Podcast Summary

Podcast: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Julian Zelizer: Power and Punishment (September 23, 2025)
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Julian Zelizer (Political Scientist, Historian)

Episode Overview

This episode dives into a tumultuous week in American politics marked by escalated authoritarian impulses from the Trump administration: the firing of a U.S. attorney for upholding prosecutorial norms, public weaponization of the Department of Justice against political enemies, suppression of dissenting media, and revelations of covered-up corruption within the administration. Charlie Sykes and Julian Zelizer explore these developments, their historical context, and their ramifications for American democracy, focusing on abuse of power, erosion of institutional guardrails, and the normalization of retribution politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Abuse of Presidential Power and the DOJ

(01:52–06:58)

• Norms Shattered: The episode begins with the firing of the U.S. Attorney from Virginia for refusing to pursue unfounded charges against New York AG Letitia James, replaced by a loyalist tasked with charging political opponents regardless of evidence.
  • "[Trump's] been very explicit and open. He will go after his opponents… DOJ is meant to focus on upholding the line. It's broken." — Julian Zelizer (03:18)
• Historical Comparison: Sykes references Paul Rosenzweig’s Atlantic piece, likening Trump’s actions to King Henry II’s indirect order to eliminate Becket.
  • "Attorney General Pam Bondi... like Henry's loyal knights, she has received a royal command." — Paraphrased from Rosenzweig via Sykes (05:27)
• Normalization of Scandal: Both speakers note that what would once be an impeachable offense is now treated as routine.
  • "In broad daylight... if you just do it, then it's not a scandal… He says if the President does it, it's not a scandal, and that's where we are in 2025." — Julian Zelizer (08:16)

2. Power, Punishment, and Political Retribution

(06:58–11:30)

• Calculated Intimidation: Sykes and Zelizer explore whether such open acts of power are displays of strength or weakness, agreeing that desperation makes such behavior more dangerous.
  • "People who are struggling, people who are in trouble, can often take the most dangerous steps because they feel if they don't do dramatic things... they will lose their power." — Julian Zelizer (10:12)
• The Lawsuit Barrage: Discussion of frivolous lawsuits — like Trump’s $15 billion suit against the New York Times — serving more as intimidation than legal pursuits.
  • "It's one more tool to lean on people, to make it scary to oppose him or to say no, because you're thinking through all the costs..." — Julian Zelizer (12:57)

3. Presidency as Inflamer-in-Chief vs. Comforter-in-Chief

(13:49–16:56)

• Juxtaposition at Rally: A mass rally in Arizona for Charlie Kirk contrasted the widow’s call for forgiveness with Trump’s open admission of hating his enemies.
  • "Yeah, I know we're supposed to love our enemies. I don't. I hate them. I don't want good things to happen to them." — Donald Trump (paraphrased by Sykes, 13:49)
• Erosion of Presidential Tradition: Zelizer notes past presidents' roles in healing after national tragedies and how Trump has reversed this, fueling division instead.
  • "The role of the President is to say, calm down... and he did the opposite, and he's done it many times." — Julian Zelizer (15:31)
• Dangerous Rhetoric: Stephen Miller’s comments at the rally drew direct parallels to fascist rhetoric.
  • "I've said this before, this guy... is a fascist right down to the last follicle..." — Charlie Sykes (16:56)

4. Targeting Media—FCC and Suppression of Dissent

(18:38–24:57, 31:08–33:30)

• Weaponizing the FCC: The chairman, Brendan Carr, jawboned Disney/ABC into dropping Jimmy Kimmel, amounting to direct governmental suppression of ideological dissent.
  • "Is the FCC in the business of enforcing certain ideological standards?... That is not what the FCC is for." — Julian Zelizer (20:15)
• Conservative Pushback: Unprecedented criticism from Republicans (Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, Ben Shapiro) highlighted the dangerous precedent being set.
  • "Ted Cruz... basically says, you sound like a mafioso." — Charlie Sykes (21:53)
• Dangers of Precedent: The false logic of "permanent power" blinds MAGA supporters to the risk of such tools being wielded by future Democratic administrations.
  • "You don't want the other side to do it to you... They are operating on a false logic of permanent power." — Julian Zelizer (24:57)

5. Refusal to Relinquish Power

(27:34–31:08)

• Ratcheting Risk: Sykes cites Barry Weiss and Jonathan Chait, observing the more aggressively those in power violate norms and laws, the more dangerous it is if they face the loss of power.
  • "The prospect of losing power now becomes really, really, really dangerous." — Paraphrased from Jonathan Chait (27:34)
• Optimism Amidst Despair: Zelizer remains cautiously hopeful in institutional resilience but warns that increasingly, maintaining power is viewed as vital self-protection.
  • "At this point, they need it [power] to protect themselves." — Julian Zelizer (31:08)

6. Expanding Government Censorship—Pentagon Press Guidelines

(31:08–33:30)

• Unprecedented Restrictions: Introduction of new Pentagon rules that threaten press credentials for reporting unapproved stories, described as “absolute prior restraint.”
  • "There is a huge inconsistency... To do this in the Pentagon... should stir a lot of concern." — Julian Zelizer (32:22)
• Judicial Hope: Sykes remains confident the courts will hold the line based on previous press freedom cases.

7. Corruption & Cover-Up—Tom Homan Bribe Scandal

(33:30–39:46)

• FBI Sting Quashed: Public face of Trump’s mass deportation policy, Tom Homan, allegedly caught on tape accepting a $50,000 bribe, with the investigation reportedly blocked by the administration.
  • "If it is, it's a pretty big implication of a person running an organization in government that is deporting people... Here he would be taking bribes." — Julian Zelizer (36:06)
  • "This is the culture set from the top." — Charlie Sykes (39:01)
• Culture of Impunity: The normalization of self-enrichment and scandal at the top leads to disregard for ethical standards at all levels.
  • "The more you do, the more you accelerate... and the fewer consequences he faces, the more stories you will see like this." — Julian Zelizer (39:46)

8. Thin Red Lines and the Limits of Outrage

(40:25–41:33)

• Puppy Paradox: Trump purportedly disqualified Kristi Noem from VP consideration for shooting a puppy, but not for overseeing mass deportations—indicative of skewed ethical priorities.
  • "Not even you kill puppies. You kill everything, but even you don't kill puppies." — Trump (relayed by Sykes, 40:25)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the normalization of criminality:
  • "Nixon seems like a choir boy." — Charlie Sykes (05:59)
• On the damage to American democracy:
  • "That is exactly what the Constitution attempted to stop... But now in 2025, that's what we have." — Julian Zelizer (40:25)
• On apathy and distraction:
  • "My great fear is apathy often... it's a bit bigger than Kimmel. I mean, it's bigger in some ways, but it's not getting covered." — Julian Zelizer (32:22)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment Description | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------------- |------------| | Opening framing: DOJ, FCC jawboning, Trump’s public commands | 01:52–06:58| | Lawsuits as intimidation | 11:30–12:57| | Rally for Charlie Kirk, Trump’s open hatred for enemies | 13:49–16:56| | FCC intervention, conservative media backlash | 18:38–24:57| | Dangers of precedent and MAGA’s belief in permanent power | 24:30–27:34| | Fears about peaceful transfer of power, January 6th recap | 27:34–31:08| | Pentagon press censorship | 31:08–33:30| | Bribery scandal: Tom Homan and DOJ cover-up | 33:30–39:46| | "Puppy paradox" and the limits of Trump’s “red lines” | 40:25–41:33|

This episode chillingly outlines the normalization of authoritarian behavior and corruption at the highest levels of government, warning that the current crisis is not abstract or hidden, but occurring “in broad daylight.” Sykes and Zelizer stress the vital importance of vigilance, institutional resilience, and public engagement to counter the encroachment of power unconstrained.