Podcast Summary

Podcast: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Jonathan Rauch: The Rise of the Woke Right
Date: September 11, 2025
Guest: Jonathan Rauch (Senior Fellow, Brookings Institution; Contributor, The Atlantic)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the alarming rise of the "woke right" or postmodern right in American politics, focusing on the destabilization of truth, norms, and democratic standards. Charlie Sykes and Jonathan Rauch discuss the escalation of political violence, the corrosion of institutional integrity, the transformation of evangelical Christianity in politics, and the challenges facing the Democratic Party as it seeks a new identity and messaging strategy in response to Trump’s patrimonial style of governance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Surge of Political Violence and Breakdown of Norms

• Opening Remarks (01:29 – 02:52):
  Charlie Sykes introduces the episode by referencing the shocking shooting of Charlie Kirk and situates it within a broader context of rising political violence and societal tensions.
  Quote:

  "We talk a lot about, you know, the breakdown of civil society. ... The real danger is this goes from rhetoric and conversation to this kind of violence." – Charlie Sykes (01:36)

• Jonathan Rauch's Perspective (03:33):
  America’s violent tendencies are historically rooted but currently waxing. Rauch links digital deterioration of decency to real-world aggression:

  "It's waxed and waned and we seem to be in a, in a waxing period.... I share your concern. I think the country is just generally in a dark place and right now headed toward a somewhat darker place." (03:37)

2. Erosion of Norms: Tribal Loyalty & Truth-Twisting

• Trump and the Epstein Files (04:22 – 08:22):
  Sykes discusses how the MAGA response to scandals (e.g., Trump's supposed Epstein connection) is marked by denial, deflection, and whataboutism, illustrating the extent to which truth and standards have eroded.
  • The Overton Window keeps moving, normalizing formerly unacceptable behavior (08:22).
• Rauch on Postmodern Right (06:32 – 10:15):
  Rauch describes the postmodernist mindset:

  "There's no such thing as real truth. There's only such thing as power. ... So in that world, what really happened ... is not the important thing. The important thing is being able to win the narrative." (06:54)
  He explores how MAGA justifies anything for power, abandoning previous moral concerns about figures like Epstein if it benefits their side.

3. The "Star Trek" Analogy & Postmodern Playbook

• Star Trek Reference (10:15 – 14:46):
  Rauch likens the postmodern right to Star Trek villains on a suicide mission:

  "What the post modern movement, both on the left ... and now in the postmodern right ... is it's just very good at demolishing things, at moving very quickly to grab and consolidate power because it's not concerned with truth, it's not concerned with norms. All of those things are simply imposed by whoever has power." (13:15)
  The right uses reckless tactics, winning by moving faster than opponents can respond, but can't build stable systems or govern well.

4. The Limits of Postmodernism: Reality Always Bites

• Truth vs. Narrative in Governance (14:46 – 17:06):
  Sykes and Rauch discuss failures of postmodernism in the face of hard realities—pandemics, economic data, etc.

  "Pandemics and disease is a real reality check. So RFK Jr. can peddle his ... conspiracy theories, but the reality is history is full of the germs reasserting their reality." – Charlie Sykes (14:55)
  Organizational integrity erodes when truth is ignored for power, eventually handicapping governance and accountability.

5. Christianity’s Broken Bargain and the Evangelical Shift

• Christianity’s Transformation (17:06 – 23:15):
  Rauch summarizes his book, "Cross Purposes," arguing American Christianity fails both as a source of community and as a moral check on power, becoming a vessel for partisan tribalism.
  • Evangelical embrace of Trump is a pact for power, echoing biblical temptation stories:

    "He's proposing a bargain. The bargain is, I will give you power and you will give me unquestioning loyalty. ... Now, what's he doing there? He's proposing a bargain." (20:28)

  • Instead of resisting the corruption of politics, churchgoers increasingly demand pastors support the culture war:

    "The parishioners are coming in saying, we are losing the war for our country and culture and Christianity. We need to fight, fight, fight." (22:00)

  • When religion becomes politics and vice versa, both lose their efficacy.

6. The Nature of Trumpism: Patrimonialism Explored

• Defining the Trump Era (25:23 – 31:28):
  Rauch introduces "patrimonialism," the ruler treating the state as personal property—loyalty replaces merit, governance becomes a family business, corruption and incompetence flourish.

  “Patrimonialism is when the state is run as the personal property and family business of the leader. ... It can't distinguish public benefits from personal gain, so it's always corrupt.” (25:38)

  • The corrosive effects: purging experts for loyalists, kneecapping bureaucracy, looting public resources.

7. The Democrats’ Moment: Prosperity, Messaging, and Culture

• Democratic Weaknesses and New Opportunities (32:52 – 38:21):
  Rauch sees grounds for Democratic optimism in their rediscovery of “prosperity politics”—regulatory reform, antitrust, affordability—contrasting with the GOP’s turn away from a pro-growth agenda.
  • Successful messaging must focus on abundance and supply, but execution and cultural resonance are key:

    “It's the classic Reaganesque supply side message. It says we can take the boot of crony capitalism and excessive regulation off the windpipe of the economy and when we do that, we can bring more prosperity. ... They don't have the Ronald Reagan yet, that's for sure.” (37:03)

• The Cultural Riddle (38:21 – 41:54):
  Democrats' stances on gender, race, crime, and immigration can alienate mainstream voters.
  • Rauch:

    “I think personally that it will not be possible to elect a national Democrat who is not comfortable and confident, saying there are only two sexes and they're not chosen and they're not changeable, and the Democrats aren't there yet. Even though that is, in fact a true statement, they're still not ready to confront that suite of issues in the forthright way that I think they'll need to.” (39:24)

  • Sykes:

    “The key line in all of that was, she's for them, we're for you. ... If people think that you're on my side, they're willing to accept a lot of things.” (40:15)

8. Generational Change and Overreach on the Right

• Rising Democratic Talent (41:33 – 42:54):
  Rauch points to younger Dems not trapped by elite cultural signaling, like Gallego and Talarico.
• Right-Wing Overreach (42:09 – 45:28):
  Sykes argues the current Republican administration is overreaching on issues like immigration and global affairs, which could provide openings for Democrats if they can credibly confront culture war issues and speak to mainstream anxieties.

9. The Need for a “Candidate” and Party Reform

• Leadership Vacuum (46:41–48:27):
  Institutional structure (or lack thereof) in US politics means meaningful change hinges on identifying a candidate who can unite the party and deliver the right message—neither Schumer nor Jeffries can play this role.

  “What you need to do that, in a word, is a candidate.” (46:41)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Postmodern Right and Power:

  "Truth comes from the wielding of power. If you have power, you have power over truth." – Jonathan Rauch (06:40)

• Christianity and the Bargain with Trump:

  "He's proposing a bargain. The bargain is, I will give you power and you will give me unquestioning loyalty." – Jonathan Rauch (20:28)

• Patrimonialism Defined:

  "The opposite of patrimonialism is not democracy, it's bureaucracy, because bureaucracy is about standard procedures and rules and laws. Patrimonialism is about loyalty." – Jonathan Rauch (27:30)

• On overreach:

  "They've gone into such an extreme, ... that even their own base is having a little trouble keeping up with them." – Charlie Sykes (43:30)

• On Democrats and the Whiteboard:

  "Too many Democrats bring out the whiteboard and say, well, this is why... look at the statistics here on crime. ... You need a Democrat who will say, yeah, I am just as upset about that crime ... as you are." – Charlie Sykes (44:18)

Timestamps for Key Sections

• Political Violence & Society in Crisis: 01:29–04:22
• Truth, Morality, and Postmodern Power on the Right: 04:22–10:15
• Star Trek Analogy & Tactics of the Postmodern Right: 10:15–14:46
• Limits of Narrative Control & Reality’s Return: 14:46–17:06
• Christianity’s Political Transformation & Bargain with Power: 17:06–24:36
• Defining “Patrimonialism” and Trump’s Governance: 25:23–31:28
• Democratic Strategy: Abundance, Prosperity, & Cultural Hurdles: 32:52–41:54
• New Democratic Voices & GOP Overreach: 41:33–45:28
• Party Leadership & The Need for a Candidate: 46:41–48:27

Tone and Language

The conversation is thoughtful, candid, occasionally laced with dark humor or exasperation, but maintains an analytical and earnest tone as the host and guest grapple with the seriousness of societal and political developments. Both speakers are forthright, critical, and sometimes self-reflective.

Summary

This episode explores how the American right, infused with postmodern tactics and tribal loyalty, is demolishing previous norms of truth and decency, posing unique challenges for democratic governance, civil society, and even religious institutions. Rauch and Sykes analyze the failures and potential of both parties, concluding that while Republicans risk overreach and hubris, Democrats must reclaim the mainstream on both economic and cultural issues—and, critically, rally behind a candidate who can embody these themes and win back the center.