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- [00:00]
Dani Pellegrino
This ad is sponsored by zocdoc. Hi, it's Dani Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist but you have no idea where to start? I find that's especially true when you move, it's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc now. As a busy podcaster, parent, and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. And ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in network Doctors with over 250,000 providers across more than 200 specialties. You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast. And instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on zocdoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Now, now taking care of your health just got easier. Download the zocdoc app today. That's zocdoc Z O C D O C and book that appointment on your to do list.
- [01:04]
Thomson Reuters Announcer
This podcast is brought to you by Thomson Reuters. The best don't just do their work. They change what's possible. Cases won, audits completed, jobs saved. Behind every one of those moments is a professional who needed to get it right and did. Thomson Reuters builds the technology that sharpens insights, speeds up decision making, and powers the outcomes that matter. So when professionals act, the impact is felt by everyone. Be a change maker. Visit tr.com changemakers
- [01:36]
Charlie Sykes
your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice message system.
- [01:39]
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- [02:39]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. We have more confusion up in Maine after the withdrawal of Graham Platner and his, shall we say, somewhat less than gracious withdrawal video. Meanwhile, the administration appears to be searching for a plan C in Iran. And we have more questions mounting about yet another ice shooting, this time in Houston. A lot to go over. And joining me for our weekend podcast, our good friend Tom Nichols from the Atlantic. Good morning, Professor. How are you?
- [03:17]
Tom Nichols
Charles, how are you? Good to see you as always.
- [03:21]
Charlie Sykes
Well, where should we begin? You had a great piece. Iran, not Trump, is in control of this war, which is back on again. So let's just, maybe we should just go back and review a little bit of the week, because it's one of those at the end of the week, you can't even remember what happened at the beginning of the week. Your thoughts about Trump's behavior at the summit and the way that the European allies reacted to him. This, of course, was the NATO summit in Turkey. And Donald Trump, and this feels like we've done this before, but Donald Trump shows up blithering, angry, borderline, incoherent, gaff tastic. Did anything new that you saw at this summit in terms of including the reaction of the Europeans?
- [04:06]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, he's getting worse. I mean, he is getting, he's just, there's something, I mean, I feel like now we have to, this, I guess this is the equivalent of like a land acknowledgement, you know, But I think we should start every time by saying there's something seriously wrong with the president, just not the behavior of a normal person. He clearly has some kind of cognitive and emotional disordering going on. This is not the way, you know, it's not the way. If this, Charlie, you know, we've said it a hundred times. If this were your dad or your grandfather, you'd be deeply concerned.
- [04:44]
Charlie Sykes
You wouldn't, you'd stage an intervention of some intervention.
- [04:47]
Tom Nichols
Exactly. So. And it's not partisan snarkiness to say this. I mean, you know, you watch him in these meetings like the one with Zelensky, and, and you just say to yourself, somebody stop this. Somebody do something about it. So that's my first reaction, is that he's gotten worse and getting worse. He seems just weak and disorganized and tired and all of those things that are totally normal at 80 years old by the way. But added in with his peculiar kind of emotional problems.
- [05:27]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, the toxic narcissism, the hubris, all of that. Kind of a bad combination for somebody who has the nuclear button and is in the process of restarting a war. I mean, this is where, you know, again, I'm sorry to keep going back because we've done this so many times, but, I mean, the clown with the flamethrower still has the flamethrower. So you're watching this guy in cognitive decline. I thought what was interesting was the Europeans are clearly no longer either scared of him or really invested in sucking up to him. It's kind of like they're just rolling their eyes, kind of ignoring him. It's like, okay, we're moving on. This is the new abnormal that we have to deal with, which I suppose is progress on one level. And yet here's a guy who controls the world's most powerful military, and we're back at war with Iran, bombing them with. And again, who knows what the plan is? At least I don't. You have any idea?
- [06:24]
Tom Nichols
I think it's more than. I think they're pissed. I mean, I think they're. I think the European allies are distressed.
- [06:32]
Charlie Sykes
They're.
- [06:33]
Tom Nichols
Some of our closer friends are worried. I think some of our other. I think all of our allied friends are appalled. You know, what. What kind of, you know, what kind of show are you guys running over there in North America that, you know, tens of millions of, you know, I mean, look, they understand that we're not a parliamentary system. We can't just remove him tomorrow. They understand that Trump's surrounded by lackeys and sycophants, and they're not going to, you know, remove him tomorrow. But I think it's coming through to them to say, you know, as much as we love America and value our alliance with the United States, we're now coming to grips with the fact that for figure, you know, at a 35% approval rating, that, you know, 40 or 50 million of you are okay with this. Like, you think this is normal and somehow, you know, acceptable, you know, and that's pretty. That's pretty worrisome, so.
- [07:32]
Charlie Sykes
It is. Yeah, it. I mean, it's got to be worrisome for the rest of the world. Okay, so let's talk about. I mean, we have so much to cover today. Let's talk about the fact that the war with Iran is back on. I think the last time you and I talked, we were talking about the sitskrieg that there was just Nothing going on. Trump had clearly signaled to the world that he wanted this war done. He was prepared to pay any bribe, really, sign surrender documents. He was. It was Donald Trump, right at Verizon. And it was.
- [08:02]
Tom Nichols
I mean, that's awful.
- [08:03]
Charlie Sykes
But, yeah, he was invoking. He was invoking Herbert Hoover. You know, why do I need to get out of this war? Because we risk global economic catastrophe, which clearly seemed to give the Iranians a certain amount of leverage. And then this week, we're back. I'm done. I'm bored with negotiating with them. They're scum. And, and by the way, that sort of gave me a little bit of, you know, a little bit of nostalgia because, in fact, I'm actually holding my human scum mug here because remember when he referred to you and me never Trumpers as human scum? So now Iran is human scum. But, okay, so where are we at here? You know, you wrote it's Iran, not Trump, who's in control of the war. And David Sanger in the New York Times on Friday has a very interesting analysis. He said, you know, bombing didn't work. The tentative accord didn't work. Does Trump have a plan C now for Iran?
- [08:55]
Tom Nichols
C, you know, plan Z, plan R, plan, you know, B, superscript 4. I mean, you know, this is. He's run through all of it, and for a bunch of reasons. And the reasons I said, and let me back up and say I'm. It gives me no pleasure, as we say, and you know, in every writing about this, it gives me no pleasure to say that one of the worst terror supporting, ghastly regimes in the world is leading the United States around by its nose. But that's what's happening. Because Trump, as you just pointed out, Charlie Trump can't shut up. He has no inner monologue. So he says, I don't want to be Herbert Hoover. And, you know, the Iranians are saying, fine, you won't be Herbert Hoover. How about Jimmy Carter? You want to be Jimmy Carter? We can. You do that, too?
- [09:48]
Charlie Sykes
We can deliver that.
- [09:50]
Tom Nichols
We got a lot of guys you can be. None of them are good. You know, if you say, look, I have to end this war because I don't want to be Herbert Hoover, you know, the enemy is listening, by the way. This is really, you know, I made a point in the article saying that, you know, I used to teach at a war college because Trump and Hegseth in particular think that war colleges are nests of Marxists. But one thing we taught at a war college is it's Bad strategy to announce your willingness to fight and then follow it up with your announcement that you really are completely unwilling to fight and you hate this and you don't want to be Herbert Hoover. So part of the problem here is that whatever leverage Trump has militarily, he undercuts it. You know, he said back in April, I will eradicate this regime overnight. You know, I will kill a civilization in one day, never to return. And the whole world said the Iranians went, yeah, sure, Jan. And they kind of shrugged. And the Pope and a lot of other people castigated Trump. And within hours, he said, oh, I see, they've offered me a good deal. I'm backing down. You know, they've got his number now. The whole world has his number. You know, I'm going to do terrible thing. I will explode your, you know, your cities. I will. But he's not. So now what's he doing? He's doing these tit for tat slow motion punch ups. And the Iranians are like, okay, you've already thrown everything you have at us. We are willing to take. We are now willing to take more damage than Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, you know, all the states around us. So go ahead, you know, do what you're going to do. Say whatever you're going to say. But we're the ones that are controlling the straight. We're the ones that have our hands around the throat of the international economy. No, you know, we're not going to give you any assurances. We're not even going to give you the assurances that you once had about our nuclear program. We're not even going to go back to stuff we were saying 10 years ago. Why.
- [12:02]
Charlie Sykes
But it is genuinely shocking, isn't it, that with a crack diplomatic team like Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner and J.D. vance, that they weren't able to come to an agreement. By the way, it was interesting. How could Trump kind of threw them under the bus? He said, I'm kind of done with them. So, you know, Jared and Steve and jd they can continue to talk, but I don't see any point. So it's sort of like, these are your negotiations now. This is your thing. I'm out of all of this.
- [12:26]
Tom Nichols
But that's his life pattern, right? Something went wrong. Not my problem. You know, I said when I. When I first started writing about how badly this is going, I said, for him, it's a fire sale, okay? This casino went broke. Sell the tables, you know, mortgage the property, sell off the chairs and the beds. Fire everybody. But that you can't do that in international diplomacy. The enemy gets a vote on all this. It was interesting. Speaking of Jared and Steve Witkoff, somebody at Fox must have gotten that memo too, because I don't know if you saw, but yesterday you had. I think it was kill me at Fox going on about why are these guys, what, you know, we have a State Department. Well, no, we don't.
- [13:13]
Charlie Sykes
You'd think so. I want to, by the way, I want to get. Yeah.
- [13:18]
Tom Nichols
These guys out the door.
- [13:20]
Charlie Sykes
Well, they're kind of recognizing a lot of. In fact, you're. They're. It is interesting that having gone through 10 years of, you know, the Maga cult defending everything that Trump does, there's kind of a silence when it comes to certain issues, you know, including the corruption. Okay, so I want to come back to, by the way, you know, we're in the midst of this war and Pete Hegseth is back on his own obsession. I was kind of wondering where the Secretary of Defense was. And Pete Hegseth is mad about beards again. Is that it? I mean, this is what he doesn't. Spending his time doing.
- [13:52]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, he's mad about beards and mustaches.
- [13:55]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, well, that's important. Good. Now, one of my favorite stories of the week, though, and it relates to the summit, is it's Air Force One. We talked extensively about this last year, the big, you know, Qatari bribe. They gave, you know, $400 million jet, which then cost taxpayers probably a billion dollars to retrofit, you know, as part of Donald Trump's, you know, you know, Eagle project. You know, they all the gold guilt and, you know, the flying palace in the sky. And Trump was so proud of it. And yet we found out this week that apparently, you know, even though it's loaded with all the cool stuff, it's not loaded with the stuff you actually need to have a functional Air Force One, including, including defense things. So it's basically. This also feels like it's a Trumpian metaphor, you know, all gilded up and everything, and yet when you look more closely, it doesn't do the freaking job it's supposed to do. So just your thoughts about that. They actually had to not fly it out of Turkey because they were concerned about security and it didn't have the equipment the president needed to run a war. So so much for that being the Air Force One.
- [15:00]
Tom Nichols
Well, the real Air Force One. And I have no, you know, I have no inside knowledge about this, but. Because all this stuff is, you know, classified out the wazoo. But you know, it has defense systems. It has, I mean, come on, you guys saw Harrison Ford doing this in the movie. But it does have, we've all seen the movie. It does have, you know, defense systems that can help it evade. I mean, look, you put the president in a 747 over hostile territory or near hostile territory, taking a chance. So of course, the actual Air Force One has a lot of classified systems in it that help it keep it safe, which you should want. I mean, John Kirby made a great point the other day. Admiral John Kirby made a great point the other day. He said, look, whether you voted for him or not, you want the commander in chief to be safe in the sky. That's just the way it is. And of course, Trump said, I want to fly, I want my new toy and I want it now. And the Air Force and the Secret Service and everybody else said, well, it's going to take about two years to get this thing up to, up to snuff. And he said, no, I want to show off my new stuff. So they got in it and realized that they couldn't take it. I mean, let's remind everybody, Charlie, of a basic geography lesson. Turkey borders a lot of countries. One of them is that. What's that place? I'm thinking of Iran, You know, so. But his impatience did this. Now, personally, I would never let him set foot on that Qatari jet. I don't care if the.
- [16:47]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and there were a lot of critics. It's not like this wasn't discussed. So the New York Times has this story on Friday with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 bylines, which is always kind of a tell on this. And they pointed out this.
- [17:00]
Tom Nichols
It means they worked pretty hard on that.
- [17:02]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, the winged bribe. The new Air Force One, which Trump flew on earlier this week to Turkey, lacks the same defensive countermeasures that were security features on the old model, including its advanced anti missile capabilities. Experts say the absence of those capabilities on the plane, which was donated by Qatar, creates potential risk in using the jet abroad, a dynamic underscored by the abrupt decision by Trump to leave without it. The. The episode is intensifying the focus on Mr. Trump's demands to rapidly retrofit the donated 747 to replace an aging fleet. But again, you know, it's almost as if there's a pattern here. It's almost as if there's a pattern that.
- [17:44]
Tom Nichols
Well, but I mean, I just wouldn't. I'm sorry, somebody says here, Mr. President, step on this plane and put some of America's most classified systems on it and speak to your advisors in confidence. There's no chance that there could be any problem or there could be any security risk? No. Just no. You know, take it, say thank you, donate it to the American people. Put it in a museum. Do whatever you're gonna do. You can't, of course, you can't accept it because it's an emolument. But, you know, we don't care about the Constitution anymore.
- [18:20]
Charlie Sykes
It's not just the plaintiff. It is the pattern of, like everything he's been touching, he's inshittified. And this may seem like a leap, but it's. Whether you're talking about the reflecting pool or what he's doing to the White House. As Donald Trump becomes more hermetically sealed within his own mind and demanding impossible things, it is interesting how many of his projects and his schemes and his vanity projects are going wrong, are going badly in this administration.
- [18:56]
Tom Nichols
He's insidifying American icons.
- [18:58]
Charlie Sykes
Well, because he doesn't have the people around him saying, I know you want to do this, but this is a mistake, or, we need to do this right. You surround yourself with incompetent boobs, and you have one thing after another. And of course, Donald Trump never takes responsibility, as you pointed out before. He always has somebody to blame. The fact. And again, going back to the reflecting pool, part of it is incredibly humorous as a joke, the fact that they've completely screwed it up. But also, we see this pattern with. With Trump that he's actually weaponized the Department of Justice now to go out and criminally charge people who touch the pond, because it must be saboteurs. There must be. So it feels as if, you know, as Trump becomes more Trumpian and more paranoid and more narcissistic, there's an element of farce, but also there's a real element of menace, isn't there? Because it is the.
- [19:55]
Tom Nichols
The Hitler analogies are always overblown and kind of crazy. But there is. I'm sorry, there is Trump in the bunker mode, you know, yelling about the 9th Army. You know, that's never coming. I mean, that he doesn't. I think, you know, in his first term, there were people that could deflect him and push him aside and, you know, get him onto other things or warn him off of bad stuff. Now he seems continually shocked, and I think this is partly his age and his declining cognitive capabilities that the world that he. That he can't just say things and make them happen. Well, you notice yesterday, he's coming back on Air Force One. And he said, whichever, he's coming back on a 747. And he says they're desperate to make a deal.
- [20:49]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I mean, sure they are.
- [20:51]
Tom Nichols
That was a stupid, weird thing to say weeks ago, maybe the first few times after the, after the kind of shock and awe bombing began, you know, in the first week, said they're desperate to make a deal. Okay. I, you know, I could see maybe somebody in Tehran is at this point when the Iranians are basically, you know, signaling, using the international pilot signal of an extended middle finger. You know, they're not desperate to make a deal. They're just not. They're not interested in making a deal. They're interested in continually humiliating the President of the United States. And if that means, you know, Charlie, it's been a while since we've used a movie line, but here's one from goodfellas. I think they've got the Ray Liotta line. I had to take a beating. Everybody has to take a beating now and then. And I think they've just accepted it, you know, all right, here comes the Air Force. They're going to blow up some stuff at Bandar Abbas. They're going to explode some stuff at. You know, the two things that Trump now has come back to threatening, by the way, and I think people should be aware of this. One is both of them are things he's not going to do, at least I don't think he's going to do unless he really, you know, slips his, his leash inside the Oval and just completely loses his mind. One is, he's talking about retaking car, taking car guy. Okay.
- [22:16]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [22:17]
Tom Nichols
On the ground. You're gonna send a big ground force in. You're willing to take a lot. Look, the United States military can do almost anything we ask it to. If you tell the US Military, take Carg island, those, those men and women are going to find a way. They're going to take car guy. It's going to happen. But there's going to be a lot of coffins, and Trump doesn't like to go to Dover, and there will be a lot of casualties. So I don't think he's going to do that. The other thing is he's back to threatening war crimes. I'll blow up bridges, electrical installations, desalinization plants. And I just, as you know. Let me put on my expert hat for a moment, my professor hat. Targets like that, if you show that they are directly contributing to a military effort in that theater, may not be innocent, as the language goes, they may have given up their presumption of civilian innocence. There is no evidence of that. And Trump himself keeps saying that he wants to do this basically to immiserate the civilian population so that they will push the government to go and take a deal that if that's your purpose in blowing up a desalinization plan, then you really are premeditatedly committing a war crime. So I don't think he's well, and I don't think he's going to do that. I don't think Pegseth cares about going to prison, but I think there's, there's a lot of decent men and women in the United States armed forces are going to say, you know, even though I'm getting the order, this is, this is not a good order. And there are going to be people pushing back, saying, you can't, you can't literally make, you know, thousands of people die of thirst just because you're pissed off.
- [23:58]
Charlie Sykes
I want to talk to you about the US Deal with Iran and the coverage of that story. Look, obviously everyone, including me, has lots of opinions about this deal. But if you also want to get down to the facts of the story rather than getting lost in the hype of the headlines, there's an app and a website that can help you do that. It's called Ground News. And they have great tools to help you avoid getting caught in a bias bubble and avoid blind spots. For each story. They'll show you how the left, right, and the center covered it. The Nobel Peace center even called Ground News an excellent way to stay informed, avoid echo chambers, and expand your worldview. Take, for example, this story, a judge denied Joe Biden's bid to block release of transcripts linked to a special counsel inquiry. On the left, you'll see headlines like, US Judge Rejects Joe Biden's lawsuit asking to withhold memoir recordings. And on the right, you'll see headlines like what is the former president trying to hide? But then you can go to each source and see who's funding them and their factuality rating that shows how subjective or objective the source is. Ground News also has a blind spot feed that shows stories disproportionately covered by either side of the media. So if you want access to stories you may otherwise never see and the necessary context to make up your own mind, visit groundnews.com tc to get 40% off their unlimited access. That's groundnews.com tc so they know that I sent you. I believe that if you like this podcast and what we do here? You'll like their mission. Visit groundnews.com tc today.
- [25:36]
Dani Pellegrino
This ad is sponsored by Zocdoc. Hi, it's Dani Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist but you have no idea where to start? I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc now. As a busy podcaster, parent, and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier.
- [26:00]
Thomson Reuters Announcer
And.
- [26:00]
Dani Pellegrino
And ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in network Doctors. With over 250,000 providers across more than 200 specialties, you can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings, and book instantly. I recently had a last minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast. And instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on zocdoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Now taking care of your health just got easier. Download the zocdoc app today. That's zocdoc Z O C Doc. And book that appointment on your to do list.
- [26:44]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, is he capable of committing war crimes? Absolutely. In fact, I think he's got a fetish for that. But also the other factor would be the allies in the Middle east who are going, wait, wait, wait. You know, if you go after those, those plants, you know, we are also,
- [26:59]
Tom Nichols
we drink water too.
- [27:00]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, we are desert kingdoms. And if the Iranians take out our plants, we would be in a world of hurt. So I'm guessing that there'd be more pressure from the other nations in, in the area. Okay, so before we move on to, you know, more important things, which I'm not sure it is interesting that we're people are starting to tally up the cost of, of Donald Trump's vanity projects around was. And in my newsletter on Friday, I sort of put together a list which other outlets have done as well. But could you just run through the butcher's bill of all of this, of what we're seeing here? And I want people to think in the background that Republicans and conservatives used to care about fiscal conservatism and things like that. And this is coming at a time after all of the faux Budget cuts from Doge and all of the welfare cuts and the cuts in USAID because we couldn't afford that. It looks like this is, this is what he's spending on the East Wing Ballroom, $400 million. Ballroom, Bunker and Security center, another $400 million. $250 million on the Kennedy Center, $58 million for city fountains in Washington, D.C. $40 million for the National Garden of American Heroes. $17 million for Lafayette Park, $16 million for the Reflecting pool, Green Swamp, which is being drained again. But of course, they're sticking with the same contractors who screwed it up the first time. He spent $5.1 million gilding statues around with gold gilt in Washington, D.C. spent $2 million in shittifying the Rose Garden. And we just found out that he's been rushing his new helipad, you know, in anticipation of the President of China's Visit. That added $875,000 to the tab. And as a bonus, down in Florida, they've just renamed an airport the Donald Trump International Airport, expected to cost the taxpayers of Florida more than $5 million. So I don't know, back of the envelope estimates, we're talking about like, $1.2 billion almost solely to satisfy Donald Trump's project. And I didn't even include the arch, and we didn't include the cost of the coins, you know, putting his name on passports and everything. But I think you need a psychologist to go through what Donald Trump is doing. I actually, by the way, people know I do the podcast and there's a very large dog who's like, under the desk here. I tell every podcast guy I have 140 pound German shepherd here. And when he's not sleeping and being a very, very good boy under the desk, my dogs do go around the yard. And you know what they do? They mark their territory. They search for. They would. I am here. I am here. It feels like Donald Trump right now had the number one obsession of his life, is to mark his territory before he has to, you know, exit stage left or whatever. What do you make of the mind of Donald Trump that he is just building one monument after another and then sticking the taxpayers with a tab.
- [30:14]
Tom Nichols
Well, one of us has to do the Everett Dirksen line here.
- [30:17]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [30:18]
Tom Nichols
You know, billionaire, billionaire. Pretty soon talking about some real money. It is astonishing that no one cares about this. But, Charlie, I'll make a prediction right now. The next president, who I hope is a rational human being, will start ripping all this stuff up. And at that point, Republicans will say, look, at the cost of destroying, of doing. Look at the cost of tearing all that, you know, the, the Oval Office. I love the fact that he felt the need to put the Oval Office in gold letters. As though we don't know what that is. It's like, yeah, like that. You don't accidentally think it's the bathroom when you're headed down from the buffet. You know, it's. I think it's more than a dog. He reminds me, you think of a dog or someone, cat guy. So you think of a dog, mark his territory. I think of a little kid going around the house with a marker saying, this is Donnie's sneakers. This is Donnie's corner. This is Donnie's special drawer. This is Donnie's secret place. I mean, it's childlike, it's insecure. And it's not surprising that Trump does it. It's surprising at how many people enable this overgrown child to do these things. This man, boy. Because they think they're going to get something out of it. Because, you know, they're afraid, you know. Yeah.
- [31:47]
Charlie Sykes
Why make him mad? Why make Donnie, Donnie mad? Right. What is the harm? And by the way, for people who are not aware of that, that, that reference, this was right after the 2020 election where somebody was quoted in the Washington Post as, you know, when Trump was saying that he won the election and he was, you know, denying just a few days afterwards, and somebody said, okay, you know, what's the harmony harm in indulging his fantasy? And of course, we have seen over and over again what the harm of indulging his fantasies are. So you mentioned at the top of the program that, you know, he's getting worse, he's in decline. And you know, how many of our discussions now and for the last several years, the last half decade have centered around the fact that we have this gerontocracy in America. And one of the big stories, and I hesitate to get into these stories, you know, out of just simple human decency, but the Mitch McConnell story, the Republican leader of, the former Republican leader of the United States Senate, who apparently suffered cardiac arrest is in the hospital. We don't know what his condition is. And I guess my position is, and this should apply to everybody, that if we're going to have 80 year old in the presidency, in the Senate, in Congress, on the Supreme Court, the minimum standard ought to be a little bit transparency. Tell us whether you're alive or not. Tell us whether or not you're capable of doing the job. Because it's one thing to Have a gerontocracy. It's another thing to have what we have, which is a gerontocracy that operates in secret, without transparency, without knowing what's going on. We had the COVID up under Biden, we're having a cover up under Trump, and Lord knows what's going on with Mitch McConnell. What do you make of this?
- [33:28]
Tom Nichols
I think apparently being a member of Congress or, you know, senior political leader is better than being a tenured professor. I was a tenured professor. I couldn't disappear for three months without at least telling the dean where I was or offering a proof of life. We don't have to limit this to Mitch McConnell. Look at Congressman Tom Keene. And let me just say, actually, I think I had Tom Keene in class when he was a college student. I didn't know him well, but I'm happy for him. I'm glad he's getting help. You know, as someone who has struggled with depression myself, I'm really glad that he has brought this issue forward, you know, and was willing to speak out publicly. And I, and I'm very glad that he did that. And I wish him all the best. But neither he nor Mitch McConnell can, you know, this is these, the offices they hold are not sinecures. They're not tenured slots at a big university. They're a public trust. If you vanish for weeks at a time, the people paying your salary, the people who count on you to represent them, you owe them something. You owe them proof of life. You owe them a statement and saying, well, I've had some health problems. I'll get back to you. Not good enough. And it's interesting, these are both Republicans. When Lloyd Austin disappeared for three days, right?
- [34:56]
Charlie Sykes
Secretary of Defense. Yeah.
- [34:58]
Tom Nichols
You know, cancer. I wrote, I mean, I said there needs to be an investigation. Secretary of Defense cannot vanish for 48 hours or 72 hours and not tell the White House where he is. That's, you know, that that's unacceptable. And Republicans were happy to pile onto that. Now it's, well, you know, and it just, I think the real issue here is not to pile onto Poor Mitch McConnell who, you know, is clearly struggling with advanced age, or Tom Keene, who's struggling with a very deadly, you know, psychological condition that needs treatment, but rather to bring up the, the immense double standard between Republicans and I don't want to say Republicans and Democrats, Republicans and everybody else, that Republicans now under Donald Trump have become this kind of French aristocracy where all of their comments to the electorate boiled down to silence peasants Whenever they ask anything. Oh, the cost of monsieur's new Rose Garden. Silence, you fools. You know, the cost of putting of Liberace fying the Oval Office.
- [36:22]
Charlie Sykes
None of your business. Absolutely nothing.
- [36:25]
Thomson Reuters Announcer
Okay?
- [36:25]
Charlie Sykes
So on a more serious level, and because none of this stuff takes place in a vacuum, I mean, there are real world consequences. I mean, if Mitch McConnell doesn't come back, it's going to affect the appropriations. People on both sides of the aisle are freaking out. Like, what does this mean for, you know, future confirmations, et cetera, like that. Not to mention what it means that they, I mean, how many years are we gonna have to go where you wonder about the cognitive health of the man who is in the Oval Office? I mean, we have two presidencies in a row where this has become an issue. And I certainly understand why the voters are really sort of sick of the status quo. I do think that this is one of the factors in the prairie fire that is burning out there in the electorate. They are sick of the establishment, they're, you know, sick of corporate influence. They're sick of the status quo. I think they're also sick of the gerontocracy. But let's switch gears here because.
- [37:20]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, I know, Charlie, I got to, I got to object to something very quickly, okay, These people back in office at the voters. Come on.
- [37:29]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, I never let the voters off the hook, including, and I want to get to Graham.
- [37:34]
Tom Nichols
And one thing I'm very happy about, and I imagine we're switching gears to Graham Platner at some point here, but you know, Maine now is going to choose Platner's replacement with a convention. Bring back the conventions. Bring back smoke filled rooms. Bring back party elders. Because primaries are why you have billion year old members of Congress. Because people go, I know that name. Okay, fine,
- [38:07]
Charlie Sykes
Let's do mean I was actually on a cable show yesterday. I think I was the only one who, and I'm willing to revise and extend my remarks on this, who was saying that actually Maine Democrats are in a better place today than they were four days ago because they can put the disaster of Graham Platner behind them. Somebody who had so much baggage, who had so many scandals that I think that it was going to give Susan Collins another term. On the other hand, there is a school of thought out there that says that the way the Graham Platner decided to withdraw with that 12 minute, you know, I take no responsibility. Blaming various conspiracies, incredibly ungracious video, that he has created a real division and a schism in the main Democratic Party. So what is your take? And I'll ask it this way. Are Democrats better off today, this weekend than they were a week ago? Or has the Platner implosion and ungracious departure created, you know, just a, you know, created too much chaos for them? Where do you come down on that?
- [39:18]
Tom Nichols
I'm going to flip the question and say, is Susan Collins better off than she was a week ago?
- [39:23]
Charlie Sykes
Same question, though. Yeah.
- [39:25]
Tom Nichols
Yes. And Collins clearly wanted to run against Platner, but there was always a danger in running with Platner, which is that he could pull a kind of Jedi, you know, Trumpian Jedi mind trick. You know, who among us, you know, hasn't had a Nazi tattoo and, you know, roughed up a few women? That's how it goes. Right? And that he had this kind of solid, just like Trump, he had this kind of solid base of fanboys and kind of cultish. I mean, I was speaking up against Platner from the get go. And I'm on, you know, over on like, very liberal environments, like Blue sky. And I was getting real hate. I mean, I was getting Trump, like, cultishness about him. So that, that's one approach where Collins and the Democrats could say we were better off with because Collins was worse off and the Democrats were better off because whatever Platner's problems, he had this loyal bunch of ride or die guys.
- [40:22]
Charlie Sykes
I don't know. That's enough, though, to win a general election.
- [40:24]
Tom Nichols
Problem is that none of those people, you know, only not enough of them were women. And I think that, I think Collins was still making the smart bet that Platner wasn't going to be able to keep it together. But every time somebody said, do you think Plat, you know, what do you think of Platner? It's asked me by Labor Day because I didn't think he was going to be able to hold it together for the summer. Now, the, the danger for the Democrats is exactly as you say, the way Platner got out of this ungracious, whiny, you know, this whiny little boy who, you know, again, very Trumpian, you know, the Platner's magic supposedly blames everyone but himself.
- [41:04]
Charlie Sykes
Blame, what's that? Does not take responsibility for his own behavior, says the women are lying, and then lashes out at everybody. The corporate media, including his former allies like Bernie Sanders and Ro Khanna, who also told him he should get out of the race. I mean, he basically, you know, leaves tossing the match behind him and blowing up the house. Right. I mean that, that was, that was the vibe you got.
- [41:29]
Tom Nichols
And basically saying, you know what? They're going to, we'll win one day, but not today. Which means my people, screw this. Don't help them out, you know, teach them a lesson. Stay home. He didn't. Instead of, I started to say his magic is supposedly that he's a stand up guy that, you know, he's salt of the earth. The kind of guy that you'd expect to say, listen, troubling allegations. I've had a spotty personal life. I didn't do the things I've been accused of doing. But that's not for you to worry about. That's for me to straighten out with the people in my life and I'm going to go deal with that. And in the meantime, the only thing I care about is the people of this state uniting to defeat Susan Collins because. And that's more important than me or anything else in this campaign. And I'm very sorry for all of this and I will do anything that the party asked me to do to help come up with a good successor. Instead. The guy's trying to set terms like he has any power here. You know, my, I couldn't, I kept thinking of the, the Star Trek. I actually posted it. I posted the Star Trek meme of Khan saying, you, sir, are in a position to demand nothing. You know, he, he has no power. There's no, he's got no cards to play here. And so I think Collins could say, listen, this guy took such a huge dump in the lap of the party on his way out that his people are gonna stay home. He's gonna cost the Democrats the 5%. That will be the margin that I needed. Whoever they put up, if I were them, I would get right in. If I were Susan Collins's people, I get right into bed with the Democrat, with the, with the people on the, on the left end of the Democratic Party saying, whoever, this is not the people's choice. We didn't vote for this. Undemocratic party bosses.
- [43:25]
Charlie Sykes
So there are some lessons here and I understand that there are a lot of Democrats who don't talk about this. We should move on. No, no, this is one where the lessons learned. The number of women that were not believed, a real red flag. Number two, the more you learn about the people vetted and recruited Graham Platner, the more disturbed you ought to be. You had some deeply unserious people who basically tried to get somebody from central casting, somebody who's an oyster farmer who gave money to Bernie. Then they couldn't find any oyster farmers that gave money to Bernie, so they came up with this guy who does some stuff for his mom. Basically, the origin story was kind of bogus from the beginning, but one of the great lessons ought to be is don't fall in love with these unknown, bright, shiny objects. There ought to be a little bit more skepticism. And unfortunately, right now there is this sort of like, oh, he's a new fresh face and he's saying outrageous things. And we don't need to actually have anyone who has a track record or has, you know, a proven. Has a proven record of accomplishment or anything. We just want, you know, somebody who is going to say these meme ish sort of things. This is just not working out for people. By the way, I think some of the consultants that behind the Platner campaign should never work in Democratic politics ever again. Also, it is interesting, I do think that there ought to be a little bit more skepticism of some of the folks like Bernie, whose judgment about the candidates has not actually been sterling here at all.
- [45:10]
Tom Nichols
But, you know, let's not name names, Charlie. You know, there's a lot of people, and we don't want to call anybody out. Elizabeth Warren.
- [45:18]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, well, this guy Katz. So, I mean, I just think. I think, you know, in many ways, you know, and we'll get to the double standard here. Platner turned out to be even worse than I actually thought he was. I mean, he had the demons, the drinking, the brutality and everything, which was pretty bad and I think was inexcusable, that those voices were ignored. The allegation of rape, which he continues to deny. So as he exits, keep in mind he has not taken responsibility. He is saying that the women who are making these allegations, that they are all lying, put that in there. But I think the healthy thing is that right now, as you and I are speaking, the Democrats have made it clear that a credible allegation of rape is disqualifying. Meanwhile, the Republican Party continues to be in lockstep behind Donald Trump, who is adjudicated as somebody who has sexually assaulted. Okay, so the cat has entered the thing. I would pick up my dog, who's underneath the desk, but he's 140 pounds, and he would sit in my lap, but we wouldn't be able to have a conversation. But in any case, and I do understand the people who are going to like, well, why should the, you know, why should Graham Platner be held to this standard when Republicans don't Well, that's. Yeah, well, exactly. So it's like, because they have a rapist, we should have a rapist. Because they have lost their minds, we now should also lose our mind. It was that same case of the people saying, yes, we should embrace the Hans, you know, the Hassan pikers, because they've embraced Nick Fuente. So, no, this is why. This is why we get. This is why we don't do these. These sorts of things. But I do think, I do understand the frustration, go through the narrative of what federal juries have said that Donald Trump has done after a trial, that he actually, you know, the rapey behavior with E. Jean Carroll. He is now being told by a federal judge to pay her $5 million. And this is barely a blip in Republican politics, where Democrats are basically saying, yeah, you know what, sexual abuse, violence, rape is completely disqualifying. And they're saying this basically after 10 years of Republicans saying, meh, we don't care. Now, this is a contrast that they can now go into the election. I understand people saying we shouldn't have any standards at all. They don't care about character. We shouldn't care about character. All we have is fighting. I don't know now to say there is a difference between the Republican Party right now under Donald Trump and with Ken Paxton, any Democratic Party that just showed Graham Platner the door. I don't think that's necessarily a negative.
- [48:01]
Tom Nichols
The reason that you don't do this, I mean, I feel like. Do we even have to say why you don't do this, Charlie? But I guess we do.
- [48:09]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [48:10]
Tom Nichols
Let me leave aside the obvious moral reasons that you don't become the thing you're fighting against. You know, they committed. I mean, imagine if the US Military said, well, the Japanese committed war crimes. So, you know, we'll just start executing prisoners, too. You know, that. That's not who we are. That's not. That's not. That's not a. That's just insane. But there's also a practical reason here, which is the way that you induce shame, where it is still possible is by being a better example than the thing you're fighting against. And it should be a warning sign to Democrats that Republicans love. What about ISM arguments? They endure them. Because if you say, well, our guy, fine, you have a rapist, we have a rapist, and Republicans go, see, we're all the same. Everybody does it.
- [49:06]
Charlie Sykes
That's exactly right.
- [49:07]
Tom Nichols
The voters, you know, I know you voters wish it, but you know what? The world is a fallen Place man is fundamentally evil. You know, I mean, Ken Paxton, Graham Platner, who's to say, really, they love those arguments because it creates that moral fog that then people either feel like they have a permission structure to vote for ghastly people like Ken Paxton, or they simply check out. They say, you know what? This is all too crappy and awful.
- [49:37]
Quo Business Phone System Announcer
Yeah.
- [49:38]
Tom Nichols
And I might have voted for a Democrat or against a Republican or Independent, but I'm out. And that's exactly what they want. That's why they do it. And it's also, I think you mentioned psychology earlier, Charlie. I think a lot of our former comrades on the right, what they really hold against us, you know, as the, as the Never Trumpers, is that we, they think that we became pretentious and, you know, sort of put ourselves forward as angels somehow.
- [50:14]
Charlie Sykes
Moral vanity. Yeah, the moral vanity.
- [50:18]
Tom Nichols
We wouldn't get on board with them. And they, they feel. I always love Rick Wilson's expression of. They hate us because our existence reminds them of the pain of their souls trying to reenter their bodies. And I think what they want is for. Is for you, Charlie, and me and Rick and whoever else to say, yeah, you know what? So Platner probably raped somebody. Well, you know, who among us, he's our guy. And that. So that they could then stand up and say, see, it was never sincere. And we're all alike and we're all down here in the muck. And I, I think, you know, it's. I think it's important not to do that. I think it's important for moral and political reasons not to do that.
- [51:05]
Charlie Sykes
No, I agree with everything you said here. And, you know, there was a period. I hope the Democrats have a period of reckoning about this, because remember when Michelle Obama said at the convention, when they go low, we go high. And Democrats liked it at the time, but, you know, there's been this turning against that. Right. That, no, we can't afford. We tried that. We tried going high when they went low, and it didn't work. So maybe we should go low, too. I think this is a moment where maybe we ought to revisit that issue. And then Michelle Obama is right, because ultimately, what is all of this debate about? If both sides go low, then at the end of the day, what are we fighting about? Where do we end up? So, you know, there was that grinding that, you know, we can't have standards that, that these are, that these are luxuries that we can't afford. I don't know. Principles are not luxuries. They're what we're actually struggling for.
- [52:07]
Tom Nichols
Right, right. And, you know, that's what, you know, people like Paxton and others want you to forget to say, Listen, we all suck. Pick the guy that's going to bring you what you want. You know, don't, don't get wrapped up in all this morality bullshit because, you know, nobody's better than anybody else. No, some people are better than other people. And I've heard that many times from Democrats. When we go low, they go high. That hasn't worked. And I always come back and say, where is the evidence that hasn't worked? Mikey Sherrill, Abigail Spanberger, but Joe Biden in 2020, where they keep saying it hasn't worked. What they mean is, I think what a lot of Democrats say it hasn't worked. I mean, it hasn't been emotionally satisfying to me. Like, I haven't seen somebody kick my, my, you know, most hated Republican enemy in the crotch hard enough. Well, hey, I get, I get the need for emotional, you know, involvement in politics, but that's not how you win these elections.
- [53:17]
Charlie Sykes
And this is a really important, this is a really important point because I do think that there is sometimes that confusion, and you'll see it in the comments section sometimes, where people confuse something, you know, emotional catharsis with actually fighting effectively. Fighting effectively is winning elections. It is being successful, as opposed to just feeling good about yourself or being able to vent. And by the way, you and I both know the importance of that sort of emotional catharsis, that anger. We, we get that. But you can't confuse that with a coherent political strategy. And I think that gets lost. And ultimately, as you pull apart the whole Graham Platner fiasco, part of it was that mistaking the ID and the image for the reality. And the reality is what it takes to win a Senate election. And you have to win Senate elections, you have to win swing seat congressional elections. If you actually want to stop Donald Trump not yelling, not screaming, not posting online, you have to actually succeed in doing those things. And that's the prime directive. And so when people say to people like you and me, just stop talking about this. Don't mention any of this stuff. It's like, well, what is it is you want to, like, have a safe space so you can indulge your emotions, or do you actually want to stop maga? Serious question.
- [54:53]
Tom Nichols
I think part of the problem is that the Democrats, as you say, the Democrats in the comments section, because, you know, it seems to me that the worst of the Republican Party is a violent cult. And the worst of the Democratic Party is a bunch of angry children sucking their thumbs. And, you know, the, The Democratic. There, There is a certain kind of Democratic voter that does not understand the concept of the base. A lot of Democrats think the base are the most emotionally engaged and the most emotionally furious voters. No, the base, by definition, as you and I have both worked in politics, the base are the people that will always show up for you, no matter what.
- [55:40]
Charlie Sykes
That's right. Right. And those voters are far more pragmatic than the comment section.
- [55:50]
Tom Nichols
Part of this is also Democrats. I'm sorry, we need to excite the base. No, by definition, your base does not need to be excited. That's why they're your base. They will come out no matter whether they're excited or not, because the base understands, you know, the Republican. I keep trying to get this across to people, the Republic, they say, why do we have to be better than the Republicans? They get away with it. I say, yes, they're a cult. They will show up. They're going to show up. It doesn't matter. You could put a. You could stick a big red R and a hat, you know, on an Italian grinder and, you know, they'll vote for it. That's. That's the definition of a base. If you have to be excited or you won't show up, you're not a base voter. You're a swing voter. That's the, that's the problem. And they keep saying, well, they, you know, Platner has to excite the. You know, we need to have somebody who excites the base. No, the base are the people who are going to show up anyway. It's the people that will fall away if they, if they're not, you know, and this is why I say they're like children. I mean, unless this, unless this show gets better, I'm going to change the channel or I'm going to go out and do something else. No, the whole point of being a base is that you pull the lever for your party. You know, Now, I'm not arguing for country or party over country. There are. There have to be. There have to be. There has to be a floor somewhere. You know, Republican, even Republicans before Trump had a floor, there were people they wouldn't vote for, believe it or not, you won't vote for. But in general, as long as your party produces somebody who's not completely bonkers, by the way, I suppose this is where we nod to the Colorado governor's race, which the Colorado Republican primary has been won by a guy who claimed he had to kill a man at his father's bed at seven years old. Okay, there's going to be an interesting test of the base and where the floor is, but this constant complaint that we're not excited, it wasn't interesting enough. I'm not getting what I want. Well, then if that's you, you're not the base. That's how it works.
- [58:03]
Charlie Sykes
And also I think that there's a certain condescension about what it takes to get the working class vote to vote to come back. There are a lot of Democrats that are actually doing very, very well with working class voters, but they're not the bright, shiny objects in many ways. You know, you've heard this line that Donald Trump is a poor person's idea of what a rich person should be doing. Well, Graham Platner was the rich person's idea of what a working class person looked like. And I think that disconnect is what played out here. Tom Nichols, it has been a pleasure to talk with you. It is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks so much for joining me this weekend.
- [58:41]
Tom Nichols
It's always nice to be with you, Charlie.
- [58:43]
Charlie Sykes
Thanks for having me and looking forward to the World cup games. I have a house full of French kids and I will say they were very, very excited with France's victory over Morocco and we're looking forward to the semifinals and the finals. So you have to understand this is kind of a World cup headquarters right here in Mequon, Wisconsin. Thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this? We will continue to do the for the duration because somebody's gotta remind you that you are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [59:29]
Kat and Nat
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