It's Electability Stupid

Summary

Podcast Summary: "It's Electability, Stupid"

To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes | August 13, 2026
Guest: Matt Bennett, Executive Vice President for Public Affairs, Third Way

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Charlie Sykes is joined by Matt Bennett from the centrist think tank Third Way to unpack the recent political earthquake in Wisconsin, the ongoing conflict between mainstream Democrats and the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), and what these developments mean for Democratic electability in 2028 and beyond. The discussion is frank, brisk, and unapologetically focused on the need to win elections rather than pursue ideological purity—hence the episode’s title. The conversation covers not just electoral strategies but also fundamental questions of party identity, the dangers of adopting radical positions, and the real-time impact of far-left politics on Democratic prospects.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wisconsin’s Shock Result: The DSA Hits a Wall

• [03:55] Francesca Hong, a DSA-backed candidate favored to win the Democratic primary for governor in Wisconsin, was defeated in a major upset by centrist Milwaukee County Executive David Crowley.
• Sykes points out this as a moment when voters, "stared into the electoral abyss and decided, on second thought, that they’d rather actually win elections than take a chance on what David Axelrod called 'zany, liberal faculty lounge exotica.'"
• The viral downfall: Hong’s past online stance on “canceling Thanksgiving” ([05:38]).

"Hong was cruising to victory until she had to explain why she once called for canceling Thanksgiving. And here's one of the decisive moments that really went viral..." – Charlie Sykes [05:09]

• Crowley is now positioned to be the first African American governor of Wisconsin.
• The upset is seen as a rebuke of the DSA’s political vision.

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2. The DSA Agenda and Why It’s a Problem for Democrats

• [08:43] Bennett distinguishes between “liberal Democrats” and the “radical” DSA, describing the current DSA's platform as far more extreme than most voters realize.
  • DSA platform points cited: opening all borders, abolishing prisons, seeking to eliminate core U.S. institutions (presidency, Senate, Supreme Court), abandoning Ukraine, and nationalizing industry.

"These are not liberal Democrats... You’ve got to think about people who are much, much more radical... A platform that would strike virtually every American as completely bonkers." – Matt Bennett [08:43]

• New DSA congressional members are running in safe seats but represent a hostile takeover effort rather than a mere activist wing.
• Sykes and Bennett underscore the moral and strategic problems with the DSA's stances, particularly on foreign policy toward Ukraine ([11:34]).

“It is completely not only crazy, it is immoral. It is the abandonment of an ally to a despot who is destroying their country and murdering their civilians.” – Matt Bennett [11:36]

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3. Electability vs. Ideological Purity

• [12:31–13:14] Sykes and Bennett agree that extreme positions (e.g., “defund the police,” canceling Thanksgiving) make Democrats vulnerable to Republican attacks and can cost crucial swing districts.
• The 2020 cycle is cited: Democrats lost a net of 12 House seats largely due to Republican messaging around “defund the police.”

“One thing Republicans are really, really good at is taking the most radical ideas on the fringes of the left and imputing those ideas to people running in swing districts and states.” – Matt Bennett [13:14]

• Sykes notes the Republican desire to make socialist/communist scare tactics stick and how running actual DSA candidates makes that task easier for the GOP ([14:57-15:39]).

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4. Third Way’s $15 Million Pushback Campaign & Its Strategy

• [15:52] Bennett details Third Way’s campaign:
  • Not traditional ad spending against candidates but a multi-year effort ($15m over 3 years) to educate Democratic voters about the true nature and dangers of the DSA.
  • The campaign aims to prevent “a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party” and reinforce that DSA radicals are not “just a liberal faction.”
  • Warning from recent races: mainstream Dems sometimes don’t see the insurgents coming or underestimate their impact ([17:39–20:59]).

“They are coming to change the party in fundamental ways, to kill the party... Most Democrats are unaware of this. They can’t conceive of anyone believing the kinds of wacky things that we were talking about.” – Matt Bennett [15:52]

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5. Party Identity, Generational Change, and Voter Misperceptions

• The DSA’s most fervent support tends to be in highly educated, urban "Commie Corridor" precincts, not blue-collar or minority communities.

“The people they purport to represent actually do not support the DSA. A lot of the people that were voting for these candidates are doing so...because they want somebody younger, somebody more aggressive. What we don't want is to nominate fruitcakes who can't possibly win...” – Matt Bennett [20:58]

• Crowley’s victory was built on strong support from rural and Black voters, not college towns.

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6. Robert Reich’s Critique & Debate About Centrism

• [25:29] Bennett responds to Robert Reich’s harsh criticism of Third Way (“moronic bullshit,” calls them “corporatist shills”).
  • He defends the organization as focused not on splitting difference between extremes, but on winning as reasonable, mainstream Democrats.
  • Challenges the notion that donor funding determines policy stances.

“Our donors have absolutely nothing to do with our political positions. Literally nothing.” – Matt Bennett [27:25]

• Sykes and Bennett deride attacks that focus on “establishment” or “corporatist” labels as a distraction from substantive policy debate ([29:04]).

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7. Economic vs. Cultural Leftism: The Real Electoral Danger

• [30:30] Sykes draws a line between popular economic populism and far-left cultural positions, such as free sex-change operations for inmates.
  • Warns not to underestimate the GOP's ability to weaponize extreme cultural stances against Democrats.

“People should never underestimate how effectively MAGA will weaponize the most extreme, eccentric ideas out there.” – Charlie Sykes [32:11]

• Bennett agrees—successful moderates recognize nuance: “There are shades of gray that you don’t see black and white.” ([32:11–33:59])

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8. Electoral Math: Persuasion and Not Being "Crazy"

• [35:02] Sykes asserts Democrats need to show voters they are “not crazy,” share voter values, and don’t look down on them.
  • Bennett: "If you communicate to voters that either we're nuts, we don't share their values, or we think they are bigoted and stupid, you're going to lose." ([36:19])
  • Crowley's win underscores the importance of normalcy and respect.

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9. The Rise of Independent and Unity Tickets in Red States

• [37:23] Sykes highlights an interesting trend: Democrats in deep red states running or supporting centrist independents or unity tickets to gain a foothold, citing recent developments in Idaho, Nebraska, South Dakota, Arizona, and Florida.
• Bennett endorses this as pragmatic when the Democratic brand is too toxic to win on its own ([38:58–40:19]).

“We have to be as strategic as we possibly can be. There is no question...having an Independent in those seats is a billion times better than having a MAGA Republican...” – Matt Bennett [40:19]

• Sykes points to successful European opposition coalitions as instructive models and the British Labour Party’s failed left turn under Corbyn as a cautionary tale.

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10. Is Third Way Being Divisive? The Party Unity Debate

• [43:12] Sykes asks if Third Way’s anti-DSA push is dividing the party.
• Bennett is unequivocal: DSA’s aim “is to destroy our party.” He rejects that calling out DSA is divisive, distinguishing between far-left insurgents and progressive Democrats.

"We don't regard the DSA as members of the party. These are people that want to come in and destroy our party, and they're doing great damage to our party." – Matt Bennett [43:44]

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11. The DSA's Platform Confronted – The Importance of "Bubble-Breaking"

• Sykes urges listeners to watch interviews with DSA leaders, noting the dissonance between their rhetoric and how they handle tough questions ([44:54]).
• Bennett cites practical consequences of left-wing experiments (San Francisco’s DA, Portland's drug decriminalization) as warnings.

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12. Final Thoughts: The Stakes for 2028 and Beyond

• Bennett emphasizes that the anti-DSA fight is ultimately about beating MAGA Republicans, not about waging an intra-party civil war for its own sake.
• Moderates need to make clear which kind of Democrats they are, especially to counter MAGA smears.
• As Sykes concludes: “We need to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones.” ([47:17])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Why Electability Matters:

  “There are certain moments that turn things around... I got to say, Matt, I think that was a worse campaign moment even than the Dukakis in a tank. That went viral and she was cruising to victory and she lost.” – Charlie Sykes [06:25]

• On the DSA’s Radicalism:

  “They use the term 'have the workers own the means of production', which is Marxist. So they take their radicalism seriously and we should, too.” – Matt Bennett [09:43]

• Republican Attack Strategy:

  “The problem is it makes it a lot easier for them to make the charge stick when there are actual Democrats who are communists, who describe themselves as communists... it just makes it much easier for them to make the charge stick.” – Matt Bennett [15:14]

• Generational and Demographic Contradictions:

  “The precincts where the DSA candidates won tend to be very white and very highly educated.” – Matt Bennett [19:33]

• Party Unity & Reality:

  “You can have both of those ideas. But you've got to recognize that most voters, at least most swing voters...see shades of gray, where extremists on both sides see black and white.” – Matt Bennett [33:59]

• The Three Boxes for Voters:

  "You have to convince that voter that you are not crazy. You have to convince that voter that you share their values...And that you do not despise them or look down on them." – Charlie Sykes [35:02]

• On Third Way’s Motivation:

  “Our entire purpose in life is electing Democrats and making the world better for people who struggle. I will, though, own the fact that people like me... we have failed to make life better for enough people. There is no question.” – Matt Bennett [29:11]

• On Making Common Cause Across the Spectrum:

  “We have got to make common cause with those people. The fight here is against the MAGA forces that are trying to destroy the country.” – Matt Bennett [41:59]

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Important Timestamps

• [03:55] — Analysis of Wisconsin & the Francesca Hong campaign meltdown
• [08:43] — The true DSA agenda vs. “Scandinavian socialism”
• [11:36] — DSA’s position on Ukraine and its implications
• [15:52] — Third Way’s $15M anti-DSA campaign explained
• [20:58] — Who actually supports the DSA? Demographic trends examined
• [25:29] — Bennett responds to Robert Reich’s critique of Third Way
• [32:11] — The culture war, “woke” leftism, and electoral consequences
• [35:02] — Sykes’s “three tests” for persuading voters
• [38:58] — Independent and unity tickets in deep red states
• [43:44] — Is Third Way being divisive? Party unity discussed
• [44:54] — The need to confront DSA leaders on their actual policies

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Final Takeaway

This episode is a candid, lively discussion about the enduring battle for the soul—and success—of the Democratic Party. Sykes and Bennett make the case that, in American politics 2026, what’s truly at stake is not just ideology, but the fundamental ability to win, to govern, and to keep democracy itself intact. As the title insists: It’s electability, stupid.

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Transcript

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Charlie Sykes]

I'm Charlie Sykes, and this is the to the Contrary podcast. Donald Trump, of course, is desperately trying to explain why he ditched Air Force One and left everybody else on the plane as decoys. Meanwhile, the DSA's Hot Summer Hits a wall in Wisconsin, where Democratic voters stared into the electoral abyss and they decided, on second thought, that they'd rather actually win elections than take a chance on what David Axelrod called zany, liberal faculty lounge exotica. It was also a bad night for crazy in Minnesota, where my pillow guy, Mike Lindell, was defeated in a Republican primary despite being endorsed by Donald Trump. But the civil war between mainstream Democrats and the Democratic socialist insurgency is. It's not over. It is far from over. And one group has decided to make a major down payment on a campaign to block the DSA from a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party. The centrist group known as Third World Way is preparing a $15 million war chest to push back against what they call radical leftist candidates who might cost Democrats the presidency in 2028. And we're going to dive into that. And joining me on the podcast today is Matt Bennett from Third Way, Executive Vice President for Public Affairs. Welcome back on the podcast, Matt.

[Matt Bennett]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Charlie Sykes]

By the way, you have the most hilarious bio on your own website. It describes you as. As a 23 year old campaign staffer, Matt Bennett helped stage the infamous Dukakis in a tank photo op that helped sync Michael Dukakis 1988 presidential campaign. Matt would never again put a candidate in a tank other than a think tank. But now he's a long serving veteran of many political wars. I would have buried that. But you know, you're just like right up front with it, aren't you?

[Matt Bennett]

You got to own it, you know, than one of the worst campaign events ever. It's gonna come out one way or the other.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, speaking of worst campaign events ever, obviously we wanna talk about what Third Way is doing with the DSA and the election results earlier this week in, in Minnesota and Wisconsin, my home state of Wisconsin, where I think words like stunning, shocking, upset, Hail Mary pass are being used because all of the polls had suggested that the dsa, hardcore DSA candidate Francesca Hong had lead in that, in that race. You know, she campaigned with Hassan Piker and basically, you know, you know, ticked all the boxes of the dsa. She was defeated in a tremendous upset by a center left candidate, Milwaukee County Executive David Crowley, who is now positioned to be the first African American governor of the state of Wisconsin. But the reason I'm bringing this up, bad campaign moments. I want to get your sense that there are certain moments that I think turn things around. Hong was cruising to victory until she had to explain why she once called for canceling Thanksgiving. And here's one of the decisive moments that really went viral when Francesca Hong went on CNN to talk to Kaitlan Collins about that.

[Interviewer (CNN Kaitlan Collins)]

You know, you've talked about your past positions that he keeps highlighting and you know, obviously likely would continue to do so before November should you win. One thing that they brought up as well was a post from you in 2021, where you said, Americans should cancel Thanksgiving, should have done this in 1621. The post has been deleted. Republicans have been highlighting it. Do you still believe that Thanksgiving should be canceled?

[Francesca Hong]

I'm a chef, and one of the first meals that I made that was for the community when I was 16 was a Thanksgiving meal. Now, I always think my hospitality background and owning a restaurant for seven, eight years that bringing folks around the table to share conversation and build community is always a good thing. But Thanksgiving is also a time that's incredibly painful for many people in our communities. And so I think there, I wanted to make sure that people understood that there are multiple views, but views can evolve. And the position that I'm running for right now, and I think my background as a chef will actually help me become a better governor that's able to bring more people to the table.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, I got to say, Matt, I think that was a worse campaign moment even than the Dukakis in a tank. That that went viral and she was cruising to victory and she lost. So give me your sense of what your reaction was to what happened in Wisconsin. I'm looking at the coverage in the Politico. They're saying, you know, DSA's hot summer comes to an end in Wisconsin. Does that overread it, or what is your take?

[Matt Bennett]

Well, I know what I'll be thankful for this Thanksgiving, and it's that we probably will have a Democrat as governor of your state. Thank God, because the alternative is really, really grim. Look, I think the. It is true that the DSA ran into a wall yesterday, but this is not over. There are going to be at least seven DSA members, real DSA members, not liberal Democrats who affiliated with the dsa, kind of like aoc, but people who genuinely believe in the platform of the dsa, which we should talk about coming to Congress. I mean, they're running in districts where anyone with a pulse and a D next to their name will be elected to Congress. So, no, it's not over. And they've been very clear that their intention is a hostile takeover of the Democratic Party. And that is why we've been so aggressive about wanting to push back on them.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, let's talk about this, because people will say, okay, you know, why be concerned about this? This is happening because voters are angry because they are disillusioned with the establishment. They're disillusioned with, you know, the. The elders of the Democratic Party who have not been as successful as they could have been. And we need to try something new and I get a lot of that. You know, that this is, you know, the energy of the young. But do people actually know what the Democratic Socialists of America stand for? I have this debate all the time because we'll constantly push back and saying, I'm not sure these are the socialists you think they are. These are not the Scandinavian Norwegian socialists. This is not even the DSA that was founded by Michael Harrington back in the 1960s. So let's talk about that, at least the definition of what we're talking about when we talk about the dsa.

[Matt Bennett]

Yeah, that is so exactly right. These are not liberal Democrats. When you think of the dsa, don't think about. Don't even think about aoc, certainly, or Bernie. You gotta think about people who are much, much more radical than that and who are running on a platform that would strike virtually every American as completely bonkers. Like canceling Thanksgiving, among many other things. To your point. Michael Harrington, the founder of the dsa, by the way, was a committed Zionist, so that would put him outside the ranks of the DSA at the moment. But he was a socialist. You know, he and I don't agree on most things, but he was not interested in taking over and destroying the Democratic Party the way that the people who now run the DSA clearly are. And if you look at the platform of the current dsa, it involves things that sound like they were made up by Republicans. Open the border. All the borders. Open the borders. Eliminate prisons. When one of the DSA candidates, Dariel Chevalier, who's going to be a member of Congress from New York, was asked about this, she said, murderers should reflect on their crimes in their communities and not in prisons. I mean, these people are serious about not having prisons. They want to eliminate the presidency, the Senate and the Supreme Court. They want to eliminate NATO, basically all defense spending, and they want to nationalize industry, and they use the term have the workers own the means of production, which is Marxist. So they take their radicalism seriously and we should, too. This is not standard issue liberalism.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay? So, like, seriously, this is what they actually say. And because I get. People say, well, no, come on. I mean, they just want Medicare for all. They want to raise the minimum wage and things like this and things like. I mean, they're not really serious about abolishing prisons, are they? Or defunding the Pentagon. That doesn't really reflect what they're going to do. I mean, that's the kind of the feedback I get here. It's like, I think that there's a certain just sort of Almost denial that, okay, it can't be that extreme. And this is why I think what happened in Wisconsin was so interesting because, you know, you had Francesca Hong came out and everybody was all excited about this young and surging candidate. And then people began to say, do you actually really believe this? Do you really envision a world without prisons? Do you really want to defund the police and the Thanksgiving? So, I mean, these are not exaggerations, right, Matt? I mean, they are more anti Ukraine than Donald Trump was, than Mogwas. They would abandon Ukraine. They would not sell them any weapons whatsoever, right?

[Matt Bennett]

100%.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, this is the DSA.

[Matt Bennett]

Yes. I mean, I encourage viewers to watch an interview that David Remnick of the New Yorker did with one of the co chairs of the DSA where she makes it very clear that we should essentially abandon Ukraine. She said we should send more diplomats, not more arms. As if Vladimir Putin would respond to us sending more diplomats. I mean, it is completely not only crazy, it is immoral. It is the abandonment of an ally to a despot who is destroying their country and murdering their civilians. So these people are not good people. These are not people of good faith. I want to be clear, though, that there are a lot of liberal Democrats running for Congress right now, and I would include Abdullah Sayed in that number who are not members of the dsa, who don't think we should abolish prisons, who haven't gone this far, but there are a bunch of people who do

[Charlie Sykes]

well, and of course, these make for tremendous talking points. And my fear in Wisconsin was that, you know, had Francesca Hong won that primary, that all Wisconsin voters would have seen over the next three months would be millions of dollars in ads pointing out extreme positions. And so this is really a gift to MAGA and to the Republicans. I mean, Donald Trump has been looking for an issue to change the subject so that this is not a referendum on his record on Trumpism. He wants to make this a campaign about socialism and communism. Right. I mean, this is exactly what the Republicans want to have happen this year and certainly in 2028, without a doubt.

[Matt Bennett]

I mean, Trump is unbelievably unpopular, as you document every single day, very effectively, and they need to change the subject. And one thing Republicans are really, really good at is taking the most radical ideas on the fringes of the left and imputing those ideas to people running in swing districts and states. We saw this really clearly in 2020 when they took Defund the Police, which was really just an activist slogan. Almost no Democratic politicians wanted to defund the police, but they weaponized that against people running in really marginal districts. And what we got as a result was while Joe Biden won the presidency, Democrats lost a net of 12 House seats in that 2020 cycle. And we did a big retrospective on that election and what we found was to fund the police was a huge factor. There was a guy I know named Anthony Brindisi. He was a one term member from upstate New York, where I'm from. He's from Utica. I mean, in Utica, you better not want to defund the police. And he didn't. But they used that against him. And our fear, and it's coming true already, is that they're going to use these nutty ideas that the people who are going to be in Congress actually are running on against people in much more marginal places. And I think that remains a real danger.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, so, you know, one of the pushback arguments I get from people is like, okay, Republicans, you know, Donald Trump's going to lie about Democrats. You know, they're going to say that Democrats are socialists and communists anyway, so what's the harm in actually running socialists? I mean, they're going to call us that anyway. Why not just go for it? You've heard that argument million times.

[Matt Bennett]

The thing is, it's true. Trump lies about everything constantly. We can stipulate to that. And to be sure, the Republicans are going to call us communist. They always do. The problem is it makes it a lot easier for them to make the charge stick when there are actual Democrats who are communists, who describe themselves as communists, who want to abandon Ukraine, who want to open the prisons, who want to open the borders, and where they have tape of leaders of the DSA saying this publicly. And very recently, I mean, I'm talking about in the last week. This isn't ancient history. It just makes it much easier for them to make the charge stick.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, so your Group is investing $15 million, big story in the New York Times, in pushing back against the radical left. What is this campaign? What is this war? Just what do you actually plan to do?

[Matt Bennett]

Right, so as we made clear in the Times, this is not a typical, you know, independent expenditure campaign. We're going to spend money against candidates. We're not doing that. What we are doing, and this is a multi year effort. The 15 million will be spent over the course of the next three years to kind of mobilize and make clear to the Democratic Party that the DSA is again, not just a liberal faction. They are a destructive force. They are coming to change the party in fundamental ways, to kill the party. I mean, they're very clear about that. There was a big story in Jacobin magazine about their intent to destroy the Democratic Party. And as you noted earlier, most Democrats are unaware of this. They don't think it's, they can't conceive of anyone believing the kinds of wacky things that we were talking about, even though they do. And they're not aware of how destructive these people are. And I think the evidence is pretty clear. If you look at what happened in New York where Congressman Espayat, who was the first undocumented immigrant ever elected to Congress, he was the chair of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus, he had endorsed Zoran Mondami for mayor, he faced a DSA challenger and lost. And in part because he just didn't see any of this coming. Diana DeGette, a 15 term congresswoman from Denver, same situation. Now, some of this was because there was a generational shift. As you noted earlier. A lot of voters are super angry about a lot of things, and who can blame them? But some of it is because they didn't see the DSA for what it was. And our effort is going to be to change that.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean, one of the things that, you know, I hear from people say, well, you know, people are angry and they want to try something different. And my response is, okay, it's one thing to be angry, it's another thing to, you know, decide to throw a tantrum and break things. How about being angry and actually getting to work and try to block what's going on. And just before we get into some of this stuff, the main motivation of efforts like this is to win elections, right? I mean, there are people who say, well, you're, you're undermining all of this. It's like you want to win elections, you want to elect Democrats. And when it comes to fighting Trump, I find this weird that people decide we're gonna go with the DSA candidate because we wanna fight Trump. And when in fact, Dan Goldman was one of the fiercest critics of Donald Trump in Congress and DSA went after him and defeated him. Not to mention that many of the things that Donald Trump is doing, like abandoning Ukraine, abandoning the world, is, you know, part of the DSA agenda. But let me, you know, there's been a lot of pushback. Boy, you are get, you are taking a lot of flack for doing this, aren't you, Matt?

[Matt Bennett]

We really are.

[Interviewer (CNN Kaitlan Collins)]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I do wonder, you know, people are asking me, like, how did you know, how do various things happen? And there seems to be, and I'm going to get to Robert Reich in a moment, but there also seems to be a reluctance on the part of many mainstream normie Democrats to do what you're doing to call out the left. They're worried about antagonizing the online left. They're worried about antagonizing the influencers. Right. They're worried about antagonizing some of those elite special interest groups. And so there's kind of let's keep our heads down and let's not, let's not call this what it is. I mean, do you just sort of sense a reluctance on the part of centrists and moderates and center left folks to do what you're doing?

[Matt Bennett]

Without a doubt. And as you're about to read, we're getting enormous amount of criticism from a bunch of those folks, but I think they're making a category error here. First of all, if you look at the places where the DDSA is actually one, like in those New York districts, one of which is nicknamed the Commie Corridor, if you look even more close. First of all, those were very low turnout June primaries. Only 60,000 people voted in those two primaries, which was much lower than most primaries this cycle. And the precincts where the DSA candidates won tend to be very white and very highly educated. I mean, literally the precincts around Columbia University, which helped to nominate via Chevalier, who is a PhD candidate at Columbia, those were the precincts that went for her. The precincts that went for her opponent, Espaillat tended to be more non college voters and more voters of color. So the people that they purport to represent actually do not support the dsa. And the other thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the people that were voting for these candidates are doing so not because they support the DSA platform. They don't even know that it exists. They're doing it because they want somebody younger, somebody more polygenic, somebody more aggressive.

[Charlie Sykes]

Somebody different.

[Matt Bennett]

Yeah, different. And look, I get that. I mean, being younger and aggressive is good. We want our candidates to be better at social media. We want there to be a generational change in Congress which is certainly necessary. What we don't want is to nominate fruitcakes who can't possibly win like Frances at home.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, that is probably. Well. And by the way, the vote patterns have been consistent that the DSA candidates or the far left candidates do not do well among working class voters. They do not do well among African American voters or rural voters. In fact, the reason that David Crowley beat Francesca Hong is he did very, very well in rural areas, did very well in the African American community, whereas her vote was really concentrated in the university towns and the I want to talk to you about the US Deal with Iran and the COVID look. Obviously everyone, including me, has lots of opinions about this deal, but if you also want to get down to the facts of the story rather than getting lost in the hype of the headlines, there's an app and a website that can help you do that. It's called Ground News and they have great tools to help you avoid getting caught in a bias bubble and avoid blind spots. For each story, they'll show you how the left, right and the center covered it. The Nobel Peace center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview. Take for example this story, a judge denied Joe Biden's bid to block release of transcripts linked to a special counsel inquiry. On the left you'll see headlines like US Judge Rejects Joe Biden's Lawsuit Asking to withhold Memoir Recordings and on the right you'll see headlines like what is the former President trying to hide? But then you can go to each source and see who's funding them and their factuality rating that shows how subjective or objective the source is. Ground News also has a blind spot feed that shows stories disproportionately covered by either side of the media. So if you want access to stories you may otherwise never see and the necessary context to make up your own mind, visit groundnews.com tc to get 40% off their unlimited access. That's groundnews.com tc so they know that I sent you. I believe that if you like this podcast and what we do here, you'll like their mission. Visit groundnews.com tc today. Look, if you're like me, you're thinking a lot more about what you wear day to day and are looking for pieces that feel easy, comfortable and still look put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. Quince has been my go to. Their fabrics feel elevated, their fits are clean, and everything just works without needing to overthink it. And I definitely do not want to overthink what I wear every day. Well, I have to tell you that Quince has really changed how I get dressed this summer. I mean, they're gorgeous linen shirts that I frankly just, you know, keep grabbing without thinking and and the T shirt that I end up wearing more than pretty much everything else. Or look a lot of their stuff just works with everything. Stop over complicating your wardrobe. You don't need a closet full of options, you need a few pieces that actually work. So upgrade your everyday Download the Quints app for Apple exclusive offers or go to quince.com contrary get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com contrary. Leads okay, so let's get to Robert Reich because you know I'm going to give you a chance to push back. He wrote a piece he obviously opposes what you are doing, calls it the moronic bullshit of the third Way. There is no middle between neo fascist corporatism and democracy. And then he quotes the president of your organization, Jonathan Cowan, as saying we are preparing for the next war that is coming the election. And he describes it as the statements seem as belligerent as Pete Hegseth on a bad hair day. He says, I find it deeply troubling that faux centrist groups are declaring war on progressives in the pages of the New York Times without the Times revealing who they really are. And then he goes through basically saying you get funding from corporate interests though, therefore your corporatist sort of an attack on the source. So what is your response to this? That there is no middle between neo fascist corporatism and democracy?

[Matt Bennett]

Well, first of all, that isn't what we're seeking at all. But let me start with the fact that he attacks us for being too aggressive in an essay titled the Moronic Bullshit of Third Way. So I don't know, that seems pretty aggressive to me. Second, I served in the Clinton administration with Robert Reich, so I'm not sure where he gets off accusing us of being neoliberal shills or guy that served in the Cabinet of Bill Clinton. But I think in answer to his two central charges, I'll just say this. First of all, no one at Third Way or in the center left is seeking a middle ground between via Chevalier and Donald Trump. That isn't what modern centrism is about. What moderates and center left people want to acknowledge is that we, the Democrats, keep losing the battle for reasonableness to Donald Trump, which is a feat that is I don't know how we've achieved it, but somehow we did it twice. If you look at the exit polls from 2024, more voters thought that Harris was the extreme candidate than thought that of Trump, which is just an astonishing thing. And coming out of 2024, for a brief moment, there was acknowledgement throughout the party that we'd gone too far left. Her own campaign chair said that she was suffering from a caricature, that she was dangerously liberal. And that is what voters thought of Democrats then and what too many swing voters think of Democrats now. And feeding that by nominating or even giving any air cover to the Democratic Socialist is just insane in our view. So that's number one. Number two is we are constantly attacked as being corporate shills doing the bidding of our donors.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes.

[Matt Bennett]

I don't know why people attack our motives. Our donors have absolutely nothing to do with our political positions. Literally nothing. Moreover, the vast. The majority of our revenue comes from foundations. The types of foundations, Hewlett, Gates, et cetera. That fund basically everybody in the NGO community. And finally, this notion that we're the only ones doing the bidding of our donors belies the fact that donors support the work of everybody. In politics, you can't do the work of a nonprofit without donors. That is the business model. So it's offensive, it's stupid, and it's just wrong.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's also lazy. And this is a real problem, I think, of American political discourse is that rather than confronting an argument, you engage in ad hominem arguments. Okay, so. So if you're wrong about the dsa, let's talk about where you are wrong about it, as opposed to. I'm going to attack you as corporatist. And there are these shorthands that again, I see over and over and over again, you know, establishment corporatists, as if suddenly, as if somehow that means that. I mean, that utterly discredits in terms of like, are you the establishment? Who is the establishment? I really was watching this. The establishment versus the progressives. And first of all, I'm not sure that that Francesca Hong in Wisconsin was a progressive, but who actually is the establishment in the Democratic Party right now? Can you give me some sense of what that. Because that's become the big boogeyman, right?

[Matt Bennett]

It has.

[Charlie Sykes]

If you can run against the establishment, then you get like a get out of jail free card. You can take any crazy position, apparently.

[Matt Bennett]

Yeah, look, I mean, the establishment includes Hakeem Jeffries, who is almost certain to be the first black speaker of the House. So, you know, I'm proud to be aligned with him. The establishment includes people that have been working to elect Democrats for their whole careers, as we established at the top. I've been doing this for 40 years. So am I part of the establishment? I guess so. I work in Washington I've worked in Democratic politics a long time. I want to elect Democrats. My entire purpose in life is electing Democrats and making the world better for people who struggle. I will, though, own the fact that people like me who have served, who served in the Clinton administration, who worked closely with the Obama and Biden administrations, we have failed to make life better for enough people. There is no question. And voters are right to be angry that we have not made enough change. There is no doubt about that. And I would say that the rise of the far left in this cycle indicates that we have not done a good enough job of offering an alternative vision. But if you look at the overwhelming percentage of contested primaries, moderates, mainstream candidates, people that we support, are doing a hell of a lot better in most places than the far left is.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I think that one of the other things that we saw out of Wisconsin was that while economic populism may be a winning issue for some Democrats, the what AOC calls woke one is not on some of these culture issue things. You know, it's one thing to say, you know, I want, you know, expanded Medicare. Okay, that's, that's, that's not necessarily a deal breaker for a lot of voters. Banning Thanksgiving, I think probably would be. So how do you disaggregate the Democrats problems with economic issues from their problem with the culture war issues? You know, Fareed Zachariah had a piece recently that made the point that the Democrats, you know, when they want to appeal to the, you know, want to appeal to the left, they'll move left on economic issues, but they're afraid to break with them on some of these culture issues. And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about the whole Kamala Harris thing, you know, why she was regarded as more extreme. Here in the state of Wisconsin, we had, it felt like $100 million in ads running in 2024 on one issue that Kamala Harris supported. Taxpayer sex change operations for transgender prisons, people who were criminals who were in prison, who wanted to change their gender. And the Trump campaign just pounded that and pounded that and pounded that. And I got fed that. I got. That was fed back to me over and over and over again. So. So people should never underestimate how effectively MAGA will weaponize the most extreme, eccentric ideas out there.

[Matt Bennett]

Without a doubt. I mean, she's for they them, he's for you. One of the most effective taglines of all time. And you're right, and Zakaria is right, that one of the problems that our party faces and One of the reasons that that Trump was able to win that battle for reasonableness, despite being the most unreasonable person in the history of American politics, is that Democrats are seen as outside the mainstream on some core issues that go to values, not to economic necessity. And we cannot be seen as the party of open borders, which we were seen as in 2024, because the Biden administration basically had an open border policy for two and a half years. The thing that makes a moderate is somebody that can recognize that there are shades of gray that you don't see black and white. So we believe strongly that we need secure borders, and we believe strongly that this administration is treating undocumented immigrants barbarically and inhumanely. And that must change. You can believe both things at the same time. We believe that we need strong enforcement of the law and we need prisons and we need to lock up criminals and, and we also believe that you need to take steps to try to address crime in the ways that some of the left believes. So you can have both of those ideas. But you've got to recognize that most voters, at least most swing voters, the plurality of the electorate which identifies themselves as moderate, see shades of gray, where extremists on both sides see black and white. And that is especially true on culture.

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[Charlie Sykes]

I think one of the most important things, if you're actually trying to have, you know, a conversation with, with a voter, if you actually want to persuade someone to, you know, vote for you. And again, there's a school of thought that says that, that we shouldn't engage in persuasion at all, right? That all you have to do is gin up your own base. You don't actually need to persuade, which I don't think makes any mathematical sense when you Think about, you know, how you determine control of Congress and the presidency. But what I think that there are three key things that when you're talking to a voter, that you have to convince that voter that you are not crazy. You have to convince that voter that you share their values, basic values. And once you establish common ground, you can go a lot of places in terms of politics and, you know, in that same category, not crazy, share their values. That you have to convince voters that you do not despise them or look down on them. And these are the key things is like they want to know, are you a normal, non crazy person? Do you share my values and do you treat me with respect? And those things are not always present, are they?

[Matt Bennett]

No.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, I think that. Again, I'm coming back to what happened in Wisconsin, because I think you didn't check those boxes and you saw what happened.

[Matt Bennett]

Exactly. That is precisely the problem. And it's been the problem. When Democrats have lost, really, in the entire modern era, we have communicated to voters that either that we're nuts, we don't share their values, or we think they are bigoted and stupid. And if you communicate any of those three things, you're going to lose. But if you communicate to people that we are sane, that we recognize that there are shades of gray, we may not agree on everything precisely, but we respect them and we respect their values, then they are willing to have conversations about the precise contours of public policy, but they're not willing to have that conversation. If you check any of the three boxes that you just laid out, and Hong certainly did. Whereas David Crowley, who is a good, solid Democrat, he's probably slightly to my left, but, you know, I'm super happy that he won the nomination. I really hope he wins the election. That's the kind of guy that they're looking for, somebody who is gonna respect their values and doesn't seem like he's a nutcase.

[Charlie Sykes]

So I wanna ask you about something else that's going on. There's all this attention on the dsa, and you're gonna bring more attention to it. But there's another story happening out there. I wanna get your take on it. The what I've described as sort of the independent surge that in the Senate races in Idaho, I'm gonna see if I can get these. Idaho, South Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, maybe Montana. Democrats have actually dropped out of the race and thrown their support behind Independents who are running centrist campaigns. These are deep red states. And apparently the thinking is, okay, the Democratic brand is sort of toxic. So let's create a unity ticket where we are going to run against Republicans. With an independent in Nebraska, it almost worked in the last cycle. Again, long shots. You're also seeing kind of unity tickets in Arizona where the incumbent Democratic governor Katie Hobbs has chosen a former Republican mayor of Mesa, Arizona as her running mate. In Florida, former Republican congressman fellow never Trumper, David Jolly looks like he's on track to be the Democratic nominee and he has chosen a very, very prominent Democrat to be his running mate. So, you know, while we're seeing this sort of radical shift to the left that's getting all of the hype, this is an interesting phenomenon. I want to get your take on this. The number of centrist independents that are running and the unity tickets that you're seeing in places like Arizona and Florida. Is this something that you encourage?

[Matt Bennett]

For sure. I mean, let me just start by lamenting the fact that this is necessary in places like Montana and South Dakota, where we had Democratic Sen. Pretty recently, along with Indiana, Louisiana, Arkansas, Tennessee, a whole bunch of places where it's unimaginable to elect a Democrat to the Senate at the moment, before times. Yeah, it's just a tragedy that the Democratic brand has become so toxic in those places that anyone, no matter how reasonable they are with a D next to their name, has literally no hope of winning a federal election. You can occasionally win a governor's race, but you can't win a congressional race. And. And so that's terrible, but we have to live in the real world, and that's the world we're in. Unfortunately, in Montana, the Democrat refused to get out of the race, and so she's gonna be on the ticket. But in all these other places, as you say, Democrats have done the right thing and have thrown their support behind either former Republicans or Independents who do have a chance of winning. They're all somewhat long shots, but they're not ruled out by any stretch. And they're gonna require Republicans to spend money. And that's really important. We have to be as strategic as we possibly can be. And there is no question in my mind that having an Independent in those seats is a billion times better than having a MAGA Republican who's loyal to Trump.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, it's interesting. I spent some time actually looking through some of the independent campaigns, and there is a theme that runs through them, which is that I'm one of you going back to this, I share your values. So there's one candidate who says, I'm gonna defend second Amendment rights hard to imag Democrats in the east coast doing that. You know, I am for securing the border. You know, I want, you know, I want, you know, you know, common sense regulations and those are the kinds of, you can just see what they're doing is they're saying, you know, I am one of you. I understand Idaho's problems. I am, you know, you know, you know, share your values. I understand in Iowa as well, Democrat now Democrats are running, you know, those kinds of campaigns. And I guess I was thinking, you know, political parties right now the Democrats have two different paths. In Hungary, the opposition to Viktor Orban created the unity ticket, the big tent, sort of center right, center left. They went with a Conservative and they won. They won big. They ousted Viktor Orban. Another alternative would be what the British Labour Party did several decades ago when they made Jeremy Corbyn their leader and then spent years and years and years in the political wilderness. Jeremy Corbyn being kind of the, you know, far left democratic socialist candidate and it was disastrous for the British Labor Party. So again, Democrats ought to look at different models here. What worked to get rid of Viktor Orban, what failed to win you elections in other countries? Moving far left is not necessarily the answer 100%.

[Matt Bennett]

I mean, Jeremy Corbyn is the ghost of Christmas past for us. I mean, we have got to be clear about that and we cannot go that direction. It's one of the reasons that we're so alarmed about the DSA and to your point that we're so encouraged about making common cause with people like you, you know, people who believe in democracy, who are appalled by the turn the Republicans have taken and have decided in a two party system that they only the option is either to be independent or to essentially be Democrats. And we have got to make common cause with those people. And I want to just land this point very clearly. The fight here is against the MAGA forces that are trying to destroy the country. One of the distortions in the Reich piece and others is that we somehow don't think that that's the important thing. The reason that we launched this campaign against the DSA is so that we can beat the MAGA Republicans because they would make it harder to do so. If we had nominated Hong in your home state, we'd have a Republican governor and that would be a catastrophe. So that is why we are doing this. And making common cause with people in the center right is vital to being able to do that.

[Charlie Sykes]

What about the people who say though, that what you're doing is divisive, that it will divide the party. I mean, we're seeing a really divided Democratic Party in Michigan. I mean, maybe they'll patch things up. But when you have the elected liberal Democratic Attorney General of the state of Michigan saying that she's afraid to go to the Democratic Party Convention because she fears for her safety, she doesn't want to be booed. She doesn't want to be. How do you. How do you answer the charges that what you are doing is dividing the party?

[Matt Bennett]

We don't regard the DSA as members of the party. These are people that want to come in and destroy our party, and they're doing great damage to our party. In real time, we are not attacking liberal Democrats. We work with liberal Democrats all the time. We hope that Abdul El Sayed wins the election in the Senate in Michigan, even though he is very far to our left. And we're delighted that he's beginning to make some moves towards the mainstream by putting some daylight between himself and Hasan Piker, by being clear about Israel's right to exist, that kind of thing. So we're not the divisive ones. The divisive ones are the ones that are making the Attorney General in Michigan afraid for her personal safety. The divisive ones. And I have to say, El Sayed himself was the guy that wanted to put a Democratic senator's head on a spike. Metaphorically. But, you know, that seemed pretty divisive to me. And while John Fetterman can be annoying, we definitely need him in the party. So we don't believe that taking on the DSA in any way is divisive. We believe it is fundamental to helping Democrats win.

[Francesca Hong]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I would urge people to. And I assume this is part of your project. I would urge people to look at some of the videos of recent interviews of DSA leaders, including the one with David Remick. It's one of those things where when they're asked to explain their positions, you really get a sense that, okay, maybe this was not who I thought they were. You know, the one leader who was basically saying, yeah, we're gonna totally abandon Ukraine. We're not gonna support Ukraine. There was another one, another prominent DSA spokesman who I think was it a Los Angeles radio TV station, was asked, okay, if you want to abolish the police and prisons, what happens if my daughter is raped and murdered? Is there anyone who will investigate that crime and hold anyone accountable? And it was like watching a deer be caught in the headlight. Because apparently the kryptonite for a lot of these folks is actually being confronted outside of their own bubbles with the implications of their ideas, which often seem very, very half baked when they are challenged. Have you noticed that?

[Matt Bennett]

Indeed they do. And I think it's important also to note that, like, sometimes their ideas have been put into practice to terrible effect. I mean, you know, AOC is talking about how woke one was crazy and it was pretty crazy. I mean, chez Boudin, the then San Francisco DA essentially stopped enforcing the law against shoplifting and loitering and San Francisco basically fell apart. The city became a catastrophe and the voters of that city, who were very liberal, recalled him. And a similar thing happened in Portland, Oregon when they decriminalized drugs, which they later had to recriminalize because things got so bad. So, so when even the slightly less insane versions of these ideas are put into practice, terrible things happen. And even Blue City voters recognize it.

[Charlie Sykes]

And I think that, you know, Democrats, if they want to win elections, need to make it very, very clear, separate themselves from those policies that, you know, I am this kind of a Democrat. I am not that kind of a Democrat, no matter what MAGA says about me. Matt Bennett, thank you so much for all of your time and your insight on a rather extraordinary day in American politics. Great talking with you.

[Matt Bennett]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Charlie Sykes]

And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. You know why we do this? Because we need to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. And I have to say that was my headline in my newsletter yesterday about Wisconsin. Hey, who knew? Turns out that we're not the crazy ones after all. Thanks.

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[Charlie Sykes]

acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show we recommend hey, what's up you guys?

[Giro Rafuolo]

It's Giro Rafuolo, your host of the Comment Section podcast. Each week I am joined by a special guest to dive deep into all things comedy, pop culture takes and the highs and lows of the Internet Mama. Watch new episodes of the Comment section Every Wednesday on YouTube and listen wherever you get your podcast.

[Charlie Sykes]

ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast combination.