're getting at there. But if we can't fact check the lies, what is the answer? How do we get through this? How do we preserve what we call democracy?

[Garry Kasparov]

I think we have to minimize the ability of those in power to benefit directly or indirectly from their decisions to stop fake news. Forget it. It's just every data tells you that it's roughly 70, 30 split the false narratives, they always win 70, 30, roughly. Because people tend just to, to follow something sensational, something here. It's, it's human nature. So we know it will get worse, by the way, with AI, with impersification and with ability to manipulate the data, it, it will get worse. So it's about minimizing the, the potential damage that could be made by those in power. Again, this is, it's, it's very important that the ability to feed us with fake narratives will not be in the hands of those who are trying to use the power to advance their interests, not American interest. And also this where I think experience, my experience or my fellow dissidents could be useful, is there are unmistakable signs. For instance, the moment I hear, oh, these judges, they are standing on the way of our president's most comprehensive agenda. The moment you hear that someone is complaining about a judicial system standing on the way of executive agenda, that's Putinization. That's. So let's, you know, let's have a kind of vocabulary. So this just for you to. Just to recognize. It's like a guide. So the guide to oligarchy. And I couldn't, as I have trained here, it's both Soviet experience, but especially, you know, experience in Putin's Russia. And I could see these signs. Signs, like signs on the wall with capital letters. And if we recognize it and if we, you know, rally together and just have a big tent, big coalition to take at least one level of power, Congress, from Trump in 2026, and actually before we can start influencing some Republicans there, because it's only three. You need three. Three people to shift sides.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Garry Kasparov]

Yeah. So. But the problem is you will never have three. You have either 30 or none. Three is just. It's too close. So you need. You need a massive mass exodus. So let's, you know, recognize A, there's existential threat, B, we still have a lot of, you know, resources. And C, is never give in, never cave in. Because if you came in on something, you think small, it's just. It's not a compromise. They will come back with a bigger stick and with more. With more aggressive demands.

[Charlie Sykes]

Gary Kasparov, thank you so much for your time. And you can find your work over at the Renew Democracy initiative. And you have a new site up the next move, which is crucial because I think you, like us, understand that this is the moment to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.