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- [00:00]
Charlie Sykes
Foreign. Welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. You know, maybe like, two or three days ago, when we were much more innocent than we are now, we didn't necessarily think that we were gonna have a constitutional crisis this week. We didn't think that the rule of law would collapse, I don't know. In the. In week four of the Trump administration. So it is Thursday, and I just want to remind you of what happened on Monday. Okay. In case you're getting. Wanting to get a sense of the trajectory of things, the president signed a new executive order halting enforcement of the 1977 Foreign corrupt practices act, which says you can't actually bribe people.
- [00:52]
Olivia Troy
And.
- [00:52]
Charlie Sykes
And Donald Trump says, hey, you know, well, you know, what's wrong with little corruption? We'll get lots of deals out of that. This was the same day that he pardoned the corrupt mayor of New York who had been indicted on bribery charges. And DOJ gave a directive to the U.S. attorney in Manhattan, basically saying, yeah, drop it. And of course, you know, Mayor Adams is saying, okay, yeah, you know, gathered together as entire cabinet, says we can't criticize Donald Trump. We're going to go along with everything they're doing with ice. Garrett Graff, who actually wrote a book on Watergate, said this might be the most nakedly corrupt document I've seen on DOJ letterhead. And I wrote the history of Watergate. I mean, this is the letter. You are directed to dismiss the pending charges. Okay. And same day, Donald Trump pardoned the corrupt former governor of Illinois, Rod Blagojevich. And when you say the corrupt former governor of Illinois, you know, you really have to in Illinois to be one of the most corrupt figures. That's. That's actually saying a lot, and there's a lot more. Same day, Trump dismissed the head of the Office of Government Ethics, because, of course, who needs the Office of Government Ethics? He fired more watchdogs. And, you know, we haven't even had, you know, all of the people, the personnel in place. Pam Bondi is clearly planning to weaponize the Department of Justice, and Kash Patel is headed toward the FBI. And I want to talk about Kash Patel with today's guest, Olivia Troy. First of all, welcome to the podcast, Olivia.
- [02:33]
Olivia Troy
Thanks, Charlie. Good to see you.
- [02:35]
Charlie Sykes
I want to introduce Olivia as one of the bravest women of our time, a former counterterrorism aide to Vice President Mike Pence, who has been standing up against what's been happening right now. So you're one of my heroes, Olivia, and I'm really glad you could be on the podcast in particular, because you have a thing with Cash Patel. So let's get into Cash Patel, the next FBI director. They let me see if I got this right. Cash Patel is threatening to sue you for calling him a delusional liar. So talk to me a little bit about Kash Patel being a delusional liar, the man who's about to become the hammer of MAGA retribution. So what's with you and Kash Patel?
- [03:23]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, so Kash Patel and I have bad blood. It's been going on since our White House days, to be honest. And that is because I found Cash to, at times, embellishment facts when it came to intelligence. I found him to embellish the truth that was not actually the truth at times on operations. And what happened throughout my tenure was that I just started fact checking everything. And you know something I never did to National Security Council. Senior directors are the ones that run the offices. And as someone on my PENSA staff at the time, we're a smaller team, so I liaise at the top and kind of coordinate with them to inform.
- [04:03]
Charlie Sykes
What was he. So what was his title back then? What was he?
- [04:06]
Olivia Troy
Well, he started off in the Office of International Organizations.
- [04:10]
Charlie Sykes
Okay.
- [04:10]
Olivia Troy
To which, by the way, in one of the meetings, he was, like, confused about who the head of the UN was. And I was baffled by that because I was like, that is the number one thing you're supposed to actually know. And then he became someone in the office of the. The Office for Counterterrorism.
- [04:27]
Charlie Sykes
Okay.
- [04:28]
Olivia Troy
And that is when it became concerning, because that person basically is responsible for coordinating the entire interagency on counterterrorism. Things they run the morning civics is on operations. It's an entire construct of experts in that office right now. Much to the. I would say, shock. And people who are appalled by this. It's Sebastian Gorka who's running the office now.
- [04:53]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, man. Just when you think it couldn't actually get worse, Right? I mean, it is like a little bit of a game. Like, okay, Kash Patel was bad. Come up with a name of somebody who would actually be worse. And maybe they did. Seb Gorka. Yeah.
- [05:08]
Olivia Troy
And there we are.
- [05:09]
Charlie Sykes
So these are important jobs involving national security. And so it seems to me to be problematic to have somebody who is a delusional and B, a liar. And you believe that Cash Patel is both of those things?
- [05:22]
Olivia Troy
I do. I'm not the only one that thinks that. I think there are several people and my colleagues that had run ins with Them that you can see that John Bolton has written op EDS about this. Very concerned Charlie Kupperman as well, who is a deputy national security advisor. These are people that I worked with on a daily basis as someone who was a national security official in the White House with them. And so we know the truth about what Cash Patel is. And I think, you know, when he talks about retribution and everything, I mean, I think I'm the poster child for it now. I think he really means it. And I attended the hearing with Kash Patel. I went to his confirmation hearing to hear what he was saying.
- [05:58]
Charlie Sykes
Did you testify? I did, yeah. Yeah.
- [06:00]
Olivia Troy
I did not testify. I was sister. And I was there and I attended it with Judge William Webster, who was the head of the CIA and served as head of the FBI. And we were there because I think it was important to show up and really look at the Republican senators in the eyes who know better. They know what this is, but I think it's fear.
- [06:21]
Charlie Sykes
See, now, this is the most interesting question because you could argue, perhaps you and I wouldn't have accepted this argument before the election that, okay, you know, Donald Trump says a lot of things. There's a lot of bluster once he gets into office, he's not necessarily going to do it. But I would think that by now, given the fact that it's very clear this administration is preparing, prepared to ignore court orders, to defy the courts, that he is, in fact, prepared to really weaponize the government, to go after people. The firing, the purges, the changing of any conceivable norm. You realize how dangerous the moment is and how dangerous it is to put people like, for example, Tulsi Gabbard in his dni, is the head of dni, I'm sorry, as the Director of National Intelligence, and Cash Patel as the head of the FBI at a time when it feels this administration is completely unchained, and yet members of the US Senate are going along saying, yeah, we're still okay with that. So just giving your thoughts about that, knowing everything they know, watching what's happening in real time and saying, yeah, we are, as United States Senators, we are voting to confirm people like Kash Patel.
- [07:40]
Olivia Troy
Which really speaks to the lack of integrity and courage to do their jobs and to uphold the oath that they took for the Constitution. Right. I think that's the bottom line. And I think what's really, to me, what's striking is that I just, I kind of want to remind them of the fact that, hey, you are putting someone who is very dangerous and is A complete loyalist and will do Trump's bidding no matter what the cost. And never forget that if you do anything that upsets these people or. And they know this. I'm sure they do.
- [08:13]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Yeah.
- [08:14]
Olivia Troy
What's to say that he's not going to have the FBI coming after you for some random thing or investigation and just make your life miserable, which is. I have no doubt what they plan to do. And, like, during this hearing, there were people getting fired at the FBI while he was there.
- [08:31]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [08:32]
Olivia Troy
Testify.
- [08:33]
Charlie Sykes
Right, Right. It's not theoretic. So I have to ask you, you clearly are on Kash Patel's radar. You're clearly on maga's radar. You used to work for, you know, Vice President Mike Pence. He's threatening to sue you. You did not get one of those preemptive pardons that were handed out like Skittles in the final days of the Biden administration. Do you think he's coming after you? How worried are you?
- [08:59]
Olivia Troy
I think it's fair to say that this is very personal for some of these people. Against me, I was, you know, an insider. This is something that came up. You know, Rick Grinnell did file a lawsuit against me, and we've seen some ties there to Kash Patel's foundation and who was funding it. So I think it's all part of the same sort of combined effort against people. And I think. I think the main part is the chilling effect. Right, Charlie? Like, I think that they think that by doing that and by bullying people, they silence people. And I think. I think there is something to be said for that, because I think as others watched what was happening to me, I could tell that there was definitely hesitation and fear of people. And it does have a problem.
- [09:41]
Charlie Sykes
You clearly have not been chilled. You're not chilled because you're talking to me right now. We're on this podcast, so.
- [09:46]
Olivia Troy
No, no. The look on their faces when I walked into the hearing was priceless.
- [09:52]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so what makes you different? I'm not asking. I mean, maybe that's too much of a. Of a. Of a softball. But. But, you know, one of the things that I think is the most alarming about the months since the election is, is how many people have, you know, capitulated, prematurely capitulated. Bending the knee. You have billionaires who are groveling. You have, you know, people, you know, one institution after another, and you know that there's a target on your back. So why are. Have you not gone into some deep rabbit hole? Why are you still talking about this?
- [10:30]
Olivia Troy
You Know, I think it's important to stand strong and hopefully be an example for others that you can. You can take a stand and stand in wavering and, and stand by you.
- [10:43]
Charlie Sykes
Why? Why you.
- [10:46]
Olivia Troy
You know, I, you know, as someone who lived this firsthand, I know, you know, everything that we're seeing play out, I have to say, like, I, I don't really like to say I told you so, but, like, I expected this and I knew that it was going to be really bad and that it was going to be even worse than the first time around because the groundwork was already being laid. Right. And I'm familiar, you know, Project 2025. I worked with Russ Vogt. I know him. I know how he views things. I worked with Stephen Miller. I was in meetings with these people every single day. And so I guess I just approach it differently. I feel like I have a moral imperative to do everything that I can and hopefully be that example for others and be there for them when they accept it.
- [11:36]
Charlie Sykes
How disappointed are you then? The fact that as you look over your shoulder and like, come on everybody, it's like watching everybody go into the tall grass.
- [11:45]
Olivia Troy
It's certainly not easy. But I will say this. What gives me hope is that we are seeing people, for example, in the leadership of the FBI or in the ranks stand strong. We're seeing people at USAID who are like, saying, this is not okay. And I think we need to see more of that. And I think that that's why it's important to be out there and saying, you can do this. It's not easy by any means. And there are people that are way more powerful and wealthier than me who have chosen a different path than I have. But if I can help continue to sort of lay the small pebbles or small bricks against, along the way on the path to help others walk through it, then I'll be here. And I think that's what it is for me, is that I want to help with that.
- [12:32]
Charlie Sykes
So you got into government after 9 11, when the country realized how vulnerable we are, what the dangers were. And I guess as we're watching all of this, there are all these. You know, it is easy to be distracted by the clownishness of all of it. You know, the new Secretary of Defense and his first act is to rename Fort Bragg, but not for the original. I mean, just some of this stuff is just so trivial. But I want to go to the heart of all this. You are a counter terrorism specialist in the Vice President's office. So you know that the world is a dangerous place. You're watching all of this. Pull back. Give me the 35,000 foot perspective. Are we safer? What impact does this have on our national security? And I mean, I'm waving my hands here for people who aren't watching us on YouTube. All of this, what is this doing to our national security?
- [13:31]
Olivia Troy
Like, the implications are massive. That's actually what keeps me up at night, is while, you know, they're doing all these things by cutting the federal government. And look, I'm not saying that we don't need to review and have oversight and look at the budget and things like that, but the way they're going about it with this whole slash and burn approach basically is what they're doing. They're breaking things along the way that I guarantee you they don't even know that they're breaking that. They don't even know the implications of what they're doing and how much it's setting us up for failure when it does come to the security of our homeland, whether it's here domestically or globally. Right. And I was reading, you know, I don't, I don't know if you want to get into this now, but like I was reading this USAID report.
- [14:10]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I do want to get into.
- [14:11]
Olivia Troy
This and in it, and I recommend people. It's only five pages long. And I, it just struck me because I've been thinking about this. Who's doing the oversight right now that all the staff is furloughed and on admin leave and what they've done there for the funds that have been dispersed because there's a lot of checks and balances and measures that are taken to oversee that assistance that's being given to countries so that it doesn't end up in the hands of isis, so that it doesn't end up in the hands of Hezbollah terrorist organizations. And the report basically says, we have no idea what's happening right now to.
- [14:47]
Charlie Sykes
Those billions of dollars.
- [14:50]
Olivia Troy
And you know, and MAGA will say, well, this is why we're cutting usaid. I'm like, well, no, see, that's not the way it functions. And also some of these programs that are being done are meant to do that kind of global capacity building and support and foreign assistance that matters for our own national security. And I think that's where the disconnect remains.
- [15:11]
Charlie Sykes
This is a really important point and it goes to the question of national security because I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding about foreign aid. I think that people think that it's sort of just sort of performative or virtue signaling. But the reality is there's hard power and there's soft power.
- [15:30]
Olivia Troy
Correct.
- [15:31]
Charlie Sykes
Talk to me a little bit about the importance of soft power. That soft power is not irrelevant power. It's not irrelevant to the question of whether or not we are safer.
- [15:42]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. And I think the thing about soft power is it really just. It's also a symbol of American leadership throughout the world and support for these countries, especially in developing nations. Right. That's why people. That's why people want to come to America. Right. Because there's hope and because they believe that America is the dream and that America has their backs and has that support, and we need to be showing that. And I think that's part of it. I mean, you know, there's. There's military action, there's diplomatic action. This is all part of a big equation that I think Americans forget. You know, and back to this idea report. I was reading about this, and it says $489 million of food assistance is at ports, in transit, in warehouses, at risk of spoilage, unanticipated storage needs. I mean, these are things that are being held worldwide for emergency food aid that have already been allocated. They're saying there's 29,000 metric trends in Houston, Texas, 39 million. I mean, so what are we doing here? This has already been transported. So are we just. These are required by law that, like American farmers have been contributed to US Manufacturers, and all of this is halted, and all of this is possibly going to waste. And so, you know, yes, we can conduct a review, but the amount of waste that is happening right now and the danger of it that's also breaking everything is monumental.
- [17:13]
Charlie Sykes
You know, I think I said this to Tom Nichols on the podcast the other day. Right now you get this sort of. This. This thrill of. Of destruction that's going. I mean, you know that MAGA and. And Elon Musk are excited that they're breaking things.
- [17:29]
Olivia Troy
Right.
- [17:30]
Charlie Sykes
Moving fast and breaking things, but they have no idea what it is they're breaking or the consequences of this breakage. I actually heard an anecdote the other day, I think was from a former director of usaid. We were on a panel together. So I'm sorry, I don't have. I wasn't actually taking notes, but he was telling the story about the impact of some of this aid in. I think it was Indonesia and that. That, you know, before. Before they had their tsunami there, there were public opinion polls showing that, you know, the United States had an approval rating in the 20s, and Osama bin Laden had an approval rating in the 60s. And so obviously that was a problem after the natural disasters, when America came in with these boxes of aid that say from the American people. It reversed. He said it was turned on its head. And Osama bin Laden's approval rating dropped down in the United States. The affection for the United States rose up into the 60s, he said that has real world consequences in, in places like Indonesia, which I think has the largest Muslim population in, in the, in the world. So these are the kinds of things that, you know, downstream. If we are not the people providing that aid, first of all. Yeah, okay. That's where I was going get. Well, who is. I mean, if I'm, if I'm the Chinese, I'm thinking, you know, break out the boxes.
- [18:57]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. I actually have a friend that's traveling in Nepal right now, and that person sent me a photo. And China aid posters are everywhere now.
- [19:07]
Charlie Sykes
Really.
- [19:07]
Olivia Troy
They've just started showing up. So guess who's filling the space.
- [19:13]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, See, this is, this is not, this is not that difficult. Okay. So there's so many things that I want to get to here. Let's, let's talk about the mass deportations. And I know this was not necessarily right in your wheelhouse, but, but. Okay, all right, then I apologize for that. I'm reading a report this morning that based on the numbers that we're seeing, the Trump administration is on track to deport about half as many as the Biden administration, half as many people as the Biden administration was deporting. And yet, of course, it's much higher profile. We have all the performative, the performative cosplaying. We have Kristi Noem going around in uniform and accessorizing, et cetera. So talk to me a little bit about that and about the, how it's going to play out that they're talking about creating these massive detention camps at Guantanamo Bay.
- [20:11]
Olivia Troy
First of all, that's pretty horrific.
- [20:14]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [20:15]
Olivia Troy
Just the thought that this is what they're doing and, you know, I guess we'll see how this plays out. It'll be interesting. Just, you know, from, for the mega voters out there that cared about government spending, which is why they're, they believe in Doge and all of this, the amount of money that that's going to take and the effort in terms of how they're going about this is, is pretty insane. And so I also think that, like, I, you know, I'm not a lawyer, but I would say that there are certainly some legal questions here in terms of how they're doing this and what is happening. Right. And so I think what we're seeing here is concerning, but I think it's all about optics, right, Charlie? That's all it is. The military planes, cowgirl, Kristi Noem at dhs, who, by the way, can I just, like, can I vent about something, please? I can't even, I don't even know that I can say this was a straight face, but never in a million years did I think that I would see a secretary of the Department of Homeland Security walk in to address her federal workforce to the song Hot for Mama.
- [21:23]
Charlie Sykes
And if you're not, that's real. This actually happened. That is Hot for Mama.
- [21:28]
Olivia Troy
Hot for Mama. And all I could think about was all of the law enforcement people, of the women that serve in law enforcement, all of us women who serve in the intel community. I mean, I just, I can't believe that that is someone who expects to be taken seriously. And she rolls into that song and I'm not going to get into lyrics. Just, you know, go look it up. You know, Come on. Send me your thoughts later.
- [21:51]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, so is, Is Corey Lewandowski doing the Walk on Music now for?
- [21:55]
Olivia Troy
I mean, it sounds like. It sounds like it. I mean, I, I just, I literally, I was, I was in such shock when I, when I, when I heard about this and saw it, and I just didn't compute. And it just told me everything about the seriousness or the lack of seriousness, I would say, about the type of role that this person is in. And keep in mind, this is Homeland, right? This is keeping Americans safe, you know, and so I think that pretty much says it all.
- [22:27]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay, so this, this captures the moment, I think is. It's, it's this balancing between the absolutely clownish and absurd with the really serious, because we're talking about, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of human lives. And it is the cruelty. That's the point. So we have Kristi Noem out there coming out Hot for Mama. We also heard earlier this week from the Pope himself. I'm sure you have seen, you saw this the other day. Pope criticizes Trump's deportation of migrants as a violation of dignity. He writes a letter to American bishops. And the Pope leveled unusually direct criticism at the administration on an issue that he has made central to his papacy. He said that deporting people who often come from different situations violates, quote, the dignity of many men and women and of entire families. The Pope wrote that he was following closely the major crisis that is taking place in the United States with the initiation of a program of mass deportations, adding that any policy built on force begins badly and will end badly. Your thoughts on that?
- [23:31]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, I think he's correct. I think we have to fix the immigration system in this country. But that's not the intent here. This is just ugliness to put forth an agenda that all these people really believe in. And there's different layers to it, right? Yes. They're riding the wave of what they believe was voters who wanted change in immigration, and they were concerned about this issue. And, you know, they perpetuated that with some of the ads that they ran and the way they talked about it. And yes. Is it true our border town, Some of them, yes, they're shouldering the burden, but a lot of it is just sort of, okay, what are you actually doing to fix the actual situation rather than doing these, like, massive ICE raids where US Citizens are getting, like, picked up along the way? That's been, that's been reported and told. I literally just had a conversation with someone who had ice show up at their door at 6am the person's a U.S. citizen, went and got his passport and said, yeah, but you can't expect.
- [24:36]
Charlie Sykes
Them to distinguish between Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. Right? Well, I mean, one shithole country looks like. Looks like another. Well, actually, so this gets. I'm fascinated by this because, of course, last week we had that whole, you know, Gospel According to J.D. vance where, you know, J.D. vance is explaining that what would Jesus do? Well, he would definitely cut off aid, you know, to, to poor people in, in Africa. What would Jesus do? He would definitely round people up, put them on planes and send them to, to. To Gitmo. And now the Pope is coming in and saying, Excuse me, Mr. Vance, I know you are a Catholic. Let me just tell you that that is not what Jesus would do. And the Pope is, you know, very specifically citing the parable of the Good Samaritan. We don't need to go all, all over that. But it is an interesting push pull between all of this overt Christianity and the substance of what they're doing. And then they've convinced themselves that there's.
- [25:33]
Olivia Troy
Not a conflict, right. The distortion of Christian values being utilized as convenient for them. And so I think that that is, I think Pope's letter is powerful. I think probably they're also watching what's happening in terms of what they said, what Tom Homan and others have said, that they're going to go to churches on traditionally sacred spaces where this was not done. And I think that is what, to me is so striking, especially having worked this issue in the White House during the first Trump administration, was all the talk about Christianity and faith and values and family values in these meetings, while they were basically doing everything that was counter to anything that symbolizes or represents that. Right. While we're sitting there in meetings talking about refugees and how horribly Stephen Miller would talk about these people and talk about any population that basically wasn't in the image of how he would like to see what this country looks like. Right. And so, and it's just, you know, it's a thing, I think, that they have found as part of the. The tools that they use to manipulate people and manipulate their followers. But I'm, I'm, you know, I hope that true Christians who are following those values and really follow the teachings of, are paying attention closely and are starting to wonder, you know, what happened here along the way. I wish they would have done that before the election, but here we are.
- [27:11]
Charlie Sykes
You mentioned Stephen Miller. You know, I mean, arguably, you could say that he is leaving the, you know, Donald Trump, who's, Who's off doing his own thing is. He was his. I was trying to come up with an analogy for Donald Trump's brain and the way he keeps throwing stuff at it. It's like a bag full of ferrets and scorpions. You know, I mean, it just goes every different way. But of course the scorpions are there because, you know, that that sort of, you know, anger and cruelty is at the heart of it. But in this administration, Stephen Miller is probably, what do you think? The second most powerful member of the administration after Elon Musk. What do you think in terms of the power relationship?
- [27:51]
Olivia Troy
No, absolutely. I mean, he's basically in charge of all the policy, really, if you look at it, and the title that he has. And I have no doubt that he's overseen all of it. And I think that was his dream the first time around, except for people sort of waver, were able to keep him sort of, you know, put a check on him along the way that no longer exists. And so I think he's definitely one of the puppet masters behind the whole thing. I think it's him. I think, you know, Elon Musk to a certain extent, obviously. And I think Russ Vout, who just became head of omd, who really knows OMB already. He knows all of the programs, he knows all the budget lines. He knows all of the personnel impacts. I think that's what Makes this such a dangerous situation that we're in because, you know.
- [28:37]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [28:37]
Olivia Troy
Because this is not a rehearsal anymore.
- [28:40]
Charlie Sykes
Right, Right. Yeah.
- [28:40]
Olivia Troy
Right.
- [28:41]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, the key thing is. And again, we've gone over this again and again. You know, Trump 2.0 is fundamentally different than Trump 1.0, because now they know where all the doors are. The Velociraptors have figured out how to open the doors. They clearly have a plan. I'm a little torn between who is more dangerous, Elon Musk or Ross Boat. Because Russ vote. Because, you know, Russ Vogt does know how the government works. He knows the very specifics and therefore can do some real damage. Elon Musk, because he doesn't. Can also do real damage in the way that, you know, that a, you know, ketamine besotted, you know, child can't, you know, going into a, you know, computer room smashing things, may not know what they're doing, but can do real damage. So you kind of have these dual who's the scariest kid with a hammer? Right. Moment.
- [29:35]
Olivia Troy
Yeah, No, I think that's a pretty accurate statement about these individuals. And the best part is that they all have egos to a certain extent. So I'm very interested to see how the, you know, the evil empire of egos plays out, because who can be the worst out of all?
- [29:52]
Charlie Sykes
Well, this is one of the things that's keeping me going, Olivia. This keeps me going is anticipation that we're going to have this. I mean, if. If King Lear was a play about clowns, it would still be very, very dramatic. I mean, there's going to be a clash at some point. Okay, so we're talking about the two most powerful people in the Trump administration, Elon Musk, or the three, possibly Vote Musk. Stephen Miller. We're not mentioning JD Vance. In fact, people are kind of wondering, what does JD Vance do all day? Except that. And I'm. I'm sorry. Schadenfoyed alert. For people who can't take this, this would be a good time to get out of this podcast now. So Donald Trump is doing his super bowl interview with Brett Baer and a lot of softballs. And Brit Baer asks him, is J.D. vance your successor? And Donald Trump takes his vice president and just throws him into the wood chipper that's under the bus.
- [30:53]
Olivia Troy
I love, like, J.D. what were you thinking? The whole world saw what happened to Mike Pence. All right, so, like, yeah, there's. This isn't. Yeah, this isn't about you. I think he was like, A safe choice for them that, you know, Trump Jr. Wanted, and I think that's why they picked him. But clearly he's just sort of a placeholder for everyone else.
- [31:22]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. See that? It is interesting. The one person that Trump cannot fire legally is the vice president. Right. But doesn't mean he can't destroy the political career. Yeah. It's like maybe, maybe JD Ought to give Mike Pence a call. You know, maybe you could, like, ship him his number or something like that. So how does this. How does this work?
- [31:42]
Olivia Troy
Here's your therapy session.
- [31:43]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [31:44]
Olivia Troy
You might want to have a conversation about how this went.
- [31:47]
Charlie Sykes
Okay. So I must admit that I had a certain amount of. I don't have many good memories now of 2024, so I have to cling to the ones that I have. There were some big, big, big signs, you know, in the area where I live, you know, Trump, Pence. And then the Pence was sort of whited out. But then they put in Vance because they had the same number of letters. Right. It was. It was a nice. It was a nice fit. So they probably may have to wipe those out as well. See, this is. People think that I'm. This is Trump derangement syndrome. But I just want to, you know, you know, point out that, you know, in American politics, even pre Trump, we did have political dynasties. I mean, we did have the Kennedys, we had the Adams, we had the Roosevelts, we had the attempt of the Clintons, we had the Bushes. So the idea that Donald Trump is the last Trump that we're going to have to deal with, a little naive. You know, if you're Donald Trump, do you want J.D. vance or do you want. I don't know which is the least acceptable of the. I mean, least.
- [32:44]
Olivia Troy
I mean, We've got Trump Jr. Waiting in the wings. Is it Eric Trump? I mean, who's it going to be? I think maybe Ivanka was. Wanted it to be her at some point, but I don't think that happening.
- [32:57]
Charlie Sykes
So there are so many different dramas happening at the same time. It is hard to figure out which ones should we pay attention to. It is interesting that that Elon Musk, who's in the process, the world's richest man of dismantling the federal government, has decided that he's picked up now a fight with Sam Altman with open AI and, you know, essentially saying, I want to buy you and Altman shooting back, saying, you know, I'll buy, you know, what's left of Twitter is interesting. This. This is why we live in Such unpredictable times, because no one knows what Elon Musk really wants to be when he grows up. Right. Except something violent, scummy. I'm. I'm. I am sorry. Okay, so I want to ask you one other big story. You know, I asked Tom Nichols, you know, to make predictions about whether or not we're going to be taking over Greenland, whether we're going to be annex. He said no, despite the fact that the President is saying he's serious. And of course, by the way, can you imagine being Marco Rubio, and Marco Rubio has to be the now, the, you know, the, you know. Yes, Papa Geppetto, you know, let's make Gaza great again. We're going to take over Greenland. He has to agree with every bullshit idea. But the one thing that I think blew everybody's mind, at least temporarily, was when Donald Trump, who's been promising the end of the endless wars and, you know, getting out of the Middle east, says, we're going to take over Gaza and we're going to own.
- [34:29]
Olivia Troy
Insane.
- [34:30]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, we're going to own it. And then during this Bret Baier interview over the weekend, he also made it clear that once Gaza is ethnically cleansed of Palestinians, they would not be welcome back. So, I mean, this is one where he's still, you know, she's trying to back away. Well, no, we're not going to spend money there, send troops there, but it's still going to be ours. We are going to ethnically cleanse millions of Palestinians, and we're not going to let them back. So put that in the perspective of where we are in the world and what the world is thinking about us.
- [35:07]
Olivia Troy
I mean, a way to unite the Middle east against America, because that's what he did, right? I mean, for the most part, you're seeing people across that region, the countries and the way they responded to that, it wasn't pretty. I mean, I think everyone was in shock. That was the equivalent of dropping a bomb during an interview, basically, during such a monumental moment. And I think, you know, we're seeing it play out. I'm super curious to see what happens. You know, we'll see the aftermath of this meeting that, that Donald Trump just had with the King of Jordan, where I think. I think the one thing that I think Donald Trump thinks gives him the most power is, again, back to foreign assistance. That's what he dangles and threatens everyone. Right? We're just going to cut your foreign assistance and you're going to do what I say so that I can build hotels so, like, I think that is an interesting dynamic to see play out. And honestly, what I think is really dangerous about this is that he's basically enabling the building of coalitions by all of these other countries against us. That's what's happening. And it is true, it's isolationist. Right. 101, but it's to our detriment. That's what it's going to lead to. Right. I mean, he, in that moment, I think, really upset our allies and our enemies in ways that were mutually destructive for each other and against us. And so I think that's one thing that we can count on Donald Trump to excel with. Is it just, you know, he just. Sometimes he speaks off the cuff, sometimes it's the last person that got in his ear who gave him that idea.
- [36:51]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [36:51]
Olivia Troy
And so someone probably did, by the way. There is someone probably who's. He sees this as the grand view of things, and he takes whatever it is, muddles it up in his head and delivers it for the entire world to see.
- [37:05]
Charlie Sykes
I, I actually have that picture in my head, you know, of, you know, all of the, the folks, you know, hanging around Mar A Lago, hanging around the pool. And, you know, some, you know, some. Somebody has an idea about renaming the Gulf of Mexico and, you know, becomes our, our policy or, or mentions Gaza or any of these ideas. They just go into that, you know, bag of ferrets and scorpions and then, and then come out the other side. Okay, so how, how do you see the trade war playing out? We thought he had backed off on, on the, on the tariffs last week. This week he's saying, no, we're going to impose tariffs on steel and aluminum from Mexico and Canada and in China. I mean, how does that play out? Is this just a negotiating ploy to get them to blink? How does. Or is he just going to claim victory? They'll, they'll issue a press release or something and he says, see, I got what I wanted, or are we actually going to have a trade war?
- [38:02]
Olivia Troy
You know, I think it could be a combination of both. I could see this playing out. I think there are some people in Trump circles at the very top that really believe in tariffs and pushing this, and they believe that it hurts China. That is definitely one significant school of thought of advisors that I saw the first time around that was always there. But I think, I do think that it's even more likely to be the latter, because everything in this entire situation is about the comms aspect of it and the publicity of it. Right. And so we, and we saw that, we kind of saw that play out in the last couple of weeks with Mexico when the president of Mexico has, you know, pretty much taken a stand and been like, okay, go ahead, bring it on. And what he does is he's like, well, I got her to send troops to the border and she's going to help on immigration. So see, it worked. Right. That's how he changed the narrative on it.
- [38:54]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [38:54]
Olivia Troy
He's like, I did this and it's a win and everything's a win for him. And unfortunately to the average American, I just, I don't think that his followers understand tariffs and the actual impact to them at the bottom line and what it means when it trickles down to them and the prices and what the paying for.
- [39:12]
Charlie Sykes
Although there are some public opinion polls showing not a lot of support for, for that. And it is interesting.
- [39:18]
Olivia Troy
Yeah. Now they're like, hey, I don't, I don't know. I'm hearing that this is not gonna actually help me at the grocery store.
- [39:25]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [39:25]
Olivia Troy
Because it isn't.
- [39:27]
Charlie Sykes
And you'll notice that he doesn't talk about the price of eggs very much anymore. He doesn't talk about the cost of living much anymore. See, the, the other thing, though, about negotiations are, you know, you can win a negotiation, but you change the relationship forever. If you've been in negotiation, there are negotiations, you come out and say, okay, you know, we got some, you know, we will continue to have a relationship. I wonder at the end of the day whether or not the real bottom line impact is that the, that our allies, the rest of the world, decides we can no longer trust the United States of America. We can't trust their word. We can't trust them not to turn on us. We, we, we have to go, we have to change our policies and go our own way. That it's going to have a fundamental shift in our relationship, not just with the rest of the world, but specifically with our allies.
- [40:16]
Olivia Troy
I mean, I, I would say that we're pretty much already there given. I mean, how can they take him at his word? I mean, we've seen this across the board. We've seen it whether it's economy, tariffs, whether it's intelligence. Right. We've seen that the way he behaves with national security. Even our allies are trying to figure out what's going on. I mean, I think there's just a number of things, and now we're seeing it play out with USAID and what's happening there. So I think at some point, you know, they know what they're dealing with, except for this time around, it's that much worse. And so I think that's what, what concerns me is that these other countries, while they once looked at us as the partner and the alliance that they wanted, right against the foreign adversaries like China and others and Russia, I think what's happening here is that why would they ever trust us, especially under this leadership?
- [41:12]
Charlie Sykes
So the big, you know, 8,000 pound gorilla in the room is what is going to happen with Ukraine? He said he was going to solve that problem. The war, he was going to end the war on day one. He hasn't done it. His rhetoric seems to have lined up with the Kremlin's rhetoric. So I guess the question is, at the end of the day, what do you think will happen with Ukraine and with Taiwan? Does anyone honestly believe that Donald Trump will not roll over for Vladimir Putin, roll over for the Chinese? What do you think is going to happen? I mean, no one knows. What do you think is going to happen?
- [41:49]
Olivia Troy
I think that he will do their bidding and he'll sell it. Which is the, the most horrific part is that he'll sell it to his supporters and his followers as he's doing what's best for America first. Right. That's what he's always said and he's done. And I think that fundamentally he'll do, he doesn't care. He doesn't even understand half the diplomacy that's happening here, here. But what he does see in people like Putin and others, as you know, we've talked about and others have, have, have referenced this and we, concerns us a lot, is he sees these people as strong leaders. Right?
- [42:29]
Charlie Sykes
He does.
- [42:30]
Olivia Troy
He, he wants to embody them. And so I think that those, right.
- [42:34]
Charlie Sykes
Now, I mean, this week, you see Donald Trump thinking, what would Vladimir put Putin do in these circumstances? What would he do to dissenters? What would he do to people who were defying him? And you can really see it playing out that he is growing into all of that. Olivia Troy, we'll end on that dark note, a dark note that I agree with you completely about. So thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate it very much. Thank you.
- [43:04]
Olivia Troy
Charlie. Sorry.
- [43:06]
Charlie Sykes
Thank you. It is. But you know what? We will get through this together. Thank you all for listening to the to the Contrary podcast. If you have not signed up for to the Contrary newsletter, please do. You can check this out on YouTube, any of the podcast platforms. And just remember, we're doing this because we need to remind ourselves that you are not the crazy ones.
- [43:30]
Olivia Troy
Thanks.