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- [00:00]
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- [01:43]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. In the Middle East, Donald Trump continues to flail, outmaneuvered by both Iran and Israel, although that bromance seems to be somewhat troubled. Meanwhile, the President sits down with Kristen Welker from Meet the Press. It doesn't go well, absolutely crashes out in my home state of Wisconsin. But then, of course, the President gets a hero's welcome at last night's Knicks game, right? And joining me to talk about all of this is our good friend Harry Lippman from Talking Feds Podcast and Substack. Harry, I was on your podcast yesterday and it's Turnabout, so you know we will deal with some of the same issues but from from different angles. And by the way, since you and I spoke, by the way, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
- [02:37]
Harry Litman
Thank you. Great to be here, Charlie.
- [02:39]
Charlie Sykes
So since we spoke, the President of the United States sat down with Kristen Welker for that interview. Normally, I wouldn't spend a lot of time on this, but this, I thought it was extraordinary. First of all, I want to give a shout out to Kristen Welker. I think she did a really good job. I think that she held his feet to the fire. I know it's kind of fashionable to dump on her, but, you know, she's going toe to toe with the president. But secondly, Harry, I know we've said this before, but the ferrets running around in this man's brain are extraordinary. And we saw him revive conspiracy theories. He's defending the slush fund. I mean, it was. It was a remarkable. It was a remarkable session. So can I play you some audio runs about two minutes and please do.
- [03:27]
Harry Litman
And my. I think it was great, but I haven't heard it yet. I just want to say revive. The thing about these ferrets, and why I really liked the accounts of it is they haven't stopped running. So this is really a continuous refrain. We're going on, what, 10 years? But it is currently affecting what he does and government policy. It's not just a stray fit of temper. So please do. I'd love to hear it.
- [03:51]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and it's not. And I also think that the. That the ferrets are getting more rabid. I mean, there's something going on. Okay, so let's play this and listen to Christian Welker and Donald Trump. You know, an angry. An angry Donald Trump. Let's play it.
- [04:06]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
The election was rigged. It was a dirty election, and it's happening again right now in California. Right now in California.
- [04:15]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
Right.
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Donald Trump (audio clip)
Right now.
- [04:16]
Charlie Sykes
It's.
- [04:16]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
Look at. Look at what's happening in California. It's. The reporters are doing well in California. It's. No, they're not. They're dropping fast because it's a rigged election. Let me tell you. It's four days, and they aren't even close to coming up.
- [04:30]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
That's how they know why they're doing
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Donald Trump (audio clip)
that, because they're cheating on the election.
- [04:33]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
There's. What. Do you have evidence to support?
- [04:36]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
All I have to do is look. All I have to do is.
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Kristen Welker (audio clip)
That's not.
- [04:38]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
And I listen and I listen to people and let's see what happens.
- [04:42]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
But, sir, that's not evidence.
- [04:43]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
Do you think it's appropriate?
- [04:44]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
That's how they count the votes.
- [04:46]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
Do you think it's appropriate that they have an election and five days later, they're nowhere close to picking?
- [04:52]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
Local officials acknowledge they are slow. They're urging.
- [04:55]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
No, they're Crooked.
- [04:55]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
They're urging the votes to be counted quick. That's how they crooked.
- [04:59]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
Just like you're crooked. Your press is crooked and Meet the Press is crooked.
- [05:02]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
To be fair, I'm not crooked.
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Donald Trump (audio clip)
But really, when you play right into their hands.
- [05:06]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
Let's continue.
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Donald Trump (audio clip)
You're either crooked or you're stupid. You play right into their hands with this wrap. You know that these elections are rigged. Your network knows that they're rigged. You know that I won an election in a landslide And I got 94% bad press. But Mr. President, you know why I got that? Because you have no credibility.
- [05:27]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
But you've never presented evidence that it was rigged. Let's keep talking about. I want to talk about. Todd.
- [05:30]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
You have more evidence. There's more evidence than ever presented. Let's talk your elections in this country, we're like a third world country. Your elections are crooked and you're crooked and Meet the Press is crooked and so is ABC and CBS and CNN. But Mr. President, your one sided crooked network. So let's call it quits because I've had enough. Thank you, darling. Have a good time.
- [05:53]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
Mr. President, let's please. I traveled all the way to Wisconsin. I've traveled. I know. I travel for an hour on and
- [06:02]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
off in the rain. And I've given you enough time. You ought to straighten out your press because you know what? A country can never be great with a dishonest.
- [06:10]
Kristen Welker (audio clip)
Listen, we travel all the way to
- [06:12]
Charlie Sykes
Wisconsin for the synergy and then he just leaves. He does leave. Okay, so Harry, before we get into the substance of that, can I just make one comment? You know, look, traveling all the way to Wisconsin is great, but you know, Wisconsin is not Kazakhstan. It's not that far. I don't know why she kept it. We've gone all the way to Wisconsin. I mean, like, really.
- [06:32]
Harry Litman
Okay, all right.
- [06:34]
Charlie Sykes
Good that you came to Wisconsin. I'm in Wisconsin. It's not that far.
- [06:37]
Harry Litman
Really.
- [06:38]
Charlie Sykes
It's that. So what do you make of that? I mean, you know, I actually think that Donald Trump and listening to this has really internalized the big lie. I think he actually believes it right now. And you can tell that he is. It feels like he's laying out the predicate for challenging future elections. Any election that Republicans don't do well in now is crooked. Your reaction to that display that we just saw?
- [07:04]
Harry Litman
Yeah. So first, on your point, there's no doubt. I live in California. They are counting the votes. There's not a scintilla of proof that any or even speculation that anything is Dishonest. And indeed, as Kristen said, you've got a Republican candidate who did quite well in the gubernatorial election and is likely going into the runoff. So the reflexive appeal to that today in California, I think makes it abundantly clear that it's the playbook. There's no election for which he can't say it. Republicans are doing even well. It's still crooked and rigged. It takes more than a day to have results. It's crooked and rigged. The later votes, as they often do, come in for Democrats because of the way things are voted. It's crooked and rigged. But more than. So, first of all, you know, I again want to say this is of course the current playbook, the reflexive rhetoric. But more than that. Yeah, it struck me, I took your point that the ferrets are whatever the teeth are getting deeper into the brain matter. He really looked to me like on the edge of a stroke. And you know, he was getting so worked up. And then I'll just finally say so much to talk about here, but, you know, this is a little bit the sort of cousin of the taco idea. When he's challenged, he literally takes his ball and goes home. He can't. He's such a sort of 8 year old spoiled boy by now you would think he would have the wherewithal. And what he does is try to interrupt, interrupt. But at that point when you're in that interview and you storm out and you are the President of the United States, it's clear you're the one who looks weak, the thing that he tries always to avoid. So for all those reasons, I thought it was a very telling exchange. Even better, sort of, you know, in the flesh, as it were.
- [09:16]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and also, you know, she was asking him for evidence. Well, you have any evidence for that? And he doesn't have any evidence and is insulted to be asked for evidence. And it's interesting, there's that moment when he sort of the, the anger breaks loose or the ferret does whatever, where he goes, you know, and you are crooked. And he makes this personal on her, which of course works with his base. We've seen it before.
- [09:38]
Harry Litman
You're either calling or you're stupid. You know, what?
- [09:43]
Charlie Sykes
Binary world.
- [09:45]
Harry Litman
Yeah, well, yes, you know, but what a, what a, what a flaming jerk is the President of the United States. You know, stunning, really.
- [09:53]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, and also, I mean, we've talked about this before, but he has a very particular problem with women who I think challenge him. But I thought it was interesting and this is like a slight Digression that when he's talking about corrupt media throws in cbs. I mean, after all that David Ellison and Barry Weiss have done for him, he's still throwing in cbs. But, you know, as I read through the transcript of all of this, what's very clear is that, again, that he fully believes that all of these elections are. And by the way, I just parenthetically need to point out that, okay, so there's no evidence of fraud in California. But, you know, you folks in California, you gotta fix this election system. I mean, it is profoundly stupid. I mean, the fact that we are having this conversation a week after the election. Election. And don't know who. I mean, come on. It's like.
- [10:43]
Harry Litman
I'll put in a call, Charlie. But here's my take on California. Generally, the stereotypes are accurate, including these, including the royal politics. On the other hand, I'm going to be swimming outside in a couple hours beneath the blue sky. You take the good with the bad, but there's no defense. It's true. That's. That's the way we roll here in the. On the West Coast.
- [11:05]
Charlie Sykes
Well, okay, just. I just want to say that you can go outside and swim in Wisconsin if Kristen Welker ever wants to come all the way back here. Okay. But actually, the more disturbing part of all of this was when she was pressing him on the weaponization fund, the $1.8 billion slush fund. And it's very clear that he has internalized all of the conspiracy theories about January 6th. Talking about dirty cops, crooked cops, the FBI ushering people in, what victims these great patriots were who insidified the Capitol trying to overturn the election. It seemed to me that anyone listening to that real. That one way or another, he intends to either revive that. That weaponization fund or find some other workaround to give cash, even to the people who attack the cops. What was your reaction to that?
- [11:55]
Harry Litman
Ditto. And this is really important for the administration's now legal position, which is Todd Blanche made a couple statements in Congress. Therefore, the fund is finished, extinguished, buried, and there nobody can even challenge it legally. It's what the lawyers call a moot point. But this is the guy. You know, we had from the start that this whole thing was collusive. Trump and the DOJ on the same side. The lawyers will tell you, and I guess I'm one of them, that that makes it not a real case. But we know Todd Blanche is Mr. Literally. I love you, Mr. President. I do what you say. So when you have certain statements on the record, by Todd Blanche. Pretty damn very far from cut and dried. Right? You know, and wouldn't even put him in writing. And then the President of the United States, who we've been shown again and again, controls Todd Blanche. Todd Blanche does what he wants to do. If he's to say this, I want the fund revived. I think Todd Blanche's view of the legal status is it's revived. And one other point, he's the other side of a supposed. It's bogus, we know, but it's a supposed agreement. When it. When you make an agreement with the DOJ or buy a car from someone, they can't just say, oh, it's off. Now, you're the guy who would say, I want it on. I made this deal. In other words, it really undercuts the department's position that they're going to be trying to take to shuck and jive in court and prevent having to address the legal problems in saying the fund is off. What the hell does that mean? When the president, who controls both sides and the whole thing anyway, says, I want it to be on, Is there anything preventing him from Telling Todd Blanche 10 minutes from now, it's back on, please. And Todd Blanche is duty, as Todd Bland sees it, would be to say, thank you very much, Mr. President, it's back. So courts are going to say, I don't have enough assurance that this is dead, even though you're telling me this in a court brief. Let's hear from the other side. Supposedly Donald Trump, or let's figure out what to do, given that this beast, at a minimum, like a vampire or a zombie, could come back to life whenever the stable genius that we just saw stock out on Kristen Welker decides to.
- [14:35]
Charlie Sykes
So I agree with you. I mean, I think it's incredibly naive to think that last week we saw this buried. I mean, number one, Todd Blanche would not put it in writing. Tell. Very disappointing that Republican senators, who know how corrupt this is, had an opportunity to drive a stake through its heart and refused to do it. I think they're going to regret that. But this is the big question. This is the big question. You know, what role will the courts play in all of this? How is this playing out? It's in two different. Two different courtrooms. And also address the other part, which in some ways is even worse, is the IRS immunity for Donald Trump, for himself, for his family and. And his entities. So what will the courts do? Can they stop it? What happens next?
- [15:22]
Harry Litman
Wow. I hope you have a few minutes. And I really have been thinking about this a lot, and I'd like at some point to go back. I also, the Republicans did have a chance, and all it would have done is follow through with what they've already done. And even the people who Trump has recently basically decapitated, we're still with him. Okay, here's, I think this is a sort of two part, kind of one, two punch chart that it has to be because they're going to try to say, oh, the courts can't do anything, but I think courts can. But what they will do will essentially be to sort of jumpstart and give real momentum to the political pushback. All right, two courts. There's really four, but there are three, and two haven't happened anywhere. Leonie Brincoma, they said that's a court in Virginia. And they came in last Friday and said, oh, it's all moot, nothing to be done. Dismiss the case. I think what she says, and I know her, so I actually vetted her way in the day. I think she says, wait a second, I need. This isn't enough. We had a formal agreement and then voluntary dismissal on the record. And now you're telling me the attorney general has sort of said informally, not in writing, that it's off. That will not do. If your argument, Department of Justice is the whole thing has been dead and buried. And that's what we need. If you want me to now say it's over. So guess what? First and foremost, I want to hear from the other party. Supposedly he's the guy who has the benefit of the bargain. Mr. Trump, are you renouncing it? And formally and in perpetuity. Otherwise it's still around. You could always say, these are my rights. In addition, you could always say, I'm the president. Todd, you jump and Todd says, how high? So I think her play will be to make them substantiate their case that in fact the whole thing has been buried and gone and right now they don't have it. And what it would require is the thing that they always do everything possible to avoid, namely getting Trump actually on the record and explain why this is dead. So I think she, she has a standing claim there that's, that's somewhat tenuous. But she doesn't get there, I think, until she forces them to really go forward. And then second and more importantly, remember you a Judge Williams down in Florida, and she's the one that they basically hoodwinked. She's the one that they came in and said it's been voluntarily dismissed. The whole thing is gone. And now we're doing this settlement agreement. 35 former judges came in to her and said, you've been defrauded, your honor, and you can reopen this case under the federal rules, which she can. And she has done it Friday, Charlie the 12th. She has ordered Trump and the DOJ, unless they choose not to, to file their brief. So what are you talking about? I want answers to these questions. And they're going to try again to say, you don't need to answer that because it's in the past. But this is a critical distinction that Williams is going, I think, to really fasten onto. I don't give a crap. She won't say that way. I don't think about what, what you're saying going forward. I'm concerned that you defrauded me back last month. I have a right to hear about that. I have rules that I can sanction you, the lawyers in doj, Donald Trump's lawyers, and we're getting to the bottom of that whether or not you want to not go forward with that settlement. And that means, I think, Charlie, that she's going to decide and has the right to decide. Was this a fraud in the first place? And now back to your what is to be done, including the, I agree, really more notorious IRS amnesty worth conservatively $100 million of taxpayer money to Trump. If she says this whole thing was a fraud, then they can no longer rely, at least legally, that, you know, they could try to brazen it out. But there's no settlement agreement to try to tether it to. When Todd Bland says, oh, we do this all the time, what he means is when we settle bona fide cases, if, though, if a judge has said that's out the window, then that means what is it? It's just a freestanding $100 million bounty from the attorney general to talk to Donald Trump. And that means I'll now go back to what I meant by the one, two, punch. These Republicans who, you're right, were already there protesting, now they have a court opinion to rely on saying he defrauded them. And what they are trying to do legally is just give them all this money, we appropriate money and you don't even have an argument that there's anything from us. I think that puts steel in the spine or that has to be our hope of these Republicans who have, you're right, weenied out over the last few days. So excuse my long windedness, but I think it's a two part politics and law kind of attack.
- [21:07]
Charlie Sykes
Well, let's talk about this IRS deal because I do think that this is one of the most corrupt bargains that we've ever seen in American history. So one of the questions that I have seen people raise is, so if the Justice Department cuts this deal, let, let's, let's take the worst case scenario that the judge does not invalidate it, so it's there. Is that binding on future administrations, future IRS is, future departments of justices?
- [21:37]
Harry Litman
The short answer is no for the same reason. Even if she doesn't hold it, if you reach something fraudulently, it's voidable, period. That's to buy, that's a contract to buy shoes.
- [21:49]
Charlie Sykes
But what if she does?
- [21:51]
Harry Litman
It's 2029 and a new attorney general looks at it and says, this is fraud. We don't have to listen to it. We're about to go audit. Now at that point, Trump has, has, goes into conniptions and they'll have to defend it in court. But explain. So at that point, they'll literally be litigating, here's why it was fraud. From a practical point of view, it'll just be an extra layer that the department will already be wrestling with in terms of do we want to take on this kind of fight? But the hornbook law, and it's clear, is if this was the product of fraud or collusion and what else can it be? How the hell else could Todd Blanche even say we're not doing it? When it's a two party agreement, it is. You don't have to follow it. So they could, they could do the Trump way of just starting to audit and let Trump try to fight, or they could go to court and say we're doing these things. It's so, you know, they'd have to fight then. But the fact that they reached it here and Williams, for whatever reason doesn't make the fraud finding, doesn't tie their hands. And 2029 say so let's stick with Blanche.
- [23:10]
Charlie Sykes
I want to get to that amazing Statue of Liberty case that we heard last week because I'm really fascinated by that argument. But Donald Trump chose last week to nominate his acting attorney general as permanent Attorney General. Now, I suppose on one level you could say, well, it's because Todd Blanche has proven his willingness to do absolutely anything for Donald Trump, as you pointed out. I love you, Mr. President. I will indict James Comey for seashells. I will come up with this corrupt bargain. I will do anything for him. But the timing of it did strike me as interesting that in the middle of this firestorm, in the middle of Senators clearly upset at some level with what's going on, that's the moment that Donald Trump basically said to the Senate, I'm going to make you vote up or down on my Attorney General nominee. So your thoughts about not just why Todd Blanche, but also why now? Because let me just say what I'm getting at. It felt like kind of a big middle finger to the Republicans in the Senate. You know, you may push back against me, but I'm gonna. This is what I'm gonna ram down your throat, you know, challenging them. Are you gonna buck me on this one or are you gonna eat this shit sandwich? Exactly.
- [24:24]
Harry Litman
And it does seem to me back to the guy having a stroke in front of Welker. His strategy of late seems to be to just. I like the way Josh Marshall at Talking Points Memo put it. We're just down to the uncut cocaine of maga. He's willing to just totally stick it to the Senate. You could say, look, I don't think of him as thinking very strategically, but you could say he wants to elevate Blanche's stature because he knows that Blanche is the guy who's going to have to defend things. I agree with you. Look, the conventional wisdom in Washington is generally you do not nominate an acting person because they have to answer. And the Senate can excavate everything they've done in office. Todd Blanche is like that times 100. Because we now know from Pam Bondi and others that from the time he got there in early March of last year, his fingerprints are. Are on everything. And if I could just start Epstein to the punch. Right, but Epstein, what's so bad about partying with Mr. Epstein? As bland said, he must answer for everything. Now it's happened. Something like this happened to Bill Barr under George H.W. bush, but basically, you don't do it. These are going to be like. And the Democrats so frequently box stout in the context of a confirmation, can really ask and go after him for anything. And you already have some Republicans making. He did not have a good sort of early time. One thing that's a little odd, he announced, I'm going to nominate him, but he hasn't done it yet. I'm not saying he won't, but there is. I'll bet he's hearing from a lot of people on. On Capitol Hill, Republicans saying, why do you want to saddle us now? Coming up to the midterms, why do I have to cast a vote saying, oh, it's fine what he did with the fund, it's fine what he did with Comey, it's fine what he's doing with the IRS tax amnesty, and then two weeks later face a wrathful crowd in the midterms. And that's what he has consigned them to. And so I think there's just speaking objectively, I think he's a very, very dangerous, corrupt attorney general and largely because he knows better having been in ausa. But my just objectively speaking, this is going to be a troubled nomination. And as you know as well as I, once you're in that context and there's sort of blood on the floor, a lot of crap can happen.
- [27:19]
Charlie Sykes
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- [28:24]
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- [29:37]
Charlie Sykes
So this is really interesting. You know, when I did your podcast on Friday, we had Glenn Thrush, who's been writing about Donald Trump for more than a decade now. And he made an interesting observation that the old Donald Trump was the guy that heard the music, he understood the music. He had, he had that what I would have described as that reptilian sense for politics, whatever you think about him. And yet this year he has done one tone deaf thing after another. When affordability is a big issue, what does he do? He starts a war that spikes the price of gas. Almost everything that's happened to Donald Trump has been self inflicted. But going back to this, nominating, formally nominating Todd Blanche right now is the one thing that can revive the Epstein files, which has been, we've been distracted from. It's like what would it take to put the Epstein files and the COVID up and the sweet deal with Ghislaine Maxwell? What would it take to bring that back to center stage? It would be right. The Todd Blanche confirmation hearings, which Donald Trump now wants the Senate to have, which is like, have you really thought this through? Are you really playing the three dimensional chess?
- [30:54]
Harry Litman
It has happened. You're so right. And what about Mr. Blanche, the two and a half million pages you haven't produced and Ghislaine Maxwell? You're so right. There we have, you know, it's kind of slipped into the whole mix of stuff, but from the point of view of a would be attorney general, he went down there with, not he on his own. He was running the show. And Bondi read about it in the newspapers and sweet talked her and then gave her an inappropriate perk. Somebody who had the charges she had couldn't go to this more cushy federal prison. He did it anyway. And it's just manifestly something done only for Trump's personal interests and to the exclusion of the people's interest. I agree. All that gets executed, excavated. And just a really quick point, again, I'm no expert on Trump's psyche, but it does feel to me that back, you know, in, in certainly in 2015 when he was taking them down one by one and we were really finding, being introduced to the absolute jerk Donald Trump, there was a little bit of, there was a sense of like joy or fun or jocularity to him that I think connected with people. And now again, Kristen Welker, it's the red in the face enraged. You know, even if you're hardcore maga, do you. Do you, you know, really think, oh, I want a guy like this as president? I don't know, maybe. But if you do, there aren't many others who know. So, yeah, I think something's been really kind of. Kind of debased about an already pretty base fellow.
- [32:40]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and he's probably already now realizing that he just cannot scrape this war that he created off of his shoes, that he's being outmaneuvered by Iran and Israel. You can just sense that frustration that Donald Trump has that infinite confidence in his own ability to warp reality into his own image, and he's finding out that, you know, on this one, it's not working. And so there is that frustration. Okay, so I want to talk about this, which I actually thought was a really, really fascinating moment. There is. It was a court hearing, and this is in front of the Appeals Court, the D.C. appellate court, about blocking the, you know, further work on the ballroom. And, of course, what's interesting about that is that Donald Trump thinks he has a fait accompli. Right. That if you move, you know, fast, you break things, you bulldoze the East Wing, that nothing can stop you. The momentum becomes the law. You don't need Congress, you don't need the opposition.
- [33:39]
Harry Litman
Wow, was that a fantastic Charlie Sykes phrase. The momentum becomes the. I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [33:47]
Charlie Sykes
Well, that's kind of what they're saying, right, Is that we do something. Now, let's talk about the moment where the judge presents the Department of Justice with the hypothetical. And I'll let you do it, because I know you're writing about this now.
- [34:01]
Harry Litman
It's true. Page 15 of the transcript jumped out at me. Patti Millette, very solid judge, a Democratic appointee asked him. Okay, here's my hypo to you, Yaakov Roth, who is their version of an A team. He's credentialed, corked on the Supreme Court, etc. Could you just bulldoze the Statue of Liberty? And nobody in America, all of whom who came and saw that for the first vision of America, all means them, nobody could do anything at all about it. Roth. That's right, your honor. And that's not a stumble. This guy smart enough to have thought it through with a very good judge, very high court, and if he surrendered on it, then the case would have collapsed with him. So she saw and he had to acquiesce. Yeah, that's what we're saying. So then, says the judge, basically, your position is break things. Do it. Just, just the way Judge Sykes just put it. Break things. And then it's a fetacom plea and he essentially agreed. And, and what he means, nobody can do anything about it is nobody has standing as, as important a action that would be for the, the people. Too friggin bad. Nobody can stop it. That is our position. So, you know, I thought it was a kind of an incandescent moment. Okay, here you have it. This is, you know, this is how it's gonna be.
- [35:36]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you know, it reminded me of that hypothetical that the same court asked during the immunity discussion. So are you saying that if the President orders Seal Team 6 to murder a political opponent, that the President should be immune? And we got the hum and a humming a hummin. We know how the Supreme Court eventually ruled on that. But what I thought it was. So the Trump administration, its official position is that it could bulldoze the Statue of Liberty and that no one could do anything about it.
- [36:11]
Harry Litman
And I really want to insist on that second part. By the way, Patti Millette is an Obama appointee and. But it's the second part. It's not, oh, it's totally legal. It's not that, you know, we're not trenching on Congress's weeding in their garden. It's that nobody can do anything about it. Too bad. That's the position. And you combine that with the politics in the fund in, in the, in the ballroom, in so, so much that we're doing it because we feel like it and it's deeply unpopular and the people are being injured, but nobody can do anything about it.
- [36:48]
Charlie Sykes
I don't know if you're a fan of the. I think it was originally the Netflix version of man in the High Castle where the Germans win the war. It's that alternative history. And one of the more dramatic episodes, I think, in season four, I'm not exactly sure, is when the new government decides that they're gonna have Yarnull Year one, they're gonna start American history over again. And in order to inaugurate that, they blow up the Statue of Liberty. I mean, they blow it up, which, I mean, it's a pretty dramatic moment. And of course, you know, the Statue of Liberty, the destruction of the Statue of Liberty also was. How about this for a deep dive? Planet of the Apes. Remember Charlton Heston in Planet of the Apes?
- [37:30]
Donald Trump (audio clip)
Kill them.
- [37:31]
Harry Litman
Kill them.
- [37:33]
Charlie Sykes
That's right. Yeah. So there's a certain, there is a certain symbolism behind this, but also, I think it's just the arrogance Now, I want to call my shot here, because they're not ever gonna knock down the Statue of Liberty. That's not gonna happen. Okay? I'm willing to stipulate that. But when people wake up and realize that you have dynamiting and drilling going on at Mount Rushmore, to add Donald Trump's face, I want you to know that. Just remember, you heard it here first. And then if he tried basically to put his face on Mount Rushmore, their position is that nobody could stop them. Right? Isn't.
- [38:09]
Harry Litman
Isn't that what they're saying 100%, that they could. That they could do it? It's a good kind of bookend with. With how we began talking about the Welker interview, because it is. It's just. It's. It's him with his obsession of rewriting history. I'm going to do you one better, and this is. I'm going out on a limb here, but even though they have what seems like a legally stitched up approach to the ballroom, I believe, and I'm really in the minority here, but that we will. It will not be the case in three years that we have this grotesque, really Trumpian structure in the White House. A lot of people disagree. They see an unimpeded legal path. But I think the politics, plus the law, that's my sense. I may be smoking hopium, as they say, but it's. But here I am. You heard it here first.
- [39:04]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you know, going back to the, you know, Trump unhinged or going for the, you know, purest cocaine or. I've described it as, you know, third wave Trumpism, you would think that the President would have some due regard for the optics, especially when this is working its way through public opinion and the courts. The pictures that we've seen over the last couple of weeks of what the White House looks like with the. The East Wing being a hole in the ground and that giant steel octagon that they've erected on the South Lawn for his UFC fight, it's sort of like, okay, so this is what the, you know, the unlimited power of the President can do to the people's house. I mean, judges see those pictures, the public is seeing those pictures, and it is ugly as shit. I mean, that's part of the problem, right? The people can disagree about gold, you know, you know, gold gilding and stuff
- [40:02]
Harry Litman
like that, but the moralization of the White House, it's hideous. But I'll go back to your point about it's not so hard to get to Wisconsin, probably You, I did as a seventh grader, get in the yellow bus, go to Washington and see this really kind of harmonious neoclassical fits in so well with the Capitol and the Supreme Court. And he just wants to blow it all to shit and make it sort of an imperial, like Stalinist monument to him. That's what I'm thinking. That judges will see that feel that, and Republicans will see that feel that. And it's already a big mess. They are gambling on like, well, now it's a big mess. We have to do this for security, but they don't have to do the 90,000 foot for security.
- [40:52]
Charlie Sykes
Well, this is sort of like, you know, people who are rolling their eyes about my Mount Rushmore thing. It's like, can you imagine an alternative reality? Okay, imagine if Trump can do, you know, X, Y and Z, he could also erect a giant steel octagon for, you know, ultimate fighting contests on the White House law. That would never happen. And yet here we are. This is the reality. This is his birthday present to himself. I don't know whether you saw that. Somebody filed a lawsuit to block that. I assume that's kind of a Hail Mary. It's. Should we take it seriously or. I mean, that. That thing's going to go ahead, right? I mean, he.
- [41:29]
Harry Litman
I think so. And it's temporary so that, you know, the. But there's, there's longstanding, unavoidable repercussions if they're handing out money to insurrectionists, if he gets a hundred million dollar plus pass on taxes, and God knows if he builds this Mar a Lago monstrosity at the people's house.
- [41:53]
Charlie Sykes
So speaking of revisions of history, this wasn't on our agenda, but Pete Hegseth goes to the D Day ceremony in France. This is the ceremony where Ronald Reagan had given that incredibly memorable speech about, you know, the boys that climb the cliffs. Pete Hegseth goes there and gives this embarrassing attack on our European allies and NATO and find some way to equate the landing on the beach to overthrow Adolf Hitler. Landing on the beach on D Day with the landing on the beach of these terrible migrants who are destroying Europe. And no one thought, you know, Mr. Secretary, like for one day, can you be decent and gracious one day, can you actually not make this about your own, you know, anti woke agenda? And Pete Hegseth couldn't do it. I mean, what was your thought about that? It was just so, so inappropriate. And all of Europe and the rest of the world is going, what is with this Chode? Why would you do this sacred ceremony on sacred ground and turn it into one of your ideological, particularly stupid ideological rants.
- [43:09]
Harry Litman
It's grotesque and embarrassing. But it's more than that, Charlie. Their whole foreign policy is just remaking a world in which the United States is weaker, crapping all over their colleagues or their partners in the world. We've proven since World War II that America can be, you know, on top and be a force for good and self interest in the world if we have our kind of moral authority that they are just. Can I say this? You know, pissing away every day. I was at this weekend at the here they christened a new boat ship for Thurgood Marshall, whom I clerked for. And it was in San Diego. It was a beautiful ceremony and all this sort of Navy people talking about Marshall's legacy and the like. And it turned out Hegseth wasn't crazy about that. Unfortunately, there's a superstition in the Navy that says once you've put a name on a ship, you can't change it. But the striking difference between, you know, and the military really was a very, in many ways, progressive force, a kind of model of diversity and efficiency, etc. And just in so many, yeah, he's a, you know, complete first class frat boy jerk, but he's far worse than that. And of course, what does your really think when they hear that? The first thing they think is what a creep is Donald Trump. They just lump them together and think, you know, what the hell happened to. To the world? We are alone now. Maybe China has something to tell us because God knows the United States of America cannot be dependent on the consequences of that kind of braggadocio and nasty boastfulness. They just seemingly don't even contemplate or fathom. These are, these are, this is damage to our national interest that's gonna be take a generation to undo. Thank you very much, Secretary of War Hagseth and President Donald Trump.
- [45:26]
Charlie Sykes
It's not just the lack of respect for history, the lack of knowledge of history. You kind of wonder what he actually knows. But as we see with him and with Trump, this willingness and eagerness to rewrite history, you know, we're talking about January 6th, but also it was interesting that during that Christian welcome, which you keep coming back to, you know, he was saying, you know, I never said that I didn't want to start, you know, endless wars. Right? I never said that. And you know, NBC has compiled this fact check all the times that Trump said something, but Trump actually wants you to believe sort of like that Jedi mind trick. I never said those things. I, you know, let me rewrite the entire history of everything I've ever said about this and pretend it didn't happen. And I guess for much of the MAGA base that's going to be okay. But it is just extraordinary their desire to rewrite and twist history into their own image and you know, unfortunately the success. Which is why this Mount Rushmore thing, I'm just, I'm just saying put it in your back pocket.
- [46:25]
Harry Litman
You heard it here.
- [46:26]
Charlie Sykes
I'm just, I'm saying.
- [46:27]
Harry Litman
But I mean, isn't it. And again, it's not just his narcissism and megalomania. Think about it. History, what we all saw happen January 6th, it belongs to us. The specific accountability to the actual responsible parties has been taken off the table. Could they he. And he seems earnest about trying to literally the history that is ours and the lessons to take from it. As if he says it enough that it will actually. They'll actually believe. You know, like you aliens in outer space. Oh that never. It was a loving. He said it just in the last week and you know, with patriots, et cetera. What an or, you know, George Orwell. I just keep coming back to right. And as the kind of philosopher for our current woes. What an unbelievably pernicious and indefatigable on his part ambition, I think.
- [47:29]
Charlie Sykes
And we get to watch it in real time. We get to watch it actually happen. Harry Litman, thank you so much.
- [47:34]
Harry Litman
I'm glad to watch it. Be able to watch it with you, Charlie. Sy, one day it's not so, so hard to come to Wisconsin. I hear the, the beer portage and whatever in the summer is really beautiful.
- [47:46]
Charlie Sykes
So it's, it's really like only an hour and a half plane ride from Washington. It's like we came all the way to Wisconsin. And again, it's not. Don't confuse us with, I don't know, Azerbaijan or something like that. You can find all of Harry Stup over at Talking Feds Substack and Talking Feds Podcast. I'm Charlie Saik. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of to the Contrary. You know why we do this, especially today. Well, actually, I say especially today, but I feel like we need to say it every single day. We are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [48:32]
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- [49:43]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, Caller one wins courtside seats to tonight's game.
- [49:48]
Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
What? I won floor seats.
- [49:49]
Harry Litman
You did?
- [49:50]
Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
I've been calling for 13 months.
- [49:52]
Charlie Sykes
Wait, Chris.
- [49:53]
Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
Yes, I final.
- [49:55]
Charlie Sykes
What are you going to wear?
- [49:55]
Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
Men's Warehouse. They've got today's looks for any occasion. And I need to look like a celebrity.
- [50:00]
Charlie Sykes
Don't want to stick out.
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Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
Exactly. They've got Chill Flex by Kenneth Cole, Joseph Abood, and a tailor at every store for the perfect fit.
- [50:06]
Charlie Sykes
Congrats. You can stop calling now.
- [50:08]
Caller / Men's Warehouse Advertiser
Not a chance.
- [50:09]
Charlie Sykes
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