To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes

Episode: Michael Scherer: Inside RFK Jr.’s Rise

Date: November 25, 2025
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Michael Scherer (The Atlantic staff writer)

Overview

In this episode, Charlie Sykes interviews Michael Scherer about his in-depth Atlantic cover story on Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.), who has become one of the most influential—and polarizing—figures in American science and health policy. The conversation delves into RFK Jr.’s personal and political journey, his impact on public trust in science, the nature of his relationship with the Trump administration, and questions surrounding his controversial beliefs and personal life.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Genesis and Context of the Story

• Scherer’s Initial Encounters with RFK Jr.: Michael Scherer first met RFK Jr. in 2023 while he was launching his Democratic presidential bid. Their initial engagement was fraught—RFK Jr. was furious over Scherer’s early reporting and accused him of being part of a conspiracy. Nevertheless, an extended, surprisingly candid exchange followed, leading to continuing contact and eventual collaboration.

  • Quote: “He basically laid out his case that I had been co opted by the sort of powers that be in Washington... that whether I knew it or not, I was serving sort of evil forces in approaching work as I did. And it was a fascinating letter.” (05:04, Scherer)

• Purpose of Scherer’s Story: Scherer aimed to understand and explain the core motivations behind RFK Jr.’s crusade against the scientific and health establishment, and what his rise reveals about broader institutional failures in science and politics.

  • Quote: “My premise was... he symbolized a sort of broader breakdown that's happening in our country... The scientific process, at least at the federal level, is basically broken at this point.” (06:03, Scherer)

The Fragmentation and Politicization of Science

• Was Science Broken Before RFK Jr.?

  • Scherer and Sykes discuss at length whether RFK Jr. is the architect of the breakdown in science or merely a symptom. Scherer points out that distrust in institutions predates Kennedy’s ascent, exacerbated by COVID-19 and politicized responses to public health crises.
  • Quote: “Who broke it? I mean, yes, Kennedy is doing a lot to dismantle institutional science right now... But he is also doing that because Trump was elected on a plat with him on stage, with him saying, I will do these things when I get elected.” (13:18, Scherer)

• Conspiracy Theories and Public Confidence:

  • Sykes presses Scherer on whether figures like RFK Jr. have actively undermined science. Scherer doesn’t shy away from acknowledging this, but insists the roots are systemic, not solely personality-driven.

The Challenge of "Normalization"

• Should We Take RFK Jr. Seriously?
  • Sykes challenges Scherer on whether deep reporting might inadvertently “normalize” RFK Jr. Scherer makes a nuanced argument for the importance of understanding even dangerous ideas in a polarized society.
  • Quote: “You should take RFK seriously. Absolutely. He's the Secretary of Health and Human Services... You should not take anything he says at face value... But the only way off of this path we’re on... is to try and seek understanding of what is actually going on and not to get caught up in like the names of crazy anti vax…” (15:32, 16:48, Scherer)

Vaccines, Public Health, and Consequences

• Kennedy’s Vaccine Agenda:

  • Scherer details how Kennedy has slashed budgets while redirecting billions into investigating alleged links between vaccines and chronic diseases, a consensus most scientists reject.
  • Quote: “What he's doing... is saying, I believe there is evidence to suggest hidden dangers caused by vaccines... For them [the scientific community], it's the equivalent of: do we study whether bananas cause autism?” (18:01, Scherer)

• Life-and-Death Consequences:

  • When Sykes asks directly if Kennedy’s policies could mean children will die, Scherer bluntly agrees.
  • Quote: “Yes, there's plenty of reason to believe that if you decrease vaccination rates, more children will die. That's absolutely true.” (18:01, Scherer)

• Internal Debate: Scherer describes his in-depth conversations with Kennedy, who maintains there is insufficient research on vaccine safety—claims dismissed by mainstream science.

The Trump-Kennedy Dynamic

• A Chaotic Partnership:

  • Scherer shares stories illustrating the tension and synergy between Trump and Kennedy, offering a window into their bizarre, chaotic, yet mutually advantageous relationship.
  • Tylenol Incident: Kennedy cautioned Trump against rashly tweeting about a tentative link between Tylenol and autism, but Trump forged ahead anyway.
    • Quote: “Trump says Don’t take it. Don’t take it. You know, it’s terrible. Whatever you do, don’t take Tylenol, which is exactly what Kennedy and his team did not want to happen in that moment.” (23:12, Scherer)

• Mutual Admiration and Utility:

  • Kennedy shifts from seeing Trump as malignant to viewing him as a “truth-telling populist” fighting entrenched powers.
  • Quote: “In Kennedy’s mind, he makes that transition to convince himself that... Trump was not incurious and idiotic, that he was actually very bright... but also that Trump’s fundamental role was as a populist crusader against the corporate oligarchy.” (39:19-41:28, Scherer)

• Longevity of the Alliance: Scherer doubts this alignment is permanent but notes Kennedy remains highly valued by Trump for now, especially given the electoral advantage his public persona brings.

  • Quote: “I can count on one hand the people who have worked for Trump who have come out of it... not being deeply critical of Trump.” (42:15, Scherer)

RFK Jr.’s Troubled Personal and Family History

• Addiction and Redemption:
  • Kennedy’s personal struggles with addiction deeply inform his worldview and his almost religious sense of mission.
  • Quote: “He really, truly believes he has been to hell. He has lived in hell of addiction. He still struggles with it every day.” (27:53, Scherer)
• Estrangement from the Kennedy Family:
  • Kennedy is largely isolated from relatives, who have publicly opposed his confirmation and described him as an unhealthy influence.
• Scandals and Sex Addiction:
  • Discussion of his affair with Olivia Nuzzi (and other scandals) underscores Kennedy’s unapologetic, “post-scandal” persona.
  • Quote: “He does still consider himself a sex addict. So that’s the starting point.” (32:05, Scherer)
• Absence of Accountability: There is widespread resignation that scandals no longer have the career-ending effect they once might have.
  • Quote: “He seems to be almost this avatar: It doesn’t matter what you find out about me... there will be Fallout... but won’t touch me.” (34:05, Sykes)
  • Quote: “We’re definitely in a new era, I would say... the American people’s tolerance for this stuff has changed.” (34:36, Scherer)

Broader Takeaways and the Importance of Understanding

• The Stakes:
  • Scherer implores listeners to seek understanding, not agreement, and to truly grapple with the messy details of our divides.
  • Quote: “We have a responsibility as Americans in this system to hold ourselves together as a country. And the only way that's going to happen is by having conversations and trying to seek understanding, not agreement, understanding...” (44:33, Scherer)
• Warning for the Future:
  • Ignoring RFK Jr. and similar populist uprisings will only strengthen them.
  • Quote: “The alternative is not that if you ignore Kennedy, he goes away. If you ignore Kennedy, he becomes HHS secretary. You have to actually engage with these ideas.” (46:39, Scherer)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On RFK Jr’s Motivations:
  “There’s something ferocious about his desire to claim the birthright that was lost to him.” (29:07, Scherer)

• On the Decay of Institutions:
  “There is a breakdown in authority in this country and significant concern about whether the American people are being lied to, whether the leaders are actually acting in their best interest. And that is much broader than science.” (11:48, Scherer)

• On Normalizing RFK Jr.:
  “You should take RFK seriously. Absolutely. He's the Secretary of Health and Human Services... You should not take anything he says at face value.” (14:55, Scherer)

• On Consequences:
  “He seems to sort of embody this post scandal era where... there will be Fallout... but won’t touch me.” (34:05, Sykes)

Timed Index of Essential Segments

• RFK Jr.’s approach to the Atlantic story & initial encounters: (02:26 – 05:09)
• Science’s institutional breakdown—cause or effect?: (09:58 – 13:47)
• Debate on normalizing conspiracy theories: (13:47 – 16:48)
• Will children die if vaccines are undermined?: (16:48 – 20:57)
• Tylenol, Trump, and science communication breakdown: (20:57 – 24:40)
• RFK Jr.’s addiction, family estrangement, and personal quest: (24:40 – 30:44)
• Scandals, sex addiction, and “post-scandal” politics: (32:05 – 36:17)
• On Trump-Kennedy and political symbiosis: (37:10 – 43:52)
• What listeners and readers should take away: (43:52 – 46:39)

Tone and Closing

The conversation is incisive, sometimes incredulous, but ultimately empathetic—committed to grappling with a complicated and divisive figure, and even more, an era of public fragmentation. Both Sykes and Scherer resist easy answers, emphasizing the uncomfortable but vital work of public understanding.

End of summary.