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- [00:00]
Tom Nichols
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Charlie Sykes
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Tom Nichols
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Charlie Sykes
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- [01:47]
Paige DeSorbo
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I mean, damn, you wanted it to live in interesting times. Look at this. We have troops in the streets of Los Angeles. A big, beautiful military parade that will be taking over Washington, D.C. and shutting down the airport for the whole day. We have mass, no kings rallies all across the country, a hot war between Israel and Iran. Where do we begin? With my good friend Tom Nichols, staff writer for the Atlantic. How are you, first of all, Tom?
- [02:19]
Tom Nichols
Exhausted, Charlie. But I'm well, thank you for asking.
- [02:23]
Paige DeSorbo
Yeah, and we're recording this on Friday the 13th. You know, as if it couldn't be any better. Okay, so I want to actually start with the bottom, some of the bottom feeding stories of the day. Because, I mean, it's obvious. We could start with Israel or we could talk about, you know, la. I Want to talk about this? It feels like a blast from the past. It feels like something from Trump 1.0. Corey Lewandowski. Do you remember Corey Lewandowski, the guy.
- [02:46]
Tom Nichols
Who is my fellow Masshole?
- [02:50]
Paige DeSorbo
Oh, he is definitely. Oh, I mean, you want to talk about a guy that, he must have, like, 20 lives because he's been disgraced and fired and whatever, you know, one of, one of Trump's thugs from, like, the beginning. Right. But apparently he's still very, very tight with Christine Ohm. Apparently, you know, there were a lot of, there was a lot of talk that they were kind of whatever. He's apparently hanging around with her. Okay. The reason I'm bringing him up. Okay, so we had this incident where Senator Alex Padilla tries to ask a question of Kristi Noemi at a press conference in California, the state he represents in the United States Senate. He is manhandled, thrown to the ground, and handcuffed. It is a shock and it is an outrage. Now, of course, MAGA never apologizes for anything, and they're trying to defend it. And you have Mike Johnson, the deplorable speaker, saying that Padilla should be the one who should be censured. But I think one of the dazzling details of the story, Tom, is the one guy who knew how fucked up it was was Cory fucking Lewandowski. That it turns out that it was Corey. That while you have these FBI agents swarming over this United States senator and Padilla going, what's, what's happening? Why are you arresting me? It's Corey Lewandowski who runs down the hall and says, let him go. Let him go. Let him know. So you know, how fucked up it is when Corey fucking Lewandowski comes up and says, this is really fucked up. You know what I'm saying? Saying, Tom.
- [04:16]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, I know. I thought the same when I, I didn't, you know, I, I, I came in late on the Padilla gnome story because, you know, as you pointed out, there are a couple of things going on in the world, you know, war. But I, so I didn't catch the Lewandowski detail.
- [04:31]
Paige DeSorbo
Right.
- [04:32]
Tom Nichols
And then that was the first thing I thought. When you are too thuggish for Corey Lewandowski, you know, maybe you should reconsider your life choices, because that was just an incredible scene. I mean, it was just, it was shocking and appalling. And boy, when you can even, you know, when even Corey Lewandowski thinks, you know, maybe you should lay off, you know, the, the manhandling, that's, that's, I Think so, yeah.
- [05:01]
Paige DeSorbo
I mean, here's.
- [05:01]
Tom Nichols
Here's.
- [05:02]
Paige DeSorbo
The guy's got a long history of that. I mean, he knows whereof he speaks when he talks about manhandling. Okay, so, you know, in terms of, like, developing a BS meter for watching the defense and all of the spin on all this, I propose posed in my newsletter, a thought experiment. There are people saying, well, they had no idea who this large Hispanic man was who was trying to attack the Secretary of Homeland Security. He didn't identify himself. He didn't have the right pin on, as if nobody in the room would identify one of California's two United States senators. So here's the thought experiment. Imagine. Just try to imagine Ron Johnson in Wisconsin being wrestled to the ground and handcuffed. Try to imagine Ted Cruz being wrestled to the ground in Texas and handcuffed. Actually, I would rather. I'd like to sit on that one for a little while, but, I mean, you can't. Or Tommy Tuberville in Alabama, you know, trying to ask a question. I mean, can you just imagine? None of that is remotely conceivable, is it?
- [06:01]
Tom Nichols
No. And, you know, there's a couple of things to consider here. First of all, he wasn't just that. He's not just a senator. He was their secretary of state. I mean, it's not like he's new to California.
- [06:13]
Paige DeSorbo
People knew who he was.
- [06:14]
Tom Nichols
And let's just. Before we talk about how completely ridiculous this is, let's point something else out. Charlie, I don't care who he was if he was just a guy in the room. You still don't do that. I mean, it's worse that they manhandled the senator, but they shouldn't have treated anybody like that. You want to eject a heckler, then, you know, fine, take him out of the room. Although I don't think Padilla was heckling. I think he was being rude or boorish, but, you know, not. Not a heckler. But the other thing is that isn't Padilla like, on a committee that over, you know, like, has oversight here and, you know, she had to go through confirmation, so one of two things. Either she knew who he was and shouldn't say anything, or she's so bad at her job and so, you know, in over her head that she couldn't recognize one of the two senators from the biggest state in the union who she talked to?
- [07:11]
Paige DeSorbo
Well, it's always a mistake to overestimate Kristi Noem's intelligence, but, you know, a couple of things about a couple of people, you know, have pointed out, and I think this is relevant. It doesn't go to the heart of what they did there, but it is relevant that. That right before he tried to ask her a question, a United States senator trying to ask her a question, she's giving some rant about how she is there to liberate Los Angeles from the socialists. And whatever it was, I was like.
- [07:39]
Tom Nichols
That'S what set him up.
- [07:41]
Paige DeSorbo
Well, I mean, it was sort of like, we are here to take over the government and, like, like, it's a coup. And I guess maybe we just sort of pass over how extreme those comments were. But also, the I'm sorry, irony is dead. But the fact that she's accusing Padilla of engaging in political theater, this coming from Ice Barbie. I mean, Tom, really a woman who dresses up.
- [08:09]
Tom Nichols
And you're right, it let people skate past how both extreme and inane her comments were. And normally you would say, well, you know, how seriously can you ever take Kristi Noem? Well, unfortunately, she's the Department of Homeland Security cabinet secretary, so you have to take it seriously. And when somebody. She basically said, yes, in fact, we are an occupying, you know, like, basically played into the narrative of protesters. Yes, in fact, we are an occupying force. Yes, we are here to overthrow the local authorities and to, you know, rule as, you know, rule from the Death Star. And, you know, it's just an incredible thing to say. I mean, these are things that would have been instantly disqualifying that any president, if who had a cabinet secretary, went to California. So I'm here to liberate California from the socialists. The next thing would be, you know, that she would be leaving public life to spend more time with her family, and instead.
- [09:09]
Paige DeSorbo
Corey.
- [09:11]
Tom Nichols
Charlie. But, you know, instead she did it because she was speaking to an audience of one and to the stenographers at Fox, you know, she did it. And it's almost like they're. They're now just stringing together. You know that game where you just put magnets with words on your refrigerator? You know, liberate socialist California occupiers.
- [09:36]
Paige DeSorbo
I have that refrigerator.
- [09:38]
Tom Nichols
You know what I'm saying? It's. It's just. They do.
- [09:41]
Paige DeSorbo
It's Mad Libs, Maga.
- [09:42]
Tom Nichols
Mad Libs @ this point. But it's extremely dangerous to talk about the federal government. And by the way, you and I, old, old school, you know, back in the day, conservatives. When did conservatives become big fans of overwhelming federal power against states and localities? I mean, that. That seems to be a new wrinkle.
- [10:04]
Paige DeSorbo
When, when we, when we are the. Yeah, yeah, the, the Jack booted thugs. Remember when the NRA would say that we need to have guns because of these jack booted thugs in the federal government? And now it's like, well, no, those are wooded thugs. Okay, so bottom, bottom dwelling. Story of the. Oh no, two more things. You know, I always think that it's also helpful to talk about, you know, alternative ways that everything could have turned out. First of all, disrupting press conferences to make political points is not unknown in American politics. And there are a number of ways of handling it. I mean, I can think of a like a half a dozen incidents. Sometimes you actually say, okay, well you want to speak, you come up here, you, you talk. Or we had a couple of incidents here in Wisconsin where the, you know, the person who was being disrupted was very well prepared, was able to answer the questions, was able to handle it. That could have easily been done. I think David from, you know, mentioned that the other alternative is that after it was clear that it was United States Senate, they could have simply apologized and said this was a terrible misunderstanding. Senator, you know, we are sorry. Get an apology from dhs, get an apology from the FBI. Get it and get it. Just move, move past it. Of course, none of that happened. Which tells you really how, you know, what a weird world win. Okay, so another bottom dwelling apologizing, by.
- [11:17]
Tom Nichols
The way, apologizing would have been the power move. I mean, it shows you also how insecure and weak these people are that they're. We're not going to apologize. We're not going to, you know, to say, hey, don't worry, we're in charge. These people answer to me. Senator, I disagree, have my disagreements with you, but we apologize for the way you were treated. That would have been very much the kind of in charge, control, power move. And the other question I have before we leave this story is how many security guys from how many different agencies does one meeting need? I mean, there were like eight guys on, on. I haven't seen the tape since early this morning. But it's like, what, what kind of weird, you know, insecurity now is because it was a federal building. You couldn't, people couldn't just walk in off the street.
- [12:04]
Paige DeSorbo
Well, that's right. And Padilla has an office in that building and he says that he was escorted into that room by an FBI agent by National Guard. I mean, none of it adds up. You also would think you'd hope that there would be one senior security official who once they realized it was a senator would say to the other guys, okay, maybe we get him out of here, but we do not put him on the ground. We do not handcuff him anyway. Okay, so this whole thing is about illegal immigration, right? It's all about mass deportations, which Donald Trump is all in. Let me read you from Andrew Sullivan's letter this week, just this week, Donald Trump even praised the millions of illegal immigrants in the agriculture and hospitality sectors, the domestic industries, along with construction, most responsible for exploiting cheap illegal labor. So you want to talk about an epic flip flop? You want to talk about the mother of all tacos here? This is what Trump said. This is the anti immigration deport them all, he wrote. Our farmers are being hurt badly. They have very good workers that have worked for them for 20 years. They're not citizens, but they've turned out to be great. And we're going to have to do something about that. We can't take all their people and send them back. And leisure, too. And hotels. Oh, my, what's the squish now? Tom Nicholas.
- [13:20]
Tom Nichols
I was gonna say, I mean, wow, Donald Trump channeling Liz Warren there or something. But you know what that really means, Charlie? You and I both. I mean, some rich guy who owns hotels called him up and said, dude, you're supporting my workforce, man. You're cutting them up. I'm not what you think I'm going to find. Americans change bed sheets, you know, lay off. And so, of course, Trump, you know, people talk about this taco joke. The thing is, he doesn't back down to public opinion. It's. He always reverses course when somebody rich or powerful calls him and says, stop. Stop messing with my rice bowl. Yeah, that's when he decides to back up.
- [14:07]
Paige DeSorbo
I would have loved to have been in, you know, whatever bat cave Stephen Miller hangs out with when this truth social post came out. If this had come from anyone else, you know, that MAGA would have descended with all the flying monkeys on them. But, you know, once again, recognizing that, that even though, you know, Trump makes this his signature issue, that his principle is this thin, it's paper thin if you're watching on YouTube. So Andrew Sullivan asks a great question. What the f is this really all about? Like the tariffs that gyrate and the spending cuts that don't cut spending and the great deals that turn out to be surrendered to China and the end of wars that never end and the executive orders, the collapse of the First Judicial Review. So much of this is just theater. The real goal is to find illegal immigrants who can be associated with the left and the Democrats to gin up a conflict and to use it to smash and intimidate domestic opposition. Yes, that's what this is about. It's about state terror in the pursuit of ever greater executive power. And Tom Andrew is not wrong, is he?
- [15:12]
Tom Nichols
No. And it's ever greater executive power, not for some larger ideological project, I keep saying, you know. Yes. Stephen Miller, Russ Vow, there's a, there's a few fanatics, you know, in this administration, but by and large, it's extended power to keep your friends in power, keep looting the treasury, keep, you know, keep the grift and the corruption going. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's really just, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of an ongoing corruption spree. I mean, in a way, I suppose that's a relief that there are, that this isn't really about anything. But it also suggests that, and I've said this about Los Angeles. I, I think Los Angeles is not about Los Angeles. It's about, and my, my friend and my colleague David Frum has brought this up as well. It's, it's a dress rehearsal. It's, let's see how often I can put the military in the streets anytime I feel like it, because I might not want to leave off. I might not want my friends, you know, in the Senate to get voted out of office in two years. And, you know, I think we have to, we can't have a failure of imagination about how dangerous and how determined some of these folks will be about this.
- [16:25]
Paige DeSorbo
Well, you had a hell of a week because you wrote, you know, a couple of things, including, you know, the fact that he is desensitizing Americans to, you know, putting troops in city streets, but also that at the same time, he appears to be hoping or trying to radicalize the troops. And I want to talk about his appearance at Fort Bragg because you think about the alignment of the planets, the troops in the street of Los Angeles, his speech at Fort Bragg where he encouraged the troops to boo his political enemies, and of course, the big, beautiful parade you wrote, the silence of the generals as President Trump crossed a dangerous line at Fort Bragg. The brass failed to speak out in the Army's defense. Now, you and I are on a little bit of a thread, and somebody said what a great piece you wrote. And you wrote back that you were writing angry and pointed out, Professor Nichols, you always write angry, but this one, this one was furious, wasn't it? So talk to Me, it's the Hulk.
- [17:25]
Tom Nichols
Line, you know, Dr. Banner, good time to get angry. That's my secret, Cap. I'm always angry.
- [17:31]
Paige DeSorbo
But Bragg.
- [17:34]
Tom Nichols
And, you know, there have been about. I would say there have been three times while Trump's been president before and now where I have felt physically ill watching, you know, because we talk. Oh, Trump makes me sick. No, you know, listen, I'm. I'm a big boy. I worked in politics. I've seen a lot of bad stuff. There are only three times where I've literally felt like a kind of physical sense of revulsion. One was Helsinki in 2018, when Trump basically, you know, stood there. Well, Putin made him sit up and bag and roll over. The other was the White House meeting with Zelensky, where I felt my face growing hot with embarrassment, sympathetic embarrassment at the shameful behavior of Trump and Vance. And the Fort Bragg thing was the third one. I spent. As, you know, Charlie, I spent 25 years educating American military officers. This was a violation of every sacred tradition, every norm, and including a lot of army regulations. You know, that it was just sickening. It was obscene, the word I keep using over and over again. It was an obscenity, what Trump did and the fact that those young men and women behind him were encouraged and apparently, I guess by some reporting, they were even picked. Like, the rule was no Democrats and no fat kids, right? No Dems, no fatties. And they were picked and encouraged to stand there and hoot and jeer. A former commander in chief, a sitting governor, the mayor of our second largest city, you know, the press, the people who. Whose First Amendment freedoms they're supposed to be willing to die to protect. It was. It was. It was sickening. And that was the. That was only the third time in all these years where I watched it. And that's why. That's why that anger was. Yeah, I had a little extra octane in it this time because I literally felt sort of my stomach royal. What? Not. Not at watching Trump. I mean, Trump just does his usual clownery. But I was watching all of those uniformed army people behind him, and I thought, this is the. This is the worst thing I have ever seen. And I've worked with the military for going on almost 30 years.
- [19:58]
Paige DeSorbo
You know, this has been a pattern is. You know, it's. Trump can be outrageous, but the genuine outrage is often the reaction to it is the failure to push back, to stand up, to say this was inappropriate. And the reality is that he's created this environment in which the generals know that if they do Push back. If they do remind people about what the norms of the military are, they're out, they're gone. And so no one's going to stand up and to the point about the radicalization of the military. I know that there's some wishful thinking out there that if Trump goes too far that soldiers and generals will refuse to obey orders. You may be more optimistic about that, but I think that he is clearly trying to, over period of time, transform the military, transform the military culture, to eliminate all of those, not just the voices in the room who will tell him, no, Mr. President, you cannot use the army to shoot protesters. But also, the army is not loyal to you, it's loyal to the country. I mean, I see him as part of this transformation of government, trying to groom the military to follow his will.
- [21:07]
Tom Nichols
I remain optimistic because I've known so many people in our military. But I will tell you what shook me about Fort Bragg. For that to happen, there had to have been either the careerist cowardice and complicity of some of the officers, or there were officers who actually thought it was a good idea. And neither of those are good options, because in any better America that existed before Donald Trump began this campaign of corroding our values, people would have been fired for this, like, instantly. You know, the, the base, I mean, I, I don't, I don't know what the base commander's view on this is, but he's the base commander, that, he's the guy that takes the heat. If somebody let somebody set up a merch stand to sell, you know, on, on government property, someone needed to get fired for that. Whether it's the base commander or, or some lower level officer who signed that piece of paper. That guy needs to get fired. And it bothers me to think that, you know, and I, and I name names in this, you know, General Kane, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, the, the Army Chief of Staff, the base commander, either they're too scared to speak up or they agreed with it.
- [22:33]
Paige DeSorbo
And the merge thing was, was a tell, wasn't it?
- [22:37]
Tom Nichols
Yes, because you had to get permission to do that. And somebody at Fort Bragg said, sure, sell, sell little cards that are, you know, little white privilege cards on, on government property.
- [22:49]
Paige DeSorbo
This was one of those that I thought, no, that can't be true. Right. That's going to be an urban legend that they're actually selling cards. A white privilege. What? Trump is always right or something like that. I mean, not ironic at all. And they, they allowed that. This is terrifying.
- [23:04]
Tom Nichols
Okay, so let me just Say, Charlie, when I would. When I would work at the Naval War College and I was writing articles that in my own name rather than as a government employee.
- [23:13]
Paige DeSorbo
Yeah.
- [23:13]
Tom Nichols
People would call and say, you need to fire him. And they would have to literally check.
- [23:17]
Paige DeSorbo
I remember this.
- [23:18]
Tom Nichols
Did I? But they would check to say, when he wrote this, was he logged into his government computer? Did he do it on a government computer? Was he on government property? You know, and of course, I being fully aware of how the Hatch act works, I never was. This is literally politicking on military property, things that any of us would have gotten fired for. And again, breach of army regulations against the law. Someone needs to go. But apparently, you know, again, either they agreed with it or they're. Or they're too scared to speak up.
- [23:51]
Paige DeSorbo
Have you read that new profile of Pete Hegseth, by the way, that's out there that I think? Oh, my God. So somebody's got to go.
- [23:59]
Tom Nichols
Live your life so that never and no one ever writes a piece like that about you?
- [24:03]
Paige DeSorbo
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I know that probably a lot of our listeners have the sense that he is, you know, in way over his head, that he is, you know, you know, one of the worst appointees. But trust me, whatever your imagination is, it falls short. You know, what, What a. What a silly, weak, dishonorable man this is. And so we talk about who is going to uphold discipline in the military. Well, this is Pete Hegset's military right now.
- [24:29]
Tom Nichols
You know what made me uncomfortable about that piece, Charlie? I have no particular love for any of the people that were involved in that story because they're all willing to work for Pete Hexa. But to. To do that to one of your friends, this, this Caldwell fellow, you know, like you're. You, You. You're being. You've been hired by a guy that you've known for years. You think you're friends and you don't even get a call. Some guys just show up in your office and say, pack your stuff or you're out. And I thought, what. Who does that? I mean, what is. Yeah, you know, over and over. What? Over some sort of internal Pentagon pissing match. Like, as if the Pentagon's not in enough disarray to begin with. This is what you're spending your time doing, and you're doing it to your own friends.
- [25:18]
Paige DeSorbo
I mean, it's hard to keep, you know, sort of track and calibrate everything. I mean, you, You. You have the. The brutality, the cruelty, and then you have just so much of it is just Pettiness. Just bullshit. Pettiness. Just pettiness. Okay, so let's, let's talk about what's going on in Los Angeles right now, because this is, of course, one of the dominant stories of the week. The substantive stories. The president, who I think is like 2 inches away from invoking the Insurrection act, sends thousands of National Guard and federalizes the National Guard and then also sends in 700 active duty Marines despite not just the history, but rather clear black letter law, Posse Comitatus, that says you cannot use active military for law enforcement. So you wrote Trump is using the National Guard as bait. Don't give him the pretext he wants. What were you warning about?
- [26:12]
Tom Nichols
Donald Trump wants to draw the foul. He wants people to go into the streets, taunt these, these guys who, as one story pointed out today, these guardsmen and Marines who don't want to be there. They're not happy. They don't want this mission. They don't want to be doing it. Trump wants the video, and he got it. I mean, look, however this ends, Trump's gotten the images that he wanted. You have literally, you know, burning cars. You have a row of kids facing off against the LAPD waving Mexican flags. Trump wants that narrative. He wants say, see, I am protecting you. And this is not about California. Nobody in California is going to buy that. I mean, you know, Californians are proud of their heritage. There's a lot of people in California, in Los Angeles, he's reaching out to that disaffected group that's not quite maga, not willing to vote for Democrats. Say, just remember, no matter what they say about me, I'm the strong man protecting this country from a foreign invasion. And if you don't want, you know, Lima, Lima, Ohio, or Springfield, Massachusetts, or, you know, wherever to become like, Los Angeles, I'm the only thing that stands between this and you. And that's, that's all he want. Stephen Miller couldn't have stage managed some of those pictures better. And that's exactly what the trap he laid. And people walked right into it.
- [27:38]
Paige DeSorbo
No, this is, and I do think that there are more, you know, more and more people are realizing, look, these are creating ads for Donald Trump. And you, you have to decide, do you want to scratch your particular ID or do you actually want to, you know, successfully defy Trumpism? And quite frankly, and I got a lot of blowback on all of this. You know, waving Mexican flags at American service members is, is not going to win hearts and influence people. It's just, it is, it is not, you know, I tried to imagine the rallies on Saturday, if, in fact you have mass rallies that are peaceful and lots of American flags. Maybe the don't tread on me flags, completely different image. And be interesting to see how law enforcement reacts to that. But unfortunately, and unfortunately, we also have this other pattern here, and I think we need to be honest about it. Yes, the vast majority of the protests are peaceful, but there are groups on the left as well as the right, but on the left who come out at night, wear the masks and foment violence and justify the violence. And those people are Stephen Miller's fever dreams. And I'm absolutely convinced that in the Oval Office they think this is an absolute stone cold winner for Donald Trump. Not sure that's the case. There's some polls that raise some questions about that. But there's a real downside risk for Democrats because of this long tradition of people siding with the forces of law and order. If, if the protesters, in fact do know, look like anarchists, violent anarchists.
- [29:17]
Tom Nichols
My colleagues, John Lemire and some of our colleagues at the Atlantic has wrote a piece about this saying the White House is delighted with this, and well, they should be, because it's not about winning the immediate fight about whether ICE can arrest people. It's about the long game of changing the public's perception. And I would also add, I think Trump wants to radicalize. You know, this goes back to the Fort Bragg problem. Trump wants to radicalize those guys. He wants these young Marines and National Guardsmen who are like, what the hell am I doing here? He wants them to go home and say, you know what, it is pretty bad out there. And the best thing that could happen is if those Guardsmen who live in California go home and say, I don't know what the hell this guy was thinking. It was fine. You know, that's. There's kind of an ink spot strategy here of when those guys go home and say, listen, things were not that bad, that word spreads. But Trump doesn't. Trump and Miller want people to want them to go home and say some kid waved. Well, you know, everybody can recognize the Mexican flag there, but there were other flags or Palestinian flags.
- [30:23]
Paige DeSorbo
Like, you know, yeah, that was helpful.
- [30:24]
Tom Nichols
Go home and say some kid waved a flag I don't even recognize in my face and threw bottles at me. And that's, that's like, you say that's their fever dream.
- [30:34]
Paige DeSorbo
Well, I mean, you look at the. You want to talk about extreme rhetoric, I don't recommend that people do this on their own. Time. But if you just watch the social media posts of people like Stephen Miller, just the language that they're using, I mean, Trump himself, you know, keeps talking about using words like invaded and occupied. You know, Miller, you know, tweets out, look at all the foreign flags. Los Angeles is occupied territory. I mean, think, think about that. And then of course, you have Kristi Noem, who does not know what habeas corpus is. This is how she describes sending Marines into Los Angeles. She wrote, we are not going away. We are staying here to liberate the city from the socialists and the burdensome leadership this governor and this mayor have placed on this country and what they have tried to insert into the city. So she intends apparently to liberate the entire city from, from its elected officials. Okay.
- [31:27]
Tom Nichols
From its own government.
- [31:28]
Paige DeSorbo
This is not Fallujah, this is not Baghdad. This is Los Angeles. So there are some polls that do suggest that maybe this is not the full on winner that Trump thinks it is. But again, I don't think there should be any ambiguity on anybody's part. So what do you think about the whole Gavin Newsom thing? I am an extreme Gavin Newsom skeptic, but it did seem like, man, he's kind of finding his mojo right now. What do you think? You've been watching this guy? I think he, I think he's a bit much, but, well, like you, not.
- [32:00]
Tom Nichols
A huge newsome fan. Don't think, probably don't think that governor of California would be a good, you know, from San Francisco, be a good presidential candidate. But he's saying the right things. You know, he's acting like a governor and defending his prerogatives and saying, you can't just come in and take my National Guard and occupy, you know, liberating my, my, you know, the biggest city in my state.
- [32:23]
Paige DeSorbo
Yeah. And he does seem to be punching back. Okay, so let's get to the main event. I don't know what, what is the main event this week? The, you know. Okay. Actually before the main event, by which I mean Israel and Iran. Your thoughts on the massive military parade. I mean, you've seen the pictures, you've seen the videos. They are extraordinary. This has been Donald Trump's, you know, fantasy since, since term, you know, since 1 1.0. It's going to cost tens of millions of dollars, taxpayers and, but it is, you know, and it's his birthday and he wants to have that birthday celebrated with tanks and guns and rockets and missiles. The kind of thing that we generally haven't done in this Country. So talk to me about that.
- [33:07]
Tom Nichols
Well, again, Trump is trying to acclimate us to that, but also, that's what he, he thinks that's what the military's for. He thinks the military is toy soldiers who should salute him and call him sir and make him feel grand about himself. Unless, of course, you're talking about the soldiers who sacrifice for their country. And those guys are just losers.
- [33:27]
Paige DeSorbo
They're the suckers. Yeah.
- [33:29]
Tom Nichols
You know, by the graves. Yeah. In front of a grave site. It's incredible, but it's un American. It's a violation of our civil military traditions. And the founder of the American Army, George Washington would, would probably be appalled at all of this. It's horrifying.
- [33:50]
Paige DeSorbo
Okay, so now let's get to the, the main event. And again, I think just the conjunction of all the planets. The world is right now on the brink of really dangerous disaster. And Donald Trump is focused on, of course, you know, internal, internal enemies. You know, at the very moment when he has American soldiers in American cities, we are seeing some really dangerous moments. You've written about this. Israel's bold, risky attack. The Israeli campaign may be necessary, but preventive wars, and we can talk about that word, preventive wars carry great moral and practical risk. So talk to me about that, Tom, because you turned out this piece. This is bold, it's risky. First indications are, and again, all the caveats about the fog of war would suggest this has been very, very, very successful. But we're just on day one. So talk to me about this.
- [34:45]
Tom Nichols
Well, the Israelis are claiming it's preemptive, that they had to stop an immediate threat. I don't think that's true. But that doesn't mean also that it was, it's wrong for them to go after this Iranian program. But preventive wars, which are wars of choice, they're, they're done by discretion. They're done on your own timetable, as we learn the hard way in Iraq, carry a lot of risk, a lot of moral and strategic risk. And I, and I worry about that because, you know, once you've, once you bite that, once you take a bite of that sandwich, you're gonna have to eat the whole thing. You don't have the presumption of self defense. You don't have the presumption that you are imminently, you know, going to be the victim of an attack. So, you know, I hope they know what, I hope they know what they're doing. But this is gonna, this is a really dangerous moment. And again, doesn't mean that the Israelis shouldn't have done it, but it's that rationale I think doesn't work.
- [35:43]
Paige DeSorbo
All right, well, we'll talk more about this later because I think it is important to figure out what what is going on. Tom Nichols, thank you so much for joining us this week on this extraordinary weekend. And thank you all for watching this episode of to the Contrary podcast. We do this, as you know, to remind ourselves that we are not crazy.
- [36:18]
Charlie Sykes
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Paige DeSorbo
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Tom Nichols
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