Paul Rieckhoff: Grievance, Guns, and Power

Summary

To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes

Episode: Paul Rieckhoff: Grievance, Guns, and Power

Date: September 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode features host Charlie Sykes in conversation with Paul Rieckhoff, founder of Independent Veterans of America. Their discussion critically examines the rising crisis of grievance, social disconnection, political extremism, and the alarming trends in American political and youth culture—especially as they relate to male isolation, violence, and the consolidation of executive power. The episode also explores the failure of Democratic messaging, the dangers of unchecked presidential power, and the search for better civic leadership. The tone is candid, impassioned, and at times darkly humorous.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. The Mass Shooting Crisis and America's “Doom Loop”

Timestamps: [02:13] – [03:24]

• Charlie Sykes opens with a searing rant about the normalization and political exploitation of mass shootings, citing 381 incidents already in 2025.
  • “What the actual fuck, America. ...It just feels that it’s getting worse...the utter cynicism and the demagoguery.” – Charlie Sykes [02:24]
• Paul Rieckhoff contextualizes this violence as part of a deeper social malaise—rooted in loneliness, isolation, and the radicalization of young, predominantly white men with access to guns.
  • “We’ve got a lot of very angry, isolated, disproportionately white men who feel disconnected from community, who are often radicalized. ...We have a laboratory that’s basically breeding shooters, right, and giving them access to guns.” – Paul Rieckhoff [03:38]

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2. Cultural Decay, Role Models, and the Politics of Grievance

Timestamps: [04:54] – [08:15]

• Rieckhoff points to the rise of Donald Trump and the broader grievance culture, suggesting political rhetoric and prominent figures exacerbate division and toxic masculinity.
  • “It’s almost like it’s the opposite of World War II... Now you’ve got extremely isolated people who have not served in the military, haven’t had a common experience, and their common experience is like video games or UFC.” – Paul Rieckhoff [06:45]
• He introduces Ken Burns’ concept of “grievance,” highlighting how politicians manipulate feelings of disenfranchisement.
  • “Ken Burns...calls it grievance—how Trump is able to manipulate grievance. ...It’s really created a demented environment.” – Paul Rieckhoff [06:18]

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3. Youth Isolation & Disintegration of Social Bonds

Timestamps: [10:09] – [14:13]

• Rieckhoff, a youth sports coach, describes the difficulty of getting kids to focus and make eye contact, drawing an analogy between disordered football huddles and the fragmented American society.
  • “Getting kids to focus in the huddle...that’s kind of America right now where everybody’s talking and there’s no control over the narrative. There’s no respectful atmosphere.” – Paul Rieckhoff [10:23]
• He notes a generational disconnect from real-life socialization, with technology and isolation leaving kids and even adults unable to engage empathetically.
  • “They’re not used to social interaction in real life. They are on devices so often that it’s really hard to hold their attention.” – Paul Rieckhoff [12:19]
• Sykes reflects that while most kids won’t turn violent, there’s a wider, detrimental impact on society and interpersonal relations.
  • “It’s going to affect their interaction with other people the rest of their lives. It’s going to affect schools, businesses...absolutely everything.” – Charlie Sykes [13:06]

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4. The Role of Parents & the Decline of Shared Civic Experience

Timestamps: [14:13] – [17:28]

• Rieckhoff illustrates the chaos created by overbearing and unsocialized parents at youth sports events, likening it to broader societal breakdown.
  • “Most Little League games become adult yelling parties…It’s an assault on them.” – Paul Rieckhoff [14:23]
• Both hosts lament the loss of community institutions like military service or American Legion baseball that once provided shared sacrifice and leadership.
  • “This is an entire generation of American parents who have not had any shared sacrifice. ...After 9/11, they went to the mall and they watched it on TV.” – Paul Rieckhoff [16:32]

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5. The Threat of Power Consolidation & “Culture Warrior” Leadership

Timestamps: [17:28] – [22:46]

• Sykes segues into concerns about Pete Hegseth being named Secretary of Defense and the optics of all military leaders being summoned to Washington.
  • “What could go wrong?” – Charlie Sykes [18:06]
• Rieckhoff frames the event as a performative flex of power—designed for content and political intimidation.
  • “It’s always about one thing. ...Power. Consolidating power and growing their power base.” – Paul Rieckhoff [18:21]
  • “Trump has complete and total power over the most powerful military the world has ever seen. ...He can do whatever he wants and nothing is stopping him.” – Paul Rieckhoff [21:43]

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6. Democratic Party Weakness and Leadership Void

Timestamps: [22:46] – [30:31]

• Rieckhoff and Sykes critique Democratic failures to focus, set priorities, or offer compelling opposition.
  • “The Democrats are like the New York Jets of politics. They fuck up everything.” – Paul Rieckhoff [23:28]
  • “Just focus and pick, like three leaders who are going to be your leaders…who are going to get the shit kicked out of them.” – Paul Rieckhoff [24:54]
• Rieckhoff proposes daily contrasting narratives from Democratic icons (e.g., Barack Obama) as a counterweight to Trump’s media dominance.
  • “Every day, Barack Obama does an address to the world on behalf of America…you now have a contrasting narrative every single day.” – Paul Rieckhoff [29:09]

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7. Trump’s Open Authoritarianism & Media Ecosystem

Timestamps: [30:31] – [33:54]

• The discussion notes that Trump no longer hides authoritarian intentions—boasting openly about abusing power, backed by an unparalleled right-wing media machine.
  • “It’s like Watergate on blast, you know, every single day. ...He has a vast media ecosystem that will polish any turd in the world.” – Charlie Sykes [31:28]
• Rieckhoff highlights that Trump’s game is no longer just re-election—it’s the daily consolidation of unchecked authority.
  • “He’s playing a different game. He’s not playing, like, reelection. He’s playing consolidate power every single day.” – Paul Rieckhoff [32:30]

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8. Out-of-Touch Democrats & the Urgent Need for New Leadership

Timestamps: [33:54] – [39:38]

• Sykes likens Democrats’ approach to bringing lacrosse gear to the Trumpian Thunderdome, underscoring their naivete.
  • “The Trumpian Thunderdome, and here come the Democrats all dressed up for the lacrosse match.” – Charlie Sykes [33:55]
• Rieckhoff presses the need for insiders and defectors to break Trump’s grip, and elevates the importance of focusing on national security abuses as a path to resistance.
  • “Focus on those people who can hit him from inside and start to erode at him at his core.” – Paul Rieckhoff [34:46]
• Both hosts lament the lack of imagination and creativity among Democratic strategists.
  • “There’s a total failure of imagination in how to deal with him.” – Paul Rieckhoff [37:17]

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9. Proliferation of Unaffiliated, Veteran-Backed Independent Candidates

Timestamps: [39:38] – [45:41]

• Rieckhoff describes his organization’s efforts to recruit and support politically unaffiliated veterans for office at all levels, advocating for pragmatism and unity over party ideology.
  • “Patriotic Americans are answering the call to serve. ...We expect to have at least 25 candidates running as independents…Putting country first, people over party.” – Paul Rieckhoff [40:26]
• Successes include local and state races, with candidates running in regions where neither Republicans nor Democrats are viable.
  • “Dropping that [Democratic] affiliation…we see an increase.” – Paul Rieckhoff [42:06]
• Rieckhoff stresses the demand for nonpartisan governance, particularly in local offices like school boards and mayors.
  • “People want independent politicians who can make the trains run, fix the potholes…stop everybody from trying to kill each other.” – Paul Rieckhoff [44:37]

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10. Need for Urgent, Courageous New Ideas

Timestamps: [45:41] – [46:03]

• Sykes and Rieckhoff agree that America is overdue for fresh leadership and creative solutions.
  • “Lord knows we need new ideas. We need to throw this out there.” – Charlie Sykes [45:41]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "What the actual fuck, America. ...And, you know, we're going to go into the same old doom loop, same old thoughts and prayers, finger pointing, debate, inertia, and absolutely nothing.”
  — Charlie Sykes [02:24]
• “It’s a very dangerous cauldron that we have in this country that Trump is often manipulating, and also, even worse, extremists are manipulating. ...This is a perfect breeding ground for the Proud Boys.”
  — Paul Rieckhoff [07:15]
• “Getting kids to focus in the huddle...that’s kind of America right now where everybody’s talking and there’s no control over the narrative. There’s no respectful atmosphere.” — Paul Rieckhoff [10:23]
• “The Democrats are like the New York Jets of politics. They fuck up everything.” — Paul Rieckhoff [23:28]
• “Every day is not about winning elections. It’s about consolidating so much power where elections don’t matter anymore.” — Paul Rieckhoff [32:44]
• "There’s a total failure of imagination in how to deal with him." — Paul Rieckhoff [37:17]
• “Patriotic Americans are answering the call to serve. ...Putting country first, people over party.” — Paul Rieckhoff [40:26]

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Episode Structure & Flow

00:00–01:43
Advertisements and banter.

01:43–03:24
Charlie’s rant on mass shootings.

03:24–08:15
Discussion of angry and isolated men, influence of culture and politics, role of grievance.

08:15–14:13
Breakdown of youth socialization, implications for society, the evaporating power of leadership role models.

14:13–17:28
Parenting culture, lack of veteran/communal experience.

17:28–22:46
Exposing the symbolic power play of military summits; the broader authoritarian project.

22:46–30:31
Exploration of Democratic weaknesses and failures; need for charismatic, daily counter-narratives.

30:31–33:54
Trump's open embrace of power, media support, absence of subtlety.

33:54–39:38
Inadequacy of current Democratic strategy, critical need for defectors and alternative approaches.

39:38–45:41
Independent Veterans of America project to elect nonpartisan leaders; evidence of success and promise.

45:41–46:03
Closing remarks: call for new ideas and leadership.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers a sobering analysis of America’s political and cultural fractures, tracing them from youth sports and social isolation to nuclear-level struggles in Washington. Through unvarnished, passionate dialogue, Sykes and Rieckhoff argue for prioritizing new leadership models—especially veteran independents—while castigating the Democratic establishment for strategic ineptitude and lack of urgency. The episode doubles as both a warning and a civic call to arms: “We have to constantly remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones.” – Charlie Sykes [46:03]

Transcript

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[Paul Rykoff]

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[Charlie Sykes]

Hey, welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I am Charlie Sykes, joined by my good friend Paul Rykoff, the founder of Independent Vets of America. Good to have you back, Paul.

[Paul Rykoff]

My pleasure, Charlie. Happy Monday. Or Happy New Week. I don't know man.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, so I mean there's so many places to start. Let me just start with a little bit of a rant on a subject that I never actually want to talk about. I mean I've been doing this for a very long time and one of the, one of my iron.

[Paul Rykoff]

Baseball playoffs. Can we talk about baseball playoffs? That would be fun.

[Charlie Sykes]

I would much, I, I would much prefer to do that. I actually was more grim note just the mass shootings. Yeah, but the baseball playoffs, I wouldn't mind getting to that. So I mean here, here, here are the numbers. There have been 381 mass shootings so far in 2025. 381. Since January 1st of 2013, there have been 6913 mass shootings in this country. What the actual Fuck America. I mean, really, I just. And, and, you know, we're going to go into the same old doom loop, same old thoughts and prayers, finger pointing, debate, inertia, and absolutely nothing. And, and it just, it feels that it's getting worse. Not in the sense. I mean, yes, it's getting worse in the sense of the volume of, of the mass shooting, but the utter cynicism and the demagoguery. Everybody reacts by figuring, huh, can I score points on this? Can I blame the other guy for this? Is there some political upside for me to exploit these dead, innocent people? So, I'm sorry, that's just my rant. If you want to respond, you can I just throw it up against the law?

[Paul Rykoff]

I actually do. That's like the opposite of fun playoff baseball. But I do think it's actually one of the most important issues in America that's not getting enough attention. The Pentagon has identified domestic extremism and domestic violence as one of our top national security threats for years. But there's a deeper story that I've been unpacking in some interviews and some conversations. We have a lot of very angry, very isolated, very lonely men with guns. And that is a very dangerous recipe for a society. And it's something that Richard Reeves has written about. I've talked to Scott Galloway. Now governors like my friend Wes Moore and others are tackling this. We've got to address the fact that we have a lot of very angry, isolated, disproportionately white men who feel disconnected from community, who are often radicalized. And that's not to say they are always the shooter, but we have a laboratory that's basically breeding shooters, right, and giving them access to guns. And they're being amplified and intensified by the political rhetoric from the president most of all. And it has our enemies celebrating. So I think it's maybe one of the most important issues in our society. And I think Democrats especially don't know how to get at it, and Republicans maybe don't want to approach it. We got a lot of men, especially in their 20s, who are very isolated, who are not dating, who are in mom's basement playing Call of Duty, watching crazy shit online, and have access to guns. That's a major problem for America right now.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know, it used to be that we had the cliche, you know, it's a mental health issue. And yet I'm increasingly beginning to think that if you're above a certain age, you have no idea the world that these young men are inhabiting. The memes, the narratives What. What's going on in their world. They are so isolated from mainstream society that it's hard to, even if you read what they have been writing, to be able to translate the various layers of. I don't even know what to call it anymore. And so it feels like it's getting further and further away from us, that rather than moving toward a solution or moving towards some sort of an intelligent understanding of this, that, you know, it. It's. It's becoming more and more bizarre. For the reasons that you mentioned, the spiral is.

[Paul Rykoff]

Can I build on that? And something that's really timely, too. The Ryder cup this weekend. If you didn't watch the golf. Ryder cup, okay. Many have said this is like the manifestation of Trump's America, where the fans were rude, they were nasty, they were cursing, they were throwing stuff at the foreigners. Right. Including Rory McElroy. And. And these amazing golfers from Europe, you know, harassing Rory McElroy's wife. It was on full display. But I got to tell you, like, as a. As a guy who coaches youth sports, I have two boys who are 10 and 6. You have to look at the environment that these kids are growing up in and understand that that's partially true here. I mean, they look up every day and they see a commander in chief who's supposed to be the role model for America, saying, I hate my enemies like this. Dunking on people, the nastiness, the vitriol. The overall atmosphere is contagious. And the word that I would put on it, Charlie, is one that I got from my friend and frequent guest on show. He's on my show this week. Ken Burns. The great Ken Burns. Yeah. And he calls it grievance. Grievance, right. And how it talks about how Trump is able to manipulate grievance. And these are many young white men who feel like the country has left them behind or they didn't get the dream that they were promised on the Apprentice. So they watch UFC and they want to be UFC fighters, and they love Dana White, and they all think, maybe I'm going to be a billionaire. And. And they get swept up in some of the. The Charlie Kirk atmosphere and the Trump atmosphere, but it's a lot of cosplay, and it's almost like it's the opposite of World War II, where you had so many people who had served and sacrificed and been together, and they had to be creative and ingenious. Now you've got extremely isolated people who have not served in the military, haven't had a common experience, and Their common experience is like video games or ufc. And it's really created a demented environment that I think we have to address is producing these kinds of violent extremists, right at a level that we don't see anywhere else in the world. In the same way we're producing school shooting. And we have to have a conversation about young men, fatherhood, community, responsibility, the off ramps they have for their anger or their frustration at a time when churches are down, political affiliations are down, sports participation is down, military service is down. This is a very dangerous cauldron that we have in this country that Trump is often manipulating, and also, even worse, extremists are manipulating. It's extremists on the left and it's extremists on the right, but this is a perfect breeding ground for the proud boys and for plenty of other extremist groups that want to access those young men.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know. You know, it's interesting, since we're going down this particular road, you know, it used to be that people said, you know, politics is downstream from culture. What we're also finding out is the culture is downstream from politics. And this is something that I remember writing about, I think back in 2016 is like, you know, what kind of a role model is Donald Trump for young people? Because, you know, my kids grew up in youth sports, and, and, and youth sports used to be this kind of oasis of sportsmanship and learning how to deal with respect, learning how to deal with success and with failure, and it was just ingrained in it. And then you have this new culture where, as you point out, dunking, you know, insulting, the kind of, you know, trash talk that's become, you know, just. It become. It's become omnipresent in youth culture, in this male culture. And so it doesn't always show up in acts of violence or mass shooting, but you see it all the time, the way that we deal with one another. And boy, I remember back in the 1990s, conservatives used to be absolutely obsessed with the question of what messages X, Y or Z send to the young people. What are we showing young people? So this whole idea of the culture influencing the young people who, like, were the President of the United States influencing. That's why character matters. Remember, are you old enough to remember when conservatives said character matters? And so now you see, you know, what do young people see? And the other thing that really it's hard to get my head around is I know people who are youth coaches who expect a certain level of honesty, integrity, sportsmanship, in their. In their daily lives. And yet when they go off into politics, they will support a Donald Trump or they will support people who engage in this kind of behavior. And it's like a disconnect you would never tolerate.

[Paul Rykoff]

It's really, really important. I really recommend that anybody coach youth sports at some point in your life. I think it's almost more important than military service. And I coach this season, I coach soccer and I coach flag football. And there's an insight that I want to share with people. Teachers probably know this, coaches know this. Let me give you an insight into what's really hard right now. Getting kids to focus in the huddle, okay? Getting them to look at me, to listen to what I'm saying, to process the information that's coming out of my mouth and then go execute on a five man football field, okay? And I'm coaching kids that are six, all the way up to like 11, okay? And at that age group, I'm in the huddle, I'm the coach. So I sit there and I show them the play and. And I say, okay, everybody, let's get in the huddle. Here's the play. Getting them to look at me and focus on the play that I've written out and I'm showing them. And then at the end of the huddle, you get, okay, guys, ready, break. Getting them united in an actual, in real life form, not in a video game. Then they have to walk up to the line. And what's really important about football, I think, is discipline, right? Teamwork, discipline. Where you got to get five guys in this case, or 11 guys or now girls, because girls are playing flag football too. Get them on the same page, united and executing. But the insight that I know teachers see is kids don't look at you, they don't look at each other. They're off out here and they're not locked in. And part of what I am really proud of is getting them to focus, getting them to work together, getting them to respect each other, getting them, frankly, just to shut up in the huddle for 30 seconds. Because we only have 30 seconds and I want to be quarterback. And I think that play sucks and I should do this. I'm like, guys, you got 30 seconds. If you all talk, we don't get to play out, we get a penalty. And that's kind of America right now where everybody's talking and there's not an. There's no control over the narrative. There's no respectful atmosphere. And I grew up reading John McCain's bio I grew up reading about Colin Powell. I grew up reading about these pillars of our community that were often veterans, but not exclusively. There were people I wanted to be like. I joined the military because I read John McCain's book.

[Charlie Sykes]

So what is the not making eye contact about? What is that?

[Paul Rykoff]

They're not used to social interaction in real life. They are real people. So often they are on devices so often that it's really hard to hold their attention. It's really hard for them to have the discipline to focus. Sometimes they're uncomfortable because they're not used to adults actually looking at them and talking at them. They're not used to being in groups together.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

And this is especially important when they're young because they're, they're, they're not, you know, regimented. They haven't been playing football for 10 years. But I find the same thing in soccer, in Little League. I coach basketball. Like, especially at that young age, getting them to focus on, like, basic social interactions where you just respect the person who's speaking.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Is. Is. Is really tough. And I think that's a reflection of our, of our environment. And Trump's not saying, kids, don't interrupt your teachers. Hey, kids, let the person have the floor. He's saying, scream over him. Yell if you don' you don't like them. Them.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Like that's the atmosphere that these young boys, especially, are being taught. They think that's what right looks like. And I know we're going to talk about Hegseth. He's a great example. He's the anti example.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, this is not all about Trump. This feels, actually, as I'm listening to you, this feels bigger than Trump. I mean, it feels like we are creating an entire society of unsocialized males who can't make eye contact. Because what you're describing, and whether it's video games or whether it's the phone or whether it's just the fact that we are so isolated from one another. Where do you get empathy? Where do you get that social connection? Where do you get to see other people as human beings, as real? And so then you wonder how it plays out. Look, 99.999% of those kids are not going to be shooters, and yet it's going to affect their interaction with other people the rest of their lives. It's going to have interaction. It's going to affect schools, going to affect businesses. It's going to affect absolutely everything. And so someone like.

[Paul Rykoff]

Can I share one more point that I think.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, right.

[Paul Rykoff]

The other Part the kids are almost easy. What's really hard is the parents. And there's this great guy.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Paul Rykoff]

I recommend everybody follow this guy on Instagram called Coach Ball Game. He's a baseball coach that works with Major League Baseball. He's a brilliant coach, youth coach, and he talks about how most Little league games become, become adult yelling parties, right? This is a six year old, he's up to bat, and I'm the coach. What I do when I'm coaching a six year old is I stand behind them and I quietly whisper and I say, listen to my voice and my voice alone. Okay? Step into the batter's box. Okay? You've been practicing. And while I'm doing that, swing the bat, hit a homer. What are you doing? You should do this. Come on. Like, it's an assault on them. And then throughout the play, every sport, the mom's yelling, the dad's yelling, other dads are yelling. And these kids are just like hearing it from all sides. And the parents don't respect. I literally have to turn and say, parents, I'm the coach. I got this, right? And that is what's coming at them. So I think if you want an insight, and then sometimes, look, it's great, and there's great programs and there's many great coaches. I give coaches so much credit, but I think exploring what it means to be a leader, what it means to be a young man, what it means to be a leader in your community is really, really important. And coaches in my world are heroes. Teachers, you know, people in the clergy. We need to elevate these people because our president is the opposite of that. And this is where the Democrats are struggling. Like, who are their role models?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

I don't know who they are right now, but they need to elevate them more so they can say, this is our example of what right looks like. Not just as a politician, but as an American, as a human.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, if it's the parents too, I think we need to get our heads around the fact that there's an entire generation of people growing up in this environment who think this is normal, that this is acceptable. So you and I, we see, you know, some of this, this, you know, cosplaying playing out here or this, you know, vulgarity. And we go, what the hell? You know what? Why is someone allowed to get away with this? You have an entire generation or more growing up thinking, well, yeah, that's what we expect, right? That's the way people behave. You know, if I want to Be accepted. If I want to be a tough guy, I have to, you know, I have to run my mouth like, let.

[Paul Rykoff]

Me peel the onion back. On a level that this country is uncomfortable with, most of the parents haven't served in the military. Most of the parents didn't have that connective tissue. We vets, like, I'm going to put. We know the other vets. You can see them. You know, they're kids. They act different. They. They. There's just a different ability to click into a system where we're all working together now. Of course, they're outliers. There are a lot of great parents, but we have to recognize that this is an entire generation of American parents who have not had any shared sacrifice. After 9, 11, they went to the mall and they watched it on tv. So you got to go back to even Vietnam generation, where they had some connective tissue. American Legion baseball used to be like a pillar of American culture, right? And that was a way for veterans to come back and serve their communities and share their lessons learned and be productive. But it's been a long time since we had a culture of people who understood what it's like to sacrifice and work together.

[Charlie Sykes]

Jesus. All right, so you mentioned Pete Heath. Let's just make this a segue in. Into this. What do you. I mean, the fact that Pete Hegseth would be considered, like, even remotely qualified to be the Secretary of defense. Leaving that aside, what's going to happen at this meeting of the generals and the admirals? What do you make of that?

[Paul Rykoff]

So right before we hit record, there's a great media company site called Duffel Blog.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Okay.

[Paul Rykoff]

It's like it's the military's version of the Onion, right? It's satire. And they posted a headline that says, new master strategist Pete Hegseth to gather all military leaders in the same place at the same time.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Yeah, right.

[Charlie Sykes]

What could go wrong?

[Paul Rykoff]

I think that this meeting is just the most glaring example of how he is extremely effective as a culture warrior. His focus is the culture war on behalf of Trump and this movement and gaining the power. And that's what all this is about. People say to you and I are on MSNBC a lot, right? And I think they lose the plot sometimes. What is this about? Is it a distraction from the Epstein? It's always about one thing.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Power.

[Paul Rykoff]

Consolidating power and growing their power base. So what's a really powerful thing to do? Make every military leader come to one place and listen to your bullshit, Right? And that maybe it's some kind of secret plan on how to fight the Russians or deal with some other national security threat. Very unlikely, Most likely. And early reporting says it's going to be some kind of like, culture war pep rally. I mean, maybe it's going to be a blood oath. I mean, we don't know what it's going to be, but it's very political and it's not respectful of all these generals who have to come in, 800 of them or more from all around the world, leave their posts on three days notice to come to something that's tbd, right? With the Secretary of Defense, who's been doing nothing but overtly political shit for the last nine months. And now the President's going to stop by. Here's what I compare it to, Charlie. Do you know where the president was on 9 11? You know, he was at Yankee Stadium. You know why? Because they knew that he would get a great photo op with Aaron Judge and the Yankees and nobody will Boo him on 911 because it's 911. He's the president, right? Set it up for success. He's going to go meet the most amazing baseball player, the iconic brand. It's great tv, great pageantry. This is like that, right? Let's get all the generals in one room, show how Trump is powerful and maybe even exercise that power and say, if you don't do X, Y and Z, this will happen. But this is maybe the most frightening. I think it's the most frightening. I agree. Flexing of their power, right? They're saying, all of you come in here, you're the most respected in our country. You're the ones handling the guns. I'm going to show you all how I'm in charge, right? And that's really what this is about.

[Charlie Sykes]

So this is the question that I wanted to ask you because I, I agree, I agree with you about all that. So let's say there's what, about 800 generals, admirals in the room? So what if they go around and what if it is the blood oath thing saying, you know, we want to know how many people in this room are prepared to follow any order from the Commander in chief? How many of you here raise your hands if you are willing to follow any order that Donald J. Trump gives you? How many hands go up, knowing that if you raise your hand, you keep your job. You don't raise your hand, you're probably out. What do you think?

[Paul Rykoff]

But here's the. Here's the genius and the effectiveness that must be respected of what they do, this probably isn't going to be live, right? They're going to have it closed, no press is going to be allowed. They're going to flex security reasons why. And then what you get is a beautiful content opportunity right where you have your camera stage. Let's say everybody in the room raised their hand. Say nobody in the room raises their hand. Whatever comes out of this room will be good for Hegseth and good for Trump, because it's being staged for content manipulation and content gathering. Even if it's just all the generals go in, they didn't get anything good inside, maybe the meeting went sideways. You still have the image that you release of Hegseth waving to them when they all come in, or Trump saluting them when they all go out. They're setting themselves up for success. And that's what I think the Democrats especially are failing to understand. They are driving the narrative, they are driving the imagery and they're showing to the world, look at how powerful and in charge Trump is. And of course, the Democrats are almost irrelevant. They're like a speed bump. They're going to want to be invited, they're going to whine from outside, and they're not going to stop it. Even more importantly, Charlie, they're not going to stop the deployment of active duty troops to the newest city, Portland. This is, I think, the most important story, which is that Trump has complete and total power over the most powerful military the world has ever seen. He can do whatever he wants and nothing is stopping him. He can get them all in one room, he can bomb Iran, he can send them into Portland, he can blow up ships outside of Venezuela. And the Democrats and Republicans haven't been able to stop a single thing in nine months. That is what everyone should be focused on above all else. Because take it to a further conclusion. If he wants to bomb Mexico and if he wants to fire a nuke strike, if he wants to fire all the generals, the question you should ask is, what's stopping him? And the reality, the unfortunate reality, is nothing.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, can you blame the Democrats for that? I mean, you know, he is the commander in chief. You know, we never had a commander in chief, you know, quite this erratic or authoritarian. But, you know, and I want to talk about the Democrats and what they're doing and what they're not doing, but in this particular case, there are very few things that they could do other than find some way to defund many of the things he's doing. But they don't have the vote. So what do you think so?

[Paul Rykoff]

So I, I don't ever want to say I blame the Democrats, but the Democrats are always responsible, Right. They are responsible for their own role on this political battlefield.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

And they are responsible for whether or not they choose to focus on the invasion of Portland or shutting down the government.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Like, leadership is about priorities and about, I, I think about a message, and they don't have a message. They don't have a clear leader. They don't have discipline, and they don't even have the ability to focus on the target. So let's say they decide they want to shut the government down. I think that would be a fool's errand for them because I don't think they're going to be able to pull it off. Like, the Democrats are like the New York jets of politics. They up everything. So they do have to try to pick winnable fights and the most important fights, and I think the expansion of the military, for example, saying we want to rein in the power of the president, that is a good priority. That is a potentially winnable fight. That's something conservatives like Rand Paul and others at least, will support. Some moderate conservatives might support. When he bombed Iran and never consulted Congress and never provided an update, there were some Republicans who said, yeah, that's kind of fucked up. We might be with you on that. But they couldn't keep the focus. They bounced onto something else. So I think the Democrats are responsible if they want to take it to that extreme and say, yes, we're going to defund the 82nd Airborne because you're sending them into Portland.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Or we want to defund an aspect of the National Guard. I think there are options on the table, but even more importantly, the one thing they could do is focus. Just focus and pick, like three leaders who are going to be your leaders, who aren't Chuck Schumer and Akeem Jeffries, who are going to get the shit kicked out of them.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

It's like watching them send the weakest fighter into the ring over and over again. And they keep losing, saying, oh, but we're losing. Well, there are other fighters on the bench. There are people like Wes Moore, who I use as an example, right. Who I think has been uniquely effective, for example, in challenging Trump on some of the national security stuff.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

He's a better fighter on this than Gavin Newsom. So I can always criticize the Democrats. I'm not counting on them to save us. I am willing to call accountability on everybody. Of course, the moderate Republicans, especially when democracy is under Attack like this, I think anybody in elected office has a responsibility to answer, okay, so try to slow it down.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay, so we're about to have a government shutdown. I mean, it's going to happen, you know, within. Within, within hours. And, you know, so the Democrats are going to have to figure out whether they're able to message this, whether they're able to win this. I mean, obviously they can say, look, you know, Donald Trump, you control all three branches. You control the presidency, the House and the Senate. This is your job to keep the lights on. We didn't shut the government down. You're not able to keep it up. Do they have any alternative to shut it down? And. Well, just give me a sense, because I see you. You have used the word phalocrat.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah, it's good, right? I think that's what we should call them, the phalocrats. Because this is not a judgment. This is a judgment of one thing, Results.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

The scoreboard. Scoreboard matters, right? What have the Democrats won on in nine months?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Combination.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

Like, everybody from Cash Patel to Kennedy to Hexeth are just rolling them on everything. And to your question of, like, do they want to shut the government down? So before they decide to shut the government down, what they should say is, okay, who's going to be our messenger? Chuck Schumer, who half the Democratic Party doesn't even support. And let's also decide, should they pick that fight? Because polling says 43% of Democrats don't want to shut the government down.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

So they don't even have their own base. This is where they get ahead of their skis, and I think they get themselves set up to get destroyed. So you got Hakeem Jeffries and maybe, I don't know, Klobuchar and maybe Gavin Newsom. And they're all going to get rolled because whether or not Trump has all three levers of government, Trump has the narrative, Trump has the microphone, and he's going to make the Democrats look weak. He's going to make them look like they're the problem. He's going to roll them over and put the full court press on them. And the Democrats, the end result here is going to be whether the government shuts down or not, Democrats are going to look worse, Trump's going to look stronger, and overall Democratic brand popularity.

[Charlie Sykes]

What should they do? So what. So what should. What should they do? I don't think they have any alternative other than, given what Trump is doing. You cannot vote to fund Donald Trump's government. Right now, my Question is, and I have a real problem with this, is once you do that, what is your exit strategy? What is the end game here? And I'm not sure. Do they think there's a good one?

[Paul Rykoff]

Keep this in mind, right? Here's what you're doing. You're giving Donald Trump a layup. He wants to shut down the government. He doesn't believe in government. He thinks government's a failure to begin with, Right? He wants to rip it all across. He put Doge in place to dismantle it. And now the Democrats saying, hey, we're gonna threaten you with a shutdown.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

And here's the key thing about Republicans. When Republicans do a shutdown, you know this, Charlie, what do they have? They have unity. They're all locked in. And Democrats do not have the unity to hold the line on the shutdown. So before the shutdown even happens, Democrats are going to start splintering, and you're going to. What's Mikey Sherrill gonna say in New Jersey? She's in favor of a shutdown when she's running for governor and she's running neck and neck. So I think, to really put a. Put a point on this, I don't think they should pick this fight. I don't think they can win this fight. And I think they should move on to fights they can win, like Epstein. I think they should pick their spots on fights they can win, like Trump totally taking over the military. I. I think they can win on fights like Kennedy, who has tremendously low approval ratings and everybody thinks is a lunatic.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

Those are winnable fights. And somebody in the Democratic Party has to help them prioritize. And this is one thing the Democrats haven't done, that I keep talking about. Pull everybody off the bench. Where is Barack Obama? Barack Obama and Michelle Obama, whether you like them or not, they're arguably two of the most effective communicators of our generation. Pull in Bill Clinton. Pull in everybody you can who. Who knows how to communicate.

[Charlie Sykes]

Maybe more problematic these days, maybe, but maybe not.

[Paul Rykoff]

Because here's what they're good at, right? Here's what I would propose. I've been saying this for a while, Charlie. Every day, Barack Obama does an address to the world on behalf of America, right? That's what Gavin Newsom did for, like, a week, and then he stopped doing it for whatever reason, right? Every morning you got Donald Trump over here, and what did Barack Obama say? Here it is. You now have a contrasting narrative every single day. And he's the best example, I think, right I don't expect George Bush to come off the sidelines. I don't expect others. But I use that as an example because it's how far behind the Democrats are.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

And it's their best warrior to put in the ring right now until somebody else rises up to contrast the daily narrative that is Trump. So that's one thing they can do. And if it's not going to be Trump, I mean, it's not going to be Obama. Pick a Democrat of the day, right, and do a daily message on behalf of the opposition as to what it is you think the world, and not just America, the world needs to hear. So you can at least show the world that we're all not crazy. That would be nice.

[Charlie Sykes]

That would be helpful. You know, one of the paradoxes of what Trump is doing right now, and I'm not sure whether this is an opening for Democrats or not, is he really is. There's no subtlety, there's no mystery. There's no hiding what he's doing that, you know, that he's gonna, you know, order the Department of Justice to go out and charge his political enemies. I mean, Richard Nixon might have had an enemies list, but you had to have a. Like a secret tape to find out about it. Trump is, like, saying, fuck it. I'm just gonna, you know, put on a loudspeaker that we're going to do all this. It's like. It's like Watergate on blast, you know, every single day. And there's part of him that clearly just no longer cares whether the public is behind him. So, I mean, people, you know, are constantly talking about what about the public opinion polls showing him underwater? Well, you know, I'm. I have this instinct that he sits in the Oval Office with, you know, that weird homunculus, Stephen Miller, and the only question he really asked is not, am I underwater? Naturally says, is the base still with me? Is that, can I get away with this? Am I going to be able to do this? And plus, right now, he has the power, and he doesn't care whether the public likes it or not, which makes him incredibly dangerous. But it also means that he's not out there winning converts. He's not out there persuading Americans. He's not out there trying to make the shittiest things he's doing look better than him. Now he's got a vast media ecosystem that will polish any turd in the world. And I'm sorry for the use of language, but, I mean, this is. This is a huge asset Richard Nixon never had that, no matter what he does. You know, I mean, you said he gave that embarrassing speech to the U.N. i mean, it was the. It was a farce. He has a fit about an escalator, and yet you turn on Fox News and like, daddy's home. And this is really great. Are you kidding me? The North Koreans are embarrassed watching.

[Paul Rykoff]

This is really important, Charlie. And you and I have kind of talked about this a bit on television, and I think especially our friends at MSNBC missed this.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

He's playing a different game. He's not playing, like, reelection. He's playing consolidate power every single day.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

I control the entire military.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

I control the economy. I control everything. And every day is not about winning elections. It's about consolidating so much power where elections don't matter anymore. And that's where the Democrats are always behind the net. But they lose the plot. Like, well, we're going to fight them on the midterms. Do a lot of Democrats really have confidence that they're going to. They're going to win in the midterms?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Or that we're going to. Where are we going to be by the midterms?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

This, like, hold out hope that the Democrats can fail spectacularly in another generationally important election. That's what we're hoping. The people who brought you Kamala Harris are going to win the midterms. Like, I think we have to bring it back to always recognizing that what he's trying to do is consolidate power and try to block those consolidations of power in any way you can in the courts, in the budgets, in the narratives. Slow him down, distract him as you try to work toward a midterm. And hopefully, you know something sooner. Impeachment is a great example for all the Democrats who were talking so big. Where are the Democrats who are filing articles of impeachment? Not one. None of them.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Are they really using everything they have?

[Charlie Sykes]

Here's a larger theme that I think we're getting at here is that they're playing completely different games. They're in completely different narratives. Now, sometimes I say it's like, which movie are you in? Are you in a comedy? Or are you in a tragedy or are you in an historical drama? Are you in a horror show? Or even a better one? I mean, I have this image that basically, here we have the Trumpian Thunderdome, and here come the Democrats all dressed up for the lacrosse match. You know, it's like, no, this is.

[Paul Rykoff]

Not what we are playing. The Democrats are all Waiting for the next showing of the movie. And Trump's on Netflix, ordering it on demand. Like it's an entirely different landscape right now.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

And I think I keep coming back to this, like, what I would be focused on if I was a Democrat. Defectors, like, who can you get internally to turn on Trump from within? The first cabinet secretary who goes out.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

That person and Hegseth was an insight into that. Hegseth's former lieutenants who turned on him and started to leak. Hegseth had times when he was on the ropes, right, like those insiders turning on Trump, Republicans who are willing to cross the Rubicon. That's a good use of your time to focus on those people who can hit him from inside and start to erode at him at his core. So, you know, I think it's really, really important, Charlie, that people always focus most of all on national security, because there's so much coming at you, right, that they just kind of forgot, oh, he hit boats off Venezuela, he hit Iran. He's hit multiple countries just in the first nine months with no congressional approval, no funding authorizations, not even a consult. So he's saying, not only can I bomb Iran, I can invade Portland. And this is what I say to Congress.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

So I, I think, I, I think that is really the Democrat. The question for the Democrats and for Republicans every day should be, what are you doing to stop him? Whatever the thing is, he's going to bring all the generals to D.C. what are you going to do to stop him? What is your strategy?

[Charlie Sykes]

What would they do? But, okay, I, I, I get the criticism, but, but what could you do to stop him from bringing the generals? I mean, there's you, you want them to have a message. I get that, but given the way the system is structured, particularly with the way the courts have been giving him.

[Paul Rykoff]

Let me give you an example. To give you a question. Tammy Duckworth, who is a, an amputee, a Democrat from Illinois, she's demanding answers, right? This is not the greatest thing, but she's saying she wants to know about the cost. She wants to know the reason. She's filed, you know, a letter to Pete Hegseth. He's trying to get other folks on board. It would be nice to have Republicans to join that.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right?

[Paul Rykoff]

But at least she's trying to demand answers. She's trying to look under the hood. She's focused on this and not just taking it as a mulligan and saying, okay, Trump's just going to do it, and I'm going to let him. I think, especially when it comes to national security, you have to fight for every inch, especially when it comes to consolidations of power. And there's the political fight, but there's also the narrative fight. And you have to find retired generals who say this is wrong. Maybe you, you, you negotiate a counter event where other generals are somewhere else. Right? Retired generals who can be around to offer insight, but it's just a real lack of creativity. And you, you and I have talked about this a lot. There's a total failure of imagination in how to deal with him. And it seems to be compounding itself. I mean, I could spitball ideas with you all day long, but the reality is nobody Democrats job to come up with alternative strategies. And it's part of why I think they're the failocrats and people should declare their independence from both parties. Exercise your personal power, don't give any party your name and your allegiance and your money and demand change.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, I would, I would like to think that they will use the shutdown in a way to do what you're describing, you know, fight every single inch. Unfortunately, I actually was doing a Google search on things that I've written in the past under the title, you know, political malpractice. And boy, a lot of them came up and they had a lot to do with Schumer. And the problem with Chuck Schumer is, I mean, talk about the wrong man for the wrong moment. I mean, there are certain times and I think this has been one of the problems. And I think Democrats need to get their heads around the fact that if they say, and they believe, and I think they do believe, that this is an existential threat, like start behaving like it. Stop.

[Paul Rykoff]

Even more importantly, Charlie, this is, this is the one we gotta put. Pick different leaders, right? Like Chuck Schumer is going to defend the shutdown. You know what Trump did? Trump put Dana White on 60 Minutes to Talk about how he's going to have a UFC fight. So you got Dana White. This is literally what it is for Americans now. Dana White versus Chuck Schumer, okay? Who is going to win that narrative? Who's going to fight? Fight for your attention? Because we're in an attention economy, right? And if Chuck Schumer was a show, he would have been canceled 20 years ago. And Dana White is packing auditoriums around the world. So they have to understand they need the showmanship, they need the content. I'll go back to somebody like Westmore. I use him as an example. Yeah, Governor Westmore is dynamic. He can catch balls from Lamar Jackson, he can go out into rural areas, he can play the game, he can go on Joe Rogan, he can go on Jimmy Fallon, he can call crack crabs and drink beers. Like you need more of these multi sport athletes like Wes Moore, who you can legitimately put up against Joe Rogan, you can put up against Dana White. Charlie Kirk was on that landscape, right? Everybody says to me, who is the liberal version of Charlie Kirk? There isn't one. The Democrats don't really have Ezra Klein. Like, what do they have that's close to Charlie Kirk, really?

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Nothing.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Paul Rykoff]

Not that they're bringing. Part of it is I fight.

[Charlie Sykes]

So let's actually, you know, close the circle here where we actually started. Because one of the things that you're doing is you are actively recruiting veterans and the kinds of role models that you're talking about to run for public office. We need a whole new generation of leaders that come from a different thing. You know, instead of necessarily just going to Ivy League law schools, you know, and, you know, McKinsey consulting firms for people, we're looking, you're looking at other folks. Give me a sense. I mean, you know, what, what is happening? I mean, are you having success in getting people like you are describing to say, okay, I'm willing to jump into the cesspool of American politics and put myself on the line? Because it's, it's, it's a tough sell. Now the answer is yeah.

[Paul Rykoff]

The answer is yes. Patriotic Americans are answering the call to serve. We started Independent Veterans of America last year on July 4th. We endorsed 11 candidates and four. One.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

And there were little races like mayor of Ridgecrest, California. Okay. But it was also big races like Dan Osborne, who almost won in Nebraska, came close fight. Now this year we expect to have at least 25 candidates running as independents, not as Democrats or Republicans, as unaffiliated veterans who are putting country first, putting people over party. A very populous message, right? Fighting basically everybody who's screwing America from a very pure, unadulterated place. From US Senate all the way down to school board, We've got already four candidates for U.S. senate in Idaho, South Dakota, Nebraska, Mississippi. There's a guy named Ty Pickens who just declared as an independent in Mississippi. I think we'll have half a dozen governors and we'll have many members of Congress, many mayors. But we're offering an alternative, right? And we're also bluntly offering candidates who can win where Democrats and Republicans can.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, that's what I was going to ask you because, I mean, listen, the states you just listed, no Democrat is going to win in any of those states, so.

[Paul Rykoff]

That's right.

[Charlie Sykes]

You're basically trying to, you know, square the circle here. Okay, so if you cannot beat MAGA Republicans with a Democrat, let's try something different.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah, I mean, let's use Todd Achilles is, is running in Idaho. Okay? Todd Achilles ran as a Democrat last time and now he's running as an independent because he's realized in his state the Democratic brand is poison.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Okay?

[Paul Rykoff]

And he saw like a 20 point swing just by dropping his affiliation with the Democratic Party. That may make Democrats heads explode, but the reality is their brand sucks, especially in purple states and especially in red states. And by just merely dropping that name, we see an increase. And the same is true for Democrats in some places if someone like Jared golden, sorry, Republicans. In some states, someone like Don Bacon, okay, Don Bacon is a pretty viable candidate, but when he's a Republican. Adam Kinzinger. Let's think of all the Republicans that are kind of Republican still and they refuse to shed that affiliation.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

It's dragging them down. But more importantly, these are leaders who can unify people, leaders who aren't indebted to parties, leaders who understand national security. Most of them are first time honestly, in a very candid way, like Democrats try to do. And they grow beards and go on podcasts. And we think it's the future of politics for one really important reason, Charlie. 60% of young people are unaffiliated. They are not Democrats and Republicans. The future of American politics is, is politically unaffiliated. They want leaders that they like, leaders that they trust and leaders with integrity. And that's what we're recruiting for. So if you're running, you want to run, check us out. We're looking for you. Independentveteransofamerica.org okay, so one key point here.

[Charlie Sykes]

Though is that, and I think the skepticism about independence is, are you going to end up being a spoiler? Would you allow Republicans to win? Because you're splitting the vote. In listening to you, you're, you're, you are recruiting these independents in places where Democrats weren't going to win anyway. These are not spoilers.

[Paul Rykoff]

Important. We're recruiting independence everywhere. Okay? We, we have people winning California. People run in Nebraska, run in North Carolina. We are executing a 50 state strategy. We want, we want independents in the Senate who can, who, who can form an independent caucus. We want independents in, in Congress that can, that can, can function as a fulcrum. We've already got independent mayors like Yemi Mobilotti in Colorado Springs, Tim Kelly in Chattanooga who are focused on getting done for people, and they are agnostic of the parties. And I think the mayors is really where it's exciting because we see, especially at the municipal level, people want independent politicians who can make the trains run, who can fix the potholes, who can pick up the garbage, and who could stop everybody from trying to kill each other.

[Interjecting Commentator]

Right.

[Paul Rykoff]

Like, very basic stuff. Yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

People think about local government completely differently, don't they? I mean, people actually do think about government as, as, as entities that get stuff done, as opposed to this weird notion that we have is that somehow the federal government is just a series.

[Paul Rykoff]

Of memes on the local level is very important. Charlie, how comfortable are people with Republicans and Democrats on your school board? And there are some elected school board position, like the equivalent of school board positions. They should be, in my view, politically unaffiliated. That's exactly where you want nonpartisan people on a school board at a mayor right in your county level. And the country is hungry for it, Charlie. And what we have to do is provide enough support for them to be protected, for them to be supported, and for them to be viable. And I think we're going to shock some people in the next few years. 2026 is wide open. There's an opportunity for independence for governor, for Senate, and for a lot of spots in the House and many mayors that when I come back and talk to you, you know, in 2027, I think it's going to be very different.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, Lord knows we need new ideas. We need to throw this out there. So I appreciate it. Paul Reichoff, thank you so much for joining me again. I appreciate it very much. All your time.

[Paul Rykoff]

I appreciate. I hope next time we could talk about baseball. Until then, go Yanks.

[Charlie Sykes]

Go Brewers. Milwaukee Brewers. I'm rooting for the Brewers.

[Paul Rykoff]

Oh, America should root for the Brewers. America.

[Charlie Sykes]

Look at Milky brewers are America's team. What can I say? And thank you all for listening to today's episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sachs. You know why we do this? You know why we have conversations like this? Because now more than ever, and probably for the foreseeable future, we have to constantly remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.

[Paul Rykoff]

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