Podcast Summary: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Revisiting the Nuremberg Trials
Date: January 20, 2026
Guests: Joe Klein (journalist, author, and author of the newsletter Sanity Clause)
Episode Overview
In this episode, Charlie Sykes sits down with legendary journalist and author Joe Klein to discuss the enduring significance of the Nuremberg Trials, prompted by a recent slew of films on the topic. Their wide-ranging dialogue explores the moral authority (or lack thereof) in today's America, the role of the military, police, and politicians, and the complexities of civic responsibility now. Through cultural references, historical context, and personal reflection, they draw uncomfortable and urgent parallels between the moral choices of the past and America’s current trajectory.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Opening & Current Events: Trump, Nobel Prize, and Moral Leadership
- [02:13–04:02] Charlie Sykes opens by satirically referencing reports of President Trump’s letter to Norway’s Prime Minister complaining about not receiving the Nobel Peace Prize, linking this alleged slight to a justification for belligerent U.S. foreign policy—specifically toward Greenland.
“Donald Trump’s infant neediness and his recklessness shaping the world that we are in.”
—Charlie Sykes [03:02] - They frame this incident as a symptom of a profound crisis in American moral authority and leadership.
2. Nuremberg on Film: Judgment, Relativism & Conscience
- [04:04–09:42] Sykes and Klein transition into a discussion about recent and classic films on the Nuremberg Trials, including the new Russell Crowe movie and the 1961 classic Judgment at Nuremberg.
- Klein contrasts the moral relativism of the new film with the uncompromising stance of Spencer Tracy’s judge in the earlier film.
“Judgment at Nuremberg was a far more powerful and important film… you have a figure of moral authority in Spencer Tracy.”
—Joe Klein [04:46] - Memorable quote:
“It came to that the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent.”
—Spencer Tracy’s judge, cited by Charlie Sykes [08:09] - Both agree these films—and the true story—force an enduring examination of moral responsibility and the seductive ease of rationalizing evil.
3. Decline of Moral Authority & Civic Culture
- [09:42–14:17] Klein laments the loss of trusted moral authorities—presidents, religious leaders, and public figures—compared to his upbringing in the 1960s.
“There was a really clear sense of moral authority in the world… in the world I was coming of age.”
—Joe Klein [11:19] - He ties these reflections to the present—contrasting his childhood’s multiethnic, community-oriented neighborhoods with Trump’s style, which he characterizes as transactional and lacking empathy.
4. Diminished Shame & Political Decency
- [14:17–16:36] Sykes recalls the “Have you no sense of decency?” line from the Army-McCarthy hearing and questions whether a similar “red line” moment is possible today.
“On a daily basis you would say, have you no shame? And the answer is no, we have no shame.”
—Charlie Sykes [15:28]
5. Who Can Reclaim Moral Authority: Military, Republicans, Religion?
- [16:36–23:18] Klein identifies three sectors with a potential claim to moral authority:
- The military, with its strong code of honor
- Prominent Republicans
- The religious (especially Evangelical) community
But he expresses pessimism about them stepping up, citing political risks even among bipartisanship (e.g., bipartisan military caucus).
6. Will the Military Draw a Red Line?
- [21:46–27:28] Sykes and Klein discuss whether the U.S. military would resist an illegal presidential order (e.g., attacking Greenland). Klein suggests Congress would block such madness, but uncertainty remains.
“You don’t get to be a democracy for free. You can’t have a democracy without citizens.”
—Joe Klein [26:19]
7. Stress-Testing American Institutions
- [27:28–29:37] Sykes enumerates institutions under Trump-era “stress tests”—from courts to the military to the media. He highlights the ongoing anxiety about foundational norms buckling, such as the U.S. abandoning Western alliances or engaging in imperialistic rhetoric.
8. Is There a Trump Doctrine or Plan?
- [29:37–32:29] They debate whether Trump has a strategic worldview akin to a “new world order” (e.g., a U.S.–Russia–China tripartite arrangement). Sykes notes Trump is not conceptual, but his team might be—referencing the Heritage Foundation’s “2025 Report”.
“Trump is not a strategic thinker…But there are people around him who are serious people…who do have a worldview.”
—Charlie Sykes [30:46]
9. National Service, Civic Responsibility & Fragmentation
- [32:29–39:33] Klein recalls the role of national service (e.g., Peace Corps, Police Corps) in creating common purpose, contrasting it with current fragmentation and the problematic militarization of agencies like ICE.
- The crisis in police and border enforcement is explored, with Klein and Sykes voicing distress at the erosion of standards and unchecked impunity.
“It is something different when you have a police state that is acting…with complete lawless impunity, because that is terrifying.”
—Charlie Sykes [38:10]
10. Relativism, Victimhood, and Law & Order
- [39:33–42:17] Klein criticizes the left’s embrace of “relativism” and “victimhood” in criminal justice, recalling the lyrics from West Side Story:
“We’re depraved on account of we’re deprived.”
—Joe Klein [41:21] - He expresses frustration with the “defund the police” movement and identity politics, which he sees as damaging liberalism and fueling backlash.
11. Political Evolution and Orphaned Centrism
- [44:04–51:03] Both recount their ideological journeys: Sykes begins as a classical liberal and evolves into a conservative, disillusioned by the right’s embrace of Trump; Klein likewise moves away from the Democrats over cultural and policy failures.
- Both lament the collapse of a “party of ideas” and the triumph of tribal, identity-driven politics.
12. Marketing, Fragmentation & Civic Loss
- [51:03–54:16] Klein blames the proliferation of niche marketing and choice for America’s diminished sense of commonality and cohesion, recommending universal national service as a remedy.
“What happened…was the loss of commonality…Now we don’t have very much that we do in common, which is why I think every American kid should go through a boot camp.”
—Joe Klein [51:55]
13. Limited Government vs. Civic Responsibility
- [54:16–55:56] The hosts probe the limits of libertarian individualism—it requires a baseline of civic responsibility and service.
“I don’t think you can have that sort of limited government without a sense of civic responsibility… a sense inherent in the soul of every American, that we owe the country something.”
—Joe Klein [54:16]
14. Is There Room for a Third Party?
- [55:15–57:23] Both express skepticism that a viable centrist party could break through America’s entrenched “duopoly,” though Sykes believes there’s a growing pool of “political orphans.”
15. Moral Authority in Today’s Politics: The Disappearing Remnant
- [57:23–61:52] Sykes bemoans the exodus of principled Republicans—Romney, McCain, Cheney, Kinzinger—rendered powerless or banished for opposing Trump. Klein notes that even deserving, decent figures (e.g., Lamar Alexander) are silent.
“…this party has become a cult and it does not recognize the moral authority of anyone outside that cult.”
—Charlie Sykes [59:31]
16. Democrats’ Failings, Identity Politics, and Hopeful Young Leaders
- [61:52–63:59] Klein points to what he sees as the Democratic Party’s descent into weakness and identity politics, but highlights promising younger members—Mikie Sherrill, Abigail Spanberger, Jake Auchincloss, Wes Moore, and Alyssa Slotkin—as moral exemplars.
17. Self-Critique, Lessons Learned, and Political Strength
- [63:59–67:22] Sykes urges Democrats to conduct genuine after-action reports if they hope to defeat Trumpism, noting that both parties’ reluctance to criticize their own has been disastrous.
- Klein observes that Democrats’ refusal to release a lessons-learned report shows weakness—strength is essential for moral leadership.
18. Closing Thoughts: Film & The Moral Complexity of History
- [67:22–69:02] Sykes recommends the Norwegian film Quisling for its superior treatment of moral ambiguity and responsibility during WWII.
- Joe Klein and Sykes close with mutual appreciation; Sykes ends by reminding listeners, “we are not the crazy ones.”
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On moral collapse and complicity:
“It came to that the first time you sentenced a man to death you knew to be innocent.”
—Spencer Tracy’s judge, via Sykes [08:09] -
On democracy and citizenship:
“You don’t get to be a democracy for free. You can’t have a democracy without citizens.”
—Joe Klein [26:19] -
On policing vs. police state:
“It is something different when you have a police state that is acting…with complete lawless impunity, because that is terrifying.”
—Charlie Sykes [38:10] -
On party cultism:
“This party has become a cult and it does not recognize the moral authority of anyone outside that cult.”
—Charlie Sykes [59:31] -
On Hope for New Leadership:
“Two members of our military caucus, Mikie Sherrill and Abigail Spanberger…”
—Joe Klein [61:54]
Recommended Segments & Timestamps
- Trump’s Norway/Nobel Letter Satire & Opening [02:13–04:02]
- Nuremberg Movies & the Power of Moral Authority [04:04–09:42]
- The Loss of American Moral Leadership [09:42–14:17]
- Red Lines, Shame, and McCarthyism [14:17–16:36]
- Military, Congress, & Authority in the Age of Trump [21:46–27:28]
- Breakdown of Law Enforcement and ICE [32:29–39:33]
- Erosion of Civic Commonality and National Service [51:03–54:16]
- Would/Should There Be a Third Party? [55:15–57:23]
- The Lost Remnant of Principled Leadership [57:23–61:52]
- Emerging Moral Leaders in Congress [61:54–63:59]
- Recommendations for Films About Moral Complexity [67:22–69:02]
Tone & Language
The conversation is informal, deeply reflective, and at times darkly humorous. Both speakers lament cultural and political decay but share a hope that historical memory, civic education, and principled leadership can ignite a revival, even as they express doubts about the institutions and leaders currently in place.
Final Note
Sykes ends by reaffirming the value of contrarian thinking and honest critique in troubled times: “We are not the crazy ones.” [69:19]