Olivia Troye: Military Parades and Doll Rationing

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Olivia Troye: Military Parades and Doll Rationing"

To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Host: Charlie Sykes
Guest: Olivia Troye
Release Date: May 4, 2025
Description: You are not the crazy ones.

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Introduction

In the May 4, 2025 episode of To The Contrary, host Charlie Sykes engages in a profound discussion with Olivia Troye, a former White House Homeland Security and counterterrorism official. The conversation delves into the tumultuous first hundred days of the Trump administration, exploring a spectrum of pressing national security issues, policy missteps, and the alarming shift towards authoritarianism.

Key Issues Discussed

1. Firing of National Security Advisor Mike Waltz and Laura Loomer's Influence

The episode opens with a critical examination of President Trump's recent dismissal of his National Security Advisor, Mike Waltz. Charlie Sykes highlights the unconventional and troubling manner of Waltz's removal, describing it as being "loomered" by Laura Loomer—a figure infamous for her extremist views.

Charlie Sykes (00:00): "Trump didn't just fire his national security advisor, Mike Waltz, he was loomered."

Olivia Troye (21:04): "She's leading the campaign to have Mike Waltz... She was leading the campaign to have Mike Waltz... She's playing a significant role in all of it."

Olivia Troye expresses deep concern over Loomer's involvement, emphasizing her extremist stance and the potential dangers of her influence on national security policies.

2. “War on Barbie” – Trump's Doll Rationing Proposal

A particularly bizarre policy proposal under scrutiny is Trump's "War on Barbie," where he suggests limiting the number of dolls allowed, a move Olivia Troy finds emblematic of Trump's disconnect from everyday American concerns.

Charlie Sykes (00:29): "...have you seen what he's done to the Oval Office?... No dolls for you, little girl. That we can only have..."

Olivia Troye (00:27): "It's just the disconnect by Donald Trump to the American people... he just has no awareness of what everyday American lives are like."

The hosts critique the absurdity of such proposals, drawing parallels to authoritarian regimes and questioning the rationale behind targeting trivial aspects of consumerism.

3. Authoritarian Tendencies and Institutional Erosion

Sykes and Troye delve into the broader implications of the administration's actions, highlighting efforts to undermine key institutions. They discuss the attempts to revoke Harvard's tax-exempt status and cut federal funding for NPR and PBS, viewing these moves as steps toward state-controlled media and authoritarian rule.

Charlie Sykes (07:05): "He's threatening to revoke Harvard's tax exempt status... cutting off all federal funding for NPR and PBS."

Olivia Troye (09:55): "Remember that is what happens in extreme countries and authoritarianism."

The conversation underscores the perilous trajectory towards authoritarianism, emphasizing the erosion of free press and academic independence.

4. Canadian Election and Trump’s Influence

The discussion shifts to the Canadian election, where Charlie Sykes examines President Trump's inadvertent impact on the political landscape across the border. Despite a strong Conservative presence, Trump's aggressive rhetoric on policies like tariffs surprisingly hindered the movement towards his preferred outcomes.

Charlie Sykes (23:07): "Donald Trump snatches defeat from the jaws of victory by his performative assholery on Canada."

Olivia Troye (25:13): "Canada was like, hey, we're not going to stand for this... we're not going to become like them."

The hosts analyze how Trump's interference exposed a desire among Canadians to distance themselves from Trumpian policies, reinforcing their commitment to addressing internal issues independently.

5. Immigration Policies: Office of Denaturalization and Deportation Errors

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the administration's controversial immigration policies, including the proposed Office of Denaturalization and the alarming incidents of wrongful deportations of U.S. citizens.

Charlie Sykes (27:08): "How many others are facing this right now?"

Olivia Troye (28:10): "They're moving towards doing this... these are U.S. Citizens, and we shouldn't be wavering on that."

The hosts express grave concerns over the lack of due process and the human cost of these policies, highlighting cases where innocent families were traumatized by ICE raids.

6. Concerns Over Stephen Miller’s Agenda

Stephen Miller, a prominent figure in shaping immigration policy, is scrutinized for his extremist views and aggressive agenda. Both Sykes and Troye condemn his methods and the significant influence he wields within the administration.

Charlie Sykes (37:40): "Stephen Miller is like one of the worst people that you ever knew."

Olivia Troye (38:08): "He is a horrible human being... he has gone all in, down the rabbit hole on extremism."

Their critique underscores the dangers of placing individuals with radical ideologies in positions of power, jeopardizing national security and democratic principles.

7. Humanizing Immigration Policies: Abrego Garcia Case

The Abrego Garcia case is highlighted as a pivotal moment where public opinion showed resistance to harsh immigration enforcement without due process. The wrongful seizure of a U.S. citizen family ignited backlash against the administration's policies.

Charlie Sykes (26:52): "There's public blowback against some of this... We are at the police state point."

Olivia Troye (32:21): "We need to let the Trump administration know that they just can't become this sort of lawless entity."

This case serves as a stark illustration of the tangible human suffering caused by flawed immigration policies and the urgent need for accountability.

8. The Potential for Authoritarianism and Institutional Damage

Both hosts express deep concerns about the long-term damage inflicted on U.S. institutions, including the judiciary, press, and governmental agencies. They warn that the rapid and unchecked dismantling of these pillars may lead to irreversible harm.

Charlie Sykes (45:47): "They're testing absolutely everything. It will be very difficult to fix the damage that they've done."

Olivia Troye (50:43): "We are losing... freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the rule of law."

The conversation paints a grim picture of an America on the brink of authoritarian rule, with entrenched power dynamics and institutional compromises facilitating this descent.

9. Reflection on Crisis: Generational vs Historic

In the concluding segments, Sykes and Troye reflect on whether the current challenges constitute a generational or historic crisis, ultimately agreeing that the situation embodies elements of both.

Charlie Sykes (51:24): "I think it's historic... we have had this complacency... all the guardrails may not actually save us."

Olivia Troye (51:21): "Can it be both? Yes."

They discuss the unprecedented nature of the crisis, emphasizing that the damage spans multiple generations and threatens the very fabric of American democracy.

Notable Quotes

• Charlie Sykes (00:29): "War on Barbie was not my thing. I did not. I did not see that coming."

• Olivia Troye (09:02): "It's all about control. Everything."

• Charlie Sykes (22:18): "Laura Loomer makes Tulsi Gabbard look normal."

• Olivia Troye (32:21): "We need to let the Trump administration know that they just can't become this sort of lawless entity."

• Charlie Sykes (50:43): "We are losing... freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the rule of law."

Conclusion

The episode of To The Contrary featuring Olivia Troye serves as a critical examination of the early actions of the Trump administration, highlighting alarming trends towards authoritarianism, institutional erosion, and extreme policy measures. Through insightful dialogue, Sykes and Troye underscore the urgent need for vigilance and resistance to preserve democratic values and the rule of law in the United States.

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Note: The timestamps provided in the quotes correspond to the moments in the transcript where the statements were made.

Transcript

[Olivia Troy]

Foreign.

[Charlie Sykes]

Sykes. Welcome back to a new episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm joined by my good friend Olivia Troy, who is a former White House Homeland Security and counterterrorism official and a lifelong national security official. So welcome back to the podcast, Olivia.

[Olivia Troy]

Thank you. Hi, Charlie. How you doing?

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, okay, so we got. Wait, okay, so we got through this week, the hundred days, the first hundred days of the Trump administration. We had the Canadian election on Friday. I tried to go on my newsletter, I tried to go through just some of the stuff that was happening in the last 48 hours now that Trump didn't just fire his national security advisor, Mike Waltz, he was loomered. And I really want to talk about that. Faced with an economic meltdown and this trade war that he's losing, the President of the United States, the billionaire President of the United States sitting in the gold gaudy Oval Office, by the way, have you seen what he's done to the Oval Office? I mean, the insidification is just like, well, it's Trumpified. Sits there and he lectures Americans, you know, no, no, you know, no dolls for you, little girl. That we can only have, too. So who. I don't know whether you had it on your bingo card, but War on Barbie was not my thing. I did not. I did not see that coming.

[Olivia Troy]

No, it's pathetic. I mean, it's also just, I think it's so emblematic of the disconnect by Donald Trump to the American people, or just the general public in general. Right. That he just has no awareness of what everyday American lives are like. Honestly.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, I was going to hold this for later, but, but, but also, I have to say that if a Democratic president or Democratic candidate had ever said, you know, you have too many dolls, nobody needs more than two dolls. Honestly. Right Wing Media would be on that 24, seven forever, right? Yes.

[Olivia Troy]

Oh, absolutely. They would be shredding it right now. It would be on every network, every podcast. I mean, it'd be headlines across the board.

[Charlie Sykes]

And kind of legitimately so in terms of that, that you don't want a politician, much less a billionaire politician, lecturing the American people. You have too much stuff. You don't need that stuff. And also, I mean, talk about a departure. I want to get to departure from any sort of conservatism here. But the departure from the cost of living is important. We are all going to be more prosperous. There's going to be so much winning. You will get sick of winning. And now it's basically, yeah, you're going to get Less stuff and you're going to pay more for it. And the kid doesn't get the doll. The kid doesn't get the doll. Look, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get too deep in the weeds on all of this, but this is the kind of thing that if Bernie Sanders said, you know, we, we have too many different brands of things, the conservative universe would lose its mind because. And also from Donald Trump's point of view. Well, forget Donald Trump's point of view. Five minutes ago, any conservative in America would have said, you know, the government should not be dictating how many dolls little girls get. Because if, you know, and I don't know what the right number. I mean, is there a right number that you have, Olivia? No. I see.

[Olivia Troy]

What is it also coming from the guy who has a lot of stuff. Right. That's why it's so.

[Charlie Sykes]

A lot of stuff.

[Olivia Troy]

If you want to call it that.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, okay, so maybe there are some people who have too many shoes. There are people who have too many dolls. But you know what? In market, guess who gets to decide that? That is decided by individuals. Oh, but see, this is, this is, this is so deeply ingrained in the free market mentality is that individuals, the market determines that. Parents determine how many dolls their kids get. This is exactly the kind of decision you do not want the federal government to make. And here is the leader of the ex conservative party telling us we have too many dolls. I mean, it really was kind of a Marie Antoinette moment. You know, let them eat cake. And Donald Trump says, hold my beer. Let them only have two dolls.

[Olivia Troy]

Also, just kind of like the fact that this is where we are as a country, that this is what the president of the United States is sitting there wanting to deliver. I mean, it's thinking about which with all the different things that Americans are faced with, what's happening in the world, this is where we are. Of his own making. Of his own making. A crisis of his own doing.

[Charlie Sykes]

See, this is how my brain works, though, because I'm ideologically bilingual. I mean, I understand how the other side. I am just trying to imagine if Barack Obama had said this, if Joe Biden had tottered out and he would have said, or Kamala Harris would have said, you know, Americans don't need that many eggs. You can do with just two eggs. You don't actually need. Honestly, this would have been the defining issue. Now, I've actually been traveling, so I haven't been following. But are like Democrats talking about this? Are they on this. Do they kind of understand the incredible gold plated gift that Donald Trump gave them with his war on Barbie?

[Olivia Troy]

Do they think they should be? I mean, you know, it actually reminded me, I was in a, at a talk with Larry Fink, the CEO of BlackRock, and he actually said it will actually start to permeate through society. And he's like, when people don't really understand, the bottom line is the cost of Barbie is going to go up, it's going to affect American toys, it's going to affect Americans at Christmas. Like he was really serious about it. Right. And so I think here we've gone full circle, fast forward weeks later and now I'm seeing Donald Trump and he's like, you don't need Barbies, you don't need this. And I'm like, this is the strangest dichotomy I've ever seen. Like it's especially coming from the Oval Office, but it's just sounds like, sounds.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like socialism to me, I gotta say. Okay, so other stories in terms. And again it's this balancing of the really important and dangerous with the absolutely absurd. Do you follow what they're doing in Oklahoma now? I mean, I understand that people have limited man with. In Oklahoma, the big lie about the 2020 election will now be taught as part of the official high school curriculum. Oh yes, it's not a parody. They've actually, they have this extreme MAGA superintendent and apparently the legislature had a chance to say no, that's too, that's, that's too batshit crazy. But they didn't. And so now high school students are good. And again, this is not part of a, a course in conspiracy theories. This is actually their, you know, their core curriculum. You know, look for discrepancies in the results of the 2020 election. I mean, you know, for fuck's sake. Meanwhile, we have a Trump appointed judge down in Texas ruling that Trump's use of the wartime act for deportations is illegal. It is interesting at first you had sort of old line Republican conservative judges ruling against the Trump administration. Now you're getting Trump's own judges, you know, good on them.

[Olivia Troy]

That was the deal, I thought. Yes, I think so. I think, you know, MAGA can sit there and say, oh, it's old conservatives, Republicans that aren't, that aren't real Republicans or Rhinos. You know what I mean? That's what they call us. And, but I thought that that was a significant moment and it'll be interesting to see how the administration navigates this. I think that I, quite frankly, I really, it hurts me to say this because I really, truly believe in the rule of law. And I'm watching these people, but I'm not sure that they care. I, I think they're dead set on continuing on, so we'll see.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, I think you, I think you're absolutely right. Yeah. And in the, in the annals of continuing lawlessness and retribution, Trump has renew, renewing his threats to revoke Harvard's tax exempt status, which, as David French points out, is blatantly illegal. But of course, this is red meat for maga. But you know, again, this is one of those moments where you wonder whether Republicans and conservatives are careful what they wish for. Do they really want the president to revoke the tax exempt status of any private organization, foundation, think tank, church they disagree with just by executive edict? I don't think so. He's also issued an executive order cutting off all federal funding for NPR and pbs. I don't know, Olivia, what was your best memory of a Congress that actually was part of all of this? I mean, they, does Congress do anything anymore?

[Olivia Troy]

I'm just wondering what's going on here. And also, I mean, it just, to me, all of it is just about control. If you look at all this. Right. That's what he's doing. It's about controlling everything. Everything. And I, I'm sitting here watching, especially Republicans in Congress who are just rolling over and they're part of the agenda and their self preservation is kicking in and they're not doing anything to preserve our country, which is what is really worrisome right now in this moment.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, I'm no longer actually, believe it or not, I've kind of moved past invertebrate Republicans. Like we've done that, I think, I mean, I mean we kind of do know that never count on them. But of course, they don't actually do anything. But what continues to be stunning is watching other organizations and institutions cave in. I mean, yeah, the spineless Republicans, I think it's a huge scandal. But what's about to happen with cbs, you know, Paramount caving in, Sherry Redstone deciding she's going to cut a deal with Donald Trump to pay, to pay money, you know, the Dane gel the tribute, whatever. But the humiliation of 60 Minutes which has already resulted in the resignation of the executive producer of 60. I mean, this is, I think if you, we're going to look back on this period and they're going to, there will be some inflection points and that's going to be one of the Darkest of all.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I agree. And I think for every network that does this to me, I'm just like, okay, just remember that you are part of enabling a state controlled media, because that's essentially what this is pointing to. Right? I mean, that is really the bottom line. That's what happens in extreme countries and authoritarianism. And they know this. And the more they do it, the more emboldened the Trump team gets, because they're going to continue to push boundaries. You and I talk about this, and they're just testing the waters. And I just don't understand. I mean, why not stand your ground? Why not band together?

[Charlie Sykes]

Because it's hard, it's convenient, you know, it's inconvenient. It's like Sherry Redstone, you know, it might cost her some money, you know, but. So it's funny, you talk about the press.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

You talk about the authoritarian model. And I sat through a lot of seminars, read lots of articles you did as well, talking about, you know, what happened in other countries like Hungary. How did Viktor Orban destroy civil society? What did he do to the media? What did he do to universities? Remember thinking, very, very interesting. You know, fortunately, we're not hungry. We have different institutions. And, and yet, as I think it was Anne Applebaum pointed out, it took Viktor Orban more than a decade to accomplish his goal. Trump is doing it in, like three months with the very active cooperation of the institutions that we sort of assumed would be guardrails. And they're. And they're not. Right.

[Olivia Troy]

Yes. And I would say, to add to that, that he is doing the actual dismantling right now in the past 100 days that he's been back in the office. But he has been laying the groundwork, the messaging, the disinformation, misinformation, the propaganda campaign, for years now. Right. That's what he has to learn from. He has been building that momentum for years.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. No, there's no question about it. The ground has been softened up on this for a very long time. Hey, but the good news, Olivia. Okay, because this has been kind of, this has been kind of a downer. Congratulations, America. We're getting a parade. We're getting this gigantic parade, this big army parade on Trump's birthday. 6,600 soldiers. I mean, this is going to be, you know, he's going to be up there and, you know, he's had that parade envy, having seen what the Russians and the French do. We're going to get our own big military parade for Donald Trump's birthday.

[Olivia Troy]

He's been wanting this for so long, so now he's just gonna make it happen. Yeah. How very dictator like is what I would say, because those are the people that kind of hold parades for themselves like that. It's just kind of odd, really. Really. So what a misuse of military versus too, by the way, let's think about that. In an age of Doge where efficiency and all this stuff, we. We seem to cherry pick where we're going to use that efficiency or not, it seems when it comes to the Trump admin.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes. We have to cut money. Right. I mean, the whole Doge thing is that, you know, government is too expensive, we have to cut back. But let's have a $100 million parade for Donald Trump and let's spend $100 million on his security at golf courses or whatever. All right, so this, this, I think is. Is a story that I'm tempted to think of as funny, but it's not. Okay, so I'm going to go. I usually opt for the, you know, look, they're moving the clowns around in the clown car. Okay. The Mike Walls. Walls, Right. Okay. But I think it's actually worse than that. Now, the fact that he's fired his national security advisor is not shocking. He's gone through how many, what, six of them or so, Right? Yeah. National security. He changes national security advisors more often than some people change their socks. And let's be honest about it. And so the Mike. I mean, Mike Walls pissed a lot of people off, apparently didn't get along with Susie Wiles, was dead man walking after signal gate. And by the way, I mean, how stupid do you have to be after signal gate? Apparently somebody took a picture of him at the Cabinet meeting this week. Still looking on signal. It's right there.

[Olivia Troy]

I'm kind of like, are you not as smart as I once thought you were? Because, like, that's ridiculous. Plus, I love all the names on that D.C. it was like Tulsi Gabbard's name, J.D. vance, scheduling. I mean, and that's what I already said from the beginning, remember? I think you and I talked about this. I was like, how many other signal chats are there? Well, it turns out a lot, according to his phone.

[Charlie Sykes]

So, yeah. So, I mean, obviously he was an embarrassment. And in a rational universe, Pete Hegseth would have been fired. But in a rational universe, Pete Hegseth would never have been near the Pentagon in the first place. But. So at the end of the day, though, he. He lands as the. He lands at the United Nations. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. So I don't know, you. You tell me. Is that a promotion? Demotion? Lateral move, goes from national security advisor to gets a pretty sweet deal because that's the one that Elise Stefanik thought was hers, you know, pushing out for a lease. She must be so mad, bouncing off the wall. Oh, yeah, she has to go back to being a congresswoman.

[Olivia Troy]

She must be livid. Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about Mike Waltz, and I'm like, was it worth it? I've known Mike Waltz and his wife a long time, and I was thinking to myself, was it worth it? Was it worth it? You gave up your congressional slot. You went all in on this whole mega train, fully knowing that he actually had my role in Cheney's office. I don't know if you know that he was Cheney's. Cheney's national security team. And so I had a conversation with Mike Waltz when I was in my role, and he was like, oh, thank goodness. I'm so glad that you're on the Pence team and that Pence is there, like, at controlling the crazy. Those were his words. And so then I watch him flip and go all in, and I'm like, so how'd that work out for you? I mean, really, like, what is. What. What happened here? Gave up your congressional slot. You went all in with the team. And I saw the reporting where, you know, he's too much of a traditional defense hawk. He wasn't quite fitting in with, you know, the Russian Putin sympathizers. I mean, so at least there's that. So I guess there's a negative to him getting pushed out, even though he can't seem to actually understand how to control national security, war plans and things like that. But I don't know. I mean, I was thinking about. I'm like, I guess he gets the title of ambassador and he's been moved out of the way and, yeah, I guess in some ways it's landing. Yeah, soft landing. Not bad. Pisses off Elisephonic, like we said. But then also, I was thinking, like, when I think about the fact that, like, he's been pushed out, I just think, like, Trump wants control. He's not going to let anyone else control foreign policy anyways. We've seen that. Right? That's why it goes through all the national security advisors and gets him fired. Like, so I think, once again, like, he's just another pawn that was used. But what's gonna happen in the confirmation hearing for Mike Walt? I'm super interested to see that, Oh.

[Charlie Sykes]

I think there'll be a lot of interesting questions about Signal Gate, don't you think? Yes, likely because he didn't have to go through confirmation. No, I mean, there was some commentary that, okay, as idiotic as he was on Signal Gate, that he was a more traditional foreign policy voice than others. And of course, with Trump, you always ask, well, who's next? And the fact that there was speculation that it was this guy Witkoff, who is a complete moron, you know, old buddy, the guy who's been sucking up to Vladimir Putin, sitting in meetings with Vladimir Putin, relying on the Kremlin's own translators. I mean, this guy's just really bad. So part of the concern is that whatever you think about Mike Waltz, his successor could be exponentially worse. Now, temporarily, it's. It's Marco Rubio, who is, what, He's Secretary of State, he's head of usaid. He's now the National Security Advisor, bottle washer, White House gardener. I mean, what. I just sort of everything. So.

[Olivia Troy]

Which I guess. But I think that speaks to the fact that they don't really take these roles seriously, the Trump team, inside the White House. Don't you? I mean, I think, like, the fact that this guy's wearing, like, seven, ten different hats, like, probably not doing any role. Well, if you're juggling that many responsibility positions, but I don't think they care. Like, that's the point.

[Charlie Sykes]

I don't think they care about, like, you know, competence and expertise do not seem to be priorities. Okay, but. But the part about this that is unfunny, that is really disturbing, and I'm sorry, because I, as I said, instinctually, I want to stick with the clown car aspect of this, but the fact that Mike Walls was loomered. Okay, so for people who watch this, I hope you have some idea who Laura Loomer is. Whatever you think you know about Laura Loomer, just trust me. It is exponentially worse to say that she is a batshit crazy conspiracy theorist, only touches on it. To say that she is a toxic bigot, only begins to touch on. In fact, it was shocking, even to MAGA folks, some MAGA folks, that she was hanging out with Donald Trump during the campaign, that they were the BFFs. People wondering, what are you. Why are you handing out, hanging out with. With one of the most deplorable of the deplorables. And now what we're finding out is that she was leading the campaign to have Mike Waltz, one of his deputies, fired. She met with the president, she showed him videos. She gave him some, you know, was whispering in his ear that, you know, these guys are not lo. And apparently has enough influence to have already had a number of national security officials fired. And now the national security advisor and his top deputy. So the fact that Laura Loomer is playing a significant role in all of it, I mean, to say, how bad is Laura Loomer? Laura Loomer makes Tulsi Gabbard look normal. Okay, I don't. I didn't actually mean that, but, I mean, you know, if. If here's the normal, okay, for people who are watching on YouTube, this is the normal, right? Left, you have people like Tulsi Gabbard who are way over here, right? And Loomer is, like, off on Neptune in terms of crazy. And yet the President, United States is listening to her and making decisions on foreign policy and national security based on stuff he's getting from Laura Loomer. Olivia, talk me through this. Talk me down on this one.

[Olivia Troy]

No, I mean, it's sick. It's sickening. It's frightening to think that. I mean, she's a 911 denier. First of all, remember, I mean, I was such an insult when he showed up. Remember when he showed up at the 911 memorial with her? I mean, I like that, to me, made me sick to my stomach seeing that, because she is an atrocious human being. But good to know that, ladies and gentlemen, our national security is now being dictated by Loomer, who's calling the shots on personnel.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, I mean, when I say that she's, like, out there, I mean.

[Olivia Troy]

No, it's bad.

[Charlie Sykes]

Do you know who thinks that she's an extremist bigot? Who, like, too loony. Marjorie Taylor Greene. She is too crazy for Marjorie Taylor Green. This is something that we all ought to, like, go into a darkened room and meditate on, okay? That Marjorie Taylor Greene looks at Laura Loomer and goes, girl, you're nuts. You are just. What are you doing in the room? Why would anyone associate with you Marjorie Taylor Greene? And yet there she is in the Oval Office, and she told Tara Palmeria, you know, all the stuff that she showed Donald Trump and really signaled the fact that she was targeting Mike Waltz and that he was dead man walking. And. And here we are. The National Security advisor has been loomered and she's still thirsting for blood. She has a list and Lumer enemy list, which God knows what the hell that could be. And so more heads could fall. Nothing to do with expertise, Nothing to do with competence, just whether or not you have fallen afoul of a 911 conspiracist? Just toxic, bigoted bullshit. Barbie. I mean, what else can I say?

[Olivia Troy]

That's a great name for her, actually. Yeah. Her and Caroline love it.

[Charlie Sykes]

So. So, speaking of national security and I. I suppose the good news is this guy Witkoff, do you know him at all? I mean, he's. He's like, he has no experience in anything. He's just a buddy, and he's been meeting with Vladimir Putin. So where do you have a sense of where we're at on Ukraine and Russia? Vladimir Putin continues to humiliate Donald Trump. He continues to launch attacks. He did cut a deal. Okay, so the fact that we actually cut the deal for the rare earth minerals, is that an indication of any sort of a shift? So what do you. What are you seeing here?

[Olivia Troy]

You know, I think that. I think Donald Trump is trying to message that things are, you know, somewhat making progress by doing that deal.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Olivia Troy]

But the truth is, like, Putin's not going to budge. We know that. I mean, he controls this whole situation. Yeah, no, he's got. What incentive does he have? He has everyone in his back pocket. And so I think we're going to continue to watch this game of chess that Trump thinks he's playing, but he's not really. And I'm not sure that Trump's not chess.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's not chess at all.

[Olivia Troy]

So I think the reality is that we're at the sake of Putin right now, and that's what's happening. And we have a White House full of people who are enabling this whole scenario by being his allies, and that's how they behave. And it's really disturbing to watch. And so what's next? I mean, are we gonna have Laura Loomer going and negotiating? Is that what's next? Think about that.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, you know, that might not be far off. Well, it might not be far off. So, speaking of foreign policy, we had the Canadian election here. We had the Canadian election. I know that people know that it was a big upset, that it was Donald Trump. I'm not sure that most Americans understand how really shocking that result was. It wasn't just that the conservatives were 26 points ahead in the polls before Trump began his 51st state tariff rants. It's that the Liberals had a lot of problems. You can't build houses in Canada. The health care system is, shall we say, suboptimal. There are a lot of legitimate grievances, obviously, some illegitimate grievances but after a decade of Liberal Party rule, I think the Canadian people were really desperate for change, basically anybody. So they were going to go with a populist Conservative Party 26 points in Canada. And what does Donald Trump do? He snatches defeat from the jaws of victory by his performance. Performative assholery on Canada. So your thoughts about the Canadian election? Liberals win slightly short of a majority, but in a pretty strong position.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I think, look, congratulations to Donald Trump for unifying Canada. I mean, that's really, that's really what he did. And you know, I just, I also think it's just ridiculous the way he talks about Canada. On the day of the election. He was still taunting the 51st state. I mean, he was saying that. And I think it completely was a slap in the face to, to Donald Trump because Canada was like, hey, no, we're not going to stand for this. And anything that resembles Trumpism or the right wing of what MAGA is and has become, and if they parallel that, they're like, we don't want that. We're watching what's happening in the United States, Hell no, we're running away, away from that. We'll figure out our problems here, we'll figure out how we navigate this, but we're not going to become like them, I think, and you know, good for them, Good for them.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, but also I'm interested to hear what the Trump defenders think about this strategy because we're constantly being told, you need to trust. He's got a plan. He's playing, you know, four dimensional chess. And Charles Cook from National Review was asking the question, you know, could you explain what do you get out of this? You've tanked the Conservatives. How did this help the United States? How did it help your Conservative allies? What did you actually accomplish other than, well, you own the libs, you trolled them. Okay, to what end? Because it's not clear that the grand strategy worked in any way for Donald Trump. I mean, it just seems, and I'm sorry to say this about our esteemed president, it just seemed, you know, like he just rat fucked the whole thing, you know, I mean, it was stupid.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I don't, I don't see the strategy either. And, you know, I think it'll be interesting, hopefully, perhaps we can do this, we can do what Canada did in future elections and start to push this movement back. So we'll, we'll see, we'll see how that translates here.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, so you used to work, you were, you worked with the Department of Homeland Security. Very closely. You. You wrote a really disturbing piece on your substack that. About the trend lines with deportation that, you know, first they came for the immigrants. The migrants, illegal or not, we don't know, because many of them haven't had due process. But one of the more. And we ought to be shocked about this, the speed with which MAGA has moved to saying yes, and we might like to deport US Citizens as well. Seriously, literally, seriously, how should we take this? Olivia?

[Olivia Troy]

You know, I have always been very blunt about this, and I know that people at times have been like, oh, she's being hyperbolic, or she's being an alarmist. I've always believed Stephen Miller's intentions were actually true when he said that there would be the Office of Denaturalization. I think he views that as a way for forward. A path forward, I think, and I think.

[Charlie Sykes]

An Office of Denaturalization, what is that?

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I think that they are looking. I think that's why you're seeing what's happening when they are taking these people and they're doing it without due process is that I think that there is a school of thought here that wants to walk back. Legal, resident status, looking at citizens, and that's why they're so focused on that birthright. Birthright citizenship.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Olivia Troy]

We're going to see that in May when the court, you know, hears the arguments on it. That is going to be a defining moment. And like, I know that I hit a nerve because, oh, Charlie, you should see the messages I got from the piece I wrote. And it was. MAGA was pissed. Good to know that I have a good mega following. That's reading. Reading my stuff.

[Charlie Sykes]

Congratulations for that.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, thanks. I don't know how I accomplished that, but, yes, they. They let me know and.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, wait, wait, wait. What were they objecting to? Because, I mean, Stephen Miller has made it clear that he would like to strip legal status. He would like to denaturalize people. Donald Trump was in the Oval Office joking around with the president of El Salvador that maybe we're gonna send homegrown criminals down to El Salvador. And everybody was yucking it up. So they've actually raised this question, right, of American citizens.

[Olivia Troy]

There are things that we can actually point to. And in my article, you know, I even link to it, and I'm talking about these. I've talked about the children that are US Citizens, Right? Especially I was disgusted about the fact that we've got this child who has cancer that is, you know, now was sent off with his mom. She wasn't giving due process. There's no process here for, like, the medications. Like, it was all incredibly disturbing. But to me, it's just another check on their list of how they move towards actually doing this in terms of, you know, these are US Citizens, and we shouldn't be wavering on that. And so, you know, some of the letters, some of the notes I got were like, no, they're not. They're kids that have been trafficked, by the way. This is. This is the logic behind this. They're kids that have been trafficked by illegals into our country.

[Charlie Sykes]

Like their mothers and their fathers.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah. Really?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Olivia Troy]

Really? Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay. So I thought one of the more positive.

[Olivia Troy]

We should take it serious.

[Charlie Sykes]

One of the positive developments, and I have to admit I'm a little bit, you know, pleasantly surprised by. Were the polls showing that the Trump administration is deeply underwater in its handling of the case of Abrego Garcia? Because I think there was a. There was conventional wisdom among the smart kids, including some leading Democrats, that this was a loser for. For critics, because immigration was Donald Trump's sweet spot. Right. I mean, he and Stephen Miller were sitting around the Oval Office saying, you know what? The public not only likes the deportations, the more brutal they are, the better.

[Olivia Troy]

Yes.

[Charlie Sykes]

And frankly, I was kind of wondering whether or not if he succeeded in framing this as, do you want to stand up and defend violent gang members who rape and murder, or do you want to clean the country out, that he might actually have some wind at his back. It turns out that there's a residual respect for things like due process. And even if it turns out that Abrego Garcia is not a great guy. And again, this is not the point that he's a model citizen. The point is that he should have gotten due process. And apparently, a lot of Americans seem to understand this, although, you know, Trump is continuing to. By the way, did you like that how Trump was actually believing that the photoshopped pictures of his hands were real in his interview with Terry Moran on abc? It's like, Terry Moran. He would know it was photoshopped. Mr. President. No. Why are you defending this guy? But anyway, so I guess I'm pleasantly surprised that, in fact, that there is public blowback against some of this. And I think part of it is, as you point out, we're now seeing the stories, the human suffering and faces. Faces are being put on the policy in the abstract. Yeah. You know, bad guys, get rid of them here. It's like, really, this guy this way?

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah. And I think Look, I think that is really critical at this time is for Americans to really take a stand and say the rule of law matters in our country. We are a nation of due process. And, you know, we, every person that this is happening to deserves due process. And I think that's critical. And I think the more that we can build that momentum, the better, because I think we need to let the Trump administration know that they just can't become this sort of lawless entity that they're clearly heading towards and pushing the boundaries on and trying to become. And I think the thing is right now, it's that individual. But how many others, how many others are facing this right now? Right? I mean, we have students disappearing off campuses, getting picked up. We've got these children and their moms. I mean, where does it end? And that is my concern, right? Where does the line draw in all of these situations?

[Charlie Sykes]

And will the courts draw a line? And I think that there's good people, there's reason for not optimism, but hope on all this. So the story out of Oklahoma City I wanted to ask you about because I know you're familiar with the way these things go. So here's the latest story. The U.S. department of Homeland Security has finally admitted that a family who says they were traumatized when ICE rage, when ICE agents raided their Oklahoma City home, were not the suspects that ICE was looking for. And here's the statement. ICE was carrying out a court authorized search warrant for a large scale human smuggling investigation. The search warrants included the location of an address where US Citizens recently moved. The previous residents were the intended targets. So we fucked up. We basically took them out. So here's the story. The admission comes after agents raided this family's home last Thursday. The mother, who's only identified as Marissa, revealed that she and her daughters were startled awake early that morning when around 20 agents with guns raided the house and seized their phones, laptops and their life savings in cash as evidence. The agents also ordered Marissa and her daughters outside into the rain before they could even put on their clothes. So how does, what happened here, do you think, Olivia? I mean, it's just. But I mean, the overwhelming force, the kind of, the brutality of it, and then it's like, oh, oops, sorry, wrong people. And they're saying, we're US Citizens, we're US Citizens. Didn't make any difference. For days, Kristi Noem and Homeland Security said we did nothing wrong. And now they're finally admitting, yeah, we screwed up.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I was horrified when I saw that it still Actually makes my stomach turn when I see the clip of that mother and how the trauma, how horrific it was, how traumatizing it must have been for all of them to have that happen. And especially when she says, like they thought they were being robbed when they broke the glass and broke in her house. And you can see the glass shattered at their front door. Like, I don't know how you ever sleep at night again, remembering that every single night, wondering what the hell happened. And so I think, you know, I am disgusted at the level of incompetence by ICE and these groups because, come on, guys, do your job, do your job better. If you're gonna do raids like this, like actually do the work to confirm that you have the right household. Right. I mean, there's a disconnect here of the lack of information and the links. And I mean, Kristi Noem should publicly apologize to that family. And honestly, Charlie, that family should sue. They should see the government.

[Charlie Sykes]

Absolutely. So let me, I mean, you say that you were, you know, I mean, you still think about it. I mean, I, I think about it as well, not because I'm worried that ICE is going to take me away. I'm actually worried if they're this. If, yes, I know if they are this reckless and this incapable of being this, this brutal. If they came to my house, I'm afraid that they would shoot my dogs. I guess my dogs wouldn't understand it. Right. I mean, I, you know, it's, it's not like little girls. So these are, we're living in difficult. And by the way, I just, in terms of, and I'm sorry to put that. I really, I apologize in advance for putting in the terms of public relations because it's much more fundamental now. This is not the narrative that Trump wants or even Stephen Miller wants, that people are focusing on this. Because I do think that there's going to be some strong pushback of the American people. I mean, even people who would be inclined to support tough immigration policies are gonna go, yeah, guys, we're not up for a full on police state yet. And I think that's really where we're at here.

[Olivia Troy]

No, I think so too. I mean, it's not a good look. And you know what I wonder, Charlie, is how many other incidents are there like this that are taking place across our country that we just don't know about? That we just don't know.

[Charlie Sykes]

That's a great question. Okay, so this leads me to ask a question and I feel you and I have talked about this before. But I want to ask you again. You know Stephen Miller, I do work with him, right?

[Olivia Troy]

I did.

[Charlie Sykes]

What is with this guy? Because I look at him and I go, this is one of the strangest characters in American politics and government, like ever. This weird humunculate. Okay, so just give me some sense. Because is there like a real human being under there? I mean, if, if you pulled off his face, would you get a lizard or would there be like a, a little boy who didn't get a pony when he was a kid? What, I mean, who is he?

[Olivia Troy]

I think what you see is what you get with him. He is a horrible human being. And this is someone who has kids, by the way. He and Katie Miller have kids now. And I cannot believe that they behave this way. Think about that, think about the lack of compassion or humanity. But I think he is someone who has gone all in, down the rabbit hole on very much extremism. And I think in his like mind, there would be no migrants, immigrants or any mixed race in our country. And I think that he has been pushing this agenda for a long time. I've heard them, I've heard him pontificate. He does it in a very bullying type of way. I've never seen anyone behave towards cabinet people like that. And I've been in a lot of very senior cabinet level making meetings throughout multiple administrations, both Democrat and Republican. And I never saw at the time, by the way, he was still a staffer, right? He was not the deputy chief of staff even. I've never seen anyone talk down to people in that manner and lecture them. And we're talking about things like, you know, when he would say, do you want a bunch of Iraqi communities around this country? Do you want that? He was very specific in his language about it. And so when I see him now, I mean, he is double down, emboldened. I mean, he is now, you know, he believes that he's got all of the power. He's Trump's right hand person. And I don't think, you know, when it comes to that. I mean, we know that he is all about using lawfare for whatever purpose. And he's got his minions around the U.S. government. I mean, you know, Chad Meisel was one of his right hand people during the first Trump administration. He was a dhs, like legal general counsel. That's who was there. And he was in these meetings where they were doing a lot of the very extreme measures back then. That guy is now the chief of staff at the Department of Justice. He works with Pam Bondi now. So this is one connected network.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, and you have guys who are like, you know who I'm thinking of? Darren Beatty over at the State Department, who was actually fired by the first Trump White House because he was hanging out with white supremacists. I mean, these are people that you would not normally have within 10 miles of any position of responsibility. But I was thinking about Stephen Miller the other day because he came out to the briefing room and he was giving some ranty speech where everything he's saying is sort of like barking or translated from a foreign language. And I'm thinking somebody at the White House must know that having him as the face of these policies is terrible. I mean, he is just awful. And yet he's so powerful and so arrogant right now that no one can tell him no. So what you have here is based on what I've read about him, what you're describing is like one of the worst people that you ever knew. Somebody who was a total cretin when he was in college and now suddenly he has become incredibly emboldened, incredibly empowered, and all of the power takes all of the worst elements of his personality and has now amplified them. Because I'm looking at him and going, you know, for people who think that, you know, there are not some people on MAGA who've gone like full raw, authoritarian, fascist. It's like, ladies and gentlemen, let me introduce you, Stephen Miller. And I mean, honestly, even just the way he talks, that kind of that arrogant small man barking, you know, it. Does it sound better in the original German kind of shit that he puts out.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, and that's, that's him, by the way. That is him in everyday conversation. Any conversation I had in the hallways in the White House. I remember he called me one night and had a long. I mean, I was on the phone with him for about an hour where he basically gave an hour lecture on. Yeah. On immigration and cartels and went on about transnational organizations. And I, I just remember thinking, you know, when, when Stephen Miller is calling you after hours at your house, I remember thinking, oh, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

So there's not a Stephen Miller that, hey, everybody gets around, they have a beer and you know, some Chex Mix and, and he kind of lets his non existent hair down. And no, it's not like. No, there's nothing that, no, not that I ever softer. There's no softer, gentler guy. Have any sense of humor whatsoever? Any personality? I mean, no.

[Olivia Troy]

You know, I had to work very closely with his wife. She was our comms person for a long time in Pence's office, and I would say not much better. Yeah, it's interesting that he found his match.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's. That's, you know, achieve achievement unlocked. Okay, so, first hundred days, what was the thing that surprised you most about the first hundred days?

[Olivia Troy]

Man, that's tough, because I really. I expected it to be bad. And it has been, I think, pushing the courts the way they have, I think came earlier than I thought it would. I knew the day would come, I guess. But I. I think that. That, I think was a. Was like, okay, wow, they're really going to do this early on, and this is going to set the tone for what's to come throughout the next couple of years in this administration. And I'm actually watching what's happening. I really. I am actually more worried about the next hundred days because that's when. Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, no, I think you're absolutely right. I mean, they've. They set everything in place and it made it very clear. So, yeah, the next hundred days is potentially even more dangerous. So I, you know, I look back and I've said this before. What surprised me the most was not their initiatives, because they said they were going to do this. Now, again, I gotta confess, I didn't expect that it would be everything all at once, you know, at that. Necessarily that speed. But what most shocked me was the lack of resistance. The caving in of the news media, of the universities, of the law firms, the willingness of the billionaires to bend the knee. That was shocking. I don't know how long that continues. And I know that there's a school of thought that, okay, you know, this was kind of impressive that he did all of this stuff so fast. He clearly had a blueprint. You know, we've been talking about the clowns who are grotesquely incompetent. Russ Vogt is an extremist, but he's competent. He knows what he's doing. So you have that juxtaposition of very focused competence and agenda against the fact that you have these insane clown cars, you know, in the actual cabinet, which may be a saving grace at some point, but also the law of physics is the harder you push at something, the more resistance you get. And I wonder whether, as you point out, they picked all the fights at the same time, that maybe they shouldn't have done everything. The push of the courts was shocking, but what I'm seeing now is that even the conservative jurists are going, no, we're drawing the line. In fact, some of the most important decisions have been rendered by conservative Reagan appointees, Bush appointees, and now even Trump appointees who are saying, look, we can't go along with all of this. And he's insulted and threatened and tried to bully the courts. I think it's backfiring. What do you think?

[Olivia Troy]

I think it is. I think at what point? I mean, it was when we had that moment where I was Caroline Lovett, who didn't rule out arresting Supreme Court justices. Wow. I mean, that. I hope they're listening. Are they paying attention to that? Because if I were them, I'd be like talking to your buddies and friends and saying, okay, we really need to hold the line for the sake of our country. And so I think they have overstepped in some ways the way they've gone about it. And I think they're seeing sort of the backlash of it. The question is, when it comes to some of the more critical rulings, what is going to happen then? And does it create a chilling effect depending on the way they rule? Right.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, that was the fear. I mean, that was the fear that would be such a chilling effect that essentially they were saying early on to the chief justice, hey, nice court you have there. Would be a shame if anything happened to it. What happens if we defy your rulings and people discover that you actually have no power whatsoever? And there was an attempt, I think, to chill the courts. But I also think that there's a real downside to doing what they're doing now, which is to completely flout the courts. To ignore a 90 opinion of the court when you have a 72 ruling against the administration, that's sending a real message. And the fact that Abrego Garcia is still not back, look, this is a binary thing. He's either gonna be returned or he's not going to be returned. And right now, despite the clear decision by the Supreme Court, it could have been stronger, but still clear decision. He's not back. And you have this sort of juvenile na, na, na from the Trump administration to the justices of the Supreme Court, which I'm not sure is the four dimensional chess they think it is.

[Olivia Troy]

Yeah, I think, I think this is going to be a telling moment. And I just, you know, I'm torn on it, Charlie. I'm torn. I think, Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen. I have to be honest, having seen these people operate firsthand, and the dynamics here, I mean, like you said, there is there, there is a clown car and the clown show happening around. But there is also a group of people that are very calculated. They know what they're doing. They have studied this. They know the levers that they can pull. They have the full policy control of the U.S. government. And so I think that those are the calculated people that worry me the most. And so I'm not convinced that that man is ever coming back. That is, actually.

[Charlie Sykes]

I'm not either. And, you know, this was something that, you know, we anticipated somewhat. I think it was David Frum who said the difference between 2.0 and 1.0, Trump 2.0 and Trump 1.0 was that the Velociraptors have now figured out how to open the doors. The first time around, they didn't. They didn't really know what to do. Now they've figured out how to open the doors. And what you're seeing now is slightly mixing my metaphor. It's like watching a burglar go down a hallway, you know, at a hotel room, just trying each door. They're testing everything. They're not going to get into every single room. They're not going to win everything. But that's not the point. It's the testing. And they keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And so at some point, it's like, well, why not try it? We may lose in court, but let's strip this agency of its independence. Let's strip all the norms from the Department of Justice. Maybe we'll go after the Federal Reserve at some point. Now, the markets, I think, provided a pushback against that, but you can see that they're testing everything. What if the President orders the IRS to cut Harvard's tax exempt strategy? What will happen then? Well, we're going to find out. And because they are, again, testing absolutely everything. And they're going to have some. They're gonna have some defeats, but they're gonna have some wins. And it will be very difficult to fix the damage that they've done. And that's what I really worry about. You know, I was at a seminar yesterday, and somebody was saying, well, in American politics, everything's a pendulum, right? It swings one way and then it swings back. And I said, I used to think that, but now I think it's a ratchet effect. But sometimes when you lose something, you don't get it back. And I kind of wonder whether we're in that period right now.

[Olivia Troy]

I agree with you in that, that I am very concerned about the damage that has already been done to the federal government. Just with Doge and everything that's happened here. And I think we're seeing it across the board on the various pillars, right? Whether you're looking at freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the rule of law, I mean, and even government personnel being purged, there's great expertise that we are losing. We don't even. We're not even going to begin to understand the damage of what happened here. It's going to take a while. And I think, how do you rebuild that? How do you come back from that?

[Charlie Sykes]

I think that's. I think that's a. That's the work of generations. This is not just, you know, there's a school of thought out there. It's like, well, okay, we just need to get to the midterms. I think that people are over. Look, the midterm, even a victory by the Democrats in the midterms does not reverse this, does not change the dynamic. And I think that we're going to be living with the fallout and the hangover of this for decades. Okay, I have a question to ask you. It was also in the seminar I was asked yesterday. So are we faced with a generational crisis or an historic crisis?

[Olivia Troy]

Can it be both?

[Charlie Sykes]

It can be both. I'll tell you what I said. I said, I think it's historic. I think this is one of those moments where we test whether the whole American experiment survives, you know, that we have had this complacency, that America was immune to history, that it couldn't happen here. And now we're finding out that all of the guardrails that we thought, all the checks and balances may not actually save us here. So generational is, you know, you go through the things that happened in the 1960s, but historic feels more like this fundamental 1850s, like, test that we're having now. But nobody knows.

[Olivia Troy]

Nobody knows. But I do think that we are going to be a very different America after presidency. I don't know where we come back from that or if it remains that way. And we are just a completely different version of ourselves. And it pains me to say that as someone who has spent my career watching democracies around the world fight for freedom and fail some of them. It's really hard to see just so many of the patterns being sort of repeated and shown here. It's just very hard to accept that.

[Charlie Sykes]

But the good news is we have a parade to look forward to. So, yes. Elbows up.

[Olivia Troy]

Or is that how I get arrested? I don't know.

[Charlie Sykes]

Olivia Troy, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I always enjoy it. Thank you very much for coming.

[Olivia Troy]

Thanks, Charlie.

[Charlie Sykes]

And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. You know why we do this and why we're going to keep doing this? Because more than ever, we need to remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thanks.