← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
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- [00:02]
Acast Host
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Molly Graham
A lot of work advice. Sounds good in theory, but falls apart when you actually try to use it. I'm on a mission to change that. I'm Molly Graham, a company builder and the new host of Work Life, a podcast from ted. I've spent my career inside fast growing companies, and one thing I know for sure is that work is messy. In this new season, I'm excited to share my conversations with founders, operators and creatives about the real story behind their shiniest successes. The lessons that no one ever posts on LinkedIn. Listen now on Work Life. Wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:44]
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- [00:54]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. Well, I'm looking at this headline that just dropped in my inbox, just from the Daily Mail. Secret sugar daddy sex scandal explodes inside Trump's counterterrorism headquarters. Read. Glamorous senior aides, voracious text messages, itemized trophies, and her utterly shameless justification. And apparently this woman, 29 year old woman, has been the deputy Assistant Secretary for counterterrorism since May 2025. Why does this keep happening? You know, an administration filled with all of the best people. Okay, so catching up, the straits of Hormuz are still closed. Cash Patel still has his job. Devin Nunes, however, does not. He managed to lose more than $700 million as the CEO of Trump Media, which is quite an accomplishment. And Virginia votes to redraw their district lines to give Democrats more seat. And of course, Donald Trump says that referendum vote rigged because it's just another day that ends with why. So joining me to break down everything that's going on, our good friend, former Congressman Adam Kinzinger. How you doing, Adam?
- [02:12]
Adam Kinzinger
Hey, brother. We always have some good stuff to talk about. It's not, it's not just because I happen to be on the show. It's because like you said, it's a day. It's a day that exists. So there's always going to be plenty of insanity.
- [02:24]
Charlie Sykes
You know, you actually had a really interesting post. I didn't have it in front of me before, but you had an interesting post on Tax Day, which I still haven't quite gotten my head around. Where you wrote, a country where the rules only apply to some people is not a country. I mean, if you're a working class American who plays by the rules, you pay your taxes, you don't bribe anybody. You don't steal, you don't cheat. And you watch the most powerful man in the country do all of those things and face zero consequences. What does that tell you about the system you've been faithfully working for? What does it tell you when you, when you're paying 20% of your income in taxes and Donald Trump and his billionaire buddies pay zero? And I guess the cognitive dissonance that this is the people's voice, the voice of the forgotten man. Man, that is a great, that was just an interesting point. The people who play by the rules and the contrast to what you're seeing every freaking day.
- [03:24]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. So, Charlie, this is where I think, like, I don't know, I'm not going to sit here and tell the Democrats how to message. I have concerns with what we're seeing, not necessarily from the Democratic leaders, but from, you know, I've watched you probably have these clips on social media where a moderate Democrat is speaking to the convention and they get booed. You know, they have some moderate position, yeah, it was Michigan. They have some moderate position on Israel and they get booed. And I'm worried about that. The Democrats are going to track super far left because I think the issue that is going to win, and I still believe, like you do and probably all your listeners, that actually democracy is at threat. It is a real threat. And I believe one of the most powerful messages is that if you play by the rules in this country, one of the things we are always proud of as Americans as we say, that if you work hard, play by the rules, you'll get ahead. And I don't think people feel that now. I don't think that's true right now. In fact, you know, they've cut the IRS in half, which in a prior day I would have liked, except they do it so that now the people that, you know, are wearing the white collars can, you know, go around IRS rules. You see what happens in the markets before Trump makes an announcement. You see what happens on these predictive markets, the betting sites. And I think people need to keep in mind that on the, this isn't just rich people betting, you know, losing some money like they do in some high stakes poker game. There are people on the other end of either these bets or like these market moves. It could have been your 401k that actually was on the receiving end when somebody shorted the market on oil 15 minutes before Donald Trump made an announcement. And, and I think that is a powerful message for people.
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Charlie Sykes
I think so.
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Adam Kinzinger
Which is not. Let's argue tax rates. It's not. Let's argue whatever. So it's just like you're getting screwed by the rich in. And that is not America. And I think we need to just hammer that home.
- [05:23]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. In the 19th century, had the Gilded Age. We are living through the grifted age. I think people will look back on this, on this period as just this amazing intersection between greed and grift and just pure raw corruption. So I do think that that's a powerful message. Okay, so let's talk about what happened in Virginia and where. Look, I mean, it was a gerrymander. And I don't want people to misunderstand me because I agreed with you on all of this that I thought Democrats had no choice. It's a necessary evil. But both parts of that are true, that when Donald Trump launches this war, the only way for Democrats to survive, especially if they think that MAGA poses an existential threat, is you have to fight back. You have to use the same things. On the other hand, now we're at this point where it is an eye for an eye, a gerrymander for a gerrymander. We could all end up blind. Everybody loves gerrymanders. Even people who have until five minutes ago claimed absolutely hate them. And you made an interesting point the other day. You were personally the victim of a gerrymander twice.
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Acast Host
Yeah.
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Charlie Sykes
I remember in your movie, twice in your movie, the moment when you're told that you've been basically redistricted out of your congressional seat. And that was a gut punch moment. So give me your reaction as somebody who has been on the other side side of the gerrymandering process, how you're looking at what's happening here in places like California and Texas and Florida and Virginia.
- [06:57]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I was targeted twice. The first time was in 2012 in that redistricting. And that was because I was a young up and coming Republican and they wanted to get rid of me and I ended up winning. It was a member against member primary. It's one of the most awful things you can go through, as you know from a political perspective. And I hate it. Right. But each of those gerrymanders that happen, let's keep in mind that happened at the turn of the decade, redistricting, which happens in every state at that point. And so look, Illinois, certainly gerrymanders for the Democrats. And I was the victim of that. Where this change, and I want to be clear, I would pass today if we could, a nationwide, like independent district commission. Right. I think that would be the answer but what happened six, eight months ago is Donald Trump, somebody was talking to him and said, you know, we could squeeze a few more seats out of Texas. And he just said, do it. And so the it. They broke the tradition and started doing this redistricting for the sole purpose. By their own words.
- [08:05]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
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Adam Kinzinger
Of a power grab. By their own words. And by the way, and I want to, I, you know, if I get two in the weeds, tell me. But I want to just like, debunk some of the things Republicans are fighting back with. They'll say, well, North Carolina had mid district or mid century, mid decade redistricting and all that stuff. By the way, North Carolina is a swing state. And if you actually look at the North Carolina districts, Democrats have been gerrymandered out of existence there. But each time. So anytime you look at this and you say, my goodness, what happened here? So Donald Trump makes the decision, let's get some extra seats out of that. California reacts, Virginia reacts, and the Republicans go apoplectic. Like I said, I would love to pass a nationwide ban, but right now, if you make a decision to unilaterally disarm in the face of what is clearly an attempt to take the Congress, surely by using a technicality, which is, I guess we could redistrict in the middle of a decade, then you're going to lose. I mean, look, Charlie, I don't like nuclear weapons. I don't. Right. But do I think the US should get rid of its nuclear weapons? No, because other countries have them. And so Republicans went into this fight thinking Democrats were going to play by the rules or the, the old rules, and they didn't. And they're getting beat for it, and they're going bananas. Now, here's the thing. Mutual assured destruction, to use my war terminology, the thing that kept the United States and the Soviet Union from banana fighting each other was the fact that we knew we could destroy each other in a heartbeat. Now, the only way to get real nationwide redistricting reform is, I think, for both sides to recognize they can lose in this. And until now, the Republicans have not had that feeling. So good job, Virginia. Good job.
- [10:01]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay, so a couple of points here, you know, and maybe this analogy is a bit of a reach, but it does feel like when Donald Trump launched this, this, this war, a little bit like with Iran, where he thought it was gonna be quick, he thought it was going to be easy, and he did not expect his opponents to fight back as vigorously as they did. I think one of the reasons why Republicans are apoplectic is because they just simply assumed that Democrats would roll over, that they would say, you know, we're gonna stick with our principle. The danger is, and they have not, as a result, it is, you know, backfiring badly. And I think in the end that might not make a fundamental difference because I think the overall political climate is just so bad for Republic. I think that they're going to find out that, you know, some of the games they played in Texas are really going to backfire because of their loss of the Hispanic vote. So, you know, my concern is, though, and I'm hoping that you're right, I'm hoping that this, this fiasco, this mutually assured destruction you're seeing now will create some bipartisan momentum sometime in our lifetime to reform gerrymanders, to actually have fair, you know, fair districts. That would be a wonderful thing sometimes after terrible scandals. There is that, that momentum for reform. The other alternative, though, is that we have this downward spiral, this race to the bottom, where, you know, in all out political warfare, you know how this argument goes, standing on principle seems like a luxury, you know, and you look weak. People say, I want a fighter. I want a fighter who will do anything. Well, okay, we're kind of seeing what, what that means for gerrymanning. I'm just saying this as a caution because at some point you do become, you know, what you oppose, unless you do have some sort of an anchor and all. It's not. By the way, do you see what Donald Trump's reaction was? I'm gonna share this with people. I'm just gonna hold this up because I have it in big, big letters, Donald Trump.
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Adam Kinzinger
It's rigged.
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Charlie Sykes
What a surprise. You know what a rigged election is for Donald Trump? I mean, this is a trick question. Any election, any election, he loses. Yeah, he's been doing this bullshit since he lost the Iowa caucus back in 2016 after Ted Cruz beat him in my home state of Wisconsin in the Wisconsin primary. What did he say? Did he graciously congratulate his opponent? He never does. It's always rigged. So here's what he says, all in caps. A rigged election took place last night in the great Commonwealth of Virginia. Exclamation point. All day long, Republicans were winning. The spirit capitalized was unbelievable until the very end, when of course, there was a massive mail in ballot drop, which he puts in quotation marks for some reason. Where have I heard that before? And the Democrats eked out another crooked victory, exclamation point, 6 to 5. This would be the congressional delegation goes to 10 to 1. And yet the presidential election in November was very close to a 5050 split. In addition to everything else, the language on the referendum was purposefully unintelligible and deceptive. As everyone knows, I am an extraordinarily brilliant person. Moment here, moment here. And even I had no idea what the hell they were talking about in the referendum. And neither do they. Exclamation point. Let's see if the courts will fix this travesty of justice. So there's Donald Trump. By the way, does Donald Trump not understand how the vote counts work? I mean, is he really just doesn't get it or is he just counting on his supporters not to understand that. Yeah, sometimes the urban vote is going to be counted late, sometimes the mail in votes will be counted late. I just remember talking about this in 2020, saying it's going to look like a red wave and then when those votes are counted, and yet Donald Trump has managed to convince millions of people that that normal process is what makes an election rigged.
- [14:02]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. You know, Charlie, here's something I've been wrestling with and I. The problem is I don't know quite how to articulate it easily, but like, I think there's this thing in MAGA where they know the truth. So, like how the votes are coming. Right? They know that. Yeah. I mean, I wish Fairfax county would have had the votes out earlier, that would have been better, but they didn't. And they know that it's fair and they know how the red mirage works, but I don't think they care anymore. It's all about can you make a point and stick to it. And that becomes the truth. Right. That becomes then reality. It doesn't matter what the actual truth is. And you can just see it in the arguments. I mean, all the people you and I used to cavort with, you know, on the right that are posting today that, you know, this is the opening shot in this salvo. They know damn well that this started with Texas. They know it, but they're not going to say that. And, and it's just, it's just pure lies. The other interesting point, and, and I think we need to do a better job of, of making this, which is when Texas did their redistricting, they crammed it through the state legislature. Fine. I'm not arguing that they did anything illegal. They didn't. When California and Virginia did it, they put it in front of the people to vote on or they could have voted yes or no. And then I think, I believe both states had it to where it reverted back, back to the independent commission, you know, in two or four years. And so if you're going to. What, what's clear is Virginia and California in that process is making it clear, look, we're doing this because we have to retaliate short term, you guys. Yeah, and you guys get to choose. You get to choose whether you want to do this or not. We'll put it in front of you. And by the way, we're not getting rid of our independent commissions because we still believe in it. This is the way to do it. And the, the absolute BS lies that we hear from some of our former friends pretending and being aghast at what happened. I mean, Eric Erickson, I'll give him a little credit because he actually posted today that this is why Texas never should have done this. Well, that's correct. I mean, look, I've been in fights before. I, I know that if I punch somebody, you know, they could punch back and they would have a right to punch back. And that's exactly what happened here. And Trump is going to play the rigged thing. The thing is, if he truly believed it was rigged, you would have federal agents today in Virginia. You don't have that. He knows he lost. And I mean, look, dude, you play, what is it? You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.
- [16:38]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, your, your, your point about mutually assured destruction. That's also why in the past, rational political parties have understood, don't abuse the power when you are in office, because if you do, you create a precedent for the other guys to do the same thing to you when they get back into office. That's why there's a certain amount of restraint. But I think that that's been eroding. You know, you watch some of the MAGA folks and you ask, okay, do you really want the President to have this kind of power? How would you feel if this was a President Bernie Sanders or AOC or Gavin Newsom exercising this? And it's almost like they just can't sort of make that point. No, and I think Democrats would have the same issue. So I want to ask you about one other, because this is sort of a side issue, but it's this culture of people willing to abase themselves to Donald Trump. And of course, we're gonna get to, you know, your former Republican colleagues in Congress who've made that into a art form or maybe just a way of life, how they abase themselves. But, you know, one of the things that was really, I think, the most disappointing, that's a Weak word for Trump 2.0 is watching the, you know, business community, one institution after another come in and. And bow the knee. And these are rich, powerful guys. And yet they felt the need to grovel. I'm sure you saw this. So Tim Cook is stepping down as the CEO of Apple. Let's face it, objectively speaking, one of the most successful businessmen of our era, he turned that into a $4 trillion company. So Donald Trump goes on truth social, and he just lavishes praise on the guy. What an incredible guy. Boasting that Cook had appealed to him when he needed help. For me, it began a phone call from Tim at the beginning of my first term. Trump wrote, he had a fairly large problem that only I as president could fix. And then, okay, keep in mind the President, United States, in this congratulatory post, then says, when I got the call, I said, wow, it's Tim Apple. Actually, Cook calling. How big is that? I was very impressed with myself to have the head of Apple calling to kiss my ass. Representatives from Apple did not immediately respond to a request comment. So, okay, so you're Tim Apple, you have $4 trillion company, and the President is basically now mocking you that you kissed his ass. He understood it. You think, okay, so all these executives are saying, no, he really does respect me. He really does. He listens to me. What he's thinking is, I am so impressed with myself that I can make you grovel and kiss my ass. Yes.
- [19:14]
Adam Kinzinger
This is like, look, every. Everybody needs to understand this. And I, I firmly believe this. The only way you actually get Trump's respect is by fighting him. And I'm not saying this because I'm not impressed with myself, like Trump is of himself. But I will say that I think Trump has a respect for me and like Liz Cheney, that he doesn't for other people. He's trying to figure out why he can't get you. Why haven't you succumbed to his charm? And by the way, in person, he actually is pretty. He's. He's pretty charming, which is, I know, crazy for people to think about, but, you know, he does that if you turn to him and bow down. The understanding, the hope by politicians particularly, is like, now he's going to like me. I'll be in his good graces. And you will for a little bit, until he doesn't want you. But Tim Cook is the CEO of arguably at least close to the most culturally the largest and most culturally impactful company in the United States right now. He doesn't need Trump, but yet he Went and debased himself, probably thinking he would stay out of Trump's crosshairs for the next, you know, the rest couple years of his career. And this is how he's pushed out the door. I mean, this is just the ramblings of an insane narcissist that happens to have a lot of power in a position where he can do it. But this is a message to anybody that happens to be listening that thinks you can bow down and win Trump over. You can for a little bit. He will always push you out the door. You know, Charlie, if you went, if you, if you put out a podcast tomorrow and said I was wrong, Donald Trump is actually awesome. Like, he'd bring into the Oval Office, you'd be on, you know, CNN that night, and then, you know, within that big Oval Office shot. But then within three months, he'd be like, talking about weak you were and how you bowed down.
- [21:04]
Charlie Sykes
No, I think the men in the white coats would come to, to take me away, I guess. I think they would again. It's like, I wonder if all of these other business executives who think somehow they bought themselves some temporary safety, you know, are sitting there going, at some point, the President, United States is going to boast that I kissed his ass. And yeah, of course, you know, you're not in a position to exercise any pride. You've given away your pride.
- [21:30]
Adam Kinzinger
And as a man with ego, which every One of these CEOs an ego, like, a lot, why do it? I, that's what I don't get. And I've never my time in politics and as a congressman, I was not near as powerful as Tim Cook, but even I'm in that position, sitting here going, my, there is no, like, ego, like what my reputation, Nothing is worth that like the gravity. I mean, look at Ted Cruz. Trump talks about his wife, Ted Cruz bows down. I, I, this is what I don't get. And they claim to be the party of alpha males. They claim to be the party of leaders, and yet they're the biggest victims. They're the biggest beta cuck males there are. And by the way, now the Republican Party evidently is for suing everybody all the time. And seven and a half minutes ago, the Republican Party was the party that was against insane lawsuits. But now if you say something mean about Cash Patel, that's probably true. You get sued for a gajillion dollars. That's, that's the party. Congratulations for those that have stayed in the gop. Congratulations. You've been consistent in your ability to say you're a Republican, but you have been absolutely inconsistent in anything you believe because you cannot believe what you used to as a Republican and still claim to be a Republican today.
- [22:52]
Charlie Sykes
So I think you're onto something here because they all think of themselves as we're going to restore manliness. We're going to restore all of these, you know, alcohol alpha qualities, when really what we're seeing is a cult of beta cucks.
- [23:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Totally, totally followers. And again, you're following a man that is absolutely, that has such a low self esteem of himself. I mean I, I think every psychologist or psychiatrist would tell you that probably he has a self esteem issue that leads to the narcissism, whatever it is. You're following a inherently flawed man who, even if he's taken all his vitamins, is not going to be with us in 10 years. Like there is an end date when certainly an end date of his presidency. And you're putting all of this on the line for the short term hit of cocaine or heroin that you get that feels good at the moment but leaves you empty.
- [23:47]
Charlie Sykes
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- [24:55]
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- [25:28]
Charlie Sykes
So you mentioned Kash Patel. Kash Patel, who was the subject of a rather extraordinary Atlantic article over the weekend. And he immediately sued the Atlantic for $250 million. Because this is another thing. In Trump world, you can't just sue. You have to sue for just, you know, more money than God. I'm surprised he didn't sue them for $250 billion. But given all of the controversies surrounding Kash Patel, what we know, what we can surmise, the fact that so many people apparently are willing to blow the whistle on him. Why does he still have a job? Pam Bondi is out. Kristi Noem is out. The labor secretary is. Is out. If Cash Patel was a woman, would he be out? I don't want to play the sexism card, because all the people who are out deserve to be out. But why does Cash Patel still have a job right now?
- [26:20]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, I think, I do think, and I don't play the sexism card either, but I think that is part of it. I mean, I think there's something to that. Or maybe the antics when, when a woman is kind of unhinged with her antics, like Kristi Noemi, that may hit Trump differently than when a man does it. When a man does it, it's cool, right? He's drinking and hanging out with his bros. I don't know. I also know that Donald Trump and the administration has. Trump's got this thing where he doesn't. He may intend to fire Cash at some point, but he's not going to do it where, you know, the left takes credit for it. It'll be for some other reason or a way to push him out. And also, I mean, really, do you think Donald Trump cares much about the FBI? Because I really don't. I mean.
- [27:06]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, I think, I think putting Cash Patel in is, was his big middle finger to the FBI.
- [27:11]
SoFi Advertiser
Yeah.
- [27:11]
Charlie Sykes
I despise you so much. I am putting this chode in charge. Right?
- [27:16]
Adam Kinzinger
Yep, yep. Absolutely. And, and I mean, the FBI even, you know, they got rid of their counter Iran, you know, cell or whatever, two weeks before we launched a war against Iran. And I think this is a big thing that people need to Remember is the FBI's kind of main job is not so much white collar crime. That's part of it. It's public corruption. And obviously that's been defanged. Unless you're a Democrat. Then they're going to be all over you. But it is counterterrorism. The CIA doesn't do counterterrorism. It can't. The FBI does, and they have been stripped of it. And I don't know, we're not going to see the. The results of that right away, but I wouldn't be shocked. God forbid. And five, 10 years, we have another massive terrorist attack, and it could be traced to now.
- [28:03]
Charlie Sykes
I think the history is going to be very, very ugly. So, you know, we mentioned this culture of bros. You used to serve in Congress. Give me some sense of what's going on there. You have over the last couple of days, number of motions to expel members, the whole Eric Swalwell story. You have Corey Mills, who is out there. You had Tony Gonzalez, who also resigned. You had a deeply corrupt Democratic congresswoman from Florida. And I guess one of the questions that people are having is, is the, you know, what is the culture in Congress that people think. People behave this way and seem to think that they can get away with it. And there have been suggestions. There was kind of a, you know, look the other way, that it was an open secret that Eric Swalwell, you know, acted that way, which seems really almost hard to believe after the MeToo movement, given everything that's been happening. But can you give me some insight? Is it kind of like a frat house for congressmen? Is there some culture that. That where people think that they can behave this way? Thoughts?
- [29:08]
Adam Kinzinger
I think it goes through. I think Congress in general kind of goes through phases. I had never heard those rumors about Eric, in fact, which is. Which to me is always interesting. I don't know if he hit it well or it was only around Democrats that they heard because, you know, people are coming out and saying, oh, we all heard stories. I had never heard that he seemed well behaved enough around me. But look, Congress is like I used to say, and I believe this to an extent. Congress is just a very public cross section of a small town. You know, you're from Wisconsin. You have all these towns that have 500 people in them, right? They have a cop, they have a judicial system. Because inevitably, among the 500 people, there's going to be corruption, there's going to be assault, there's going to be that kind of stuff. And Congress is basically a cross section of America. It's just. Just with a big, bright, shining spotlight. But I think it's gotten way worse in the last couple years. And I think a lot of that, to be honest with you, is. Is the MAGA thing. I mean, you See, these people that go there now, not to legislate. I mean, I went through a party phase in Congress for sure, but I knew that my main job was to legislate and to work for my district. And I think people go there now, and it's. It's a. It's Hollywood to them. I mean, I think Hollywood is even more sober, literally sober, than D.C. is right now. And they go there because they want to be famous. They want to, you know, whatever. They. They get their lip injections, and now they can go to Mar A Lago. And I think that has created a culture of. Of parties. Parties, in and of themselves aren't wrong. But what comes with that? What comes with heavy drinking? What comes with living together? Because basically everybody lives together because you. You go, in essence, to another town where your family isn't. Well, what comes with that? The stuff you're starting to see. And. And let's be clear. Does MAGA talk about. Have you ever heard them talk about how important it is to respect women, to respect the virtue of women, to. No, all they do is put the lip injections and the fillers, you know, next to the old businessman at Mar A Lago. And that is the culture of maga. I mean, even Kristi Noemi. Kristi Noem, who inherently, physically, when I got elected with her, she was very beautiful. She was very moderate. Right. A pretty sane person. Something broke in her. She became insane. She basically physically remade herself and then would do the little pigtails while she's in her hs, you know, Homeland Security stuff. So I think you can look at her and say, she is a small section of what's happened to the party in general. So I do think it's gotten out of control.
- [31:52]
Charlie Sykes
So I. I remember, you know, knowing somebody who'd work Capitol Hill, and sort of the mantra was, anybody who was coming there was don't do anything that you would not want to read on the front page of the Washington Post. Always think of it that way.
- [32:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Correct.
- [32:06]
Charlie Sykes
But what's changed now? What's changed is that you no longer have that sense of. Sense of accountability because the media no longer has the ability to hold people accountable. You get a bad story that you are so drunk, like Kash Patel so drunk that your security aides had to ask for breaching devices. I mean, we're not just talking drunk. We're talking battering ram on the door drunk type thing, you know? And what does Cash Patel do? He says, well, it's the fake news media. You could always attack any sort of A source that's changed. Second, you have sort of the Amorality of Maga movement led by Donald Trump, where you could feel you can shelter under the wing of his amorality. And, you know, it just seems like if he can get away with all this, if he will protect you, if he says you are immune, why not? So there's not that fear that someone's looking over your shoulder, and there's not that moral sensibility, that character is at the heart of what you're doing. Because clearly, a movement led by Donald Trump does not think that character is destiny, does it?
- [33:07]
Adam Kinzinger
No. And I'd like to add something. So I remember right when I got to Congress, you know, there was a. We had the big class of whatever it was, 100 or something after 2010. A lot of us were young. You know, we were partiers when we got there. And it took John Boehner, of all people. You know, Boehner likes his wine. He sat us down, a group of us, and he's like, you guys need to get your together, right? And that was very impactful. You know, the speaker, you know, sitting us down and saying, you guys are in a serious job, right? You do good work, but you've got to act like it at all times. And Mike Johnson doesn't do that. That there is no, like, kind of mentorship structure in place, at least in the Republicans right now, where somebody can come and give you tough love. In fact, the more crazy you are, the more you're rewarded, you know, because you get attention, because everybody thinks you're fun and cool. So I think that's happened. The other thing is when you begin to unhinge from accountability, that leads to so much corruption in other places. I, first off, I actually don't know how I could be corrupt in Congress. Like, I don't know what you can do that's corrupt. I guess I could, you know, put in fake mileage reimbursements or something like that. But I'll tell you, if I was there now and I didn't have a moral conscience, this is the time to be corrupt. If somebody's going to come and offer you $10,000 to vote for a bill, you may as well do it now, because even if you're caught, you know, look at Tom Homan. What happened when he was. Was it Homan or Bavino? Homan, I think with the bag of cash, with Cava, nothing. The case was dropped. Like, the FBI is not going to come after you if you're a Republican in Congress right now.
- [34:49]
Charlie Sykes
Well, And Donald Trump has used it all you can. Well, and he's also used his pardon power disproportionately to, you know, hand out get out of jail free cards to corrupt Republican and Democratic politicians. I mean, interest in terms of white collar corruption. If you are still in Trump's favor, there' a chance you can take that $10,000 bribe, even if you're caught, which is unlikely, or prosecuted, that Donald Trump is going to take care of you. Which again, is one of the reasons why I think so many people stick so close to Donald Trump is because, you know, in this culture that, you know, if you have his favor, he might be able to get you out of a tough spot. If you are out of his favor, if you ever break with him, you're naked. You were out there and you were exposed.
- [35:34]
Adam Kinzinger
Look at the crypto stuff. I mean, you know that one of the chief crypto corrupt dudes ends up going into part. It's been a while since I remembered this. I may get some of the details wrong, but goes into partnership with the Trump family, magically gets a pardon. Trump is asked about it. He says, oh, I don't know him. I just signed a bunch of pardons. And in the same breath goes after, you know, Joe Biden for auto pins, like, and by the way, did Donald Trump sign 2,000 pardons for the January Sixers? That's why his hand is the auto pen thing. Yeah, right, exactly.
- [36:10]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. That's what.
- [36:11]
Adam Kinzinger
He's crazy. I mean, it's, it's, it's off. I'll just say, Charlie, it is awful. And I think, you know the other. It's also a consequence of Congress having stepped aside from actually playing its role. And now it's a performance center. It's not a real center of government. That'll change in November, but, But not till then.
- [36:30]
Charlie Sykes
No, I think that's crucial. Okay. I wanna talk to you about a piece that you wrote a couple of weeks ago. And I had texted you about it and there's so much that's out there that I read, so much. But this was a piece that you published on April 1st. And it's kind of stuck with me because, and I hope that people. This feels like we're stepping back from the news cycle because you wrote about day one, how the next president could erase Trump and restore a Republican. Every once in a while, I do think it's important to sort of like, sort of imagine, you know, what we learned in Hungary was authoritarianism is not necessarily forever or inevitable. There may come that day after the Donald Trump leaves. And I think we have our fantasies about it, but can we just walk through this piece that you wrote? You said, I wanna talk about something more important. I wanna talk about the next president, what they need to do from the moment they take office. Because the self worship and institutional damage of the Trump era does not just fade on its own. It has to be delib. Methodically undone. Not out of revenge, not out of spite, out of principle. Now this is one of the lessons maybe we should learn from the Biden years. Biden thought that the fever had broken, that he didn't need to do this.
- [37:41]
Adam Kinzinger
That's right.
- [37:41]
Charlie Sykes
We don't illusion. So let's go. What needs to happen? The first thing is simple. Let's talk about that. Remove Donald Trump and I'll read what you say and then you explain. Remove Donald Trump's portrait from the White House and restore Joe Biden's discussion.
- [37:55]
Adam Kinzinger
Yes. So look, you know, Donald Trump created this walk of fame where he replaced Joe Biden with an auto pen. Har har. Hilarious. I would, and I'm saying me as president because I could make this decision. The thing I would do on day one is put, and I would do this in front of the media. I would put Joe Biden's picture up and I would take Donald Trump's down. I'm not pretending like he didn't exist because we need to remember him as a cautionary tale in history. But he doesn't get the honor of being on that wall if he took another president off that wall.
- [38:27]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, Number two, every federal building, every government facility, every piece of public infrastructure that had Trump's name slapped on it by executive decree gets stripped because those buildings belong to the American people. See, now these are doable things. So just watching Donald Trump's name taken off the Kennedy Center, I'd pay for that.
- [38:49]
Adam Kinzinger
I would too. No, I would too. And all of the important stuff of this is in. It's people will say, or if I was debating somebody on the right right now, they'd be like, oh, that's, that's petty. That's. No, it's not petty. It is symbolic and it's a symbol. It's a symbolic thing that says on day one, we are restoring a republic. That is not about who the President is. It's not about ego. It is about the American people. The reason Kennedy has his name on the Kennedy center is because that was built in honor of him, him after his death, not to build him up when he was president.
- [39:27]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, Exactly. Okay, so number three, currency then tasked the Treasury Department through the normal banking and circulation system with phasing out every bill signed by Donald Trump and replacing it with clean currency. You know, that sounds dramatic. Paper money wears out over time. Fed replaces it constantly. This isn't a mass recall, deliberate, intentional sign of what has been done to our currency. You're taking Donald Trump off the currency. So no more gold coins with Donald Trump's face on it. We can do away with that.
- [40:01]
Adam Kinzinger
Nope, you can do away with that. And if you, I mean literally, if, if you have $1,000 in cash and 500 of it is Trump signed, there will be a program where you, it would be encouraged. You can walk to the bank, the bank will swap it out. The treasury works with the banks to do this. And yes, you're going to have a natural kind of, you know, throughput of this money anyway because it wears out. But the faster we can clean our system of it again. Is it symbolic? Sort of. But it also is stressing once again that we are a republic about the people we represent and not the people representing the people.
- [40:38]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, number four, now we're getting into some of the really meaty areas. The Department of Justice, the non maga Department of Justice needs to be given the responsibility to do something almost revolutionary by recent standards, enforce the Constitution on powerful people. Any willful documented violation, regardless of party, gets investigated, gets prosecuted if the evidence warrants it. Now, of course the right's gonna say, okay, there's the lawfare. Isn't this just tit for tat, more revenge? So talk to me about how this would be different than what Donald Trump is doing right now. Is that, of course, will be the argument. What about his we?
- [41:13]
Adam Kinzinger
What I would do is set up a very clear parameter which is, did somebody violate the Constitution? Did they violate the law? Is there a statute of limitations that applies? And are we within that statute of limitations? And are we fair and bipartisan? Where, you know, for instance, if a Democrat comes up, we will also pursue that as well. Because what we're saying here is that we're no longer going to look past the crimes of the powerful. The crimes of the powerful now are treated like the crimes of everybody. And just like if you're a, you know, a U.S. attorney in Chicago or in New York and you're going to set up a group of people that are going to look into the mob in the Mafia and how to take them down, we're going to do the same thing on the national level. We're going to look at the criminal mafia that existed in government. And we're going to hold them accountable. And I will make it very clear over and over again, this is not about political retribution. If somebody didn't break the law, or we just don't like them, or it's outside of the statute of limitations, they're free and clear. That's between them and God now. But if they did, part of restoring the honor of the republic and the fact that we are, you know, justice is blind and the poor and the rich are treated the same is to hold them accountable. And I gotta tell you, there's gonna be a whole hell of a lot to investigate.
- [42:35]
Charlie Sykes
I think, I think there is. And you get in the next one, you get into foreign bribes. But, but before we do that, I'm trying to remember who was the CEO? Was it Jamie Dimon was a major CEO explaining why his company would not be giving money for the Trump Ballroom because we have a lot of business with the government and it might look like influence penalty or bribery. And he very specifically made reference to the fact that there might be a Democratic Department of Justice that is going to enforce that kind of influence peddling or bribery laws. This would be something that I think Democrats should start signaling now basically to everybody that you need to understand. Now, Donald Trump can pardon a lot of his cronies and everything, but is Tim Cook gonna accept a pardon? Are they, you know, the heads of the big law firms going to accept a pardon? Is, you know, I don't know, Jeff Bezos, is he gonna accept a pardon? But to say that, no, when we get back in charge, anyone who has, you know, improperly tried to influence the government, you know, payoffs and everything will be vigorously investigated. I think might make people, you know, think twice. Okay. Number five, foreign bribes.
- [43:41]
Adam Kinzinger
Well, let me just say real quick. I'm glad you brought that up because that to me is essential, which is like, how do we stop the corruption now? And a lot of people feel helpless, and it does feel helpless. This is one way you signal that there will be penalty.
- [43:53]
Charlie Sykes
I think it's very important. Number five, foreign bribes. State Department needs to form a dedicated committee with one mission. Investigate every foreign government or entity, I assume that engaged in financial dealings with the Trump family or associates during his time in office. I think that's a hugely important thing because we know that there has been so much and it has polluted and corrupted not just our domestic politics, but perhaps our international foreign policy.
- [44:21]
Adam Kinzinger
Him. Yeah, 100%. It's making it clear again now. You think about our allies, for instance, like, I don't know, take the country of Georgia, although they have a corrupt government right now, but a small country that doesn't have the money or the influence of like a UAE or a Qatar right now, they feel left out to dry. And one of the things that we always understood as Americans is that if you're good people, you're fighting for the right cause, the United States would have your back. Doesn't mean we defend everybody military, but we have your back. The other thing, though, is just you foreign, corrupt foreign governments or entities influencing our politics in any way is just inherently extremely dangerous. And once we put that out there, you're like the last one signaling to these countries, you know, who think in horizons of 10 and 20 years, hey, Trump is out in two years. You better be thinking about what you're willing to do because you're going to pay a price. Price.
- [45:22]
Charlie Sykes
So let's talk about the jet. 747. The billion dollar flying bribe from Qatar. What happens to the jet?
- [45:30]
Adam Kinzinger
So listen for the.
- [45:31]
Charlie Sykes
Under the Kinzinger plan. The Kinzinger plan.
- [45:34]
Adam Kinzinger
Under The Kinzinger plan, $400 million Jet donated to Trump. And here's where people forget. He gets to take it when he leaves. It goes to the Trump library, but it doesn't say. They think about the Reagan library with the 707 on display. This doesn't say that the 747 gets cleaned out and goes on display. It's for his to use property, the library. By the way, the federal government is spending $1 billion to turn it into Air Force One right now, which will not be done by the time he's done being president and he's going to take it with him. I would seize it and I would either use it as Air Force One, if in fact it is qualified for that, or more importantly, I would either sell it or whatever and put those assets back to the taxpayer. And there is no world in which Trump could legally keep that if, if I was president or whoever the next president should be.
- [46:29]
Charlie Sykes
I love this line. The next president declares on day one that this, that this aircraft is the property of the American people, full stop. It gets reclaimed and either gets sold or it gets scrapped. A foreign government cannot give the American president a $400 million jet. That's not a gift, that's a down payment on infl. I think you can make that case further, strongly. Okay, number six, the highways. Any highway bearing his name is gone. Any landmark, bridge, tunnel, airport or plaza attached to his name, through political pressure rather than legitimate honor, should be stripped. Discuss. Easy.
- [47:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, perfect. Look, this is, this is the Peter Magyar in Hungary thing where he's basically said, there's a new sheriff in town. We're going to do this the right way. Same thing. Now, if Congress voted on something and it passed, you know, we'll, we'll deal with it then. But no Trump. I don't want Trump's name on anything when he passes away someday. You know, and we're 20 years past this and somebody wants to name something. The Trump Airport. Okay, maybe. But if I was president, whoever the next president is. Nope, no more no Trump name anywhere on anything public.
- [47:40]
Charlie Sykes
See, all this stuff is doable. This is the thing. This, this is do. I'll get to the heart questions in a moment. But you point out, Again, we're at 7, 8, 9 here. Any executive order that violated constitutional norms, reviewed and reversed. You could probably do that with the auto pen on day one. Any agency that was gutted or repurposed to serve personal political ends should be investigated. And, you know, the folks restored, any inspector general fired should have their cases reopened. Any career civil servant pushed out or blacklisted should be given a chance to come back. I mean, that's what restoration looks like. Okay, so the tough ones is, what do you do if he builds the big Arch of Trump? Do we tear that down or do we have, like a mass, Everybody gathers and just, like, urinates on it. What do we do with the arch?
- [48:25]
Adam Kinzinger
I would love a mass urination. That would be a great idea. Look, I think here's the question. Will the arch be complete? My guess is probably not. And if it's not complete, it's done, it's gone. Here's the other thing that pulls. Yeah, yeah, pull it down. The National Mall. You're, you know, the, the world isn't making more land. Okay. The National Mall is very limited in land. And, you know, we could have a World War III, a World War 4, and a World War 5 someday. For us to be filling up this Washington space with stuff that praises Donald Trump. No. And if it's built, you know, we could talk about, you know, maybe we do it to honor somebody else, but I still favor tearing it down. And same with the ballroom. If the ballroom's completed and, you know, there's the national security stuff under it that there supposedly is, that's one thing. And I'm not sure you want to then tear that down. But if it's not completed, then it, it doesn't get completed, because he cannot have anything like that, that he violated the law to get or, you know, on the. The national. On the arch. He fired the entire. Whatever it is, the Park Commission that votes on this, replaced it with all his people. I mean, this is not what it was supposed to be. And we're not Paris, so we are definitely.
- [49:44]
Charlie Sykes
Well, although Washington, D.C. is one of the most beautiful cities in the world, and so it ought not to be defaced. I'm with you on taking down the arch, because first of all, the arch is just too freaking big. It actually blocks the view of Arlington. There's something fundamentally, I think, offensive about that. The ballroom, I think renaming it. Renaming it the Barack Obama Ballroom or
- [50:10]
Adam Kinzinger
the Nelson Mandela Ballroom, he would love that.
- [50:13]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, something like that, I think, is, again, again, these things are all practical. They are doable, you know, And I think the key thing, though, is under the Kinzinger plan, this. This idea that we really have to have active restoration, that we just cannot figure that sort of things will heal itself. And I was talking to Ian Bassin from Protect Democracy on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and he said, you know, one of the things that we've learned watching authoritarian regimes is that once they fall, you know, you must find a way to have some kind of a truth and reconciliation commission. You have to hold the malefactors accountable, otherwise they're just going to come back and it won't fix the system. And this, of course, was one of the big mistakes, I think, of the Biden era. They thought it was gone. They thought that Trump was a parenthesis and we could go back to business as usual and restore all of those, you know, cherished norms. And now we find out that it was Biden who was the parenthesis in this era.
- [51:12]
Adam Kinzinger
And it was. It's understandable that they felt that way, right? I mean, it took me a while to come to grips with. Trump may actually successfully make a comeback. But Merrick Garland massively screwed up. He waited to investigate January six until our first hearing, you know, where we had already worked for a year. Had he. Yeah, the committee. Had he started when we started, Trump would be in an orange jumpsuit right now. And this is the thing, you know, we all love studying Lincoln. He's my favorite president. We love studying. When he said, you know, with malice to none. I don't know, looking back on history, there may need to have been a little malice at the end of the Civil War, because did we ever truly crush the Confederacy? I don't know. But There needs to be a little malice on this one, which is like, we will never have this in our country again. My son is 4 years old. When the next president takes office, he'll be seven. He's got a hundred years ahead of him of calling himself an American. And I want to make sure that there's not a single person that can come and do what Donald Trump did, because they'll know if they try, they will have seen what happens, and they know it's not worth it.
- [52:21]
Charlie Sykes
And speaking of your son, you, you, you. That children's books coming out any day now, right?
- [52:26]
Adam Kinzinger
I do.
- [52:27]
Charlie Sykes
This is, this is. That's. That's what heroes do, too.
- [52:31]
Adam Kinzinger
That's right. And I'll tell you, it's a fantastic book. And I'm not saying it because I wrote it. It. I, I was skeptical of what a children's book would turn out to be, you know, and been working on it a while. It is actually really, really good. And it's a, it's a solid lesson. And when I read the audiobook for it, it took me 15 minutes to get through one page because it's very personal to me. There's a. They, you know, they end up at Arlington. Spoiler alert. And it honors the guy whose name I wear on my wrist, Andreas o'. Keefe. And so get. You know, I would encourage people to order it not just because, you know, we want pre order sales to go well, but because it's, it's really a good book.
- [53:08]
Charlie Sykes
So. And the, and the pub date is what? It's May.
- [53:11]
Adam Kinzinger
It's in like two weeks?
- [53:12]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [53:13]
Adam Kinzinger
It's at the very beginning of May. Yeah. A week or two.
- [53:16]
Charlie Sykes
You can pre order it wherever you order books. Adam Kinsier, thank you so much for all your time today. It's been fun. Thank you. Thanks for the conversation.
- [53:22]
Adam Kinzinger
It was great. I enjoyed it.
- [53:24]
Charlie Sykes
And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this. This show is just another example of reminding all of us that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [53:50]
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