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- [00:00]
Darina
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- [01:02]
Alltrails Representative
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- [01:30]
AT&T Business Representative
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- [02:12]
Charlie Sachs
Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sachs. I am joined by the legendary Harry Littman. Harry, good to talk with you.
- [02:20]
Harry Littman
Thanks, Charlie. Quite a day to be here with you and always a pleasure no matter what the news.
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Charlie Sachs
Okay, look, I mean, I would love to talk about the insurification of the rose garden. I want to talk. I would love to spend the entire time talking about the south park episode and Kristi Noem's reaction. The only they show her killing one puppy after another and all she cares about is they made fun of her looks. I don't Know, we could talk about vaccine, we could talk about vaccines. We could talk about how Donald Trump's about to surrender Ukraine. We could talk about, you know, redistricting. We could spend the whole thing on Jeffrey Epstein. But believe it or not, there's so much else we have to talk about. So I want to get to your two hours.
- [02:58]
Harry Littman
Steve, I just say doj. Yep.
- [03:02]
Charlie Sachs
Well, let's, let's start with the FBI before that. I mean, I want to start with the ongoing purge of the FBI. The Trump appointed leaders of the FBI deepened their purge of employees this week, forcing out senior agents, including the former acting head of the Bureau, Bureau and another top official whose ascent angered Trump's supporters. So, Brian Driscoll, Stephen Jensen out. Talk to me about that, because the destruction of the FBI institutionally and reputationally is deeper than, I think, almost the most extreme concern, the loss of centuries of experience. So talk to me about what's going on in the FBI and what that means.
- [03:47]
Harry Littman
Yeah, and look, I think you nailed it. In turn, I think they're humiliated and have been completely politicized. But let's just take a step back. This is what the Trump administration must be saying. We all observed in front of our eyes. I think what by any measure is the worst transgression against American democracy in the country's lifetime, the vi the attempt to violently prevent the peaceful transfer of power which is the hallmark of any democracy. And what they must be saying is the people whom they have sacked, not only, it's not only, of course, the unfairness, because they were doing their job rightly, as they understood and were ordered at the time. But it has to be a claim that this was such a terrible injustice to investigate this crime that they, we now must rid the department of any trace of their scent. So that must mean, Charlie, that on January 7, the duty of the FBI and entire American law enforcement was to say, oh, that's fine. Oh, that's actually good. All these patriots trying to help out the American cause. We're just going to give this a pass. Can you imagine any democracy having that response to the crimes we all saw in front of our eyes? So just on top of. Sorry, go ahead.
- [05:20]
Charlie Sachs
Well, we have another January 6th story, but I mean, I just want to talk about, get your sense of the. What this will mean for morale. The New York Times story talks about Driscoll, a charismatic FBI veteran became an unlikely champion of the Bureau after being accidentally catapulted to the director's chair on Inauguration Day. Those actions, and he pushed back against the Original attempts to initiatify and purge the FBI. Those actions earned him folk hero status among the rank and file. He was targeted by EM Beauvais, who we both know. So what does it do to the morale of the department to see someone who is this respected, this popular, with this much integrity and experience thrown to the wolves?
- [06:06]
Harry Littman
It craters it and it stands to reason that it does. But we also now begin to get reports, testimonials from people who are saying exactly this. And the FBI is a place of tremendous esprit de corps, you could say, but man, they take great pride in their badge and their mission and to not simply. I mean, we just found out yesterday they're going to send FBI out maybe to see where the Texas legislators are. No crime possibly in the office.
- [06:40]
Charlie Sachs
No federal crime.
- [06:42]
Harry Littman
We'll return to that. But they are, you know, they're a. A really proud lot. And they really, really, really care about DOJ having their back when it happens. They care about their reputation. So this is just absolutely trashing it. And Driscoll's a great example. He's someone who stepped forward accidentally and, and did what any FBI person would do in any other time, which is to support his troops. And now I remember just even from the start, Charlie, we could talk about any of these for the whole episode. But they originally to put in cash Patel. And so the FBI rank and file said, you got to put in a serious person as deputy. They promised to do it, broke their promise and put in who Dan Bongino, who is, you know, totally on the sort of MAGA program. So from the start they have been reeling. But more than that, now they are being sacrificed unfairly, as you say, thrown to the wolves. And in a way that is not just unfair to their individual leaders, but to their whole mission. They're being mocked and humiliated. FBI doesn't like that one last sentence, which is it raises the question when and how and for how long will it take to just restore all the things that are being bold are being absolutely decimated day by day? Sorry.
- [08:20]
Charlie Sachs
Well, I don't know that. No, that's an excellent question. I mean, I was going to ask maybe a lesser question, which is like the decision that FBI agents and, you know, senior people have to make. Do you stay, you know, because you want to honor the institution or do you get the hell out, considering what it's become? But it seems as an outsider that it's going to take a very long time, very long time to repair this kind of damage. You can't take, you know, Talking about, you know, years and years and years of experience, reputational experience, to talk someone into walking into that institution again, I don't know. No one knows the answer. Okay, so you mentioned January 6th before. Here's the other story. I want to get to the NPR report. And this is like, you cannot make this stuff up. This is the Department of Justice official who has just been promoted urging January 6th rioters to kill cops. And NPR got their hands on this body cam. Less than five years after urging rioters to kill police at the capitol, a former January 6th defendant is working as a senior advisor for the Department of Justice, which has been dramatically remade under. Under Trump. NPR has obtained police body cam footage from multiple angles showing that the former defendant and current administration official Jared Wise. Wise berating officers, calling them Nazis and Gestapo. And this footage been introduced at his trial by the old Department of Justice. The charges were dropped when Trump made them all go away. But talk to me about that. It's not just that they have pardoned the January 6 rioters, including those that attacked the cops. It is not just that they are firing all the people who investigated it. They are now naming to senior positions, or at least senior advisor positions in the Department of Justice people who participated in this insurrection, including people who were screaming, kill the police.
- [10:32]
Harry Littman
Right. They are. You're right. It's not simply that they're inserting them in pockets. They are lionizing them. And conversely, so they're saying anybody. And this goes for prosecutors in spades. Charlie, who worked to actually, again, investigate and prosecute. This is the biggest operation in DOJ history and it deserved to be. We saw it in real time. And now somehow it is perfectly Orwellian. It's part of a broader mission to somehow rewrite history and make this be what, some kind of heroic, patriotic episode that we all saw. So, Wise, let me a couple things about the FBI. They are maybe even too much people have said, but they're really, really we. And they, they're the good guys and the bad guys. And how much more paradigmatic a bad guy can you be than someone who's coming in saying kill the cops and six video games or not. Sorry, they knew this already. So just in the center of their, you know, insular kind of ranks is somebody like that and their leadership. The other thing about them, they tend to be like military folks who pretty darn obedient. But what do you do when the people above you giving you orders aren't just. And this is a real problem anyway, don't just not know Anything. Patel knows nothing. Bongino knows nothing. But are literally hostile. That's an understatement. Are literally, you know, viciously opposed to the very idea of law and order and democracy and the rule of law. You know, they have to be so down in the dumps. And you're right, they're considering leaving. Many of them are. But, you know, you're an FBI agent, you're top of the charts. There are other federal law enforcement agencies, but they're the same. You're not going to want to go be a school crossing guard. I mean, for a lot of them, this is sort of career ending. You don't give, you know, what are you going to be, a private consultant somewhere? This is a terrible moral crisis, but indeed it's a terrible moral crisis for the country to try to reconfigure in front of our eyes. And the attempt to redress the crime we all saw as some kind of terrible rogue operation to punish heroes and patriots. That being the problem. The cops crown.
- [13:00]
Charlie Sachs
This is really the world turned upside down. I mean, when you talk about the good guys and the bad guys that you point out, lionizing them, putting them in positions to take. And again, the thing that's the most, should be the most shocking is this administration which claims that it is so pro law enforcement that it backs the blue. And so it was even among people who were saying, you know, Donald Trump is going to pardon a lot of these January 6th rioters. I think there was an assumption that he might have a carve out for the people who actually attacked police officers, actually beat them, tased them, did all of that stuff. He did not. But now to promote, to bring into the Department of Justice someone like this, it is. It's when of those, you can't make this story up. But for people who are sort of, you know, feeling that that sense of disorientation, you know. No, it's not you. It is in fact this moral inversion where the guys who are attacking the cops are now being promoted. The people who investigated the crime and tried to defend the Capitol are the ones who are being targeted. Okay, so this 100%.
- [14:10]
Harry Littman
Can I just take it one more sentence, though? I want to bring it to the Department of Justice and my old compadres just. We got on air, Charlie, we heard that no less a personage than Ed Martin Jr. The very guy who represented January 6th defendants, the very guy who wanted to. To exonerate them, the very guy who did all these things in their favor and couldn't become U.S. attorney as a result, has now been made special counsel to investigate Letitia James and Adam Schiff, a guy with A, no law enforcement experience, but B, total hostility to the law enforce mission of the doj. So it's not the FBI, that's a biggie, but all the line prosecutors. This was their biggest operation in history ever. And they're also being told, you blew it, guys. You, you put your lot in with what, with evil. I mean, that's, that's the only way to construe. Not only that they're being fired now and a guy like Ed Martin is being elevated to make trouble politically. It's so, you know, as you say, everything upside down and it's such a fusillade lately. Just, you know, the last two weeks.
- [15:26]
Charlie Sachs
Have been, yeah, well, and you, Ed Martin, I mean, he was, you know, so he was so toxic that he couldn't get confirmed as U.S. attorney for Washington. Of course, they doubled down by naming Jeanine Perrott. But think about all the people who have been confirmed in this administration. I mean, how low the standards are that you would confirm a Joe Kent or a Cash Patel or a Pete Hegseth or a Tulsi Gabbard. And yet when they got to Ed Martin, they said, no, that guy is absolutely not that guy. And now he is the special counsel once again going after political opponents of the president. And again, there's nothing subtle about all of this. I think the concern about the FBI as well as the, as the Department of Justice is that Trump is moving to make these personal instruments of the enforcement of his own political agenda and his own personal, and his own personal sense of revenge. So he's turning these respected organizations into basically brute squad. So you had a piece a few days ago, Trump, Gabbard, and Bondi go full Jacobin. And this was, and you wrote, this is the moment we have feared, the moment the Supreme Court invoked in giving Trump immunity and the moment that marks an authoritarian government at its most vulgar and vicious. And it's gotten worse since then the last few days, as you point out, this seems like a kinder, gentler time. And it was only last Monday when Bondi signed the order directing the creation of a convening of a grand jury to investigate whether officials in Barack Obama's administration or Barack Obama himself purposely manufactured the intelligence assessment that said, hey, you know, Russia was trying to influence this. So talk to me about that. Let's just slow this down because.
- [17:25]
Harry Littman
This.
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Charlie Sachs
Of course, is Donald. Is Donald Trump's obsession to go back to Russiagate he's been saying it's a hoax and now he wants to target all of the people involved and all that. As you point out, there's nothing. You know, again, there are a lot of problems with this, including that there's no evidence to suggest that any crime was committed. So talk to me a little bit about that because if we're in right wing radio, I mean right wing media, people who listen to this might not be aware of this. They are. There's, you know, we may be talking about the Epstein case and a variety of other cases. They're talking about Sydney Sweeney and the Barack Obama treason investigation. So this is a big thing. Is there any there there? Yeah.
- [18:11]
Harry Littman
So let me say a few things and you're really right, Charlie, to tell me to both to sort of slow down. It's happening at such a quick pace and in such an alarming way. The first thing I want to note is what you'd said in passing that was that, you know, it feels like there's been a month of nasty DOJ stuff in between. And what about comparing that with say, the January six pardons that happened in what, the Eisenhower era? I mean, we are really living through assault after assault. That's point one.
- [18:46]
Charlie Sachs
Right.
- [18:47]
Harry Littman
Point to the origin of this. One must have ethically predication. You can't. This has happened with Ed Martin. Ed Martin ordered his criminal chief go to the grand jury and show how EPA under Biden. I can't do that. There's no predication. I quit. Same thing here. They, they have to go now to the grand jury and say what Basically what they're investigating. We don't even know who's doing it yet. Is that Obama all his, all his most hated, you know, kind of.
- [19:22]
Charlie Sachs
Jim Clapper.
- [19:23]
Harry Littman
Right. The people, the voodoo dolls. Brent. Exactly. After Hillary got together 2015, 2016, said let's, let's ignore everything the professionals are saying. But of course they said the same thing and manufacture this narrative that says that Putin was trying to help Trump get elected. Something that's just really beyond peradventure at this point. Any historian would say it's just the overall effort to fight facts within the administration. So that's what they're supposedly investigating for. And since it's a criminal investigation, let me just say that, you know, that means what they have to have the predication they need to have from what Tulsi Gabbard is saying is a. They did it and they did it intentionally and nefariously. They don't have a scintilla of evidence of it. And then finally the power that they have to abuse. Because even if it goes nowhere, first, you know, it dirties everyone up, especially the Brennans of the world, not Obama. And second, money for, for defense attorney time. It is a really kind of savage low blow. And the reason I said this is the moment I meant it is. Here's where it happens. Look at Russia. Look at whatever. When you take innocent predecessors and make up crap and put them in front of criminal charges and the complete bastardization of the criminal law and law enforcement, that's as bad as it gets when you're a corrupt doj. And I think we're there.
- [21:13]
Charlie Sachs
I think we're there too, you know, and Garry Kasparov, who has seen this in Russia, made the point that you don't actually need to have the tanks in the street or people being thrown into prison to get this climate of authoritarianism. You just need to, you know, ruin their lives, mess up their lives, make it as inconvenient as possible, harass them, you know, make them lie awash.
- [21:36]
Harry Littman
Yeah, this is so right. We think about tanks in the street. It's. Look at Hungary. Look. It's just the complete corruption of the laws and making enemies completely afraid to go forward. What, how does Schiff feel today? How does, you know, all the FBI agents, etc. Can he make examples of enough people so that others are cowed? The answer so far is you. Bam. Right? He can.
- [22:03]
Charlie Sachs
Yeah. And again, there's a lot of other people who are thinking, you know what, maybe this is a time to keep my head down. Maybe this is a time to, you know, move on with my life, to disengage, which of course is the point. So again, let's. Again, slowing this down a little bit. So the entire investigation is that this was manufactured. This was a Barack Obama era lie, big lie smear of Donald Trump. And as you point out, okay, look, the evidence in this is overwhelming. The intelligence community assessment, which was prepared by career professionals, concluded that Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 to undermine public faith in the democratic process, check denigrate Secretary Clinton and harm her electability and potential presidency. Then that was reaffirmed in multiple investigations by, by, you know, the Mueller investigation, the Special Intelligence Committee, which was headed by Marco Rubio, which found that, that this assessment was coherent and well constructed, reconfirmed that Russia engaged in an aggressive, multifaceted effort to influence the election in Trump's favor. And then of course, you had the entire Durham investigation, you know, the John Durham investigation. So this is not the first grand jury or investigation to see whether was, you know, had been concocted. And Durham remind, remind folks he came up empty.
- [23:32]
Harry Littman
I mean, and man, did he try not to. He went for four years and tried not to. Look, everything is really nefarious as you're saying. But there's also this odd crazy obsession with Trump literally to rewrite history. You know, he wants it somehow to be the case that the history books say that these. Look, it's a fact that Putin wanted him. We understand that fact. The professional intelligence agencies. Obama made a great point in sort of giving it back of the hand treatment. What we somehow were, you know, rolled all the intelligence professionals who said this very thing and this crazy kind of over the top Orwellian is really the right word. Ambition of his not only to do in enemies, but to change the history books is. That's a kind of psychopathology that is a whole separate problem for this country.
- [24:31]
Charlie Sachs
Well, it is. I mean we could and also just, just mention in passing that he's prepared to change the facts in, in virtually every part of American life if they're inconvenient for him, including the jobless numbers. You know, the, you know, it was just a little more than a week ago that he fired the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics after some jobs numbers came out. They're scrubbing data from the epa. So I, going on. But it's also interesting that, so Trump is tout. Okay, first of all, I mean, so Tulsi Gabbard is the one who set this off. Tulsi Gabbard, who has never met a conspiracy theory she doesn't like. So she, you know, she actually came out with all of this. I have these smoking guns in this evidence. You've looked at what she presented. Most experts have looked at it and go, there's nothing here that undermines the, the overall deeply held consensus of all of these other investigators. And yet the President of the United States pointed at what she said is it's there. He's guilty of Obama, this was treason. So it's not just that he's rewriting history. He basically says, look, I've been impeached twice. I'm a convicted felon. I am going to destroy the reputation of everybody else. Right. I mean, isn't this part of the, that, okay, if I've gone through this, I'm going to ruin everybody else's reputation accusing Barack Obama of treason. Just talk to me a little bit about treason. That the, the, the mentality that if you've criticized me, Donald Trump, you know, that I am. That is the equivalent of an act of treason against the United States of America.
- [26:09]
Harry Littman
Breathtaking, right? I'm reminded way back in Trump 1.0 of Scaramucci saying he tried to read the Constitution to him, and after about six minutes, Trump wouldn't listen. Treason is in the Constitution. It says exactly what it is and what it is, and it consists in the levying of aid and comfort to an enemy, meaning we are at war. So what a kind of breathtaking encapsulation of Trump's worldview. Right? You came at me. That's treason. The only way to make sense of that is because I am America. I am America. I am the state. We are at war. That's my position. So that. And let me also mention treason, a capital offense. He's saying what? That. That Obama, a predecessor president, should face the firing squad for, you know, having adopted the assessment of the professionals. And then just quickly, on Gabbard, I didn't want to belabor it too much for my readers, but really what she's done is take, you know, when you do things four or five times, there are teeny little parts, you know, trying to salvage his pretty bad hand. For instance, Durham says, well, I think they overstated the credibility of this guy. Or maybe they put too much here. Zero, though everybody, as you say, Charlie, completely consistent on the view of the intelligence assessment itself in 2015. Remember, they actually wanted to brief Trump on this. Yes, they're making mischief in all kinds of ways in the country and why they want Trump to win. You know, that's just a historical fact that they want to undo. And we've actually bypassed, I think, really, the big guilty party here, because Gabbard, she's supposed to be impartial specifically in her role, but so is Pam Bondi. So with nothing but this tirade of fiction by Gabbard, who. Who gets up in the middle of the White House briefing room and calls Obama a treason. Treasonous former President Bondi, with nothing else, says, okay, and does not only a task force. That's kind of bad, but you could at least think they're aiming at something other than prosecution. She had, and she hasn't told us whom, but I'm here to tell you it's going to be one of these loyalists in a very malleable district, red district, who now has the task of investigating, literally investigating like you would any crime if there were predication. And based on what? Based on Tulsi Gabbard sort of, you know, Flatulent outpourings, as you say, of complete tawdry conspiracy theories. So I got to also put Pam Bondi in the doghouse here for going at something so completely political and without any merit. And any look at Bill Barr or any Attorney General. General worth their salt would just say, you don't exploit me.
- [29:18]
Charlie Sachs
We'd never do this.
- [29:20]
Harry Littman
We need some facts and law and go away.
- [29:23]
Charlie Sachs
Yeah, well, this is why we're in a completely uncharted world. And I wonder whether or not even those of us who spend a lot of time have really connected all the dots, how much damage has been done? Because going back to the accusation of treason, and this has become now routine, that if you criticize Trump, if you've gone up against Trump, that is an act of treason. So what he's doing is he is, you know, laying the groundwork for criminalizing any sort of political dissent and opposition, which, you know, talk about dangers. Now, part of this is that all of this is just payback for what the Democrats did to Trump. And this is the whole thing. You guys hear this new weapon. Well, and, you know, the projection understand Trump to understand how often he will project what he is doing onto his opponents. So Trump. And by the way, you notice how seldom it's mentioned that Trump is, in fact, a convicted felon. It is like that's been dropped into the memory hole. But, you know, you mentioned, you know, Bonney is a player here. The good news, though, is, of course, all of the Republicans in the United States Senate who stood up and said, hey, this is going too far. Right? We're not part of this. I'm kidding, because nobody said anything. I mean, and part of what we're seeing in one story after another, these incredible overreaches. Trump, I mean, it's one thing for Trump to want to do these things, but the fact is that the story of the last six months has been one institution after another caving into him, giving him what he wants. And so, for example, this is almost a digression, it feels like. So the week that he's doing all of these things, you have Tim Cook, one of the most powerful business leaders in America, going into the Oval Office and giving him some gold piece of shit, you know, bribing him. In real life, you have Donald Trump calling for the CEO of Intel to be fired. And the question is, why is this happening? Because no one has said, you're going too far. If you had four members of the US Senate, four Republicans who said, I'm sorry, we're not going to go along with this. If you had a half dozen members of the House of Representatives, Donald Trump would have a check on him. So now the question is, and so, you know, now the question is, what are the Fed, you know, you're the talking Feds guy. What are the courts going to do? Because I've gone through periods of optimism where I thought, well, surely the courts are going to see that they are the last redoubt, they are the last guardrail. I am getting a little. I'm not so sure. I've just, you know, today, before we were, when we started recording this, you had the appeals court throughout Judge Boasberg's, you know, finding that the Trump administration had violated his order, very clear order, in shipping off migrants to El Salvador. So give me your sense. Everything now flows to the courts. You can have a grand jury, but you need to have judges. You need to have judges who say that there is a predicate. What's gonna happen? How is this going to play out?
- [32:33]
Harry Littman
It really does, and it's so important. It's what I was thinking, Charlie, as you were talking about the Senate and the House, because we do have a consummate failure of all institutions to include the courts. Now, let me say, you know, a few things about them. If you'd asked me literally three weeks ago, my overall view would have been, just as we've talked about with the FBI, courts and the Supreme Court are doing a lot of damage. But the most important principle, namely that when the courts stand up for the law, if the administration tries to violate it, they will be there to rein them in, as they were with Boasberg and the aea. I thought that was there. And my sort of conventional response was, man, we're hurting, man, we're taking it on the chin. But this most important question will resolve itself, meaning the survival, not to be too dramatic, of the American experiment. But again and again, even since the end of the term, which ended with the hellacious decision that expanded executive power, the one about nationwide injunctions, they've now four different times, and they've been asked a fifth time today to buy operation of their shadow docket. So we don't even know what they're doing. But they've again and again given a green light to Trump. Now, there are a few. And I've always tried to emphasize the point. People have said, is it a Trump appointee or another kind of pointee? And it matters. Like today, the Boasberg opinion that you say was to Trump conservative judges on the D.C. circuit that might go on bonk. But I've really tried to emphasize this vertical kind of relationship. And I'll tell you, I am less sanguine than I used to be. There are a couple ways of looking at it. One is an overall strategic sense of, you know, when are we really cutting into bone. And even the six members of the court understand that or three of them and but and the and but factoring that in is not wanting being hyper conscious about not wanting to at least unnecessarily throw down the gauntlet and have Trump just ignore it. So there's that kind of calculation. But they have overall provided enough leeway, enough rope, enough running room and really important and as far as I can see, rank lawless moves on his part with universities, with aliens most recently with law. Might they even if you you credit them with having a kind of broader sensibility, it's not clear to me. I think at least a couple of them are all in on the US versus them. Except the other thing. Could they just, you know, go to a point where it's just too late? And that's what I fear more now. And it's a really important part. If they had been really consistent in each of these cases in here's the line we drew the line. You cross the line go away. The entire profile and dynamic, even of the indolent bovine Congress would look so different. But they always just today the ninth Circuit said look, you're out in Los Angeles and rounding people up with no suspicion just because they're brown and they have an accent. And the ninth Circuit said we don't see. We're not changing that. That's what you're doing. Indeed, the administration said we're not. So there's no irreparable harm if you're not doing it. They've moved for emergency relief in the Supreme Court. That's the kind of thing in recent weeks the court has through their shadow document change things around.
- [36:37]
Charlie Sachs
That'll be by the way.
- [36:39]
Harry Littman
Yeah. So let me just say one last thing which is on this point which is the Bozberg it's a this is sort of the granddaddy of them all. Everybody understands that the DOJ in the person especially of 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals judge for life Emile Beauvais just gave the middle finger to the court. The courts understand that this court knows Bowensburg personally. What happens now? Will it go en banc? Well, the on which means all of the judges.
- [37:09]
Charlie Sachs
Right.
- [37:09]
Harry Littman
Of the 11. Well, even more the senior ones too. But seven to four are Democrats and If it does, and I think it probably will, will the court then pull the rug out from under an en banc ruling that reverses these two Trump judges? And if they do, I am more down in the dumps describing as I've been the last few weeks where I'm not as sanguine as I've been that at the end of day, on the most, just the most important, all kinds of other collateral damage, but on the most important, the court will be there for us. I am nervous.
- [37:47]
Charlie Sachs
We will keep an eye on that one. Harry Lippman, thank you so much for joining me. You can find Harry's work over it.
- [37:52]
Harry Littman
Let's do it again Charlie. I love talking.
- [37:54]
Charlie Sachs
Let's do it regularly. Absolutely. Talking Feds Talking Feds podcast, Talking Feds substack. You should subscribe. And again, thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this? Especially this episode I think underlines the fact that we need to keep reminding ourselves and others that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [38:16]
Michaela Matthews
So true.
- [38:28]
Darina
Hi, I'm Darina, co founder of OpenPhone. My dad is a business owner and growing up, I'll never forget his old ringtone. He made it as loud as it could go because he could not afford to miss a single customer call. That stuck with me when we started OpenPhone. Our mission was to help businesses not just stay in touch, but make every customer feel valued, no matter when they might call. OpenPhone gives your team business phone numbers to call and text customers, all through an app on your phone or computer. Your calls, messages and contacts live in one workspace space so your team can stay fully aligned and reply faster. And with our AI agent answering 24. 7, you'll really never miss a customer. Over 60,000 businesses use OpenPhone. Try it now and get 20% off your first six months@openphone.com tech and we can port your existing numbers over for free. OpenPhone no missed calls, no missed customers out here.
- [39:29]
Alltrails Representative
It's not only the amazing views, but the way time stretches out a little longer and how the breeze hits just right at the summit. With Alltrails, you can discover nature's best with over 450,000 trails around the world. Download the free app today.
- [39:48]
Tide Representative
Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water? Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide Pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be Tide.
- [40:19]
Charlie Sachs
Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts Here's a show that we recommend World.
- [40:26]
Michaela Matthews
If you've ever dreamed of quitting your job to take your side Hustle full time, listen up. This is Michaela Matthews, aome host of Side Hustle Pro, a podcast that helps you build and grow from passion project to profitable business. Every week you'll hear from guests just like you who wanted to start a business on the side. If you can't run a side Hustle, you can't run a business. They share real tips and so I started connecting with all these people on LinkedIn and I thought target supplier diversity was having office hours.
- [40:53]
Alltrails Representative
Real advice Procrastination is the easiest form.
- [40:56]
Michaela Matthews
Of resistance and the actual strategies they use to turn their Side Hustle into their main hustle. Getting back in touch with your tangible cash and sitting down and learning to give your money a job like it changes something. Check out side Hustle Pro every week on your favorite podcast app and YouTube.
- [41:16]
Charlie Sachs
Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcast cast everywhere acast.
- [41:23]
Harry Littman
Com.