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- [00:00]
Charlie Sykes
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- [01:39]
Charlie Sykes
Congratulations on making it through yet another deplorable week. I'm Charlie Sykes. Welcome back to the to the Contrary podcast. It was a week of scandals, of course, cover ups, wagging the dog, the arrest of Prince Andrew, which is a pretty good indication that at least in Great Britain, no one is above the law, including members of the monarch and the King himself said so. I mean, King Charles at one point said, yeah, let's let the law take its course. Kind of ironic, isn't it that, you know, we have been rejecting King since 1776 and Americans thought that we were the ones who were going to be the role models for the rule of law. Instead, in the reign of Donald Trump ii, very, very different picture. So we have a lot to talk about this week and I apologize in advance since we're prerecording this, we may be at war with Iran, given what's in the Epstein files, but who knows? We'll do it anyway. And joining me for our weekend podcast, our good friend Adam Kinzinger. Adam, how are you?
- [02:47]
Adam Kinzinger
I'm good, buddy. I just, you know, trying to dump buckets of water on the world, but other than that, I'm good. What about you?
- [02:53]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I'm looking forward to maybe running into you this weekend. We're both going to be in Washington, D.C. for the principal's first conference. What a great group. You know, just between the two of us, you know, there's a lot of grifty groups out there. Principals first is really, has really been stand up from the beginning. And I got to give a lot of kudos to Heath Mayo and his team for putting this together. And I'm going to be doing something on Saturday. You're going to be doing something on Sunday. Oh, I'm also going to be speaking to a group called Our Republican Legacy, which is a group of extra, you know, well, actually people who are still kind of, kind of cling on to that. And I'm trying to give a. By the time that I've aired this, I will have had, you know, given the talk, but trying to mix a little bit of tough love and realism with a little bit of hope. Isn't that like we try to do every day? And it's.
- [03:43]
Adam Kinzinger
That's what I wake up and breathe every morning is tough love and with a little bit of hope? Yeah, I mean, look, it's good. I, I hope, I hope we're wrong, Charlie. And, you know, next week there's a mass awakening of the fact that the president is all over the Epstein files and they were wrong and whatever. But, you know, keep trying for those that are out there fighting for Republicanism, I get. But just don't change who you are. That's the key.
- [04:12]
Charlie Sykes
Right, right. Whatever left of it. I mean, how do you adapt to all this? Well, I want to get to that a little bit later. I want to, you know, get your take on this. I, at the end of the week, I'm always, I'm always afraid that there's some major development that we have missed because the distraction zone has succeeded in doing that. I want to talk about the attack on elections. I want to talk about the ongoing corruption, what's going on in Georgia, what's going on in Texas. But you and I have had an ongoing conversation for several years about the whole question, not just of values and character, but how do you raise A young man or a young woman in the age of Trump. How do you basically say, look at those people. Don't be like this? And so I want to start off with something a little positive today for a change. You have a children's book coming out, and I am fascinated to hear about it.
- [05:07]
Adam Kinzinger
I still laugh about it because I'm like, if you'd have told me a year ago that I would write a children's book, I'd be like, wait, what? What are you talking about? But, yeah, it's. It's called that's what Heroes Do.
- [05:17]
Charlie Sykes
We're all doing weird things.
- [05:19]
Adam Kinzinger
I know we are. It's called that's what Heroes Do. And the gist of the story is Christian and his dad. Christian happens to be my son's name, and his dad also happens to be a pilot. But they take a journey around the country to meet up with real life heroes. And so you can kind of see where that, you know, story, the arc of it. There's, you know, I even read the audiobook for it, and I had a hard time getting through a certain part of it because a buddy of mine that was killed in Iraq, we go and visit him in Arlington. And, you know, that that was tough to get through. But the gist of it is, you know, kids every day can be heroes. And, you know, not in a cheap way. Not like, oh, if you take out the trash, you're a hero, but just in, in character traits. Because one of the things I've struggled with, as you implied here, is, you know, anybody under the age of 30 probably has not paid. Not anybody. But normal people under the age of 30 have not paid attention to politics since Donald Trump has been in our life, you know, before that period. They only know since. And, you know, politics has become so crude. We're dehumanizing people. You know, we're bombing boats in the Caribbean, and we don't care because they're bad people. Even though it reflects poorly on us as Americans. So it's like, how do you push back against that big narrative? Because I think kids are influenced so much by what is like out there in the, in the ecosystem. And so I had this idea of the book. It comes out May 5, but it's up for pre order now, and pre orders are really important, as, you know, so I'd encourage people to, to get it. It's very well illustrated. But the biggest point is it's showing kids that being a hero doesn't mean you have to charge into a battlefield or even a Burning, building. It's character traits. And that is something that we're just not talking about right now. We're not. We're not ingraining in people. Character is seen as weakness, Charlie. I mean, you know, there's this new guy, clavicle.
- [07:17]
Charlie Sykes
I guess character is seen as weakness.
- [07:19]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. It's this new guy, like, out there that's doing this thing called look, maxing. I wrote about this recently where it's all about physical appearance, like, kindness and empathy.
- [07:30]
Charlie Sykes
Look, maxing.
- [07:30]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, it's so weird. It's seen as, like, weakness and care and. And physical traits are seen as strength, and that's something we have to push back on because we are destroying. And I'm not even not exaggerating and saying this. We are creating a generational trauma of people that are going to keep the counseling profession well employed in the future if we're telling them that their physical traits are the things that matter and character doesn't.
- [07:53]
Charlie Sykes
You know, there are two things that, you know, in terms of inculcating character. And as you point out, you know, I think young people look for examp and they're moved by stories. You know, I can't tell you the number of biographies I've met. I've read of extraordinary individuals who talk about how a story or an example inspired them and helped shape their lives. Now, there also are negative role models, people who say, I don't want to be like that. But this used to be something that we took very, very seriously. And this is part of the irony, because I can remember, you know, when I back in the before times, and I'm talking about, like, the 1990s, when there was a mantra among, not just the right, but I think sort of the common sense universe out there that you evaluate everything from the point of view of what message are we sending our kids if we make this decision, what example are we setting? And that's just become blown up. And I remember writing something, I think, back in 2016, saying, you know, I mean, you have parents out there who are trying to teach their kids, you know, sportsmanship and respect and decency and why it's important to be honest in an age where all they have to do is turn on their phone or turn on the television and see how those things are just mocked have been rejected. So what are some of the character traits that you talk about in this book? Without giving away all the plot.
- [09:21]
Adam Kinzinger
The plot. Give away the plot. It's a deep one. No, look, it's. It's things like, you know, helping you know, at the end of the book you find out that the, the hero of. Of Christian is actually his friend who kind of through the book you see they in the book weirdly, you know, I think it's weird. She's always so helpful. She's always helping people. And you see that kind of trait, you, you go around and you see a guy who I modeled based off my father, who worked with the homeless, right. And you see school teachers and firemen and women and. And so it's showing people that both in their profession, you know, put others first, but also in their personal life, put others first. And you know, you talk about the power of story. And this is just this morning, you know, when I had 30 minutes. I end up, you know how you go down your 30 minute rabbit hole of you see the news and the next thing you know you're reading about purple monkeys somewhere and is my life. I was on the Story of the Band and brother of the Band of Brothers, you know, and remember the HBO series so powerful. And I remember I was reading about Lt. Spears and in that Band of Brothers series and this really happened in real life. He went up to a soldier that couldn't pull his trigger and was kind of cowarding. And he goes, you know, Private Blythe, your problem is that you have hope. And I now this is going to sound bad, but it ends up remember this. He goes, your problem is you have hope. You need to realize that you're already dead. The second you come to grips with the fact that you're already dead, the better. You can operate as a soldier. All war depends on it. And the point there is like, once you make the decision to give your life physically in that case, but also to give of your life, that's when you can operate as the best human being or the best person you're supposed to be. You know, I went through a situation in the streets of Milwaukee on North Avenue, which, you know, well, you know, where a guy was murdering his girlfriend. And I thought that would cost me my life. And my life changed after that because again, once you make a decision, everything after that is like bonus and extra credit. And so while we don't get into warfare, in my children's book, that'll be the next book. You know, the re. The. The message to young people is. And by the way to parents, look, you are surrounded by this culture that says it's all about physical beauty. Again, we're like 1930s Germany once again. But where you can make a difference is in your own child's life. You don't have to rely on society to raise your kid for you. You can, you should. And when back and it will come back into vogue, kindness and empathy and stuff like that. Make sure your kid is on the leading edge of that and it's not a foreign thing to them.
- [11:59]
Charlie Sykes
What's the name of the book again?
- [12:01]
Adam Kinzinger
It's called that's what Heroes do, and it's, it's out May 5th. But like I said, it's up for preorder now, so would definitely encourage people to get it now and you'll love it. I, like I said, I started doing this project. I'm kind of like, how is this going to go? I couldn't be more proud of the product. It's really amazing.
- [12:16]
Charlie Sykes
Well, you know, you mentioned that incident in Milwaukee and you know, it's one of those incidents that the guys like me think about, which is like, how would I behave under those circumstances? And I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you and I have talked about it before. I watched your movie where you talked about it and you know, it is that, that, that question that when you're faced with a choice, what do you do? And sometimes, and you don't know until that moment comes, but it's all about a lifetime of values and who you are and what you have done. And you know, young people are going to face all kinds of choices in their lives and, and it's that moment they're going to say, okay, who do I want to be? How do I want to think of myself? What is my legacy going to be? Whatever. And so that's why this is so important. I mean, so some of these values can be, you can talk about them and they may not bear fruit for decades, but eventually they will, I think.
- [13:16]
Adam Kinzinger
I think, yeah. I mean, look, I, I was raised how I was raised, I think, well, obviously in, in my mind and you know, that led to the situation in Milwaukee. I would also give some credit to the military for that. Not in my, you know, ninjutsu skills, but just in how you think through things. But then that then transferred, I think, honestly into my decision not to go along with Donald Trump on January 6, because, you know, at the point you're willing to give your life, and I'm not trying to be dramatic or heroic in this. I'm not. But at the point you make that decision, then every other kind of decision that's going to cost seems less in comparison. And honestly, Charlie, looking back both at that, but then the votes I took in Congress where I would only be one or two Republicans voting for a certain bill, the Violence Against Women act as an example, those actually end up being the votes I was most proud of because I knew that if I was willing to stand alone and take a vote alone, I knew that that was a reflection of my character. You know, if I voted, you know, for tax reform, which I did, that doesn't reflect my character, reflects that I was voting kind of along party lines. But voting for the Violence Against Women act, which for whatever reason the Republicans were opposing, that shows that that's a value I believe in, that I'm worth, you know, I'm willing to put myself in isolation over. And it's you don't have to be in Congress, you don't have to be in combat. But that situation will come to everybody. And whether you're working at IBM or anywhere,
- [14:49]
GNC Host
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- [16:06]
Charlie Sykes
okay, let's switch gears because we have so much ground to cover and I want to start off with foreign affairs. I know you've been watching all of this. What did you make of what happened in Munich with the Munich Security conference? Because I am watching a lot of people sort of trying to sanewash Marco Rubio and my sense is that we have been beaten up so Much that anytime daddy doesn't come home drunk and beat up Mommy, it's like, everything is great again. So your thoughts about. And I want to get to Lindsey Graham as well. Lindsey Graham's weird moment with the Danes. But let's start off with Marco Rubio. Your take.
- [16:42]
Adam Kinzinger
You had a really good conversation. I think it was with Susan Glass or. And yeah, about. About Munich. And it was spot on. I'm in a group of people that are like kind of formers, former congressmen, former parliamentarians, presidents of countries. This is a signal group. And then, you know, some intelligence folks and whatever. And, you know, we're kind of the realist, center right, center left version of the defense establishment. And every one of our takes, including mine, was Munich was a disaster. You put Marco Rubio in there, right? And they're like, oh, good, he wasn't J.D. vance. He didn't call, you know, Europe a piece of s. Okay, well, fine. But he also did double down on American values being not important anymore, or American values having changed, or it's all about self interest. I gotta tell you, man, I. I know, you know, plenty of people in the military, Charlie, and there's not a single person I know that would be willing to die for the material wealth of this country, including me. I would not have given my life or been willing to give my life for the United States of America, for greater access to oil or Donald Trump's wealth. I did it for values. I was willing to fight for values. That is the thing that compels people. And for Marco Rubio, who knows better, and I think his soul is on fire inside. It's gotta be. Unless he literally had none. But I think he has to have. I thought Munich was a disaster. Worse than, frankly, even Vance's speech, because it gave false hope to people. People at a time when Europe is starting to find its sea legs and recognize that the United States is not going to be there for it and is making tough decisions and is, you know, investing and spending money and building their defense establishment. Instead, they got this, like, hit of heroin that allows them to take a fake deep breath because they now think that the United States isn't abandoning them. I'm sorry, we are. I wish we weren't. I'm a huge advocate, as you know, for America's role in the world, but I also am a realist. This is what's happening. I thought it was a disaster.
- [18:51]
Charlie Sykes
Okay? So I agree with you and this whole idea that people don't die for abstractions and all of this sort of thing. And I actually saw people say it was somewhat Reagan esque. And I thought only someone who's totally forgotten what Ronald Reagan said would think that what Marco Rubio was saying in Munich was Reagan esque. Can I just read you something? I know you've known this, but you mentioned the Band of Brothers, and try to imagine any member of the Trump administration saying this. Ronald Reagan went back to the, what was it, the 50th. It was the 40th anniversary of the Normandy invasion on D Day. And he tells this very eloquent story of the Rangers who were scaling the heights and everything. And, you know, and he asked, why did you do this? Why did you risk your lives? Why did you, you know, go, go into all of this? And he said that there's a profound moral difference between the use of force for liberation and the use of force for conquest. You were here to liberate, not to conquer. And so you and those others did not doubt your cause. And you were right not to doubt. And here's the paragraph. You all knew that some things are worth dying for. One's country is worth dying for, and democracy is worth dying for because it is the most deeply honorable form of government ever devised by man. All of you loved liberty. All of you were willing to fight tyranny, and you knew the people of your countries were behind you.
- [20:18]
Adam Kinzinger
And, you know, what's amazing about that, Charlie, is, you know, when we think of World War II and D Day, you think of all the old guys, right? You think of the black and white pictures and then old guys. When he was giving that speech, These guys were 60, right. They were still generally in the prime of their life and, you know, and living lives and raising. Probably some of them starting to have grandkids. And, well, that generation, they're probably on great grandkids by then.
- [20:44]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, it was 1984.
- [20:45]
Jerry/Vanta Advertiser
Right.
- [20:46]
Adam Kinzinger
But they, you know, I, I, yes, that is exactly it. It's, you know, we look back on World War I and World War II, and I think, although we were on the side of the good guys in World War I, we take more pride in World War II because World War II was clearly much more of an ideological struggle. Again, we did the right thing in World War I, but World War II, we were fighting Nazism, we were fighting Imperial Japan. We, you know, 6 million Jews and countless others by Stalin, honestly, that were killed. And we were intervening on the side of justice, even though we temporarily aligned with Stalin. And, and, and it. Is that the kind. That's the thing that Gives you a warmth in your heart about your country and gives you pride in your country and gives you a willingness to go and defend your country. If, if this became, you know, the United States went to war in Europe because we wanted to take away France from the Germans and keep it for ourselves. Honest to God. There's not, I mean, people would join the military for money, they would go fight for money, but they would not be as good of soldiers because all they're doing at that point is fighting for a paycheck and not for a cause.
- [21:56]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, yeah, very different.
- [21:58]
Adam Kinzinger
Fighting for a cause, fighting for ideas, fighting for other people is the highest call, man. The Bible itself says, what greater love is this than a man give his life for his friends and not that a man give his life for territorial conquest. Not that a man give his life for oil. Not that a man give his life to unravel, you know, boats in the, in the Caribbean. A man give his life for other people. And to, to watch that disintegrate. The thing I worry about is that was a flame that was alive in the heart of America for 250 years that is being extinguished. Extinguished. And I don't know how to necessarily relight that flame once we experienced a taste of who gives a rass ats about other people? This is America. Put up the walls and let's make Donald Trump rich.
- [22:48]
Charlie Sykes
I worry about that too. Ronald Reagan gave that speech on the 40th anniversary of D Day and that was in 1984. It was, I was just doing the math. 25 years later in. And this is one of my best memories from the before times. 25 years later I was part of the Honor Flight program taking the veterans ofWorld to DC to see their memorial. So I got to meet a lot of these guys and they were in their 80s and their 90s then. And you know, these words were sort of ringing in my head. These were ordinary guys who by the way, did not come back and brag about, talk about what they had done. I cannot tell you the number of these guys who said this was the first time that they had talked about their experiences in World War II. I mean, to me they just embodied the price that we had paid for this country. And the embodied honor and the contrast with what was happening really was so powerful in what was happening. Okay. Also in Munich though, very, very strange story about Lindsey Graham. Oh God, the Danish newspapers are all over this. Apparently in a closed door meeting. I don't know whether he was jet lagged, drunk, whatever, apparently was just insulting and degrading to officials from Greenland and Denmark. In fact, to the point where the Danish media is saying, is Lindsey Graham in his right mind? He's basically saying, Donald Trump's the most powerful man in the world, you know, who gives a shit who owns Greenland and everything? And it was apparently just a humiliating moment for the country and a reminder of what the phrase the ugly American look like. I don't know what Lindsey Graham is going through, but he is not improving with age. You read those reports?
- [24:24]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. In my 12 years in Congress, I went through a period like this, if I'm being honest. And everybody I know has gone through some period where you go through a bit of depression that you don't recognize as depression, and so you drink a little too much. And, you know, you can kind of look back on a period of, of. I can look back on a period of my time and, yeah, of my time in Congress and just be like, yeah, I was hitting the bottle too hard. I was depressed for whatever reason. And when you come out of those moments, you can see it with clarity, but not when you're in it. And I think Lindsay's. And I'm, I'm being dead serious with this. I think Lindsay's going through a moment like this, and he did the Fox News hit in which either medicated, but certainly sounded drunk to me. I've got to imagine, because I. And I'll. I'll. I'll return to this. Like, I had traveled with Lindsay Graham. I know him well. So I'll go back to that in a second to say, I think when you are. When you know something is wrong in your soul and you have forced yourself to make compromises with it, this is the result. You get. You get anger. You project your anger that you have at yourself outward on other people, because they are triggering that anger in you. You know, what Donald Trump is doing is wrong. But you're going to attack the Danes without even consciously realizing it, because they're making you feel bad for what you know is wrong. So it must be their fault.
- [25:49]
Charlie Sykes
That's very insightful.
- [25:50]
Adam Kinzinger
And I say that because I traveled many times with, with Lindsey Graham, you know, back when he and McCain were close. I was very close with McCain as well. I was kind of like the young guy he brought in under his wing. And he would, we would travel together and he'd kind of show me how good he is at diplomacy. And honestly, Lindsey Graham was like his kind of protege. I mean, and Lindsey Graham was great at diplomacy. We would meet with Saudi Arabia, or we'd go to Egypt, or we'd go to Hungary. And Lindsey Graham would be very diplomatic, but he would also be very hard on, you know, Viktor Orban and that kind of stuff. That has changed. And, and we. I mean, we would leave these trips and, and you would feel like they just got a visit it from the US Secretary of State when Lindsey Graham was there. He has become a caricature of himself. And this is a man who is unmarried, has basically dedicated his entire life to being a U.S. senator, and, and has had to change who he is to survive because that is his identity. When your job becomes your identity, you. Well, it's very dangerous. And I think that's what we're seeing in Lindsey Graham. He did a shame to the United States of America. He's ashamed to himself now. And again, it actually does break my heart because I had some great times traveling with him, and I thought we did some really good work back in the day.
- [27:12]
Charlie Sykes
It is tragic because I can remember as recently as 2016, when he was running for president, he was actually quite funny. Yeah, he was actually probably the most entertaining of all of the candidates. He was the one guy that would say something that was different than the yada, yada, yada. And by the way, his critique of Donald Trump was dead on back in 2016. Okay, so. So one more question on foreign policy. And again, I want to note to the listeners that we are taping this, but by the time you hear us taping this, we might be at war with Iran. And so I apologize for that.
- [27:45]
Adam Kinzinger
If you're walking around in a nuclear wasteland right now eating a dog. I'm sorry, this hadn't happened yet.
- [27:53]
Charlie Sykes
Oh, God. So as we are moving all of these assets into the Persian Gulf and people are saying there's, it's like Iraq war level thing. Couple of things strike me if you sort of step back, is number one, usually when we're edging closer to war, the country is being aroused. A case is being made for White to do this. There is debate, there is preparation. Before even the wars that turn out to be terrible, terrible mistakes, there was widespread debate and discussion and why we needed to go into Afghanistan, why we needed to topple Saddam Hussein the first time, the second time, all of that, none of that is happening right now. There is no case being made from the White House or from anyone why we should go to war with Iran. That's number one. And number two, even more basic, there's no indication that Congress will play any role whatsoever in the United States going into what could be a major conflict, much more complicated than the, the one and done failed bombing from last year. What do you think?
- [29:01]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, this is, and there's only one institution that's to blame for this. Donald Trump in this case is not to blame. I mean, he is, but it's, it's, it's Congress. And yeah, you know, the founding fathers always knew Donald Trump was going to come along. They always knew it and probably they would have been surprised it didn't happen earlier. What they never assumed was that Congress would so willingly roll over for, for him. They built, you know, jealous branches, jealous institutions. So there would be friction, there would be exactly what I hated about Congress, but that was exactly what was intended to be, which was slow moving, real debate, you know, real compromise, etc. And when Congress makes a decision to roll over and not challenge what a President's doing, that is tacit approval. I mean, it really is like, okay, well, if the President is claiming he's Commander in Chief and he wants to bomb Iran and we're not going to do anything that. But through. There's two big mechanisms. The War Powers act, which I have issues with, but regardless, it is the, it is the law. And the other one is just the spending. They could pass a bill tonight that says no funds can be expended to, you know, go to war with Iraq, with Iran without coming to us for approval. They simply refuse to do that. And then, and this is how the Supreme Court views this is right and wrong in a way, but they look at it and say, well, if Congress is giving that power up, then that is Congress's decision to give up. Up. I disagree, but I also see the point. So, yeah, and where the White House is obviously wrong is they should be going to Congress, but they also should be making the case to the American people if, in fact this is what they intend to do. You would think, yeah, it's your sons and daughters going to war. What I worry about here, and I'm mixed on this, right. If it was a different administration, I'd probably be a little more supportive. I just don't trust this one. But I also think Iran is among the worst regimes in the world. And honestly, the Ayatollah is going to die soon anyway, which means there will be regime change. So is it better if it's under the United States or not? I mean, but what I worry about is as a advocate for air power, somebody who flew planes for the military, there is a limit to what air power can do. I Mean, you can blow up toys, you can blow up stuff, you can kill people with some limitations, but you can't occupy territory. And that is why I hope if they are planning to do this, it's either a limited target set, which is we are going to basically rehit the nuclear and missile infrastructure and then let, let it happen, or, you know, there's some other plan here. But my guess is, honestly, Charlie is probably the US Would be providing air power, Israel would be probably assassinating leaders of the regime, and then you'd kind of leave it to the Iranian people to take care of after that.
- [31:56]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I was cynical enough in the middle of the week after Prince Andrew was arrested by the Brits and you got the sense of the blast radius of the Epstein files going on, I said to my wife, I said, you know who the biggest loser is today? And she ran through the usual suspects that I said, no. Iran.
- [32:13]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, the Ayatollah.
- [32:15]
Charlie Sykes
If Donald Trump is feeling the footsteps coming, what are we gonna do? Okay, we're gonna bomb Iran. We're gonna do something with Iran.
- [32:22]
Adam Kinzinger
Can I say, actually, can I just say one quick thing about that though is, and this is an important point we learn as we get into higher ranking officers, which is the idea of like kind of war, I can't think of the word, but it's like kind of synergy or like whatever. It's basically the idea of a snowball rolling downhill and getting bigger and bigger once you put the assets in place. And this was a problem George W. Faced when he had some doubts before the launch of OIF Iraqi Freedom in 2003, is, we already have all these assets in place. What are you going to back down now?
- [32:56]
Charlie Sykes
And that is you can't waste them.
- [32:58]
Adam Kinzinger
That's a concern. Correct?
- [32:59]
Charlie Sykes
No. I read many years ago, read a book called Dreadnought, I think it was by Massey, who talked about the beginning of World War I and all of the great powers were building these giant, giant, giant battleships. And I think one of the themes that was running through that at a certain point is like, well, we've created these massive war machines, we're going to use them right.
- [33:17]
Adam Kinzinger
As well.
- [33:18]
Charlie Sykes
Which is always a little, a little bit terrifying. Okay, so at the end of the week as we're going back and like, what have we not talked about? The story that would have consumed Washington D.C. would have consumed American politics a few years ago, Donald Trump's ongoing corruption, the fact that they are making no pretense that this is not, you know, graft and grift. On an industrial scale. And again, you know, where. Where do you actually even start with all of that? But so let's put that aside for the moment. I want to get your take on this. Donald Trump has clearly escalated dramatically, both his rhetoric and some of the deployment of federal assets to affect elections. Now, I know there's a tendency out there, people saying, oh, you know, he's just trolling you liberals. He's just trying to trigger you. This is, you know, just Donald Trump talking about nationalizing elections. You have legislation in Congress the Republicans are buying into. You have the reports of that ICE agents are going to be surrounding voting booths. New York Times had a lead story the other day about the Trump administration really escalating this. You know, the push to go after, you know, illegal immigrants who are voting, which is not a big thing. What's happening in Georgia seems to be on the front burner. He's going down to Georgia. He has revived the big lie, the debunk lies. So I want to take their temperature on all of this. How alarming is all this? How much of this is just Donald Trump panicking or playing, throwing stuff up against the wall, and how much of it is an indication that he fully intends to change all the rules or kick over all the rules in the midterm elections? I mean, how many alarms are ringing here?
- [35:11]
Adam Kinzinger
I describe this as, I am not losing sleep on this, but I am genuinely concerned, right? The reason I say I don't lose sleep is because the actual institution themselves, the election. I don't think he can federalize an election. There's not going to be hacking, Right? But where he can make the difference is on those margins, deploying ice. Most importantly, convince. And this is the thing that I think we don't talk enough about is convincing his base that elections were once again stolen. I mean, a number of people, Charlie, really believe that elections were stolen in 2020. And if you believe that, then all of a sudden you believe that, that, and. And you believe it's done again. I mean, it's just a matter of who knows how long until violence is a direct result of that.
- [36:05]
Charlie Sykes
Right?
- [36:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Because when people truly believe that, right? I mean, we fought a revolution over this, and we're proud of that, by the way. So that's where I get really concerned about. I think Donald Trump would wave a magic wand and cancel the elections if he could. He can't, but I think he would. So that's why I'm very concerned. When I say I don't lose sleep, it's not Saying I'm not concerned. It's just like, like if I have to pick one thing to lose sleep about, it's not this. But I think we need to be on our guard about this. And this is why a blue wave is so important. Because if this was kind of a 50 plus 1 to 49 election, then I think they could completely change the outcome of the election. You put ICE in predominantly Hispanic areas, for instance, it doesn't mean now illegals are not going to vote. It's going to mean legals that don't want to be harassed last may not vote. Right. And even if it's a half a percent of a suppression, these elections are sometimes decided by a few hundred votes. So this is a big deal.
- [37:04]
Charlie Sykes
It is a big deal.
- [37:05]
Adam Kinzinger
Again, the bigger deal to me is just building into this narrative that the system is broken and, and what does that lead to ultimately in this country? Democracy cannot survive if you don't play by the rules or if you convince half of the country that the rules don't exist. Cuz that is the only thing you need for self governance. But that is an essential for self governance.
- [37:28]
Charlie Sykes
So what I think needs to be the real concern is that if Trump is in fact, look, there's no question about it that Trump is obsessed with not losing the midterm elections. I think he understands that's kind of the end of his, you know, Trump 2.0 or much of it, and that he's prepared to do anything. And we constantly need to remind people, unfortunately, that this is the man who has already tried to violently overturn an election.
- [37:56]
Adam Kinzinger
Right.
- [37:56]
Charlie Sykes
Anytime you ask the question, what is possible? What might he do? I think the immediate answer would be, well, what has he already done? What has he already showed us he could do? He actually fomented a violent. Can't believe I'm telling you this. I mean, as you know, this violent. We all saw this, the nation saw this. You were on a committee that documented it. The Department of Justice documented it was. And yet the American people returned him to power and the Supreme Court immunized him. Is Donald Trump capable of using power to overturn an election? Absolutely. He already tried to do it. Now he controls the federal government, he stocked it with loyalists, he's got his own private police forces. I think it's incredibly naive to think that he would not do something. But your point about this is where you get the violence and, and again, this is now just in terms of sort of thought experiment for people who are not on the right. What is the reaction to the belief that democracy no longer works. What if you did believe that in fact the government was illegitimate? How does that change the attitude toward violence? Now I understand people go, violence is never acceptable. Well, the American Revolution was violent. You know, there are moments at which if the Democrat. What is the alternative to a democratic process and the rule of law? If you break them down and I'm sorry, this is what is so terrible. All right, so let's talk a little bit more about elections. Texas politics has become extraordinarily interesting lately, hasn't it?
- [39:30]
Adam Kinzinger
It has, it has. Look, there's a Senate race here that could go anywhere. And I try to stay out of Texas politics, but a few races I pay attention to now that I live here. And the Senate race is extremely interesting. So there's this James Talarico who is well spoken, kind of, he's a pastor, got a lot of YouTube fame. Still politician in my mind. Right. But you know, very well spoken Jasmine Crockett, very firebrand. I think Talarico has the best shot among, you know, to win the general. The Republican side. You have John Cornyn, who's your kind of standard, you know, Republican fair. If I had to pick out of the people running, he'd be the one I'd pick. But I don't intend to vote Republican. Paxton, who's just bat s crazy and then, you know, Hunt, who is basically a Paxton wannabe anyway, so that is ser. I mean, there is a re. That's going to be a real horse race in Texas. Obviously, the Republicans come in with an advantage, but this is a chance in a blue wave that Democrats could win that seat for the first time. Texas 9 is one that's interesting to me.
- [40:42]
Charlie Sykes
So, so congressional.
- [40:44]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, congressional. As you know, the Texas, you know, redrew this mid cycle redistricting which launched this whole battle that actually the Republicans are losing nationwide, which is amazing. But not only are they going to lose the battle nationwide, they may actually, it may backfire on them in Texas because they drew the numbers believing that Hispanics were going to turn out at the same numbers they turned out for Trump in 2024. The polls are saying that's not the case. Texas 9. Somebody who's actually a friend of mine, his name is Terry Verts, he's running. He's a former astronaut. He was the commander of the US space or of the International Space Station. F16 pilot, Colonel in the Air Force.
- [41:25]
Charlie Sykes
Impressive.
- [41:26]
Adam Kinzinger
Speaks to blue collar, raised blue collar. If he wins and it's a crowded ish primary, if he can win that primary, he will, I, I believe win that House race. And that is one of the five seats that they were counting on going Republican. And there's probably a few others like that. Actually, Terry was endorsed by the Houston Chronicle and then also today there are a few days ago was listed by the Houston Chronicle as the number one quality Democrat running in Texas and said, you know, he speaks to blue collar,
- [41:58]
Charlie Sykes
really, he should be running for Senate.
- [42:00]
Adam Kinzinger
He should be, yeah. And he considered it. And then, you know, he was swamped by these big name folks and, and, but I think regardless what happens here, he's got a bright political future. But that's the kind of thing. And Texas Democrats are fairly decent at thinking through the long game because they're used to being in the minority. It's kind of like how Republicans in Illinois used to be. They wouldn't know to put up moderate candidates. Republicans in Illinois are now crazier than they've ever been, by the way.
- [42:26]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, no, they, they really went off the, off the deep end. So on, on, on, on Texas. I know it's too early to tell, but, and I should always define these terms, I shouldn't assume that everybody knows it, but the Streisand effect is, which is that the Streisand effect is you call attention, you bring something up and you end up inadvertently calling way more attention to it than you originally did. The whole CBS Colbert thing, which we don't need to relitigate, but clearly was a boost to James Talarico because by pushing that interview off the Colbert show, off the late night show, they pushed it onto YouTube. And as far as I can tell, probably something like twice as many people watch James Talarico on YouTube than they did. He's getting a ton of money, getting a ton of boost. Does that change the dynamic of that race? Because he was trailing Jasmine Crockett in some of the original polls, is that going to be enough to put him over the top or give me some sense of how that's playing?
- [43:24]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, I don't know if it'll be enough to put him over the top, but it's certainly going to help him and it's a very close race. So most likely, yes. Which now he's got the money. He's been doing well on money, but what that showed is that Donald Trump is, you know, truth or not, behind it. The reality is it looks like because Donald Trump is scared of Talarico and he is smart to push that message out there. And, and I think Donald Trump, between frankly, Jasmine Crockett and Talarico is probably more afraid of Talarico in Texas and would be. And. Yeah. And so I think, I think that is that Streisand effect. It's going to be very beneficial to him. It also, again, just makes Trump look as small as he is. And Brendan Carr, who I knew, the chairman of the FCC look as small as he is. So I think that's going to make a bit of a difference. And it is going to be a tight race, though. I mean, there's a lot of black Democrats in Texas. Obviously they, Jasmine Crockett, they, they lean towards her, but they are very smart voters in terms of the pragmatism technique or the, the tactics of it. And so we'll see what ends up happening there. But, but it's gonna be a tight race for sure. And the Colbert thing is definitely gonna make a bit of a difference.
- [44:34]
Charlie Sykes
Okay, one last question. It's kind of amazing. We're a week into the government shut, a partial government shutdown, defunding of DHS over restrictions with ice. Talk to me about what's happened with ice. They pulled out of Minneapolis with their tail between their legs. But I'm not sure that Tom Homan is the kinder and gentler face that the Trump administration wants to think that he. We are getting more and more stories about the abuse of families of children. So give me some sense about that and how you think Democrats are handling the whole question of ice.
- [45:12]
Adam Kinzinger
So Holman is basically the same. It's just he doesn't wear an SS jacket, so. Right.
- [45:17]
Charlie Sykes
Like there's an upgrade.
- [45:18]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, that's a bit of an upgrade.
- [45:20]
Charlie Sykes
Does not overtly dress up as a Nazi. Okay, good.
- [45:23]
Adam Kinzinger
Exactly. I look, clearly ICE was defeated in Minneapolis and I think it's important to point out the amazing job that the. I don't know if the term resistance is a good one to use, but that the opposition did up there, which is you stayed peaceful even after two of your people were murdered. It really, you know, you look back to the civil rights era and it is the nonviolent protests that made the difference. Not the explosive devices. It was the non violence. And, and that's what we're seeing here. And it's great credit because what they expected was these ANTIFA Summer of 2020, you know, burned down the city things, in which case the American people will turn against you. And that didn't happen. I think there is legitimately pretty solid negotiation going on between the two because you're not hearing a lot of, of details come out that usually tells me, as somebody that's been in negotiations like this, this, that both sides are serious about coming to a conclusion. I think the, the, The White House, you know, I guess I'll give them a little credit. They recognize that they have a PR issue on their hand. I wouldn't be surprised if body cameras and the mass thing goes away.
- [46:38]
Charlie Sykes
That's an insane debate. Yeah.
- [46:40]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah. Democrats are handling this really well.
- [46:43]
Charlie Sykes
Okay.
- [46:44]
Adam Kinzinger
And I know we crap on Democrats a lot.
- [46:46]
Charlie Sykes
You do.
- [46:47]
Adam Kinzinger
And they deserve it. But, but they are doing a fantastic job in this, which is. It took a little stiffening of Schumer's spine, a little bit Jeffrey spine to fight the first government shutdown as hard and as long as they did. And they won that. I mean, they won, period. Now they're coming into this having just won, in essence, the same battle after two American civilians were shot and killed. They are in the catbird seat times 10 here. And I think they should hold out as long as the demands are realistic. Right. You're not. Don't demand defund all of ice. Come on, let's be realistic. But the things you can make a change, they're going to win that, too. I will give Democratic leaders credit because I think they're fighting the good fight. Just don't give up. Don't give up.
- [47:36]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. I, I've been surprised over the last couple of weeks watching how their messaging actually has become very, very focused and I think more effective. And I think they've resisted the temptation to go for sort of the bright, shiny objects. Defund police, abolish ice. Although I certainly understand the attraction of them because I think ice is very, very difficult to reform. Adam Kinzinger, it is great talking with you and looking forward to getting together sometime this weekend in D.C. at that principal's first conference. Thank you so much for your time today.
- [48:09]
Adam Kinzinger
Yeah, you bet. Let's have a beer. I'll catch you then.
- [48:12]
Charlie Sykes
And thank you all for listening to this episode of to the Contrary podcast. I'm Charlie Sykes. We continue to do this week after week after week, because week after week, we need to continually remind ourselves that we are not the crazy ones. Thank you, Foreign. Here's how to stay alive longer so
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