Kinzinger-Sykes, Part II: Vindication

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Kinzinger-Sykes, Part II: Vindication"

Title: Kinzinger-Sykes, Part II: Vindication
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Adam Kinzinger
Release Date: March 2, 2025
Platform: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes

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Introduction: A Clear Break from Traditional Conservatism

Charlie Sykes opens the conversation by expressing his frustration with the misconception that Donald Trump represents a mere extension of past Republican leaders like Ronald Reagan or John McCain. He emphasizes that Trump's actions mark a "complete clean break" from traditional Republican values. At [00:00], Charlie states:

"It's a complete clean break. There is not a continuum with there, is there?"

This sets the tone for a deep dive into the transformative shifts within the Republican Party under Trump's influence.

The Transformation of the Republican Party

Adam Kinzinger concurs with Charlie, highlighting the departure from genuine conservative principles to a party led by individuals who have "gone off the rails." At [01:24], Adam remarks:

"There is nothing conservative about him. He's gone off the rails."

He further contrasts the current state with the party's past, noting that historical Republicans were rooted in legitimate conservative ideologies such as a strong national defense and small government, which he believes have been overshadowed by the new direction.

Historical Context: Fringes and Shifts

Charlie provides a historical perspective, acknowledging that the Republican Party has always had its fringes—from the George Wallaces and Father Coughlins to Pat Buchanan and the Rand Paul wing. He reflects on how these groups were often dismissed as the "crazy uncle at the bar," but never anticipated they would seize control. At [02:42], he observes:

"There was always a kook fringe... you did not expect that they were going to take over."

This historical lens serves to illustrate how unprecedented the current transformation is, especially since until 2016, more moderate figures like John McCain and Mitt Romney continued to lead.

Betrayal of Republican Principles

The conversation shifts to the recent actions of Donald Trump regarding Ukraine, which both Charlie and Adam view as a betrayal of Republican values. Charlie questions the future actions of Republicans in Congress, considering the shifting stance on Ukraine support. At [04:38], he poses:

"What do other Republicans do now?"

Adam responds by expressing concern that Republicans are aligning with Kremlin propaganda, undermining long-standing alliances and national interests.

The Struggle of Staying True: Vindication and Isolation

Discussing personal experiences, Adam Kinzinger shares feelings of vindication for opposing Trump, despite facing isolation and repercussions within his own party. At [07:18], Adam confesses:

"I actually think I have a bigger forum to reach people now, being outside of Congress."

He reflects on the loneliness of standing against the tide and the fear that isolation brings, questioning whether being right without others acknowledging it truly constitutes vindication.

Faith and Politics: Navigating Conflicting Ideals

Charlie and Adam delve into the intersection of faith and politics, discussing how many trusted religious leaders have shifted their stance in support of Trumpism. At [13:04], Charlie shares:

"I actually think my faith has deepened and it's more important to me. But it feels harder than ever to go out and find someone to share it with."

Adam adds another layer by connecting fear of isolation to religious affiliation, emphasizing the added challenges faced by people of faith in this political climate.

Elon Musk's Influence on Government

The discussion pivots to Elon Musk's role in the current administration, critiquing his approach to government efficiency and the potential dangers of his unchecked power. Charlie questions the implications of Musk's decisions, such as slashing government programs and his influence over agencies like the FAA. At [16:30], he asks:

"Is he really going to take the FAA and make it a customer of Starlink? I mean, how does this work?"

Adam critiques Musk's approach, highlighting the risks of favoring his own companies over public institutions. At [17:57], he asserts:

"This guy is pure evil, I think."

Budget Cuts and Their Consequences

The conversation moves to the Republican-led budget cuts targeting entitlements and essential services. Both Charlie and Adam express concern over the lack of strategic planning, fearing that indiscriminate cuts will weaken vital government functions. Charlie elaborates on the impact of these cuts on services like Social Security and the VA, stating at [25:30]:

"You can't get someone to answer your question about the IRS because they're shutting down that call line."

Adam echoes these sentiments, warning of the long-term repercussions of such fiscal policies and predicting political fallout in future elections.

The Democratic Response and Future Prospects

Forecasting the political landscape, Adam suggests that despite internal issues, Democrats have the opportunity to capitalize on Republican missteps to gain voter support. At [30:52], he advises:

"Democrats need to be going into Republican districts and doing town halls after demanding the Republican does a town hall and then make it clear that they're hiding from the people."

Charlie adds that the Senate's procedural rules further complicate matters, questioning the Democrats' ability to block Trump appointees and urging a steadfast opposition.

Conclusion: Standing United Against Isolation

As the conversation wraps up, both hosts emphasize the importance of community and solidarity among those who resist the current political shifts. Charlie concludes with a reaffirmation of their shared stance:

"We are not crazy."

Adam echoes this sentiment, reinforcing the podcast's central theme of unity and resilience in the face of political adversity.

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Notable Quotes:

• Charlie Sykes [00:00]: "It's a complete clean break. There is not a continuum with there, is there?"

• Adam Kinzinger [01:24]: "There is nothing conservative about him. He's gone off the rails."

• Charlie Sykes [02:42]: "There was always a kook fringe... you did not expect that they were going to take over."

• Adam Kinzinger [07:18]: "I actually think I have a bigger forum to reach people now, being outside of Congress."

• Adam Kinzinger [17:57]: "This guy is pure evil, I think."

• Charlie Sykes [25:30]: "You can't get someone to answer your question about the IRS because they're shutting down that call line."

• Charlie Sykes [34:13]: "I echo that. I echo all that too."

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Final Thoughts:

"Kinzinger-Sykes, Part II: Vindication" offers a critical examination of the current state of the Republican Party, the influence of Donald Trump, and the emerging challenges posed by figures like Elon Musk. Through candid dialogue, Charlie Sykes and Adam Kinzinger explore themes of political integrity, isolation, and the struggle to uphold traditional conservative values in a rapidly changing landscape. The episode serves as a poignant reminder to listeners that unity and steadfastness are essential in navigating the tumultuous waters of modern American politics.

Transcript

[Charlie Sykes]

Foreign. Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes for part two of my conversation with Adam Kinzinger. Adam, you and I had a lot of raw emotion watching what happened in the Oval Office on Friday. You know, what has ground my gears over the years, A lot of the people who say, well, you know, Donald Trump is really no different than any other Republican. He's just a continuation of Ronald Reagan and George bush and John McCain and Mitt Romney. He's just a little bit cruder. It's just the mean tweets. And this week I was thinking, look, if it's not clear to you what a complete break from the past this is, and I'm not asking listeners to say that they, you know, agree with Ronald Reagan or thought that Ronald Reagan was a great president, but I want them to understand that it is absolutely inconceivable that any Republican president in my lifetime ever would have sided with Russia in the United nations in the way that Donald Trump did or humiliated one of our allies in public the way that Donald Trump just did. It's a complete clean break. There is not a continuum with there, is there?

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, it. Look, it. That drives me nuts, too, because it's like it's basically saying, you know, look, yeah, you and I can look back at what happened in 90 and 95 and, you know, and go on and say, okay, well, that certainly portends that maybe something else is going to happen. Or you can see the road map because you don't just go off the interstate all of a sudden. Right. There's a process. But that doesn't mean that what was happening early was somehow equivalent to what's happening now. There is legitimate right wing think, like conservative thinking, strong national defense, small government, you know, social safety nets that make sense. That's all legitimate. The problem is this guy there. It's actually nothing conservative about him. He's gone off the rails. And so this is, and I hope, you know, I guess I'm hearing it a little less, but that was one of my biggest frustrations is people saying, well, Adam, how come you never saw this coming? Well, I did see it coming, honestly, because we had these crazies in the party that we were constantly fighting back against, but we also weren't there yet until Donald Trump came along. So, yeah, like, look, this is this guy. There's nothing conservative about him. And I would argue American Republicans in the past have actually been conservative. So we're far night and away from where we ever were.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, I mean, there was never a monolithic conservative movement or Republican Party in the past, there was always a kook fringe. There was always an isolationist fringe. I always thought of them as kind of a recessive gene, you know, and we told the story of how they tried to, you know, expel the John Birchers and the kkk. There's always been a push back and forth. You look back on, you know, where this all came from. There were the George Wallaces of the past, the Father Coughlins of the past back in the 1930s, Pat Buchanan in the early 1990s. I remember having really strong arguments with the Buchanan wing of the party, with the Rand Paul wing of the party. And again, you sort of knew they were the crazy uncle at the bar. You did not expect that they were going to take over. And up until 2016, the center kind of held. You would have upsurges of some crazy candidate like, you know, Herman Cain or Michele Bachmann, but. But ultimately, you would settle on someone like a John McCain or a Mitt Romney until 2016. But I just want to emphasize that this week, what Donald Trump is doing with Ukraine is such a betrayal of everything that Republicans claimed they were for. So I guess the question is now, now what happens? What do you think Republicans in Congress will do? Because up until about five minutes ago, there was still a majority of Republicans, or at least half of Republicans, who were still kind of supportive of Ukraine, who didn't buy the Russian propaganda. And now it's not just that Donald Trump is. Is pulling back, it's that they are parroting Kremlin propaganda lines. And even though we have been warning about this for months, you and I, it's still shocking to hear it. So what do other Republicans do now?

[Adam Kinzinger]

It's like the American Boone Party wins, right? And now all of a sudden, we're sitting here going, I guess we're defending Nazism. And, you know, and so look, I guess my hope right now is that, you know, they always say with presidencies, like, you know, for a little bit of time, they actually make stuff happen, and then they hit a point where stuff happens to them. You know, with Biden, it was the Afghanistan pullout, and basically he couldn't affect anything after that point. We may be there right now with Trump, which would be good for the country, frankly, but I think the question is really, okay, those few people, Fitzpatrick, Brian Fitzpatrick, you know, Bacon, those people that take the Ukraine thing very seriously, and I believe they do, are they willing to put everything on the line? Now, here's the thing, and here's the question for them, because honestly, they will listen into stuff like this. The question for them is, okay, are you willing to just put that on the line on a vote for Ukraine funding like I'd be for. Please vote for Ukraine funding, or are you willing to put it on the line to the point of saying, I will vote against every Republican bill that comes to the floor until the President relents on this? And Charlie, you know, this is how the Freedom Caucus attained so much power, because they were literally willing to blow themselves up on the floor of the House. And we ultimately relented to them, we being the general party, this is the only way to play the game. But I don't know, I think again, you can convince so many of these people, they can look in the mirror and convince themselves of anything and say, well, I disagree with Trump on Ukraine, but I can't go against them because, you know, wokeism and transgender whatever. And so I think that's the moment we're in, you know, But I do believe you are starting to see on some of the right wing media figures, they're starting to go like, WTF is happening here? Right? They're a little concerned.

[Charlie Sykes]

I've seen them do this before and then they always come home. I mean, this is the thing, I guess we've been doing this long enough that I've seen this pattern where it's like, this is disgraceful. This is awful. And then a month later, they'll be back on. I mean, whether you're talking about the National Review or whether you're talking about people like Eric Erickson or you're talking about the Wall Street Journal editorial board, they all find their way back at some point. And what you're asking them to do, though, is to commit political suicide. And they're looking at themselves and going, hey, you know, guys, if we do this, if we stand up for the west, if we stand up for democracies against autocracy, we're going to end up like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. And.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Well, look, I agree, because I, you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Know, and that's not so bad, guys. It's not so bad. The water's okay in here.

[Adam Kinzinger]

That's. Yeah, that's the point is like, I, I, you know, yes, I committed political suicide. But I look and say I every day, almost every day I thank God that I'm not in Congress. And I mean, I miss Congress like how it used to be. But I look at what's happening, I'm like, I could not imagine being there today. I actually think I have a bigger forum to reach people now, being outside of Congress.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Kinzinger]

And I. And I look. And I also say, you know, the other thing is I took my stand on something that I think really mattered. Right. Even though so far we're kind of losing the message we're on. I think ultimately we do win on January 6 in democracy. But, like, that was the thing that I made the decision to make my stand on. And I got to tell you, Charlie, the crazy thing is everybody, when they go into Congress, they imagine or daydream about a moment where they're kind of like, Mr. Smith goes to Washington. They stand alone, they do a really hard thing, and they go home with their head held high. But very few actually do it because it's hard. Yeah, everybody thinks about this.

[Charlie Sykes]

Doesn't that get beaten out of them in their first term or so when.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, probably. Probably when all of a sudden you want the comforts in the title. But I actually got the ability, I got the. The chance to be a Mr. Smith. And I got to tell you, it's. It's. I actually honestly feel lucky about that, you know, to be able to.

[Charlie Sykes]

Look, I. I think you are, because I think, you know, one of the great, I think, lessons of life ought to be that, you know, you will eventually look back on your life and the choices you made, and it will look very different than it did in the moment. And I know that people who are, you know, state representatives, state senators, governors, senators, congressmen, think they are, you know, all that. But the reality is that we all get forgotten much, much faster, Much, much faster than we all think. And you look back and you say, was that really worth it? Was it really worth it that I did that? So let me ask you this question, since we're doing this kind of. This kind of political psychology here. I had an interview with a Canadian radio station this weekend, and obviously they are. They're going through a lot, trying to figure out what is happening, what is happening with the United States, why are they treating us this way? Why are they doing this to us? How far is it going to go? And she was asking in the midst of all. So what are your emotions watching everything that's happening right now? And I was sitting there and I was trying to process what to say about it, and then she said, do you feel vindicated? And I thought, wow, yeah, I actually do. I'm not saying I feel good about it, because I don't. But this is also one of those moments where amidst all of the defeat and all of The. All of the outrages. I think that those of us who've spoken up against Trump over the years and who've been derided and, you know, lost friends, lost jobs, treated it as irrelevant. At least you can say, you know what? I may not be in the room, but I was right, and I would rather be right than relevant right now. And I was gonna bounce this off you, Adam, because at some point, it's been rough, but there is a certain vindication for the people who said, oh, you guys are exaggerating. You have Trump derangement syndrome. It's like, no, man, this is what we tried to tell you.

[Adam Kinzinger]

I, you know, it's. Yes, in a sense, I feel vindicated because it's obvious, right? It's like, it's obvious. But I think what I struggle with, Charlie, is like, you know, if you're vindicated in a forest and nobody's around to agree with you, are you really vindicated? Right. Like, I mean, you know, I've got a close family member I haven't talked to in six months, and, you know, my feeling has been, you know, maybe there's a chance that this person will recognize how bad Donald Trump is and come around. You know, I think about that. What if nobody ever recognizes how bad he is? So I feel vindicated in that I know I can look and say. I know I can look and say what I predicted to happen happened. So it's not like I called it wrong. So I didn't, you know, jump on the grenade on January six, and actually, Trump ended up being a great president. Right?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Adam Kinzinger]

So I feel vindicated on that front. But I think my concern is just, are people going to be willing to change their view on this guy, or is he. Is he so tied up in their identity that their identity is now something you can never confront? And it's like, if I came to you and said, you know, whatever it is that you take very serious about your identity and I try to attack that, you'll react violently to that?

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, no, no.

[Adam Kinzinger]

That's what I worry about.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I worry about that, too. But on the other hand. On the other hand, I can't control that. I can only control what. What I have said, what I have said and what I do. And maybe the country doesn't come around to this in a while. Does that opinion make us less right? Does. Does it mean that we shouldn't have have done it? I also think, though, that what you're articulating is this sense of isolation, which. Which I think is. Is Crucial. And I think it's one of the reasons why we do podcasts like this, why you and I. Why you have a substack newsletter. I have a substack newsletter. We go to conferences like Principals first, which I missed last week. It's because people need to remember they're not alone. And this is very, very powerful because I think that that sense of isolation in your family, in your community, intellectually, is very, very powerful. And it's particularly in an authoritarian moment where all of the institutions, everybody else is giving up and compromising, you're kind of thinking, is it me? Is it me? Am I doing something wrong? And I think that, again, you're. We're not alone in this.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, that's. You always say you're not the crazy ones, right? Yeah, we're not the crazy ones. Look, I. I think I'm going to add even another layer onto that, which is like, I. First off, I think people fear more than they fear death. They fear isolation. Like, 8 out of 10 adults will jump in front of a train to save a toddler, but 8 out of 10 adults won't be willing to be isolated and make that choice. Secondly, like, I add the layer of the church onto this, right? Like, I. I haven't. I started going to church again a few months ago because I found a church, I live in Texas now, here, that is sane on Trump, right? The pastor was. Was very outspoken on Trump in a good way. And so I'm kind of feeling a home there. But I didn't go to church for three years because I'm sitting there going, you know, I have all these people that I respected, you know, who supposedly, you know, worship God and talk about the Beatitudes and all that shit, and all of a sudden, they're backing literally the direct opposite of the Beatitudes. That is something that, for me, personally, I had to work through, because I went through a process 10 years ago of deconstructing my faith. What do I really believe? What don't I believe? And then I built that faith up, and all of a sudden, the people I trust in are going the wrong way. And. And that, for me, has been a struggle. And. And I guess I'm coming out the other side of that. But I will say to a lot of the. A lot of the people of faith that are dealing with this, that's a whole nother layer of challenge on top of it.

[Charlie Sykes]

No, And I know a lot of people are going through this. This is something that David French has talked about. You know, what's happened to him in, in his churches and others. And I have to say that I think I've talked about the fact that I'm an only child, so I don't work and play well with others, but. So I'm not necessarily a joiner here. But I will say in the last few years, my faith has deepened and it's more important to me. But it feels harder than ever to go out and find someone to share it with because of this disconnect between what I think Christianity is and what Christians are out in the world. I mean, I would love to have a conversation at some point with someone like Cardinal Dolan, who used to be archbishop here in Milwaukee. We were very, very good friends. Wonderful guy. And yet he's decided to make his peace with Trumpism. I really, I know I want to go through this with someone like that, but I'm not. I'm not ready to do that. Okay, so having gone that far, let's step back and do some actual punditry in politics here. Let's talk about Elon Musk and the week that Elon Musk is having and the power that Elon Musk has. Shows up at CPAC apparently somewhat enhanced. I don't know whether you saw those videos. I do. With the dark glasses, wielding the chainsaw on the, you know, on the stage. And everybody loves it. And yet a lot of Republicans seem to be realizing, guys, we're all for small government, right? We all talk a good game, but this guy is taking a chainsaw to the government. And it's not clear that he has any idea what he's doing. For example, he shows up at this cabinet meeting and he says, yeah, we're going to make some mistakes. Like, we fucked up. We. We actually accidentally fired all the people who protected us from Ebola.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Ebola.

[Charlie Sykes]

He said, oh, but, but we fixed it. Which was a lie because he didn't. So give me your sense of, like, Elon Musk is, is the most powerful person in this administration. Your thoughts on Elon?

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, look, I was glad ultimately to see him on that stage with the chainsaw, because I'm like, that is the ad. That's the ad in two years. Because here's the thing we all know. And, you know, why is it that we have not really cut the size of government in the past? Because it sounds good, but it's unpopular. And when you cut it, there are actually things you're going to cut. Like they basically, they're knocking out the National Weather Service. Wait till one tornado comes in this tornado season where they didn't have enough people that were able to catch it, they didn't trigger the sirens. And you have flat neighborhoods in Oklahoma now. And so, you know, all that sounds great, but when it happens, then it starts affecting people's lives. I saw today like the national parks with overflowing trash. And that's going to start having an impact. And here's the, here's the thing. If Elon Musk was some, you know, dude that made like his income was his government salary and he was the guy put in charge of finding efficiencies in government, that's one thing. This guy's will be the world's first trillionaire. And he is standing there basically on the backs of the American people, by the way, who gave him government subsidies in the form of SpaceX and, and Tesla that allowed him to build his.

[Charlie Sykes]

Network of all time. Yeah, he's been feeding at the trough big time. $38 billion in tax break subsidies.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yep. That never would have come, never would have come without the taxpayer help. And he is gleefully cutting what, what, what taxpayers are receiving from their government. And I got to tell you, if all shit hits the fan with him, he can flee the United States of America. He's got nothing to be concerned with. But he's going to stand there and tell you what the government can and can't do for you. But he has his half a trillion dollars and understand he doesn't care if the National Weather Service doesn't predict a tornado because he can hop in his spaceship and launch to California and get away from the tornado when the vast majority of people can't. This is the thing and I believe when Democrats or whoever it is, because the Democrats suck terribly right now, whenever we beat Donald Trump in terms of the messaging and we win back the middle, the white middle class, it's going to be on the back of people like Elon Musk who they look at and go, you don't have my best interest at heart. I work harder than you ever worked. Elon. I get it. You sleep on a, on the floor sometimes the of the executive office. Great, awesome. But you don't work near as hard as I am. You've never sweat as hard as I have. And I think that is going to be the downfall of the administration, I hope. Because this guy is pure evil, I think.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean. And also it cuts against the image of the populist administration. You know, Donald Trump runs. I'm going to be the voice of the little guy and Then he stocks his administration with billionaires. And of course, the face of this administration now is this arrogant billionaire who again has sucked at the public trough and is now cutting the benefits for poor Americans, if you want it. It's almost a cartoonishly easy issue, I would think, for Democrats to raise. But also, if you are a Republican, what you, I think you also have to realize that, number one, he doesn't understand the damage he's causing. Number two, he doesn't give a shit about it. And number three, he is prepared to totally trash them. I think it's interesting. The Republicans pass their budget resolution by one or two votes and it's going to be, it's going to be a brutal fight because they have to cut Medicaid and everything. Elon Musk is tweeting against it now. He's got his own foreign policy. He's got his own foreign policy, his own domestic policy. And it's like, who do you answer to, man? I mean, really.

[Adam Kinzinger]

And here's, here's another thing that I think could be a great thing. And again, it's not going to be the Democrats because they're scared. They remind me of Republicans at the very beginning of 2009 when I went to look at run for Congress and I was talking to Republican leaders and they're like, we'll never win an election again. Why come talk to us? But anyway, here's what they should be saying. Hey, Doge, great, fine, you're cutting the National Weather Service. We're just curious, when are you going to get to the NASA SpaceX contract? When are you going to get to the, the Tesla stuff? Because obviously you're going to cut people there, right? You know, look, I'm a huge fan of space. I love NASA. But if I was Democrats right now, and me and saying this is myself is like, do we really need to be spending money to go to Mars if we can't afford the National Weather Service, if we can't afford Veterans Suicide Hotline, if we can't afford to pick up the trash around, you know, Mount Rushmore, if we can't do that, should we really be trying to go to Mars? And look, I want to go to Mars and I want to go to the moon, but those are legitimate questions that the average middle class voter is going to look at and say, yeah, that's bullshit. You're going to, you're going to cut my stuff, but you're unwilling to after. And now, you know, Tesla getting this $400 million more than likely armored Tesla contract is just insane.

[Charlie Sykes]

And that's, that's the other thing about Elon Musk is not only is he slashing all these programs, but the grift, the graft is out there, the self dealing. I mean it was obviously was a conflict of interest bringing somebody like this in to government, but the fact that it certainly looks like he's feathering his own nest. Let's talk about the faa, because middle class people are also asking like, are you going to screw up the, the air traffic control system? You're a pilot, you obviously follow this carefully. The story that Elon Musk now wants to have the FAA enter into a contract with Starlink, his own company. So is he taking over? Is he really going to take the FAA and make it a customer of Starlink? I mean, how does this work? Probably first of all, the corruption aside, how worried should we be?

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, we should be really worried because this is exactly, I mean this isn't based. Okay, like if the faa, I think they have a Verizon contract now and you know, put it out for bid, fine. If Starlink comes back and they're the best. Even though I think the government used to be very careful about the monopoly it's building with Starlink and with, with SpaceX, but that's one thing, but to just come in and say, hey, I own Starlink and by the way, they're better because I know they're better and so they're going to do it. The problem is, Charlie, is, you know, people like you and I will be outraged when he does this, but the people in power don't care and the people following them don't care. They think Elon Musk is a God and that if he's doing it, it obviously must be the best thing. But listen, the faa, they're overworked. The, and the, the controllers, I, I still fly every, every week or two and they're the best out there. They treat my as, as fairly as they treat a United aircraft. They're the best at it, but they're overworked. I mean, I fly through some sectors where the radio doesn't stop and it's the same controller sending people to different places. And now they're cutting FAA personnel. I mean, this is, this is a recipe for disaster. And what happens is if you're truly a fiscal conservative like I am, what ends up happening is we cut and then we overreact and over plus up to make up for the damage it's, that's done. Imagine another crash at DCA for instance. Or any airport that was controllers are oversaturated, what's going to be the reaction? We hire back five times as many controllers because we got to be the politicians that are solving the problems. That's what's unfiscally conservative about any of this.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean, look, I describe myself as a fiscal conservative, and I don't have any illusions that the government cannot be cut or that there can't be savings. The question is that you, it's whether you do it with a scalpel or whether you do it with a flamethrower. I mean, certainly you go in, you find the areas where that are inefficient. You prioritize things. They're not prioritizing it. If you basically say that we're going to fire every probationary worker all across the federal government, well, okay, so you're going to weed out some dead wood, but you're going to be cutting into muscle. And I think that's what's happening. And I think some of these cuts at the VA are generating attention. Donald Trump has said he's not going to cut Social Security benefits. I actually think he's too smart to cut Social Security benefits. But they have massive cuts in the Social Security staff. And as someone who actually gets Social Security, I will tell you that one of my biggest surprises was realizing how good the staff was in answering questions, taking care of problems, actually being proactive about it. And when you have millions of people who suddenly can't get their questions answered, when you can't get someone to answer your question about the IRS because they're shutting down that call line, when the veterans can't get someone to again solve a problem for them, that's going to be a problem in and of itself. And that's going to happen, I think, relatively quickly.

[Adam Kinzinger]

It is. And, and you take veterans, we're the highest maintenance organization in the world, right? We, we always demand everything now. And I'm now a VA disability recipient, so I get a check every month for mine was the Burn Pit exposure. Right. We passed that in Congress. And, and so VA benefits have grown very fast because of the Burn Pit Exposure Act. But ultimately that was America's fault because we decided instead of putting incinerators in, we were just going stuff out in the open. And so all of us inhaled this stuff. But it's going through a glut right now to get it through the system. And you're seeing some of these kind of bro veteran type, not the bro veterans, but these bros out there, the tech bros Going after things like veterans disability payment, because it is a huge chunk and it's, it's a lot of money. And, but they're saying, oh, do they really deserve this? And so, yeah, I think there's going to be some blowback, especially when you think about that. The veteran community probably voted 70, you know, 7 to 3 for Trump in this case.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay. So actually, it was interesting. I saw one study, I think it was morning consult saying that the, that Trump had won the Medicaid recipient vote, which is going to be interesting because, okay, now you've been, you've been in these caucuses, you've been in Congress. They had to really knock some heads together to get 217 votes for this, this resolution, this budget resolution. They want to have reconciliation. It clearly relies on $800 billion in cuts to Medicaid. Somebody was telling me just growth in Medicaid, whatever, it's $800 billion. But they are obviously so queasy about it that the resolution doesn't even mention Medicaid. It just sort of says this committee has to find the thing. So that would seem to me to be a tell that if you won't even say what you want to cut, you kind of know that cutting it is political poison. So tell me what's going on in the minds of a Republican representative who wants to stay on the good side of Donald Trump but also wants to stay in Congress when you have a choice like that coming down the road.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Oh, I've lived this life before, I can tell you very well. So the budget resolution is nothing. It is, it's kind of considered a blueprint for like, here's what we had theorized. But you have to pass this resolution in order to do reconciliation. Basically, that is just where the Republicans can do everything they want and get around the filibuster. So that's why they passed it. Now they, again, they have to make this resolution be budget neutral or whatever the rules are that they put on. So you do a lot of magic math. It's where you say, we're going to cut $800 billion from entitlements, but not any entitlements that you know or you get. Right? And it's all just bs. And so I saw Speaker Johnson, for instance, on CNN the other day, and he's like, oh, no, no. Fraud, waste and abuse, okay, but $800 billion, fraud, waste and abuse, okay, that doesn't exist. Right. But you can just keep saying that. And so each of these members were, especially ones in tough districts, were like, probably had to be very convinced to do this. Like, you're going to lose your election if we don't do what Donald Trump wants. This is the only way through it. But I guarantee you they are scared to death now because that one vote they took is. Now, if in fact, you know, entitlement cuts end up becoming a potent issue like they usually are, is going to be the thing Democrats run against Republicans on, and it will affect them. And I mean, I do think you're going to see a blue wave this year and next year. I think that's probably despite the Democratic Party. It's just more opposition to the Republican Party. But certainly these are the votes that are going to kill them. So if I'm in that situation, I'd like to think that had I been there, I would have voted no on them. But I also know the pressure that comes down. And I can see the people that voted Jess, and be like, well, whatever it is, they brought the fire on them.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes. Okay, what's the. I should have in front of me the name of the congresswoman from Indiana who Trump was screaming at.

[Adam Kinzinger]

That wasn't her name Sparks? Oh, no, the. Yeah, I don't have it in front of me.

[Charlie Sykes]

No, no, that's her. That's Sparks. Yeah. She said, I'm a firm no. And then everybody in the cloak room could hear Trump on the speakerphone screaming at her, telling her she's a, you know, a fake Republican. And Elon Musk is going to come in. And of course she flipped around. This is the kind of pressure that people are under right now. And the reality is, is that, that if you buck Trump on one of these things, you will be primaried and you probably will lose if you vote for it. Pretty good chance you'll lose in November to a Democrat.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah. Well, this is like, this is like telling your wife. Yeah. It's like, it's like telling David Koresh, you can't have your wife. Right. And this is. Okay, that. And it's like. And you look and say, well, would I rather lose a primary or rather lose a general election? Well, you'd rather lose a general election because you're still in the good graces of the Republican Party if you lose a primary job. Yeah. Yeah. You still are in the good graces. And so, yeah, I mean, like, it goes back to the beginning of you don't want to be kicked out of your tribe. All these people have in their minds if they do lose their congressional seat, they'll go make money on some griff somewhere like Donald Trump, they can start some freaking coin.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay? So yes, we can all, we can all sell bit bitcoins. Okay, so you said this a couple of times where the Democrats are bad at this, that the Democrats are scared. What should the Democrats be doing that they're not doing? They don't have the votes to actually stop it. So what, what, what would you recommend they do?

[Adam Kinzinger]

Yeah, here's the thing. So they kind of do have the votes to stop it if they can put intense pressure on two or three, three members of Congress. Right, right. So that's how they have to be thinking. Here's the thing. And I think the reason I'm still bitter about this is Trump wins in November. You know, people like you and I are screaming what they're going to be doing come January.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right?

[Adam Kinzinger]

January comes, they do Doge, they do all this stuff and the Democrats are caught flat footed. I mean, a King Jeffries tweets, a Bible verse like, you know, God's still in control. It's like, yeah, I agree, God's still in control, but you had three months to actually get in control with God. And so, you know, it was things like when they were being locked out of buildings, they should have every day gone to those buildings and said, We're U.S. congressmen with oversight responsibility, you will let us in. And when the security guard doesn't let them in, which by law they cannot do, by the way, they can't block them, they should have walked down to the D.C. courthouse, gotten an injunction and walked into that building and watched what Doge is doing. That second week or that third week when everything was going down, down, Charlie, the Congress was out of session. Now the Democrats should have said, we're not going to sit in our district for 10 days. Every Democrat that can come back to D.C. we're making a statement here. We're going to do press conferences without somebody there shaking their cane. We're going to go to these buildings, we're going to do that stuff. What America wants to see is fight. And so we saw two weeks ago the town hall meeting, one in your state of Wisconsin that are starting to pick up. This is how the Tea Party, as you remember, started in these town halls. So Democrats need to be going into Republican districts and doing town halls after demanding the Republican does a town hall and then make it clear that they're hiding from the people. Look, that is what you can do now, right? Obviously the long term game is you have to win in two years. But you put this intense pressure and you start to turn the feeling of these members of Congress that maybe they do have to worry about a little more than Donald Trump or their own base. Those are the things America just wants to see you fighting right now.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. And also, and then the Senate, you know, has its own arcane rules where one senator can, can make a lot of trouble. Tommy, Tommy Tuberville held up all of these promotions, you know, single handedly. And I think that it's legitimate to say, well, what power do the Democrats have? And is there any excuse for any Democrat ever to vote to confirm any Trump appointee at this point?

[Adam Kinzinger]

No, I don't think so. I don't think so.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't think so.

[Adam Kinzinger]

And you make it clear, like, look, you guys, yeah, this appointee may be decent, but he's part of your administration, which has made it clear that you don't care about, about the Constitution. You want to separate the firewall between the military and political leadership. You want to do this stuff. So we will not support your nominees. I think that's basic. By the way, that's what Republicans did to Joe Biden. I think.

[Charlie Sykes]

Exactly. No, this, this, this is not rock. I, it has occurred to me as I watch some of the, some, not all of the Democratic senators is that they are, they're really poster children for term limits at a certain point. I mean, there are some of them, like Chris Murphy, who I think have done a really, really good job, but there are some of them who just, it's like it, you, you, you've just been, you just been here too, too long.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Remember the Chuck Schumer chant, We won't rest.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like, we will win. We will win. Yeah, that will go down in the annals of just sort of pathetic waving your hands, whatever. Kissinger, I am so grateful. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for making this two part conversation. On Friday. We talked about the shit show in the Oval Office, but we had to continue this conversation. So we'll have to have you back very, very soon. And again, thank you for all of the people that subscribe to Adam who have been subscribing to my newsletter to the contrary. And anyone that subscribes to my newsletter to the contrary really needs to subscribe to Adam's newsletter as well.

[Adam Kinzinger]

Well, I echo that. I echo all that too.

[Charlie Sykes]

And remember, we do this several times a week because now more than ever, we have to remind ourselves that we are not crazy.