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- [00:00]
Charlie Sykes
Foreign. Welcome to the weekend edition of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charl A. Sykes, joined by the legendary Jim Acosta, longtime CNN anchor who is now living the dream on Substack. Like, like most of us. So thanks for joining me, Jim. I appreciate it very much.
- [00:26]
Jim Acosta
You bet.
- [00:27]
Charlie Sykes
You know, when we look back on any of these weeks, I would say this week, but any of these weeks, it's always hard to remember what was the most important, what was significant. You put out a piece on Friday that I thought connected a lot of the dots. And I want to talk about this. It is this piece on Substack. The signal that Trump is sending. Trump wants fear, but he is starting to show some. So let's just start with the signal that Trump is sending that Donald Trump really does want people to be afraid. And you start off with the shameless photo op, even by Trumpian standards. This is Kristi Noem, maybe photoshopped in front of these alleged Venezuelan gang members in El Salvador. So let's, let's talk about that because the performative cruelty continues to be very much the point for these folks. So let's talk about, let's start with that photo op and why you decided to lead with it.
- [01:30]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, Charlie, you've observed this for a while. I've observed this for a while. You know, a lot of the people who work for Trump, you know, they, they perform as sort of his mini me's. They want to outdo one another. And maybe Kristi Noem was feeling a little left out because she wasn't, I don't think she was in the group chat on the Houthi rebels. And so she had this very performative stunt down in El Salvador. We think she was in the El Salvador, in prison where they're holding these Venezuelan migrants. And, you know, I thought it was the height of shamelessness. I mean, you know, the memes were coming in fast and furious wondering, you know, where the cages that held the puppies were. But, you know, she obviously is trying to send a message, and it's the same message that a lot of people in Trump's cabinet and Trump himself want to send. And that is of fear. When you put out a press release that says, we're taking over the Smithsonian, we're going to historically cleanse the Smithsonian, we're going to take over the Kennedy center, we're going to fire tens of thousands of federal employees, send senior citizens scrambling down to their local Social Security Administration office. He's trying to send the message that he is in charge that the only thing you have to fear is Trump himself. But what we're starting to see, and you and I can talk about this, Charlie, is that they're starting to, you know, know, signal some fear on their part. And, you know, there are lots of examples from that Pennsylvania state Senate race to pulling Elise Stefanik from her nomination to the United nations and so on.
- [03:04]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's, you know, your point, though, the fear signal is, has been very, very successful so far, though, before we get to all that, I mean, you point out, you know, that, you know, from Trump, if you're a judge, you try to block my actions, I will seek your impeachment. You know, borders are, Tom Homan, if you're a city official, you don't, I'm going to come after you, Elon Musk, if you're a federal employee, your job's not safe. You know, again and again and again, going after the media, going after law firms, going after, you know, universities. And up until now, you know, let's be honest about it, it's been incredibly successful in getting people to bend the knee. He can look around. I mean, he could sit in the Oval Office and say, you know, I have some of the biggest law firms in America coming and kissing my ring. I have ab and CBS may be settling lawsuits against me. I brought Columbia University to its knees. I have destroyed any opposition in the Republican Party. So you take a somewhat more optimistic view, and I don't want to misquote you here, that don't be afraid because America is unbreakable. And I guess that's the key question, Jim. Is America unbreakable? We've always thought it was unbreakable, but a lot of things seem to be breaking right now.
- [04:24]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, you know, you hear a lot about Trump derangement syndrome, Charlie. I've always been worried more about Trump depression syndrome. And honestly, I think people, I think, got too down in the dumps. And yes, Trump has dictator envy. He wants to create the atmosphere that he is presiding over something of a dictatorship in this country. He is trying to use the mechanisms of the federal government, the executive branch, to put that out there. And there's, there's no question about it. I do not want to come across as minimizing or diminishing this whatsoever when they're pulling people off the streets, college students off the streets. Yes. They may not be U.S. citizens and, and sending them to detention facilities in Louisiana primarily. I mean, let's just face it, because they were pro Palestinian activists. And I'm not going to wade into all of that.
- [05:14]
Charlie Sykes
But. Right.
- [05:15]
Jim Acosta
You know, they're certainly trying to communicate fear. They want people to be afraid. I had a conversation with Randy Weingarten of the American Federation of Teachers the other day. You know, there we were talking about their efforts to shut down the Department of Education. And, you know, yes, Randy said that's causing a lot of fear and panic inside public education. But she also says, I'll see you in court. And I think that's what is taking place right now. There is a push, pushback that is mobilizing. People were definitely back on their heels, there's no question about it, during the interregnum period between the election and the inauguration and the first few weeks of this administration. But the results are starting to come in and the pushback is having some early sign. There are some green shoots, I think, of this pushback.
- [06:00]
Charlie Sykes
Let's talk about the green shoot. Okay, we need these green shoots because it has felt as if it's been scorched earth between January 20th and now. So the green shoots. You mentioned an election result in Pennsylvania, a deep red state Senate seat flipped one narrowly by the Democrats. Obviously a shock to maga and real nervousness about a special election in Florida on Tuesday, a plus 30 Republican district that may be, you know, in, in play. And, and as a sign of that panic, Donald Trump unceremoniously dumps Elise Stefanik. So let's just talk about some of those green shoots that you're saying here. By the way, you know, thoughts and prayers for Elise. I mean, has anyone sucked up as hard as Elise Stefanik to get that job? And she was right there. She probably had the drapes all picked out of the UN Headquarters. And they basically say, no, we want you back on the backbench because we need your vote.
- [06:58]
Jim Acosta
I mean, ooh, that's got a sting. Yeah, put some butter on it. You know, thoughts and prayers, like you said. I mean, you know, here's the thing. To me, when they do something like that, and you, Charlie, you and I both observe this. A lot of people observe this when he was pulling Matt Gaetz out of the House of Representatives and Michael Waltz and Lisa Phonic with that slim margin, I mean, a lot of folks were saying, what in the hell are they doing? I mean, isn't there kind of a math, people? Math, Sort of a math. There's a stupidity thing going on here that is sort of mind boggling. And this has come to pass. And, you know, some of this is arrogance on Trump's part. It's his recklessness. It's his, you know, he's his own worst enemy. As much as he likes to call other people the enemy, he's his own worst enemy. But absolutely, there's no question about it when they, that is almost akin to a member of the House of Representatives pulling a fire alarm. I won't mention, mention any names, you know, pulling back that nomination of Elise Stefanik. There is a fire alarm has gone off over at the White House. They're seeing these rallies, Bernie and aoc you know, we haven't seen this in Sonny and Cher. And it is, it is something else that we're seeing right now. These town halls, these rallies. People are waking up. I'm not, I'm not trying to say that it's all ice cream and cookies right now. There's no question what he is doing is, is just dastardly on a whole slew of, you know, various topics. But there, there are signs that things are starting to turn around. I mean, that, that Pennsylvania state Senate race, my goodness, a plus 15 district for Trump, Elon Musk dumping in all of this money into the, into a Wisconsin, you know, Charlie, your home turf state supreme court race. He's handing out million dollar checks. I mean, those are signs of desperation, not confidence.
- [08:50]
Charlie Sykes
No, let's just talk about this Wisconsin race because I put out my newsletter on Friday saying, you know, this is the most important election in America, being in Wisconsin. Again, not just pure chauvinism, because clearly Elon Musk thinks that this election now is a referendum on Elon Musk and he's not wrong. I mean, to put this in some perspective, $100 million for one judicial race in Wisconsin. We thought the world had lost its mind a couple of years ago when there was, I think it was $50 million spent on a state supreme court seat. And this is now double that he has put in, it looks now more than $20 million. He's going to be here on Sunday and he's going to be handing out more million dollar checks. If he loses in Wisconsin, I think it's going to have real blowback because it will be that moment of vulnerability. And the problem is, is that if you have a campaign of fear and you know, I am the biggest dick on, you know, on the block, the moment that you lose that, it's bad. On the other hand, if he wins, it will really reinforce his position as the kingmaker and the enforcer for MAGA world. So this is big either way, I think.
- [10:04]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, there, no, there's a lot Riding on it. There's no question about it. And you know, victory has a thousand fathers defeat as an orphan or something along those line. And, you know, if, and maybe that orphan will be Elon Musk come next week. You know, I think that people understand the stakes. You know, I was talking with Harry Dunn the other day and he went up to Wisconsin to lend a hand on behalf of the Democratic candidate there. And you know, it just goes to show you there is sort of a all hands on deck mentality, whereas I think a month or two ago that just wasn't. I mean, people were sort of still in the fetal position at that point. I remember talking to, you know, Harry and Fanon and some of those guys, and they were still completely pissed off. And, and these guys now have a sense of mission that is just absolutely inspiring. And I, you just get that sense that that's happening in a lot of different places right now. And so, you know, Elon Musk is going to dump a lot of money into it. I think you, you could also write, Charlie, let's say the Republicans are successful on Tuesday. I think the story could also be written that it's another example of the impact of Citizens United in this country. I mean, how, how in the hell, I mean, can somebody explain to me and draw a picture of how it is legal to hold a lottery and hand out million dollar checks to people for voting? I, I mean, to me, I just don't.
- [11:30]
Charlie Sykes
You know, that's what my wife was saying. How can this possibly be legal? I mean, we're old enough to remember. You remember in Ben and Georgia when they were talking about banning handing out food and water to people standing in line and there's Elon Musk on stage handing out million dollar checks. It's like, holy shit. Well, what's also interesting is the strategy, which is not very subtle. Every single piece of literature I get, and I get multiple pieces of literature in my house, here in Mequon, every single piece shows the conservative candidate, Brad Shummel, who was running for this nonpartisan judicial seat. Pictures him with Donald Trump. Donald Trump is on every single piece of literature. And they're making it as you need to support and protect Donald Trump's agenda. So clearly they're aiming to get those low propensity Trump voters, the ones who don't often vote in these low turnout elections, the ones who turned out in November. Now, whether that will work, we don't know. But I mean, I certainly remember I've been involved in these judicial elections for more than 20 years. And they used to be very, very low turnout elections. And therefore, that's why they were dominated by conservatives, because they turned out Democrats didn't. That has flipped around. But the turnout is going to be extraordinary. And we'll save the analysis for after that. I want to get. There's so many things that are going on here. The attack on civil liberties, the deportation campaign that's being waged, Marco Rubio making it clear that some of these foreign students are being arrested for writing op ed pieces. I mean, these are really disturbing cases. I mean, I, you know, early on I thought, okay, this is the fight that Donald Trump wants. He wants to, you know, have his mass deportation focusing on Venezuelan gang members. And now we're finding out that a lot of these people who are being snatched up on the streets may not be gang members and never got due process. And we are starting to hear from, even from some conservative legal folks saying, you know, you do have to have due process. This is getting a little disturbing.
- [13:32]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. I mean, Donald Trump is the king of due process. I mean, you know, how much due process did Donald Trump. Donald Trump got more due process than O.J. simpson, I think. I mean, it's kind of unreal. And the way he's denying due process to these migrants is, is astounding. And apparently he's gone again to the Supreme Court to rule on the Alien Enemies act and whether or not he can use the Alien Enemies Acted to do these deportations. I mean, he, it's almost as though he, he sees Chief Justice John Roberts as his personal fixer. He's some, he's somehow become Roy Cohn or Michael Cohen. I mean, what the hell is going on here? I mean, anytime Trump is in a jam, Supreme Court, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty unbelievable. And to me, to get to the seriousness of what you just.
- [14:24]
Charlie Sykes
Well, he may be disappointed.
- [14:26]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. To get to the serious. I mean, we're living in a country right now where masked people. I mean, you look at the case of the Tufts University doctoral student who was picked up the other day, masked DHS officers, they pull somebody off the street. And, you know, there was, there was eyewitness video. And in one of the pieces of eyewitness video, somebody yells out, is this a kidnapping? I mean, you know, this is the kind of chilling stuff that is going on right now. And in the Venezuelan migrant case, and I believe in this Tufts University doctoral student case, the judges handling those cases have said, slow down, you're going too fast. There's due process. We need you to show some evidence backing what you were doing. And they, they, they thumbed their noses at these judges and did it anyway. And so there is a constitutional crisis that is brewing in this country between the executive and judicial branch. You saw Justice Roberts put out that op ed or whatever it was statement the other day saying you can't impeach judges because you don't like what they're doing. Trump doesn't give a crap about that. He doesn't give a shit about that. He wants the Supreme Court to do his bidding. And, you know, that part is scary. I mean, I'm not going to, you know, you can't put lipstick on that pig. There's no question about it. He is testing every boundary that they can think of. They're almost behind closed doors at the White House trying to think of what can we test next.
- [15:56]
Charlie Sykes
They are. And every time they get away with something, I think it emboldens them to do more. You know, after reading your piece, you know, about the. He wants everyone to be afraid. You know, the big question that we have now is, is what he's doing. Will he actually intimidate the Supreme Court? Will he actually intimidate a majority saying, we don't want to take him on, we don't want to put ourselves in this crosshair? Or will you? Or is he engendering pushback? I mean, you could make a case either way right now. John Roberts issuing that statement was pushing back. On the other hand, do they really want to take on the administration that's made it clear that it's not going to back away from any fight and it will punish you in any way. This is why the attack on the law firms. And I don't know if this is the sexiest issue, but this is the one that disturbs me the most. Going after the law firms, one big law firm after another, because they're associated with someone Trump doesn't like because they have been involved in litigation. And that was shocking. That's one thing I didn't see. I told Anne Applebaum that earlier this week. I didn't see that coming, but I really didn't see the big law firms then caving in and cutting deals. Now Block and Jenner is pushing back, is doing it. But all of this is in play right now to see, as you point out, he wants people to be afraid. He's had tremendous success. Is there a point at which people are going to draw that line and say no more? And I think that will have an effect on the Courts as well.
- [17:23]
Jim Acosta
I agree. And I think that these, these law firms need to tell Trump to go to hell. I mean, honestly, what.
- [17:29]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [17:29]
Jim Acosta
What is going on? And they're supposed to believe in the rule of law. And you have the law firm Perkins Coie, I believe it was last week.
- [17:39]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [17:40]
Jim Acosta
You know, pay the, pay the Trump intimidation toll booth.
- [17:43]
Charlie Sykes
No, no, no. They know Perkins Coie is fighting back. They're the ones who paid the dingel.
- [17:50]
Jim Acosta
Weiss. Paul Weiss is the one. Sorry, I was up until one in the morning with my son watching March Madness. Yeah, Paul Weiss is the one that threw, that threw the token into the Trump intimidation toll booth. And you know, to me, it is, it's absolutely ridiculous. I was talking with a group of attorneys last weekend and who work for prominent law firms in D.C. and they were all shaking their heads and saying, you know, they just made life more difficult for the rest of us. Because now he's just going to go right one by one. If you have an attorney on, on staff there as a partner or whatever who worked on one of these Trump cases in the past, he. They're going to come after you. There's just no question about it. Again, somebody needs to ask the question, how is any of this legal? And, and all of this falls into the lap.
- [18:36]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, all the time.
- [18:37]
Jim Acosta
Roberts, so many something, honestly, Chief Justice John Roberts, I hope he's doing some soul searching here after that immunity decision, because to me, the immunity decision that was passed down was, was what has emboldened Trump to this level. I don't think he would be attempting to do the things he would do he's doing right now if it were not for that decision. I think it clearly gave him the green light to try to push boundaries in every direction that he can possibly do well.
- [19:09]
Charlie Sykes
And this is the frightening thing because I can certainly imagine they're sitting around the Oval Office, as you were just describing, and Stephen Miller comes up with one crackpot idea after another. There's no one in that room who says, Mr. President, that would be illegal. We could get in trouble for that. No one is saying that. They got rid of a lot of the lawyers who would tell people in the military and the agencies, you can't do that. That would be violating the Constitution. So this is a dangerous moment. So I want to come back to this, maybe in a few minutes. But the big story of the week, no question about it, as we look back on last week, I mean, the big story had to be signal gate this amazing story that gets more amazing the more you Think about it. The fact they launched this, this attack on the Houthis and they had Jeffrey Goldberg from the Atlantic listening into it. Give me your sense of does this. Okay, I feel we've had this conversation, you know, a million times over the last 10 years. Is this going to make a difference? Will this one have, have legs? There are some, you know, early indications that based on the polls and some of the congressional reaction that this was just too stupid. It was just too fucked up to defend. What do you think?
- [20:23]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, this was, you know, an outtake from Burn After Reading. You know, I mean, this, you know, it's just Brad. Where Brad Pitt and George Clooney in all of this. I just think that, you know, it, to me, it's one of the reasons why there should be a little bit of hope. You know, these guys, you know, they're not sending their best. I think somebody has observed and, you know, it's hard to be afraid of what's going on right now. And I'm, you know, again, I'm not trying to diminish some of the.
- [20:59]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [20:59]
Jim Acosta
Crackpot that he's doing, but it's hard to be, you know, totally in the fetal position, you know, fearing every thing that comes out of this White House when you're on your phone in your own group chats with your friends, laughing at these memes that are coming through of, you know, you know, this, that, and the other thing, you know, Hegseth and Mike Waltz and so on. And some of these guys, you know, Marco Rubio is supposed to be a serious guy. John Ratcliffe, I think to some extent is a serious guy. I mean, yes, you could say they sold their souls and Mike Waltz, but didn't. Why didn't one of these guys say, hey, should we be doing this on a group chat? You know, how about we reconvene in the Situation Room? I covered the White House during the Obama administration, the Trump administration. They have the Situation Room, they have skiffs, they have the ability to, you know, have these kinds of conversations in a secure setting. The cavalier way that they went about in doing this to me just smacks of, of just amateur hour. And, you know, first among them would be Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense. I mean, to me, for somebody who was at his confirmation hearing, puffing out his chest, talking about how there should be merit based appointments and so on at the Pentagon, and then he is the one doing this sort of thing. It's just, it just stinks to high heaven. And, you know, you have to wonder whether or not the Republicans are going to find the guts to stand up to this stuff. And you're starting to see that, as you said, Roger Wicker, the powerful chairman of the Senate.
- [22:29]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [22:29]
Jim Acosta
Armed Services Committee, you know, joining the call for a, you know, a, an inspector general investigation into all of this. That is one of those green shoots that indicates, okay, maybe, you know, maybe the, the wizard of Oz is, is not as almighty and powerful as we thought.
- [22:48]
Charlie Sykes
Well, why do you think this one broke through? Because we've had so many stories, you've handled so many stories, and they never, they never move the needle in any particular way, by the way, I hate that phrase. But I'm looking at this new Axios poll which would suggest that more than 70% of adults in this country think this is, this is really serious. And, and looking at social media traffic, this has really picked up momentum. What is it about this that might actually break through? And again, I don't want to engage in irrational exuberance because I know how hard it is to break through these alternative reality silos. I mean, they can bend any reality, distort it beyond belief. But you know, what, what about this is different, do you think? It's just the, the clownishness, the, how easily understood it is, the memeability of it, the defense. They, they've lied about it.
- [23:43]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's sort of something we can all relate to. We've all been on these group chat threads with our college buddies or our high school friends or folks at work and, you know, sent sometimes those not safe for work type of, you know, memes and so on. And so, you know, it, it is, there is something just laugh out loud knee slapping funny about Pete Hegseth. And it's deadly serious stuff saying, you know, the, the bombs are falling in 30 minutes and so on. I mean, it is something, it is something out of a Coen Brothers movie. And, you know, I, the fact that Jeffrey Goldberg, I guess, was looped into this chat while he was sitting in the parking lot at a safeway in the D.C. area, you, I, you know, it makes it difficult to write fiction these days, you know, with, with this kind of chicanery going on, you know, and so I think that that's part of the reason why it's breaking through. I think the other reason why it's breaking through is because of what you and I were discussing earlier, that there has been so much fear, there has been so much loathing going on since Trump came into office. You have Elon Musk doing, you know, what looks like a Nazi salute on inauguration day and so on. And it's just been downright chilling at times. And. And then this, you know, escapade comes around, you know, and I maybe just. Everybody needed a good laugh, I think, is part of what.
- [25:04]
Charlie Sykes
What took place here. It is a good. It is a good laugh, and I think that's. That maybe what. What changes, even though it is so deadly. And I mean, obviously, you look at the. Their behavior, wonder. Look, if. If they behave that way, then there's no way that the Kremlin and China are not looking at the same sort of thing. The North Koreans, the Iranians. I mean, it just. It's. It is. It is. It is terrifying. The hypocrisy. I also think the one, two punch made this much more dramatic where they came out and then they said, well, there's no classified information here. There's no war plans here. And then Goldberg basically, basically daring Jeffrey Goldberg in the Atlantic to come up with more detailed stuff, which they did. They called the bluff. So the day the story appears, then they all appear, lie under oath, try to spin it, then the Atlantic publishes all the details, and it's like, oh, my God. And at that point, it was impossible to defend the indefensible.
- [25:58]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And Charlie, I mean, again, you know, maybe it's because of all the time I spent in the White House briefing room when you have the White House press secretary, Caroline Levitt, bless her heart, you know, calling this a hoax when the story was already confirmed by the National Security Council spokesperson over at the White House. I mean, I guess this makes it a true hoax. And, you know, which, you know, smacks of Kellyanne Conway's alternative facts. You know, at some point, you know, the White House press secretary, I've said this on my program, she's going to have to think about how far she wants to push things before she becomes, you know, before she goes full Sean Spicer. You never want to go full Sean Spicer. You know, as I used to say, the problem with Sean Spicer was not that Melissa McCarthy became Sean Spicer, it was that Sean spicer became Melissa McCarthy. And, you know, the. The issue. The issue for the White House, you can't just tell people. You can't pull the wool over people's eyes and just say that black is white and vice versa. It just doesn't work. And, yes, we do have these echo chambers now. I know. And we do have these echo chambers now. But, you know, the way you saw Fox and conservative media jump into damage control mode. It's almost like, here, here are the scripts, boys. You know, you know, read them and weep.
- [27:16]
Charlie Sykes
But it is, it, it is harder because I think this is easy to understand here. And also, it just cuts against all of the claims that the administration had about, you know, being strong and being, you know, mature, whatever. So, again, looking back on the week, one of the weird things is, and you're a student of all of this, Donald Trump is very conscious and very strategic. Feel free to push back on my use of any of these words in knowing when to change the subject, when to throw out the distraction, when to throw out the chaff and the chum. And I thought it was interesting that he basically has decided now to trash the economy with these new tariffs as a way to just to distract attention from the fact that he just is trashing foreign policy and national security. But the. Just talk to me a little bit about the 25% tariffs on all the cars, the car parts economists are still scratching their heads about this. The auto industry is thrown into absolute turmoil. You and I both talked to a lot of these smart business guys early on who said, yeah, these are just negotiating things, not going to actually do it. And. Yeah, and yet this is his one fetish, isn't it? This is the way that he really is, shows his power and makes everyone come to him because he just reminds people how dangerous he is and the damage he's prepared to inflict.
- [28:45]
Jim Acosta
Yeah. And the sad thing about this, though, Charlie, is that he's done this several times since, just since coming into office, and he's trying to make fetch happen with these tariffs. And you know, the problem is, is that he announces the tariffs and then a day or two later, because of the blowback, because of what he hears on Wall street, what they look at the stock market. You know, he's kind of a day trader and, and then he makes these adjustments. And so, I mean, almost more damaging to the economy. And, and the, the thing in all of this that is spreading more fear and panic on Wall street is not so much the tariffs. It's the uncertainty surrounding the tariffs and the chaotic nature in the way that he's rolling them out. You know, he, he seems to be doing this ad hoc from the hip, and at some point, you know, they're going to have to take the keys from grandpa. They're not going to. He's not going to be able to continue to do this on a daily basis or else, you know, he is going to take the economy down the tube. I mean, when you're hearing from a key.
- [29:46]
Charlie Sykes
Congress basically just gave up all of its authority over this.
- [29:49]
Jim Acosta
Well, and just, I mean, they're reputable economists who have been saying they there was a zero percent chance that the US economy would go into recession in 2025. And now you have estimates anywhere from a quarter to a third, maybe higher, of a chance that this economy is going to go into a recession. And Charlie, you and I are old, long in the tooth enough to remember there was a time when people would say, oh, presidents really don't have that much of an effect on the economy. They don't really have that kind of an impact on the economy. They can if they, if they drive the whole fucking thing off the cliff. They can. Absolutely.
- [30:26]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I'll be honest. I'll be honest with you. I don't think that I knew until a few years ago that the President could unilaterally raise taxes by hundreds of billions of dollars without any congressional authorization or action. I mean, this is one of those weird little glitches where Congress. And again, part of the storyline of our times is watching Congress, Congress give up so much of its power, surrender so much of its, of its authority. But on, on the issue of tariffs to say that we need to, you know, do something about it. I'm also going to be interested to know when Congress actually has to cast a vote or have some sort of input on what's going on with, say, Social Security. Obviously.
- [31:07]
Jim Acosta
Crazy story that.
- [31:09]
Charlie Sykes
This is a really crazy story, and it may actually turn out to be more consequential than the sexier stories, although it's.
- [31:14]
Jim Acosta
That's right.
- [31:16]
Charlie Sykes
Sorry. I mean, in terms of consequence, the one iron law of politics is you don't screw with Granny's Social Security check. It is the third rail, clearly. Look, Elon Musk believes in, you know, moving fast and breaking things. I don't know. He knows where he's going or what he's breaking. But if you're a Republican congressman or a Republican senator, at some point, do you ever want to cast a vote that says, yeah, I'm in favor of the initiatification of Social Security.
- [31:46]
Jim Acosta
Yeah, there's no question about it. And these members of Congress are already hearing from their constituents that there are long lines of Social Security offices. All of these cuts at the various local offices of the Social Security administration are, you know, are that they're having an impact and you're seeing, I think, a great deal of fear. And you're absolutely right. It used to be called the third rail in politics. And, and I don't know, maybe Elon Musk hasn't been in the United States long enough to remember that or understand that. I don't know. I mean, I'll give you another one. There's this Virginia thing.
- [32:22]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [32:23]
Jim Acosta
This Virginia gubernatorial race that's coming up in the fall, in November. The Republicans have 0.0% chance of winning that gubernatorial race. Abigail Spanberger is going to win that race by double digits in large part because of the Doge cuts that have affected federal workers in places like Fairfax, Prince William and Loudoun counties, those counties that we always talk about on election night. There are thousands, tens of thousands of federal workers who live in Northern Virginia. That's where I grew up. I grew up in Fairfax county, born and raised. I remember, you know, the State Department workers who would stand on the bus stop down the street from my mom's house. You cannot screw with those people and expect to get away with it. There's just no way. And so you talk about these bellwether races. The Virginia gubernatorial race is always seen as one of those bellwether off year election contests. And it's going to be again, and it's going to be a resounding no f you to Elon Musk and Donald Trump and what they've done with these Doge cuts. Add to that the Social Security debacle. There's no question about it. It's, it's toxic.
- [33:25]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so this is, this is really interesting to me because Abigail Spamberger, I think, is one of the rising stars of the Democratic Party. She's, she is an outspoken centrist who has really separated herself from the sort of, the more, the more progressive wing of the party. I'm not saying that she now becomes the next superstar, but Democrats are flailing around looking for new leadership. And right now Bernie and AOC are out there with the big crowds and everything. I personally do not see the future of the Democratic Party moving further left, embracing people who actually have said defund the police, who have taken many of these positions. Abigail Spanberger in some ways represents the, the center of the, the Democratic Party. And that debate's going to have to take place at some point. But right now there's no leadership in this party, is there? There's, there's no one you can say is really calling the shots. And that's. Is, is that a problem?
- [34:23]
Jim Acosta
I guess I think that's a problem. It's kind of a let's live and let live moment in the Democratic party right now. I talked to Hakeem Jeffries about this the other day. I asked him about, you know, how, you know, some of the members of, of his caucus are just sort of going off in different directions. And he seemed to be thinking that that was okay right now. He seemed to be having, showing some patience with that right now. And I don't know if you have any other choice. I tend to agree with you that perhaps Bernie and AOC may be too far left to win a national election at this point. But who the hell knows? I mean, honestly. And I do think the secret sauce may be in a form of populism that appeals to moderates. I mean, right now, you know, that sounds like somebody like a John Federerman, but he has alienated a good number of Democrats right now with the way he has acted. And so I, yeah, he's going through some things and I just, you know, I would not rule out the idea that you could see another progressive movement a la Barack Obama take hold in the Democratic Party over the next couple of years and maybe somebody we haven't thought about, haven't heard about, haven't contemplated. But I certainly think that that's a big possibility. And I agree with you about Abigail Spanberger, but some of this is sort of the Democrats need to get smart and they need to understand, you know, an Abigail Spanberger, you may not agree with her politics, she may be too centrist, but if she's going to win in Virginia, then you got to get behind that. You know, this idea that you're going to witness test at this point sounds kind of self defeating.
- [35:57]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and also, I mean, there are people like Pete Buttigieg who are out there and he's not running for the Senate in, in, in Michigan, clearly setting himself up. And you know, I think that he is, I mean, full disclosure, I think that he's the most, the most talented Democrat of his, maybe the most talented politician of his generation. I don't know, and no one knows whether America is ready to elect a gay man as President of the United States, but he would, I think, be able to appeal to that center lane. And I'm watching what he's saying a lot and he seems to be listening to what you're saying is can you have a populist movement that appeals to moderates? And he is one of those guys that seems to be honing in on that populist message. I agree, but also then veering away from some of the more toxic, divisive culture war issues.
- [36:46]
Jim Acosta
But I don't know, I think that's right. Yeah. I had him on my show a couple of days days ago. Yeah, you know, he. He's a fascinating politician to talk to. You know, we're. We may be heading back to the days of politicians speaking in paragraphs. I mean, I remember covering Barack Obama, and it was sometimes listening to you, like listening to somebody's thesis, oral thesis being presented and people to judge brings some of that, I think, you know, brain power to the equation. And, you know, he. I would not rule him out. This idea that, well, because he's gay, he can't be elected president. It reminds me of the time when, you know, Colin Powell, I think when he was talking about Barack Obama, said, you know, no, he's not Muslim, but who cares? What if he was? You know what I mean? I do think that the American people are somewhat receptive to big changes in that regard. And, you know, I was talking to Pete about, you know, being a dad at home, and he told this amazing story about how he's taken on this job teaching at the University of Chicago, and he explained this to his daughter, who was just a little girl, and she said, you know, oh, if you're going to do that, does that mean you're not going to be around anymore? And it just sort of made me think, oh, you know, gosh, he did miss a lot when he was Secretary of Transportation. Maybe he does need to spend some time at home. But he's a dad, you know, and people can relate to that. And so what if he's gay? You know, honestly, I just think that that's, you know, Donald Trump is some sort of model of, of morality. And I mean, just give me a break. There's just, you know, I just think maybe we're ready to move on beyond that kind of stuff.
- [38:26]
Charlie Sykes
Well, yeah, again, I'm getting out way over my skis on all of this, but. And I know that things like, you know, sister soldier moments or that that's become, you know, an overused cliche, but the one issue that is just dogging the hell out of Democrats right now, and I have to say this as being in a swing state where literally in 2024, you could not turn on television without seeing an ad about transsexual, the trans transition, you know, athletes, surgeries, all of those things, Pete Buttigieg may be in the position to make a pivot on that issue, you know, more effectively than other Democrats. I think a lot of Democrats are afraid of offending their progressive base by saying, all right, let's we're losing this on an 8020 issue. We need to modify our position on all of this. I don't know whether he's in a position to do that or not. Okay, so, Jim, I have to ask you this question because. So how long have you been talking about Donald Trump? I've been talking about Donald Trump since 2015, and I am fucking tired of talking about Donald Trump. I mean, it has been, yeah, this is your life. This is your prime years of your life, Jim Acosta. And yet you have had to have your head around Donald Trump. Do you get tired of it?
- [39:52]
Jim Acosta
Of course. I've thought about writing another book, and the last thing I want to do is be typing on a keyboard. Donald Trump did this today. Donald Trump did that today. Screw that. I don't want to do that right now.
- [40:05]
Charlie Sykes
Yet here we are, though.
- [40:07]
Jim Acosta
But listen, he's the President of the United States. What he does, what he says matters. I do think we are living through an important time. It's a test for this country. And you know what I was saying earlier about Trump Depression syndrome. I think it's extremely important that people not succumb to. To defeatism, to this idea that, well, that's it.
- [40:31]
Charlie Sykes
Right?
- [40:32]
Jim Acosta
You know, we had a good run. It's all over now. I mean, you could joke about that and say that kind of thing.
- [40:36]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [40:37]
Jim Acosta
But I don't think we are. And I. I just think that what we've been seeing in recent weeks is. Is. Is. Is goddamn inspiring. I mean, I just think that when you see people pick themselves off the mat, 10, 20, 30,000 people show up at a rally hooting and hollering, even though it's not even an election right now. That, to me, says that there's still some fight left in a lot of people. And I think we have to at least take some comfort in that. You know, as I wrote in my piece, he is trying to break this country. He is trying to break the idea of a political opposition in this country. But I firmly believe my dad is a Cuban refugee. My mom's parents are Barrett at Arlington National Cemetery. I'm a patriotic guy, grew up in the D.C. area. It's in my blood. I don't think this country is breakable. I don't. I just don't believe in that. And maybe I'll be the last guy on the island, you know, talking to a coconut and trying to convince myself that that's the case, but I just don't think that. And I think that what you're seeing right now is the are the green shoots of things unraveling for this guy? And what I tell folks from time to time is perhaps it's taking so long because the, the implosion is going to be that spectacular. And you just have to. You just gonna have to hang on. When the death. Remember when we saw Star wars for the first time as little kids and the Death Star blew up in front of our eyes, we're like, jesus, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen. Maybe that's what we're heading towards. Charlie.
- [42:10]
Charlie Sykes
Hey. From your lips to God's ear. That's all I can say. Jim Acosta, thank you so much for joining me and for having a positive note for a change on this podcast. And thank you all for listening to this weekend's edition, this weekend's episode of to the Contrary podcast. We do this because it's more important than ever to remember that even if you think you're talking just to the coconut, that you are not crazy. Exactly.