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- [00:00]
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- [02:09]
Charlie Sykes
I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. A hell of a weekend. Donald Trump is on a losing streak in the courts. Spent most of the weekend on a really unhinged bleach storm. I think, though unhinged feels like kind of a euphemism after one judge, actually two judges blocked his slush fund, another judge ordered him to take his name off the Kennedy center. And he says, you know, if they don't want me, I'm going going to wash my hands of the whole thing. And then he cancels the centerpiece concert of Freedom 250 and replaces it with a MAGA rally. Let's dive into all of this. By the way, congratulations making it through the month of May and welcome to June. And joining me on our first podcast in the month of June, our good friend John Avalon, author, historian, pundit, renaissance man. Good to have you back, John.
- [03:05]
John Avalon
Good to see you, Charlie. As always thank you.
- [03:08]
Charlie Sykes
I'm really interested in talking to you about your piece in the Atlantic about what happened to Rudy Giuliani, because, you know, this is one of those things going. You know, Rudy Giuliani, you know, could have been a contender. You know, he could have had schools and airports named after him. You were actually a speechwriter for Rudy. You. You knew the guy. So I really am interested in. In getting your perspective on what the hell happened to that guy. But can we just talk a little bit? Donald Trump is doing to the 250th anniversary party. As an historian, I mean, this is one of those milestones in which America has a chance to come together, to reflect upon its values, where it came from, what happened 250 years ago when we first rejected kings. And Donald Trump has decided to make. I mean, it could be about so many of these things, but Donald Trump has decided to make it about himself. Which is not the most shocking story of the week, is it?
- [04:05]
John Avalon
No, it's completely predictable. But, of course, it's also tragic. I mean, I think the Entire Tenor of America 250 has been damaged by Donald Trump because this should be a moment where we come together as we did at the bicentennial. Sequicentennial is an awkward word, but the quarter of millennia is a, you know, is a time for us to come together. But Trump's malignant narcissism, his impulse to act like a king, is so contrary to American values in the most patriotic, nonpartisan sense that it's alien. I'm worried it's alienating a whole generation that already we needed to do a lot more work in, in terms of bringing them in to the American firmament. The idea that we are a great and a good country, but our greatness comes from our goodness. It's the Lincoln idea and, of course, the core Lincoln idea. That, right makes might. Trump avowedly and his administration avowedly, in their own words, believes that might makes right. That's an inversion of our best traditions. And so if you were trying to fray America's civic fabric, if you were trying to run down a democracy and its sense of self and being part of a broader, noble project, if you were trying to. To destroy the idea of American exceptionalism, you could not do more than Donald Trump has done every day of his second term. But especially as we get closer to America's 250th, it's a tragedy, but we need to reclaim it as patriots and separate it from partisanship.
- [05:51]
Charlie Sykes
Sometimes metaphors are almost too much on the nose, come up with ideas, imperatives. The picture, which, if you're watching on YouTube, you'll be able to see the picture of what he's done to the White House, just seems like this iconic moment. I cannot get it out of my head. The before picture of this pristine White House and the South Lawn and what it looks like right now with the East Wing being a hole in the ground and that giant cage going up for his UFC match, just in terms of the insidification of the White House, it does feel as a. That's kind of a metaphor for what Donald Trump is doing to America. I think Kevin Williamson wrote something over the weekend about how we've gone from the greatest generation to the white trash generation, like, in just a very short period of time here. But what do you think about this? I mean, you have that physical manifestation of what he's doing. It's unfair to white trash.
- [06:49]
John Avalon
Yeah, I think it's unfair. Not a term I'm comfortable saying. But look, it is a perfect metaphor. And of course, history will notice. And the Trumpists, I won't even say Republicans, and certainly not conservatives, who twist themselves into knots trying to rationalize the actions, the behavior that they would loudly and rightly condemned if a Democratic president did one tenth of it. But you can't get more indelible than the image of the bulldozed East Wing built by Teddy Roosevelt, torn down without consultation with Congress or the American people, being a giant hole in the ground. And then the erection of a Ultimate Fighting Championship arena on the White House lawn. And it cost us $60 million
- [07:48]
Charlie Sykes
to
- [07:48]
John Avalon
fight on Trump's birthday.
- [07:51]
Charlie Sykes
Yes.
- [07:53]
John Avalon
I don't know, Charlie. I don't know if I'm putting you dating you here, but are you familiar with the film Idiocracy?
- [07:59]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, I was just about to say this. I mean, every day it feels like that movie was a documentary.
- [08:06]
John Avalon
Yes.
- [08:07]
Charlie Sykes
Not a parody. Yes. Idiocracy.
- [08:10]
John Avalon
Idiocracy. Everyone should go watch it. Luke Wilson stars. But the UFC cage on the White House lawn is, what, you know, not that long ago seemed like the most surreal satire set in some future degraded America where everyone has become collectively dumber and is fixated only on money and sex and democracy itself as a punchline, it's literally taken from the film, and it's happening in real time. And the fact that there are conservatives who are tying themselves up in knots trying to excuse it, rationalize it, explain it. This is a degradation of our democracy. It makes America look bad in the eyes of the world. It's defining deviancy down. But that's too gentle a phrase for it to quote my favorite.
- [09:03]
Charlie Sykes
But it's also not conservative in any way whatsoever. Just underline that once again, that in terms of whether you're talking about respect for our traditions, for the founders, for the values of classical architecture which they all claim to be in favor of, this is not conservative. And we see this over and over and over again. And look at this point, I think there's so much sunken cost of so many Republicans who are willing to go go along with it. But it does feel as if we're in the simulation speaking of idiocracy, where, you know, you keep pushing. How far can we make these guys go? What can we make these guys actually defend? Can we make them defend the ufc, you know, fight on the White House law? Maybe somewhat trivial, but the slush fund, you know, I'm sorry, making a switch,
- [09:55]
John Avalon
but I'm with you.
- [09:57]
Charlie Sykes
Does the slush fund maybe the bridge too far for some of them? I mean, if only they'd been warned that they were going to go this way. What did you make of that?
- [10:07]
John Avalon
That is the kind of action that in the eyes of history is inexcusable. It is amoral. It is, it is outright corruption. A plundering of the public treasury to give money to criminals, some of whom attacked our capital and assaulted police officers. Again, I hate to keep doing this thought experiment, but in the spirit of the politics of the golden rule which we desperately need to restore, otherwise we're not going to have a country. Imagine what Republicans would say if a Democratic president did this. 1/10 of it, 1/10 of it.
- [10:47]
Charlie Sykes
No.
- [10:47]
John Avalon
Tried, sued the government with a bogus suit, had their justice department settle for $1.8 billion of the taxpayers money explicitly to be paid out to partisan henchmen who broke the law and assaulted our capital and police officers. And with it came a codicil saying the IRS would forever and in perpetuity, in all caps, never investigate or uphold tax laws as it relates to Donald Trump, his family or their corporations. It is every bit as surreal and breaking of satire as the UFC cage on the White House lawn.
- [11:31]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, I'm really glad you connected the dots. This whole idea that they would throw in the thing where Donald Trump never has to pay taxes again, never has to be audited again, doesn't even have to file taxes because the IRS has basically pledged that they will never. And it's not just Donald Trump, members of his family and his business. It's like we don't there's no precedent for this anywhere in the United States. Now on Friday, he suffered two pretty significant setbacks in the court where the judge in the original case, the bogus lawsuit when he was suing the irs. She has reopened the case and looking to see whether there was some fraud committed here. There was another judge who put a hold on it was. But I thought it was interesting that you had a number of Republican legislators who have done something they did not do, spoke out against it. It sounds like there was kind of a meltdown in the closed door meeting of the Republican senators before the long
- [12:26]
John Avalon
holiday because it's insane and because most of them are past their primaries and because election day's around the corner and it's totally indefensible. Totally indefensible. So you know, I don't want to give too much credit, although I have said, Charlie, that maybe we would see some more Republicans getting some spine once the primaries were over. And certainly people like John Cornyn and Thom Tillet might join Thom and Bill Cassidy might join Thom Tillis in speaking out even more clearly and righteously unless it feels they might fear that it would compromise their lobbying partisan economy, lobbying contracts down the line. But I hope that's not the case. Cuz I think they're all patriotic people.
- [13:16]
Charlie Sykes
But the corruption and pissed off. They're patriots, but they're pissed off too, right?
- [13:22]
John Avalon
Good. Well, that sometime is a necessary precondition for courage. Unfortunately, that said, that said, what I really object to is the soft corruption that made so many of them shut up for so long. It's when otherwise reasonable, ambitious people who rationalize dealing with Donald Trump because they say, well, he's popular in our party, maybe there's a side order of self interest, you know, if they're running for election. Maybe in the case of the Treasury Secretary or anyone who goes in front of Congress for oath to an office where they all act like everyone else is a fool for understanding why they have to go along and defend whatever he says. Of course they can't say Donald Trump won, that Joe Biden won the 2020 election. Doesn't everybody get the joke that that's a litmus test for my advancement and ability to serve the American people. And so of course I have to lie. Of course I have to defend the indefensible. Of course I have to compromise my integrity and the integrity of the office. I because otherwise I won't get ahead. That has become so baked in the cake that they look at everyone else as crazy for not getting the joke at the expense of their soul, frankly. And our country's soul. The soul of America.
- [14:47]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Because what harm does it cause, right, to just humor him, to go along with all this? Of course, we're living in this. Speaking of which, you mentioned John Cornyn. Since you and I spoke last, of course, is an illustration of what's happened to the Republican Party. John Cornyn is not just defeated for reelection, he's blown out by the Trump endorsed candidate who is arguably, and I wouldn't, I'm gonna take out the word, arguably, the most corrupt, immoral candidate south of Donald Trump in the country, Ken Paxton. I mean, first of all, that. That is amazing. The Republican voters, it's one thing in a binary choice, when you're voting between Democrats and Republicans, say, well, we have to SW this because, you know, otherwise whatever's gonna happen. But they didn't have to vote for Ken Paxton. They could have gone with John Cornyn, but they went with the guy who'd been impeached, indicted, accused of adultery. I mean, the list of. I actually tried to print out whistleblower retaliation. His own staff quit and turned him into the FBI. I mean, this guy is so bad,
- [15:51]
John Avalon
his own wife quit.
- [15:53]
Charlie Sykes
And John Cornyn, who had spent all of these years building up the party and sucking up to Donald Trump, goes down in flaming defeat at some point. I mean, the Republican Party now is just littered with the corpses, the carcasses of people who belatedly discover that loyalty only goes one way with Donald Trump, hasn't it?
- [16:16]
John Avalon
Of course. And yet. And it's all in, of course. Right. This goes back to the great Winston Churchill quote, appeasement is feeding a crocodile, hoping it eats you last. And, you know, when John Cornyn is posing for those deep, thoughtful photographs, reading the art of the deal like it's a new edition of the New Testament. I mean, this is what you get. But you're right, because it's a deeper issue. Right. Ken Paxton beat him 2 to 1. Crushed him. And yet in the case of Bill Cassidy, we could go through the list. Bill Cassidy, Jeff Flake, John Cornyn, if Bob Corker, if any of these cats had decided they wanted to run as an independent and liberate themselves from the insane hot house of these partisan primaries, they'd probably win. But we've gotten a situation where the parties think they're the purpose of our politics. The politicians do whatever the party says, and therefore they ascribe wisdom to it. There must be some wisdom in backing Ken Paxson, who's been indicted and turned over accused of fraud and adultery and bribery. The people have spoken. So therefore, it is a victory for democracy if we just roll over and try to imbue it with some sort of supernatural talent and leadership skills on the part of Donald Trump. It's a mob boss mentality. It's a cult.
- [17:50]
Charlie Sykes
It is. And you know, and to your point about running as an independent, for people who think, well, that's not practical. In fact, it happened twice that I can remember. Lisa Murkowski lost in a Republican primary, ran as an independent, one was returned to the United States Senate. Didn't Joe Lieberman do the same thing at one point to Ned Lamont, who's
- [18:08]
John Avalon
a model of rectitude and a very successful governor.
- [18:11]
Charlie Sykes
Governor, okay, so you mentioned John Cornyn. Now here's a, here's a poignant moment. I don't know whether you caught this. Over the weekend, John Cornyn posted something to X. Yeah. Which I found very poignant. I wrote something rather uncharitable about how pathetic John Cornyn was that he'd been sucking up to Donald Trump so much, you know, only to be thrown under. Under the bus. But he gets it, but too late. So this is what I'm going to hold up the copy of the tweet. And it's very simple. An old but apt fable Cornyn posted. A scorpion wants to cross a river but cannot swim, so it asks a frog to carry it across. The frog hesitates, afraid the scorpion might sting it, but the scorpion promises not to, pointing out that it would drown too, if it killed a frog in the middle of the river. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion midway across the river. The scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion, why did you sting me? Despite knowing that we will both die. To which the scorpion replies, I am sorry, but I couldn't help myself. It's my character. And that's it. That's the post. John Cornyn gets it. He's the frog. Donald Trump. So he doesn't mention Trump's name, but you can tell that he does not need to.
- [19:37]
John Avalon
John Aesop Cornyn, weighing in with the belated wisdom. Of course, it rings a little hollow to me, obviously, on two fronts. First of all, of course, all eminently knowable. I mean, the great civic center. Yeah, we reelected a man who incited a mob on the back of a lie to attack the Capitol to try to overturn an election that's a mark that whoever voted for him, if you're Listening like, you know, we gotta come together as a nation, but that's on you forever. The eyes of history will judge America because of people who made that disastrous decision. And don't give me your whataboutism about some other issue, because that's the fundamental issue. It always comes down to character. If you write history books, if you read history books, more importantly, you know, it always only comes down to character. When it comes to the presidency. That's all we got.
- [20:35]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, this is the key point. This is the key point. I think back over the last 10 years, and it was that fundamental break on the part of Republicans and conservatives who were telling us during the 1990s the character matters and then decided the character did not matter. And I think a lot of the story is not about left versus right and not about liberal versus versus conservative. It is about this issue of character. Which brings me to the piece that you wrote about Rudy Giuliani and what happened, because this feels like speaking of metaphors for everything that has happened. Rudy Giuliani, who was America's mayor, you worked with him and you wrote a piece, what happened to Rudy Giuliani? Which is a fascinating question. So, John, answer the question. What happened? How do you go from this guy who could have been this iconic American, was a plausible candidate for president, United States, to being the drooling punchline that he is now? And I'm sorry to be unkind, but it is. It's pretty bad.
- [21:34]
John Avalon
That is unkind, but it's part of the tragedy. So I was Rudy's chief speechwriter in his second term during. Including through 9 11. I was in my 20s. I think I was 27. During 9 11, I went to work for work for him. And I'd previously done work on volunteer work on the Clinton campaign, been a White House intern. And at the time, and I'm very much. My politics are very sort of Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, third wave politics, right? But Rudy at that time fit that broad script, right? I mean, on the center right rather than the center left. But he was what I have called basically a law and order progressive. It was pro choice, pro gay rights, pro health care, pro immigrant. He was tough on crime. He was fiscally responsible, fiscally disciplined. He reformed welfare. Actually took one of the folks who'd been the architect under Tommy Thompson from your home state, Wisconsin, brought him to New York. One at every seven New York. Everyone knows the crime decline statistics, and they really are extraordinary if you think about it. The city was averaging over 2,000 murders a year. That's six a day. And yes, it's coincident with the crime epidemic, but policing strategies were not working. Rudy revolutionized policing strategies with comps at and quality of life policing, you know, cuts crime and, you know, all the major crimes, I mean, by 2/3. I mean, it's extraordinary. But one out of every seven New Yorkers was on welfare when Rudy came into the office. One out of every seven, 1.1 million. And eight years later, he'd cut that number in half too. Right. He'd taken a deficit, turned it into a surplus while reducing taxes. And I mention all this because to me, the greater tragedy and the piece, I know enough not to read the comments or take them into account. And I got wonderful feedback from a wide array of folks, I mean, all political spectrums. But there are some folks who can't look past the last act. The point of the column is we shouldn't judge anyone by their last act. This has been a tragic last act. He has destroyed his reputation and lit it on fire and his personal finances in service of Donald Trump. And part of the tragedy, though, is that we shouldn't we have cut ourselves off from accessibility to the policies that were so effective. And that 20 years of Rudy followed by 12 years, sorry, eight years of Rudy, 12 years of Bloomberg. Those 20 years turned around New York City, but not only New York City, they helped set a model that helped turn around urban America. I remember a great New Republic cover story that I read in college by Peter Beinert, which will make Peter feel old, called the New Progressives. And it was about Rudy, but it was also about people like Mayor Tecrudan of Los Angeles and Michael White of Cleveland and John Norquist of Milwaukee and Steve Goldsmith of Indianapolis. All these third way mayors, in effect, who were not, not conservative. Many were Republicans, but not all, but they had the latitude to take on the bureaucracy that had been rationalizing the idea that all you could do was manage decline in cities. And it was. People were dying because of this. People were fleeing the cities. Our country was fraying in fundamental ways. And Rudy helped set that model. And because he has destroyed his reputation so thoroughly, it's made all those policy wisdoms much less accessible for people. And that itself is a tragedy. But on a personal level, I can speak to the quist.
- [25:19]
Charlie Sykes
Why did he do it? Because he has agency. Here the headline is what happened to Rudy Giuliani. But it didn't happen to him. This was something he chose. And especially as you go through his legacy and what he could have done because Rudy Giuliani had multiple alternative paths that he could have taken in life that would have taken him in a completely different, different way. I mean, there was a time when he was, you know, probably with the most admired American. He had this record, and yet he chose to do this. Explain that choice to me.
- [25:55]
John Avalon
So I'm happy to, but, but, and, and, you know, I was with him during 9, 11, and, you know, I learned enormous amount from him, not only in that time, which is why I tell the back story of his policies, because people have forgotten it. It's important. So a couple things. First of all, just to do a counterfactual, to put in perspective what you just said. If Al Gore had won the 2020 race, I think Rudy Giuliani would have been elected president in 2004.
- [26:24]
Charlie Sykes
Possible.
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John Avalon
Right. I mean, all other things being equal, you know, can't, can't be, have certitude when it comes to counterfactuals. And generally I hate counterfactuals. But, but just to throw that into sharp relief, shall we say. What happened to Rudy, I believe, is that he let his worst impulses overtake the better angels of his nature, particularly in two points, and I make this point in the piece. One of his most characteristic quotes and the one that most resonated with me was to be locked into partisan politics doesn't permit you to think clearly. The other characteristic quote that explains his long career as a really successful pioneering U.S. attorney, who, you know, Italian American U.S. attorney broke the back of the mob, was laws of search for the truth.
- [27:16]
Charlie Sykes
He really believed it deeply right at that time.
- [27:21]
John Avalon
He got locked into partisan politics and he stopped thinking clearly. And the ultimate insult is that he started peddling aggressively Trump's big lie and therefore made a mockery of the idea that law is a search for the truth. I started to notice a decline around 2015, where his just filter and judgment was often private. It coincided with the death of his best friend, Peter Powers. Lifelong best friend, good man. And he was not initially a Trump supporter. He had never been close to Donald Trump, even when he was mayor, didn't particularly respect him.
- [27:59]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [28:02]
John Avalon
But once Trump was the nominee and he was more of a Jeb Bush, Chris Christie guy, but once Trump was the nominee, part of being in that sort of Fox News ecosystem and spending a lot of time giving speeches to conservative audiences, you know, you start, you know, getting high on your own supplier, you become a product of that hot house.
- [28:18]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you said you described him as having the ex mayor syndrome, where he was addicted to attention, addicted to having headlines, being addicted to be the center. So this, this was like a drug to him, right? That he could be a player as long as he was within that world?
- [28:34]
John Avalon
Well, yes. And yet he, you know, this is something that happened famously to Ed Koch. Right.
- [28:41]
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- [29:45]
John Avalon
Ed Koch could not, you know, the former mayor, like, you know, he would just write movie reviews in the newspaper and just say outrageous, like, you know, radio shows, like just, just, you know, you get addicted to that attention. Where it gets much darker with Rudy is because of the animus. He starts to feel irrationally, to my mind, towards Obama and Hillary Clinton. And then he starts going on TV and as a sort of designated attack dog shill for Donald Trump. And he reflects back that Fox News ecosystem in a way that. And then, of course, as with all the cautionary tales we've told, doesn't even get anything in exchange for the destruction of his reputation.
- [30:27]
Charlie Sykes
Did he think he was going to be attorney general? Did he think that he was going to get that reward? I assume he did.
- [30:34]
John Avalon
He wanted to be Secretary of State. That had been reported. He had been spending a lot of time since 911 traveling the world. He had a fairly detailed worldview, pretty hawkish, but, you know, obviously informed by 9 11. But more than that, that was taken off the table. He had been in his late 20s, early 30s, number three at the Justice Department. I don't know if that was ever offered, but, you know, certainly qualified from a resume standpoint, more qualified than some people who've served as attorney general under Trump and yet ended up with nothing and ended up sort of going on these, you know, Ukrainian fishing expeditions and sort of, you know, you just can't Follow what he was talking about. He became really a hostage to that hot house.
- [31:29]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, well, let's talk about that. So he goes, he supports Trump. He gets nothing from him, and yet, you know, get sucked into this world as you describe, you know, that he forgot the law was a search for truth and instead pushed Trump's baseless big lie about a stolen election. He became susceptible to conspiracy theories, leading these shady fishing expeditions in Ukraine. And by the way, let's not even go into the kind of conspiracies that he was peddling, because they just make no sense whatsoever. And, you know, this contributed in part to Trump's first impeachment. And so. And then January 6th, he's calling for a trial by combat. So part of this is you get. You make a partisan choice. You like the attention. But there's something else. How do you go from being this respected prosecutor who cared about the search for truth to the bizarre conspiracy theorist who is holding press conferences in front of the Four Seasons, you know, excavation? I mean, is there a mental break? Is there a cognitive decline? Is there. I mean, I am fascinated by just watching people's brains get broken.
- [32:44]
John Avalon
As you know, there's something unofficially called the Goldwater rule in journalism, particularly television journalism, where one does not surmise about a public political figure's health. Because we don't know. I don't know. I do know, as I say in the piece, that beginning around 2015, I started to notice a concerning and accelerating lapse in filter and judgment. And, you know, it had been reported he was drinking at the time. But I will tell you, he was never a big drinker at all during the significant amount of time I knew him. That was not sort of an open secret that people were trying to hide. Not at all. As I also say in the January 6th, if we really want to be accountable, I have one line that matters a lot to me because I stayed in touch with Rudy for all our significant disagreements, even surreal moments where I was anchoring a story about Rudy's sort of devolution on cnn, and I had to sort of make a disclosure and do my. You know, But I don't think trial by combat was a slip of the tongue. I don't think we fully know still what Rudy and Bernie Kerik and other people were talking about the Willard Hotel. But this was not an accident, and trial by combat is. And Rudy is a very educated guy. That is a classical term of art fraught with bad history. And I'm not trying to let him off the hook, but I do Think, and I do deeply believe that the essential teamism of partisan politics, when it becomes hyper partisan and hyper polarized, it stops people from thinking clearly. They put their partisan teamism ahead of patriotism and even their own principles. And that's about human nature. And maybe some people are more susceptible to it than others. But I think that's an extreme example of what we've seen. All too often it goes to the
- [35:01]
Charlie Sykes
whole issue of being a cult, that people behave in a very, very different way, mobs behave in a different way than individuals would behave. But I want to go to the very last line of your Atlantic piece, because I think this goes to the heart of our conversation. If there is a cautionary coda you write, it is this Rudy Giuliani would have been an even greater man if he had tried harder to be a good man. It all comes back to character, doesn't it? That's a great line. I gotta tell you, John, he could have been a great man if he had just tried harder to be a good man. What did you mean? What were you thinking there?
- [35:40]
John Avalon
I. Well, I meant what I said. But, you know, it, it always seems to me, and this comes out of my book on, on Lincoln. Sherman once said about Lincoln that he was the, the, the, the. The. Some version of the. The most good man among great men and, and the most greatest men among man among good men. And it was, you know, the qualities of kindness and wisdom. And that's truly the source of Lincoln's greatness when you look back. And he sort of functions as the Jesus of American politics. Assassination on Good Friday. But the people who serve as acolytes, that's what they keep returning to. It's the man's kindness and wisdom, the fact that he was, you know, the definition of character people use sometime where it's, you know, what you do when. And you don't think anybody's watching.
- [36:38]
Charlie Sykes
Excellent definition.
- [36:41]
John Avalon
And it is a perfectly reasonable definition. It's seaworthy. And that's why character counts, particularly in a president, but in all our lives.
- [36:54]
Charlie Sykes
So why did Americans forget that? Why did Americans. I mean, when I am old enough to remember, we would grow up with the stories about the character of a George Washington or the character of a, of an Abraham Lincoln. And we are, in this moment right now, we're talking a week after Ken Paxton is nominated, Donald Trump is sitting in the White House. This was something that would have been completely uncontroversial two decades ago, that America is great because it is good, goodness matters. And now American Greatness has nothing to do with goodness. How did we get here, John?
- [37:31]
John Avalon
Well, first of all, I think we should say it was never a matter of 100% consensus. There were always people, particularly I would say, on the extremes, who believed in that classic phrase that smacks of Leninism. You know, you got to break a few eggs to make an omelet, right? And sometimes that's a benign metaphor, but often it said, you know, sometimes you gotta. You know, you gotta. You gotta kill the chicken to scare the monkeys. If you go back and look at the origin, which is a Chinese Communist Party phrase, which it speaks to an attempt to manipulate human nature through fear. When you go back to the early days of the far right, the Bertrand McCarthy wing, McCarthy didn't particularly venerate character. Neither did Huey Long. Right. And so I don't want to simply give the impression that we once were thoroughly good, because one of the things about studying history is human nature doesn't change. There's a great, relatively unknown Lincoln quote that was the epigraph to my book, Lincoln and the Fight for Peace. And he says it the night he wins reelection in 1864. And one can argue that really is the most consequential election in American history. I think 16 and 24 are deeply consequential in ways that we will spend the rest of our lifetimes as citizens of this republic digging our way out of. But Lincoln, of course, Trump is the anti Lincoln. And Lincoln says this quote on the night of the 1864 election, and it speaks to human nature and politics. He said, this human nature will not change in any future great national trial. Compared with the men of this, we shall have as weak and as strong, as silly and as wise, as good and as bad. Let us therefore study the incidents of this as a philosophy to learn wisdom from, and none of them as wrongs to be revenged. That, to me, is the whole deal. And so we don't need to mythologize the past and say we were all good once, but leadership matters and culture matters, and we did have leadership. Certainly the case of Lincoln, not so much Andrew Johnson, who tried to model character, certainly in the case of Washington, not so much in Aaron Burr, but leadership matters. And setting a tone of a culture, perhaps aided by being a slightly more religious culture. But that's not a panacea itself, where there was a conscious expectation that people would try to model good character, that that was a prerequisite for leadership, and if people fell short in serious ways, they would be removed from leadership. And we Got in a cultural rut, I think, reflecting some of the shallower values of our time, the more transactional values. Remember the movie Idiocracy? Everyone? No one cares about democracy as long as they've got money and sex, like that's the only thing that matters. And if we denigrate character, if we dismiss its importance, understanding that people are flawed and human, but that character on a deep level is the only currency that keeps a democracy running. That's what the book I'm finishing right now, Teddy Roosevelt, in his speech, citizenship in a republic, which everybody knows is man in the arena, he's talking about the responsibilities of citizens in a democracy. And the whole point is that in the life of nations as well as individuals, character is the essential quality. Nothing else matters at the end of the day. And in a democracy, citizens need to have character. You can't simply let leaders take care of everything because the country and the government is a reflection of our collective self. And so we do need to start taking the idea of character seriously again. We need to start inculcating it and teaching again. And not in a pious way, not in a pious, finger waggy, judgmental way, but just say that character counts, that kindness counts, that trying to be good is likely to make you greater. And then greatness without goodness is actually hollow and bankrupt. And that's a message we need to send and we need to tell and we need to model and for people who go out of their way to excuse. And I don't mean I'm not even talking about a sex scandal that takes someone down a peg because that could be an isolated incident or it could be cordoned off from their service. I mean, pervasive bad character that's excused time and time again because it's in someone's short term partisan self interest. That's a betrayal of the democratic republic. That's a betrayal of the United States of America. And the promise of our country, if
- [42:23]
Charlie Sykes
that is the legacy of the times and the struggles we're going through right now, is that we relearn those values, then it will be, that will be a positive outcome. But I do think that there's going to be an interesting debate about, you know, what constitutes, you know, why character matters. But also, and we're seeing this playing out in some of the races this year, what does it mean to be a man? What is, you know, is it aggressiveness? Is it being a bully? Or is it service? What really constitutes greatness? Is it the ability to humiliate someone, to crush someone? Or is it to raise people up. And so I think all of those things are on the table now that we need to rethink. We need to rethink what does it mean to be a human being? What are human beings for with AI So we have to wrestle with these fundamental issues that I think that before the current times, we'd been complacent enough to think we're settled. Right. We didn't think that we needed to talk about these things. We didn't understand why you had to inculcate character, because I think your point is exactly right. If we've learned anything in the last 10 years, it is that character is the alpha and the omega of a liberal democracy that you must have it.
- [43:35]
John Avalon
Yes. But can I ask you a question?
- [43:37]
Charlie Sykes
Sure.
- [43:38]
John Avalon
And this is about your journey. And, you know, we're very much on the same page. But one of the dark ironies of this is that Republicans and conservatives were the ones who were most vocal, most pious, sometimes judgmental to their fellow citizens about the importance of character and modeling family values and all the phrases that actually matter. But to me, the dark, weird irony that is sort of inevitable, I guess, in a novelistic sense, but hopefully not in the life of Republic, is the people who spoke the longest and the loudest about the importance of character were the first to abandon it wholesale. I still don't fully understand it, and I'd love your insights on that.
- [44:31]
Charlie Sykes
I don't either. That was the greatest shock for me. And I'll tell you one of the most shocking moments. I mean, it was shocking, of course, in 2015, 2016, watching evangelical Christians decide that they were going to change their position. I mean, they flipped completely on the issue of character. This was the biggest shock. I mean, first of all, it was watching evangelical Christians who had gone from 80, 20, that character mattered in public life to being 80, 20, that it didn't matter whatsoever. But I'll tell you the moment. I can still remember the shocking moment. I was a great admirer of Bill Bennett. Remember the former Secretary of Education who wrote a series of books called the Book of Virtue? Yes. And all about the books of virtue. And we were friendly. And I really would have described myself as kind of a Bill Bennett conservative at one time. And I remember sitting, watching cable news one day in the fall of 2016 when I was very clearly never Trump, anti Trump. And Bill Bennett comes on and he talks about the moral vanity of never Trumpers who are not getting in line behind Donald Trump. And when I heard Bill Bennett, the man who wrote the actual books about character and virtue and documented all the ways in which, you know, character and virtue were just part of the American culture. Say that it was moral vanity to object to somebody of the character of Donald Trump. I remember just being absolutely shocked, but that was just. That was unfortunately just prologue for what was going to happen over the next decade. So I find it among the things that are the most shocking and don't even get into people who claim to be fiscal conservatives, because I do think that flip on character was the fundamental one. And I think that for a lot of, a lot of the Never Trumpers, it wasn't about the ideology. Although we never thought of Donald Trump as being a serious person or having any principles whatsoever, much less being a conservative. It was this question, why would you put someone this reckless, this dishonest into this position of trust? It came down to that issue of character. So I still haven't figured it out over the last 10 years, except for the incredible capacity for hypocrisy and rationalization.
- [46:53]
John Avalon
Yes, that too. And I do think it's important that we answer it in some fundamental way because of course, it's still going on every day. You know, when I occasionally go back and do sort of panel debates, you know, you just, you know, the Republicans, they understand their assignment. They've got to basically rationalize and defend anything Donald Trump does or says, or at the very least have a ready bag of what about ism to try to deflect and distract.
- [47:26]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, see, okay, so you didn't mention his name, but I'm just trying to imagine what it must be like to be a Scott Jennings. You know, whether you have a certain amount of like, just self pride, you know, because you're an historian, you think this way that you think about, okay, what will my legacy be? What will people say about me in the future? What was the meaning of my life? There are so many of these people that don't seem to think that way, Right. They just. And it's like there are some things that I just would never do or say because it would embarrass me, because I would have a certain amount of pride, because it would be humiliating. And part of this culture we're living in is there are a lot of people that just don't seem to care about that, which always completely surprises me, the willingness to abase yourself by saying some stupid shit on cable television.
- [48:17]
John Avalon
So I'm not gonna join the pilot on Scott in particular, because I've known him a long time and everyone's got their reasons and he was originally a Butch McConnell guy.
- [48:31]
Charlie Sykes
And, you know, very often you're much nicer than me.
- [48:33]
John Avalon
One of the downsides that people, you know, can, can play roles, right. They get cast in a role. And this is where I think we do ourselves a disservice when we treat civic debates as sort of extension of worldwide wrestling. Even though, you know, it's maybe great for ratings, it's bad for. For democracy, and it doesn't necessarily reflect what. What people think. But I do think this is one of the real dangers, just a return to the dangers of hyper partisanship and polarization that I've been banging on about for a long time. The power of rationalization. I think the road to hell is paved with rationalizations. And you can do rationalizations any numbers of ways. You know, there's a lot of people who voted for Donald Trump, and someone needs to articulate what they believe. It's elitist not to. It doesn't reflect the full, you know, gravity of our real debates in this country. And so if someone's got to take the sling and arrow, I will. And, and I might not always say what I absolutely believe, but I will do my best to channel what they believe. And that's a populist expression of democracy. Right. That's what I'm imagining an internal monologue being. Right.
- [49:40]
Charlie Sykes
Right.
- [49:41]
John Avalon
And here's the thing. If that causes you to abandon facts, if it causes you to violate principles that are personal and deeply held, it's all in the service of playing a role and fitting in with the party. And again, I'm not, I'm not speaking about Scott because I wouldn't do it, but that seems to me the original sin here. It's this impulse to go along, to get along, because the partisan economy is how you get ahead. And that is one of the greatest, greatest dangers to a democracy that's putting party over country. It.
- [50:24]
Charlie Sykes
No, it is. And this partisan. Yeah, use the term partisan economy, people need to understand that. That in this world, if you want to fit in, if you. And it's not just whether you're on a show or you're an elective office, it's the entire ecosystem, and the incentives are to go along with this. And I guess that's the lines. One thing to say I'm going to articulate this populist message is something else to basically say, I will defend the indefensible, I will defend the corruption, I will engage in lies, I will engage in conspiracy that I do not believe in. And that's. That decision where you decide what kind of a person do I want to be. But in the flood of the hyper partisanship, people don't ask that question. They just want to. They want to fit in. I can't wait to read your book. When's it coming out?
- [51:13]
John Avalon
Theodore Roosevelt's Guide to Life will be out next March. I'm finishing up edits right now, so I'm in the thick of it. But I always happy to take time to talk with you because I always enjoy our conversations and I look forward to many more.
- [51:24]
Charlie Sykes
Well, the editing is, is, is the fun part of writing, isn't it? That's, that's, that's that, that's. That's the fun part sometimes.
- [51:30]
John Avalon
Yes. I like the crafting of it.
- [51:32]
Charlie Sykes
Well, thank, thank you so much. John Avalon. His, his piece about Rudy Giuliani's in the Atlantic. We will post a link to it it. And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We will continue to do this because we do need to remind ourselves that character matters, but also that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you.
- [52:05]
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