To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Tom Nichols: Into Darkness
Date: September 16, 2025
Guests: Tom Nichols
Host: Charlie Sykes
Episode Overview
This episode of "To The Contrary" features a sobering discussion between host Charlie Sykes and guest Tom Nichols about the disturbing direction of American politics, particularly on the right. Against the backdrop of the recent assassination of Charlie Kirk and the subsequent political weaponization of the tragedy, they delve into fascist rhetoric, the erosion of democratic norms, the escalating demonization of political opponents, the fragility of America's "democratic immune system," and the normalization of violence and authoritarian tendencies. The episode covers current events' implications for democracy, the nature of propaganda and collective guilt, and the broader international context—including U.S. foreign policy actions and reactions to authoritarianism worldwide.
Key Discussion Topics & Insights
1. The Weaponization of Charlie Kirk's Assassination
- [01:41] Sykes opens, referencing "the darkness" and asks Nichols to comment on the right's openly authoritarian reaction to Charlie Kirk's death.
- The assassination is being spun as an excuse to suppress political dissent, with Trump and his allies using it to justify actions against perceived enemies.
"Political violence is never acceptable, but political violence should not be a pretext to suppress political speech... The Trump folks are not making any secret...that they want to weaponize this as a way of quashing dissent."
— Charlie Sykes [02:50]
Weaponizing Rhetoric and Asymmetry
- The right accuses the left of terrible language ("calling us Nazis"), but simultaneously calls the left "terrorists," "communists," and "evil."
"There's an immense...asymmetry...It's dangerous to call people fascists and communists and Nazis and vermin and human scum. But apparently...the people on the right only think it's dangerous when Trump does it."
— Tom Nichols [04:45]
2. Demonization and Gaslighting
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[04:45] Nichols describes the hypocrisy and danger in both the left and right using extreme labels, but highlights the right's particular use of dehumanizing language.
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Trump’s and Stephen Miller's descriptions of Democrats as a "domestic extremist organization" are outlined as direct threats to democratic norms.
"If the Democrats are not a political party, then you do not compromise with them…And, of course, this is the linchpin of authoritarianism."
— Charlie Sykes [10:14] -
Sykes and Nichols outline how the language directly mirrors historical fascist movements and tactics.
3. Authoritarian Ambitions and the Mainstreaming of Extremism
- [12:38] Nichols defines current MAGA policies as "classic authoritarianism, verging into fascism," including targeting NGOs, suppressing the media, and silencing opposition.
"What Miller and others want to do is classic authoritarianism. And yes, verging into fascism. Shut down all modes of communication that are not state approved, orient everything around the leader..."
— Tom Nichols [12:38] - Sykes points out the real consequences, including lawfare, intimidation, and escalating attempts to criminalize the opposition.
- Discussion of how intimidation is ramping up against the media and legal opposition through lawsuits and threats.
"The level of intimidation through...civil law, through the use of government power is ratcheting up."
— Charlie Sykes [14:32]
4. Political Violence as a Pretext
- [16:18] Nichols highlights "collective guilt" propaganda: blaming all dissenters for isolated violent acts to stifle speech and create fear.
"The people on the right are trying to hold everybody...to a kind of collective guilt, which is meant to suppress people from speaking, from even talking to their neighbors about this kind of stuff. And that's really dangerous."
— Tom Nichols [16:18]
5. America's Faltering "Democratic Immune System"
- Sykes and Nichols reflect on how the U.S. once withstood fascism and communism, thanks to democratic norms and elite consensus, but appears more vulnerable now.
"We don't have that immune system anymore. We're open to these opportunistic infections of the isms."
— Tom Nichols [21:19] - Sykes: "Maybe that immune system was a lot weaker all along than we thought it was." [23:17]
- Nichols: The collapse of elite consensus and centre-holding is what's new and dangerous [24:13].
6. The Brian Kilmeade Euthanasia Comment
- [27:58] Sykes references Fox News host Brian Kilmeade suggesting "involuntary euthanasia" for homeless people, with no significant blowback.
"It's pretty shocking...a host who's just talking about killing people because of their status...a guy who apologized, but he still has his job."
— Charlie Sykes [27:58] - Nichols: "Euthanizing...this is straight up fascism." [27:58]
"Not only did you get carried away, you got carried away in a studio of people who kind of shrugged...It normalizes it."
— Tom Nichols [29:37] - Double-standard: If voices on the left had said something similar, careers would be over [30:39].
7. Dangers of Live Breaking News, Misinformation, and the Search for Meaning
- Sykes reflects on the media's rush to judgments in real time, referencing the danger of hot takes during crises [30:45].
8. Extrajudicial Violence and U.S. Foreign Policy
- [33:14] Sykes raises concerns about a recent U.S. strike on a Venezuelan boat, questioning rules of engagement and legal standards.
- Nichols critiques the fraying distinction between legitimate anti-terror actions and summary execution.
"You cannot, by any interpretation of American or international law, go out on the high seas, hunt for drug dealers, and summarily execute them."
— Tom Nichols [34:49] - Sykes and Nichols: There’s little accountability internationally for these acts, echoing the disregard for law seen among authoritarians [36:45].
- Nichols: "International law works best where it's needed the least." [37:14]
9. Putin, Trump, and NATO—Signals of International Weakness
- [41:06] Sykes and Nichols discuss Putin's escalating provocations against Poland and Romania, and what it signals about U.S. credibility.
"There's a message behind these kinds of tests...we can reach out and touch you and the Americans will not help you."
— Tom Nichols [41:24] - Nichols: The world no longer takes Trump or MAGA leadership seriously; allies "manage up" to Trump, knowing he is easily manipulated [43:03].
10. The Epstein Files and "Distraction" Tactics
- [44:52] Sykes and Nichols discuss the political timeline and energy devoted to deflecting from the Epstein files, questioning what could possibly be so damaging to Trump or others.
"He is acting like there’s something so bad in there that he has to go to the wall."
— Tom Nichols [50:00] - Notably, all political camps support "release the files," but the asymmetrical risk for Trump vs. Clinton remains.
11. Concluding Reflections: Not the Crazy Ones
- Sykes ends with an affirmation as to why the podcast matters:
"Now more than ever, it is absolutely essential that we remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones."
— Charlie Sykes [53:28]
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
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On Weaponization of Violence:
"The Trump folks are not making any secret...they want to weaponize this as a way of quashing dissent." — Charlie Sykes [02:50] -
On Language Asymmetry:
"The only two people...who have really called Donald Trump Hitler are J.D. Vance and RFK Jr." — Tom Nichols [04:45] -
On Fascism:
"If that's not fascist, I don't know what is fascist...Stephen Miller is a fascist down to the last follicle on his head." — Charlie Sykes [11:54] -
On Authoritarian Intent:
"This is, you know, basically the power of the government is going to extend into every corner of American life and find anyone who has said anything bad about the great leader and extinguish their right to free speech." — Tom Nichols [13:28] -
On Media and Normalization:
"A host who's just talking about killing people because of their status... the other hosts don't even blink an eye." — Charlie Sykes [27:58] -
On Fascist Rhetoric on TV:
"Euthanizing... this is straight up fascism." — Tom Nichols [28:27] -
On Democratic Fragility:
"We don't have that immune system anymore. We're open to these opportunistic infections of the isms." — Tom Nichols [21:19] -
On International Law:
"International law works best where it's needed the least." — Tom Nichols [37:14] -
On Global Perception of Trump:
"I think even at the end of his first term, most international leaders had taken Trump's measure and decided this is not a serious guy, not somebody you can really talk to, doesn't understand what the hell he's doing..." — Tom Nichols [43:03]
Timestamps for Key Segments
- [01:41] – Show begins, context for national mood and the right’s reaction to Kirk assassination
- [04:45] – Asymmetry of political rhetoric, dangers of labeling
- [12:38] – Definitions of fascism and authoritarian intentions of MAGA
- [16:18] – Propaganda, collective guilt, and suppression of dissent
- [21:19] – Fraying of American “democratic immune system”
- [27:58] – The Fox News euthanasia comment, normalization of dangerous speech
- [33:14] – U.S. strike on Venezuelan boat and erosion of legal/norm standards
- [41:06] – Putin’s provocations and American credibility
- [44:52] – Epstein files and the politics of distraction
- [53:28] – Affirmation that speaking up matters, "we are not the crazy ones"
Memorable Moments
- Nichols explicit on the acceleration and normalization of fascist tactics in right-wing politics.
- Sykes' use of a 1942 film (“Keeper of the Flame”) as a lens to recognize the perennial nature of fascism's threat [18:42].
- The candid discussion about why media mistakes and "hot takes" proliferate during live news [30:45].
- The analysis of Trump's obsessive attempts to bury the Epstein files, and bipartisan desire for their release [44:52].
Summary Tone & Style
The episode is frank, urgent, and dark, but grounded in the analytical and somewhat wry tones typical of Sykes and Nichols. The speakers combine personal reflection, history, and detailed political observation, often using dark humor as a coping mechanism for the troubling content.
In sum:
Sykes and Nichols urge listeners not to gaslight themselves in the face of increasingly fascistic language and tactics from the American right—emphasizing the necessity of clear-eyed, vocal dissent, and historic context to resist the "loop" of darkness overtaking the body politic.
For those concerned about the future of American democracy—and seeking clarity, context, and solidarity—this episode provides essential perspective.