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Charlie Sykes
I read the news today. Oh boy. Hey, congratulations making it through the month of February. I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. It was a very, very long month, but February's are always a long month, particularly for those of us who live in Wisconsin or any of you who have been on the Northeast. And of course, we had to endure President Trump's latest endless State of the Union address, which I believe has actually finally ended. We have an awful lot to talk about this week, including the question, have we actually gone to war? Are we about to go to war? Does anybody have any idea whatsoever? Stay tuned. Oh, and to go through all of this, to dive into this, our good friend the Professor, Tom Nichols, staff writer for the Atlantic. Tom, it's been too long. Thanks for coming back on.
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Tom Nichols
Yeah. Hey Charlie, it's really good to see you again.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay, I don't know where to start today. There's just. There's so much I want to talk about. Your piece about the crazy Trump ambassadors. The Atlantic has a rather disturbing story about Jasmine Crockett that I want to get into, but here's the word of a Cosmic question, what does it take these days? And I am referring, of course, both to the Epstein files, but also to the House Republican majority. Have you followed the story, the Tony Gonzalez story?
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Tom Nichols
Oh, yeah.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay. For people who are just catching up, and the context I'm trying to put this in is that there was once a time when if you were a member of Congress and it turned out that you had a lurid sexual affair with an aide who then committed suicide by setting herself on fire, that would be a big deal. That, that would be the kind of thing that members of your own caucus would say, you need to go, you need to resign, you need to drop out of your race, reelection. I'm talking about Tony Gonzalez, Republican Congressman from Texas. Mike Johnson kind of basically says, yeah, you know, nothing much to see there. They're not pushing him out. So, Tom, talk to me about that. What does it take to. Because again, used to be. And the text messages are lured. We're not gonna go into them. I know people want me to.
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Tom Nichols
Please don't.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, no, Mike Johnson. But Mike Johnson can't afford it, right? He's only got a two vote majority. So it doesn't matter what you do, your aide can actually set themselves on fire and kill themselves. And the Republicans in the House are gonna go, yeah, yeah, it's not that big a deal. We can't give up our majority or anything.
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Tom Nichols
Well, I think that's what it really shows, Charlie, is that these are folks who say we think the Democrats are so bad and that we have so internalized this narrative that the other party and anybody who disagrees with us really is the enemy, that, you know, this would be like retreating, you know, from, from, you know, Normandy or something that, you know, it doesn't matter what he does, it doesn't matter how horrifying the story is. We can't afford to lose a vote, you know, that could then endanger things we want. And that just says that to me. You know, our former party has become. What is it that Eisenhower once said that if you're not. That if a party doesn't have principles and stand for something, then it's nothing more than a conspiracy to take power?
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, pretty much.
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Tom Nichols
And I think that's. That's pretty much where we are saying, look, we want power, we want to do the things we want to do. Everyone else is illegitimate. No other Americans should have a voice. And if that mean. And we believe that so deeply, if that means that if one of our members, you know, is a horrible person who is shrugging off that the, the woman he had an affair with immolated herself, then so be it. And you know, we could extend this question because it's not just what does it take to resign from Congress? I mean, this is the death of shame. I mean, this is long gone. What does it take to get fired? I mean, how many stories about Kristi Noeman, Corey Lewandowski, do there have to be Cash Patel about? And Cash, well, you know, I mean, honestly, compared to what Lewandowski and Noam are doing, Patel seems almost like just an out of control frat boy, an embarrassment. He's, you know, he's a, he's a joke and he's making the FBI look really bad. These are two people that are basically, you know, carrying on at taxpayer expense. I mean, it's creepy.
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Charlie Sykes
The Kristi Noem Lewandowski story has been around for a long time, but there's new reporting on this, right? That makes it even more, are you kidding me? Right?
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Tom Nichols
Right. Yes. And again, you know, why doesn't Donald Trump fire anybody? Because then you're letting the libs win. You're giving a win to the media, you're giving a win to the elites. You know, instead of saying, listen, there has to be a kind of baseline of competence and decency. The FBI cannot become a goddamn joke, you know, the Department of Homeland Security, which I don't know, you know, I've said for years, shouldn't even exist, cannot just be a play pen, you know, for a couple of irresponsible goofs. It's all about, no, must never, must never admit a mistake, cannot retreat in the face of the enemy. And that is not politics.
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Charlie Sykes
That is a power that was guaranteed when Donald Trump was reelected. Right? I mean, he's a convicted felon. I mean, he's, you know, we were asking all of these things. All of these other sins are basically erased by the fact that it is Donald Trump in the White House. So, you know, who introduced that moment of shame? Who moved the over to window of what's acceptable? Okay, and in terms of this question of what does it take, we have the Epstein files, which continue to be amazing on two different levels. I think, number one, the degree of the depravity, the possibility they're still covering up evidence that Donald Trump may have been involved with a 13 year old girl. I'm not so naive as to think, well, a 13 year old girl, that's gonna change everything. I don't know, does that change everything? Given everything that MAGA has accepted the fact that he Might have actually raped a 13 year old girl. Would that move the needle? Or, or have I just become too jaded?
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Tom Nichols
I think you're, well, there's no such thing as too jaded in the age of Trump. But I think the reason that these stories and this whole scandal has had traction from the beginning, you know, I went, I was back home in my hometown and I was talking to a old friend who's a Trump voter, and he, and he said, why do you guys care about this? And I said, we didn't raise it. Donald Trump campaigned on it. And, and you know, it was interesting because this is a friend of mine who will, you know, he'll, he's a, he will go, Gordon Liddy, he will hold his hand over a lighter for Donald Trump, you know, but he, but he kind of went, he just went silent and he nodded. He went, yeah, and he just went, yeah, that was stupid. He said, you're right. And I thought this is like the first time in, in 10 years that we've ever talked about this about Trump. And my friend is just kind of just said, you're right because this is the one promise he gave them. Right. I'm going to expose these pedophile, elitist, Democrat, you know, perverts. And it turns out the call was coming from inside the house. And, and they, on, they're willing to forgive Trump everything. They know he lies like other people breathe. They didn't think on this one thing that he was going to shank them so badly. And, and I think on top of it, aside from the fact that this is, and we can go into like a deep analysis of why is the only thing that the American right cares about pedophilia now? Because I think my answer is, I think it makes them feel heroic and that they, it's, it's the highest ground you can seize. It used to be abortion, now it's, you know, the abuse of children. They're always looking for that kind of unassailable moral fortress to, to call everybody else their enemies. But I think it's also this notion that this is the one thing he cannot lie to us about. We'll forgive him everything. We know he lies. We know he's a person of low moral character, but we staked everything. And for the first time, I think this is why I brought up my old pal who I grew up with as a child I love very much, but he's just bonkers about this stuff. Um, is that for the first time he's made them feel stupid.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, that was inevitable was.
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Tom Nichols
You know what I mean?
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
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Tom Nichols
Well, I mean, I mean, you think that. You think that they would have felt that way about a million other things about pulling the rug out from under them, about, you know, the economy or any number of lies. They're willing to let all that go. But on this one, I think the few people that are. That, you know, I've really kind of gone face to face with about this, there is the first inkling of shame that I've ever seen in some of my friends who are Trump's.
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Charlie Sykes
Well, there's another aspect to this as well. I mean, I agree with everything you just said there. And the horrors, I think, are hard to ignore, and the fact that they're the victims and the survivors are there and they are asking for justice, and they need to get justice. The other part of this story, though, is, is this what we're learning about, this network of elites that crosses ideological lines? It feels like so many conspiracy theories come to life. All the people who have been wrapped up in all of this, I mean, Larry Summers and Bill Gates and one executive after another, how do all of these super rich, super influential famous people, how do they interact in this particular. What is this web of, I have your back, I will do favors for you. There's something there that makes. And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking that at some point there is a breaking point where the voters and the culture say there is something deeply wrong with the elites in our society. And I'm not talking about the experts in our society, I'm talking about the elites in our society. So this is one of those stories that I think has the scandal aspect to it. It has the sexual aspect, the morality, but it also has a cultural aspect that is just deeply disturbing, that there is this shadow world of the rich and the famous who are exploiting and abusing their privilege and their access in a way that's really breathtaking. It comes out every single day in these files.
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Tom Nichols
And that, you know, I actually think the Epstein files is one of the greatest scandals of the century.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, it turns out to be.
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Tom Nichols
Well, you know, not just because, you know, we found out that the former Prince Andrew is a kind of a douchebag, which I guess, you know, everybody in every. I mean, this was not that big of a shock, I guess, but I think you're right, it crosses political lines. And the reason it's so earth shaking is that it actually confirms some of the conspiratorial thinking on both the left and the right. That, you know, this really is a group of people who, who take care of each other and do terrible things and cover for each other. And even if we left aside the, the accusations of sexual abuse, who share insider information, who tell each other stuff that they're not supposed to tell each other, who profit from it. And I think this is another reason it has a certain amount of traction, because this is one of the few scandals that can, that can unite the right and the left. You know, like you don't you and I as conservatives or, you know, the, the most right wing MAGA guy and the most left wing progressive. We can all agree. Larry Summers. Yes, good. Resign. Absolutely. You're done. You know, we don't need to ask whether he was a Democrat or Republican, Harvard elite, whatever, all of these people, you know, and I think, again, this is part of a danger to Trump because he can't just cast it as a Democratic hoax. He can't just put it in a box as, you know, a hit, a hit piece. And that picture, I think, and I know we've got a million things to talk about, but that picture where Pam Bondi refused to look at any of those women.
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Charlie Sykes
I know, I think so.
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Tom Nichols
That was an incredible, I mean, that, that's the kind of picture where even people on the right, I think even if they won't admit it, they had to look at that picture and say, what the hell is wrong with you? What kind of soulless, horrible people have you all turned into in the name of taking and holding power? Dear God, what's wrong with you?
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Charlie Sykes
Well, yeah, we do have a lot that I want to talk about. And I think this connects the dots because increasingly, and you and I have talked about this before in order to understand the Trump administration, it's not a right left type thing. It's like watching a mafia presidency operate and he's using his powers as a mob boss to enrich and empower his billionaire buddies. I mean, the latest story over the weekend was that apparently he told he nixed the Netflix deal to buy Warner Brothers, opening the way for his cronies, the Ellisons, who are insidifying CBS to now take over Warner Brothers where they can inshitify cnn. And the way he went about that, I mean, you follow that story where Susan Wright, again, a lot of names we're throwing at her. Netflix wanted to buy Warner Brothers. They need the approval of the government. Donald Trump made it very clear that you had to come and you had to kiss his ring. And among the demands that our mob boss President made was that Netflix fire Susan Rice from the Netflix board. Susan Rice used to work, you know, be an aide to Biden. Very, very well known. She had said some things critical of the president. And he basically said, essentially said, you know, bow the knee, throw Susan Rice under the bus or you don't get a deal. They didn't throw Susan Rice under the bus. They don't get a deal. You know, again and again and again, we see this rule by fear and favor. Now, I want to read a story to you that I think some people think of, might think of it as a good news story, and I do not think of it as a good news story. Okay. It's the story of this Columbia University undergraduate who was arrested by federal immigration agents at the college. And, you know, for.
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Tom Nichols
I was at Columbia when that happened. Oh, wow.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay.
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Tom Nichols
I was on campus.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay, then I'm interested in your take. So New York Mayor Zoran Mamdani, who is, you know, obviously has a interesting relationship with Donald Trump. He intervenes personally. He calls up Donald Trump and says, please release this young woman. And apparently he's got enough clout with Trump. Go figure. The Trump says, yes, we're going to release her. It was the clear sign yet that Mayor Mandani, who has vocally opposed Mr. Trump, holds enough sway with the President to bend a highly charged situation through personal relationship and persuasion. So good news, this young woman is released. The bad news is, Tom, what happened to the rule of law rather than the rule of men? Is it now going to be determined by who you know and who can get the President on the phone and say the right things? You know, this is why this is not a good story.
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Tom Nichols
That is exactly the same reaction I had to the story that, you know, Mamdani has figured out how to work Trump. Right. He went to the White House, got those two newspapers. You know, he gives Trump these little props to play with. And Trump, who, you know, 10 seconds ago was railing about communism and lefties, is now in love with, you know, this, this young Africa born Muslim, you know, democratic socialist. Yeah. And a self defined socialist. But, but that's right. I mean, instead of saying the rule of law is this, this woman was arrested, you know, or detained, that it shouldn't have happened. The process should have worked. Instead, it takes the mayor of America's biggest city calling up Tony Soprano to say, listen, can you help me out? I know we have a problem, but you know, my guy, you know, I used to joke, look, I love my adopted state of Rhode Island. We are under three feet of snow, by the way. But, you know, this used to be the headquarters of the New England Mafia. And I always joked that the. The true state motto of Rhode island is, I know a guy, you know, because it's like everything. How'd you. How'd you get. How'd you get that work done? And, yeah, I know a guy, you know, and. And that is. This is now the. I know a guy pro. You know. How did you. How did you, this young woman, get out of custody? Well, I knew a guy. I made a call, I did some things, you know, and we fixed it, we took care of it. And it's. It is really kind of the combination of a mad king and a Mafia boss. We saw that. I know we wanted to talk about the State of the Union that. You saw that. During the State of the Union, it was like. It was. It was almost like he was handing out medals the way old Mafia guys used to hand out turkeys at Thanksgiving in your neighborhood, you know, And, I mean, and, you know, turning to the Democrats and calling them names and making, you know, vowing vengeance against his enemies and then turning and saying, and now the people I love, you know, this benefit, this. This, you know, beneficent showman. I mean, it is. It's insane. And the fact that my friends.
- [19:45]
Charlie Sykes
Everything for my enemies, the law or. Or whatever, or not even the law. So you. You wrote about that. You must have stayed up very, very late because you actually had a report in the.
- [19:58]
Tom Nichols
I drew the shirt straw at the mag. Stay up and. And write about it. And I. And I watched it, and I said, you know, if anybody wants to know what I. What it was about, it's in the. It's in the Atlantic. I watched it so that you don't have to. But, I mean, I just kind of sat there. I wasn't even a. I guess I'm like, you know, I. I have become so jaded that I just sort of nodded my way through it and said, right now, this is the part of our show that's. That. That's why I called it. I called President Trump's variety show. It was his summer, you know, the Sonny and Cher variety hour. But it also had that kind of menacing undertone of, this is what happens when I like you. These are the things that can happen when I don't. And that is not the rule of law. That is a. That is a. A showy. That's. That's not just a mob. You know, Charlie, we always compare Trump to a mob boss but let's remember some of these old mafia dons, they kept it on the down low. They lived in a modest home. They didn't have big flashy cars. Trump is more like a John Gotti guy, you know, showing. Walking the streets and waving and not even giving a rat's ass. Who knows about the level of corruption that's involved. He doesn't even care.
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Charlie Sykes
You know, you remind me of. Sorry, you, you remind me of a very obscure anecdote that I remember. You know, the famous Boss Tweed in New York who ran Tammany Hall. His downfall began when he started showing up at events with giant diamond tie pins, flaunting his wealth and everything. And then people said, this is really vulgar. Where is he getting all this money? And things didn't go well for him because there was once an understanding that you could be. You could do all these things, but you didn't need to rub people's faces in it. But again, as part of the post shame world we live in, the conspicuous, you know, conspicuously arrogant displays of.
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Tom Nichols
Well, that hardening of the, the notion that the other side is the enemy. Like, I know that there are Republican. You know this, there are Republicans who are grinding their teeth. They hate this. They burn with shame about it because they have internalized this Manichean worldview. You know, this, this good versus evil apocalyptic worldview. They, they support it and they say, that's the guy. That's if. That's our guy, that's our guy. If, if our guy needs a representative whose aides set herself on fire, that's how it's got to be. These are, you know, it's a, It's a fallen world. That's how it's got to go. And it's really disgusting.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay, so that, that, that's a, that's a good segue because I wanted to ask you about this because I put out a newsletter yesterday that I wonder, part of me is thinking, is it excessively alarmist or is it just pointing out that we need to use our imagination? You saw this report that MAGA supporters are circulating this petition telling the President that he should declare a state of emergency for the elections based on using power, the inherent power, based on allegations, debunked allegations that China is planning to interfere. They pulled China out of the hat. Whatever. There's Chinese interference. We know that Tulsi Gabbard is lurking around. How seriously should we take this? Because if the President does declare a national emergency because of foreign interference, he can ban electronic voting machines, mail in ballots he can do all sorts of the kinds of things that he's been musing about in public. And what I wrote was, I kind of remember I'm having this flashback to after the 2020 election, the first time I heard that crazy theory that the Vice President, United States could overturn the election on January 6th. And I thought, oh, that's nuts. That's not going to happen. And yet this was unfold. That threat was unfolding in real time. So I urge people, take it seriously, take it literally. I don't know that he's going to do it. I don't know the courts would allow him to do it. I think the states would push back. But this is not a drill. Tom, what did you make of that story about a national emergency?
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Tom Nichols
It's an emergency. The story about the emergency is the emergency. And look who's fluttering around the edges of this again. Mike Flynn. And the guy, Patrick, can't think of his name. The guy that one of the other conspiracy theorists that got it to the White House and tried to get him to do this the last time around. I mean, this is no joke. And it could become dangerous, dangerously violent because of course the states are going to say, no, you don't have that right. We run our elections. You know, when you were saying this is all based on a rumor or a disprove theory about China, I was going to say this is all based on their understanding that they're going to lose. And that again, you cannot allow, if you lose, it's the end of Western civilization. I mean, Trump always says one of the nation.
- [25:09]
Charlie Sykes
If you believe, if you believe that you are prepared to do all sorts of things you are prepared to do. Donald Trump's the guy that called for suspending the Constitution to restore him to power. I mean, that actually happened and everybody sort of just forgot about him. He's already said this, right?
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Tom Nichols
Once you believe that you are capable of anything. And I don't think Trump at all. Because look, Trump knows that if this, that if the Democrats even just take back the House, forget about the Senate for a moment, his presidency's over. He'll be impeached. He won't be convicted, but he'll be, there will be another trial, he'll be impeached. A lot of his, a lot of things that his people are keeping buried will come to light through investigations and hearings. I mean, he, these people are in a full blown panic about it now. Some of them, I think, are true believers. They genuinely believe. Well, if, you know, the Democrats win, then There will be, you know, I don't know, you know, school children being trans in the streets or something, you know, whatever the moral panic of the day is. But I think on a more mob like level, these are. People say, you know, this happens. This isn't good for us. This is going to be a problem. We're gonna, People are gonna get hurt. We got, we got issues. You know, there's interests that will be harmed. And there, and I think they're just saying, and it's got to be stopped by any means necessary. These people. This is not, this is not America. When you talk about, if I'm going to lose an election, I'll seize voting machines. That's, that's. It's Latin America 50 or 60 years ago is what it is. It's the Soviet Union, it's China. And yet people, you know, and yet there are still 35% of the American public who say, this is my guy. I think one thing, by the way, to bring, bring up polling, I think one thing that's really important is to remember that, that the majority of American people are not on board with this. One of the, one of the waves that Trump always pulls, he saw, it's the old Nixon line. I speak for the silent majority. The difference was Nixon really did speak for a silent majority. Trump represents a vocal minority. To try this kind of authoritarian takeover, you need to be a lot more popular than 65, 35.
- [27:31]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I mean, there's two things that have happened in the last week, obviously. One was the Supreme Court decision, which I think was a shot across the bow, about his abuse of emergency powers. So I am certainly hoping, and this is one where I am actually hopeful, that the court has established a principle that these grants of vague emergency power cannot be abused by the President. So maybe that 6, 3 majority would also look askance at any attempt to declare an emergency for the elections, I hope. The second thing is that we are seeing the fact that he is alienating the public in rather dramatic, in a rather dramatic way, which, again, reassures me. I mean, he's done a tremendous amount of damage to our political culture, but he has not completely initiated it. There is an inherent sense of decency of people going, no, that's not. We voted for. That's not what we want to be. That's not, that's not the America, you know, that.
- [28:24]
Tom Nichols
For years I've said, put him on TV more.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
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Tom Nichols
You know, because that, that is, I mean, the, the. I think there's 40 to 45% of the public you know, that when he's at that level, it's because 10 or 15% of the public are saying, I haven't seen him. I'm sure he's, I'm sure these stories are exaggerations. He's probably doing good stuff, you know. No, when he, that two hour, that two hour show of a, of a State of the Union address, I wish every news network had carried it and then rerun it the next day, you know, put it on. And of course, I, you know, I always make liberals mad with this. They say, no, don't give them a platform, don't put them out there, don't keep repeating them. No, put it. There should be a Trump chat, like three hours every afternoon. Here's the President. And I think that, that I, I do think that that's actually creating, it's almost like it's stimulating an immune response in the public to say, wait a minute, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, I, this isn't what I thought it was.
- [29:31]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you know, Trump as the great entertainer and you know, there were some commentators who were absolutely jiggy about what a, you know, great showman he is, that he's the greatest showman ever. If he really was the greatest showman ever, he would have gotten a bump out of that speech. And as far as I can tell, he is not getting a bump out of that speech. The people who are watching it were like, okay, you know, we got the bread and the circuses, but then we get normal sort of gas baggery and bullshit. And you know, I don't know how to seriously to take those dials things. People turn the dial up and down. It just didn't sound like it was, it was working for him.
- [30:03]
Tom Nichols
And millions of people tuned in, millions of people also tuned in and say, talk to us, are we going to war? What's going on? You know, and instead they got, you know, I'm gesturing broadly, you know, they got all this.
- [30:19]
Ground News Sponsor Announcer
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- [30:33]
Charlie Sykes
This is what they do.
- [30:34]
Ground News Sponsor Announcer
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- [30:46]
Charlie Sykes
How did the right cover it?
- [30:48]
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- [30:56]
Charlie Sykes
you'll see stories that are being ignored
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- [31:42]
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- [32:14]
Charlie Sykes
You know, I did a live stream with Julian Zellizer, the historian, yesterday, and I wanted to bounce this off you as well. I'm trying to remember any parallel where, you know, the nation was this close to a major war that has not even, they haven't even attempted to explain what it would be about. Obviously, treating Congress as a potted plant. President had a, you know, great bully pulpit to lay out the case for getting the public, the country behind any military action. So what do you make of this? This is in your wheelhouse. Are we going to war? And if we're going to war, when and why?
- [32:52]
Tom Nichols
Well, you know, I've said this many times. I said it about why we were in Afghanistan for so long. I said it about many things. This is our fault, Charlie. It's our fault as citizens. This is what happens when military service is reduced down to a fraction, a tiny fraction of the population most Americans. Years ago, my friend, the late Charlie Moscos, he was a military, studied the military as a sociologist. He said the danger that we're getting. And he said this like 20 years ago. He said the danger is it used to be that people didn't know anyone who had served in the military. Now people don't know anyone who knows anyone who served in the mill. I mean, it's like literally getting this far, that unless you live in a. I live in a military town. I live in a town with a big Navy base in it. But unless you live in a military town or have family in the military or close friends, it's like, oh, we're going to war. Well, fine, you know, let's look somebody else's problem. Blame George W. Bush for some of this. He's the one that, you know, after 9, 11 said, go shopping, go to the mall. You know, we're not going to have any war tax. We're not going to have a draft. We're not going to have any, you know, extraordinary measures. We're going to fight, you know, wars in two places, and your life will not be affected by it. But it's also showing you how decadent and cynical and removed Americans have become from their, from governing their own country. And Julian is right. This has never happened before where we have this much firepower concentrated somewhere. And nobody. And even the Democrats. I mean, I'm sorry, but, you know, the Democratic Party ought to be on, you know, on, on every screen saying, how can we be going to war? And there is no authorization, no hearings, nothing. You know, the Supreme Court. I meant to add, too, when you're talking about the Supreme Court, every decision now is, you know, the fall of civilization will be announced as a 5, 4 decision. But what's really shameful is that every time there's a decision, you know, that it's going to be six, three, because it's always going to be Alito and Thomas, who are basically now just extensions of the Trump administration, plus a player to be named later. You know, and it, this one, this tariff issue should have been. I mean, Kavanaugh's dissent was, you know. Well, we did. I mean, it was just. I'm not a lawyer, but come on. Well, they didn't say how they're going to, you know, issue the refunds. That's not, that's not their job in the, you know, the Supreme Court's not supposed to figure that out. Supreme Court's supposed to rule on whether things are constitutional. That should have been a 9 0, but. But there is. You're not going to see that because two justices have basically decided, just like Mike Johnson and everybody else, that Donald Trump must be protected because otherwise it's the fall of Western civilization. And that is not jurisprudence. That is activism. And, and they're not going to stop Trump from. I mean, look, I, I have mixed feelings about this. I'm Taking out the Iranian regime. I, I'm a little, I'm a little, I'm a little worried about regime change because I supported the Iraq war and,
- [36:05]
Charlie Sykes
yeah, that didn't work out well.
- [36:08]
Tom Nichols
I, I didn't, I didn't count on, you know, Bush and Rumsfeld and Bremer doing all the stupid things they did. So now I'm, you know, I want a high level of competence. And compared to George, you know, compared to Donald Trump, George Bush is fucking Churchill. So, you know, going into a.
- [36:27]
Charlie Sykes
And Iran's a much bigger country and more complicated. So, yeah, we get rid of the mullahs. Who comes next? Are we going to bring the Shah back? The other thing is that I think
- [36:35]
Tom Nichols
that, is that what we're doing, Is this a regime change war? Is it a coercive, non proliferation war? Is it a, you know, demonstration strike to make them behave? What? But nobody's stopping this. Not Congress, not the American people, not the courts, nothing. And that's our fault, Charlie.
- [36:54]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and the other thing is that I think that Donald Trump has been, you know, the little bit of the hubris here has then is been that he's engaged in strikes without suffering any casualties whatsoever. So in his mind, he's saying he can go in and do it quickly, get a quick win with no downside. I can't even imagine what happens if there are significant casualties. And then I think people will be talking about it. So you have a piece. I had a piece on Friday afternoon dropped in the Atlantic speaking of foreign policy. One of those again. Where do we make the list of the most bizarre things? The fact that the fate of the world has been turned over to what, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. But then you also, have you wrote about the ambassadors. Just give it, give us a short thumbnail. I'll post a link to your piece. But, you know, this is another aspect of who is representing America and what are they saying and what is the world seeing from, you know, from our new foreign policy faces.
- [37:55]
Tom Nichols
It really is incredible that, you know, look, ambassadors are the presidents. You know, they are, to use the old Latin term, they are the, you know, the plenipotestas. Right, the plenipotentiaries, they are fully empowered to speak for the government of the United States. But these guys, guys like Huckabee and the ambassadors to Poland and France. Okay, first of all, let me just back up and say Charles Kushner is the ambassador to France, one of our most important.
- [38:24]
Charlie Sykes
Convicted felon pardoned by Trump.
- [38:29]
Tom Nichols
Not just A convicted felon who like ran afoul of a couple of tax laws and screwed up and, you know, had to pay felon pay penalties. This is a guy who set up his brother in law with a hooker and sent the tape to his sister. I mean, you know, this is not, these are family values and the father of, you know, one of, of Trump's son in law. I mean, what a slap in the face to our allies to even send this guy as an ambassador. But these ambassadors don't think their job is just to represent the policies of the government. They think their job is to, is to represent Trump's personal feuds and boorishness and general, you know, kind of assholery in foreign capitals. And it is, it's not just, it's not just embarrassing, although it is really embarrassing. It's, it's destructive to our foreign policy at a moment when we could be going into a major war with a country of 92 million people. And that, that is, you know, the only people that seem to be speaking up just to go back to that issue for a moment seem to be the professional military, which is, I, I'm glad to hear that. You know, Dan Cain, clearly somebody is letting stuff leak, you know, or you wouldn't know anything about this. I mean, Kane. Or somebody is saying we need to tell the public that the military has the eebgies about this, but it should be people like, I don't know, the Secretary of Defense, but he's too busy lifting weights and, and chewing out the boy Scouts, beating up on the, instead of doing his goddamn job. And who, who's going to, you know, okay, Marco Rubio, whatever my complaints about how he has completely abandoned every ounce of principle. He is a intelligent man who knows a lot about this stuff, but he can't be the Secretary of State and the national security advisor and, and the chief military adviser and the Secretary of Defense and you know, the guy, you know, laying out all the military risks. And you know, this is, I think you're absolutely right that Trump isn't, you see this in his ambassadors. He's not interested in any of that stuff. He doesn't want advice. He wants people who go out there and are, and basically mimic him and will insult people.
- [40:47]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, without getting too deep into it, there have been these little sort of blow ups. The ambassador to Poland, you know, insults the head of the Polish parliament for criticizing Donald Trump. Charles Kushner, first of all, you know, the French being ambassador. Anybody right about that?
- [41:02]
Tom Nichols
Did I get that he was summoned and he said not coming. That's a big deal in the diplomatic world. Look, you know, you want to be a diplomat, your host country summons you, you go, you nod politely, you say, yes, I understand.
- [41:16]
Charlie Sykes
That's what's known as being diplomatic.
- [41:17]
Tom Nichols
Yes.
- [41:18]
Charlie Sykes
Yes. Yeah. So Charles Kushner, who is the ambassador to France, you know, is summoned by the French government to, you know, apparently there's been a lot of demagoguery about a young right winger who was. Who was killed during a clash. I don't want to get too deep into all of that. And, of course, the right wing in the United States and in the White House tried to exploit that. The French are saying, well, actually then summoned Charles Kushner, and Kushner refused to go. And so now he's been banned.
- [41:50]
Tom Nichols
Our.
- [41:50]
Charlie Sykes
The ambassador. The U.S. ambassador to France has been banned from having interactions with French officials because he is so crudely indifferent that he couldn't show up. I mean, twice.
- [42:01]
Tom Nichols
When is this the second time he's refused to summons. Yeah. And so what's his job? He's banned from talking to officials of the French government. What's his job? To, you know, go to good restaurants. I mean, what. What.
- [42:15]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and there are many.
- [42:16]
Tom Nichols
What are. What are you supposed to do all day if you can't actually talk to your host government? And they've based, you know, one step below Persona non grata. Right. They basically said, no one in this government's going to talk to you because you're being a jerk. Well, then, I'm sorry, what are we.
- [42:30]
Charlie Sykes
Post TikTok videos. Post TikTok videos about how Donald Trump is the greatest president ever. I don't know what. What we're paying for that we're paying.
- [42:39]
Tom Nichols
Remember, you know, these are not Donald Trump's personal friends doing this for free. These are government employees, you know, that are being paid to sit in these foreign capitals and pick fights. And it's just such a humiliation for this country. It really is.
- [42:55]
Charlie Sykes
Well, speaking of humiliations, it feels like a month ago that we had the whole Cash Patel going into the locker room with the hockey team and everything. I think that the. I mean, just leave aside Cash Patel. What an incredible hypocrite he is. And the fact that he did this on the taxpayer dime and he lied about it, that we have. That we have tapes of Kash Patel criticizing his predecessor, Christopher Wray, for using a jet, and then he jets around, and we're finding out now that investigations have been impacted because the FBI couldn't use the jets because Kash Patel was using it. I mean, just set that aside. I thought it was so unfortunate that this great. One of those few moments of undiluted national pride. The women's team wins the gold medal. Women's hockey team. The men's hockey team wins the gold medal. It is the first time since 1980. What a great celebration. And it gets again inshidified by Donald Trump. He invites the men to the State of the Union address. Great patriotic moment. But he can't get. He's so ungracious. He can't do that without insulting the women's team. The women's team turns down the invitation and then make it pretty clear that they thought it was insulting. I mean, again, things that are unprecedented take the win. But Donald Trump does not see himself as the president of all Americans, does he? He only sees everything through the prism of, you know, us versus them. And I, I thought it was just extraordinary.
- [44:35]
Tom Nichols
He's surrounded by people who see it the same way. You know, in the.
- [44:39]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [44:39]
Tom Nichols
In the first Trump administration, as hideous as it was, there was always going to be somebody who would say, hey, you know, maybe that's. Maybe we want to think about this, or maybe that's not a good look, or maybe we ought to do this differently. This is now, you know, again, it's a, I mean, look, even a mob boss needs, you know, a Silvio, you know, to say, hey, tone, you know, this is a problem. You know, we should do things differently. He doesn't have that. I mean, we all thought it was Susie Wiles. I guess it's not. But there isn't anybody who does that. And, and that's.
- [45:18]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I was going to say I don't envy her, but I don't also have. I have no sympathy for her. Okay, so here is a radical change of, of, of topic, but it goes back to this question of the only thing that is really going to stop what's happening is. Well, I mean, the one thing that is necessary, not sufficient, necessary, are the midterm elections. As you mentioned before, if Donald Trump loses control of the House, loses control of the Senate, his presidency is over. Losing the House seems more likely than not. The Senate is more of a reach, which is why what's happening in Texas is so truly extraordinary. Republicans look like they are working incredibly hard to blow that up. The possibility that they will nominate Ken Paxton, who has been charged with felonies, because, you know, talk about, what does it take, you know, his wife, you know, just divorcing him because he was having an affair. I mean, she it is so messy. It is so ugly. It's the ugliest primary in America right now. If they nominate Ken Paxton, it's almost like a gift to the Democrats. But then the Democrats have their own issues. We know the whole James Talarico thing with the fcc. Your magazine, the Atlantic, has a very, very, very disturbing story about the Democratic, at least for the moment, Democratic front runner, Jasmine Crockett, congresswoman, who again, I'm a little, I'm very skeptical about her ability to win a general election. But can you briefly talk about the story that one of your colleagues, Elaine Godfrey, went down to cover the Jasmine Crockett campaign, and Jasmine Crockett's people threw her out. And it's one of those things going, what's happening here? Does Jasmine Crockett have a kind of a Trumpian problem with people who write critical things about her? So what do you make of that story? Because it seems very embarrassing.
- [47:13]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, she, she seems to have a very thin skin. Elaine's story. Yeah. The backstory here is that Elaine did a profile of Crockett last year, and she, when Crockett found out that Elaine was doing, you know, reporting, you know, she, you know, by talking to people, she didn't like that Elaine was talking to other House members about Crockett. She said, I'm revoking all permissions. And, you know, this. And it's. And, you know, of course, that's not how it works. I mean, once you've said, yes, I'm speaking on the record, you can't say, I'm now going to revoke all permissions for this piece. As if somehow, I mean, that was a very Trumpian thing, this piece. You can't run this piece because I don't like it and I'm revoking permissions. So Elaine then went to this rally, this campaign event in Texas, and they threw her out. And, you know, Godfrey asked what Lane Godfrey asked, what are you doing here? And they said, they actually quoted, said, we are told. And the security person repeated the instructions. Elaine Godfrey, white girl, you know, hat, top notch hater from the Atlantic, has to be thrown out. Okay, that's all bad enough. Crockett then goes on camera and says that didn't happen, and says that a certain reporter, you know, that this didn't happen to a certain reporter, but that a certain reporter was, you know, shouldn't be trusted because she was sued for defamation and lost. None of that happened. I mean, the editor in chief, Jeffrey Goldberg, put out a statement saying, you know, this isn't this isn't how coverage of political candidates works. And by the way, she was ejected. And no, she was never sued for defamation. I mean, first of all, a reporter who loses a defamation lawsuit never works again. So, yes, generally that's so rare in America that you can win a defamation lawsuit. I mean, you really have to be Fox News to lose, to have to settle a defamation suit. But that just didn't happen. And I think that explained. Look, if Jasmine Crockett can beat Ken Paxton, more power to her. You know, I always tell people, don't ask about the candidate, ask who they'll caucus with. That's the old school, you know, Washington in me, right? There are terrible people who make dumb mistakes and, you know, good people who say stupid things, but always ask, who are they going to caucus with? Which side becomes speaker? The problem here is, can she. Is this somebody who's ready for prime time? You know, is this the one candidate who really can lose to Ken Paxton? And before you and I talked about this, I mean, I was. I put this story on my social media feed, and, you know, I've got liberals yelling at me. This is a hit piece. This. You shouldn't be saying this. I'm sorry. You throw a reporter out, then deny doing it, and then accuse somebody of losing a defamation lawsuit. It's a story.
- [50:17]
Charlie Sykes
If you're right, and you want to know this before the primary, you're right. You want to know this before. Before you're locked into the general election. By the way, my litmus test is not necessarily who you caucus with, but it is. It's in my mind. It's like, is this person going to vote to confirm Trump's nomination of Eileen Cannon to the U.S. supreme Court or not? I mean, it really could, because it's gonna come down to very, you know, yes or no, you know, whatever.
- [50:42]
Tom Nichols
I mean, that doesn't mean that you accept every possible candidate. Because then that brings you back to the Gonzalez problem, right, that you're saying that, you know, this. I mean, look, when David Duke ran in 91, back when there were still a moderate Republican party and George H.W. bush was heading it, he was like, we would rather lose this election than accept David Duke.
- [51:01]
Charlie Sykes
That was. That's when they actually had.
- [51:02]
Tom Nichols
No one says that.
- [51:03]
Charlie Sykes
All right, so in the few minutes.
- [51:04]
Tom Nichols
Yeah, nobody ever.
- [51:05]
Charlie Sykes
In the few minutes we have left, speaking of being beaten up by you're segregated critics from the left, the right was absolutely in fuego about your earlier piece this week where you pointed out all of the Nazi Imagery being used by various agencies of the Trump administration. And I should point out you've been cautious about using the F word, your fascism. Right. I just want to put this in some context.
- [51:32]
Tom Nichols
Very much.
- [51:33]
Charlie Sykes
And so it was really kind of eye opening when you write the piece about all of the Nazi sloganeering and imagery. Tom, why? What is happening? Why does this keep happening? Is this something that, that they are doing because they just want to trigger us, because they're trolling us? Is it because they are so thoroughly corrupted, they're so marinating in this extremist rhetoric that they don't realize how awful this shit is?
- [52:02]
Tom Nichols
I think there's several reasons. First of all, I think that the Republicans are putting up with actual Nazis in their midst and other real, you know, really horrible people. Because you saw this with JD Vance right in front of Turning Point. I'm not here to. I'm not gonna. I don't have a list of people, you know, that we shouldn't. Which is another way of saying, look, this is so important. This goes back to the Gonzalez and the, you know, Alito and Thomas kind of. This is so important that every vote is a vote we'll take. Come, come one, come all. The tent has to be so big because we are fighting for, you know, Western civilization. Now there is a trollish issue to this. Some of these people at labor and Homeland Security and the White House, I mean, clearly the social media accounts are in the hands of young posters who think it's hilarious to echo. One of the things I brought up in my piece was which Way Greenland Man? Because when the President was trying to take Greenland. Which way Greenland man isn't is taken. It's an obvious echo of which Way Western man, which was written by a notorious neo. Not, you know, got an anti Semite who thought that all these well known that America should deport all of its Jews, you know, and they know what they're doing and they know it because they're trying, I think in this case, yes, Charlie, they're trying to trigger us to delegitimize their opponents. Because the charge against me was from all these people on the right, including some of my old comrades, you know, people I used to know, that I'm trying to get people killed. Right.
- [53:41]
Charlie Sykes
This is the permission structure for assassinations. If you call someone a Nazi.
- [53:45]
Tom Nichols
Yes, you want the President assassinated, You want people killed. I didn't say all Republicans are Nazis. I said my former party has gotten too fucking comfortable with Nazi imagery and memes. And you know, when the President has dinner with Nick Fuentes. That's a problem is, you know, when a guy who, you know, was, you know, involved with a website that was talking about how great, you know, Hitler was is allowed to come back to work, that's a problem. And the, the pushback was to say, see. And, you know, you could almost say that I walked right into it by writing the article at all.
- [54:23]
Charlie Sykes
But you knew it.
- [54:24]
Tom Nichols
I don't think we should be staying. I don't think we should stay silent just because people are going to say nutty things. But the response was, see, they want to kill us all. They want war, they want to destroy us. And that talk about permission structure, that rebounds back to. And that's why Gonzalez can't resign. That's why no Supreme Court decision should ever go against the president. That's why, as awful as Trump is, we have to support him. Look, Charlie, they know exactly what they're doing, and they know that there are, you know, that, that, that these memes and images. I started with, I left the piece talking about Greg Bovino's coke.
- [55:00]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [55:01]
Tom Nichols
You know, which was not. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna. It.
- [55:04]
Charlie Sykes
What?
- [55:04]
Tom Nichols
Well, you know, I, I, I didn't put it in the piece, but the, the quote that kept jumping out to me was Jonathan Last saying the Ober Gruppen Fuhrer, look, is not an accident. And I pointed out in the piece that even German newspapers, you know, German newspapers are going, yeah, we kind of recognize this. We know an aesthetic when we see it. And, and that, you know, I just didn't think, especially as someone coming from this party, you know, that I think it was important to point out that my old party has gotten way too comfortable with Nazis, Nazi imagery, Nazi memes, and, and accepting, you know, the support of anyone, no matter what their background and political creed. And the response to that was, you're calling us all Nazis and you're trying to get people killed. And that's why this has to be total war. And it's just, it's insane. I mean, it really is. People are brain poisoned at this point.
- [56:03]
Charlie Sykes
But I'm glad you called out J.D. vance, because J.D. vance has made it very clear that in his political future, there are no enemies on the right, that he is not going to play the role that, say, you know, a William F. Buckley, Jr. Played in saying, hey, listen, if we want to be taken seriously, we need to push these people off to the side. JD Vance has decided that he is not going to criticize any of these folks that he's not going to alienate them. So as a result, he's going to provide cover for some of the ugliest voices in American politics. Tucker Carlson, Nick Fuentes, all the way to the right. Although it is interesting watching people in the MAGA going, where did this Candace Owens come from? How could this possibly happen? I mean, it's like, guys, if only you had been warned.
- [56:50]
Tom Nichols
Only the guy who did this.
- [56:51]
Charlie Sykes
Right? Exactly. It's like. But that is the subject for another day. Tom Nichols, thank you so much. We'll post links to all of your Atlantic pieces in the newsletter. Just go to the Contrary. It's always a pleasure to talk with you, Tom.
- [57:05]
Tom Nichols
Thanks for having me, Charlie. It was good to see you again.
- [57:08]
Charlie Sykes
And congratulations on surviving the great blizzard of 2026. Thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. We continue to do this, and we will do this as long as it takes, because as you know, we need to continually remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [57:44]
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