← To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
To The Contrary with Charlie Sykes
Trump, Vance, and Zelenskyy: A national Disgrace (with Adam Kinzinger)
00:17:44
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- [00:00]
Charlie Sykes
Foreign welcome to the to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. I am going to violate one of my cardinal rules for podcasting, which is never to podcast angry. But I don't know what else to do because we have just been watching an extraordinarily, extraordinarily disgraceful scene in the Oval Office with Vice President Vance and Donald Trump berating President Zelensky. Joining me on this podcast, my good friend Adam Kinzinger. Adam, I just deep breath here because that was as ugly as anything I have ever seen.
- [00:45]
Adam Kinzinger
I literally, I mean, I don't think, you know, maybe with cameras off you could find a meeting maybe like that happened in the past, just like between leaders like that. But I have never, there has never been anything like this. It's a shame, shameful. And this isn't even, we're not even talking about an adversary. This is supposed to be an ally. It just.
- [01:04]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well, to put it in some context, this was supposed to be the photo spray before the actual talks. The photo spray usually lasts, you know, what, 10 seconds, 30 seconds, and they get the press out and then they get down to actually negotiating. And I'm guessing that some of those negotiations can get heated, but it felt like it was almost a setup. Look, I, I'm going to set the scene here. Here is the the report by Peter Baker from the Trump and Vance berate Zelensky during testy White House meeting, President Trump and Vice President J.D. vance castigated President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine for not being grateful enough for U.S. aid. You're gambling with World War Three, Trump told Zelensky. President Trump and Vice President J.D. vance loudly berated President Zelensky of Ukraine on Friday in an explosive televised shouting match unlike any scene in the Oval Office between an American president and foreign leaders in modern time. Putting it in context, Trump and Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for US support in its war with Russia and sought to strong arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate. With voices raised and tempers flaring, Trump threatened to abandon Ukraine altogether if Zelenskyy did not go along. Talking over the Ukrainian leader, Vance told Mr. Zelensky that it was disrespectful for him to come to the Oval Office and make his case in front of the American news media and demanded that he thank Mr. Trump for his leadership. Trump jumped in, told the Ukrainian leadership, you're not really in a good position right now and that you're gambling with World War three. You're either going to make a deal or we're out. Trump added, and if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty now. Zelenskyy tried at the beginning to explain what's going on in Ukraine to Trump and Vance, tried to explain the atrocities, tried to explain the fact that you cannot trust Vladimir Putin, tried to explain that in fact, they had negotiated. And let me just give you some of the reaction here, Adam. David Frum, we're watching the on video confession of the Trump Russia scandal. Damon Linker. That event in the Oval Office is going to send shockwaves across the world, far more so than Vance's Munich speech. We're the most powerful country in the world and we are Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde from administration to administration. Today, Mr. Hyde made his full debut. Ben Rhodes said that these are not political news cycle issues. Trump is transforming what the United States is as a country in the world into a far right, authoritarian, transactional, valueless oligarchy aligned with the world's autocracies. Conservative lawyer Greg Nunziata. I am hard pressed to think of a more disgraceful and damaging performance by a US President on the world stage than what we just witnessed in the Oval Office. Our good friend, Tom Nichols. This is the video the Kremlin needed and will celebrate. General Mark Hertling. Some have disappointed, some have had bad policy, some made big mistakes. But I have never in my life been ashamed of American leaders until today. And David French. This is utterly shameful. This is Vladimir Putin's best outcome. The US Is placing pressure on a free nation fighting for its life while giving aid and comfort to an authoritarian thug. And Adam Kinzinger, Trump is a Russian agent. I'm sorry, but f you, Donald. So what do you really think, Adam? I mean, I laugh about this because this was just, you know, if you have worst case scenarios, this felt like.
- [04:54]
Adam Kinzinger
That it was, listen, and I, you know, I've been, I've been cussing a lot on X and I don't want to, but I just feel like sometimes and I don't consider the F I kept, you know, I just kept it to F and, but it's like, I feel like it's the only words that can describe the feelings. I mean, listen, you know, let's keep in mind, Vladimir Zelinsky thanks us all the time. All the time, all the time. You also put him in the Oval Office where he has two people around him, the vice president and the president. Both flew it in English, talking in English. Vladimir Zelinsky, who did his best, he didn't have a translator. He could have spoken through a translator. He operated in English as best he could. And he was totally. They intended to ambush him. And what you saw there, it looks.
- [05:42]
Charlie Sykes
Like it was like it was set up to fail that way.
- [05:45]
Adam Kinzinger
Totally. And even if Donald Trump didn't know it, Vance did. And that's exactly when Vance jumped in and goes, you're not showing enough appreciation because he switched off a subject that they were talking about just to that to try to get. Because Vladimir Zelinsky. And here's the thing, people need to realize he's not subservient to us like he, he has the same status as the President of the United States. Sure, we're a bigger, more powerful country, but he is a head of state. And honestly, he shouldn't even have listened to what the Vice President of the United States was saying when the President was in the room. And I've got to tell you, Charlie, the thing that drives me even more insane is that Russia is truly on the verge of losing this war. They cannot generate offensive combat power anymore. Their economy is an out of control inflation. They sold 100 tons of gold to help fund their war machine. They did that secretly because everybody knows when you start selling gold, you're struggling. And Donald Trump and J.D. vance are desperate to give Russia a lifeline. And it almost feels like they're scared that Russia's going to lose before they can come in and either get this bullshit cease fire or, you know, totally humiliate Zelensky. I mean, this is America now, Charlie. We're the bad guys right now. I hate to tell you, we are the bad guys.
- [06:57]
Charlie Sykes
Well, and we've changed position. I mean, I think there was some concern that, that Donald Trump would for, you know, less than optimal peace settlement on, on Russia and Ukraine. But in fact, we, we have switched sides. And this is the week in which, I mean, you and I are talking on Friday, this was the week in which the United States actually sided with Russia, sided with Russia in the United nations against a resolution that condemned their genocidal war against.
- [07:24]
Adam Kinzinger
China didn't even side with them. China didn't even side. They abstained at least.
- [07:29]
Charlie Sykes
So we start the week with us switching sides, which is breathtaking. And we end the week with the very personal, angry, intentional humiliation of Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office. And you can tell it was very, very personal. We won't go through all the audio because people will have heard it. But he is trying to make the case, but he's not willing to do what other world leaders were willing to do, which is basically kiss the ring. Now, you know, Macron of France, Starmer of England were willing to push back on certain, in certain areas with Trump, but they were not willing to be humiliated. And what was interesting was the fact that you saw raw. I mean, the raw emotion was that they did want to. They wanted to berate him. I mean, the language in Peter Baker's article is absolutely correct. And they wanted to do it in public. They wanted to do it where the whole world was watching. And this is in the context of a negotiation. Let's just dial back why, why President Zelensky is in Washington to begin with. He was there, I guess, ostensibly to sign this mineral deal, which was part of the Trump administration's shakedown. Nice country you got there. You know, it'd be a shame if anything happened to it. I was always very, very skeptical about that because, number one, it was not a peace deal. It did not have security commitments to Ukraine, but it was very much kind of a mafia strong arm. If you want us to continue to help you, you have to give us your minerals. And I think there was an assumption that maybe they were going to sign this deal because it wasn't great, but at least it would go on. So he comes in, he's supposed to sign this deal, and instead of, instead, you have this humiliation. So give me your sense of what happened because Trump, Trump put out a statement and maybe see if I can find it shortly after this. Basically implying that he was done with negotiating with. With Zelensky.
- [09:37]
Adam Kinzinger
So, yeah, I mean, look, I think Trump wanted to extract everything from Zelinsky. He wanted Zelensky to come crawling. Trump wanted to be the guy that gets a cease fire, but he knows that he can't push back on Vladimir Putin for whatever reason. And, I mean, we're starting to get to the Occam's Razor of maybe actually Donald Trump is compromised by Russia, because, I mean, actually, that's the only thing that makes sense. And, and so I think it was to bring him here, to bring him crawling, to have a ceasefire that ends, where basically Russia can rearm and reattack. That's because that's the thing that triggered this, is Zelensky was pressing him on security guarantees. Yeah, like, okay, yeah, ceasefire. But you can't just allow Russia to rearm. That's what triggered Vance. That's what triggered Trump. And here's the Other thing you mentioned, Starmer and Macron. Keep in mind, those are countries at peace. They can afford to come here kind of under, you know, their people understand that they've got to play the game a little bit. When you're a leader of a country at war, you cannot show any weakness and you cannot show any subservience to anybody because you're leading ostensibly thousands of people into their death to defend your country. So you have to play to that domestic audience as well, which Zelensky was heroically doing. But Donald Trump can't take it. And J.D. vance, who truly loves Russia, I mean, he said it, he has said this, but truly loves Russia, is, was there to trigger him and set this thing off. And here's the good thing. If we're going to look at any good thing in this is, I do think you're starting to see on the right a little bit, people go, and, holy crap, this is weird. And then in Europe, Europe is starting to see that they're going to have to step up and do something here because, I'm sorry, guys, I hate to say it. As a guy that defended this country, America's not your friend, at least for the next four years.
- [11:20]
Charlie Sykes
That's why it's, that's why it's so transformative. I mean, it's not just a retreat into isolationism. It is switching sides and to, to, to, to Europe. We are not only an unreliable ally there, there's a real potential that we are an adversary. Okay, so here is the statement that Trump issued afterwards. We had a very meaningful meeting in the White House today. Much was learned that could never be understood without conversation under such fire and pressure. It's amazing what comes out through emotion. And I, here it is. And I have determined that President Zelensky is not ready for peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations. I don't want advantage. I want peace. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for peace. So basically he sent him to his room. It's really come to this, as Noah Rothman says, this has been a physically sickening turn of events.
- [12:22]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah.
- [12:22]
Charlie Sykes
And, and, and for people who think, well, this is like this, or this is part of the negotiating strategy where this is the art of the deal. This, this is basically the, the whole, the whole thing here.
- [12:35]
Adam Kinzinger
So, and, and listen, I've been sitting around with my wife here and, and we're just like, I, I, you Know, you get that feeling of, like, I, I. You just want to explode, right? You feel like, yep, there's gotta be a bigger audience. I've got to reach because this is so angry. And I think there's a lot of Americans that feel that way, but we're stuck with this guy. And this is where to our friends, like Don Bacon, like, you know, the few Republicans left that I know deeply support Ukraine. Is this the Hill you die on, or are you just unwilling to die for a cause? And if that's the case, if you're unwilling to die for a cause, then maybe it is better if we. If you don't support Ukraine, because obviously Ukrainians are willing to die for a cause that you're unwilling to even politically die for. So I. This is. It's. It's. It makes me physically ill, really. And especially as a guy that spent my time in Congress caring about America's role in the world and spent my time in the military caring about America's role in the world. To watch this, you know, drop on a dime because of the price of eggs just makes me f. And irate.
- [13:34]
Charlie Sykes
And, of course, eggs are more expensive now than they ever have been. Okay, so your colleague, former colleague Liz Cheney, has issued a statement in the last couple of minutes, generations of American patriots from our revolution onward have fought for the principle that Zelenskyy is risking his life to defend. But today, Donald Trump and J.D. vance attacked Zelenskyy and pressured him to surrender the freedom of his people to the KGB war criminal who invaded Ukraine. History will remember this day when an American president and vice president abandoned all we stood for. And I think it's. Sometimes we talk about how history will remember, and I do think that people will remember today. Today was an extraordinarily dramatic day. Okay. You made a really interesting question. You posed a really interesting question for, you know, allegedly pro Ukraine members of Congress, like Nebraska's Don Bacon. You know, the rationalization for a lot of these folks is we need to stay relevant because we need to stay in the room to stop bad things from happening. And I keep thinking about Marco Rubio and what's left of his soul, because Marco Rubio right now is at the most powerful position of his life, and yet he has never been more pathetic or powerless, because you can imagine that rationalization in the first term. Okay? And you got this from Lindsey Graham. You know, I need to be in the president's ear so that we don't do something that might be reckless or dangerous. What are they telling themselves Now, Marco Rubio is the Secretary of State. He has watched us switch sides in the Cold War, siding with Russia over Ukraine, abandoning much of the rest of the world with cuts in the USAID program that he had supported. And he's sitting there watching this in the Oval Office. He's in the room, but what is he waiting for? What is his rationalization other than, I just want to be in the room because I really want to be Secretary of State so much that I'm willing to abase myself. And any conceivable way, I think it's.
- [15:36]
Adam Kinzinger
That, I mean, look, I don't think we're any more in the position of, like, people stay because they think they can make a difference. I think by now in the Republican Party, I mean, Donald Trump's been on the scene 10 years now. You've had to rationalize his behavior, your behavior, to stay. I mean, look, in, in his first term, there were many of us that are like, okay, well, we'll just, we'll oppose him when we need to. You know, we'll, we'll support him when we can. We'll get through this. This is the Republican Party now. There's no more rationalization. You're in. And so Rubio, yeah, he probably felt uncomfortable today, but he is not going to stand up to Trump. Nobody will. This emperor has no clothes, and nobody's willing to tell him that anymore. And the amazing thing to me is we look as a party and say, Ronald Reagan, you know, this shining star on a hill who Ronald Reagan is, and, and he's the one that said in the speech, the Goldwater speech, he goes, we can have peace tomorrow, surrender. And this is exactly what Donald Trump is talking about all of a sudden. Donald Trump and the Republican Party by extensions, highest call in the war in Ukraine is simply peace. I mean, dude, we could have peace for eternity with every enemy if we just surrendered. If after 9 11, we said, fine, we'll do Sharia law or whatever you guys want, we would have had peace. We never had to do the war on terror. If Ukraine would simply say, we're not going to defend our country, they can have peace, too. And we've forgotten that. And somehow, you know, Marco Rubio, who I bet still has a picture of Reagan somewhere in his office, is now the guy that puts peace at high cost because he's unwilling to stand up to Donald Trump, one of the most flawed human beings, not just occupied the Oval Office, but probably to ever exist on the face of the Earth. And, and these guys are too scared. They can't do it.
- [17:20]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, well. And so this week is the turning point. This is the turning point that some of us have been warning of, and yet still, when it happens, it. It is. It is tragic. Okay, so, Adam, we wanted to spend a little bit of time on this, get this out, and I want to continue this conversation which people can hear over the weekend. Okay. Stick around, Adam and I have a lot more ground to cover. Thank you.