To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Olivia Troye: The Enemy Within, Shutdowns, and Jane Goodall
Date: October 2, 2025
Guest: Olivia Troye (former Homeland Security and counterterrorism adviser, ex-Mike Pence aide)

Overview

In this episode, Charlie Sykes and Olivia Troye explore the state of American democracy in October 2025 amid deepening authoritarian tendencies, the government shutdown, the weaponization of government agencies, and the chilling normalization of fear politics. The episode also features a reflective interlude on the life and lessons of Jane Goodall, emphasizing the importance of inspiration and empathy in dire times. The overall tone is frank, urgent, and laced with both humor and anxiety, as the hosts grapple with the unsettling “new normal” in American politics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Trump Third Term Joke & GOP Submission

• [01:35–06:40]

• Charlie Sykes opens with an apology for his own naiveté regarding Trump’s latest Oval Office provocation: displaying "TRUMP 2028" hats during a meeting with Congressional Democrats.
  • “I thought, no, that’s not real. That’s an AI generated picture... But it turns out that picture is absolutely real.” (04:03)
• He frames the incident as both trolling and a demonstration of power, noting how the line between “joke” and “serious” continually erodes in Trump’s orbit.
• Key question: If Trump declared he would seek a third term, which Republican would say “no”?
  • “Name one Republican in office now who would stand up against him and say no. Name one. Anybody? Bueller?” (04:42)
• Olivia Troye: No one is left to oppose Trump in the party. Formerly independent voices, like Liz Cheney and Jeff Flake, are gone; any remaining dissenters are rapidly leaving or being silenced. Marco Rubio, Troye observes, "is hanging on, compromising everything he has ever stood for... thinking that it’s going to be him." (06:40)

2. Jane Goodall: Inspiration Amidst Crisis

• [08:23–14:24]

• Sykes pauses the political doom to highlight Troye’s recent newsletter on Jane Goodall upon her passing, inviting discussion on why Goodall matters now.
• Olivia Troye: Describes Goodall as a model for courage and empathy—qualities needed today. Reflects on Goodall’s boundary-pushing research and commitment to science in an age where both are under “daily” assault. (09:06–11:10)
  • “Maybe we can draw some inspiration from her... what it looks like to have courage.” (10:40)
• Sykes: Goodall’s insight that animals are individuals with personalities and emotions represented a radical challenge to scientific norms.
  • “She let us understand that animals can be individuals, that they are sentient beings, that they have emotions, they have personalities.” (11:12)
• They connect this empathy to daily life—both mention their dogs, and how animals reflect and respond to human emotion, a microcosm of Goodall’s work.
  • “On days when the Comey indictment hit... my dog Ringo... knew that I was stressed.” (13:24, Troye)

3. The Chilling Effects of Authoritarian Retribution & Lawfare

• [15:44–22:11]

• Troye voices the very real and personal fear that comes with being targeted or near Trump’s enemies-list (e.g., when John Bolton’s house was raided and Jim Comey indicted). She discusses making plans to safeguard her family.
  • “I feel like I’m swimming in the deep end now, and the sharks are circling around me.” (15:44, Troye)
  • “It sounds a little bit out of the realm of possibility, because this is the United States... [but] I have actually now... laid out a plan to figure out how I make sure that I take care of my family.” (16:55, Troye)
• Sykes: The “fear is the point.” Cites Kasparov, “The goal is not necessarily to lock everybody up... He can just ruin your life... the anxiety it has on your family.” (17:41)
• They detail how targeting high-profile former officials like Comey or Bolton is meant to send a chilling signal to all—especially those still in government.

4. Destruction of Norms: DOJ and the Quantico Event

• [22:11–26:20]

• Sykes denounces the “utter and complete destruction of the independence of the Department of Justice”—now seen as complete, not in progress.
• Discusses Trump’s unprecedented visit and event at Quantico—a spectacle intended to project military alignment with Trump’s agenda.
  • “I think they wanted the images... what Trump and Pete Hegseth were looking for. They wanted that image... in the image of someone like the president of China.” (25:15, Troye)

5. Weaponizing the Military: "The Enemy Within"

• [26:20–32:49]

• Both analyze the seriousness of Trump’s rhetoric, arguing that his invocation of “the enemy within”—referring to American citizens—should not be dismissed as mere bluster.
  • Troye: “That phrase... is very chilling to me. ...I’ve seen back in 2020 Trump’s obsession with wanting to use the military... shoot the protesters...” (26:34)
• Troye recounts from personal experience in the Trump administration how “antifa” was used as a pretext for militarized response to protests, and how officials like Chris Wray and Mark Esper were crucial in resisting this.
• Sykes: In 2025, those guardrails are gone. “Is there anyone at that table who is prepared to tell Donald Trump no? ...I can’t think of anybody...” (32:04–32:27)

6. The Insurrection Act and “Antifa” as Pretext

• [32:49–36:56]

• Both agree: Trump 2.0 will likely invoke the Insurrection Act to use the military domestically.
  • “I don’t have any doubt that is going to happen.” (32:46, Troye)
• They break down what “antifa” actually is—a label rather than a centralized organization, often used to criminalize dissent and justify crackdowns.
  • “Donald Trump is creating, is what I would say a terrorist group in his head, and he’s labeled it.” (36:04, Troye)

7. The Shutdown: Political Crisis and Winners/Losers

• [38:35–40:57]

• Discusses the current government shutdown, its roots in Trumpism, and implications for blue states being intentionally targeted as political enemies.
  • “Trump has made it very, very clear that he is going to inflict the maximum amount of pain... cutting off billions of dollars... targeting Democratic areas for punishment." (37:51, Sykes)
• Troye credits Russ Vought (OMB) for strategic planning: “Russ, this is his dream come true... Trump really wanted this fight and they are using it to their advantage.” (38:39, Troye)
• Messaging challenge: Troye says Republicans are “running circles around the Democrats” due to much simpler, resonant talking points.

8. ICE, Authoritarian Excess, and “Mission Creep”

• [44:15–46:30]

• Sykes raises the transformation of ICE from an agency to “the symbol of much of this authoritarian overreach.”
  • “ICE is going to be the symbol of, of much of this authoritarian overreach for a very, very long time.” (41:40)
• Troye warns that ICE expansion and militarization will attract “the type of individuals... who are going to have no problem continuing to do this type of thing.”
  • “My biggest concern is... the type of individuals that are out there being recruited...” (44:15, Troye)
• Sykes: “Mission creep”—once ICE’s original scope is exhausted, the agency will inevitably seek new targets.
  • “ICE will be bigger than the Marine Corps... tens of billions of dollars coming its way.... Who are they recruiting?” (45:15, Sykes)

9. Radicalization, Guns, and Immunity from Accountability

• [46:35–47:00]

• Troye references Stephen Miller’s recent statement: “You can unleash your guns,” directed at the Department of Homeland Security—indicative of the growing, open calls for violence against political enemies.

  • “We just saw Stephen Miller say, you know, you can unleash your guns... that pretty much summarizes it.” (46:37, Troye)

• Sykes argues the Trumpist vision is one of “immunity from any accountability,” where Trump would freely pardon acts of violence in his name.

  • "If you're thinking about what would it look like to live in a country in which the rule of law has been substituted for the rule of one man? ...It's already happened." (47:31, Sykes)

Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the psychological impact of the new normal:
  • “I feel like I'm swimming in the deep end now, and the sharks are circling around me, and it’s getting closer and closer.” (15:44, Troye)
• On the effectiveness of fear as a tool:
  • "The fear is the point... The goal is not necessarily to lock everybody up... He can just ruin your life by inducing that kind of fear." (17:41, Sykes)
• On the loss of institutional guardrails:
  • “It is done. There's no question about it. All of those guardrails, all of those norms completely obliterated and trashed.” (22:44, Sykes)
• On the coming use of the Insurrection Act:
  • “Whatever's happening now... he's softening, softening, normalizing, normalizing... it is going to happen.” (32:49, Sykes)
• On ICE's transformation:
  • “Now it's like, holy crap, you know, ICE is going to be the symbol of, of much of this authoritarian overreach for a very, very long time.” (41:40, Sykes)
• On the necessity of hope and humanity:
  • “She [Jane Goodall] is one of those people who is good, decent, thoughtful, puts, you know, puts in the work and actually changes the world in a positive way. One person has that kind of an effect.” (12:09, Sykes)

Memorable/Striking Moments (with Timestamps)

• “It’s always a joke until it’s not...” (03:53, Sykes)
• “You are going to be part of the war within. You are going to be part of waging war... against other Americans.” (24:36, Sykes)
• “Antifa is not a group. There’s no figurehead, there’s no...” (35:08, Troye)
• “You don’t start something like this unless you know how it will end... What is your end game?” (40:57, Sykes)
• “I worry about the type of individuals that are out there being recruited... ” (44:15, Troye)
• “No man is a fascist, right down to his... last follicle of hair on his head.” (47:03, Sykes, on Stephen Miller)

Conclusion & Tone

The episode oscillates between darkly comic and deeply serious—with humor used as a release valve for a conversation about institutional decay, personal risk, and creeping authoritarianism. The co-hosts try to pivot occasionally to hope (Jane Goodall, dogs, baseball), but ultimately the content leaves listeners with sober warnings and encouragement to not normalize the current reality (“...we are not the crazy ones.”).

Final message: Stay vigilant, find inspiration in decency and courage (à la Jane Goodall), and remember that fear and normalized outrage are features, not bugs, of the current political environment.

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