Tony Gilroy: Yes, Andor Does Rhyme with Our Political Moment

Summary

Podcast Summary: To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Episode: Tony Gilroy: Yes, Andor Does Rhyme with Our Political Moment
Release Date: August 12, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of To The Contrary, host Charlie Sykes engages in an in-depth conversation with Tony Gilroy, the creator and showrunner of the critically acclaimed series Andor. The discussion delves into the intricate connections between the narrative of Andor and contemporary political climates, exploring themes of authoritarianism, resistance, and the erosion of truth in modern society.

Political Parallels and Intentions

[02:24 – 07:55]
Charlie Sykes opens the dialogue by referencing a pivotal scene from Andor, highlighting Tony Gilroy’s assertion that the series was not directly inspired by current headlines or specific political events. Sykes points out, however, that viewers have drawn parallels between the show’s depiction of authoritarian regimes and real-world political scenarios, such as those seen during the Trump administration.

Notable Quote:
Tony Gilroy emphasizes the historical foundations of Andor:
"There are historical comps for everything that happens in the show." [03:01]

Historical Context and Relevance

[07:55 – 12:49]
The conversation shifts to the historical accuracy and relevance of Andor. Gilroy discusses how the show mirrors historical patterns of tyranny and rebellion, suggesting that while technology has evolved, the fundamental tactics of propaganda and repression remain consistent through time. This historical lens provides a framework for understanding the series' resonance with contemporary audiences.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy reflects on historical cycles:
"The playbook has not changed. It's like a karaoke, a fascist karaoke." [10:42]

Character Development and Moral Complexity

[22:08 – 24:02]
Sykes and Gilroy delve into the moral complexities of characters within Andor, specifically focusing on Cyril Karn and Dedra Meero. These characters embody the functionaries of an authoritarian regime, performing heinous acts out of a sense of duty rather than ideological conviction. Gilroy explains that their actions stem from personal fears and experiences that drive them to become the very authority they once feared.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy discusses character motivations:
"One of the ways to not be afraid is to become the monster that you fear." [23:47]

The Banality of Evil

[16:58 – 19:26]
The episode explores the concept of the "banality of evil" as portrayed in Andor. Gilroy draws inspiration from historical events like the Wannsee Conference, where ordinary individuals discuss and plan atrocities in a detached, business-like manner. This portrayal serves as a stark reminder of how evil can manifest through routine actions devoid of moral contemplation.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on dramatizing evil:
"The idea of the destruction of an entire civilization over a PowerPoint lunch... the banality of evil." [16:58]

Resonance with Current Events

[25:29 – 31:02]
Sykes raises points about Andor's scenes reflecting real-world events, such as the use of the term "genocide" in relation to contemporary conflicts like Gaza. Gilroy acknowledges the unintended parallels but maintains that the series was crafted with historical authenticity rather than specific political commentary. The discussion underscores the cyclical nature of authoritarianism and the persistent challenges in resisting such regimes.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on unintended parallels:
"If it rings in their ears, let it ring in their ears." [28:21]

Technology and Future Threats

[31:02 – 34:40]
The conversation takes a speculative turn as Gilroy expresses concerns about the future impact of technology and artificial intelligence. He warns of a "tech Reich," where technological advancements could lead to unprecedented forms of control and surveillance, surpassing the threats posed by contemporary political figures. This segment highlights the importance of addressing technological ethics to prevent potential dystopian outcomes.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on technological threats:
"Our brothers and sisters on the tech side are making a tech Reich... far more dangerous and far more intractable than anything." [33:06]

Musical Elements and Cultural Impact

[34:40 – 36:38]
Sykes shifts focus to the cultural aspects of Andor, particularly the song "We Are the Gore." Gilroy explains the creative decision to use a fabricated language influenced by Ukrainian sounds, aiming to add an authentic yet fictional flavor to the series. The conversation also touches upon the show’s recognition in award nominations, emphasizing the importance of music in conveying the series' themes.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on the song's language:
"Everybody hears something different in there. It's a language we made up so that it would come out of the French mouth." [35:20]

Moral Dilemmas and Revolutionary Leadership

[37:30 – 39:56]
The discussion returns to the moral complexities within Andor, particularly focusing on characters like Luthen who embody morally compromised individuals within the resistance. Gilroy articulates his interest in portraying the multifaceted nature of rebellion, where noble intentions often clash with morally ambiguous actions. This segment underscores the intricate balance between maintaining ethical standards and the harsh realities of revolutionary change.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on revolutionary characters:
"I want to humanize my fascists and the imperial characters... as well as the leaders of the rebellion." [38:00]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[40:41 – 42:03]
As the episode concludes, Sykes and Gilroy reflect on the significance of Andor as a standalone series within the Star Wars universe. Gilroy emphasizes that while Andor is a prequel, it is crafted to be accessible to both Star Wars aficionados and newcomers alike. The conversation wraps up with mutual expressions of admiration and anticipation for future developments.

Notable Quote:
Gilroy on accessibility:
"Nothing. You don't have to know anything about Star Wars to watch Andor." [40:56]

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Key Takeaways

• Historical Authenticity: Andor draws heavily from historical events and patterns of authoritarianism, making it relevant to contemporary societal issues.

• Moral Complexity: Characters in Andor are portrayed with deep moral ambiguities, highlighting the challenging ethical landscapes within resistance movements.

• Technological Concerns: The series raises alarms about the potential dangers of unchecked technological advancements and their role in modern authoritarianism.

• Cultural Impact: The show's music and language design contribute significantly to its immersive storytelling and emotional depth.

• Accessibility: Andor is positioned as a narrative that transcends the Star Wars franchise, appealing to a broad audience through its universal themes and standalone story.

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This episode offers listeners a profound exploration of how fiction mirrors reality, urging a reflection on the societal structures and personal choices that shape our world. Tony Gilroy's insights provide a nuanced understanding of Andor's place within both the Star Wars canon and the larger discourse on power, truth, and resistance.

Transcript

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[Charlie]

If you watched the series andor earlier this year, you remember this scene.

[Tony Gilroy]

I believe we are in crisis.

[Charlie]

What are they doing?

[Tony Gilroy]

The distance between what is said.

[Charlie]

Shut it down.

[Tony Gilroy]

And what is known to be true has become an abyss.

It's locked. Why is it locked?

It's supposed to be.

It hasn't been locked all year.

We know. We fixed it.

[Charlie]

What?

[Tony Gilroy]

We checked the protocol.

Open it.

You need the sequence key.

So let's have it. We took it up to the security office yesterday.

Of all the things at risk, the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away, when it is ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever monster screams the.

[Charlie]

Loudest Andor has been nominated for. I think in historically high 14 Emmys and continues to be at the focus of a lot of debate that despite the showrunner creator Tony Gilroy's insistence, this was not ripped from the headlines. It was not consciously intended to be political. A lot of people in the resistance are citing it. At the no Kings rally in June, you might have seen a lot of the signs, the andor related signs saying stop plagiarizing andor or I have friends everywhere and joining me and we're gonna do a little bit something different. Today on the to the Contrary podcast, I am joined by the creator and showrunner of Andor, Tony Gilroy. Thanks for joining me, Tony. I appreciate it.

[Tony Gilroy]

Thanks for having me.

[Charlie]

All right, so let's, let's talk about this. Earlier this year, you sat down with Stephen Colbert. We can talk about that in a moment. And made the point that, that, that despite some of the political overtones and undertones of this show, it is not ripped from the headlines. It is, you know, people may be drawing eerie, you know, similarities with, with what's happening in the Trump administration, but you did not set out to make a political show. So talk to me about that.

[Tony Gilroy]

Well, you know, when we were out selling the show, we started selling the show, I don't know, about six, eight months ago. And, you know, we had a. We had a lot of these questions the first season about the, the relevancy of the show and the political cast of it. And it makes everybody nervous to have a show that treads very closely to what's going on. And we had a legitimate provenance for the show, which is that it really, you can cite, you can anecdote every plot turn in the story with something historical along the way. There are historical comps for everything that happens in the show. And so we were very prudent about doing that and very careful about how we spoke about the show. When we came around the second time, Diego and I, about Diego Luna and I, about eight months ago, we started doing long lead press. We started getting some very tough questions about how the show was lining up with events. And we both stepped back for a moment and realized that two things. One, we didn't want to violate our own personal opinions and, and our own beliefs. And we didn't want to be. We didn't want to hide. We didn't want to be shy. We didn't want to force any of the other people in the cast to say anything they didn't want to say. And we had a very, we didn't also didn't want to unnecessarily tip over Disney in any way. You know, like why, why, why, why add another bonfire to their, to their list of. To their list of travails? And so we legitimately, in the beginning, and it's honest, we, we. The show was really designed around historical. The historical fascist playbook, the historical rebellion playbook. These are. There's very new. Very little that's new other than the technology. As you look through history, as time has gone on, as we've been out on the road, as the show has been accepted, as the politics on the news, as the things we're seeing every day have grown more extreme, it gets harder and harder not to appreciate the number of people that find resonance in the show. And it became much more difficult not to talk about it in a way that, that, that we all really believe. I think I'm speaking for myself and Diego at this point, really believe in it. And I can talk specifically about all kinds of different things in the show and where they come from. But we have been shocked when they dragged Senator Padilla out of the. The ICE meeting. We were broadcasting, I think, that week, the Gorman senator being pulled from the Senate.

[Charlie]

Right.

[Tony Gilroy]

And we were like, what. We were really. We ourselves have been shocked at the rhyming.

[Charlie]

Well, this is the rhyming of all of this, is to watch how an authoritarian fascist regime comes to power, how it enhances its power, how it uses lies and propaganda and the nature of the resistance and the moral questions of the resistance. And there were so many parallels, like, for example, that moment where you see the in andor. Where the senators begin to push back against the emperor and they begin arresting them. And it was. So I wanted to bounce this off of you because I went back and I watched your interview earlier where you talked about this is not the headlines, and you made the point that if you drop back anytime in the last 4,000 years or 6,000 years of human history, you see this story, this pattern of tyranny and resistance, authoritarianism and the pushback. And so while people. While you say on one level this is not a political critique of the Trump era, in many ways, it becomes intensely relevant because you are putting it in this context that what is happening now is part of this pattern that we've seen before and we'll probably see again. And as you mentioned, the only thing that's really different is the technology, because the techniques of propaganda, the techniques of repression are. Are the same. And so as you go through all of this, yes, there are different parts of history that you touch On. But we're part of that history now, too, aren't we? And that's why it resonates so, so powerfully right now.

[Tony Gilroy]

No, I agree. I mean, I. I think we're probably both around the same age. I think. I think a few years ago, I thought I'd seen enough history. I thought I'd seen, you know, I'd grown up to Vietnam, the civil rights movement, all the assassinations. I'd watched the Kennedy assassination, you know, Jack Ruby kill OSWALD on my TV with my father. Vietnam, 9, 11, Iran, Iraq. I mean, I kind of thought Covid, I thought, well, that's enough history. But history just. History just comes. And the show is about history overwhelming a bunch of people, you know, overwhelming ordinary people. That was the, you know, the original sort of, you know, the basic. The basic building block of the show was let's go. Let's get out of the Star wars restaurant and let's get back in the Star wars kitchen. Let's go back where the. Where the people are working, and let's see what happens when history comes and kicks their door down. I had no idea that history would be kicking our doors down that hard. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question.

[Charlie]

No, you are.

[Tony Gilroy]

I think if you took this show and you. There was a way to play it in, In. In, I don't know what the. I'm guessing at the prime year 1928 for. For Mussolini in Italy, and you put it on Italian television, they'd freak out. They'd go, oh, my God. The same shit's happening here. The playbook. The playbook has not changed. It's. It's. It's like a karaoke, a fascist karaoke. And they just come in and it's all the same, all the same beats. Take over the press, beat down the institutions of justice, nationalize the industries, which in this case, now, you could argue that, you know, you could argue that Trump's nationalizing the industries by blackmailing them in a way. I mean, they're being nationalized by influence, not by, if not by actual ownership. All these basic first things happen.

[Charlie]

And.

[Tony Gilroy]

Then we all know where the story goes after that.

[Charlie]

And yet we do have a failure of imagination, don't we? We always think that that happened in the past, and we can't imagine, well, surely it's not going to happen again, or he wouldn't do this or this. And I think this is one of the powers of these stories is it says, okay, let's actually imagine, remind ourselves what a fascist Authoritarian dictatorship looks like how it comes about. And then to see that particular rhyme. Have you been surprised by the way. The one thing that I think has been the most surprising to a lot of folks has been the willingness of some of these institutions to cave in. Your, your show and or is about resistance. We're living through a period and where we're looking around going where is the rest of the resistance? I mean there are the rallies, but you're seeing one company after another. I mean last week did you see Tim Cook from Apple go in and go into the Oval Office and give, give Donald Trump this gold shitty thing. Just, I mean it's like bribe in most powerful people in the world bowing their knee. Have you been surprised by the willingness of these institutions to cave in and surrender?

[Tony Gilroy]

Yeah, I mean beyond, I don't have a word beyond incredulity. There's no, I have no way to describe the dissonance that's just been ringing in my ears for, for, for quite a while. I can't. My wife and I, she still watches a lot of news and I really had to stop because I try to stay informed. I try to know what's going on. But at the same time just the basic conversation seems normalizing to me in a way. It is so outrageous. It's so insane what's happened. It's so, it's so antithetical to everything that I was, that I was in an idealized way brought up to be an American democracy child. You know, and the, the cult of that and the belief system of that and, and you know, I'm a post war democracy zealot. You know, I was raised that way. It's, I don't. And, and, and there was never anything, it was always presented to me in a way that was very strong and very tough and I'm trying to find a way. I do resigned. I. Look, you can, I've been talking about this for a couple months now and, and one of the things that I found every time anybody's tried to push the show into an ideological framework, I find myself a little bit resistant because I don't, I don't think there's anybody in the rebellion in the show who's advocating for a tax structure or for, you know, the social safe, social safety net or arguing for health care or, or distribution of wealth. They're literally talking about we're being oppressed and crushed and controlled. It's, it's a moral issue, it's a decency issue. It's a, it's a It has. It's a non ideological. It seems we have a long way to go before we can ever even get back to an ideological conversation. For me, it seems like we've gone. I totally so far. We're so far away from the place that we could even have a normal political conversation about what would be good policy, because we are just damned at the moment. I do not understand. No, Charlie. I don't understand what Tim Cook is doing there. I don't understand what. What, what Harvard's doing. I don't understand what the law firms are doing. I don't understand why anybody, Anybody who has any possible resource where they know that they know they're going to be okay, you know you're going to eat, you know you're going to be okay. Why that? Why you would. Why you would sacrifice your personal moral code in front of your neighbors, your family, your friends in public, your children. How you would debase yourself that way and know you have to live with it. I don't get it.

[Charlie]

And we live through this. So I want to go back to the speech that we played at the beginning, the Mon Mothma speech, which was really, you know, I think when it first aired, it was. People were just electrified by it because it felt so in the moment. But I will tell you that the scene that got me the most, that had the most power for me, was the one where you've acknowledged this kind of a nod to the Wancy Conference of 1942, where the Germans sat around and they came up with a final solution. And in Andor, you have this basically a business lunch where they talk about how they're going to wipe out the people of Gore. And, and it's very sort of matter of fact, and they go through the various options. And I think part of it is just the casualness and the routine nature that you captured there of the most profound evil. And I just wanted to get your.

[Tony Gilroy]

As you.

[Charlie]

As you were putting that together, were you thinking of portraying the banality of evil? That we think of evil as being something, you know, obvious, but I mean, it was. They. They're hatching, you know, genocide at a business lunch.

[Tony Gilroy]

I mean, the, The Vonsi Conference, they made two films about it, a very good one that Frank Pearson made that I saw years ago, that obviously affected me very strongly. And yeah, I was super consciously wanting to do the Vonsi Conference. I wanted to do that. The idea of the destruction of. Of, in this case, an entire planet, an entire civilization, over a PowerPoint lunch with some nice canapes and A quiet, well warmed room. Yeah. The banality of evil in that sense, my job as a dramatist is, is, has some unique aspects to it. Number one, I don't have to tell the truth. I don't have to. I can come in and interview you and I can say, hey, tell me what you, you know, I can say, tell me what you think I want to hear. I can say, tell me what should be true or give me a composite in the same way I'm liberated when I come to tell a story like that. I don't have to think about the banality of evil in some grand Hannah Arendt kind of collegiate way. Everything for me is the characters and who are the people in that room that are, with, that are with Ben Mendelsohn when he's giving that speech. And they're all, they're all, they're all cogs in the machine. Like the cogs we just. Trump is trying to put together. Man, what's my, what's going to happen in my parking space? What kind of office am I going to have when I come back to what's the budget I'm going to get? You know, how many, how many people on my staff am I going to be able to hang on to? Am I going to get invited to Krennic's party? I mean, it's literally the careerism and the, I don't know. There needs to be some other, There needs to be some new term for greed that has to do with, with, we need a new, we need a new term for greed. The Germans probably have it. We need a term for greed that, that gets to the small mindedness that goes into these decisions. And, and, and I just, I mean, you could go back and I've only discovered this from doing things like this, talking about this show and some other shows that I've worked on about why people do things when they know they're wrong.

[Charlie]

Yes.

[Tony Gilroy]

And I started, I think, you know, I did this film, Michael Clayton, and I was very angry when I was writing that movie. I was extremely angry about the invasion of Iraq. I was just absolutely apoplectic about it. And I was looking for a place to put. And I was angry at the people that had helped make it happen, to be honest with you. There were some people, you could understand their motivations. You could understand why Dick Cheney and Gaddafi and Bush, you could sort of see what their reasons were. But the other people that went along with it, whether it was the New York Times or the Christian Coalition or whatever it was that helped Bake that cake. I was so angry that I put a lot of that into Michael Clayton and in that mov. In that film, I'm struggling with trying to figure out why people who know better, who don't have to, will do the wrong thing when they know it's wrong. And I. I didn't. I didn't. It didn't answer it for me. I came away. I'm still. I'm sitting here right now just wondering. You're talking about Tim Cook. Like, why. Why would you. Why would you do that? Why. Why does. Why are all these. Why does Marco Rubio go run around the world guy who shamed him in the worst way possible? How does Ted Cruz face. I mean, where it's not appetite for.

[Charlie]

Self humiliation is extraordinary to me.

[Tony Gilroy]

Manhood. No. You could. I mean, you want to make it about manhood. You want to say why you just don't have the balls to do any. But it's not that it's much more. It's. It's so much more than that. And so I'm struggling with that idea on a personal level for characters all the way through. And it, you know, so my Nazis, my. My. My imperial, The ISB and the people that I care. Characters that I carry there, I have to inhabit them. I have to be empathetic with them. I have to live through them. And, you know.

[Charlie]

Well, let's talk about them because. And I want to get back to some of the other stuff, but, you know, you have the, you know, two characters, you know, Cyril Karn and Deidre Miro, who are the functionaries. They. They think they're just doing their duty. They are, you know, and they're prepared to do these. These awful things and to us. And ultimately they're destroyed. Right. They give everything in service of this fascist empire, but they. They did it out of duty. I mean, what. What were you. What.

[Tony Gilroy]

What's your.

[Charlie]

What's your thought about them?

[Tony Gilroy]

Those characters who created them, I think they come from. I think they come from very different places and arrive at the same thing. I think. I think Cyril is very much a romantic. I really think he's a very romantic character with a very, very loud and very operatic internal monologue that's running all the time. I think he's a fantasist, and I think he's a romantic. And.

[Charlie]

And I think that fabulous mother.

[Tony Gilroy]

Yeah. And is. You know, and, and, and. But I will say they have a unifying thing that I will tell. And then Dedra is raised in. What did she say? An imperial kinder block. So she's been a. She's been. You know, she's been a zealot for the state. It's. It's the authority figure that she's known her whole life long. So she's. Her allegiance is. Is. Is to that. But I think they share something in common, and I think it's a very. I mean, I think there's a geopolitical aspect to it, too, that, you know, oftentimes people that are terrified, children that are terrified grow up to be the thing that scared them the most. What's. One of the ways to not be afraid is to become the monster that you fear. So if you're Cyril Karn and you fear chaos and your mother creates an emotional chaos for you all the time and everything, well, my God, order is, you know, I'll be a cop. I'll put a uniform on. I'll get it right. I'll do everything. I'll play by the rules. I think for Dedra, the chaos of having her parents ripped away when she's three years old, and God knows what an imperial kinder block is really like. I think, again, the same thing. Why don't I become the thing that scares me most, which is the authority.

[Charlie]

Interesting.

[Tony Gilroy]

You know, I come in that way, and I have to love them. You know, I have to love all these characters as I. As. As we make them. There's no. No good drama without doing that.

[Charlie]

So let's go back to this. The. The speech which was. I don't. I mean, obviously the electrifying speech by Mon Mothma, who says, you know, I believe we're in a crisis. The distance between what is said and what is known to be true has become an abyss. That felt so very, very much on the nose. And then, of course, she talks about. She said, when truth comes out, when we let it slip away. I'm sorry, when truth leaves us, when we let it slip away, when it is r hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest. I mean, that was one of the most powerful moments in. In the entire series.

[Tony Gilroy]

Well, that's Dan Gilroy as well. My brother worked on that show, myself, Genevieve, delivering it. Look, I think it goes back to what we were discussing earlier. I think that the moment the truth leaves, that is the starter's pistol on the conversation. Never being ideological again, but being moral. I think if you can't have an object of truth, if you can't have some basis, if you can't say these are the labor statistics, and you can't say these are the votes, you can't say this is, this actually happened. Then you're into a mirror world where ideology becomes a luxury.

[Charlie]

Okay, so you, earlier this year you were saying that this show was not taken from the headlines and yet you're looping it back because those are the headlines of the last week.

[Tony Gilroy]

I know, I mean I, the, I'm not lying when I'm saying that we did not build, we did not build the show. Looking at the newspaper, I did not have to build. So I knew I wanted to have an immigration moment. I knew I wanted to have a, I knew I wanted to have the, the Vonsi convention. I knew I wanted to have a false flag takedown of a very large and propaganda be brought into to play militarily. I knew I had a whole bunch of things that I knew how to, I wanted to do. And there was no shortage of places for me to draw on from my amateur historical reading over the last 40 years. You know, yeah, I, George Lucas started this when he began and I mean there's much about Star wars that was anti Vietnam and very political in the beginning. The template is there. This is the tranche of history that I was given to curate is very specifically a five year period where, you know, this fascist authoritarian power is going to really make every move it can to consolidate all the way to the Death Star. It's going to finally close down the last, the last bit of daylight. And this is about people resisting that. So if, as I'm remembering now, as we were leading, as the show was finishing, we were finishing the show, we had to hold onto it for quite a while. We were finishing it early and we could have finished. The question was, wow, what's going to happen in the election and how might that affect the release of the show? And imagine if, imagine if the election had gone the other way, what kind of conversations would we be having about this? Would I look so people would say, wow, show's really smart. Historically, very interesting. I think people would still really appreciate the show on a dramatic, on an adventure level. I think there's all kinds of reasons to enjoy the show, but it wouldn't have this extra dimension. Joe, who's responsible?

[Charlie]

Yeah, well, so very briefly so, because she's talking about genocide in the speech, there were a lot of people who immediately went to what was happening in Gaza. Was that the intention, how did you react to that, that particular relevance? I mean, obviously, as you just pointed out, many of the things that happened earlier, but I mean, you had put this together earlier, you know, you would. You used the word genocide at a time when the word genocide was incredibly radioactive. Was it?

[Tony Gilroy]

I mean, someone should really. It'd be, I, I don't want to do it. I don't have time to do it. But someone should. Someone should do a. It would be really interesting to follow how that conversation developed, because obviously the show was written and the episode was written prior to or contemporaneously with the beginnings of Hamas coming across the border. But the ramifications of it and how it was going to lead and what it was going to become were unknown at the time that the show was being written. So I think it was probably. It couldn't have been. The word was not put in there in direct reference to Israel at that moment. Watching people limbo ever lower over the last few years and watching, watching the ease of acceptance of us being able to use that word in relation to Israel is just fascinating. And I can't say that I can't. It wasn't how it was written. Does it bother me that it's in there now? No, it doesn't bother me at all that it's in there now. Does it bother me that people make the parallel and if it rings in their ears, let it ring in their ears? I'm into it at this point. Does it come from, as I said before, this Catherine Wheel, this repeating wash and repeat horror show of history that we have? It's just.

[Charlie]

This is. Yeah. And again, it is stunning how little we have learned. And this is the dilemma that a lot of us face. Because, you know, as this has played out, you know, those of us of a certain age will say, well, now I understand the 1930s better than I did before. Now I understand how some of these things happen. And yet there's also that voice in your head saying, okay, everything's not Hitler. You know, every. What is that? The. You know, the line that the first person that introduces Hitler into the argument has lost? And yet the historical parallels are so powerful. This did happen. Like just today, I posted on X a front page of a British newspaper about when Neville Chamberlain was going to meet with Adolf Hitler in Munich in peace, on our time. And I thought, I'm just posting this for no reason particular, of course, as Donald Trump is about to go to Alaska to surrender Ukraine to Vladimir Putin. He how do you understand the events of the day without understanding the historical context? And yet the historical context, sometimes you're accused of being over the top, I think. You know what I mean?

[Tony Gilroy]

Here Absolutely. And, and, and then you have to add. I mean, I think there's two other dimensions that have to be added to this. I'm really as worried as I am about, about all the things that we're talking about that are happening that are just terrifying and, and, and, and the lack of resistance and the silence and the, the muffled outcry about what's going on and the, the difficulty in conjuring a scenario where people actually are going to get their. Together and go out and, and, and, and, and make noise about this. Put that aside. I'm, I, I legitimately feel that, you know, our, our brothers and sisters on the, on the tech side are making a tech Reich. I mean, I think that they are building a side hustle that is far, potentially far more dangerous and far more intractable than anything. I mean, Trump will die right? At some point, Trump will die right? And, but AI is going nowhere and tech's going nowhere and the inroads that they're making now and the loosening of the, of the, the listening of the monitoring and the. Well, I mean, just, I mean, if you're not going to make Covid vaccines, how the fuck are you going to ever watch what's going on with AI? I mean, the lack of rationality and just basic intelligence about how to take care of business and take care of the people that you're responsible for. I mean, so I'm really worried that something else is going on. And the idea that Palantir and, and, and she, and, and, and you know, using China as a, as a, you know, a perfect experimental model for AI. And I mean, I think there's, and I. Things that probably a few years ago would have sounded like it was time to, you know, get me a, a designated driver to go home. You know, like, man, I, I really feel this shit's legit at this point. Worried about that.

[Charlie]

Oh, I, I agree. I, in fact, I was telling my wife the other day, you know, we're talking about AI, and I said, you know, the, the, the one flaw of Blade Runner is that in the future the, it's going to be the replicants who will be in charge and then they will have a test to determine whether or not you are human. And it will take them about five seconds to determine, you know, who is human as opposed to he who is, who is a replicant. I mean, and I think that this is where our imaginations fall short of what the Tech Reich could be like.

[Tony Gilroy]

I don't know, the leader that I could put in the White House that I feel could be smart enough and enough of an imaginative, strong leader who could actually try to make a cogent, intelligent plan. And it has to be a global plan for how we're going to do this. And we're as far away from that as we could ever be.

[Narrator]

You get to.

[Tony Gilroy]

We're going to build a fricking ballroom and we're going to like, I mean, all the monkey business that's going on is that they're just, they're just smart enough to be awful and to be horrible and to be fascist, but they don't have any of the game to keep the infrastructure that they're going to need beneath them running to run anything. And as you said before, what happens to, what happens to, what happens to all the low level fascists when, when things start to go sideways? Well, they get eaten first. They get eaten, too. They all get chewed up in the same machine. So this is a very, you know, this is not a happy Sunday morning.

[Charlie]

No, no, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not. So let's talk a little bit about. Oh, by the way, I have to ask you this because among the, the, the Emmy nominations, you've gotten the, the original for the, for the score. I mean, sorry. For the song We Are the Gore. I remember the moment I was sitting like in my, in my basement watching this for the first time. And you know, when the, when they, when they sing We Are Gore and, and I thought, oh, my God, they sound. Okay. What would you say if I said they sounded like the language sounded Ukrainian to me?

[Tony Gilroy]

You know what? Everybody hears something different in there. It's a language. We, we hired all French actors to make. All those actors are French. All our principles that we brought them because we wanted to have a, we wanted to have a flavor to it. We wanted to have them have an identity. But we made up the language so that it would come out of the French mouth. Well, because they really had to learn a lot of dialogue and learn a lot of stuff to say, and they could actually got to the point where they could almost improv in it. But at the same time, we didn't want to have it be French at all. We didn't want to have anybody in France going like something wrong with my television. So I've heard people say, yeah, I've heard five or six different people. It sounded like something else, which is very satisfying. I'm. You are talking about my, my. That is my favorite thing. That's happened that I've been nominated as a songwriter for an Emmy. So, yeah, really, I don't really. I don't really get that hopeful about or eager about awards, but that's what I really want to win. Charlie, I don't think I'm gonna. I think it's. I think Adam Sandler is probably gonna win, but I really want that award. So anybody who's a voter out there listening, like, check my ballot.

[Charlie]

Well, I have to tell you, I was re listening to it before we came on, and I just got goosebumps just. Just listening to all of that.

[Tony Gilroy]

So Nick, Del and I worked really hard on that. It's really cool.

[Charlie]

Oh, it is wonderful. So Andor is about authoritarianism and fascism. It's also about resistance. And you really go into the moral complexity of the resistance because you have different characters who approach the resistance in different ways, from Mon Mothma to the character, the brilliant character, Luthen, who is morally compromised. And it's kind of the dark side of this that you can. In order to fight the monster, sometimes you need to become the monster. There's a little bit of. Did you intend that as kind of a cautionary note that all revolutions, you know, you might be, you know, thinking that you're fighting for great principles, but sometimes you. You have to abandon those principles. I mean, he's. He's a morally complex, morally challenged character.

[Tony Gilroy]

Two things. One, in the same way that I want to tell every possible story I can about authoritarianism and fascism, I also want to. I want to try to get in without, you know, without, you know, without boring anybody or shoehorning or anything. I want to try to get in legitimately as many aspects of rebellion and revolution that have happened over the last 4,000 years and good and bad. In the same way that I want to humanize my. My fascists and the imperial characters, I also. I need to humanize and scuff up, you know, the leaders of the rebellion in the same way Lutheran Rail, Stellan Skarsgard plays him. He's really. In revolutionary terms, he's a classic accelerationist. That's his attitude. Need to make things worse, really bad. Make people suffer so that people rise up. And, you know, I mean, you could pick all kinds of revolutionary leaders throughout history who've done that. I mean, you go back through MA and just go all the way back. It's a very. You know, it's a very. It's very. But there are always a great variety of other people who are involved in a rebellion who come at it from a humanistic side or don't have the stomach for that or think that that's inefficient. And so I want to have, I mean I, I, I, I realized five years ago that I was going to give, be given an opportunity to do something that going to be given the opportunity to do again. I could have five years, 24 hours a show with great actors, with a lot of money, we spent a lot of money, we put a lot of money on a screen, but with a really well funded show. And I could do what I hoped would be a definitive, dramatic look at rebellion and authoritarianism. And I want to get as much of it in there as I possibly can. So, you know, he, he's very self aware of that character. He understands what he's doing and he makes a very big speech where he very clearly states that he is self sacrificing. And, and he, he pretty much in the show, he, he walks it and talks it. He, he lives it. He, he really, he, he lives by his code. He doesn't violate himself. He has doubts, but he doesn't violate himself.

[Charlie]

There are so many extraordinary characters and moments and that is certainly one of them.

[Tony Gilroy]

Yeah. No, so I, I have a big responsibility that I have to entertain you. And I mean, I hope anybody who's listening to this, who hasn't watched the show doesn't think the show is some dry, like, oh no discourse. It's an adventure story. It's like a ripping yarn. But that's, that's my first responsibility is to, is to, is to keep you super interested and desperate to find out what happens next. But I do have a responsibility. This canvas, that moment in history that is free of the strings and shackles of current events and of journalism, I can swing away, but I want to get everything in that I possibly can.

[Charlie]

And it is wonderful if people haven't seen it. They really have to. And even if you're not into Star wars, this is a prequel and I mean that's obviously part of the Star wars thing, but I don't think you have to know the entire Star wars story to appreciate it.

[Tony Gilroy]

That's what we're trying to tell. Nothing. You don't have to know anything about Star wars to show.

[Charlie]

Exactly. Although I'm sure you've been told many, many times that watching Rogue One, after watching the two seasons of Endor, it seems like a completely new movie. I mean, I'd seen it several times in the past and it seemed completely new the way they connected. So congratulations on that.

[Tony Gilroy]

As well, Tony, thank you so much.

[Charlie]

And thank you for spending time with me. It is a wonderful thing. I told you before we started. As anyone who knows me knows, I was absolutely obsessively watching and talking about this when it was airing a radio.

[Tony Gilroy]

I was on my radar. I was hearing about it. Yep, I heard about it.

[Charlie]

It's real privilege for me to talk with you today and best of luck in the awards season. You deserve them.

[Tony Gilroy]

All right. Viva la causa, man. Good luck.

[Charlie]

All right, thank you. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. You know why we do this? Why we do this? Because more than ever we have to keep reminding ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.

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