Tom Nichols: The Gilded Presidency

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Tom Nichols: The Gilded Presidency"

Released on August 3, 2025

Introduction

In this compelling episode of To The Contrary, host Charlie Sykes engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Tom Nichols, a renowned staff writer at The Atlantic and a long-time friend of the show. The discussion navigates through the intricacies of Donald Trump's presidency, the erosion of institutional integrity, the delicate dynamics of U.S.-Israel relations, and the unsettling influence Trump wields over military and governmental structures.

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Trump’s Gilded White House

Charlie Sykes opens the dialogue by spotlighting President Donald Trump's extravagant plans to renovate the White House with a $200 million gilded dining room, drawing parallels to the opulence of the Gilded Age. He humorously remarks, “apparently he's thinking this looks like the palace of Versailles or something like that” (02:27). Tom Nichols responds by contextualizing this behavior within a broader autocratic framework, stating, “autocrats want to externalize their sense of power... because by their nature, they are not humble citizens” (03:34). This exchange underscores the symbolic assertion of power through grandiose displays, reflecting a departure from traditional presidential modesty.

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Institutional Capitulation: Smithsonian’s Actions

The conversation shifts to the Smithsonian Institution’s controversial decision to remove references to Trump's impeachments, a move Charlie describes as “cartoonishly Orwellian” (07:56). Tom critiques this action as symptomatic of a deeper issue of institutional surrender to presidential pressure: “This is part of that capitulation problem... institutions are still having a failure of imagination” (08:23). He emphasizes that such revisions threaten the integrity of historical record-keeping and erode public trust in prestigious institutions.

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US-Israel Relations and Netanyahu’s Alignment with Trump

Charlie and Tom delve into the complex relationship between U.S. politics and Israeli leadership, focusing on Benjamin Netanyahu's alignment with Donald Trump. Charlie questions the strategic wisdom behind Netanyahu’s close association with Trump’s MAGA ideology, posing, “by doing that, he undermines the bipartisan political support” (12:59). Tom elaborates, highlighting the transactional nature of Trump’s alliances and the inherent instability it introduces: “Trump looks dumb... he doesn't have a learning curve” (12:59). This alignment is portrayed as detrimental to sustained bipartisan support and effective international diplomacy.

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War in Gaza and its Implications

The discussion intensifies as Charlie expresses profound concern over Israel’s military actions in Gaza, unequivocally labeling the civilian casualties as “atrocities” (16:38). Tom concurs, reflecting on the absence of a clear strategic objective beyond relentless aggression: “This is out of control... what the goal is now other than” (19:20). They explore how Netanyahu’s personal political crises may be exacerbating the conflict, leading to widespread humanitarian suffering and diminishing international support for Israel’s actions.

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Trump’s Influence on the Military

A significant portion of the conversation addresses Donald Trump’s unsettling attempts to assert control over the U.S. military hierarchy. Charlie highlights Trump’s insistence on personally interviewing four-star generals to ensure their loyalty, suggesting an obsession with micromanaging military leadership: “he wants to build a cadre of senior officers who feel that their position is entirely dependent on him” (24:02). Tom critically assesses this as a fundamental threat to civil-military relations, warning that such actions undermine the institutional integrity and autonomous strategic decision-making essential to national security.

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Senate’s Role and Confirmation of Controversial Nominees

Charlie and Tom scrutinize the Senate's role in confirming Trump’s controversial nominees, such as Emil Bove and Joe Kent. They argue that the Senate has capitulated, allowing individuals with questionable qualifications and dubious backgrounds to secure significant positions without substantial opposition: “if you think... you're basically saying, fuck it... they have essentially surrendered advice and consent” (36:34). This trend is depicted as emblematic of a broader erosion of checks and balances, where partisan loyalty overrides meritocratic principles.

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Laura Loomer’s Influence

The discussion then turns to Laura Loomer, a figure characterized by Charlie as “the bigoted, freaky new BFF of Donald Trump.” He emphasizes her disruptive influence within the administration, highlighting her role in personnel decisions lacking regard for competence: “she has this kind of power is horrific...” (32:10). Tom expresses astonishment, stating, “I simply cannot imagine this person in the West Wing ever” (33:47), underscoring the dangers of placing unqualified and extremist influencers in sensitive governmental roles.

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Trump’s Obsession with the Nobel Peace Prize

Charlie brings up Donald Trump’s apparent obsession with securing a Nobel Peace Prize, presenting it as a misguided pursuit of global recognition: “This is one of the ideas that stuck in his head that he wants the Nobel Prize” (46:00). Tom responds with skepticism, asserting that the Nobel committee “are not going to cave into him” (48:27). He further critiques Trump’s transactional and superficial approach to international relations, which undermines substantive diplomatic efforts required for such prestigious accolades.

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Conclusion

The episode culminates with reflections on the broader implications of Trump’s actions on American political institutions, military integrity, and international diplomacy. Both Charlie and Tom express deep concern over the erosion of traditional checks and balances, the normalization of autocratic tendencies, and the long-term damage inflicted on governance structures. They underscore the urgent need for institutional resilience and the restoration of meritocratic principles to safeguard democratic integrity.

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Notable Quotes

• Tom Nichols: “Autocrats want to externalize their sense of power... because by their nature, they are not humble citizens.” [03:34]

• Charlie Sykes: “This is cartoonishly Orwellian, that You're basically erasing.” [07:56]

• Tom Nichols: “It tells me that he wants to build a cadre of senior officers who feel that their position is entirely dependent on him.” [24:02]

• Tom Nichols: “This is part of that capitulation problem... institutions are still having a failure of imagination.” [08:23]

• Charlie Sykes: “I don't have any trust at all in Hamas... it's very obvious that we're talking about tens of thousands of civilian casualties.” [16:38]

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Conclusion

This episode of To The Contrary offers a profound examination of the challenges posed by Donald Trump's presidency, highlighting the intersection of personal ambition, institutional decline, and international relations. Through the expertise of Tom Nichols, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the complex dynamics at play, emphasizing the critical need for vigilance and integrity within political and military institutions.

Transcript

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[Charlie Sykes]

Welcome to our weekend podcast to the contrary. I am Charlie Sykes. We have a week of stuff to get through. And who better than the professor himself? Tom Nichols, staff writer at the Atlantic magazine, old friend of the show. How you doing, Tom? I got questions.

[Tom Nichols]

Good. Charlie, good to see you again.

[Charlie Sykes]

Okay. Okay, we're gonna work up to the big stuff. I gotta ask you this question. Okay. So Donald Trump has decided in his spare time running the world and then shitifying the economy that he wants to have a $200 million new dining room in the White House which will be covered in gold. I mean, you know, apparently he's decided that I have to make this literally the gilded age. Now, he's already done this with the Oval Office. You've seen that the company, the kind of.

[Tom Nichols]

It's. I don't think. I didn't coin this, but that, that style that is, you know, Walmart, Liberace.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, that's. That's better than the deeply offensive comment that I read, you know, referring it to Slovenian whorehouse chic. I don't know. But I mean, you know, apparently at some point he's thinking, he's thinking this looks like the palace of Versailles or something like that. And so the question I had for you was, what is it about autocrats in general that they always have such bad art taste? They always want to have the gaudy gilded stuff. Or maybe it's just Trump. What do you think? You know?

[Tom Nichols]

No, I mean, I think there is a. There, There does seem to be kind of autocrats want to externalize their sense of power. Right. They want to show people, look, I'm golden eagles and giant, soaring, you know, arches. And, you know, because they're, because by their nature, they are not humble citizens. I mean, you know, fdr, it was a. When FDR died and Truman moved in, I mean, they had to really. He'd been in there for 12 years and let the White House basically go to sea.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

Because it just wasn't. Amazingly, fdr, his priority wasn't like, you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Know, Gussie, War, depression, you know, World war.

[Tom Nichols]

Right. You know.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

This, this, this thing he wants to put in this ballroom. First of all, it's going to be an ugly scab on the Washington, you know, downtown Washington landscape. But for what. I mean, it's, it's, you know, gonna be. I think George Conway did a thing of the. Excuse me. The downtown D.C. hotel where the White House correspondence dinner is, you know.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

It's a gigantic place, and it's going to be like twice the size of that. And I, I mean, bigger than a football field, apparently.

[Charlie Sykes]

But it is, it is a little, it is a little bit like the, you know, the alleged comedy shows where they would show, like, the, The Prime Minister of Azerbaijan and, and he's in this gigantic. What country am I thinking of? Just these gigantic. That are just almost obscene in their overplay. Well, well, it's also very clear that he wants to leave his mark. And this is, this is a really deeply offensive analogy. But, you know, when, when, when my dogs want to leave their mark, they pee on something. And Donald Trump's like, I want everyone to always remember that I was here. Right. I mean, I'm going to get rid of that, that Kennedy Rose Garden. We're going to build the Trump wing of all this. You know, by the time this is over, you know what's going to happen? You're going to have this giant golden statue of Donald Trump placed, you know, atop the Washington Monument, and it's going.

[Tom Nichols]

To replacing the Washington Monument. Why should we have a big, boring piece of chalk sitting across from the White House when we could have, you know, a big statue of Donald Trump?

[Charlie Sykes]

That's right. You know, that's what makes America. Yeah, that's right. I mean, well, also, it's like I'm bigger than Washington and that's just, that's ugly. Look, look, what I can, I can give you. And you know, it would pass the United States Senate by at least one vote.

[Tom Nichols]

He doesn't. The thing with Trump, that's, that's, you know, is part of that narcissistic autocratic personality. He doesn't ever think of himself as a steward of the public trust or public goods or public property.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

He thinks the White House belongs to him. And what he wants to do is erase Jack Kennedy and Ronald Reagan and George Bush and Barack Obama and all these other presidents so that it becomes, you know, Mar a Lago on the Potomac. And he envisions, I'm sure now, first of all, he can only be in office for another three years. So building this ballroom tells me that he's thinking, well, maybe I could be around longer than that. But, you know, that I'm sure the fantasies. He walks from the residence into this gigantic, you know, kind of plastic Versailles that he's going to create. And there's thunderous applause and, and people cheering him, because that's what he gets at Mar a Lago. I mean, the guy disrupts everybody's events in Mar A Lago. People are getting married and he walks in, hey, there I am, you know, walking through a dinner. He doesn't, he doesn't. There's no conception that the government of the United States, the White House, the buildings, the desk, everything, they are not his. They are something that have been that the people have entrusted him, or 50% of the people anyway, have entrusted to him as the temporary steward of those things.

[Charlie Sykes]

And not just the things grasp. I mean, he's not a steward of the values and all of this. Okay, so along the same lines, what do you make of the story again? You know, the 1st of August, what headline do we get that under pressure from Donald Trump, the Smithsonian has removed references to his impeachments, which feels like almost cartoonishly Orwellian, that You're basically erasing. What do you make of that?

[Tom Nichols]

Interesting too, the way that the Smithsonian did this was to say that only three presidents have ever faced serious chance of removal. Johnson, Nixon, and Clinton. Clinton was in no danger of being removed. I mean, that wasn't going to happen. Nixon wasn't even formally impeached. Had he been impeached, he might. Well, Donald Trump holds the record. He's been impeached twice. And what bothers me is not that Trump pressured. I mean, the Trump team is, you know, it is, it is right out of Borat or, you know, some bad movie about dictatorships. But so the, the bigger point about the capitulation problem is that, you know, yeah, it's, I'm sure in some cases it really is cowardly. And there are people say, oh, we don't want to cross the President. I think the bigger problem is that people are still, these institutions are still having a failure of imagination. And I imagine what they're saying is, look, sign some, deal with him, take down the impeachment thing, give him shiny stuff to make him go away. And they don't realize that he's not gonna just go away, he'll keep coming back. Because it's not just him. I mean, the President himself has the attention span of, you know, that's measured in a half life of milliseconds.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

But the people around him are really, you know, sort of enjoying this. They are, you know, pushing this and they are enjoying pushing around institutions that they think of as elitist. And you know that. So they're going to keep doing this. And so I sometimes think it's not that anybody at Harvard or Columbia said, oh, Donald Trump is so awesome and scary. It's that they keep thinking, well, all right, so, you know, we cut a deal, we to do this stuff. He goes away. We never really have to do it. He goes on to something else. You know, once you've made those deals that, you know that you've put a scar on yourself. I mean, the Smithsonian, right, A place I love, you know, as a former Washingtonian, a place I trust, you know, and I understand why they may be doing this, but I.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's embarrassing. It really. It is embarrassing. I mean, it has a long term cost, right? I mean, and I understand the, hey, just make it go away. But on the other level, you would think that there would be enough grownups who would say, that is absolutely ridiculous, go back to the White House and say, we'll look silly, you'll look silly, you know, trying to Rewrite history. And I do think it is, it is the capitulation, or they should, or.

[Tom Nichols]

They should do what Trump does and say we're looking at it very strongly. We'll get back to you.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, right. We'll get back to you in two weeks about all of that, or we'll appoint a committee. I mean, part of the problem, problem is that he has surrounded himself with, with the court, with people who are vying with one another for, you know, can I go to daddy with, with some other outrage, how can I prove my loyalty? You know, and, and of course, many of these things are absolutely and completely absurd. So now I want to switch something a little bit more important because I was going to hold this for a little bit later and because I, I, I sense, and I had, I did a live stream with Julian Zelizer a little bit earlier. I really feel that there is a historic and political pivot going on about with, between America and Israel and the politics of Israel and Gaza. With many of the strongest supporters of Israel now moving away, the public opinion polls shifting harshly against them. Democrats are divided. Republicans are starting to be divided globally and internationally. I think their image is suffering. But I want to talk about Benjamin Netanyahu's, I think, many miscalculations. One of them was to join himself so tightly with Donald Trump. He's gone all in with Maga. I mean, he, you know, and I'm endorsing you for the Nobel Peace Prize. And the problem is, is that, you know, by doing that, he undermines the bipartisan political support. But also Donald Trump, you know, he apparently didn't get the memo. Donald Trump is not a reliable ally. And so Donald Trump sees some images on television speaking of the memory of a Mayfly. And so where do you see that going? What's going on in Donald Trump's mind and in the politics of Israel, Gaza and the United States.

[Tom Nichols]

There's only one foreign leader who has Donald Trump's unequivocal loyalty, and that's Vladimir Putin. You know, he has criticized. And I was gonna say Netanyahu has made the one mistake that Putin also made that brought out some anger from Trump, which is that you can do a lot of things to Donald Trump in. You can't make him look stupid, you can't humiliate him. And the war, you know, this, I mean, Trump, weeks ago, right? We're almost there. Got a hostage release. We're going to, you know, it's close two weeks, it's 10 days. And Netanyahu, just like Putin, is Saying, yeah, that's all very interesting, Donald, and I love you and you're, you know, you're my guy, but I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing. And so, you know, Trump looks dumb. He looks like a SAP. And so I think his, you know, his attachment to Netanyahu is considerably less than his attachment to some other leaders. And he's also not gotten, you know, again, because Trump is so transactional and so narcissistic. Hey, Charlie, do you remember that we actually did this epical thing and bombed Iran?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, like two weeks ago, remember?

[Tom Nichols]

Three, two. Who can remember? Because Trump got nothing out of it. He took a hit at home. It didn't solve the problem. All the reports that are coming out now are like, oh, we kind of. We got one site, we scratched two others. We sort of damage. It was, it was a huge foreign policy risk done with goading from Netanyahu, who, I think Netanyahu. And this was my feeling early on in that conflict. Netanyahu said, I'm going to start this campaign. I'm going to start a campaign that I can't really finish, and I'm going to hope that it drags in the Americans and it turns into regime change. And none of that. Well, I think that, you know, they could. There was no way that the Israelis could take out those sites. They knew it. They embarked on this in the hopes that the Americans would say, okay, we're in. But, but looked at from Donald Trump's point of view now, whether you think bombing Iran, you know, I certainly, after Iraq, I've been a lot more. Gunshot. I've not been a fan. You know, this, you. And I've talked about this for years. Everybody thinks that I'm all in on, you know, every war in the Middle east, but I've been for years saying, you know, you don't want to get into a war with yet another large three times the size of Iraq, you know, and have to deal with that. But whether you think it was a good idea or not, from Trump's point of view, it's gotten him nothing. No, it's gotten him, you know, embarrassment and, you know, and so what is his relationship with Netanyahu? He's been in a war. He, he joined in on a war that's been, to say the least, inconclusive. And, and the Israelis, and I shouldn't say the Israelis, this is, you know, Netanyahu and are pursuing this, this ghastly war in Gaza that has become, I think there, there's evidence of War crimes. I mean, it's, it's a terrible, it's a, it's just terrible black guy, first of all. And again, Trump has to be sitting there watching, saying, what am I getting out of this? What, what has my unequivocal support of this guy bought me? And the answer is heartburn. Just pure heartburn.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, this is part of the problem, that the pictures coming out of Gaza are so horrific and whatever word you want to use, and I've never used the word genocide, but I have. You use the word atrocity here, you know, we're talking about. And I want to make it very clear, I have no trust at all in Hamas. I'm very, very skeptical of the UN and some of the numbers that they have, but it's very obvious that we're talking about tens of thousands of civilian casualties. Lots of know whether it's 50 or 60,000. And I just keep coming back to how much goodwill, international goodwill after October 7, Benjamin Netanyahu has squandered and the way, and a lot of us have been trying to separate our longtime support of Israel from this particular Netanyahu regime with its extreme right wing cabinet and everything. But it's, it's, it, it feels, and I use the word monstrous, and I think this was a just war in the beginning. The response, I think it was completely legitimate. Israel has a right to exist and defend itself. And yet, you know, at what point do you step back and you go, hey, I really like you guys, I support Israel. I want to be an ally of the Jewish people, but this is not sustainable. This is horrible. And the whole world is watching what's happening and they are appalled by it.

[Tom Nichols]

What is your, I mean, you're, I think first of all, your point about this being a just war is really important. I mean, after October 7th, I think like most people, I said, of course you have to go to war, of course you do. Yeah, you know, this is, that was the point. That attack was meant to spark a war, just. But it was a terrible miscalculation by the leaders of Hamas. But, you know, a year and a half, almost two years later, asking as you do, okay, what is, what is the objective here? I mean, if this is, you know, what is the strategic objective of this kind of just, you know, pulverizing Gaza? And I, I'm, I took a lot of heat on social media because I, having taught international relations and taught at a war college, I am a stickler about the word genocide. I still don't use that word for what's happening. But war crimes. Yeah, I think there's, you know, there have been there. You know, this is out of control. And I don't understand what the, the, what the goal is now other than.

[Charlie Sykes]

What is the end.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, I have to think that this is all bound up in Netanyahu's personal political trouble.

[Charlie Sykes]

That's what makes this so monstrous. Right. If he's continuing this, if he is doing this in order to protect his own ass, because he knows that when the war is over, he'll be tossed out of office and might face prison time. So therefore he's what. And not to mention this balancing act with these really. I mean, we're talking about some really extreme folks in this cabinet. And, you know, it's. So this is why I think you're seeing public opinion shifting on this. And I think they're. There may be a generational shift here that Israel has counted upon international support, has counted on American support, and they may think of this as just sort of an ephemeral blip, but I don't think it is. If they don't figure out a way to resolve this.

[Tom Nichols]

They haven't learned anything from our experience with 9 11, which was the whole world was on our side and we squandered that and there's just no way around, you know, it's that we just, we never again had the benefit of the doubt, you know, after, especially after the invasion of Iraq. And, you know, I think that that should have been an object lesson that you, you can. When you have the world on your side, when you've been wronged, when you've been attacked so brutally, yeah, you can embark on a just war, but I mean that, you know, 10-7-Now is already kind of again, like 9 11. It's receding far enough into the the. For people watching this say, what is what, you know, why. Why are we still watching the rubble bounce?

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

So I don't. But, you know, I think.

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[Tom Nichols]

I just don't. Going back to the question about Trump, I think regardless of why Israel is doing this, regardless of why Netanyahu is doing this, if you're wondering what's going on with Trump, I think it's because he's figured out of all the transactional deals he makes, this one just isn't working out for him. It's not. He doesn't, the thing about Trump is he doesn't ever want to be standing next to somebody who's, who's getting heat brought down on them. You know, he. Right. We've seen this here at home all the time, right? About, hey, who ordered, you know, who ordered the paws in Ukraine? Well, you tell me. You know, who. You know, why can't the doj. I know, right? He's the president. Why can't the DOJ release these records? Well, I don't have anything to do with that. Yeah, you're the, you're the freaking president. Of course you do. But that's very much a Trump thing that, you know, whenever, whenever one of his friends is in trouble, he, he backs away. He steps out into the lobby and then says, I hardly know the guy.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. I mean, by the time this is over, he's say, who's this Netanyahu guy? Didn't he get coffee? All right, so now, speaking of military, I wanted to get your take on something that I've seen you, you write about. And it's one of those, it seems like kind of a strange story where Donald Trump now is insisting on interviewing all four star generals to make sure that they are all war fighters. So again, talk to me about that a little bit. And clearly there's a real obsession with purging the military West Point of anyone whose loyalty to Donald Trump is questionable. But the, this personal interview with the four star generals, what does that tell you, Tom?

[Tom Nichols]

You know, it tells me that he wants to build a cadre of senior officers who feel that their position is entirely dependent on him. And that their views are completely, completely in sync with his. Not about strategic issues, but about personal political issues. He has dumped every female leader in the military out. All of his future nominees are men, mostly white, middle aged white guys, as, you know, officer, as senior officers often are. But this, this, you know, you know that I hate these Hitler analogies and I push back on, you know, 1933, but there is a kind of furor, oath feel to this one. You know, before you become the most senior rank of an American officer, you and I need to take a walk, you know, on the South Lawn and, you know, you need to tell me where your heart's at. And that is utterly contrary to the.

[Charlie Sykes]

American.

[Tom Nichols]

System of, of civil military relations. Now, you know, Trump, I suppose the Trump folks could say, well, the President nominates these people. Yes, right, he nominates them, but based on their military achievements and their merit and their record, not on whether they took a walk together, you know, around the grounds. And the guy said, sir, you're my guy, you know, with tears in my eyes, sir, remember? And this is really important, he tried to depict General Kane that way, the current chairman of the Joint Chiefs, he said, this guy, he wore a MAGA hat and he said, sir, I would kill for you. Now, Kane, you know, if I have to pick between General Kane and the President about who's telling the truth, I'm going to pick Dan Kane. But Kane had to back away from that really fast. So that wasn't me. I didn't do that. But it tells you something, that Donald Trump wanted to appoint a chairman of the Joint Chiefs who he thinks was loyal to him.

[Charlie Sykes]

And again, this walk around that they're taking, I do wonder whether explicitly or implicitly the question is, and if I give you an order, even an illegal order, can I be sure that you will follow my order, that you will do whatever I say? Because this has been an obsession of Donald Trump's for some time, right, is that he wants generals. He likes the idea of generals, but he wants generals who will do what he says, even if it's illegal. And so they fired, they went through and they fired a lot of the, the lawyers, the people who advise generals, who advise.

[Tom Nichols]

Colonel, first we kill all the lawyers.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, that's usually a good idea, but in this particular case, he's cleared it out. Where generals have to, you know, obey only lawful orders, they have to obey a lawful order, but they can say, I'm sorry, that is not a lawful order. So two things. Who's going to tell them that anymore?

[Tom Nichols]

Who's going to.

[Charlie Sykes]

And, and have they basically been vetted in such a way that whatever he tells them to do, that they will do. And so I mean, this is a, this again is one of those really dangerous moments. We do have civilian control of the military. It's a fundamental principle. But we've never had the military. The generals have to swear basically an oath of allegiance to the, to a one to one political figure. And that's what's frightening.

[Tom Nichols]

We don't have to guess at this, Charlie, because he had the same conversation with Jim Comey. Remember they had dinner and he was like, you know, I need to know. You know, I always think of, because you know that I only live through pop culture. I always think of Jack Palance and Batman, you know, saying, you are my number one guy, you know that I gotta know that you're my guy, you know. And I suspect what will happen, as is happening in so many parts of the government, is that these men, because they will all be men Trump's not going to elevate. There are, I actually pointed out there are no currently serving four star female officers. None in the military.

[Charlie Sykes]

You would think that would be more controversial. You would think that would be a bigger story.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, if people knew about it, yes. But there are no currently serving female four stars. So these men, I suspect what will happen is they will manage up the way everybody has to with Trump where he says, oh, you, you know, you're got to be my guy. And I'm sure, well, sir, you know, I serve the Constitution and the president, the orders of president and lawful orders. And you know, I think anybody who gets interviewed by him is going to, it's going to be just an obstacle course like the way Comey had to deal with dinner, that you're just kind of walking through these, this minefield.

[Charlie Sykes]

But you know, they're skillful enough to do that. Right, right.

[Tom Nichols]

But. And the two things that worry me the most are that they, that, that Trump will unearth some two or three star who he wants to promote, who says finally a president who gets me and.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

And that I look can love.

[Charlie Sykes]

Or.

[Tom Nichols]

That as you point out, you know, that these will be weak willed enough careerists who will say, all right, I can manage this, I guess, you know, but then when the rubber meets the road, you know, we're gonna say, I, you know, don't really have that ability to stand up and say, I'm not doing that well.

[Charlie Sykes]

I mean, remember, this is kind of a, a throwback to the first term. Do you Remember, maybe it was even in the first campaign where Trump was openly saying that, you know, that we would, would kill terrorists. Famil would basically go out and commit war crimes. And he's always been, he's had a thing for war criminals and people who have been accused of atrocities. And so he said that he would, you know, tell the military to go kill their families. And there was some pushback, saying, well, you know, that would, you know, would the military, you know, do that? And remember what Trump's answer was? They'll do anything I tell them to do. Now, at that time, there were still enough norms or whatever for people to push back and say, no, no, no, the military would not commit an atrocity like that. I just don't know. But in Donald Trump's mind, he is thinking of all of these scenarios. He's thinking this way, and he just does not want a general ever to say, Mr. President, we can't do that. That would be illegal or unconstitutional. And that's what's scary. Okay, speaking of scary, this is what I.

[Tom Nichols]

Can I make one more point about the generals?

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Tom Nichols]

Which is there was this boilerplate nonsense about, well, we have to make sure they're war fighters and not bureaucrats.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes.

[Tom Nichols]

First of all, every four star general is, has to reach four stars. You've had to be a successful bureaucrat. Because I don't know what these guys, what Peg, Seth or anybody else thinks a four star does, but they don't, you know, they don't step out on the battlefield, you know, or ride out there on their horse and draw their sword. You know, that's not what a four star does. They are. And I would recommend that people read many possibilities. Read Tony Zinni's memoirs. They are bureaucrats, they are diplomats, they are politicians, they are military leaders, they are strategists. If a four star is out there on the field issuing operational orders, then that's a bad four star. There's a whole bunch of people underneath him that are supposed to be doing that. And this notion that we're going to interview them and make sure that they're blood and guts and patent directing traffic, you know, in the muddy fields of France, that's, that's horseshit. That's not what a four star general or admiral is supposed to be doing. And that, that worries me as well because that's just a misunderstanding of the job.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, but that's probably the movie that Donald Trump has seen. He thinks it's Patton directing the directing traffic. Okay, so speaking of Scary. And this relates to all of this, is the role of Laura Loomer. And this goes in the category of I thought it would be bad, and I have to admit, I didn't think it was going to be this bad. I mean, she described her last September as the bigoted, freaky new BFF of Donald Trump. I mean, a woman who is so far out there, I mean, even Marjorie Taylor Greene thinks she's a racist. And now I think you could argue that she is as influential as anyone on the outside in terms of the personnel decisions. She know. She, you know. Yes. And I mean, they just nixed some, you know, major West Point appointment of a woman, a highly qualified woman. But. So if you are loomered in the Trump administration, you're dead. I mean, the fact that Laura Loomer, and I cannot stress how insane this woman is, that she has this kind of power is horrific, especially when you start thinking about how important some of these jobs are, how sensitive they are, and how little she's concerned about whether they are competent. But she goes to. She goes to daddy and says, look, I found somebody else who's been naughty. I found somebody else who's been disloyal. I found somebody else who did or said something that you won't like. See, see, see? And this is the coin of the realm in this regime.

[Tom Nichols]

Can I, you know, Charlie, in a strange way, can I say that I'm almost like you? Let me back up and say, like, you. I just could. Didn't think. I thought, okay, Laura Loomer, she got her one shot. She got an audience in the Oval. She knocked off a couple of guys in the National Security Council. But, you know, this is basically a conspiracy theorist, Internet influencer, a person. Embarrassed. Embarrassing. I mean, just could not possibly imagine this person, you know, in the West Wing ever. Okay? But now, now that it's gotten to this, there's a part of me that says, you know, those of you that threw in your lot with Donald Trump thinking, you know, well, I can. I will affect policy. I will be, you know, the guy that, you know, behind the scenes.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, I think it's really kind of, in a way, great to say no, Your career, your mortgage, your future depends on Laura Loomer. And this is what you deserve because this is the. This whole carny, you know, this whole carnival midway of weirdos, you know, that Trump has empowered, you know, that. That has cost, even for people who are in the show, you know, even for people who are the exhibits. And. And I think, you Know, it's terrifying. I shouldn't say it's terrifying. I mean, this whole thing is terrifying because it says that nobody. I. I keep wondering who's running the government.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

In the middle of all this chaos and idiocy. But, you know, there is a part of me that says, oh, you. You know, you. You thought you had a career with that by joining the Trump train, by getting, you know, by going down the midway and putting on the straw hat and getting them that you. You were safe. No, you're not. And this is the price that you pay.

[Charlie Sykes]

And the Senate is letting him get along, you know, getting away with it. I mean, I think this week was in some ways a clarifying moment for anyone who thought that the Senate might exert some sort of a tempering effect on all of this. You know, when they confirmed Emil Beauvais to the Court of Appeals. And then I think even worse. I mean, that was worse. I mean, that was terrible. This is the, you know, deeply unqualified former criminal attorney for Donald Trump who's just basically a thug and a hack. And yet they rolled over and they confirmed him, despite all of the folks saying, no, you know, whistleblowers coming forward, whatever. Even in some ways, even worse, this guy, Joe Kent, who was confirmed by the Senate to be like, this head of this countertella. Counterintelligence, whatever.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, Joe Kent National Counterterrorism Center.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. The national business. Either Joe Kent was a disgraced former congressional candidate. And to say that the paper trail on his racism, association with white nationalist conspiracy theories, it is just so long. If there was anyone, if there was anyone that the Senate would say, yeah, no, it would be him. But this is a Senate that's confirmed Cash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard and Pete Hegseth, and you just keep going down the list, and the confirmation of someone like Joe Kent, you would be embarrassed to have him in your House. You would be embarrassed to be in the same office with this guy. And yet they roll over and they confirm him is another indication. You talk about capitulation, but also that there are no checks on what Donald Trump is doing. And the Senate has just essentially completely surrendered advice and consent. If they think those nominees. If you voted for Tulsi Gabbard, if you vote for Joe Kent, if you vote for Emil Bove, you're basically saying, fuck it, I just want to be a senator.

[Tom Nichols]

That's what it always comes down to. Charlie. I like the job. People bring me cough. I keep saying this, you know, why would you Vote to confirm, you know, Beauvais or Kent. Because I like it that people bring me coffee in the morning. I like it that somebody picks me up for work and drives me.

[Charlie Sykes]

It's better than that. Do you know that? And I had a former friend who was a senator who was like really amused by this at one time before he became insane. We don't have to mention any names like Ron Johnson, that when a senator was crossing the street, they will stop traffic for a United States senator. The cops will say, oh Senator, you don't have to wait for a red light. You just, you do that, you know, get used to that kind of shit.

[Tom Nichols]

My worst senator story, and I can, I can tell it because he's dead, was apparently like the, the most dictatorial senator like this, that, that I knew back in, in my day on there was Arlen Specter who once chewed out a, he chewed out a he, he picked up, this was a legendary story. He picks up a sandwich, he bites into it in this like glop of mustard or mayonnaise or something falls on his tie and he, and he turns and he reams out a, an aid by saying, I told you I, I, I can't believe I told you I wanted my sandwiches pre squeezed.

[Joe]

Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly and earning customer trust has never mattered more. Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay super secure with the most advanced AI automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get [e-mail].

[Charlie Sykes]

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Tide]

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Tom Nichols]

You know, like I wanted. Oh yeah, I mean if you handed.

[Charlie Sykes]

Him a new from now on. No, I want my sandwich.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, if an aide read the paper before the senator didn't handed it to him, he threw it back at him. Wants fresh paper. It's good to be a senator. It's a good life. You know, it, it doesn't suck. And, but, but I think the other thing.

[Charlie Sykes]

Sandwich is squeezed. I just, you know, I mean, it.

[Tom Nichols]

Was such a, it was such a, such a. Of course, we were in the other senator from Pennsylvania's office, so, you know, we weren't going to talk out of turn about our colleague from Pennsylvania, but.

[Charlie Sykes]

I would think a rock star would be embarrassed to say in his contract, I want this number of jelly beans and I want this kind of Evian water and I want all of my sandwiches to be pre squeezed. I think that would be like too far.

[Tom Nichols]

Hey, but again, the, the other half of this equation, Charlie, is not just that it's a good life to be a senator and you get your sandwiches just the way you want them. And you know, your newspapers are always fresh and crisp, but also, they're afraid of their own constituents.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, otherwise, why is, why did Thom Tillis fall into line? He's leaving. You know, everybody makes these big declarations of conscience, well, I'm finally out. I can't vote for. I can't be a part. And then they do it anyway. Because they don't. Because they fe having to go home and be there. I think we're underestimating the, the actual physical fear of violence that some of these legislators have, as well as the kind of let less likely but more overarching problem of just social opprobrium that they would face in their districts.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. Yes. They're afraid of being yelled at in the, in the deli or they were being yelled at in the airport.

[Tom Nichols]

Through the airport. Exactly.

[Charlie Sykes]

So you, you like, you like the pop culture. The best line from the first Ghostbusters movie. Remember the very, very best line when I think it was Dan Aykroyd, you know, is referring to the bad guy in that movie, by the way, is an EPA agent, which I always found interesting turns. I think he's talking to the mayor of New York or whatever, and he's describing the EPA agent and he says, yes, sir, this man has no dick. Yeah. And Thom Tillis has done this over and over and over again. Do you Remember in Trump 1.0 he actually wrote an op ed piece like, I cannot go along with this bogus declaration of an emergency to fund the border wall. He actually writes an op ed saying why he was going to vote against this. And then like a week later he votes for it because, well, he's Tom Tills.

[Tom Nichols]

Okay, well, because but also the senators are speaking to two audiences. They come out and they say, my conscience for people who read newspapers, right, I am making a declaration that my conscience is bothering me. But when it comes time and I actually have to go back to, to, you know, back home to Carolina and face my vote, I'd say, well, I voted against it.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, yeah. And no, that's, that's it.

[Tom Nichols]

You know, I think you're absolutely right. I think that the answer, Charlie, is to say, you know what? It, I just want to be a senator. And I, I think also, they just, just, I think there, there is also some. And I, and I'm just trying to do mind reading here at this point, but I wonder if there's some part of them says, oh, you want, you want this guy to be the head of the nctc? No, I'm not going to take the heat for it, so I'm going to vote for it. And then when he crashes and burns, as he will, you can't come at me and say, you know, I, look, I did what the President wanted. I mean, look at Dan Bongino. Bongino didn't need Senate confirmation. But, you know, the funniest thing about Dan Bongino is he, he's found many. Going to work every day in the federal government is hard. It's not fun, it's boring. You know, it's like, you know, I used to be able to sit at a microphone and be a podcaster and say all kinds of crazy.

[Charlie Sykes]

Some things he's going through, some things, it's, it's really, really sad. Okay, so this is a good segue into the, the story about the tariffs and the tacos and everything, because, you know, I saw a tweet from somebody that I respect very much is that, you know, you know, Trump is imposing all these vast new tariffs. Nobody quite understands why or where they're going. And he posted, you know, Congress could put an end to this in one day. I mean, you know, the Constitution makes it very, very clear that Congress has the power to levy tariffs. It's not something that was designed to be unilateral. And yet Congress has surrendered that power, given the President power, and the chance that Congress would actually step in and say, hey, we are actually a co. Equal branch of government is absolutely zero. It is sub zero that they have surrendered this. So give me your take on the latest Liberation Day that we had on Friday, where we had the shitty job numbers, the stock market crash, and yet Donald Trump is just rolling ahead, threatening allies, slapping huge Tariffs on the, you know, our enemies in Canada, tacoing on China and Mexico.

[Tom Nichols]

Well, two things. First of all, nobody, and I think this is probably true of 99% of the people on Trump's team, nobody thinks tariffs are a good idea except Donald Trump, because he doesn't understand them. He doesn't understand how they work. He does. Like so many things, Donald Trump has had this one fixed idea for 40 years that tariffs are a way that you prize money out of difficult countries. And he just doesn't. I mean, I think he genuinely just doesn't understand how they work. And he likes the idea of saying, I'll slap a tariff on you and then you beg me and make a deal and you come and kiss the ring and okay, so that's just, you know, I mean, the things that experts. Let me just defend the experts, that the, the thing that the experts warned would happen if you did, did all this stuff is happening, all right? I mean, yeah, inflation is cl. Climbing again. Job, job growth is slowing. Unemployment and inflation are both up. I still think in my world, at tolerable levels. But they're going the wrong direction. You know, he's just, he doesn't, he has no learning curve. But when it comes to Congress and this power, this is not new with Trump. Congress has offloaded all difficult things to the executive branch for decades now. I mean, the, the war, the whole issue of war powers. Right. The author is that, I mean, could Trump, when Trump bombed Iran, I was one of the few people, for one of the few times in my life, I said, you know, I have a pretty expansive view of Article 2 and the commander chief power. And I'm not sure that just lets you say, today I'm gonna bomb Iran. I mean, normally you do it, you, you go to the Security Council or you invoke Article 50, you do something that at least puts a fig leaf on this. You can't just say, well, today I've just decided is the right day to bomb Iran. But Congress doesn't want that power, Charlie. I mean, even in the 90s when they were talking about really strengthening, you know, fixing, because I think the War Powers act is probably unconstitutional, to be honest with you. But you could fix it. You could say, look, we're not going to do these shop these shoddy AUMFs and these kind of make believe, you know, Congress doesn't want the power. I mean, you know, they don't want responsibility.

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, they don't want the responsibility. They may like the trappings of power, but they don't want the actual responsibility. Okay, so one last thing. Clearly, I mean, this is. I don't know whether we consider this a joke or not, but you saw that, you posted on this. Donald Trump is really obsessed with getting the Nobel Peace Prize, isn't he? I mean, he went through a rift where he said, I solved this conflict. I solved this conflict. I solved this. And I think you post something like, you know, don't laugh because his supporters are actually believing it. I don't know. But I mean, it is interesting. This is one of the ideas that is stuck in his head that he wants the Nobel Prize. I'm gonna go out on a limb and bet that the, the folks that hand out the Nobel Prize are not going to cave into him. They are not going to give him this.

[Tom Nichols]

I don't think the guys in Oslo are sitting there saying, well, we better make a deal with Donald Trump. You know, I mean, he, and again, he has no notion that because he is a goldfish and he, and he darts from thing to thing. He doesn't understand that bombing Iran and then, you know, and telling Netanyahu, go ahead and finish the job, you know, and, and telling Putin that he has 50 days to do whatever the hell he wants, you know, doesn't. That those things don't factor well into. Well, I brokered an agreement in Africa. And the other thing is that he doesn't understand that America being involved in disputes and being a diplomatic kind of good faith partner in these things is normal. That's what, that's how it's supposed to work. You don't get the Nobel Prize as a superpower for just showing up to work every day. I think it just sticks in his cross. And I, I come back to this. I know that there are other reports out there that Trump did not run because Obama humiliated him. I think he ran because Obama humiliated him.

[Charlie Sykes]

Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't.

[Tom Nichols]

And he. Obama has a Nobel Prize and he has to have one. This is how his mind works. Works. You know, I have to have these merit badges. I have to have, you know, other guys have trophy wives. I have to have a trophy wife. Other guys have, you know, their names on sky. I have to put my name on one.

[Charlie Sykes]

He.

[Tom Nichols]

Everything about him. And this is something you and I have talked about. And it's something I will never understand about his supporters. They think of him as very confident and manly. To me, everything that comes out of him is very childlike and insecure.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yes. You know, he's a man, baby.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. You know, he's like that kid at the, at the school, you know, auditorium, get together, where he's watching all the other kids get a trophy, and he's thinking, I, where's, you know, I, I, where's my letter? Well, you weren't on any of the teams. Yeah, but I, you know, Trump's the kind of guy that would, if he in high school, would buy. I mean, I just think he's that kind of guy. I'd say, well, I didn't let her or anything, but I'm just gonna buy the sweater and stick one on there because I deserve it too. He's.

[Charlie Sykes]

Wait, reach, you know, I mean, if, if we found out that he did, I mean, when he was, well, the.

[Tom Nichols]

Fake Time magazine covering.

[Charlie Sykes]

Right. Example.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Sykes]

He, he didn't get on Time magazine cover, so he just made up a Time magazine cover, hung it on his wall on brand for this guy. All right, is there anything that we're missing? Anything we haven't talked about? We've managed to get through virtually the entire podcast without mentioning Sydney Sweeney because.

[Tom Nichols]

Other people, you know, we, we were going to leave this one in the green room.

[Charlie Sykes]

Don't. Go ahead, do it.

[Tom Nichols]

Charlie. I don't know. You know, I am, Look, I am 64 years old. I think I am well plugged into the popular culture, but I admit that I don't know who Sydney Sweeney is or why she's famous. I don't get it. I, I finally know that she exists, and I looked her up and apparently she's an actress and. Okay, but to me, every time I saw this stuff about. I like to. It's just gone right past me. And I didn't understand why she or her endowments were an issue. And I, I still don't. You had to explain it to me just before we started this podcast.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, and no, the pun about genes is not a sign of support for white supremacy, eugenics, or Nazis. And if you, if someone in your circle will argue that it is, you probably ought to think your life choices. So, anyway, but there's your assignment for the weekend. You can spend your time learning more about Sydney Sweeney, which, again, is important. Tom Nichols.

[Tom Nichols]

Thanks, Charlie.

[Charlie Sykes]

You know what? We all need a break from all of this. Tom. Thanks. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. We're going to continue to do this until everybody absolutely understands that we are not the crazy ones.

[Joe]

Hi, this is Joe from Vanta. In today's digital world, compliance regulations are changing constantly, and earning customer trust has never mattered more Vanta helps companies get compliant fast and stay secure with the most advanced AI, automation and continuous monitoring out there. So whether you're a startup going for your first SoC2 or ISO 27001 or a growing enterprise managing vendor risk, Vanta makes it quick, easy and scalable. And I'm not just saying that because I work here. Get [e-mail].

[Charlie Sykes]

Acast powers the world's best podcasts.

[Tom Nichols]

Here's a show that we recommend.

[Shopify]

Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where we make fun of everything but most importantly ourselves. I'm Paige desorbo. I'm Hannah Burner. Welcome to the squad. Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time. But of course we can't be managed, so we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling. We will make fun of pop culture news. We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charlie Sykes]

Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.

[Tom Nichols]

Acast.com.